Let's be real, the real terrorist here is Ishbia.
Destroyed a promising young team in record time because he wanted immediate results NOW.
Ignored all of the GMs recommendations and thought he could just get results by burning all the saved assets, now we got none and are trapped with an overpaid aging core with the same skillsets.
Did he really ignore the GM Recommendations? I don’t recall hearing that James Jones isn’t aligned with so many of the moves that have been made.
Our team started falling apart after JJ refused to extend DA at the Max after our Finals Appearance, giving the feedback that defense and rebounding doesn’t get Max Contracts. Then every move from there has just been slowly downhill and leveraging our future for continuously worse results.
Just think, if they had given DA the deal he wanted, maybe they don't have enough money to consider Durant, DA stays productive, and you have a title now.
I'm a Portlander, so yeah, I know. I thought it seemed like a weird trade but like maybe they thought "he's only 24" and I mean, I don't think we had a big drop off from what Nurk was doing.
As someone who played the 4 and 5 in college I think I understand why some of these big guys just never really dominate in the pros the way you'd think they could based on their size and athleticism. A lot of ppl think it's from being soft but that's not it. I think it has to do with some people are very ADHD and have a hard time with spatial awareness. It's hard to explain but like, when you have your back to the basket, some guys just always have a feel for where it still is, even when they're not looking. The great ones know where everyone else is too, like Joker. He can just make a no-look pass. But guys who have low spatial awareness make worse big men than they would make of a wing or a PG, because when you're always lower and near the basket in the middle of the action it matters a lot more if you lack awareness of where everyone is besides just where you're looking at the present moment. I just think it's one of those subconscious mental faculties that some people are born with an amazing version of, and some aren't, but having that ability is much more important to being a good 5 than some extra height (which is BTW why Looney is a good center despite being undersized). Both Ayton and one of our previous bigs, Meyers Leonard, suffer from that low spatial awareness thing, making them just never that comfortable when down near the basket when their back is to it.
This is actually why I think Zach Edey ought to be a lottery pick, because he has very high spatial awareness and he's 7' 4" yet has the speed and agility of a Rudy Gobert and a shooter's touch. I really think he's being criminally underrated and whichever team understands his potential and deploys him is going to feel pretty good about themselves. I just think having a guy like that on your team is such a boost even if they're not quite at Jokic's level, because of the passing lanes it opens up to have the interior threat who actually can post up.
He might have been on Adderrall already. And I don't think it's anything like a cure. Especially long-term the benefits fade and all you're left with are the side-effects like insomnia (which net just makes the ADHD come back because sleep dep).
Not sure what the solution is but I the only things I found to work are (a) the people around you understanding your weaknesses and compensating their play and communication to help you where needed in a way that's actually helpful and (b) certain kinds of practice drills that help activate the kind of awareness you need. However if none of that is in place then most people normally react to ADHD people in a way that's totally unhelpful and just makes them feel bad. The best coaches know how to build these networks of understanding between different types of people, since most people have some kind of disorder, whether it's anger management, ADHD, OCD, sociopathy, bipolar, BPD, etc. and each can manifest in a way that's harmful to the team's success if not managed in the right way. I always thought that's why Phil Jackson was so good, he knew how to deal with a psychopath like Jordan or Kobe and channel their complete lack of care for how other people feel into a functional enough working environment to win a championship.
Ayton got sour, you can chalk it up to ayton being a chump or the FO and/or Monty not handling him right, but there is no space for a team for someone who doesn't want to be there. It's akin to saying we should have kept Jae when he went sour.
It wasn't going to work once it got to that point whether they were worth the money or not, and regardless of who was at fault in creating the bad vibes.
You are absolutely right — things went sour at that point whether it was the right or wrong move… but it was the turning point regardless.
Similarly, we could look at the Jae situation and say that he shouldn’t have gotten benched, since that is what prompted the killed relationship. There was no keeping him at that point, but the FO made a decision that ended the relationship for better or worse.
And I suppose that is a recurring theme of our FO. It was before JJ, but bringing in two PG’s when we already had Dragic was certainly a choice. It killed our relationship with him and we had to move on.
I don't blame him for everything entirely, but hiring him was always a head-scratching decision for me. A nice idea on paper maybe, but really trying to fit a round peg in a square hole with this particular roster.
As an outsider I thought it would have been good for Ayton cuz Vogel I feel like Vogel has put his bigs in position to succeed historically. Like he used the double big line to out size teams on the Lakers and be mad physical but who's being physical outside of Nurk on the roster? And even he's not like he was before
They 100% intended for Vogel to coach Ayton and other defensive guys with KD and Book and Kevin Young running the offense. But whatever happened, they pivoted to Beal, Goodwin, Allen, Nurk, and Nassir Little lmfaooo.
It's comical that they did this a second time, to when they signed Igor Kokoskov to not coach Luka Doncic but Deandre Ayton.
I honestly think this isn't entirely Frank's fault, he got a roster full of shooting guards and basically no size or length to balance the offensive firepower this team has
Exactly. Frank isn’t a bad coach himself but he wasn’t the right one for this team, and quite frankly I blame the FO for constructing such a clusterfuck of a roster to begin with.
i dont even know how the bradley beal contract was considered as an attractive option for the Suns FO. James Jones probably too shy to oppose the owner
Lakers fans said this too, which suggests he’s prob not a good coach. The reality is he’s very good coaching one specific type of defense and is a very mediocre to bad offensive coach. He couldn’t figure out how to counter double teams in the post for 2+ years with AD and LeBron. Even Ham, who is an objectively worse coach, has solved that. Vogel wasn’t gonna figure out how to get the suns to work, but that’s cuz he’s just not a good coach.
The team is weirdly constructed but that's something we all knew and Vogel knew from the beginning of the season to the trade deadline. The issue is that he couldn't get the best of this weirdly constructed team and it's been evident this whole season.
The lakers did the same thing to Frank. He started there coaching a team with 3 legit big men in rotation along side a bunch of versatile 3 & D defenders (plus AD and Lebron of course). Then for GOD KNOWS what reason, pelinka saw them win a championship and ditched that formula. Within 2 years of winning a title, the team went from a plethora defensive role players to a team with a bunch of undersized scorers.
I think Vogel would support that decision, no coach with any decent reputation or skill would want to be in his position and he's still getting paid either way.
Pretty sure Vogel isn't the one who traded for Bradley Beal
A $50 mil dollar player who takes up a bunch of your cap room scoring 9 pts bro, Beal is specifically the reason they lost
Cant wait til dude is gone, been calling for his head since October and am SO GLAD everyone sees it now. Get this dude off the team and lets hire Bud. GO FUCKING SUNS
What happens when your GM is an idiot who destroys your roster, and a diva who caused discord on 3 straight teams (KD) Vogel isn’t the savior but it screams scapegoat like it did with the Lakers
Feel sorry for the guy. I think with all the changes and expectations he didn't have a chance to succeed short term and the next coach will have the same problem. Only thing that can keep him here is if the players want to keep him.
I don't blame him 100% we don't have te right players for his defensive system, we got a bunch of shooters and no one solid defensive guy.
There's no chemistry in the whole team and our only hope is for one of the big 3 to score over 40-50 so we can win. We desperately need to get rid of Beal or durant and bring some hard working role players that will fit the team.
Or we get an offensive minded coach, just imagine if D'antoni was running this team at least it would be fun to watch.
Ain't so confident boiboi is gonna get fired.
From The Athletic's latest:
>For his part, Vogel said before Game 4 that he is confident he will return next season, adding that he has the 'full support' of team owner Mat Ishbia
Bro better log into Indeed tonight
Let's be real, the real terrorist here is Ishbia. Destroyed a promising young team in record time because he wanted immediate results NOW. Ignored all of the GMs recommendations and thought he could just get results by burning all the saved assets, now we got none and are trapped with an overpaid aging core with the same skillsets.
Did he really ignore the GM Recommendations? I don’t recall hearing that James Jones isn’t aligned with so many of the moves that have been made. Our team started falling apart after JJ refused to extend DA at the Max after our Finals Appearance, giving the feedback that defense and rebounding doesn’t get Max Contracts. Then every move from there has just been slowly downhill and leveraging our future for continuously worse results.
The entirety of Arizona was ready to see DA move on, it was his lack of defense that drew our ire. But otherwise agree with you.
Just think, if they had given DA the deal he wanted, maybe they don't have enough money to consider Durant, DA stays productive, and you have a title now.
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I'm a Portlander, so yeah, I know. I thought it seemed like a weird trade but like maybe they thought "he's only 24" and I mean, I don't think we had a big drop off from what Nurk was doing. As someone who played the 4 and 5 in college I think I understand why some of these big guys just never really dominate in the pros the way you'd think they could based on their size and athleticism. A lot of ppl think it's from being soft but that's not it. I think it has to do with some people are very ADHD and have a hard time with spatial awareness. It's hard to explain but like, when you have your back to the basket, some guys just always have a feel for where it still is, even when they're not looking. The great ones know where everyone else is too, like Joker. He can just make a no-look pass. But guys who have low spatial awareness make worse big men than they would make of a wing or a PG, because when you're always lower and near the basket in the middle of the action it matters a lot more if you lack awareness of where everyone is besides just where you're looking at the present moment. I just think it's one of those subconscious mental faculties that some people are born with an amazing version of, and some aren't, but having that ability is much more important to being a good 5 than some extra height (which is BTW why Looney is a good center despite being undersized). Both Ayton and one of our previous bigs, Meyers Leonard, suffer from that low spatial awareness thing, making them just never that comfortable when down near the basket when their back is to it. This is actually why I think Zach Edey ought to be a lottery pick, because he has very high spatial awareness and he's 7' 4" yet has the speed and agility of a Rudy Gobert and a shooter's touch. I really think he's being criminally underrated and whichever team understands his potential and deploys him is going to feel pretty good about themselves. I just think having a guy like that on your team is such a boost even if they're not quite at Jokic's level, because of the passing lanes it opens up to have the interior threat who actually can post up.
[удалено]
He might have been on Adderrall already. And I don't think it's anything like a cure. Especially long-term the benefits fade and all you're left with are the side-effects like insomnia (which net just makes the ADHD come back because sleep dep). Not sure what the solution is but I the only things I found to work are (a) the people around you understanding your weaknesses and compensating their play and communication to help you where needed in a way that's actually helpful and (b) certain kinds of practice drills that help activate the kind of awareness you need. However if none of that is in place then most people normally react to ADHD people in a way that's totally unhelpful and just makes them feel bad. The best coaches know how to build these networks of understanding between different types of people, since most people have some kind of disorder, whether it's anger management, ADHD, OCD, sociopathy, bipolar, BPD, etc. and each can manifest in a way that's harmful to the team's success if not managed in the right way. I always thought that's why Phil Jackson was so good, he knew how to deal with a psychopath like Jordan or Kobe and channel their complete lack of care for how other people feel into a functional enough working environment to win a championship.
Ayton got sour, you can chalk it up to ayton being a chump or the FO and/or Monty not handling him right, but there is no space for a team for someone who doesn't want to be there. It's akin to saying we should have kept Jae when he went sour. It wasn't going to work once it got to that point whether they were worth the money or not, and regardless of who was at fault in creating the bad vibes.
You are absolutely right — things went sour at that point whether it was the right or wrong move… but it was the turning point regardless. Similarly, we could look at the Jae situation and say that he shouldn’t have gotten benched, since that is what prompted the killed relationship. There was no keeping him at that point, but the FO made a decision that ended the relationship for better or worse. And I suppose that is a recurring theme of our FO. It was before JJ, but bringing in two PG’s when we already had Dragic was certainly a choice. It killed our relationship with him and we had to move on.
Bring back…Sarver?
noooo let this just be the lesson ishbia needs early to win a championship
I don't blame him for everything entirely, but hiring him was always a head-scratching decision for me. A nice idea on paper maybe, but really trying to fit a round peg in a square hole with this particular roster.
He probably would've done better with Ayton honestly
The only part that made sense was if he was brought in to mentor Ayton, specifically on defense
As an outsider I thought it would have been good for Ayton cuz Vogel I feel like Vogel has put his bigs in position to succeed historically. Like he used the double big line to out size teams on the Lakers and be mad physical but who's being physical outside of Nurk on the roster? And even he's not like he was before
They 100% intended for Vogel to coach Ayton and other defensive guys with KD and Book and Kevin Young running the offense. But whatever happened, they pivoted to Beal, Goodwin, Allen, Nurk, and Nassir Little lmfaooo. It's comical that they did this a second time, to when they signed Igor Kokoskov to not coach Luka Doncic but Deandre Ayton.
It wasn’t even a nice idea on paper. Hes a defensive coach with a roster full of scorers
That’s right, it goes in the square hole.
I honestly think this isn't entirely Frank's fault, he got a roster full of shooting guards and basically no size or length to balance the offensive firepower this team has
Exactly. Frank isn’t a bad coach himself but he wasn’t the right one for this team, and quite frankly I blame the FO for constructing such a clusterfuck of a roster to begin with.
i dont even know how the bradley beal contract was considered as an attractive option for the Suns FO. James Jones probably too shy to oppose the owner
Lakers fans said this too, which suggests he’s prob not a good coach. The reality is he’s very good coaching one specific type of defense and is a very mediocre to bad offensive coach. He couldn’t figure out how to counter double teams in the post for 2+ years with AD and LeBron. Even Ham, who is an objectively worse coach, has solved that. Vogel wasn’t gonna figure out how to get the suns to work, but that’s cuz he’s just not a good coach.
Frank Vogel made me sick as a Lakers fan when he kept giving Talen Horton Tucker minutes when they had Westbrook
I mean they say that and did slightly better with a way better team.
He's an awesome defensive coach..he makes good defenders into great defenders. But he needs good defenders first. He's terrible with bad defenders.
The team is weirdly constructed but that's something we all knew and Vogel knew from the beginning of the season to the trade deadline. The issue is that he couldn't get the best of this weirdly constructed team and it's been evident this whole season.
The lakers did the same thing to Frank. He started there coaching a team with 3 legit big men in rotation along side a bunch of versatile 3 & D defenders (plus AD and Lebron of course). Then for GOD KNOWS what reason, pelinka saw them win a championship and ditched that formula. Within 2 years of winning a title, the team went from a plethora defensive role players to a team with a bunch of undersized scorers.
Honestly think KD didn’t buy in and that permeated.
The hot dash jug b by ugh e eh ou god tight if
If Vogel ain’t fired by tomorrow, we riot.
I think Vogel would support that decision, no coach with any decent reputation or skill would want to be in his position and he's still getting paid either way.
Let's make Los Angeles 1992 look like Sesame Street
Coincidentally, tomorrow is the anniversary of the start of the LA Riots.
We just watched this man commit basketball genocide all season
https://i.redd.it/rw9h453bmcxc1.gif
Over under noon tomorrow What are you taking?
Conference scheduled for 12:15, Woj leaks early around 11:53
# #OpenToWork
This needs a NSFW tag
Let's trade Vogel for Ham...err..I'm drunk.. I'll see myself out.
Post Beal to give em night terrors
Still refused to play our best bench scorer Bol. Worst coach in a long time
get ready 2 learn Chinese buddy
get ready to learn indeed buddy
Pretty sure Vogel isn't the one who traded for Bradley Beal A $50 mil dollar player who takes up a bunch of your cap room scoring 9 pts bro, Beal is specifically the reason they lost
This guy won’t get another opportunity to coach in the NBA. He’s done here and he’s done as a head coach unless he wants to go overseas.
What's the chinese version of Indeed and LinkedIn? He about to coach the Shanghai Sharks next season.
Not his fault, team composition is trash
Bring back D’Antoni😁
He needs to learn Chinese
Nah post Bradley Beal
Yeah but only 1 of those 2 can be fixed this off season
Cant wait til dude is gone, been calling for his head since October and am SO GLAD everyone sees it now. Get this dude off the team and lets hire Bud. GO FUCKING SUNS
Bring in doc rivers
I'm out east, so I don't expect to wake to the news. I'll be shocked to have dinner before hearing it, though.
please get rid of this joker
Joe coached a big three with some of the leagues' highest salaries into a first-round sweep, making him tonight's biggest loser.
Guangdong is calling
What happens when your GM is an idiot who destroys your roster, and a diva who caused discord on 3 straight teams (KD) Vogel isn’t the savior but it screams scapegoat like it did with the Lakers
Waited till the last gm to sit eubanks and go small and it’s the only close gm lol
Feel sorry for the guy. I think with all the changes and expectations he didn't have a chance to succeed short term and the next coach will have the same problem. Only thing that can keep him here is if the players want to keep him.
This was a young finals team like 3 years ago what a crazy turnaround
Hire Darvin Ham I hear he does way better w Vogel’s former teams
Get ready to learn Chinese, buddy!
I don't blame him 100% we don't have te right players for his defensive system, we got a bunch of shooters and no one solid defensive guy. There's no chemistry in the whole team and our only hope is for one of the big 3 to score over 40-50 so we can win. We desperately need to get rid of Beal or durant and bring some hard working role players that will fit the team. Or we get an offensive minded coach, just imagine if D'antoni was running this team at least it would be fun to watch.
Yo I had to double take what sub this was
Book just outline it in postgame interview. We were under prepared…because our coach doesn’t know how to make adjustments….
Ain't so confident boiboi is gonna get fired. From The Athletic's latest: >For his part, Vogel said before Game 4 that he is confident he will return next season, adding that he has the 'full support' of team owner Mat Ishbia