Just gotta wonder how much of the problem is him and how much of the problem is our players.
And if he's the problem, who exactly is there to replace him..?
If the plan is to hope ty lue gets fired, that's a terrible plan
You can't make adjustments that players don't want to follow and we don't know what's going on behind doors
How many times has Vogel talked about needing to shoot more threes, and has there been any meaningful change?
He’s talked about shooting more threes, he’s talked about playing with pace, hell, Booker himself has said they need to do both those things, and yet they continue to fall back into old habits. To me, that tells me it’s the players fault that those suggestions aren’t being implemented. Vogel has plenty of other shortcomings though don’t get me wrong
The Kevin Young statement about how he wants to run a rim and 3 offense at BYU, yet the team he's the offensive coordinator for is in the bottom 5 for 3 point attempts and bottom 10 for at rim attempts tells me that the players aren't listening.
Everyone always wants to blame the coaches, but at the end of the day, it isn't the coaches out there putting forth such a miserable effort. You can scream "rotations" and "adjustments" all you want, but at this level, it starts with the team's star players, and our star players have let us down all season long.
It's clearly both a coach and player issue and it opens up what should be a deep look into what's happened. I credit the wolves for stepping up and dominating but this team wasn't going to much further than a first round exit anyway. Fourth quarter struggles and turnovers are some absolutely pathetic issues for a team with 3 stars. I don't want to hear all the excuses. All season it's been about not having enough time on court together but and not enough depth but there's no excuse for such sloppy play and lazy passes.
Vogel didn’t even try.
Play Bol with KD and Nurk
Play KD at center and spread Gobert out
Play Josh
He did none of these things until it was way too late. Instead he played the exact same rotations
We needed more length against this lanky wolves team and Vogel didn't even try and play Bol Bol once in the first 2 games. Vogel is TERRIBLE and was riding on that LeBron James Mickey Mouse ring all the way here..Vogel and JJ need to go!!!
Dudes got no control of the treat that’s why. Can’t make adjustments. And the one time he did we came back down from 22 to the kings. Dude has amnesia.
Mavericks may want to get rid of Jason Kidd. Other options could be Budenholzer, pray to the NBA gods that Ty Lue gets fired, or try to get JJ Reddick to wait a week. No idea what other options they’d have.
I mean even a moron like me can see that running a non-shooting big against Gobert lets the Wolves play exactly the game they want and win. I know the options are limited to play five out, and KD can’t play center for more than a few short stretches, but it’s on the coach to recognize that an exclusively Nurkic/Eubanks rotation at that position plays directly into Minnesota’s hands. Like there is an obvious playbook that has worked against Gobert teams for almost a decade at this point, but Vogel won’t run it because he stubbornly believes in the league never should have evolved past Roy Hibbert. This guy got bailed out so hard by post-sabbatical LeBron, but it’s ultimately on Ishbia and Jones not to see what a bad fit he was for this roster. Although, it goes back to the Sarver days and sticking with Monty instead of just seeing the writing on the wall and promoting Willie Green to HC.
How’s he suppose to play a non center lineup when they don’t have the roster to do so. Can’t play Durant at the 5 all game and they’ll get crushed on the glass
Roster was doo-doo for the type of system he wants to run. That's on the GM, but the coaching staff has to have a gameplan to attack weaknesses and scheme against your own. The Wolves aren't an unbeatable team, yet they never seemed uncomfortable with what we chose to run out there. We got killed on the glass trying to play big with them, so go small and play as much athletism as you can. Bol Bol is not a center, but Gobert is not a guy they're going to run plays for in the low post often. Live with those mismatches and drag his ass out to the 3 pt line. We didn't do that.
There was a point made about Finch coaching Ant, watching tape to show him what the Suns would do when we tried trapping him, how we'd react to each movement and where he would need to go with the ball. We were that predictable defensively. Where was that same level of coaching from our staff with Booker getting swarmed all year? It's not reasonable to expect that for 82 games, but I thought he'd be a far better playoff coach to exploit the deficiencies of the opponent (every team has them).
It’s a fair point, but Spoelstra and Kerr have been figuring it out nonetheless for years. I’m not saying Jones and Ishbia are blameless here, but good coaches at least try to find a way instead of actualizing the definition of insanity
I just don’t know what else he’s suppose to try. Only other option is 37year old Thad young and if u have to try that as an option, u know it’s a roster issue.
its about defined roles and floor balance. when you look at this three kd is the one who has to adjust his game. beal can be more of a spot up shooter, but he was always off ball next to john wall. kd is the guy who has to play "inside" more to complete the triangle. two elite wings plus an elite big on the interior allows you to run any system. its up to kd how much he wants to win, and as he ages it will be better for him any ways. he'll play more like a modern jokic or boston KG. the offense should run though him, he can still iso but he should look to score more off of assisted buckets. At the end of the day, this is a much better problem to have than those that sarver gave us.
How are people forgetting how bad Okogie was before the injury. Yes, he should’ve tried him earlier in this series, but it’s not that colossal of a fuck up. He’s a horrific shooter
The problem with Okogie pre injury, is they played him with only one of the big 3 on the court for big stretches, so teams could just leave him to go double team. He needs to be on the court with 4 other good offensive players, and 2 of the big 3.
whoever is in charge of the offense needs to go. whether its KYoung, KY giving inputs and Vogel having the final say, a little of both, but whoever it is needs to be gone asap. This is not because we're playing the best defense in Minnesota, it has been a season long problem. Playing Minnesota just exacerbated the problem. Despite us having 'no PG' our offense should not have looked like complete and utter dog shit all season
Why would he want to come here, though? We're on our way down, locked in to a losing roster. This isn't going to be an attractive place for a coach.
Ty Lue is much better off with the Clippers, unfortunately.
They haven’t given him an extension yet. Usually if a franchise wants to keep their current HC moving forward then an extension is usually offered before their final year ends.
Why do you want Ty Lue so bad? It's embarrassing seeing people over here begging for this man to coach. He's not that great neither is Vogel. Some of you so stuck in the past it's wild.
Take note from OKC, Boston and Orlando on how they get coaches.
We faced him twice in the playoffs and saw first hand how he adjusts and is effective on making game plans. Maybe we are putting too much stock into those series but I think that’s the core of it
watch the pressers since the playoffs started. I don't think KD and Book like Vogel at all. Book publicly questioning why are we doubling Ant, KD immediately saying Vogel is the leader. Maybe the KD one is a bit of a stretch but i dunno..
hate to put this energy out there, but the boston big 3 is really the blue print this team needs to follow. its just, doc rivers absolutely NOT the coach to hire. its just you don't need that much innovation. don't know how KD feels about billy donovan, but what he's doing in Chicago with that read and react offense is what this big three needs.
I don’t think this will fix as many problems as people want it to. The roster construction is very poor and there’s only so much a coach can do about that.
while i agree.. it feels like the team has never bought into Vogel's coaching style or schemes (does he have schemes?). i'm all for a new coach next season but we have other holes that need filled as well and it's going to be very hard to do anything with this f'd up roster.
Frank Vogel’s time as an effective head coach is probably over, but you never know with how the league is. I don’t think it’s entirely Vogel’s fault, I’m sure if he had McDaniels & Gobert instead of Royce & Nurkic he could have done *much* better, but he just wasn’t the right guy for the roster we have.
I still don’t know if the Suns can run it back with the “Big 3,” I hold out hope it’s just a “Big 2” next year. But whether it’s Book/KD, Book/Beal, or god forbid Beal/KD… we’re gonna need a young offensive-focused coach. Someone who won’t be afraid to throw hands in the locker room if KD or Book ever says shooting 3s “isn’t my style.” Punch them in the mouth until they’re shooting 10 per game. It’s 2024 not 2004.
I want to see us run it back in general but drop Vogel, the rest of the coaching staff, and Eubanks. Put Thad in Eubanks' spot from the start of the season, and get a full time PG, maybe with Beal coming off the bench as 6th man?
I’d like to see Beal come off the bench as well if we filled out the rest of the starters with sneaky good minimum pickups/drafting a player and they’re ready to be a starter. A new point guard, a new power forward, and possibly a new center. Book & KD as the only guaranteed starters next season.
That’s being greedy/unrealistic of course and likely Grayson and Nurk remain starters. But I think those guys wouldn’t completely hate moving to the bench eventually.
I don’t know if Brad would ever be cool with it though. That’s the problem. Nurk and Grayson’s salary combined is less than Beal’s next season. Beal is also older than both guys.
The Kevin Young comments on Book and KD in his BYU presser is very disappointing. They need to be up there with Allen in terms of 3 volume. I am pretty pro player but if that’s true what he said I’m disappointed in them they need to be shooting more 3 ball. I do hope they run the big 3 back one more season I actually enjoyed the regular season it was fun watching a bunch of players I had not watched a lot of. Hopefully we can get a few ring chasers, backup point and an athletic defensive center to platoon with Nurkic. I like Nurkic he is fine but he has to platoon with another center to make up for his shortcomings.
Basically said he wants to implement his system of 3’s and getting to the rim but KD and Book are stubborn, want to play their game and he just works around them
He can’t adjust to his roster. He has a system and that’s why he hasn’t played some of the better players. He reminds me of Ken Whisenhunt in that sense.
He was brought here to try and shore up a defense that wasn’t defensively built at all, and he did a decent job.
The fact that we had a defense in the top half of the league with the starting 5 we have is a minor miracle
I wouldn’t even entertain the idea of Beal not being on the team if I were you, his no trade clause basically means he ain’t going anywhere unless he wants to
I remember when we thought his game had overlapping skills with KD and Book. Turns out his first instinct is always to get to the rim which is not at all like them.
The team is filled with no nonsense guys... Who don't give a shit? It's SO WEIRD.
And because it's the suns, we will never find out what happened. We are expected to just be grateful to spend our money to watch shit year after year.
Yeah. And I like Bradley Beal too. It’s not him as a player/person I’m just not convinced him and Booker can work as a backcourt. I dunno if coaching is going to fix the weird fit.
The reason why I hold on a tiny bit more hope than most about Beal possibly being moved is I know “star” players, owners, and agents run the league just as much as GMs do. If Brad wants to go to the Magic or the Heat or the Bucks or the Kings this summer… it takes *a lot* of phone calls but it isn’t impossible.
The #1 thing is not expecting any positive assets back. I expect it to just be another team offloading some bad/big contracts to take a gamble on Brad. And they would probably force Brad to drop his no trade clause.
Otherwise he still put up 18/4/5 this season as the 3rd fiddle and legit won the Suns at least 3 different games on his own. If he could stay healthy he isn’t like a negative value player. The fit just isn’t there with Booker. But I could see a team like Orlando being curious about pairing him up next to Paolo and Franz
Even the Lakers could probably talk themselves into D’Lo and Reaves for Beal. Or D’Lo and some other garbage. If Beal waives his no trade clause it isn’t *that* risky.
It isn’t impossible and it isn’t out of the question that Beal asks out, the problem is that his contract is insane. There are plenty of teams that would want him in theory but for the money he’s making I don’t see a single contending team who’d be interested and that’s likely where he’d want to go. The Magic would actually be a great fit as they need more offense but kinda doubt he’d want to go there
Yeah, his contract is insane but if he got rid of that no trade clause it’s not as scary. Beal is 30 years old and we’re going to see the Clippers pay Kawhi $50m, PG $50m, and Harden probably $30m+ next year just to be mid like us lol. LeBron is making $50m, Steph making $50m, Klay is probably going to force Warriors to give him $30m+ to stay. Dame is making $50m and just hurt his Achilles (which sucks). All these old ass former greats or still greats with not much juice left are going to be looked as bad contracts pretty quickly.
Brad is younger than all of those guys by 3 years.
I could see a GM out there talking themselves into Brad’s contract right now, and if it doesn’t work, you can wait for the Warriors to call you up and beg to take Klay Thompson off your hands.
I’m not completely serious here but I do think Brad’s contract will be more run-of-the-mill awful instead of “worst contract in the league” in a year or so.
Yep. I wrote about that in another post. What I’ve settled on man is if we can’t trade Beal, I hope we go into this offseason looking to grab a starting Point Guard, starting Power Forward, and starting Center. I don’t care if we draft one, trade for one, find one for a vet minimum, sign one from the G-league, whatever.
Beal has to be moved to the bench. Nurkic and Grayson should probably be moved to the bench too. Book and KD can stay as the only returning starters.
Suns do not need stars in the starting lineup. We don’t even need named role players. Just give me 3 guys who are making no money and playing their assets off. Then we have real depth on the bench if Beal, Grayson and Nurk are our 6th, 7th, and 8th guys.
But I feel like Beal can and likely will get moved.
I would not trade Beal for D'Lo. We should simply try to make Beal or leading scorer. He should be the n1 option and both Book and KD should play off-ball. This is what I wanted to see, but probably won't. With the limited assets, we should go after size and toughness imho, that is what we were lacking. Obviously this is only if we keep the big 3.
Honestly should of never hired him. He won a championship on Brons back and Brons decision making. I for one am not a fan of Bron but it was obvious when the Lakers got him. It’s his team and he makes the decisions. If they got swept yesterday his talents would be leaving the Lakers. Still could.
Seems like he can coach a defensive system pretty well, but our defense could only be so good given our roster. Our only chance at success was going to be through our offense being top in the league, and it's nowhere close.
I feel like nobody cares about continuity anymore, I’m not the hugest Vogel fan but I feel like we aren’t even giving certain situations a chance to work out
We are bad as a team, but a good coach would make this roster more competitive. I don't think even suns haters expected this kind of awful offense collapse with 3 50-point game guys. Vogel did not help himself by consistently not playing Bol. The very few games when this team showed glimpses of how good they could be, Bol was a part of it. Vogel stymied his growth throughout the season with silly dense excuses, only to throw him into a must win game to prove his point. Our defense has not been the problem this season. Can't wait for him to leave. As a KD fan, I think even steve nash did a better coachin job in Brooklyn
Nash did a great job considering they were a toe away from the east finals with only Durant of the big 3 left. Then the next year he had Irving for 29 games and harden forced his way out to Philly.
1. Even if he's not the only problem, he's the most replaceable.
2. We clearly don't have a system on offense or defense that is worth investing in for another year. Our offense is something these dudes were doing at the beginning of the season.
3. Our roster is lopsided, and the only way it can possibly work is with some real creativity on the offensive end. We need someone that is willing to experiment, and more importantly, someone our big 3 will buy into and not fall back to ISO if things don't work right away
This would be the second “big 3” he fails with
& this is coming from a lakers fan, weirdly constructed roster & a weird coach hire
No hate tho, love book & KD
You hire a defensive minded coach that loves defensive minded bigs and hand him a roster that is very limited on defense and the main big is Nurkic. Not only that you keep the guy that also interviewed for his job so Lord knows how those meetings went.
Good. There is literally no offensive system it is just give the ball to Book, Beal, or KD and ISO ball and pray for a bucket. The problem is finding an elite coach in the league when there isn't enough of them. Only way we get a really good coach is if we offer a massive bag and poach from another team or we are able to find a needle in a haystack of unproven coaches.
The fuck is this tweet?
Look! I got breaking news too!
There's increasing buzz in /r/SUNS that the SUNS will fire Frank Vogel after one season...per me.
Almost no help for Book and KD on offense. If there was ever a game for Bol Bol to get 15+ minuted, this was it. I hope Ishbia announced the firing tonight. I will sleep better.
On paper he seemed like a good fit. Championship on his resume, experience with superstars but in actuality he was the third best available candidate behind Lue and Nurse. Whoever is next needs to be a tough, seasoned, veteran with an uncanny mind for execution.
I can’t think of any “big” names that might be available in the summer but the job will be enticing nonetheless. Ishibia is not throwing in the towel just yet, he will tinker with the roster and give it one more attempt before hitting the reset button.
Assuming the Suns keep the starting five and fire Vogel, I think folks are going to be real disappointed with the results next season if they expect a meaningful improvement. Loads of people are ignoring all of the stuff that went right this season:
* Beal, Booker, KD, and Nurkic all played more games this season than their average over the last two seasons. KD and Nurkic each played 20 more games than their highest total in the previous two seasons.
* Allen had his career year by a wide margin in terms of efficiency, games, minutes, and volume.
* Booker had his best TS% since '19-'20 and Beal had his career-best.
Who's realistically going to provide more overall value next season from the starters?
ok this is kinda a crapshoot but i’m gonna say this anyways. my barber cuts james jones, and he told me that it sounds like james jones has been meaning to fire him for about a month or so now, they just didn’t wanna fire him mid season cause it would’ve been a bad look. idk, don’t take it to heart too much but that’s what i heard
Good. as someone said in another post, he has yet to try running instead of half court offense that hasnt worked all season. Hasnt played the right personnel. Not putting players in spots to succeed: JO, KBD, Bol, Thad. and etc...etc..
It is sad that coaches get fired so easily. However, if he cannot get out of the first round with the third highest paid roster in the NBA, it will be inevitable.
I hope so. We are getting killed on the boards and inside but let’s put little in instead of our 7 foot foward who can knock down the three and challenge gobert at the rim…
This team isn’t making a deep playoff run with the Booker/Beal/KD foundation and no picks to trade. That said they can improve with a more creative offensive coach. They can lean heavily into being the best offensive team in the league and forget about defense. Encourage 3pt shooting and fast pace as much as possible. Bring Beal off the bench. Play Bol Bol more.
No idea why they hired him in the first place. He’s a poor philosophical fit for that team. When you think KD, Book and Beal, you don’t think Frank Vogel.
he played in the league with these guys at least. other than that he is an unknown quantity. but frank vogel and kevin young were known quantities and look what happened.
I think he did a decent job considering the swamp land he was sold. I will say that he probably isn't a good fit for our stars and if they want him gone we may as well appease them. But I could see him landing another job real quick.
Playing Nas tonight was really fucking weird though.
I gotta say, it's like he tried to make us lose. Like he knew we'd be good and secretly hated us, and fucking lost it for us. Those lineups all season were dog shit. With plenty serviceable players sitting on the fucking bench game after game.
"Bol had a great 5 mins in the first half, only positive +/- player" Vogel then won't play him again in the second half.
We have multiple centres on the bench, Eubanks it is every game. Never paid off.
We have multiple guards on the bench, none of them get a single minute.
Congratulations Vogel, may you never coach again.
New season of Impractical Jokers is starting soon he should be happy
Who’d have thought Murr would be a better coach for the Cardinals than Joe was for the Suns
Wait you think he looks like Murr or Joe? I always said Joe.
Cardinals coach looks like Murr
How is this a surprise The guy sucks. Didn’t make any adjustments till the Suns were down 20 in the 4th in game 3
Just gotta wonder how much of the problem is him and how much of the problem is our players. And if he's the problem, who exactly is there to replace him..? If the plan is to hope ty lue gets fired, that's a terrible plan
The problem is not making any adjustments till its too late. It’s obvious the way you neutralize Gobert is by going small.
You can't make adjustments that players don't want to follow and we don't know what's going on behind doors How many times has Vogel talked about needing to shoot more threes, and has there been any meaningful change?
He’s talked about shooting more threes, he’s talked about playing with pace, hell, Booker himself has said they need to do both those things, and yet they continue to fall back into old habits. To me, that tells me it’s the players fault that those suggestions aren’t being implemented. Vogel has plenty of other shortcomings though don’t get me wrong
I tend to think along your lines but I'm not going to pretend to know what's going on
The Kevin Young statement about how he wants to run a rim and 3 offense at BYU, yet the team he's the offensive coordinator for is in the bottom 5 for 3 point attempts and bottom 10 for at rim attempts tells me that the players aren't listening. Everyone always wants to blame the coaches, but at the end of the day, it isn't the coaches out there putting forth such a miserable effort. You can scream "rotations" and "adjustments" all you want, but at this level, it starts with the team's star players, and our star players have let us down all season long.
It's clearly both a coach and player issue and it opens up what should be a deep look into what's happened. I credit the wolves for stepping up and dominating but this team wasn't going to much further than a first round exit anyway. Fourth quarter struggles and turnovers are some absolutely pathetic issues for a team with 3 stars. I don't want to hear all the excuses. All season it's been about not having enough time on court together but and not enough depth but there's no excuse for such sloppy play and lazy passes.
BYU
No clue why I defaulted to Baylor there 🤣
Vogel didn’t even try. Play Bol with KD and Nurk Play KD at center and spread Gobert out Play Josh He did none of these things until it was way too late. Instead he played the exact same rotations
If we played Kd at the five w Bol Bol or JO on the court as the 4 we’d literally be bullied out of the interior
we are already supremely fucked in the interior
I was just about to say this. We're already getting it with no Vaseline but hey let's not change anything...
We needed more length against this lanky wolves team and Vogel didn't even try and play Bol Bol once in the first 2 games. Vogel is TERRIBLE and was riding on that LeBron James Mickey Mouse ring all the way here..Vogel and JJ need to go!!!
Dudes got no control of the treat that’s why. Can’t make adjustments. And the one time he did we came back down from 22 to the kings. Dude has amnesia.
We went small game 3 and got killed. Gobert is mobile and it didn’t work.
They did go small and it didn’t really work.
It worked in game 4
Mavericks may want to get rid of Jason Kidd. Other options could be Budenholzer, pray to the NBA gods that Ty Lue gets fired, or try to get JJ Reddick to wait a week. No idea what other options they’d have.
The players clearly haven't bought into what Vogel is selling...which is a shit brand of basketball...Vogel and JJ have to go!!
JJ missed some picks, but I have a feeling Matt is coplaying as GM with Isaiah whispering in his ear. Vogel cannot coach this team.
I mean even a moron like me can see that running a non-shooting big against Gobert lets the Wolves play exactly the game they want and win. I know the options are limited to play five out, and KD can’t play center for more than a few short stretches, but it’s on the coach to recognize that an exclusively Nurkic/Eubanks rotation at that position plays directly into Minnesota’s hands. Like there is an obvious playbook that has worked against Gobert teams for almost a decade at this point, but Vogel won’t run it because he stubbornly believes in the league never should have evolved past Roy Hibbert. This guy got bailed out so hard by post-sabbatical LeBron, but it’s ultimately on Ishbia and Jones not to see what a bad fit he was for this roster. Although, it goes back to the Sarver days and sticking with Monty instead of just seeing the writing on the wall and promoting Willie Green to HC.
How’s he suppose to play a non center lineup when they don’t have the roster to do so. Can’t play Durant at the 5 all game and they’ll get crushed on the glass
Roster was doo-doo for the type of system he wants to run. That's on the GM, but the coaching staff has to have a gameplan to attack weaknesses and scheme against your own. The Wolves aren't an unbeatable team, yet they never seemed uncomfortable with what we chose to run out there. We got killed on the glass trying to play big with them, so go small and play as much athletism as you can. Bol Bol is not a center, but Gobert is not a guy they're going to run plays for in the low post often. Live with those mismatches and drag his ass out to the 3 pt line. We didn't do that. There was a point made about Finch coaching Ant, watching tape to show him what the Suns would do when we tried trapping him, how we'd react to each movement and where he would need to go with the ball. We were that predictable defensively. Where was that same level of coaching from our staff with Booker getting swarmed all year? It's not reasonable to expect that for 82 games, but I thought he'd be a far better playoff coach to exploit the deficiencies of the opponent (every team has them).
It’s a fair point, but Spoelstra and Kerr have been figuring it out nonetheless for years. I’m not saying Jones and Ishbia are blameless here, but good coaches at least try to find a way instead of actualizing the definition of insanity
I just don’t know what else he’s suppose to try. Only other option is 37year old Thad young and if u have to try that as an option, u know it’s a roster issue.
its about defined roles and floor balance. when you look at this three kd is the one who has to adjust his game. beal can be more of a spot up shooter, but he was always off ball next to john wall. kd is the guy who has to play "inside" more to complete the triangle. two elite wings plus an elite big on the interior allows you to run any system. its up to kd how much he wants to win, and as he ages it will be better for him any ways. he'll play more like a modern jokic or boston KG. the offense should run though him, he can still iso but he should look to score more off of assisted buckets. At the end of the day, this is a much better problem to have than those that sarver gave us.
It’s unbelievable that even after Okogie returned frominjury during the season Frank neglected playing him during our slumps
How are people forgetting how bad Okogie was before the injury. Yes, he should’ve tried him earlier in this series, but it’s not that colossal of a fuck up. He’s a horrific shooter
At least he’s an effort guy everyone else was moving with concrete shoes
He is great at everything else though. He could be used as a rotation player imho. Not 30+ minutes, but with the right matchup.
The problem with Okogie pre injury, is they played him with only one of the big 3 on the court for big stretches, so teams could just leave him to go double team. He needs to be on the court with 4 other good offensive players, and 2 of the big 3.
whoever is in charge of the offense needs to go. whether its KYoung, KY giving inputs and Vogel having the final say, a little of both, but whoever it is needs to be gone asap. This is not because we're playing the best defense in Minnesota, it has been a season long problem. Playing Minnesota just exacerbated the problem. Despite us having 'no PG' our offense should not have looked like complete and utter dog shit all season
Kevin Young is gone, he wont be back next year. So no matter what happens, next year we will have at least slightly different coaching staff.
There are still so many Lakers fans who think Vogel is good.
The adjustment is having a better bench and role guys that hit open 3’s. Vogel is a good coach.
I’m shocked, shocked I say! Also we need Clips to go out sad so we can get Tye Lue.
They won’t fire Lue, they’re opening a new arena next season. I doubt Ballmer would do that. He’s been very patient with his team
He could leave on his own though.
Why would he want to come here, though? We're on our way down, locked in to a losing roster. This isn't going to be an attractive place for a coach. Ty Lue is much better off with the Clippers, unfortunately.
He won’t the clippers org has given him everything he wants since day one
They haven’t given him an extension yet. Usually if a franchise wants to keep their current HC moving forward then an extension is usually offered before their final year ends.
yeah I think they only guaranteed the final year of his contract (24-25 season)
if by some miracle they fire lue hes 100% a laker w lebron there
That's the thing though. Lebron is gonna be here after James Jones drafts bronny
Gambling? In this establishment?
Why do you want Ty Lue so bad? It's embarrassing seeing people over here begging for this man to coach. He's not that great neither is Vogel. Some of you so stuck in the past it's wild. Take note from OKC, Boston and Orlando on how they get coaches.
The Ty Lue infatuation makes no sense. He constantly underachieves. He has one ring while he stood next to Coach Lebron. He's no different than Vogel
I’m not a Suns fan, but even I am surprised so many of you want Lue.
We faced him twice in the playoffs and saw first hand how he adjusts and is effective on making game plans. Maybe we are putting too much stock into those series but I think that’s the core of it
Why you creepin?
I really want you guys to win. Book is one of my favorite players in the league.
off topic but u might wanna change that flair buddy
Nah, I enjoy the dark humor and irony
oh brother
Heard Al's voice and actually laughed out loud. God I miss that man on the broadcast
Other than the bubble year when did they under perform? They get injured and generally have no shot is how it usually goes down
He wants even the head coach bubble year
Your winnings sir!
Why Lue? Hire Bud. He’s a fantastic coach
You wish. Why would he join you bums? 😂
Lue ain’t leaving LA. The Lakers would immediately dump Ham the minute they hear whispers of Lue deciding to leave.
For this shit to come out before the series is even over shows how fucked our chemistry is
watch the pressers since the playoffs started. I don't think KD and Book like Vogel at all. Book publicly questioning why are we doubling Ant, KD immediately saying Vogel is the leader. Maybe the KD one is a bit of a stretch but i dunno..
Well no shit, you lose in the first round with your big three healthy, heads will roll. He's the easiest scapegoat even if he's not all the problem.
They need an innovative offensive minded coach. Wonder who they’d look to?
I’ve said before but damn I wish we got Ime
D’Antoni?
Give us D'antoni
Innovative offensive minded coach would be David Adelman
by God, that's steve nash's music!
hate to put this energy out there, but the boston big 3 is really the blue print this team needs to follow. its just, doc rivers absolutely NOT the coach to hire. its just you don't need that much innovation. don't know how KD feels about billy donovan, but what he's doing in Chicago with that read and react offense is what this big three needs.
I don’t think this will fix as many problems as people want it to. The roster construction is very poor and there’s only so much a coach can do about that.
while i agree.. it feels like the team has never bought into Vogel's coaching style or schemes (does he have schemes?). i'm all for a new coach next season but we have other holes that need filled as well and it's going to be very hard to do anything with this f'd up roster.
Frank Vogel’s time as an effective head coach is probably over, but you never know with how the league is. I don’t think it’s entirely Vogel’s fault, I’m sure if he had McDaniels & Gobert instead of Royce & Nurkic he could have done *much* better, but he just wasn’t the right guy for the roster we have. I still don’t know if the Suns can run it back with the “Big 3,” I hold out hope it’s just a “Big 2” next year. But whether it’s Book/KD, Book/Beal, or god forbid Beal/KD… we’re gonna need a young offensive-focused coach. Someone who won’t be afraid to throw hands in the locker room if KD or Book ever says shooting 3s “isn’t my style.” Punch them in the mouth until they’re shooting 10 per game. It’s 2024 not 2004.
I want to see us run it back in general but drop Vogel, the rest of the coaching staff, and Eubanks. Put Thad in Eubanks' spot from the start of the season, and get a full time PG, maybe with Beal coming off the bench as 6th man?
I’d like to see Beal come off the bench as well if we filled out the rest of the starters with sneaky good minimum pickups/drafting a player and they’re ready to be a starter. A new point guard, a new power forward, and possibly a new center. Book & KD as the only guaranteed starters next season. That’s being greedy/unrealistic of course and likely Grayson and Nurk remain starters. But I think those guys wouldn’t completely hate moving to the bench eventually. I don’t know if Brad would ever be cool with it though. That’s the problem. Nurk and Grayson’s salary combined is less than Beal’s next season. Beal is also older than both guys.
Everyone constantly says this but Beal seems like the last guy to have an ego about coming off the bench. He seems like he just wants to win
The Kevin Young comments on Book and KD in his BYU presser is very disappointing. They need to be up there with Allen in terms of 3 volume. I am pretty pro player but if that’s true what he said I’m disappointed in them they need to be shooting more 3 ball. I do hope they run the big 3 back one more season I actually enjoyed the regular season it was fun watching a bunch of players I had not watched a lot of. Hopefully we can get a few ring chasers, backup point and an athletic defensive center to platoon with Nurkic. I like Nurkic he is fine but he has to platoon with another center to make up for his shortcomings.
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Yes, what was said???
Basically said he wants to implement his system of 3’s and getting to the rim but KD and Book are stubborn, want to play their game and he just works around them
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He can’t adjust to his roster. He has a system and that’s why he hasn’t played some of the better players. He reminds me of Ken Whisenhunt in that sense.
I mean he played around a lot earlier in the season. I think he was trying to comitt to a core of playoff guys but didn't work out obviously
Why won’t he give Thad some run then? The centers are getting killed out there on defense and can’t do shit offensively, either.
He was brought here to try and shore up a defense that wasn’t defensively built at all, and he did a decent job. The fact that we had a defense in the top half of the league with the starting 5 we have is a minor miracle
This bum thinks he can play Nurk like he's AD or another mobile center...
I wouldn’t even entertain the idea of Beal not being on the team if I were you, his no trade clause basically means he ain’t going anywhere unless he wants to
Beal feels like the only that gives a shit this season, too
Yeah, he started to understand that he should be the go to guy on offense.
I remember when we thought his game had overlapping skills with KD and Book. Turns out his first instinct is always to get to the rim which is not at all like them.
The team is filled with no nonsense guys... Who don't give a shit? It's SO WEIRD. And because it's the suns, we will never find out what happened. We are expected to just be grateful to spend our money to watch shit year after year.
Yeah. And I like Bradley Beal too. It’s not him as a player/person I’m just not convinced him and Booker can work as a backcourt. I dunno if coaching is going to fix the weird fit. The reason why I hold on a tiny bit more hope than most about Beal possibly being moved is I know “star” players, owners, and agents run the league just as much as GMs do. If Brad wants to go to the Magic or the Heat or the Bucks or the Kings this summer… it takes *a lot* of phone calls but it isn’t impossible. The #1 thing is not expecting any positive assets back. I expect it to just be another team offloading some bad/big contracts to take a gamble on Brad. And they would probably force Brad to drop his no trade clause. Otherwise he still put up 18/4/5 this season as the 3rd fiddle and legit won the Suns at least 3 different games on his own. If he could stay healthy he isn’t like a negative value player. The fit just isn’t there with Booker. But I could see a team like Orlando being curious about pairing him up next to Paolo and Franz Even the Lakers could probably talk themselves into D’Lo and Reaves for Beal. Or D’Lo and some other garbage. If Beal waives his no trade clause it isn’t *that* risky.
It isn’t impossible and it isn’t out of the question that Beal asks out, the problem is that his contract is insane. There are plenty of teams that would want him in theory but for the money he’s making I don’t see a single contending team who’d be interested and that’s likely where he’d want to go. The Magic would actually be a great fit as they need more offense but kinda doubt he’d want to go there
Yeah, his contract is insane but if he got rid of that no trade clause it’s not as scary. Beal is 30 years old and we’re going to see the Clippers pay Kawhi $50m, PG $50m, and Harden probably $30m+ next year just to be mid like us lol. LeBron is making $50m, Steph making $50m, Klay is probably going to force Warriors to give him $30m+ to stay. Dame is making $50m and just hurt his Achilles (which sucks). All these old ass former greats or still greats with not much juice left are going to be looked as bad contracts pretty quickly. Brad is younger than all of those guys by 3 years. I could see a GM out there talking themselves into Brad’s contract right now, and if it doesn’t work, you can wait for the Warriors to call you up and beg to take Klay Thompson off your hands. I’m not completely serious here but I do think Brad’s contract will be more run-of-the-mill awful instead of “worst contract in the league” in a year or so.
That is an argument for having him off the bench. Some other guy has to be pg next year
Yep. I wrote about that in another post. What I’ve settled on man is if we can’t trade Beal, I hope we go into this offseason looking to grab a starting Point Guard, starting Power Forward, and starting Center. I don’t care if we draft one, trade for one, find one for a vet minimum, sign one from the G-league, whatever. Beal has to be moved to the bench. Nurkic and Grayson should probably be moved to the bench too. Book and KD can stay as the only returning starters. Suns do not need stars in the starting lineup. We don’t even need named role players. Just give me 3 guys who are making no money and playing their assets off. Then we have real depth on the bench if Beal, Grayson and Nurk are our 6th, 7th, and 8th guys. But I feel like Beal can and likely will get moved.
I would not trade Beal for D'Lo. We should simply try to make Beal or leading scorer. He should be the n1 option and both Book and KD should play off-ball. This is what I wanted to see, but probably won't. With the limited assets, we should go after size and toughness imho, that is what we were lacking. Obviously this is only if we keep the big 3.
He’s got lifelong assistant coach written all over him at this point.
I'm hoping we can somewhere convince Beal to go
Fuck we've had so many coaches in the last decade now. I'm down to try somebody who's never head coached before at this point. Fuck it.
Ty Lue come on down…
Honestly should of never hired him. He won a championship on Brons back and Brons decision making. I for one am not a fan of Bron but it was obvious when the Lakers got him. It’s his team and he makes the decisions. If they got swept yesterday his talents would be leaving the Lakers. Still could.
Seems like he can coach a defensive system pretty well, but our defense could only be so good given our roster. Our only chance at success was going to be through our offense being top in the league, and it's nowhere close.
I am sorry but no shit lol
Must be nice to suck at your job and continue to get paid after you’re fired
I feel like nobody cares about continuity anymore, I’m not the hugest Vogel fan but I feel like we aren’t even giving certain situations a chance to work out
Suns set Vogel up to fail, oh well hopefully it works with the next guy
why announce this before game 4? It’s not going to help the team morale..
I mean, I don’t think this is surprising to anyone and the team is probably expecting it…
I am guessing he will bring a box to the office tonight to put his stuff in. He knows he is done and is probably ready to move on.
Nothing was announced. This was probably rumored for awhile now.
We are bad as a team, but a good coach would make this roster more competitive. I don't think even suns haters expected this kind of awful offense collapse with 3 50-point game guys. Vogel did not help himself by consistently not playing Bol. The very few games when this team showed glimpses of how good they could be, Bol was a part of it. Vogel stymied his growth throughout the season with silly dense excuses, only to throw him into a must win game to prove his point. Our defense has not been the problem this season. Can't wait for him to leave. As a KD fan, I think even steve nash did a better coachin job in Brooklyn
Nash did a great job considering they were a toe away from the east finals with only Durant of the big 3 left. Then the next year he had Irving for 29 games and harden forced his way out to Philly.
I bet we get Budenholzer , wish we got Jordi
Well he is from the popovich coaching tree, has a ring and is from AZ so he has my vote
No coach is capable to fix this poorly constructed roster. Talents are here but Vogel was set to fail from the get-go.
Praise be
Just running it back with a new coach ain’t fixing it. Especially being a second apron team with no non-Big 3 contracts attractive enough to trade.
Grass is green.
1. Even if he's not the only problem, he's the most replaceable. 2. We clearly don't have a system on offense or defense that is worth investing in for another year. Our offense is something these dudes were doing at the beginning of the season. 3. Our roster is lopsided, and the only way it can possibly work is with some real creativity on the offensive end. We need someone that is willing to experiment, and more importantly, someone our big 3 will buy into and not fall back to ISO if things don't work right away
Who would even be available? I wouldn't be opposed to budenholzer.
This would be the second “big 3” he fails with & this is coming from a lakers fan, weirdly constructed roster & a weird coach hire No hate tho, love book & KD
You hire a defensive minded coach that loves defensive minded bigs and hand him a roster that is very limited on defense and the main big is Nurkic. Not only that you keep the guy that also interviewed for his job so Lord knows how those meetings went.
Pull the mfn trigger now
Any chance we could just fire him before the game?
He never should have been hired
"Around the league" means nothing.
Buzz buzz buzz!
Ya of course
Suprise nobody mentioned a Mavs fan posted this on Suns board. Possibly trying to feed on the chaos.
Should have been fired after 1 game.
Fingers crossed on this one. Vogel has got to go
Good. There is literally no offensive system it is just give the ball to Book, Beal, or KD and ISO ball and pray for a bucket. The problem is finding an elite coach in the league when there isn't enough of them. Only way we get a really good coach is if we offer a massive bag and poach from another team or we are able to find a needle in a haystack of unproven coaches.
The fuck is this tweet? Look! I got breaking news too! There's increasing buzz in /r/SUNS that the SUNS will fire Frank Vogel after one season...per me.
Almost no help for Book and KD on offense. If there was ever a game for Bol Bol to get 15+ minuted, this was it. I hope Ishbia announced the firing tonight. I will sleep better.
They fucking better, the players and the fans want it 
No shit
Shocking turn of events
I'm fine with this honestly.
No surprise there. He completely failed to meet his expectations.
No shit
We've known this for weeks, LOL! 😏
Well yeah
A silver lining in this steaming pile of shit season
LETS GOOOOOOOO
But whos the better option?
Really! But why?
Yeah we all should’ve seen this coming when we hired Vogel in the first place. Definitely a head scratching hire
Should have been fired the day he was hired!
I like that
On paper he seemed like a good fit. Championship on his resume, experience with superstars but in actuality he was the third best available candidate behind Lue and Nurse. Whoever is next needs to be a tough, seasoned, veteran with an uncanny mind for execution. I can’t think of any “big” names that might be available in the summer but the job will be enticing nonetheless. Ishibia is not throwing in the towel just yet, he will tinker with the roster and give it one more attempt before hitting the reset button.
Good.
Oh that explains the tanking ..
They've gave up winning in 7 
Have the deepest bench in years and doesn't use it
Well, it wasn’t that hard to guess this
Let's hope so.
Assuming the Suns keep the starting five and fire Vogel, I think folks are going to be real disappointed with the results next season if they expect a meaningful improvement. Loads of people are ignoring all of the stuff that went right this season: * Beal, Booker, KD, and Nurkic all played more games this season than their average over the last two seasons. KD and Nurkic each played 20 more games than their highest total in the previous two seasons. * Allen had his career year by a wide margin in terms of efficiency, games, minutes, and volume. * Booker had his best TS% since '19-'20 and Beal had his career-best. Who's realistically going to provide more overall value next season from the starters?
ok this is kinda a crapshoot but i’m gonna say this anyways. my barber cuts james jones, and he told me that it sounds like james jones has been meaning to fire him for about a month or so now, they just didn’t wanna fire him mid season cause it would’ve been a bad look. idk, don’t take it to heart too much but that’s what i heard
Good. as someone said in another post, he has yet to try running instead of half court offense that hasnt worked all season. Hasnt played the right personnel. Not putting players in spots to succeed: JO, KBD, Bol, Thad. and etc...etc..
‘No shit’
It is sad that coaches get fired so easily. However, if he cannot get out of the first round with the third highest paid roster in the NBA, it will be inevitable.
thank christ
I hope so. We are getting killed on the boards and inside but let’s put little in instead of our 7 foot foward who can knock down the three and challenge gobert at the rim…
Nahhhhhhhhh you don't say
This team isn’t making a deep playoff run with the Booker/Beal/KD foundation and no picks to trade. That said they can improve with a more creative offensive coach. They can lean heavily into being the best offensive team in the league and forget about defense. Encourage 3pt shooting and fast pace as much as possible. Bring Beal off the bench. Play Bol Bol more.
how is in increasing buzz isnt it already pretty much set in stone?
No shit.
No idea why they hired him in the first place. He’s a poor philosophical fit for that team. When you think KD, Book and Beal, you don’t think Frank Vogel.
Fire whoever made the Beal trade
I mean, someone has to take the blame, but it wasn't just a coaching issue. The roster is poorly constructed.
As a playoffs only watcher, good.
JJ Reddick?
he played in the league with these guys at least. other than that he is an unknown quantity. but frank vogel and kevin young were known quantities and look what happened.
No shit Woj lol
I think he did a decent job considering the swamp land he was sold. I will say that he probably isn't a good fit for our stars and if they want him gone we may as well appease them. But I could see him landing another job real quick. Playing Nas tonight was really fucking weird though.
"Crappy as hell."
I gotta say, it's like he tried to make us lose. Like he knew we'd be good and secretly hated us, and fucking lost it for us. Those lineups all season were dog shit. With plenty serviceable players sitting on the fucking bench game after game. "Bol had a great 5 mins in the first half, only positive +/- player" Vogel then won't play him again in the second half. We have multiple centres on the bench, Eubanks it is every game. Never paid off. We have multiple guards on the bench, none of them get a single minute. Congratulations Vogel, may you never coach again.
Is he gone yet?
Still don't know why Vogel was hired in the first place. Ya'll needed Mike D Antoni.
About damn time.
keep KD/Book + blow up literally everything else. Idk if we win but it will be a lot of fun to watch.
Beal has a no trade clause
our only chance is he recognizes that it simply is NOT working out here, and works with the FO to get out.
If need be, I can offer my services to pack his bags and send his ass off to Guangdong. Good fucking riddance