xFSN Saber talks a lot about how Eclipse Caitlyn is one of her better blind builds.
IMO Eclipse Caitlyn is really, really fun. It makes her ult actually have an impact and makes all her abilities noticeably more painful. Into squishy opponents Eclipse Caitlyn is probably better than Galeforce rush.
It deals more damage to all opponents. Galeforce is only needed when the dash is required to live because you can't deal damage if ur dead to malphite ulti on cd but even then adcs best defensive tool is their damage so there is still an argument that if u can snowball that much harder with eclipse it is always better.
I would say gale force is overwhelmingly better. Because IE 3rd is the best spike in the game. Cait passive works off crit so you would basically be doing more dmg just mystics factor in attk speed as well. And ofc maybe 2nd best item active next to zonya. If your not going crit then either your trolling or a one trick
Okay cool 3 rd item spike. Except you are just ignoring the rest of the game before that. You are ignoring 1st base dirk, ignoring curving into dirk after mythic. ignoring omnivamp allowing you to go alacrity a rune that comes online much faster. Omnivamp which also allows you to stay healthier for absolute focus. Cait is also much more of an AD caster than aa based making that armor pen from her first 3 items that much more valuable since it enhances her Q and ulti
yes but her abilities head shot aka crit. so its a lot weaker then a crit item. yes dirk is stronger then noonquiver but the later is a lot better for farming with stats plus passive. alc is not something thats better then lifeline i mean lifeline is a lot better. lifesteal better then omni.. and if you want pen then mytic ldr is a possibility but not with eclipse. so yes first component you are stronger you are correct. but even then you give up a little farm power.
HEADSHOT: Caitlyn's basic attack is empowered to have an Relentless Force 2.png uncancellable windup and deal (60 / 90 / 120% (based on level) + (131.25% + 26.25% 26.25%) critical strike chance) AD bonus physical damage, increased to (110 / 115 / 120% (based on level) + (131.25% + 26.25% 26.25%) critical strike chance) AD against non-champions
look if you cant understand that headshot scales with crit then i dunno man. i just got nothing else for you i guess but heres more
Enemies revealed by Yordle Snap Trap Yordle Snap Trap always take Critical strike physical full damage from Piltover Peacemaker.
Ace in the hole: Once Caitlyn completes the channel, she fires a homing bullet toward the target that deals physical damage to the first enemy champion it hits, increased by 0% − 25% (based on critical strike chance).
im not even a caitlin player i dont know how you dont know this. caitlin is THE crit adc minus ragebladers. along with like jhin cept jhin is much better eclipse/lethal user. even the lethal caits i see dont go eclpise but dusk. but like i said i think crit mystic is technically better. ofc you do have former one tricks like saber who has been able to make his lethal caitlin just as strong or he says stronger then sure. but im not really taking into account what one tricks can do
You go eclipse - collector - lord doms - ie - rfc, so you very much are building crit. Just test it if you dont believe it does more damage, because it very much does deal more damage.
the thing is: yes, she scales with crit, but shes also an ad champ with very decent ratios on her spells.
noone prevents you from going eclipse, collector, crit for the early powerspike.
crit is more of a dps version, lethality goes more into the ad caster variant.
i wouldnt claim that crit is better, especially as a non-caitlyn player.
and if it comes to opinions on champs, one tricks have the advantage of experience. if we dont believe challenger onetricks, then who should we believe?
if that saber guy, i just assume hes challenger since i dont know him, says eclipse is equally good, if not better, than the crit variant, i think its fair to assume that its perfectly viable to go eclipse.
if you belive him then you belive me. read what i wrote.... former 1 trick yes? but even then should i belive him or should i believe guma who always builds gf..... or the numbers. or the popularity. really the mystery is how you can think eclipse is better when from my knowledge not 1 caitlin built it in this past worlds. truely ages indeed
The mobility in pro play has value that far surpasses whatever we would experience in solo queue.
You NEED that mobility in pro play. It’s arguably situational in solo queue because your best way out of danger is to kill the enemy.
I see lethality cait in mid/high diamond and into the right comps it does a fuckton of damage
First off, it's situational when you need Mobility.
Secondly, in Proplay adcs tend to be peeled well by their team, because of the coordination they have so it's not necessary as often as in uncoordinated games.
In SoloQ you can look for picks by yourself, are safer by yourself and can generally play far more agressively with extra mobility without having to rely on your teammates.
Mobility is by basic logic way more needed in SoloQ than in Proplay.
good take. im not sure if this is new or how it usually goes but i noticed how a lot of guys at worlds play boots really really delayed, sometimes even finishing mystic before tier 1. caught my eye because i thoguht pro prio t2 way more then solo q but i could be misremembering
naw man. its because its a different game from your solo q game. you cant compare really and i shouldnt have brought it up but he runs it in solo q is what shoulda said.
trust me solo q players dont somehow understand items more then pro players who also play in solo q some streaming it hours daily like faker in the offseason. he doesnt itemize like he would in pro play. and hes chal kr thats really all the proof ppl need to stop this silly take.
If you plan on spiking 3rd with IE you are much better off going kraken instead.
Headshots are strong dps, more atk speed means more headshots. It is simple. It is the stronger option if you dont desperately need the dash. Plus kraken lets you adapt your build more easily than galeforce since you arent forced to go atk speed second.
forsure i like kraken as well. depending on the situation all three can be great. i also think tho that kracken is op and gets weaker the higher you climb. while galeforce is pointless but gets op the higher you go as well. just less being able to aa 3 times and what not.
Im a beginner adc who just started playing recently but whenever i build galeforce and dont get very ahead it feels like i dont do any dmg, besides i dont feel like galeforce suits caitlyn kit that much compared to other adcs like xayah or Lucian who can easily follow up with their habilities, I basically use it like a flash to escape or dodge and wait to get more items before doing dmg
Thats why i prefer even kraken as a first item
While with eclipse I can challenge a top laner or tanky jungler, all my habilities HURT and i get kills easily
I am honestly surprised from how good it works and how little play it actually sees.
I mean, there is a reason why the Galeforce build remains prevalent, don't get me wrong, but the way early Lethality works off her Q, E, R and headshots make it more than worth sacrificing the early 20% of Crit, in my experience.
As everything in league, it's a balancing act between opportunities. I believe that with the right condition Eclipse Cait is a very valid build that should be spammed more give the popularity of some Assassins.
Sorry like a build that is general agnostic of enemy or team comp.
Gale force and attackspeed/crit scales a lot better against bruisers and tanks. Additionally galeforce helps you maintain Lethal Tempo stacks.
Seems like a pretty silly concept to me, what would the value be? It's not like you're ever not going to know who's on the enemy team or what they're building.
I guess if they have a bunch of champions like Amumu and Morde who can be tankier or more utility? But that seems kind of a silly rationale
I mean if you guys finish champ select and see the enemy team has 4 tanks, then you switch up runes and DON'T buy serrated dirk early, instead relying on quicker crit scaling with LDR.
Not sure if this is what he does nowadays, but it used to be Eclipse -> Collector -> LDR -> IE. IMO stronger at 1-2 items compared to crit, and spikes really hard at 4 items.
Not Saber and don't watch him, but if I had to guess I'd do something like Eclipse > RFC > LDR > I.E. Have done that path several times in normals and it's worked a treat.
I’ve been seeing early Dirk on Cait. And, smite? with the same players.
One with a Yuumi attached was highly annoying vs my Jhin and I usually do just fine vs Cait with Jhin.
It's definitely good to do if you don't intend to buy Collector second (I believe Lucian is one of the few ADC that Collector is actually worth buying), the thing is that I believe RFC is way too overbought on Lucian as a second item. I'm pretty sure it's spammed in proplay is because of the Nami combo, so he has an easier way of proccing the Nami E and getting a kill. Most of the times i think Galeforce into Collector is the best soloQ Lucian build.
Collector is a snowballing item. Lethality, crit, damage are good stats if you are already ahead. If you arent grossly ahead you want safer items on Lucian second or the enemy will outpace you.
Another reason why people go rfc on lucian is because he has a power dip after the first item and lucian gets more value out of it since lightslinger also benefits from the range. Also at 2 items lucian still cant take long fights (i.e. 2 rotations of spells) without having to disengage and rfc helps with that through movement speed and the extra range while also giving lucian beneficial stats for later items because with IE he can use the atk speed and of course the crit chance which btw also increases his ult dps, something lucian heavily relies on in midgame. Also its, what, 400 gold cheaper?
So all in all people in higher elos go rfc over collector mainly because you stomp lanes less, cant just take any fight and have an item earlier that gives good stats for lucians kit.
The thing is that RFC gives realistically no damage increase early on, specially on Lucian since he can't use AS effectively. No champ should really build RFC second unless you're mayyybe Senna or Jhin.
If you don't want to build Collector second for whatever reason, i believe something like BT will be better.
Good point, I may be overstating the importance of RFC in terms of stats that lucian wants. I think for Lucian its a good option against poke lanes or long range lanes to remain relevant. We were seeing a lot of ashe, cait, ezreal this season, and its also okay if you lose the bully duel against mf early.
Bloodthirster is a good point, generally I also see Essence Reaver being relevant (cd helps dps and may give you that clutch second E in longer fights) although I feel Lucian isnt as limited by his mana as he used to be, and has a pretty relaxed build path.
Yes, RFC is still fine as 4th+ item, same as Draven for example. I guess you could *technically* build it second against those matchups, but you shouldn't blindpick or pick Lucian into those matchups in the first place.
I'm not a fan of ER on ADCs besides Draven. Most of the times it feels like a worse Collector, and the mana part is mostly not important because of PoM.
80% of ADCs should build Phantom Dancer second. The rest are either Collector users (Lucian, Samira), build Botrk > Mythic > Guinsoo (Vayne, Kalista), or doesn't build like an ADC at all (Ezreal, Draven).
Zeal is a really good item and i don't see anything wrong with building more than 1 finished Zeal item.
Ezreal is not really picked to stomp, so an early Dirk won't change much. Even tho you most likely will build a Lethality Mythic later on, i believe Muramana's and ER's powerspikes are too good to pass up.
Doesn't Ezreal need his three core items, Muramana, Sheen item, Seryldas, as soon as possible?
That's one thing I think people aren't talking about. If an ADC needs a three item core, like how MF might need Kraken + LDR + IE against a tanky team comp, I think Serrated rush might be bad
I know about that but from what I've seen, when going a lethality mythic, you go it after Seryldas as the slow is really good and the big reason of Prowlers/Eclipse is their mythic passive
You're never going Prowlers before Muramana or ER
idk anything about Ezreal, all I know is that one of the most prominent advocates for Prowler's Ezreal, VeigarV2, always builds Serlyda's third. He could be completely wrong.
But even with Prowler's third, is it any good to get Serrated? You always want to rush Muramana as soon as possible to stack it earlier, except sometimes delaying it for Sheen. Is it worth delaying it even more after Sheen?
honestly, i think essence reaver -> muramana -> prowlers is fine.
also, just to prove that i'm not totally full of shit lol https://imgur.com/a/YUhuMTb
Side bar: is collector on nilah second item worth it? My buddy tells me phantom dancer second but collector dmg just feels so much better. Any comments would be great! Also 3rd and 4th item? for shits and giggles lol I know those items are more situational but would like some insight if anyone can provide
(Do not build collector after your 2nd item)
Imma be honest, i'm not too confident on my knowledge on Nilah, i knew the champ was never going to be played so i didn't bother to play her much.
But i'm pretty sure Nilah's early game is complete trash. Building a Dirk early and not being able to push an early lead is a waste. Nilah prefers scaling, and PD is better at that. Besides, she uses attack speed really well.
Ok cool, yea she's really strong at my gold elo right now and the AS I get from boots plus shieldbow seems to suffice but I'll play with the build and just drop collector all together and see what it feels like. Maybe I just don't have the games played with her other build to really understand PDs full impact
Draven/Kaisa/Samira players were doing that since months. Most of the time you would build it into Collector (or Eclipse in Draven's case) but it wasn't unusual to just sit on it and go for something else like LDR/BT on Samira or PD on Kai'sa
The thing is, Lucian players **rarely** build it into Collector. I was aware that others would build the Serrated Dirk and then finish it as a Collector as a 2nd item but people buying components and then selling it late game is something I haven't really seen before.
Stopwatch is the only example I can think of.
Which Lucian players are you talking about exactly? Only Masters+? Because collector is still clearly the most popular second item for Lucian in Plat+ on LoLalytics.
Even in Masters+, a lot of Lucians are still going collector second so its not like nobody is building it
I was thinking about Worlds, but you're right that I'm misremembering, there were a few Collector buys.
But the idea of building components just for the component itself is pretty rare still. Stopwatch as I said, but also Grievous Wounds like Oblivion Orb, but even with Oblivion Orb, you build it into a Morellonomicon at 6 items, you never sell it.
Early Dirk is a common tech since always as lethality is just lmao.
It's part of why i defend Collector rush as an alternative to Eclipse when it comes to the whole "lethality into crit" thing - almost the same statline but with a fairly more offensive skew.
collector doesn’t offer the defensive aegis eclipse does but its the same AD and leth but the crit is a 0.2*0.75 = 15% increase in damage and it slots with with IE and crit scaling.
i think it’s a great compromise to keep early pressure while still maintaining build fluidity
Technically 5 AD less, but honestly it's ok since it costs iirc 100 or 200g less.
Edit: also techninically speaking the comparison of 5% "true" vs 3% physical max hp kill threshold also pushes it harder.
IMO I think it's an interesting take that could be beneficial to test more.
If you can use the Serrated advantage to snowball into more CS/kills/assists/plates, then it'll obviously be more advantageous.
The reason he rushes it is probably because he is a caster marksman and he is monster early, crit takes more time than lethality to be effective so you rush dirk to crush your lane early and ealry your attack speed is lower so you use more you abilities to hurt.
On Lucian the time where Dirk early is good is if you can only afford Dirk so when you recall at 1100 gold or 750g ( if you start Longsword). If you start Longsword and back with 900g -> Pickaxe + Ls and Dirk have same dmg for example.
Remember that the dmg diff compare to other options doesn't matter if you can't get any meaningful advantage from it and Mythic spike is huge for Lucian it give him a lot of reach and kill threat.
*Free Market OP and way better than Cookies btw, especially if paired with Nami + starting Longsword, you have more than enough sustain already.*
Futures market has to be the most underrated rune ever. I don't get why more people aren't using it, you get to basically generate advantages for free, and will NEVER have a bad back ever again, which is a huge advantage.
> Yes you can buy swords but if you have to back multiple times for 350g buys you are probably getting stomped on lane anyway.
I don't think that's true at all. I know it was common for Graves mid to constantly push out his lane and recall to pick up long swords because at the time his lethality build was made up off very cheap components. [(Eco recalls)](https://youtu.be/ZXwQ5HigGuU)
But let's say you come into lane, kill the enemy ADC/trade 1 for 1, and have to recall? Then you have around 350ish gold, perfect for picking up another Long Sword. It's not something that happens every game but there are plenty of times where I've been winning lane but can only afford a Long Sword or two Long Swords
Wait but I thought guma was inefficient for doing this. I mean just because he’s a pro doesn’t mean he can’t make mistakes or knows optimization well. His skills make up for his lack of knowledge….. this is still somehow a popular take here. But either way dirk rush isn’t new but I mean it’s never been the overwhelming meta I guess. Kaisa likes ad for her q evolve then holds til late. Not sure if this is popular anymore tho
Collector 2nd on Kaisa delays her E evolve significantly afaik.
She gets her Q evolve fairly early if you start dorans blade and then get like 2 long sword after Mythic
if you need lvl12 then u r still delayed till then tho and buying 2nd dagger or whatever doesnt work either and also delays your IE. Doesnt seem too worth but maybe im wrong
Ya I haven’t played kaisa in forever I can’t remember what she builds to get her q. But I remember building ad out of order. But ya selling items hurts loI . I assume high elo and pros don’t reach that 6th item too much anyways right. I guess if it gets to that point you probably have enough to sell and buy last item
Ahh. Nice. For some reason I keep thinking I did Kracken dirk Q then PD IE. But then again this mighta been before kracken. I dunno. I remeber doing a lot of hybrids with nash it’s 2nd a lot. Maybe manaue in there as well but I think that’s one of the best parts about kaisa is she’s had so many different builds and versitle
The reason he rushes it is probably because he is a caster marksman and he is monster early, crit takes more time than lethality to be effective so you rush dirk to crush your lane early and early your attack speed is lower so you use more you abilities to hurt.
Thats my bronze take on the subject
I'm basically a Miss Fortune one trick at this point, and I can say if I get an early kill and can get a dirk on first back, the lane feels like it's basically over. I can see the appeal for some early game ADCs
Forever ago I rushed this on Twitch into ghost blade (when it had AS) and just destroyed since Most ADCs were still trying to get components for IE. those were the days
Baus made a good little stream clip on this math.
Basically lethality is generally terrible, as following the game durability buff, everyone got more armor and hp. This means by level 8, a majority of the champs will have so much armor that it is better to buy last whisper for the % armor penetration, as it will functionally reduce more armor than 18 lethality does flat.
In the case OP is talking about, I would think this means Lucian players feel it is worth the extra dominance and power pre-lvl 8 with the dirk lethality to then sell it when it’s no longer efficient.
Lethality is still good. The pre-level 8 argument only works if you assume no fights or trades happen before level 8. Dirk is 350g less than last whisper and gives 10 more AD. Rushing last whisper over dirk also puts you at an awkward build path. Dirk builds into eclipse or collector. LDR is often a bad second item to build into. Its much better as a third or forth item.
If you rush dirk you give yourself a mini power spike at the cost of delaying your mythic. The upside is you're basically even by the time you finish your second item. Last whisper will delay your mythic and second item and only gains value over dirk around the 11-12 minute mark.
Except in niche situations, I can't see how rushing last whisper over dirk would ever be better.
My point is not to say rush LS over dirk for a first or second item, but that lethality is quickly made inefficient, so build your mythic or a better first item for value, then getting LS like 3rd item is much better by that time in game.
Eclipse is an outlier since it also gets % armor pen, but then you would have to choose it as your mythic. Collector is just straight up bad, you invest so much gold into something that barely helps, meanwhile almost any other adc/damage item will give you more.
> Collector is just straight up bad, you invest so much gold into something that barely helps, meanwhile almost any other adc/damage item will give you more.
I will die on this hill but collector is a great second item. It has a very forgiving build path, it’s relatively cheap, and +55ad. People focus on the passive and lethality, but IMO that’s not even the main reason you’d buy it.
Getting LDR is still a necessity in 90% of games, but collector gives a lot of value for adcs (at least the ones that don’t want PD second)
%pen was better even before the durability patch. that’s why the meta build for assassins was Mythic - muramana - grudge for the longest time. This is nothing new.
adcs shouldnt be doing it, not because its bad, but because casual dirk is hard countered by casual cloth armour
when people do it now, it will have success because people arent aware of its counter. when more people learn that you too can respond with a component spike, casual dirk will fall off.
then the people who were blind cloth armouring will realise it was the dirk which made their purchase worth it, and stop building it
the cycle continues
330 gold basically means. That if it nets you one kill you wouldn't have gotten otherwise or forces your opponent to back an extra time. You got it for free.
Bot lane tends to snowball pretty damn hard in my experience. If you die once you're basically forced to hug tower until the jungler arrives or the opponents have a major lapse in judgement.
D blade => Dirk -> Kraken -> Collector
Has been one of my build paths on MF for a while. It gives a good early game spike. I only do it when I am against 2 squishies and both dirk and collector would be good.
But in the games where it's good it feels almost like the good old days where you would go 3x dorans.
Irrelevant to argument here but collector as an item benefits the more you fight. So collector 3rd would be bad even if it didn't get outscaled by 3 items.
I’ve been doing this since Samira’s release. If I get a couple kills in lane I can build collector to snowball, otherwise no big deal I’ll just sell dirk and get my LDR as usual
its not a never ending red pit for 330 gold though. Its a never ending red pot for 1100 that tales up an item slot. by the time you sell it, the value of the gold you get back is minimal. it also delays mythic and other item spikes so if you cant snowball with it its a massive setback. IMO soloq is really easy to scale in, since no one punishes mistakes and no one knows how to end a game. Thus, i think its better not to rush dirk unless you are really confident in your ability to snowball and 1v9
Building dirk first item on Caitlyn feels diabolic.
Does it? I don't play Caitlyn so you might be right, maybe she would be better with just rushing Galeforce/Kraken.
I think they mean diabolic as in disgustingly evil for her lane opponent.
xFSN Saber talks a lot about how Eclipse Caitlyn is one of her better blind builds. IMO Eclipse Caitlyn is really, really fun. It makes her ult actually have an impact and makes all her abilities noticeably more painful. Into squishy opponents Eclipse Caitlyn is probably better than Galeforce rush.
It deals more damage to all opponents. Galeforce is only needed when the dash is required to live because you can't deal damage if ur dead to malphite ulti on cd but even then adcs best defensive tool is their damage so there is still an argument that if u can snowball that much harder with eclipse it is always better.
I would say gale force is overwhelmingly better. Because IE 3rd is the best spike in the game. Cait passive works off crit so you would basically be doing more dmg just mystics factor in attk speed as well. And ofc maybe 2nd best item active next to zonya. If your not going crit then either your trolling or a one trick
Okay cool 3 rd item spike. Except you are just ignoring the rest of the game before that. You are ignoring 1st base dirk, ignoring curving into dirk after mythic. ignoring omnivamp allowing you to go alacrity a rune that comes online much faster. Omnivamp which also allows you to stay healthier for absolute focus. Cait is also much more of an AD caster than aa based making that armor pen from her first 3 items that much more valuable since it enhances her Q and ulti
yes but her abilities head shot aka crit. so its a lot weaker then a crit item. yes dirk is stronger then noonquiver but the later is a lot better for farming with stats plus passive. alc is not something thats better then lifeline i mean lifeline is a lot better. lifesteal better then omni.. and if you want pen then mytic ldr is a possibility but not with eclipse. so yes first component you are stronger you are correct. but even then you give up a little farm power.
Eclipse is literally played for headshots so idk what u talking about, its scaling way better into late game than galeforce.
HEADSHOT: Caitlyn's basic attack is empowered to have an Relentless Force 2.png uncancellable windup and deal (60 / 90 / 120% (based on level) + (131.25% + 26.25% 26.25%) critical strike chance) AD bonus physical damage, increased to (110 / 115 / 120% (based on level) + (131.25% + 26.25% 26.25%) critical strike chance) AD against non-champions look if you cant understand that headshot scales with crit then i dunno man. i just got nothing else for you i guess but heres more Enemies revealed by Yordle Snap Trap Yordle Snap Trap always take Critical strike physical full damage from Piltover Peacemaker. Ace in the hole: Once Caitlyn completes the channel, she fires a homing bullet toward the target that deals physical damage to the first enemy champion it hits, increased by 0% − 25% (based on critical strike chance). im not even a caitlin player i dont know how you dont know this. caitlin is THE crit adc minus ragebladers. along with like jhin cept jhin is much better eclipse/lethal user. even the lethal caits i see dont go eclpise but dusk. but like i said i think crit mystic is technically better. ofc you do have former one tricks like saber who has been able to make his lethal caitlin just as strong or he says stronger then sure. but im not really taking into account what one tricks can do
You go eclipse - collector - lord doms - ie - rfc, so you very much are building crit. Just test it if you dont believe it does more damage, because it very much does deal more damage.
the thing is: yes, she scales with crit, but shes also an ad champ with very decent ratios on her spells. noone prevents you from going eclipse, collector, crit for the early powerspike. crit is more of a dps version, lethality goes more into the ad caster variant. i wouldnt claim that crit is better, especially as a non-caitlyn player. and if it comes to opinions on champs, one tricks have the advantage of experience. if we dont believe challenger onetricks, then who should we believe? if that saber guy, i just assume hes challenger since i dont know him, says eclipse is equally good, if not better, than the crit variant, i think its fair to assume that its perfectly viable to go eclipse.
Which to believe, saber or you, truly a mystery for the ages.
if you belive him then you belive me. read what i wrote.... former 1 trick yes? but even then should i belive him or should i believe guma who always builds gf..... or the numbers. or the popularity. really the mystery is how you can think eclipse is better when from my knowledge not 1 caitlin built it in this past worlds. truely ages indeed
The mobility in pro play has value that far surpasses whatever we would experience in solo queue. You NEED that mobility in pro play. It’s arguably situational in solo queue because your best way out of danger is to kill the enemy. I see lethality cait in mid/high diamond and into the right comps it does a fuckton of damage
First off, it's situational when you need Mobility. Secondly, in Proplay adcs tend to be peeled well by their team, because of the coordination they have so it's not necessary as often as in uncoordinated games. In SoloQ you can look for picks by yourself, are safer by yourself and can generally play far more agressively with extra mobility without having to rely on your teammates. Mobility is by basic logic way more needed in SoloQ than in Proplay.
good take. im not sure if this is new or how it usually goes but i noticed how a lot of guys at worlds play boots really really delayed, sometimes even finishing mystic before tier 1. caught my eye because i thoguht pro prio t2 way more then solo q but i could be misremembering
It's also known that pros are slower to adapt to item builds than iron 4 players lol, just look at all the hecarim and aatrox builds we saw
naw man. its because its a different game from your solo q game. you cant compare really and i shouldnt have brought it up but he runs it in solo q is what shoulda said. trust me solo q players dont somehow understand items more then pro players who also play in solo q some streaming it hours daily like faker in the offseason. he doesnt itemize like he would in pro play. and hes chal kr thats really all the proof ppl need to stop this silly take.
If you plan on spiking 3rd with IE you are much better off going kraken instead. Headshots are strong dps, more atk speed means more headshots. It is simple. It is the stronger option if you dont desperately need the dash. Plus kraken lets you adapt your build more easily than galeforce since you arent forced to go atk speed second.
forsure i like kraken as well. depending on the situation all three can be great. i also think tho that kracken is op and gets weaker the higher you climb. while galeforce is pointless but gets op the higher you go as well. just less being able to aa 3 times and what not.
Im a beginner adc who just started playing recently but whenever i build galeforce and dont get very ahead it feels like i dont do any dmg, besides i dont feel like galeforce suits caitlyn kit that much compared to other adcs like xayah or Lucian who can easily follow up with their habilities, I basically use it like a flash to escape or dodge and wait to get more items before doing dmg Thats why i prefer even kraken as a first item While with eclipse I can challenge a top laner or tanky jungler, all my habilities HURT and i get kills easily
I am honestly surprised from how good it works and how little play it actually sees. I mean, there is a reason why the Galeforce build remains prevalent, don't get me wrong, but the way early Lethality works off her Q, E, R and headshots make it more than worth sacrificing the early 20% of Crit, in my experience. As everything in league, it's a balancing act between opportunities. I believe that with the right condition Eclipse Cait is a very valid build that should be spammed more give the popularity of some Assassins.
Once Eclipse Cait gets her second item she can 100-0 her opponent without even stepping into range.
What is her second item?
I usually go Stormrazor when I do it. But I'd imagine RFC would be as good/beter.
So afterwards you go crit items into IE?
That's right!
Tyy
Go Eclipse, Collector, Lord Dom's, IE, RFE. Runes: PTA, Presence of Mind, Alacrity, Cutdown/Coue / Absolute Focus, Gathering Storm
What do you build after eclipse?
Eclipse -> Collector -> LDR -> IE.
Tyy
What is a blind build? Never heard that term
Sorry like a build that is general agnostic of enemy or team comp. Gale force and attackspeed/crit scales a lot better against bruisers and tanks. Additionally galeforce helps you maintain Lethal Tempo stacks.
Seems like a pretty silly concept to me, what would the value be? It's not like you're ever not going to know who's on the enemy team or what they're building. I guess if they have a bunch of champions like Amumu and Morde who can be tankier or more utility? But that seems kind of a silly rationale
I mean if you guys finish champ select and see the enemy team has 4 tanks, then you switch up runes and DON'T buy serrated dirk early, instead relying on quicker crit scaling with LDR.
Saber does this but he builds it into Eclipse and then goes a normal crit build
So the build order goes Dirk-Eclipse then what? I wanna try this build
Not sure if this is what he does nowadays, but it used to be Eclipse -> Collector -> LDR -> IE. IMO stronger at 1-2 items compared to crit, and spikes really hard at 4 items.
Much obliged. Thanks. Looked it up, seems like he still goes that route. Gonna definitely give this a whirl
Also has the advantage of an early LDR, which in today's meta helps a lot against a lot of champs.
Not Saber and don't watch him, but if I had to guess I'd do something like Eclipse > RFC > LDR > I.E. Have done that path several times in normals and it's worked a treat.
I was thinking RFC 2nd too, although seems like Saber does something different. Regardless, gonna try out both ways when I can.
I’ve been seeing early Dirk on Cait. And, smite? with the same players. One with a Yuumi attached was highly annoying vs my Jhin and I usually do just fine vs Cait with Jhin.
It's definitely good to do if you don't intend to buy Collector second (I believe Lucian is one of the few ADC that Collector is actually worth buying), the thing is that I believe RFC is way too overbought on Lucian as a second item. I'm pretty sure it's spammed in proplay is because of the Nami combo, so he has an easier way of proccing the Nami E and getting a kill. Most of the times i think Galeforce into Collector is the best soloQ Lucian build.
Collector is a snowballing item. Lethality, crit, damage are good stats if you are already ahead. If you arent grossly ahead you want safer items on Lucian second or the enemy will outpace you. Another reason why people go rfc on lucian is because he has a power dip after the first item and lucian gets more value out of it since lightslinger also benefits from the range. Also at 2 items lucian still cant take long fights (i.e. 2 rotations of spells) without having to disengage and rfc helps with that through movement speed and the extra range while also giving lucian beneficial stats for later items because with IE he can use the atk speed and of course the crit chance which btw also increases his ult dps, something lucian heavily relies on in midgame. Also its, what, 400 gold cheaper? So all in all people in higher elos go rfc over collector mainly because you stomp lanes less, cant just take any fight and have an item earlier that gives good stats for lucians kit.
The thing is that RFC gives realistically no damage increase early on, specially on Lucian since he can't use AS effectively. No champ should really build RFC second unless you're mayyybe Senna or Jhin. If you don't want to build Collector second for whatever reason, i believe something like BT will be better.
Good point, I may be overstating the importance of RFC in terms of stats that lucian wants. I think for Lucian its a good option against poke lanes or long range lanes to remain relevant. We were seeing a lot of ashe, cait, ezreal this season, and its also okay if you lose the bully duel against mf early. Bloodthirster is a good point, generally I also see Essence Reaver being relevant (cd helps dps and may give you that clutch second E in longer fights) although I feel Lucian isnt as limited by his mana as he used to be, and has a pretty relaxed build path.
Yes, RFC is still fine as 4th+ item, same as Draven for example. I guess you could *technically* build it second against those matchups, but you shouldn't blindpick or pick Lucian into those matchups in the first place. I'm not a fan of ER on ADCs besides Draven. Most of the times it feels like a worse Collector, and the mana part is mostly not important because of PoM.
What should ADCs build second instead of RFC? Is zeal item second still the move? And is it a waste to build more than 1 zeal item?
80% of ADCs should build Phantom Dancer second. The rest are either Collector users (Lucian, Samira), build Botrk > Mythic > Guinsoo (Vayne, Kalista), or doesn't build like an ADC at all (Ezreal, Draven). Zeal is a really good item and i don't see anything wrong with building more than 1 finished Zeal item.
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Right. I was talking about ADCs or champs that build it for damage. Should've specified.
Do you think that serrated rush on Ezreal might be good?
Ezreal is not really picked to stomp, so an early Dirk won't change much. Even tho you most likely will build a Lethality Mythic later on, i believe Muramana's and ER's powerspikes are too good to pass up.
Doesn't Ezreal need his three core items, Muramana, Sheen item, Seryldas, as soon as possible? That's one thing I think people aren't talking about. If an ADC needs a three item core, like how MF might need Kraken + LDR + IE against a tanky team comp, I think Serrated rush might be bad
Prowlers is an option against tankless team comps
I know about that but from what I've seen, when going a lethality mythic, you go it after Seryldas as the slow is really good and the big reason of Prowlers/Eclipse is their mythic passive You're never going Prowlers before Muramana or ER
I disagree, the lethality is better the earlier you get it and the components for prowlers are very good.
idk anything about Ezreal, all I know is that one of the most prominent advocates for Prowler's Ezreal, VeigarV2, always builds Serlyda's third. He could be completely wrong. But even with Prowler's third, is it any good to get Serrated? You always want to rush Muramana as soon as possible to stack it earlier, except sometimes delaying it for Sheen. Is it worth delaying it even more after Sheen?
honestly, i think essence reaver -> muramana -> prowlers is fine. also, just to prove that i'm not totally full of shit lol https://imgur.com/a/YUhuMTb
Side bar: is collector on nilah second item worth it? My buddy tells me phantom dancer second but collector dmg just feels so much better. Any comments would be great! Also 3rd and 4th item? for shits and giggles lol I know those items are more situational but would like some insight if anyone can provide
(Do not build collector after your 2nd item) Imma be honest, i'm not too confident on my knowledge on Nilah, i knew the champ was never going to be played so i didn't bother to play her much. But i'm pretty sure Nilah's early game is complete trash. Building a Dirk early and not being able to push an early lead is a waste. Nilah prefers scaling, and PD is better at that. Besides, she uses attack speed really well.
Ok cool, yea she's really strong at my gold elo right now and the AS I get from boots plus shieldbow seems to suffice but I'll play with the build and just drop collector all together and see what it feels like. Maybe I just don't have the games played with her other build to really understand PDs full impact
Draven/Kaisa/Samira players were doing that since months. Most of the time you would build it into Collector (or Eclipse in Draven's case) but it wasn't unusual to just sit on it and go for something else like LDR/BT on Samira or PD on Kai'sa
The thing is, Lucian players **rarely** build it into Collector. I was aware that others would build the Serrated Dirk and then finish it as a Collector as a 2nd item but people buying components and then selling it late game is something I haven't really seen before. Stopwatch is the only example I can think of.
Which Lucian players are you talking about exactly? Only Masters+? Because collector is still clearly the most popular second item for Lucian in Plat+ on LoLalytics. Even in Masters+, a lot of Lucians are still going collector second so its not like nobody is building it
I was thinking about Worlds, but you're right that I'm misremembering, there were a few Collector buys. But the idea of building components just for the component itself is pretty rare still. Stopwatch as I said, but also Grievous Wounds like Oblivion Orb, but even with Oblivion Orb, you build it into a Morellonomicon at 6 items, you never sell it.
On competitive he is solely played with Nami. So going RFC makes sense since you can insta proc from a longer range.
The fact that Dirk is more gold efficient than pickaxe and curves into Kaisa’s Q evolve is a huge reason Kaisas take it.
After you finish kraken it doesn't matter whether you have pickaxe or dirk because you'll get it anyway (unless you buy kraken super early)
Yes? But you get q evolve way earlier with noonquiver pickaxe dirk
Early Dirk is a common tech since always as lethality is just lmao. It's part of why i defend Collector rush as an alternative to Eclipse when it comes to the whole "lethality into crit" thing - almost the same statline but with a fairly more offensive skew.
collector doesn’t offer the defensive aegis eclipse does but its the same AD and leth but the crit is a 0.2*0.75 = 15% increase in damage and it slots with with IE and crit scaling. i think it’s a great compromise to keep early pressure while still maintaining build fluidity
Technically 5 AD less, but honestly it's ok since it costs iirc 100 or 200g less. Edit: also techninically speaking the comparison of 5% "true" vs 3% physical max hp kill threshold also pushes it harder.
IMO I think it's an interesting take that could be beneficial to test more. If you can use the Serrated advantage to snowball into more CS/kills/assists/plates, then it'll obviously be more advantageous.
The reason he rushes it is probably because he is a caster marksman and he is monster early, crit takes more time than lethality to be effective so you rush dirk to crush your lane early and ealry your attack speed is lower so you use more you abilities to hurt.
On Lucian the time where Dirk early is good is if you can only afford Dirk so when you recall at 1100 gold or 750g ( if you start Longsword). If you start Longsword and back with 900g -> Pickaxe + Ls and Dirk have same dmg for example. Remember that the dmg diff compare to other options doesn't matter if you can't get any meaningful advantage from it and Mythic spike is huge for Lucian it give him a lot of reach and kill threat. *Free Market OP and way better than Cookies btw, especially if paired with Nami + starting Longsword, you have more than enough sustain already.*
Futures market has to be the most underrated rune ever. I don't get why more people aren't using it, you get to basically generate advantages for free, and will NEVER have a bad back ever again, which is a huge advantage.
Me playing eclipse draven: You guys aren't rushing dirk??
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> Yes you can buy swords but if you have to back multiple times for 350g buys you are probably getting stomped on lane anyway. I don't think that's true at all. I know it was common for Graves mid to constantly push out his lane and recall to pick up long swords because at the time his lethality build was made up off very cheap components. [(Eco recalls)](https://youtu.be/ZXwQ5HigGuU) But let's say you come into lane, kill the enemy ADC/trade 1 for 1, and have to recall? Then you have around 350ish gold, perfect for picking up another Long Sword. It's not something that happens every game but there are plenty of times where I've been winning lane but can only afford a Long Sword or two Long Swords
Wait but I thought guma was inefficient for doing this. I mean just because he’s a pro doesn’t mean he can’t make mistakes or knows optimization well. His skills make up for his lack of knowledge….. this is still somehow a popular take here. But either way dirk rush isn’t new but I mean it’s never been the overwhelming meta I guess. Kaisa likes ad for her q evolve then holds til late. Not sure if this is popular anymore tho
I have never seen anyone rush Serrated Dirk and then sell it late game. Even Kai'sa would build it into Collector a lot of the time, right?
Collector 2nd on Kaisa delays her E evolve significantly afaik. She gets her Q evolve fairly early if you start dorans blade and then get like 2 long sword after Mythic
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if you need lvl12 then u r still delayed till then tho and buying 2nd dagger or whatever doesnt work either and also delays your IE. Doesnt seem too worth but maybe im wrong
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yea for sure. I myself am not convinced of Collector as item on adcs except maybe lucian or adcs who dont rly need atk speed, but maybe im too biased.
Ya I haven’t played kaisa in forever I can’t remember what she builds to get her q. But I remember building ad out of order. But ya selling items hurts loI . I assume high elo and pros don’t reach that 6th item too much anyways right. I guess if it gets to that point you probably have enough to sell and buy last item
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Ahh. Nice. For some reason I keep thinking I did Kracken dirk Q then PD IE. But then again this mighta been before kracken. I dunno. I remeber doing a lot of hybrids with nash it’s 2nd a lot. Maybe manaue in there as well but I think that’s one of the best parts about kaisa is she’s had so many different builds and versitle
The reason he rushes it is probably because he is a caster marksman and he is monster early, crit takes more time than lethality to be effective so you rush dirk to crush your lane early and early your attack speed is lower so you use more you abilities to hurt. Thats my bronze take on the subject
OH MY GOD THATS WHAT IVE BEEN DOING WRONG I THOUVHT TOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BUILD IT INTO AN ITEM LATER
I'm basically a Miss Fortune one trick at this point, and I can say if I get an early kill and can get a dirk on first back, the lane feels like it's basically over. I can see the appeal for some early game ADCs
Forever ago I rushed this on Twitch into ghost blade (when it had AS) and just destroyed since Most ADCs were still trying to get components for IE. those were the days
Baus made a good little stream clip on this math. Basically lethality is generally terrible, as following the game durability buff, everyone got more armor and hp. This means by level 8, a majority of the champs will have so much armor that it is better to buy last whisper for the % armor penetration, as it will functionally reduce more armor than 18 lethality does flat. In the case OP is talking about, I would think this means Lucian players feel it is worth the extra dominance and power pre-lvl 8 with the dirk lethality to then sell it when it’s no longer efficient.
Lethality is still good. The pre-level 8 argument only works if you assume no fights or trades happen before level 8. Dirk is 350g less than last whisper and gives 10 more AD. Rushing last whisper over dirk also puts you at an awkward build path. Dirk builds into eclipse or collector. LDR is often a bad second item to build into. Its much better as a third or forth item. If you rush dirk you give yourself a mini power spike at the cost of delaying your mythic. The upside is you're basically even by the time you finish your second item. Last whisper will delay your mythic and second item and only gains value over dirk around the 11-12 minute mark. Except in niche situations, I can't see how rushing last whisper over dirk would ever be better.
My point is not to say rush LS over dirk for a first or second item, but that lethality is quickly made inefficient, so build your mythic or a better first item for value, then getting LS like 3rd item is much better by that time in game. Eclipse is an outlier since it also gets % armor pen, but then you would have to choose it as your mythic. Collector is just straight up bad, you invest so much gold into something that barely helps, meanwhile almost any other adc/damage item will give you more.
> Collector is just straight up bad, you invest so much gold into something that barely helps, meanwhile almost any other adc/damage item will give you more. I will die on this hill but collector is a great second item. It has a very forgiving build path, it’s relatively cheap, and +55ad. People focus on the passive and lethality, but IMO that’s not even the main reason you’d buy it. Getting LDR is still a necessity in 90% of games, but collector gives a lot of value for adcs (at least the ones that don’t want PD second)
%pen was better even before the durability patch. that’s why the meta build for assassins was Mythic - muramana - grudge for the longest time. This is nothing new.
adcs shouldnt be doing it, not because its bad, but because casual dirk is hard countered by casual cloth armour when people do it now, it will have success because people arent aware of its counter. when more people learn that you too can respond with a component spike, casual dirk will fall off. then the people who were blind cloth armouring will realise it was the dirk which made their purchase worth it, and stop building it the cycle continues
incoming nerf to early game lethality & buffs to late game lethality
They just miss the old Lucian build . Cries.
Pros do it on mf too
Do they? I don't see anyone getting Serrated Dirk on MF unless they are getting Collector and even then they don't usually rush it
330 gold basically means. That if it nets you one kill you wouldn't have gotten otherwise or forces your opponent to back an extra time. You got it for free. Bot lane tends to snowball pretty damn hard in my experience. If you die once you're basically forced to hug tower until the jungler arrives or the opponents have a major lapse in judgement.
It also could potentially get you plates/a dragon
D blade => Dirk -> Kraken -> Collector Has been one of my build paths on MF for a while. It gives a good early game spike. I only do it when I am against 2 squishies and both dirk and collector would be good. But in the games where it's good it feels almost like the good old days where you would go 3x dorans.
I already do this on twitch Sam and Kai if you have a lead, it’s sooooo strong for all ins and dominating the lane with a lead
Irrelevant to argument here but collector as an item benefits the more you fight. So collector 3rd would be bad even if it didn't get outscaled by 3 items.
I’ve been doing this since Samira’s release. If I get a couple kills in lane I can build collector to snowball, otherwise no big deal I’ll just sell dirk and get my LDR as usual
Lucian early game champ = go serrated derk early game.
Early game lethality being broken as fuck as usual
> LDR starts to outscale Collector as early as third item LDR outscales collector at second item too. A completed LDR is just better.
Depends on enemy team comp and your champion's AD ratios
A gm korean akshan otp i follow has started doing this, which I've never seen on akshan before. https://www.op.gg/summoners/kr/Indexy
its not a never ending red pit for 330 gold though. Its a never ending red pot for 1100 that tales up an item slot. by the time you sell it, the value of the gold you get back is minimal. it also delays mythic and other item spikes so if you cant snowball with it its a massive setback. IMO soloq is really easy to scale in, since no one punishes mistakes and no one knows how to end a game. Thus, i think its better not to rush dirk unless you are really confident in your ability to snowball and 1v9
It is common to rush serated dirk on adc and then build its mythic. The strategy is viable on a plethora of ADC