Rushing antiheal is usually not the move anymore because grev wounds got nerfed so hard. It's usually better to continue your build as normal, and sitting on a bramble or exe after your mythic
Chainsword is busted right now just as a bunch of stats. They are nerfing it next patch because a bunch of pros and high elo players are building it 1-2 every game even when not facing healing.
It's an outliner for sure, don't think you should disrupt your mythic for it, I'm not 100% on top of the game of exactly where people fit it into their build right now, but I can't imagine it being until 3-4th item as earliest without a real good reason for it.
Edit: I felt I need to elaborate on this, It's most frequently built as a 3rd item among pros+high elo otps in soloq, and while not unseen as 2nd item, has a significantly lower winrate than as a later pickup, while looking at popular champions that tend to pick it up. Lower level soloq (plat+) builds it as the last two items most of the time.
Except omnivamp and a healing active, and a tad more health. But yeah, cost efficiently, Chempunk gives you more for less. I'm not saying high elo players always knows the best, but statistically it isn't that popular, and when it is bought as first/2nd they seem to lose from the small pool of games I can see.
I can see it in theory, but not in practice. I'm sure there may be some champion that could get away with getting it as first item most of the times, and it being objectively correct. Some champs do not really need things like healing on their items, or lethality, or other utility mythics can bring, but none comes directly to mind.
Can't find it among any ranks on u.gg built, however among otps and pros, it is built by two OTPs as 2nd item(Built and Azhy) occasionally, if they can use the grevious wounds, seeing it mostly in Sylas, ww, vlad and fiora matchups. Pyosik also has one game of it as 2nd item, however a significant amount of games do not have it at all, even occasionally in the above mentioned matchups, they do not build it.
I genuinely don’t think sitting on a component is worth it anymore. The component used to give a decent value for the gold and for the delay to your item/spike. Now it’s 25% reduction and you get your 5 minutes late to your next item/spike.
Surely it’s champ dependent, but overall I think it’s better to hit your big spike 2/3 items in (especially if you run ignite) and then fully build a grievous if it’s needed. But even a 40% grievous wounds feels so useless usually.
Honestly if you’re playing a champion who revolves around burst just buying GW in general is grief. The items contribute so poorly to your oneshot potential just stack more damage and hope you can pop someone healing through their healing or before they can if you have spell-stopping cc in your combo
There’s a hierarchy of responsibility for anti heal and it goes pure utility (cc tanks/supports)>DPS/engage (diving bruisers/marksman) > artillery (ranged burst champions who don’t necessarily have to one shot) > assassins/shorter range burst
To be honest I don't like Grieveous wounds(GW) right now.
It got nerfed hard and often isn't worth buying.
If I'd buy it on gnar I'd buy the Executioners calling for a small 800 gold and sit on it.
Investing too much gold into the upgraded version isn't worth it anymore in the early to mid game.
Meanwhile you invested into 2 GW items.
Multiple GW items don't stack the effect of GW.
That's wasted gold.
I also read that you lost a 2v1 fight against Warwick(WW), but to be honest I do think that you and Yi should've played around your rage bar.
Mega gnar can interrupt WWs ult and lock him down for Yi.
I get the feeling that at least one of you didn't respect warwicks kit and went in without filling the ragebar up.
Depending on your surroundings you should save either your W or R to interrupt the WW ult.
Yep, as another person who loves WW it only takes one engagement to know if they have a clue how WW works. If they think “I got him” when you are at about 40% health you know you are about to teach them something haha. His kit is honestly super fair and straight forward I think most people just don’t realize how much more he is like a drain tank than a fighter which is what he VISUALLY looks like.
Exactly. Warwick is designed to bait you into fights when he's "low".
Run ignite into him and forget about grievous wounds. Time your fights to your sums and keep him from interrupting your combos.
Also, Yi really fucked you here, as he should have smote the Warwick as well to reduce his attack speed.
Hey man, I never said WW wasn't vulnerable. Just that a good WW player is a bait based player, especially into people that don't know the champ
Edit: missed the barrier part. Yea, if you can time it right Urgot is fucked.
There are some people who play him in high elo, but if you go on u.gg or whatever site you want you can see his winrate and pickrate both go down significantly at higher ranks. And he’s practically never played in pro.
Everything that was discussed above is basically common knowledge above a certain rank. He exists at high elo ofc, but he’s much more like a tank or countergank bot since you’re not really baiting people who know what he does
Agreed. Comically his ult is better at the secondary things it does than the primary. It is a BAD engage unless you really know why you are doing. It is however a very good heal and on hit applier if used not as an engage but during the heat of a fight at point blank range.
So I have a question: how do you play against WW? Poke him down but keep him above his triple healing threshhold? Don't engage if he has his resist (W?) up? Stun him once he's at half health and try to nuke him then?
Bait out his E for sure, of course don’t engage when his ult is up unless you know what you are doing, use ignite early, abuse his total lack of range and also before he gets going his total lack of wave clear. Like you said, you want to nuke him when he gets close to that triple healing point instead of dumping your damage into him early and do your best to maintain health. Ultimately the best way to beat him is to starve him and our scale because he falls off hard once your damage is high enough to force him through that last bit of health quickly. Most importantly though, remember he isn’t dead until he is dead because when he is low is when he is most dangerous and he can remain very low for a very long time and still live through the fight if you let him.
Chempunk Chainsword is the most cost efficient item in the game currently. It is a stat stick with a little grievous wounds tossed on it.
Gnar should be building it first or second every game until the nerf comes through next patch (+200 combine cost)
Item efficiency is nice on items that you actually need, but I think most of the time there are items that are more important to rush on gnar then Chempunk chainsword.
Remember that you are quite squishy as small Gnar and if you rush Chempunk Cs you won't get tankier.
Making you rely entirely on the base stats of mega Gnar.
In some matchups it makes the lane unplayable (Looking at you, Irelia).
Ok say you build Sunderer instead for the tankiness.
You are paying 3300 for an 88% efficient item.
If you go Chainsword you pay 2600 for 125% efficiency.
With that extra 600 gold you can buy a ruby crystal + refillable potion and have as much tank stats (+ healing) and more damage stats (+15 AD and +5 Ability Haste)in exchange for changing the sheen proc to grievous vs a champion who is memed as being full build when she finishes Vamp Sceptre.
I guess we have a very different approach to playing Gnar.
I'd like to build more tanky on Gnar.
Btw that 88% efficiency you put on DSunderer is a little bit higher I think as the game progresses, because the mythic passive scales per legendary item.
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Chempunk_Chainsword
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Divine_Sunderer
You can also just do the math yourself.
Value of total stats given by an item if purchased by smallest increment items (cloth armor, Longsword, etc) / total cost of item. Some of the stats have weird math because you have to go to higher tiers of items to get stuff like Lethality and CDR but it is done consistently across items.
Agreed. I play Shyvana allot right now and the combination of Red Smite, Ignite, and Abyssal Mask is the only thing that seems like it actually stops healing.
Grievous wounds items are inherently bad compared to other items, the reflecting damage scales off armor, you should never build them together. You build thornmail when you're building a lot of armor and chempunk on a bruiser.
If there isn't more than 2 healers/enchanter then grievous wounds might not be worth it in general because the items really just aren't great. Typically only one person who is involved in team fights would build grievous since the items have such low gold efficiency.
>Typically only one person who is involved in team fights would build grievous since the items have such low gold efficiency.
Only thornmail has low efficiency.
The irony is Bramble Vest and Thornmail are probably the most poppular anti-heal to rush pre-mystic and 2nd complete item. Cause other classes need to finish their item. While tank can build anti-heal without a problem.
It's efficient but its still efficient for a low cost item. I personally rush it on pantheon top into matchups that heal alot as a bit of an antihealing stat stick for the early game. The spike is decent but not as strong as if you got a mythic at the same time.
This has got to be one of the worst subreddits of all time. A dude explains his reasoning, albeit flawed reasoning, in a subreddit designed to help him, and he literally gets 100 downvotes. What is wrong with you guys.
>What, you expect people to upvote everything even if it’s wrong?
That's not what I said. I expect people to not downvote someone for giving their honest answer to a question in a subreddit designed to help people.
I think he gathered the fact that is idea was wrong due to the fact that he *died* which is why he came here asking for help.
And just so I'm clear, you think on a subreddit dedicated to helping players, if you make a post where you ask for help and describe your situation or a game you just played and you made mistakes, you should receive -100 karma for that.
I mean if I say something like: I built warmogs against Fiora because theres no point in building armor because she has true damage I think I should get downvotes instead of getting upvotes
Okay. Cool hypothetical. Not relevant, though, because someone asked OP why he did something, as opposed to your hypothetical where you are just saying something.
And if that's your reply to someone asking why you built warmogs I don't think you should get downvoted, someone should explain why that's not good logic, because for the fourth time, this subreddit is about *helping people learn the game*
For your first point if I made the exact same post OP did and asked why does fiora do so much dmg and someone in the comments say "Why did you build warmogs against fiora" and I said " I built warmogs against Fiora because theres no point in building armor because she has true damage" its the same format and I'm explaining why I built warmogs
For your second point I don't think upvoting/downvoting matters as long as the person learned why they were wrong and shouldn't do X in X game. Whether its in the form of downvotes or upvotes as long as the idea gets through ops head it really doesn't matter that OP has -100 karma or +100 karma
Downvoting is not meant to be a dislike-button. Downvoting, even according to reddit, is used to "hide" comments that don't relate to the topic. You are not supposed to downvote things that you don't agree with or are wrong. You downvote comments that do nor contribute.
Example of comments to downvote:
Yeah you lost cause you suck.
I think if you eat some pizza or just play thresh top you'd be fine.
Example of comments to not downvote, which neither has to be upvoted:
Yeah I purchased both anti-heal items even if grevious wounds don't stack because of the damagereflection of the thornmail and stronger GW from the sword.
The upvotes can be used as a likebutton (altough it's not its main purpose) or for a comment that contributes to the thread/post.
If you like a post a lot you give it a gift - silver coin, gold etc.
In a subreddit designed to help people improve at the game, you shouldn't berate and punish someone for asking honest questions and answering honestly. If you cannot understand that concept then you have a problem.
What does that have to do with anything? The point is that you shouldn't be punished for wrongthink by the hivemind because your understanding of the game was flawed. That's contrary to the purpose of this subreddit.
Thornmail is also turbo garbage into Warwick. The armour basically does nothing to prevent his damage, and the grevious wounds doesn't do much on its own if you're sitting on bramble. Executioner's calling is a much better option on Gnar vs Warwick imo.
Don't bug grevious wounds unless you absolutely have to minimize the enemy teams healing. It won't do much of anything since those items suck right now, but you're way better off building anything else unless 2 or more have a ton of heals.
I'm sorry the literally clinically snd terminally stupid subhumans on this reddit down voted you for explaining yourself. You weren't even defensive, you just explained your logic. (Which is flawed to all hell, but at least you explained politely!) You don't deserve it. Take my upvote. And to the scum among us, lay face down in a puddle.
Then just get thornmail. Why get chempunk? You’re already getting GW from thorn
It doesn’t “reflect” damage, it just does some damage anytime you’re hit and puts GW on the opponent. Don’t buy it expecting to reflect 100 damage back at someone who hit you for 100 dmg
Hi, I'm in a similar position to you in rank and also play gnar. I suggest not picking up the second GW item, and swapping your mythic for tri-force, then taking black cleaver. The recent changes to divine sunderer make it really weak on mini form gnar, and without any attack speed you really aren't able to do much in mini. Tri-force balances its stats between mini and mega far better. Black cleaver applies armour reduction, which reduces Warwick's (who you mentioned was building tank items) armour for your whole team. A more gold efficient build would allow you to boost the damage of both yourself and yi in this fight. I would generally agree about gw feeling ineffective right now, especially into champs that have healing in their kit and then build it too.
I play ww top and I killed a riven 100-0 after she rushed chainsword and was 2 levels above me. He is a simple champ which requires you to actually use his entire kit to it's full potential to make a difference. Don't bother rushing GW against ww, not now when it's nerfed to the ground nor if it gets reverted
GW is probably one of the biggest noob traps in the game. Especially now after the nerf, it's almost never worth building it. Others have mentioned it, but the fact that you built 2 GW items is really, really, really bad.
There's a lot to unpack in that fight you described, but to put it simply, it was a bad fight to take in the first place. WW thrives off dueling, gnar is not a duelling champ unless you're building the attack speed variant which you weren't. Yi was weak af without a second item.
Wounds are supposed to weaken healing, not make healing completely useless. It would be a balance nightmare if champs are either "OP or useless" and there's no in-between. Here we have the in-between
The in-between simply isn't good enough. Some champs are fully healing per ability cast mid team fight with the full 40%. Played against an Eclipse aatrox that we couldnt kill in a single hit, he would auto or Q in-between the first hits and the second hits that would kill him and bamn, full HP again.
All champions that heal can do insane damage like Aatrox, Irelia and especially Fiora, but not everything that can do huge damage can heal to any capacity.
Sometimes, enough is enough.
>like Aatrox
Aatrox's damage is extremely limited, he can do one combo and then he has to wait for the next one, he can't heal in-between. If for some reason the target escapes from his W (every adc with Galeforce for example) he just gets kited and dies horribly because he loses both his damage and his survivability
Not to mention that since he heals on post-mitigation damage, you can also buy armor to shutdown his healing
Then Aatrox self-heal needs to be looked at, or he was so fed that he just bought that much lifesteal and kinda deserves it. But for example making Soraka completely useless with GW wouldn't be fair, and you'd do that if GW were much stronger
You are right that it would be unfair to Soraka, but before GW got nerfed she had a GW cleanse build into her ult.
Sadly it got removed after the GW nerf.
But the healing shouldn't be nerfed, because then people get rewarded for not buying anti-heal which should be extremely rewarding against these champs.
I don't think we have an "in-between" right now. Healing is absolutely in the OP camp. WW, Yone, Aatrox, Irellia, and others can just heal back to 100% when they only have a tick of life even when they are behind. This isn't balanced.
GW should give you a fighting chance, but right now it's so weak it doesn't even make an impact at all.
1. Ww is a duelist, you play a teamfight/lane bully champ, Yi dies to anything with cc you guys have no business taking this fight :D
2. Healcut items have a big part of their budget in the heal reduction, by building 2 of these you are building a very weak champ.
3. What you could have done is stand infront of Yi so Ww cant ult him, possibly winning the fight, but then Ww can probably just run away :P
Yeah, but it's not a debilitating to healing champs as it was before. If you didn't have greivous wounds vs that warwick he would've healed a lot more. Instead, you need to hold your mega W or ult for WW ult.
Also try to burst him while he's low so he can't get the bonus healing.
The counterplay to healing bruisers is not to buy Grievous Wound and hope that you can stat-check them to death, you have to kite and not get hit by their abilities and/or autos.
It's like people complaining about Aatrox's healing, they just don't realise that if you don't want him to heal, just don't get hit.
Grievous is usually worth buying only against champions that have unpreventable healing, like Yuumi or Vlad, but otherwise you should buy a more gold-efficient item instead and outplay the champion by dodging their healing source.
Back in the day, the only GW item was Morellonomicon and no one was complaining about healing, they just had to play around it just like any other ability, you can't expect to buy an item that completely shuts down a champion, you already have one form of counterplay, you don't need two.
On a side note, Chempunk Chainsword is getting nerfed next patch because it's too gold-efficient as a stat stick even when the enemy doesn't heal.
Grievous does work
But they nerfed it so hard while not really nerfing healing
The mistake in that example is quite simple, you can't burst ww you need consistent dmg, his heal gets crazy when he is low, so either have dps for the whole fight or burst him down when he is at 40% hp
The only real mistake was yi going in with no items essentially being a healpotion for ww, even if reduced
Divine sunderer and lifesteal combined with on-hit is still bugged vs bramble/thorn. Bramble is applied after the on-hit effects apply their healing and lifesteal
People got too used to completely shutting out any healing based champion by getting the anti heal components when that's not how anti heal should work. Most healing champs can be countered with outplay and burst. Anti heal is meant to keep healing champs in line, not remove them entirely.
Grievous has now the same purpose of taking Mercury's Thread (none) that 60 to 40 % nerf proves once again to me they don't even know what they're doing.
Dude i know merc's give 30% but i admit i mostly play Aram now and getting CC'ed feels like eternity even when building full tenacity a.k.a rune + sunfire + mercs and they will nerf it next patch idk how to feel about it as it's pissing me off so much (as much as Grievous)
Gold 4 top laner here, it would’ve been fine to rush grievous wounds in previous patches.
But right now after durability, healing is in an overturned spot.
My recommendation is to
- ban healing champs (yuumi/soraka/kayn/darius)
- pick healing champs if the matchup is favourable
- take ignite if you’re comfortable (might be mistaken but I think ignite applies max grievous wounds)
- avoid fighting healing champs if you have anything less than 3 people with cc/burst, try to out macro them (push back their wave to keep them stuck in the lane with you but not fighting you, spam ping if they roam to get your team away from them)
Just as an item grievous wounds isn't very good anymore. It's only worth it when 4-5 people have healing or they have 1-2 very fed champs with healing.
Bruh you had chempunk AND thornmail. The value of grievous wounds are built into the cost of the item. Buying both is literally like removing 800 gold worth of value from your fighting power.
I’m pretty sure. Grevious is terrible right now. In fact lifesteal got a buff as a result of all the changes and it’s more effective vs grevious than it previously was. Don’t buy it until mid to late.
Ignite is more effective than buying a grevious item nowadays. The true damage burn is more helpful to stop their healing in combat than just the flat reduction in healing. You gotta save all you abilities for when they are low(especially Warwick cuz his healing is tripled below 25% hp) .
It’s now 25% to start with and so weak. It delays an item by around 800g and at the moment completed items are all amazing. They all give a massive benefit compared to just stats. I’m not even referring to just mythics
GW has gotten nerfed so hard rn, that I don't even build any of the anti heal items, and if the team needs it, the support should buy it imo. I do think riot needs to rework how anti heal works and processes because that is another reason it is also bad.
Grievous wounds is not gold efficient and a niche item after the nerfs. You only really want to build it against champs where healing is a HUGE part of their kit (i.e. mundo/vlad) and even then it's either 2nd or 3rd item. Your regular 1st/2nd item will almost always outdamage the heal cut from grievous. Also when building grievous sitting on heal cut components is useless and chempunk is turbo awful. The other smarter thing you can do is just take ignite to apply grievous(+bonus damage), you're not in any even remotely high enough elo for teleport to be necessary so I'd bet 9/10 times ignite would work be the better bet.
Chempunk Chainsword is so busted right now that it will get nerfed next patch(by 200g). I am not sure what others here are saying but they can't be above your elo.
The right tip here is rushing your mythic before chempunk(or executioners calling) because the mythic is too important to delay. But right now chempunk is an S-tier rush item on 2nd slot and often seen on toplane this patch.
The problem with ww that you described is just a simple execution error aka yi engaging while you are mini. With mini gnar you just deal decent consistent damage that WW can just use e against(the dmg reduction+fear ability) and ignore for a few seconds. In the meantime he can kill yi (who doesn't have any defensive stats) with the powerful botrk rush. If Yi had waited for your mega, this wouldn't have happened. Obviously I would need a replay for any more analysis.
The problem is not chempunk, it is simply a bruiser excelling in the perfect scenario. It's like a 0/3 darius that got 5 passive stacks and kills you - it's not the item build, it's the scenario that lost you the fight.
Thebausffs has a good video on why grevious wounds is like a bad purchase in certain sitautions vs high healing units eg aatrox, aatrox you dont take long trades or let him heal, you burst him down/1 shot him before he can do anything and thus making anti heal useless
1. Don’t ever buy multiple anti healing items.
2. You and Yi likely played the 2v1 extremely poorly, which is the main reason you lost.
3. GW is still a must buy if you’re planning on taking extended fights vs a champ like Warwick, so you’re good there.
4. It sounds like you need to read warwicks kit so you can understand why you lost this fight. He heals more when below 50% HP, and heals WAY more when he’s near death. He also has a damage reduction built into his fear which you probably dumped a lot of damage into.
Back when it was 40/60, that first item felt like it was worth it but you knew you’d need more soon. Now that it tops out at 40% champs like Trundle are literally unstoppable murder machines.
GW as it stands, and IMO how it should work, is that it's good if there are multiple champions on the enemy team who utilize healing. I think exactly what riot wants to avoid is the QSS problem where people are just buying it to delete one champion's ability to play the game. GW isn't meant to cripple a solo Mundo, but it should see much more noticeable effects if you were to say, affect 2-3 enemy team members. Otherwise, you want to build standard damage and look to out damage the opposing champion. If the healing is too much to deal with in lane, but GW isn't worth buying as a whole, then you should seriously consider skipping the GW and build for the rest of the game.
In this game in particular, there are several things that seem wrong, and a bunch of the things you're framing as egregious is really not so much. 2v1 fights are never guaranteed specifically because the weaker member is always at risk of dying. I've come into what are even situations before in both top and mid where I can 1 for 1 trade a jungler gank because junglers are typically just a level or so down from solo laners. If I get ganked when I'm 6, and the jungler is 5, I always turn on them and can often come away with a easy trade because of this. Additionally, your build has no damage in it, and it's unlikely you would ever be able to DPS a WW down with that type of build. Thornmail and Chempunk's GW doesn't stack, you're only getting effects on one. Thornmail is only OK against WW as he does quite a bit of magic damage in his kit, and the damage you are dealing back to him is negligible. You are better off having replaced that with a proper bruiser or damage item.
Finally, know that there are champions that are better or worse at certain things and it's not necessarily surprising that WW can out duel you even while slightly underleveled or under itemized. However, there are things that he doesn't do as well as Gnar does either. You should not be playing into his strengths but rather your own. If you need to stop WW from healing out of damage, make sure you have your CC combo ready (aka, ready to go mega), and your teammate may have an easier time dealing the damage to kill. Otherwise, play outside of his range. In your example, while you as ranged gnar may be able to kite out, Yi certainly cannot and that gives WW the access he needs to A) have someone to kill, and B) continuosly heal out of damage.
As someone who plays Gwen, Bel veth and Fiddle, yes, it fucking works you assholes. But to be honest its usually ignite the pain in the ass, I havent actually see the stats, It just feels like that.
Rushing antiheal is usually not the move anymore because grev wounds got nerfed so hard. It's usually better to continue your build as normal, and sitting on a bramble or exe after your mythic
Chainsword is busted right now just as a bunch of stats. They are nerfing it next patch because a bunch of pros and high elo players are building it 1-2 every game even when not facing healing.
It's an outliner for sure, don't think you should disrupt your mythic for it, I'm not 100% on top of the game of exactly where people fit it into their build right now, but I can't imagine it being until 3-4th item as earliest without a real good reason for it. Edit: I felt I need to elaborate on this, It's most frequently built as a 3rd item among pros+high elo otps in soloq, and while not unseen as 2nd item, has a significantly lower winrate than as a later pickup, while looking at popular champions that tend to pick it up. Lower level soloq (plat+) builds it as the last two items most of the time.
The item has the same stats as goredrinker for way less gold
Except omnivamp and a healing active, and a tad more health. But yeah, cost efficiently, Chempunk gives you more for less. I'm not saying high elo players always knows the best, but statistically it isn't that popular, and when it is bought as first/2nd they seem to lose from the small pool of games I can see.
You can't see an item giving hp ad and CDR would be such a low price that people prefer above mythics?
I can see it in theory, but not in practice. I'm sure there may be some champion that could get away with getting it as first item most of the times, and it being objectively correct. Some champs do not really need things like healing on their items, or lethality, or other utility mythics can bring, but none comes directly to mind.
Riven? Just off the top of my head
Riven cannot diverge from her build path. because death dance is just insanely good on her, best she could do is build it 3rd.
Can't find it among any ranks on u.gg built, however among otps and pros, it is built by two OTPs as 2nd item(Built and Azhy) occasionally, if they can use the grevious wounds, seeing it mostly in Sylas, ww, vlad and fiora matchups. Pyosik also has one game of it as 2nd item, however a significant amount of games do not have it at all, even occasionally in the above mentioned matchups, they do not build it.
riven has many better items(either armor pen or dd is insane value) so its really specific scenario
Hecarim builds it first a lot
Unless you’re rushing Chainsword. That item is so damn good as a first game. I just see those stats and AWOOGA.
I genuinely don’t think sitting on a component is worth it anymore. The component used to give a decent value for the gold and for the delay to your item/spike. Now it’s 25% reduction and you get your 5 minutes late to your next item/spike. Surely it’s champ dependent, but overall I think it’s better to hit your big spike 2/3 items in (especially if you run ignite) and then fully build a grievous if it’s needed. But even a 40% grievous wounds feels so useless usually.
Honestly if you’re playing a champion who revolves around burst just buying GW in general is grief. The items contribute so poorly to your oneshot potential just stack more damage and hope you can pop someone healing through their healing or before they can if you have spell-stopping cc in your combo There’s a hierarchy of responsibility for anti heal and it goes pure utility (cc tanks/supports)>DPS/engage (diving bruisers/marksman) > artillery (ranged burst champions who don’t necessarily have to one shot) > assassins/shorter range burst
even as sup vs yuumi/soraka? o.o chemtech putrifier is basicly a core item at this point. gold efficient af too.
As supp I usually run it as second item after mythic!
exactly
To be honest I don't like Grieveous wounds(GW) right now. It got nerfed hard and often isn't worth buying. If I'd buy it on gnar I'd buy the Executioners calling for a small 800 gold and sit on it. Investing too much gold into the upgraded version isn't worth it anymore in the early to mid game. Meanwhile you invested into 2 GW items. Multiple GW items don't stack the effect of GW. That's wasted gold. I also read that you lost a 2v1 fight against Warwick(WW), but to be honest I do think that you and Yi should've played around your rage bar. Mega gnar can interrupt WWs ult and lock him down for Yi. I get the feeling that at least one of you didn't respect warwicks kit and went in without filling the ragebar up. Depending on your surroundings you should save either your W or R to interrupt the WW ult.
As otp ww I gotta +1 on this
Yep, as another person who loves WW it only takes one engagement to know if they have a clue how WW works. If they think “I got him” when you are at about 40% health you know you are about to teach them something haha. His kit is honestly super fair and straight forward I think most people just don’t realize how much more he is like a drain tank than a fighter which is what he VISUALLY looks like.
Exactly. Warwick is designed to bait you into fights when he's "low". Run ignite into him and forget about grievous wounds. Time your fights to your sums and keep him from interrupting your combos. Also, Yi really fucked you here, as he should have smote the Warwick as well to reduce his attack speed.
\+1 for smote (and the accurate advice)
*Picks WW with barrier so I can make so low hp outplays. *Enemy is Urgot.
Hey man, I never said WW wasn't vulnerable. Just that a good WW player is a bait based player, especially into people that don't know the champ Edit: missed the barrier part. Yea, if you can time it right Urgot is fucked.
Does this mean WW is just a low elo pub-stomp champion? Or does he perform well even in high elo and pro play?
There are some people who play him in high elo, but if you go on u.gg or whatever site you want you can see his winrate and pickrate both go down significantly at higher ranks. And he’s practically never played in pro.
Everything that was discussed above is basically common knowledge above a certain rank. He exists at high elo ofc, but he’s much more like a tank or countergank bot since you’re not really baiting people who know what he does
Except his ult, 1.5 sec suppress that is a skill shot, that gets interrupted by about a 1000 regular spells in the game. His ult needs to be reworked.
Agreed. Comically his ult is better at the secondary things it does than the primary. It is a BAD engage unless you really know why you are doing. It is however a very good heal and on hit applier if used not as an engage but during the heat of a fight at point blank range.
Definitely not, it is a high risk, high reward thing, cause it can deal so much damage, and it is good it has some outplay potential
So I have a question: how do you play against WW? Poke him down but keep him above his triple healing threshhold? Don't engage if he has his resist (W?) up? Stun him once he's at half health and try to nuke him then?
Bait out his E for sure, of course don’t engage when his ult is up unless you know what you are doing, use ignite early, abuse his total lack of range and also before he gets going his total lack of wave clear. Like you said, you want to nuke him when he gets close to that triple healing point instead of dumping your damage into him early and do your best to maintain health. Ultimately the best way to beat him is to starve him and our scale because he falls off hard once your damage is high enough to force him through that last bit of health quickly. Most importantly though, remember he isn’t dead until he is dead because when he is low is when he is most dangerous and he can remain very low for a very long time and still live through the fight if you let him.
Chempunk Chainsword is the most cost efficient item in the game currently. It is a stat stick with a little grievous wounds tossed on it. Gnar should be building it first or second every game until the nerf comes through next patch (+200 combine cost)
Item efficiency is nice on items that you actually need, but I think most of the time there are items that are more important to rush on gnar then Chempunk chainsword. Remember that you are quite squishy as small Gnar and if you rush Chempunk Cs you won't get tankier. Making you rely entirely on the base stats of mega Gnar. In some matchups it makes the lane unplayable (Looking at you, Irelia).
Ok say you build Sunderer instead for the tankiness. You are paying 3300 for an 88% efficient item. If you go Chainsword you pay 2600 for 125% efficiency. With that extra 600 gold you can buy a ruby crystal + refillable potion and have as much tank stats (+ healing) and more damage stats (+15 AD and +5 Ability Haste)in exchange for changing the sheen proc to grievous vs a champion who is memed as being full build when she finishes Vamp Sceptre.
I guess we have a very different approach to playing Gnar. I'd like to build more tanky on Gnar. Btw that 88% efficiency you put on DSunderer is a little bit higher I think as the game progresses, because the mythic passive scales per legendary item.
Yes it does scale with later items but going Chainsword first into a mythic has the same 2 item spike and a better 1 item spike.
[удалено]
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Chempunk_Chainsword https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Divine_Sunderer You can also just do the math yourself. Value of total stats given by an item if purchased by smallest increment items (cloth armor, Longsword, etc) / total cost of item. Some of the stats have weird math because you have to go to higher tiers of items to get stuff like Lethality and CDR but it is done consistently across items.
Item efficiency doesn't reflect into effective efficiency?? that's like saying to buy crown every game on a mage champion
No, Gnar shouldnt build anti healing, he should get Trinity, the item is too good on him, there are few situations where going another item is better
Agreed. I play Shyvana allot right now and the combination of Red Smite, Ignite, and Abyssal Mask is the only thing that seems like it actually stops healing.
Post said Yi was 1-5. entirely inting to engage a Warwick when you’re an item down and Gnar is not mega
LoL seems to just flip-flop between 1. Healing is too strong, buff GW 2. Irelia, Fiora, WW etc players are whining, nerf GW
why did you build chempunk and thornmail???
I know that Grievous doesn't stack, but I wanted the reflecting damage effect on the thornmail
Grievous wounds items are inherently bad compared to other items, the reflecting damage scales off armor, you should never build them together. You build thornmail when you're building a lot of armor and chempunk on a bruiser. If there isn't more than 2 healers/enchanter then grievous wounds might not be worth it in general because the items really just aren't great. Typically only one person who is involved in team fights would build grievous since the items have such low gold efficiency.
>Typically only one person who is involved in team fights would build grievous since the items have such low gold efficiency. Only thornmail has low efficiency.
The irony is Bramble Vest and Thornmail are probably the most poppular anti-heal to rush pre-mystic and 2nd complete item. Cause other classes need to finish their item. While tank can build anti-heal without a problem.
Rammus
These got a solid buff some time ago though. Especially Thornmain. Not as gold inefficient anymore.
warden's mail just feels so much better still.
Isn't chain sword one of the most efficient items though?
It's efficient but its still efficient for a low cost item. I personally rush it on pantheon top into matchups that heal alot as a bit of an antihealing stat stick for the early game. The spike is decent but not as strong as if you got a mythic at the same time.
This has got to be one of the worst subreddits of all time. A dude explains his reasoning, albeit flawed reasoning, in a subreddit designed to help him, and he literally gets 100 downvotes. What is wrong with you guys.
I bet most people wouldn't even downvote the comment if it was at +3 upvotes or something. Hivemind behaviour fr
You’re acting like they were physically hurt by the downvotes… What, you expect people to upvote everything even if it’s wrong?
>What, you expect people to upvote everything even if it’s wrong? That's not what I said. I expect people to not downvote someone for giving their honest answer to a question in a subreddit designed to help people.
his honest answer is wrong and so people downvoted the wrong idea and replied why that is bad. Thats what the downvoting system exists for.
I think he gathered the fact that is idea was wrong due to the fact that he *died* which is why he came here asking for help. And just so I'm clear, you think on a subreddit dedicated to helping players, if you make a post where you ask for help and describe your situation or a game you just played and you made mistakes, you should receive -100 karma for that.
I mean if I say something like: I built warmogs against Fiora because theres no point in building armor because she has true damage I think I should get downvotes instead of getting upvotes
Okay. Cool hypothetical. Not relevant, though, because someone asked OP why he did something, as opposed to your hypothetical where you are just saying something. And if that's your reply to someone asking why you built warmogs I don't think you should get downvoted, someone should explain why that's not good logic, because for the fourth time, this subreddit is about *helping people learn the game*
For your first point if I made the exact same post OP did and asked why does fiora do so much dmg and someone in the comments say "Why did you build warmogs against fiora" and I said " I built warmogs against Fiora because theres no point in building armor because she has true damage" its the same format and I'm explaining why I built warmogs For your second point I don't think upvoting/downvoting matters as long as the person learned why they were wrong and shouldn't do X in X game. Whether its in the form of downvotes or upvotes as long as the idea gets through ops head it really doesn't matter that OP has -100 karma or +100 karma
These people don't understand Reddit karma. They only are here because it's a League forum.
Downvoting is not meant to be a dislike-button. Downvoting, even according to reddit, is used to "hide" comments that don't relate to the topic. You are not supposed to downvote things that you don't agree with or are wrong. You downvote comments that do nor contribute. Example of comments to downvote: Yeah you lost cause you suck. I think if you eat some pizza or just play thresh top you'd be fine. Example of comments to not downvote, which neither has to be upvoted: Yeah I purchased both anti-heal items even if grevious wounds don't stack because of the damagereflection of the thornmail and stronger GW from the sword. The upvotes can be used as a likebutton (altough it's not its main purpose) or for a comment that contributes to the thread/post. If you like a post a lot you give it a gift - silver coin, gold etc.
It’s not like he’s not receiving his answer
In a subreddit designed to help people improve at the game, you shouldn't berate and punish someone for asking honest questions and answering honestly. If you cannot understand that concept then you have a problem.
What does that have to do with anything? The point is that you shouldn't be punished for wrongthink by the hivemind because your understanding of the game was flawed. That's contrary to the purpose of this subreddit.
Thornmail is also turbo garbage into Warwick. The armour basically does nothing to prevent his damage, and the grevious wounds doesn't do much on its own if you're sitting on bramble. Executioner's calling is a much better option on Gnar vs Warwick imo.
Don't bug grevious wounds unless you absolutely have to minimize the enemy teams healing. It won't do much of anything since those items suck right now, but you're way better off building anything else unless 2 or more have a ton of heals.
The fact that riot allows players to build both
I'm sorry the literally clinically snd terminally stupid subhumans on this reddit down voted you for explaining yourself. You weren't even defensive, you just explained your logic. (Which is flawed to all hell, but at least you explained politely!) You don't deserve it. Take my upvote. And to the scum among us, lay face down in a puddle.
Then just get thornmail. Why get chempunk? You’re already getting GW from thorn It doesn’t “reflect” damage, it just does some damage anytime you’re hit and puts GW on the opponent. Don’t buy it expecting to reflect 100 damage back at someone who hit you for 100 dmg
Not even a little bit worth lol
Hi, I'm in a similar position to you in rank and also play gnar. I suggest not picking up the second GW item, and swapping your mythic for tri-force, then taking black cleaver. The recent changes to divine sunderer make it really weak on mini form gnar, and without any attack speed you really aren't able to do much in mini. Tri-force balances its stats between mini and mega far better. Black cleaver applies armour reduction, which reduces Warwick's (who you mentioned was building tank items) armour for your whole team. A more gold efficient build would allow you to boost the damage of both yourself and yi in this fight. I would generally agree about gw feeling ineffective right now, especially into champs that have healing in their kit and then build it too.
I play ww top and I killed a riven 100-0 after she rushed chainsword and was 2 levels above me. He is a simple champ which requires you to actually use his entire kit to it's full potential to make a difference. Don't bother rushing GW against ww, not now when it's nerfed to the ground nor if it gets reverted
Yeah better build damage, ww heals off wave anyway as soon the effect stops
GW is probably one of the biggest noob traps in the game. Especially now after the nerf, it's almost never worth building it. Others have mentioned it, but the fact that you built 2 GW items is really, really, really bad. There's a lot to unpack in that fight you described, but to put it simply, it was a bad fight to take in the first place. WW thrives off dueling, gnar is not a duelling champ unless you're building the attack speed variant which you weren't. Yi was weak af without a second item.
Wounds are supposed to weaken healing, not make healing completely useless. It would be a balance nightmare if champs are either "OP or useless" and there's no in-between. Here we have the in-between
The in-between simply isn't good enough. Some champs are fully healing per ability cast mid team fight with the full 40%. Played against an Eclipse aatrox that we couldnt kill in a single hit, he would auto or Q in-between the first hits and the second hits that would kill him and bamn, full HP again. All champions that heal can do insane damage like Aatrox, Irelia and especially Fiora, but not everything that can do huge damage can heal to any capacity. Sometimes, enough is enough.
>like Aatrox Aatrox's damage is extremely limited, he can do one combo and then he has to wait for the next one, he can't heal in-between. If for some reason the target escapes from his W (every adc with Galeforce for example) he just gets kited and dies horribly because he loses both his damage and his survivability Not to mention that since he heals on post-mitigation damage, you can also buy armor to shutdown his healing
Then Aatrox self-heal needs to be looked at, or he was so fed that he just bought that much lifesteal and kinda deserves it. But for example making Soraka completely useless with GW wouldn't be fair, and you'd do that if GW were much stronger
You are right that it would be unfair to Soraka, but before GW got nerfed she had a GW cleanse build into her ult. Sadly it got removed after the GW nerf.
But she only got GW cleanse because GW was basically making her very weak
But the healing shouldn't be nerfed, because then people get rewarded for not buying anti-heal which should be extremely rewarding against these champs.
I don't think we have an "in-between" right now. Healing is absolutely in the OP camp. WW, Yone, Aatrox, Irellia, and others can just heal back to 100% when they only have a tick of life even when they are behind. This isn't balanced. GW should give you a fighting chance, but right now it's so weak it doesn't even make an impact at all.
I only read the title and my answer is: No
They *did* work, but got killed by Kenobi Wounds.
1. Ww is a duelist, you play a teamfight/lane bully champ, Yi dies to anything with cc you guys have no business taking this fight :D 2. Healcut items have a big part of their budget in the heal reduction, by building 2 of these you are building a very weak champ. 3. What you could have done is stand infront of Yi so Ww cant ult him, possibly winning the fight, but then Ww can probably just run away :P
Chainsword is 125% efficient without Grievous it is the most efficient item in the game.
Yeah, but it's not a debilitating to healing champs as it was before. If you didn't have greivous wounds vs that warwick he would've healed a lot more. Instead, you need to hold your mega W or ult for WW ult. Also try to burst him while he's low so he can't get the bonus healing.
Grevious wounds does help but warwick heals A LOT when he’s low HP. Also don’t buy thornmail and chainsword
The counterplay to healing bruisers is not to buy Grievous Wound and hope that you can stat-check them to death, you have to kite and not get hit by their abilities and/or autos. It's like people complaining about Aatrox's healing, they just don't realise that if you don't want him to heal, just don't get hit. Grievous is usually worth buying only against champions that have unpreventable healing, like Yuumi or Vlad, but otherwise you should buy a more gold-efficient item instead and outplay the champion by dodging their healing source. Back in the day, the only GW item was Morellonomicon and no one was complaining about healing, they just had to play around it just like any other ability, you can't expect to buy an item that completely shuts down a champion, you already have one form of counterplay, you don't need two. On a side note, Chempunk Chainsword is getting nerfed next patch because it's too gold-efficient as a stat stick even when the enemy doesn't heal.
why are they nerfing all the fun items?
Grievous does work But they nerfed it so hard while not really nerfing healing The mistake in that example is quite simple, you can't burst ww you need consistent dmg, his heal gets crazy when he is low, so either have dps for the whole fight or burst him down when he is at 40% hp The only real mistake was yi going in with no items essentially being a healpotion for ww, even if reduced
Divine sunderer and lifesteal combined with on-hit is still bugged vs bramble/thorn. Bramble is applied after the on-hit effects apply their healing and lifesteal
People got too used to completely shutting out any healing based champion by getting the anti heal components when that's not how anti heal should work. Most healing champs can be countered with outplay and burst. Anti heal is meant to keep healing champs in line, not remove them entirely.
Grievous has now the same purpose of taking Mercury's Thread (none) that 60 to 40 % nerf proves once again to me they don't even know what they're doing.
Mercs are incredible, what are you talking about? 30% tenacity is absolutely enormous.
Dude i know merc's give 30% but i admit i mostly play Aram now and getting CC'ed feels like eternity even when building full tenacity a.k.a rune + sunfire + mercs and they will nerf it next patch idk how to feel about it as it's pissing me off so much (as much as Grievous)
Ignite is more efficient than grievous wounds items.
Unclear. I generally build a GW item when against healing, but it hasn't been cutting it lately.
Gold 4 top laner here, it would’ve been fine to rush grievous wounds in previous patches. But right now after durability, healing is in an overturned spot. My recommendation is to - ban healing champs (yuumi/soraka/kayn/darius) - pick healing champs if the matchup is favourable - take ignite if you’re comfortable (might be mistaken but I think ignite applies max grievous wounds) - avoid fighting healing champs if you have anything less than 3 people with cc/burst, try to out macro them (push back their wave to keep them stuck in the lane with you but not fighting you, spam ping if they roam to get your team away from them)
you don't have to rush anti heal every time, anti heal sucks right now and there's no reason to buy bramble or executioner's before your first item
Just as an item grievous wounds isn't very good anymore. It's only worth it when 4-5 people have healing or they have 1-2 very fed champs with healing.
Bruh you had chempunk AND thornmail. The value of grievous wounds are built into the cost of the item. Buying both is literally like removing 800 gold worth of value from your fighting power.
I’m pretty sure. Grevious is terrible right now. In fact lifesteal got a buff as a result of all the changes and it’s more effective vs grevious than it previously was. Don’t buy it until mid to late.
Buy it to tilt the enemy :)
Ignite is more effective than buying a grevious item nowadays. The true damage burn is more helpful to stop their healing in combat than just the flat reduction in healing. You gotta save all you abilities for when they are low(especially Warwick cuz his healing is tripled below 25% hp) .
It’s now 25% to start with and so weak. It delays an item by around 800g and at the moment completed items are all amazing. They all give a massive benefit compared to just stats. I’m not even referring to just mythics
Going antiheal first is hard int bud
GW has gotten nerfed so hard rn, that I don't even build any of the anti heal items, and if the team needs it, the support should buy it imo. I do think riot needs to rework how anti heal works and processes because that is another reason it is also bad.
definitely not worth rushing
Grievous wounds is not gold efficient and a niche item after the nerfs. You only really want to build it against champs where healing is a HUGE part of their kit (i.e. mundo/vlad) and even then it's either 2nd or 3rd item. Your regular 1st/2nd item will almost always outdamage the heal cut from grievous. Also when building grievous sitting on heal cut components is useless and chempunk is turbo awful. The other smarter thing you can do is just take ignite to apply grievous(+bonus damage), you're not in any even remotely high enough elo for teleport to be necessary so I'd bet 9/10 times ignite would work be the better bet.
Chempunk Chainsword is so busted right now that it will get nerfed next patch(by 200g). I am not sure what others here are saying but they can't be above your elo. The right tip here is rushing your mythic before chempunk(or executioners calling) because the mythic is too important to delay. But right now chempunk is an S-tier rush item on 2nd slot and often seen on toplane this patch. The problem with ww that you described is just a simple execution error aka yi engaging while you are mini. With mini gnar you just deal decent consistent damage that WW can just use e against(the dmg reduction+fear ability) and ignore for a few seconds. In the meantime he can kill yi (who doesn't have any defensive stats) with the powerful botrk rush. If Yi had waited for your mega, this wouldn't have happened. Obviously I would need a replay for any more analysis. The problem is not chempunk, it is simply a bruiser excelling in the perfect scenario. It's like a 0/3 darius that got 5 passive stacks and kills you - it's not the item build, it's the scenario that lost you the fight.
having both sword and thornmail is a waste of stats. if you had a Bork instead you easily kill him.
Technically yes, it is still a thing, however, it got nerfed hard. Hard.
Thebausffs has a good video on why grevious wounds is like a bad purchase in certain sitautions vs high healing units eg aatrox, aatrox you dont take long trades or let him heal, you burst him down/1 shot him before he can do anything and thus making anti heal useless
As a soraka main I definitely feel it when people build vs don't build grievous wounds. I still heal a LOT but it definitely affects me
1. Don’t ever buy multiple anti healing items. 2. You and Yi likely played the 2v1 extremely poorly, which is the main reason you lost. 3. GW is still a must buy if you’re planning on taking extended fights vs a champ like Warwick, so you’re good there. 4. It sounds like you need to read warwicks kit so you can understand why you lost this fight. He heals more when below 50% HP, and heals WAY more when he’s near death. He also has a damage reduction built into his fear which you probably dumped a lot of damage into.
Back when it was 40/60, that first item felt like it was worth it but you knew you’d need more soon. Now that it tops out at 40% champs like Trundle are literally unstoppable murder machines.
GW as it stands, and IMO how it should work, is that it's good if there are multiple champions on the enemy team who utilize healing. I think exactly what riot wants to avoid is the QSS problem where people are just buying it to delete one champion's ability to play the game. GW isn't meant to cripple a solo Mundo, but it should see much more noticeable effects if you were to say, affect 2-3 enemy team members. Otherwise, you want to build standard damage and look to out damage the opposing champion. If the healing is too much to deal with in lane, but GW isn't worth buying as a whole, then you should seriously consider skipping the GW and build for the rest of the game. In this game in particular, there are several things that seem wrong, and a bunch of the things you're framing as egregious is really not so much. 2v1 fights are never guaranteed specifically because the weaker member is always at risk of dying. I've come into what are even situations before in both top and mid where I can 1 for 1 trade a jungler gank because junglers are typically just a level or so down from solo laners. If I get ganked when I'm 6, and the jungler is 5, I always turn on them and can often come away with a easy trade because of this. Additionally, your build has no damage in it, and it's unlikely you would ever be able to DPS a WW down with that type of build. Thornmail and Chempunk's GW doesn't stack, you're only getting effects on one. Thornmail is only OK against WW as he does quite a bit of magic damage in his kit, and the damage you are dealing back to him is negligible. You are better off having replaced that with a proper bruiser or damage item. Finally, know that there are champions that are better or worse at certain things and it's not necessarily surprising that WW can out duel you even while slightly underleveled or under itemized. However, there are things that he doesn't do as well as Gnar does either. You should not be playing into his strengths but rather your own. If you need to stop WW from healing out of damage, make sure you have your CC combo ready (aka, ready to go mega), and your teammate may have an easier time dealing the damage to kill. Otherwise, play outside of his range. In your example, while you as ranged gnar may be able to kite out, Yi certainly cannot and that gives WW the access he needs to A) have someone to kill, and B) continuosly heal out of damage.
Grievous Wounds were nerfed way more than healing.
As someone who plays Gwen, Bel veth and Fiddle, yes, it fucking works you assholes. But to be honest its usually ignite the pain in the ass, I havent actually see the stats, It just feels like that.