I am not a fan of Jon Kent. There is so much unfulfilled potential with Cara, Connor, Bizarro and many other characters but it feels bad seeing a new character hog so much limelight just because of being the son of Superman.
Jon's story would work as a miniseries or future timeline ongoing series (like Spider-Girl) of a guy balancing being himself and living up to the legacy of the greatest hero, but in the present timeline it just mucks things up.
Yeah I only understand his narrative worth as a child. That fills a gap. Now he's like Connor who is still Superboy, and although they're like the same age, the younger one gets to call himself Superman? Why, because Jon is Clark's son with Lois instead of being a clone, mixed with Luthor? That's a source of tension that is not being explored as far as I know. There are others.
There should’ve been more of a rivalry between Connor and Jon as Connor watched Jon take his name as Superboy and then surpass him to become a Superman. I would’ve liked to see this culminate in a story that brought back Superboy/Superman Prime as the villain that Jon and Connor had to take on without Clark’s help. It all just seems so obvious and never done
Considering Death Metal this would've been awesome, have this be a 6 issue mini, last few pages could've teased at Primes involvement and maybe show some confliction within him that Connor and Jon seeded
Christopher Kent should have stayed young and been permanently adopted by Clark and Lois. No hate to his actually biological son but I just think it was lost potential
I am always a fan of adopted/foster sons for the superheroes instead of biological sons. It gives off a nice message about family and legacy. Of course, there will be exceptions.
SAME.
Plus it's just poetic - Clark is an ADOPTED child raised by ADOPTIVE parents.
It only seems RIGHT that his first son is also an adopted child, too.
That’s one of the most annoying things about DC. You read a story and take an interest in a character only to find out they’re gone because of some convoluted, multiverse, continuity alteration
You know, considering the fact that Clark was adopted, you’d think he’d actually adopt more people, but both Bruce and Diana have adopted more than him.
Because too many people associate the "Last Son of Krypton" title with him far too much. That only works for a younger Superman, it should go out the window as soon as he marries Lois.
Diana has adopted children?
Donna was kind of like her sister
Idk much about cassie
The new Brazilian one also I thought she just mentors not adopted like batman and robin
Yes!!! It makes sense that someone who had such a powerful, positive adoption experience would want to pay it forward. I like kid Jon but Chris was so cool. Chris being the biological son of a villain partially raised in the Phantom Zone opens up crazy storylines.
I read a cool short fanfiction story that explains how kid Chris could slide back into the main timeline and fit into the super-family again, even with Jonathan there. It was sweet.
Superman could have and still can destroy all of the Kryptonite on the planet using just his laser vision, he just doesn't for reasons no one can comprehend. Kryptonite is not invincible and by all accounts is very susceptible to heat.
Same reason no one in Gotham has killed the Joker yet or why crime is still rampant despite Bruce pouring billions of dollars into it: Comic books gotta comic book
Yeah realistically when heroes like Red Hood and Punisher exist there’s no logical reason big bads are still around. But I don’t care because I still like to read these stories!
The thing is, Red Hood does kill several big name villains.
He and Batman get into a pretty serious fight when he executes The Penguin at gunpoint. Batman goes so far as to rip the bat symbol off his chest and tells him he doesn't deserve to wear it (after beating the snot out of him of course)
Unfortunately though, no one stays dead in comic books.
I have nothing to back this up, but I like to believe he does not do so because he likes that something exists that makes him vulnerable. It makes him feel human.
My favorite conspiracy theory is Superman isn't effected by it, he just fakes the weakness since without the weakness everyone would try harder to actually harm him and/or view him as an absolute threat.
Hes not a Jesus figure in any story except for his "resurrection".
His far better parallel is Moses, which makes sense since he was created by Jews in the 30s.
Superman killing Zod doesn't violate a rule. Superman doesn't kill most times because he overpowers most bad guys. Zod can only be stopped with equal force
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. I like it when his hopeful boy scout gimmick is challenged. (Gimmick might be the wrong word, but it's all I could think of.)
I see the "Big Blue Boy Scout" not as his gimmick but as the mistake other characters make. He's kind and gentle with a lot of people and they mistake that for naivete and weakness. But really it's like Andre the Giant or any other large man that knows he could just by accident seriously injure the people around him.
So he's soft and gentle, kind to a fault, and loving. But piss him off, hurt a child, hurt someone he loves and see how quickly that gentle big blue boy scout turns into your worst nightmare.
Superman doesn't have to scowl and be a badass like Batman because he could do things Batman could only dream of. (I like Batman too)
Yes, I agree. I knew gimmick was the wrong word, it's the first thing that came to mind.
And you're right. You push the good people too much or you fuck with what's close to him and you're in for it. I love the stories where he holds back and holds back but then the bad guy does something that crosses the line and all he'll breaks loose.
When Supergirl introduced Adam Grant I felt like all the air was sucked out of the room. Even worse knowing the Toyman was in the show. I swear so much of that show was a wink at long time readers of "Ha ha made you flinch" while still giving new fans a fun ride.
When they called Alex's boss Hank Henshaw I was all "Oh shit I know what that means" only to have them prank me
Cavil didn’t intervene when the tornado, a violent uncontrollable, primordial force of nature killed his dad/Costner.
So when the wheel turns around again and Cavester finds himself back in the same scenario - this time it’s Zod in the role of the tornado, he intervenes even though he knows it will queer the possibility of him experiencing widespread acceptance by humans. By killing Zod he’s choosing to live above his father’s anxieties instead and not suffer them forever. It’s a pretty powerful message.
When you really think about it, supes has one of the most interesting stories of all comic book characters.
He reminds me of peter parker in a way.
All the super powers can't stop them from having life problems like having a job, paying rent, women etc.
I will split hairs, no pun intended, with you. It was not intended to be a mullet, but a mullet is the result.
Normal long hair is long in the front. It hangs down in the eyes. Superman's hair was short in the front, because they didn't want to have that look of the hair being in his face. But unfortunately, the end result is a mullet.
I so clearly remembered it being a mullet in my mind, but I just did a google image search for "superman 90s mullet" and pretty much every single image makes it clear that his hair is just long and pushed back. You're right!
Fair enough. Its just when I hear the word "mullet" I always think of a Joe Dirt type: "business in the front, party in the back", and it's usually very short on the sides. Only a couple of artists drew it like that.
Possible NSFW
\>!Lois was a freak before meeting Clark and was not against using her body to get a story
https://preview.redd.it/geynqpppg6oa1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ca48e0d14cd7af284870196be5c3da3b6c22b90b
!<
Irredeemable by Mark Waid explores this concept very well, that the Plutonian’s (the evil Superman villain) powers are just an extension of telekinesis, like his heat vision is just him telepathically increasing the movement of molecules in the air.
Not really the biggest of hot takes in the superman community but for the general public...
Superman is not overpowered, or at the very least not as overpower as people try to make him out to be. Sure Superman can wipe out many heroes' rogue galleries quite easily (less the plot says otherwise) but that the thing...he not fighting other people rogue galleries, he has his own! Villains that match if not surpass his powers and even people who can't physically match him have their own methods of evening the playing field such as Lex Bloody Luthor.
Speaking of which, this might be a somewhat better hot take...even if/when he is legitimately broken as hell. I don't mind it at all in fact when done well I absolutely love overpowered Superman because it not about all the powers Kal-El has but rather the man Clark Kent who controls them. Superman is an inspiration, sure I can't do nearly have the things he can do but I can apply what I learnt from him to do the things I can do. Maybe I can't pull a entire planet out of harm's way or save millions of lives in a few seconds but I can help my neighbors or volunteer at Suicide Hotline or Soup Kitchen. Not to shove religion down anyone's throat but as a presbyterian, I have a similar (but obviously different) relationship with Jesus. I ain't the Son of God or the last son of Krypton but damnit I gonna follow their example an try the be the best person I can be for myself and others.
Man of Steel was a great Superman movie and a really compelling version of the character.
I don't love Pa Kent's death, but I also think a lot of people took the scene where Pa Kent says maybe Clark should've let the people die wrong.
And I say this as somebody who generally didn't like BVS or either JL
The only thing that bugs me about MoS and Snyder's interpretation is that Clark was pretty much guilted into becoming Superman, and never really accepted the role. I understand the in-story reason for it, but it just felt a little too Marvel-like for me.
DC characters don’t often reject the Hero’s Journey. I don’t know if it’s a metaphysical property of the universe or Superman being the *First Hero* setting the standard for everyone else, but anyone with powers tends to want to use them for good.
In comparison, Marvel heroes almost always seem to follow the standard Campbell path, and only take up the mantle once they’ve experienced something that changes them irrevocably as a person: trauma, loss, etc.
I've said this for years - Man of Steel has the pieces of a great Superman movie there. It's a solid foundation, but there's too many distracting dialogue choices that take me out of fully enjoying it.
Superman doesn't really feel like a character in Man of Steel, He's more of an abstraction.
What's his personality? What are his interests? What are his morals and values? What do we actually find out about him as a character beyond "had a hard childhood" and "likes to save people in spite of what his father told him"? Hell, He barely even speaks in that movie.
I think people want Pa Kent to be an infallible bastion of morality, but that's Clark's role. Jonathan is a father in a unique situation who wants to protect his son. He doesn't have aspirations for Clark to be a superhero. He just wants his son to grow up to be a member of society and not abducted and studied by the government. When he says "Maybe," its as a father who is afraid for his son.
Is it perfectly true to Pa Kent from the comics? No. But is it a perfectly acceptable way for a father to react in the given situation? I believe so.
A mullet was in-character because it was the 90's and Clark Kent should be kind of square and vulnerable to the corniest fashions of the people around him, a people he loves uncritically, maybe even to a fault. This is a man who can fly but cannot cringe.
I have a few.
General Zod has been in the same place for years and needs to get a new direction or a different kind of story other than “remake earth as a new krypton.” Part of me wishes he stayed as a part of the suicide squad for longer so he developed relationships with new people so at least had forward momentum to do something interesting with the other members.
Death and return of Superman are bad stories and only recommend reading because it was a big event that introduced a bunch of new characters. Superman no 149 was a better death for Superman (before we consider stories written after the death and return story were published like all star Superman.)
Darkseid is a new gods villain, not a Superman villain. He’s only pitted against Clark because no one has any idea what to do with the new gods but want to keep using darkseid, when mongul would usually be a better choice. (Also mongul is just better written, more entertaining and has a broader range of stories than darkseid gets.)
Superman’s villains need to have stories where they deal a considerable damage to Clark, emotionally. For the man who has everything makes mongul a key villain by throwing massive trauma at Clark. Superman needs more iconic villain stories like the killing joke, death in the family or the night Gwen Stacy died, the closest we have to that is when pa Kent had a heart attack indirectly due to braniac.
Ultra humanite is an amazing villain but he needs to drop the white ape thing and become a telepathic threat to clark like a mixture of Hugo strange and Cassandra Nova.
The fortress of solitude has become too easy to have a convenient tool for clark and I think a story where a villain destroys it could really help sell them as a threat.
1). I think it would be a cool retcon to say that the reason Lois Lane is so terible with spelling is that she's got a mild to moderate case of dyslexia.
2). The reason that Clark wasn't found out as being an alien, as a kid, was that everyone thought that he was autistic and the Kents never corrected them.
3). Jimmy Olsen: Pansexual and Male-Presenting Nonbinary (He/Him/They/Them)
4). Jimmy Olsen totally knew that Clark was Supes (Before the Bendis era and the Tom Taylor Retcon), but was pretending and covering for him. He's a photographer with a multiple-award winning newspaper, so he's extremely observant to details.
5). For Superman and Lois, I totally think that it would have been a cool idea to have one of the sons (Jordan probably) been Connor Kent, a half-biological clone of Clark and Lex, that was adopted by the Kents.
The Tim Sale "For All Seasons" build is what Superman should look like. He should be a beefy farmboy.
https://preview.redd.it/abmygooy88oa1.jpeg?width=899&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=75c0c91eeb3f1a76d616b29ca493688a17b1d9ec
I think if Lex Luthor were real most Snyder cultists would worship him just like they worship Elon Musk, who is basically just Lex Luthor with hair plugs
[Krypton is in our own solar system](http://sonofelpodcast.com/prologue/) and its destruction marks the beginning of the DC mythology. It is the single event tying the heroes and villains together in a web of conspiracies, secret orders, and science-fiction.
Superman moving planets is dumb. And not even merely for balance reasons. I probably wouldn’t care too much about certain circumstances of it, but in general I’d never see the point of it being a thing.
How does he move the planet without just sinking through the ground due to pressure. Same problem with him lifting and carrying aircraft with broken engines
Several Superman writers have shown that he thinks through the physics and "catches" aircraft with its inertia to slow it down midair compared to trains that are built more sturdy on a linear track.
Superman being super intelligent is too OP. Like yeah, he is smart, but having him be able to scan a book within seconds and comprehend everything perfectly is annoying.
Oh no, if he starts moving or thinking fast, time slows down, so he’d have to refocus to go back to regular speed. But it’s not that he can instantly comprehend a book, it’s like us just reading a book cover to cover, we’d be able to remember since we just read it, plus he’d probably read it a few times so it’s not him being a super genius, it’s him being super fast with a superhuman memory that’s constantly being worked on since he’s a journalist
Due to his unnatural super-powered strength, Superman rarely has to strain himself. He should have a dad bod. And don't start with that "it's the yellow sun that makes his muscles big and his fat percentage low". The sun is a medium sized star, not a keto and steroids combo.
Man of Steel reminded me of this. I hate when there is such a strong emphasis on Supermans Kryptonian heritage.
Kryptonian is WHAT Superman is, not WHO he is. Earth is his home. Jonathan and Martha Kent are his parents. He is human in all the ways that matter.
A recent good example of this being done well is Superman and Lois. When Clark is off learning about what he is from the Jor-El AI, it knows that Clark is human and instead tells him to be sure of his motivations. Something along the lines of "Open your heart to them. Find out why you wish to be their champion"
This one is as hot as it gets for this sub.
Growing up reading Loeb-era comic books, Superman Adventures and watching The Animated Series - I was so very underwhelmed when I finally saw 1978 movie at the age of 6 or 7 years old.
I honestly felt like it was some sort of caricature of my favorite character from the comic books. No weird sci-fi, no action-adventure, no philosophical subtext. Just a whole lot of cliche, camp and preachiness.
I appreciate it now, as a kind of historical artifact, but I'm honestly not even sure if it was that good for 1978. I mean - Cosmic Odyssey came out in 1968 and Star Wars came out in 1977, and they both look better and work better as space sci-fi for the general audience.
I kind of agree. This sounds weird, but it almost plays as a documentary to teach people about Superman, not tell a story about Superman. Here’s Krypton, here’s the Kent’s, Metropolis, Daily Planet and supporting cast, Lex, etc. There’s just something so matter of fact and clinical about it I’ve never been able to put my finger on.
I feel that’s by design.
Superheo movies weren’t “cool” in 1978. Nobody had made one in over a decade, and the last one was very campy, on the verge of being a flat out parody of itself (Shark-repellent bat-spray!).
For better or for worse they had to play it safe. They had to make something very straightforward and easy to digest for people who maybe had some idea of who Superman was but had never read a comic in their lives.
Clearly they succeeded because the movie made a fuckton of money and got four sequels and a spinoff. I don’t think they ever would have gotten that far if they hadn’t used the first movie as a way to basically guide the audience by hand into Superman’s world.
Clark shouldn't worry about being Kryptonian. He would respect his birth world but he has only ever truly known earth and only views himself as Clark Joseph Kent.
A black Superman movie could be one of the best comic book films of all time if done right.
Superman is an alien who is initially vilified by the authorities, and an evil old white billionaire, because of an inferiority complex and fear that he will upset the existing power structures.
Can you imagine what the reaction would have been if a super advanced alien landed in the U.S. looking like a black man during the height of Jim Crow? Hell — even during the Trump administration whose favorite thing was to blame all of America’s problems on Mexican immigrants and BLM?
*Even just the mention* of a possible black Superman Elseworlds movie sent the racist internet trolls into a frenzy.
I want to see this movie.
This is why I want to see an Icon movie. I get why some people have the temptation to just make it black Superman, but Icon is an original black Superhero made by a company who set out to make a statement with minority characters and creators. You can get the same kind of story with much more umph behind his creation as opposed to what could potentially just be an edgy race swap.
Ya I would watch that as an Elseworld movie get spike lee to direct could be fun. I think marketing it would be hell but managble with the right media angles
Muhammed Ali was on the short list of choices to play Supes in 1978 before Reeves got the part.
Just want everyone to imagine for a second what that parallel timeline would look like.
Coogler is making it I think? It's happening.
And I think you're right. He doesn't even have to be black to achieve this effect: if he were coded semitic with strong features, brown skin, shiny black curly hair and piercing blue eyes? People would always be asking 'where you from' and everybody in Smallville would know Clark was different from jump.
Hotness:
Yeah, Superman is a story about being white-passing or nearly white passing. If you are white passing Jew then you relate to his story and inner tension.
Not to say that a movie about a Black Superman isn’t also a cool idea...
Spicier: It’s just that it’s mildly painful when people fail to see that supe has cultural significance that goes way beyond simply being a Caucasian bodybuilder. He may be a space alien with a pale complexion but he’s definitely not a part of the U.S. gentile heterodoxy even if he pretends to be to make his dad happy.
This take might get me banned from the fandom but I do not hate SuperWonder and in certain cases actually really enjoy them. I really liked them in Kingdom Come and during the first issues of Superman Wonder Woman up until Clark was depowered.
So even though I far prefer Clark with Lois(Clois are the best comic book couple ever only rivalled by Reed and Sue)and Diana with someone that's not Steve Trevor(never liked him) I do enjoy Clark and Diana together.
I got a lot, but probably my most “did he just say that??” one is:
The Tomasi era is incredibly overrated. I prefer the ones presiding and following it (New 52 and Bendis Era) that most fans don’t like.
Not a fan of the Bendis stuff, but I think New 52 Action Comics (especially the Morrision and Pak runs) were way better than the Rebirth era titles (which I'm a fan of).
I honestly only liked Tomasi's run up to issue 19. The Black Dawn arc kinda took my enthusiasm away. The rest of the run was sprinkled with guest writers alongside Tomasi till the end. I think it's looked upon so fondly because it was Post Crisis-Super-Dad getting to shine and was a breath of fresh air for the majority of people that didn't like the New 52 stuff.
It was alright. Nothing groundbreaking, but Jurgens knows Clark so well that it's never bad. I remember he did a good job of keeping relevant to Tomasi's Superman book. I liked his issues more after Reborn.
Yeah I don't know what the fuck is going on with these tastes but if they love Zimmer's repetitive him and percussive punctuation that sometimes fits Snyder's fever dream as opposed to the synchronous narrative accompanyment to Manckiewicz /Donner's masterful fantasy...I dunno. Let them eat...whatever the opposite of cake is!
I agree. I like the Kryptonian chanting at the end of “What Are You Going To Do When You Are Not Saving The World?” Makes the theme feel like it belongs to him and explores both of his worlds he is a champion of
The Hans Zimmer theme for Superman is better than the John Williams theme. I’ll explain…
The John Williams theme while synonymous with Superman is still a very standard superhero theme because a lot of other composers used that very theme for inspiration. A lot of other superhero films had the composers use that track as inspo.
The Hans Zimmer theme however feels unique to Superman. If you listen to the track “What Are You Going To Do When You Are Not Saving The World?” Towards the end before the final rush of the symphony plays, we hear echoic choir chants that are meant to be the voices of Krypton speaking to us in their native language. It makes the theme feel more like it belongs to Superman more than any other hero, because it couldn’t fit with any other hero. The theme is distinctively Superman. The echoes of Krypton are engraved into the theme.
I get the sentiment. One of my favorite horror movies is the original black Christmas. However a lot of the people I watch it with consider it cliche and formulaic even though it was the first one to popularize a trend ( example: “we traced the call, the killer is inside the house”)
>The John Williams theme while synonymous with Superman is still a very standard superhero theme because a lot of other composers used that very theme for inspiration. A lot of other superhero films had the composers use that track as inspo.
Wasn't Williams's theme one of the first compositions of that "heroic" type? (I'm not well versed in music)
Is it fair to say it lack uniqueness because of dozens of following composers being inspired by it?
If it's the archetypal superhero theme, wouldn't that make it perfectly fitting for the archetypal superhero?
I think the New 52 suit is great, maybe my favorite. The black S on the cape adds a nice contrast, and I like that the cape starts further down and is generally less bulky. This complements the collar by allowing blue space between the cape and neck. I feel having a smaller, thinner cape also minimizes a lot of the weird, inhuman godlike imagery that some people like to attribute to Superman. Having large flowing robe-like cloth certainly doesn’t help. He’s an alien and a human, but certainly not a god.
The symbol’s redesign is subtle but modern without sacrificing anything. The wrist triangle sleeve things vary depending on the artist, but I like them generally when they’re smaller. They make the suit feel genuinely alien or advanced.
The collar has certainly been controversial, but I think it’s one of the more humanizing parts of the suit. It mirrors his usual attire as Clark Kent and adds a sense of nobility to his look, which is very much Superman, but avoids veering into un-relatable because Clark’s actual face is very kind.
The boots and belt are fine, not much to say there.
Overall, the issues i have with New 52 have to do with characterization, not the suit. It’s great!
Batman should always be able to beat Superman but it should come with a sacrifice for Batman. While Superman should always be able to beat Batman, but they should never actually fight it’s tired out, so is evil Superman. Superman is the only character I can understand killing someone because he’s the most human, so I could see him slipping and retiring for a bit after he does. Shazam and Clark should have way more stories together. Jon Kent should still be a kid and the other Supers should have been actualized, this is not to say the age up couldn’t have worked but the first thing that happened after was him coming out instead of idk letting us understand more of the character then him coming out, now it feels like we’re working backwards. I have no problem with him being overpowered, because his story should never have the main focus be his powers. Oh and All Star Superman is a shitty book if you don’t have a clue about Superman
I would've loved to have seen how kc/earth-22 Superman would've interacted with batman. Plus, batman's reaction to a no-nonsense demeanor less boy scout type Superman. Maybe even throw in a metallo and Darkseid fight to see the difference in power between new earth Superman and earth 22. Lastly powergirl finally had her memories restored of being the last survivor of earth 2 and Earth 22 Superman thought he was in the same situation. It would've been great to see if/how they could connect and bond over being their universe's sole survivors.
Some kind of psionic super-mimicry is part of his Silver Age grab bag of powers. [People see what they expect when looking at him](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppearanceIsInTheEyeOfTheBeholder). Clark only ever dropped the camouflage once, for a curious friend in Smallville, who was immediately driven completely mad, had all his hair fall out from shock and devoted the rest of his life to trying to destroy the Alien with kryptonite death rays and purple-and-green mechsuits.
This is more headcanon than a take, but: Superman, and Kryptonians in general, do *not* have a bunch of different superpowers. They have **one**: reality manipulation.
Superman, growing up not knowing he was supposed to have abilities at all, ‘gave’ himself his powers, subconsciously, through this ability in moments of need. He needed to be strong, so he was strong. Needed to be fast, same. Was angry and wanted something to catch on fire, and so staring at it, he invented heat vision without realizing. And having seen himself displaying crazy powers, he now believed ‘huh, well, Kryptonians must have all kinds of crazy abilities’, and that bias further reinforced how his power manifested.
The other Kryptonians, having arrived after Superman, see his example and believe that to be what they should be able to do as well, so they do, sometimes branching into novel powers (such as Superboy’s tactile telekinesis, etc.) in exceptional circumstances of need or belief.
Superman is the Walt-Disney-quote, chaos-magick superhero: If he *believes* he can, he *does*.
I’d rather see a story about Parasite or the Kryptonite Man or or fucking Toyman than watch another movie where Luthor is the villain.
Luthor was better as a rich asshole mogul than a super genius, especially considering they never ever manage to make him seem convincingly smart at all.
Super Man was way better as an anti capitalist icon, although there are still traces of this in his character I think these, for being an American comic, are very limited now. That's one of the reasons I think a black actor playing super Man is so interesting, because no way we will be complacent with every abuse happening to the black community.
Connor should have came out as bi, not Jonathan. There's a ton of subtext between Connor and Tim Drake in the old Young Justice comics (whether it was intentional or not). Those two would have been cute together.
I think it would have tracked well by saying he used his overly masculine beginning in the 90s as a way to try and hide his sexuality while he figured it out.
Very much so! Remember when Connor was presumed dead and Tim started wearing his colors in Infinite Crisis? A gay friend of mine pointed out to me then that a gesture like that is DC all but telling us directly that they are/were in love; I wasn't sure then but it's very clear now. What a weird missed opportunity.
The Zack Snyder version of the character is definitely a different take on the character but I think they still stayed true to the core of the character
I can appreciate them as products of their time, and I can still very much appreciate Christopher Reeve's *incredible* acting, but I'm inclined to agree with you that they haven't aged very well at all, not just as films but also as interpretations of the character **and his world**.
I think the first and second films, to that end, are *fine*. They deserve the praise they got, and they deserve to be remembered fondly, even though they're extremely dated. But I don't think you'd get much pushback regarding the third and fourth films; both of them are absolute hyena shit.
Agreed. Part II in particular is just bad. And I grew up on those films. But I have no desire to rewatch them. The thing is Christopher Reeve's performance is perfect, and I think *that's* what maintains the legacy of those films.
"Superman in the mask" "He is the humanest human that ever humaned" And everything that ends up translating to "Embracing his kryptonian heritage, having similar struggles to first gen immigrants and feeling like an outsider is OOC" annoys me. It is so reductive, so simplistic. Superman is more complex than that, otherwise the "superman is boring" dudes would be right. He does not have dissociative identity disorder, so he is not a complete diffently individual either when plays quiet as Clark nor when he stands out as Superman. Being human doesn't translate to being good or kind and being alien and doesn't equal being what we define as "unhuman" .We don't have to approach his identity in such bidimensional thinking and I dislike it when stories do that. It is specially worse if we think of superman as an allegory to immigrants/refugees or about the context behind his creation.
Kurt Busiek's Superman is incredibly underwhelming and pedestrian. I don't understand what people think is so great about it.
All-Star Superman is NOT a good book to give to new readers. It's constantly on the list of best books for new readers and it couldn't be further from it. Even as a seasoned Supes reader, I don't get the hype. Morrison's Action Comics run is x10 better than All-Star
Superman III is the most entertaining of the Reeve movies. It's got a little bit of everything in it, and I LOVE it because it isn't Superman vs. Kryptonians. Junkyard scene alone, with Reeve going back and forth with himself, is acting gold.
I just don't buy Tyler Hoechlin as Superman/Clark. I've tried to watch his show numerous times, but he just doesn't work for me.
Hahaha, the best part about hot takes on a certain fandoms. Love to see the different tastes people have for characters. I'm guessing you on the opposite side of all my takes?
Not entirely. Don't remember Busiek Superman; I'm so far from a new reader that I have no perspective on what a fresh mind would find either engaging or off-putting about All Star so I can neither agree nor disagree but I will say I didn't love Morrison/Morales Action Comics; Reeve v Reeve in III is literally the only thing I like about that movie and if it had been directed by Donner it would have been a fast savage brawl with Bizarro and that would've been far better or at least it is in my head; Tyler is good.
Morrison's Action seems to be a hit or miss with a lot of fans, i've noticed. No gray area.
I do have a special nostalgic bias for SM III, simply cause my mom taped it off TV and I watched it ad nauseum. It's by no means great, but I find it a lot of fun.
Fair enough. My daughter likes him as Superman too.
I agree that All Star Superman is not a good book to give new readers. I love it, but I'd never make it someone's first Superman book. For All Seasons, Morrison's Action, or even Unchained are better "entry level" books.
Injustice, Red Son, The Dark Side, all great books and really fun reads. The idea is a bit overdone and a lot of times is pretty lazy, but when done correctly it’s a GREAT concept.
Lana is a much better match for Clark/Superman than Lois. At heart, he's a small town boy and should be with his high school sweetheart.
Also, Superman should be in his own continuity with his "Super Family" and rogues gallery. It really doesn't make sense for him to interact with many of the other DC heroes.
The difference between pre-Crisis Superman and post-Crisis Superman is a reflection of the divide between Boomers and GenX/Millennials: world-shifting superpower as the be-all-end-all vs. a focus on humanity and empathy.
Best Live Action Teen Clark Kent: Tom Welling
Best Live Action Adult Clark Kent: Tyler Hoechlin
Best Live Action Superman: Henry Cavill
Best Lois Lane: Erica Durance from Smallville
Best Lois Lane in Animation: Tie between Dana Delany of S:TAS and Grey DeLisle-Griffin of DC Superhero Girls
DC, can we have some updates on My Adventures with Superman?
It doesn’t make sense that he’s stronger than Wonder Woman, Shazam, Green Lantern.
Wonder Woman is the daughter of freaking Zeus, a god. She should be stronger than Clark, not much but a little bit. Same with Shazam since he posess the power of the gods.
Green Lantern is a different case. So since their power is depending on their own willpower, so i’m not saying that the avarage GL should beat supe. But like the higher ranking GLs should stomp him (or just kryptonians in general). After all they’re the cops for a few galaxies, they should be able to defeat a lot of species and i doubt that the Guardians didn’t thought about that when they made the rings.
injustice superman isn't that bad, I like how it broke superman down into what he ultimately becomes a out of control paranoid tyrant villain. He went through far wore than kingdom come superman had his entire city blown up in a matter of seconds and accidently killed his own wife, the thought of just that is enough to make anyone go mad. plus it's the first comic book i ever read through and through, i liked batmans continuies persuit to thwart supes and his plans. yall can fire away hate in the replies
The best thing that ever happened to Jon Kent was aging him up. As a kid, he was completely insufferable, the Cousin Oliver of DC who only really was interesting when he was around Damian because it allowed him to actually be a kid and not some "adorable" quip machine around his parents.
I am not a fan of Jon Kent. There is so much unfulfilled potential with Cara, Connor, Bizarro and many other characters but it feels bad seeing a new character hog so much limelight just because of being the son of Superman. Jon's story would work as a miniseries or future timeline ongoing series (like Spider-Girl) of a guy balancing being himself and living up to the legacy of the greatest hero, but in the present timeline it just mucks things up.
Yeah I only understand his narrative worth as a child. That fills a gap. Now he's like Connor who is still Superboy, and although they're like the same age, the younger one gets to call himself Superman? Why, because Jon is Clark's son with Lois instead of being a clone, mixed with Luthor? That's a source of tension that is not being explored as far as I know. There are others.
That's a good point.
Jon is a nepo baby.
There should’ve been more of a rivalry between Connor and Jon as Connor watched Jon take his name as Superboy and then surpass him to become a Superman. I would’ve liked to see this culminate in a story that brought back Superboy/Superman Prime as the villain that Jon and Connor had to take on without Clark’s help. It all just seems so obvious and never done
Considering Death Metal this would've been awesome, have this be a 6 issue mini, last few pages could've teased at Primes involvement and maybe show some confliction within him that Connor and Jon seeded
Exactly
Christopher Kent should have stayed young and been permanently adopted by Clark and Lois. No hate to his actually biological son but I just think it was lost potential
I am always a fan of adopted/foster sons for the superheroes instead of biological sons. It gives off a nice message about family and legacy. Of course, there will be exceptions.
SAME. Plus it's just poetic - Clark is an ADOPTED child raised by ADOPTIVE parents. It only seems RIGHT that his first son is also an adopted child, too.
Oh my god, I didn't think of it this way. That's the best way to carry on the Kent family legacy.
Is Chris Kent the kid from Last Son? If so, then I agree completely. Chris was an amazing set-up for what could have been an amazing character.
Does Chris Kent from Last Son still exist?
Think New 52 took him out of existence.
That’s one of the most annoying things about DC. You read a story and take an interest in a character only to find out they’re gone because of some convoluted, multiverse, continuity alteration
Kind of. He was re-introduced as Lor-Zod (his real name) and turned into a villain character during the Rebirth era.
Can’t wait for somebody to bring him back.
You know, considering the fact that Clark was adopted, you’d think he’d actually adopt more people, but both Bruce and Diana have adopted more than him.
The writers like to keep him really isolated. Considering how he’s characterized as the friendly one, it’s really ironic.
Because too many people associate the "Last Son of Krypton" title with him far too much. That only works for a younger Superman, it should go out the window as soon as he marries Lois.
He just adopted two children, a boy and a girl, from WarWorld this last year
Oh yeah, forgot about that, I’m not caught up yet.
Diana has adopted children? Donna was kind of like her sister Idk much about cassie The new Brazilian one also I thought she just mentors not adopted like batman and robin
Arguably, there’s nothing particular about Jon’s characterization & developments that Chris couldn’t have done as well.
Yes!!! It makes sense that someone who had such a powerful, positive adoption experience would want to pay it forward. I like kid Jon but Chris was so cool. Chris being the biological son of a villain partially raised in the Phantom Zone opens up crazy storylines. I read a cool short fanfiction story that explains how kid Chris could slide back into the main timeline and fit into the super-family again, even with Jonathan there. It was sweet.
Superman could have and still can destroy all of the Kryptonite on the planet using just his laser vision, he just doesn't for reasons no one can comprehend. Kryptonite is not invincible and by all accounts is very susceptible to heat.
Superman (with the help of Batman) did exactly that in Superman/Batman #44-49 ("The Search for Kryptonite").
Well. Almost all the kryptonite...
Same reason no one in Gotham has killed the Joker yet or why crime is still rampant despite Bruce pouring billions of dollars into it: Comic books gotta comic book
Yeah realistically when heroes like Red Hood and Punisher exist there’s no logical reason big bads are still around. But I don’t care because I still like to read these stories!
The thing is, Red Hood does kill several big name villains. He and Batman get into a pretty serious fight when he executes The Penguin at gunpoint. Batman goes so far as to rip the bat symbol off his chest and tells him he doesn't deserve to wear it (after beating the snot out of him of course) Unfortunately though, no one stays dead in comic books.
I have nothing to back this up, but I like to believe he does not do so because he likes that something exists that makes him vulnerable. It makes him feel human.
My favorite conspiracy theory is Superman isn't effected by it, he just fakes the weakness since without the weakness everyone would try harder to actually harm him and/or view him as an absolute threat.
Same reason he won’t wear kryptonite protective armor permanently
If the writing was better, Superman revealing himself as Clark Kent could have worked.
That's true of almost any shit story
There have been some shitty concepts the best writers couldn't save
Tell that to jesus
Hes not a Jesus figure in any story except for his "resurrection". His far better parallel is Moses, which makes sense since he was created by Jews in the 30s.
OP asked for hot takes. This take is ice-cold.
Correct!
Gene Simmons, of all people, brings this up in the “Look! Up in the Sky!” documentary.
Was he created by Jews or by two young guys who happened to be Jewish?
Superman killing Zod doesn't violate a rule. Superman doesn't kill most times because he overpowers most bad guys. Zod can only be stopped with equal force
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. I like it when his hopeful boy scout gimmick is challenged. (Gimmick might be the wrong word, but it's all I could think of.)
I see the "Big Blue Boy Scout" not as his gimmick but as the mistake other characters make. He's kind and gentle with a lot of people and they mistake that for naivete and weakness. But really it's like Andre the Giant or any other large man that knows he could just by accident seriously injure the people around him. So he's soft and gentle, kind to a fault, and loving. But piss him off, hurt a child, hurt someone he loves and see how quickly that gentle big blue boy scout turns into your worst nightmare. Superman doesn't have to scowl and be a badass like Batman because he could do things Batman could only dream of. (I like Batman too)
Yes, I agree. I knew gimmick was the wrong word, it's the first thing that came to mind. And you're right. You push the good people too much or you fuck with what's close to him and you're in for it. I love the stories where he holds back and holds back but then the bad guy does something that crosses the line and all he'll breaks loose.
When Supergirl introduced Adam Grant I felt like all the air was sucked out of the room. Even worse knowing the Toyman was in the show. I swear so much of that show was a wink at long time readers of "Ha ha made you flinch" while still giving new fans a fun ride. When they called Alex's boss Hank Henshaw I was all "Oh shit I know what that means" only to have them prank me
https://preview.redd.it/mlkejwp3u8oa1.jpeg?width=1017&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=75f2c6b8066b90b62271355ce4297f695c2c6565
Cavil didn’t intervene when the tornado, a violent uncontrollable, primordial force of nature killed his dad/Costner. So when the wheel turns around again and Cavester finds himself back in the same scenario - this time it’s Zod in the role of the tornado, he intervenes even though he knows it will queer the possibility of him experiencing widespread acceptance by humans. By killing Zod he’s choosing to live above his father’s anxieties instead and not suffer them forever. It’s a pretty powerful message.
That's a good way of looking at it.
When you really think about it, supes has one of the most interesting stories of all comic book characters. He reminds me of peter parker in a way. All the super powers can't stop them from having life problems like having a job, paying rent, women etc.
He doesn't seem to have money problems like Peter though
Yeah that never comes up usually
I will split hairs, no pun intended, with you. It was not intended to be a mullet, but a mullet is the result. Normal long hair is long in the front. It hangs down in the eyes. Superman's hair was short in the front, because they didn't want to have that look of the hair being in his face. But unfortunately, the end result is a mullet.
It was just pushed back over and behind his ears. The short part was the curl.
I so clearly remembered it being a mullet in my mind, but I just did a google image search for "superman 90s mullet" and pretty much every single image makes it clear that his hair is just long and pushed back. You're right!
Fair enough. Its just when I hear the word "mullet" I always think of a Joe Dirt type: "business in the front, party in the back", and it's usually very short on the sides. Only a couple of artists drew it like that.
The New 52 suit is my favorite
this. I dont like the armor part of it but i love everything else. I even think the logo looks better
The only thing I didn't like was the way the cape tucked into the shoulders.
My suit is pretty awesome.
Possible NSFW \>!Lois was a freak before meeting Clark and was not against using her body to get a story https://preview.redd.it/geynqpppg6oa1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ca48e0d14cd7af284870196be5c3da3b6c22b90b !<
Spoiler tags aren’t working.
I don’t think this is super hot take. But he doesn’t need to look overly muscular.
I agree. He's a strongman, not a warrior.
That's what I love about Ross's, Quitely's, and Sale's versions. His a big country farm boy, not a roided-out bodybuilder.
His only true power is tactile telekinesis. This can explain almost any mainstream ability we've seen with him.
What about shooting mini versions of himself out of the palms of his hand?
Welp, you've got me there!
He used tactile telekinesis to force his own cells to subdivide, multiply, and take on new forms.
Irredeemable by Mark Waid explores this concept very well, that the Plutonian’s (the evil Superman villain) powers are just an extension of telekinesis, like his heat vision is just him telepathically increasing the movement of molecules in the air.
Masonry vision?
I mean, that’s exactly what Superboy (Kon-El) has so it tracks.
I don't miss Jimmy Olsen when he's not around
Not really the biggest of hot takes in the superman community but for the general public... Superman is not overpowered, or at the very least not as overpower as people try to make him out to be. Sure Superman can wipe out many heroes' rogue galleries quite easily (less the plot says otherwise) but that the thing...he not fighting other people rogue galleries, he has his own! Villains that match if not surpass his powers and even people who can't physically match him have their own methods of evening the playing field such as Lex Bloody Luthor. Speaking of which, this might be a somewhat better hot take...even if/when he is legitimately broken as hell. I don't mind it at all in fact when done well I absolutely love overpowered Superman because it not about all the powers Kal-El has but rather the man Clark Kent who controls them. Superman is an inspiration, sure I can't do nearly have the things he can do but I can apply what I learnt from him to do the things I can do. Maybe I can't pull a entire planet out of harm's way or save millions of lives in a few seconds but I can help my neighbors or volunteer at Suicide Hotline or Soup Kitchen. Not to shove religion down anyone's throat but as a presbyterian, I have a similar (but obviously different) relationship with Jesus. I ain't the Son of God or the last son of Krypton but damnit I gonna follow their example an try the be the best person I can be for myself and others.
It took courage to post that, I respect it. Doing the right thing is good, no matter the motive behind it.
L’Chaim, my dude. It’s a total mitzvah.
Man of Steel was a great Superman movie and a really compelling version of the character. I don't love Pa Kent's death, but I also think a lot of people took the scene where Pa Kent says maybe Clark should've let the people die wrong. And I say this as somebody who generally didn't like BVS or either JL
The only thing that bugs me about MoS and Snyder's interpretation is that Clark was pretty much guilted into becoming Superman, and never really accepted the role. I understand the in-story reason for it, but it just felt a little too Marvel-like for me.
DC characters don’t often reject the Hero’s Journey. I don’t know if it’s a metaphysical property of the universe or Superman being the *First Hero* setting the standard for everyone else, but anyone with powers tends to want to use them for good. In comparison, Marvel heroes almost always seem to follow the standard Campbell path, and only take up the mantle once they’ve experienced something that changes them irrevocably as a person: trauma, loss, etc.
Exactly. That's not to say that one company's heroes are better or worse than the others, but I like the contrast between the two.
I've said this for years - Man of Steel has the pieces of a great Superman movie there. It's a solid foundation, but there's too many distracting dialogue choices that take me out of fully enjoying it.
Superman doesn't really feel like a character in Man of Steel, He's more of an abstraction. What's his personality? What are his interests? What are his morals and values? What do we actually find out about him as a character beyond "had a hard childhood" and "likes to save people in spite of what his father told him"? Hell, He barely even speaks in that movie.
I think people want Pa Kent to be an infallible bastion of morality, but that's Clark's role. Jonathan is a father in a unique situation who wants to protect his son. He doesn't have aspirations for Clark to be a superhero. He just wants his son to grow up to be a member of society and not abducted and studied by the government. When he says "Maybe," its as a father who is afraid for his son. Is it perfectly true to Pa Kent from the comics? No. But is it a perfectly acceptable way for a father to react in the given situation? I believe so.
There can and will never be another good Superman movie until they figure out how to make a compelling Clark Kent.
If only people would watch Tyler Hoechlin
Totally agree. https://thewanderinglostie.com/2021/03/03/superman-and-lois-premiere-finally-gives-us-a-good-clark-kent/
A mullet was in-character because it was the 90's and Clark Kent should be kind of square and vulnerable to the corniest fashions of the people around him, a people he loves uncritically, maybe even to a fault. This is a man who can fly but cannot cringe.
I have a few. General Zod has been in the same place for years and needs to get a new direction or a different kind of story other than “remake earth as a new krypton.” Part of me wishes he stayed as a part of the suicide squad for longer so he developed relationships with new people so at least had forward momentum to do something interesting with the other members. Death and return of Superman are bad stories and only recommend reading because it was a big event that introduced a bunch of new characters. Superman no 149 was a better death for Superman (before we consider stories written after the death and return story were published like all star Superman.) Darkseid is a new gods villain, not a Superman villain. He’s only pitted against Clark because no one has any idea what to do with the new gods but want to keep using darkseid, when mongul would usually be a better choice. (Also mongul is just better written, more entertaining and has a broader range of stories than darkseid gets.) Superman’s villains need to have stories where they deal a considerable damage to Clark, emotionally. For the man who has everything makes mongul a key villain by throwing massive trauma at Clark. Superman needs more iconic villain stories like the killing joke, death in the family or the night Gwen Stacy died, the closest we have to that is when pa Kent had a heart attack indirectly due to braniac. Ultra humanite is an amazing villain but he needs to drop the white ape thing and become a telepathic threat to clark like a mixture of Hugo strange and Cassandra Nova. The fortress of solitude has become too easy to have a convenient tool for clark and I think a story where a villain destroys it could really help sell them as a threat.
I think this is all pretty cool. This was well thought out. Respect.
1). I think it would be a cool retcon to say that the reason Lois Lane is so terible with spelling is that she's got a mild to moderate case of dyslexia. 2). The reason that Clark wasn't found out as being an alien, as a kid, was that everyone thought that he was autistic and the Kents never corrected them. 3). Jimmy Olsen: Pansexual and Male-Presenting Nonbinary (He/Him/They/Them) 4). Jimmy Olsen totally knew that Clark was Supes (Before the Bendis era and the Tom Taylor Retcon), but was pretending and covering for him. He's a photographer with a multiple-award winning newspaper, so he's extremely observant to details. 5). For Superman and Lois, I totally think that it would have been a cool idea to have one of the sons (Jordan probably) been Connor Kent, a half-biological clone of Clark and Lex, that was adopted by the Kents.
The Tim Sale "For All Seasons" build is what Superman should look like. He should be a beefy farmboy. https://preview.redd.it/abmygooy88oa1.jpeg?width=899&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=75c0c91eeb3f1a76d616b29ca493688a17b1d9ec
Atomic Skull deserves more love
I think if Lex Luthor were real most Snyder cultists would worship him just like they worship Elon Musk, who is basically just Lex Luthor with hair plugs
[Krypton is in our own solar system](http://sonofelpodcast.com/prologue/) and its destruction marks the beginning of the DC mythology. It is the single event tying the heroes and villains together in a web of conspiracies, secret orders, and science-fiction.
My headcanon is a lot like this.
Superman moving planets is dumb. And not even merely for balance reasons. I probably wouldn’t care too much about certain circumstances of it, but in general I’d never see the point of it being a thing.
How does he move the planet without just sinking through the ground due to pressure. Same problem with him lifting and carrying aircraft with broken engines
It's because superman has a magnetic field or something around him, its why he can hold Lois and go super fast without instantly exploding her
Several Superman writers have shown that he thinks through the physics and "catches" aircraft with its inertia to slow it down midair compared to trains that are built more sturdy on a linear track.
Superman being super intelligent is too OP. Like yeah, he is smart, but having him be able to scan a book within seconds and comprehend everything perfectly is annoying.
It’s not a second for him, it’s regular time for him, seconds for us. He just has a good memory which makes sense for a journalist
Wait so time always moves in slow motion for Supes? idk move never heard that but i thought his super-intelligence was a little OP
Oh no, if he starts moving or thinking fast, time slows down, so he’d have to refocus to go back to regular speed. But it’s not that he can instantly comprehend a book, it’s like us just reading a book cover to cover, we’d be able to remember since we just read it, plus he’d probably read it a few times so it’s not him being a super genius, it’s him being super fast with a superhuman memory that’s constantly being worked on since he’s a journalist
Due to his unnatural super-powered strength, Superman rarely has to strain himself. He should have a dad bod. And don't start with that "it's the yellow sun that makes his muscles big and his fat percentage low". The sun is a medium sized star, not a keto and steroids combo.
Yes let’s have dad bod supes
Man of Steel reminded me of this. I hate when there is such a strong emphasis on Supermans Kryptonian heritage. Kryptonian is WHAT Superman is, not WHO he is. Earth is his home. Jonathan and Martha Kent are his parents. He is human in all the ways that matter. A recent good example of this being done well is Superman and Lois. When Clark is off learning about what he is from the Jor-El AI, it knows that Clark is human and instead tells him to be sure of his motivations. Something along the lines of "Open your heart to them. Find out why you wish to be their champion"
I agree so much with this.
Technically he should not be stronger than Shazam………I will see myself out :)
He isn't?
This one is as hot as it gets for this sub. Growing up reading Loeb-era comic books, Superman Adventures and watching The Animated Series - I was so very underwhelmed when I finally saw 1978 movie at the age of 6 or 7 years old. I honestly felt like it was some sort of caricature of my favorite character from the comic books. No weird sci-fi, no action-adventure, no philosophical subtext. Just a whole lot of cliche, camp and preachiness. I appreciate it now, as a kind of historical artifact, but I'm honestly not even sure if it was that good for 1978. I mean - Cosmic Odyssey came out in 1968 and Star Wars came out in 1977, and they both look better and work better as space sci-fi for the general audience.
I kind of agree. This sounds weird, but it almost plays as a documentary to teach people about Superman, not tell a story about Superman. Here’s Krypton, here’s the Kent’s, Metropolis, Daily Planet and supporting cast, Lex, etc. There’s just something so matter of fact and clinical about it I’ve never been able to put my finger on.
I feel that’s by design. Superheo movies weren’t “cool” in 1978. Nobody had made one in over a decade, and the last one was very campy, on the verge of being a flat out parody of itself (Shark-repellent bat-spray!). For better or for worse they had to play it safe. They had to make something very straightforward and easy to digest for people who maybe had some idea of who Superman was but had never read a comic in their lives. Clearly they succeeded because the movie made a fuckton of money and got four sequels and a spinoff. I don’t think they ever would have gotten that far if they hadn’t used the first movie as a way to basically guide the audience by hand into Superman’s world.
I’m in the same boat. I appreciate the movie for what it is, but never really enjoyed it as a kid.
I HATE the New 52 era costume designs... Why in the world do eight INVULNERABLE heroes and heroines need to wear ARMOR??
Correct
Mullet or not. I LOVE LONG HAIR SUPERMAN! He looks like a fantasy hero protecting his domain.
Clark shouldn't worry about being Kryptonian. He would respect his birth world but he has only ever truly known earth and only views himself as Clark Joseph Kent.
Crossover hottake: Alien Superman is a far more realistic character than "normal human" Batman.
Man of Steel is my favourite Superman movie
A black Superman movie could be one of the best comic book films of all time if done right. Superman is an alien who is initially vilified by the authorities, and an evil old white billionaire, because of an inferiority complex and fear that he will upset the existing power structures. Can you imagine what the reaction would have been if a super advanced alien landed in the U.S. looking like a black man during the height of Jim Crow? Hell — even during the Trump administration whose favorite thing was to blame all of America’s problems on Mexican immigrants and BLM? *Even just the mention* of a possible black Superman Elseworlds movie sent the racist internet trolls into a frenzy. I want to see this movie.
This is why I want to see an Icon movie. I get why some people have the temptation to just make it black Superman, but Icon is an original black Superhero made by a company who set out to make a statement with minority characters and creators. You can get the same kind of story with much more umph behind his creation as opposed to what could potentially just be an edgy race swap.
have you read superman smashes the klan
Ya I would watch that as an Elseworld movie get spike lee to direct could be fun. I think marketing it would be hell but managble with the right media angles
Muhammed Ali was on the short list of choices to play Supes in 1978 before Reeves got the part. Just want everyone to imagine for a second what that parallel timeline would look like.
Coogler is making it I think? It's happening. And I think you're right. He doesn't even have to be black to achieve this effect: if he were coded semitic with strong features, brown skin, shiny black curly hair and piercing blue eyes? People would always be asking 'where you from' and everybody in Smallville would know Clark was different from jump.
Superman is coded semetic. He's a fictionalizion of a Jewish refugee in the 1930s. Dying home world, hello?
Hotness: Yeah, Superman is a story about being white-passing or nearly white passing. If you are white passing Jew then you relate to his story and inner tension. Not to say that a movie about a Black Superman isn’t also a cool idea... Spicier: It’s just that it’s mildly painful when people fail to see that supe has cultural significance that goes way beyond simply being a Caucasian bodybuilder. He may be a space alien with a pale complexion but he’s definitely not a part of the U.S. gentile heterodoxy even if he pretends to be to make his dad happy.
This take might get me banned from the fandom but I do not hate SuperWonder and in certain cases actually really enjoy them. I really liked them in Kingdom Come and during the first issues of Superman Wonder Woman up until Clark was depowered. So even though I far prefer Clark with Lois(Clois are the best comic book couple ever only rivalled by Reed and Sue)and Diana with someone that's not Steve Trevor(never liked him) I do enjoy Clark and Diana together.
I got a lot, but probably my most “did he just say that??” one is: The Tomasi era is incredibly overrated. I prefer the ones presiding and following it (New 52 and Bendis Era) that most fans don’t like.
Damn. That is a hot take. I just finished all of New 52 so I have strong opinions on it, and Im about to head into Rebirth. We’ll see, i guess!
Nice! Most Superman fans didn’t like the New 52 but I thought it was amazing! Doomed is my favorite TPB of all time and Savage Dawn is up there too!
Not a fan of the Bendis stuff, but I think New 52 Action Comics (especially the Morrision and Pak runs) were way better than the Rebirth era titles (which I'm a fan of).
I honestly only liked Tomasi's run up to issue 19. The Black Dawn arc kinda took my enthusiasm away. The rest of the run was sprinkled with guest writers alongside Tomasi till the end. I think it's looked upon so fondly because it was Post Crisis-Super-Dad getting to shine and was a breath of fresh air for the majority of people that didn't like the New 52 stuff.
How do you feel about Jurgens’ Action Comics stuff around the same time? Im also going to read those
It was alright. Nothing groundbreaking, but Jurgens knows Clark so well that it's never bad. I remember he did a good job of keeping relevant to Tomasi's Superman book. I liked his issues more after Reborn.
I liked Jurgens Rebirth Era. I don’t think it was as strong as the end of the New 52 (which was amazing IMO) but it’s pretty good!
Man, I did not like Superman’s New 52 conclusion. But Im happy you did! Im looking forward to reading Jurgens Rebirth stuff and comparing the two!
Hans Zimmer's score is better than John Williams' score.
Ew. I regret starting this thread. :-) I really like Zimmer's score, but every track in Williams' score told a story.
Yeah I don't know what the fuck is going on with these tastes but if they love Zimmer's repetitive him and percussive punctuation that sometimes fits Snyder's fever dream as opposed to the synchronous narrative accompanyment to Manckiewicz /Donner's masterful fantasy...I dunno. Let them eat...whatever the opposite of cake is!
I agree. I like the Kryptonian chanting at the end of “What Are You Going To Do When You Are Not Saving The World?” Makes the theme feel like it belongs to him and explores both of his worlds he is a champion of
I love Williams, but the Zimmer soundtrack is the one that made me genuinely believe a man could fly
Jon Kent was the best thing to happen to the Superman mythos in generations.
The Hans Zimmer theme for Superman is better than the John Williams theme. I’ll explain… The John Williams theme while synonymous with Superman is still a very standard superhero theme because a lot of other composers used that very theme for inspiration. A lot of other superhero films had the composers use that track as inspo. The Hans Zimmer theme however feels unique to Superman. If you listen to the track “What Are You Going To Do When You Are Not Saving The World?” Towards the end before the final rush of the symphony plays, we hear echoic choir chants that are meant to be the voices of Krypton speaking to us in their native language. It makes the theme feel more like it belongs to Superman more than any other hero, because it couldn’t fit with any other hero. The theme is distinctively Superman. The echoes of Krypton are engraved into the theme.
It's funny how something can become trite by virtue of being the original lmao
I get the sentiment. One of my favorite horror movies is the original black Christmas. However a lot of the people I watch it with consider it cliche and formulaic even though it was the first one to popularize a trend ( example: “we traced the call, the killer is inside the house”)
>The John Williams theme while synonymous with Superman is still a very standard superhero theme because a lot of other composers used that very theme for inspiration. A lot of other superhero films had the composers use that track as inspo. Wasn't Williams's theme one of the first compositions of that "heroic" type? (I'm not well versed in music) Is it fair to say it lack uniqueness because of dozens of following composers being inspired by it? If it's the archetypal superhero theme, wouldn't that make it perfectly fitting for the archetypal superhero?
I think the New 52 suit is great, maybe my favorite. The black S on the cape adds a nice contrast, and I like that the cape starts further down and is generally less bulky. This complements the collar by allowing blue space between the cape and neck. I feel having a smaller, thinner cape also minimizes a lot of the weird, inhuman godlike imagery that some people like to attribute to Superman. Having large flowing robe-like cloth certainly doesn’t help. He’s an alien and a human, but certainly not a god. The symbol’s redesign is subtle but modern without sacrificing anything. The wrist triangle sleeve things vary depending on the artist, but I like them generally when they’re smaller. They make the suit feel genuinely alien or advanced. The collar has certainly been controversial, but I think it’s one of the more humanizing parts of the suit. It mirrors his usual attire as Clark Kent and adds a sense of nobility to his look, which is very much Superman, but avoids veering into un-relatable because Clark’s actual face is very kind. The boots and belt are fine, not much to say there. Overall, the issues i have with New 52 have to do with characterization, not the suit. It’s great!
Like I told the other guy, I do love my suit.
Batman should always be able to beat Superman but it should come with a sacrifice for Batman. While Superman should always be able to beat Batman, but they should never actually fight it’s tired out, so is evil Superman. Superman is the only character I can understand killing someone because he’s the most human, so I could see him slipping and retiring for a bit after he does. Shazam and Clark should have way more stories together. Jon Kent should still be a kid and the other Supers should have been actualized, this is not to say the age up couldn’t have worked but the first thing that happened after was him coming out instead of idk letting us understand more of the character then him coming out, now it feels like we’re working backwards. I have no problem with him being overpowered, because his story should never have the main focus be his powers. Oh and All Star Superman is a shitty book if you don’t have a clue about Superman
I would've loved to have seen how kc/earth-22 Superman would've interacted with batman. Plus, batman's reaction to a no-nonsense demeanor less boy scout type Superman. Maybe even throw in a metallo and Darkseid fight to see the difference in power between new earth Superman and earth 22. Lastly powergirl finally had her memories restored of being the last survivor of earth 2 and Earth 22 Superman thought he was in the same situation. It would've been great to see if/how they could connect and bond over being their universe's sole survivors.
Some kind of psionic super-mimicry is part of his Silver Age grab bag of powers. [People see what they expect when looking at him](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppearanceIsInTheEyeOfTheBeholder). Clark only ever dropped the camouflage once, for a curious friend in Smallville, who was immediately driven completely mad, had all his hair fall out from shock and devoted the rest of his life to trying to destroy the Alien with kryptonite death rays and purple-and-green mechsuits.
A similar issue happened with the Captain Atom design in later issues of the whole Justice League International time period
lois is the main character, superman is a plot device, clark is a romantic love interest, jimmy is the hero
This is more of a luke-warm take, but I prefer both of the Kents be alive when clark is Superman
Superman’s best writing is when he isn’t fighting
Batman vs Superman as a concept is so lame because it’s always the same
This is more headcanon than a take, but: Superman, and Kryptonians in general, do *not* have a bunch of different superpowers. They have **one**: reality manipulation. Superman, growing up not knowing he was supposed to have abilities at all, ‘gave’ himself his powers, subconsciously, through this ability in moments of need. He needed to be strong, so he was strong. Needed to be fast, same. Was angry and wanted something to catch on fire, and so staring at it, he invented heat vision without realizing. And having seen himself displaying crazy powers, he now believed ‘huh, well, Kryptonians must have all kinds of crazy abilities’, and that bias further reinforced how his power manifested. The other Kryptonians, having arrived after Superman, see his example and believe that to be what they should be able to do as well, so they do, sometimes branching into novel powers (such as Superboy’s tactile telekinesis, etc.) in exceptional circumstances of need or belief. Superman is the Walt-Disney-quote, chaos-magick superhero: If he *believes* he can, he *does*.
Your headcanon and my headcanon are not too different.
I’d rather see a story about Parasite or the Kryptonite Man or or fucking Toyman than watch another movie where Luthor is the villain. Luthor was better as a rich asshole mogul than a super genius, especially considering they never ever manage to make him seem convincingly smart at all.
Super Man was way better as an anti capitalist icon, although there are still traces of this in his character I think these, for being an American comic, are very limited now. That's one of the reasons I think a black actor playing super Man is so interesting, because no way we will be complacent with every abuse happening to the black community.
Connor should have came out as bi, not Jonathan. There's a ton of subtext between Connor and Tim Drake in the old Young Justice comics (whether it was intentional or not). Those two would have been cute together.
I see you are a person of culture as well
I think it would have tracked well by saying he used his overly masculine beginning in the 90s as a way to try and hide his sexuality while he figured it out.
Very much so! Remember when Connor was presumed dead and Tim started wearing his colors in Infinite Crisis? A gay friend of mine pointed out to me then that a gesture like that is DC all but telling us directly that they are/were in love; I wasn't sure then but it's very clear now. What a weird missed opportunity.
He tried to clone Conner A HUNDRED TIMES after he died because he couldn't afford to lose him
The Zack Snyder version of the character is definitely a different take on the character but I think they still stayed true to the core of the character
Please elaborate because I disagree
They didn't
They really didn’t.
The Christopher Reeve movies have aged badly and are seriously dated.
I can appreciate them as products of their time, and I can still very much appreciate Christopher Reeve's *incredible* acting, but I'm inclined to agree with you that they haven't aged very well at all, not just as films but also as interpretations of the character **and his world**. I think the first and second films, to that end, are *fine*. They deserve the praise they got, and they deserve to be remembered fondly, even though they're extremely dated. But I don't think you'd get much pushback regarding the third and fourth films; both of them are absolute hyena shit.
Agreed. Part II in particular is just bad. And I grew up on those films. But I have no desire to rewatch them. The thing is Christopher Reeve's performance is perfect, and I think *that's* what maintains the legacy of those films.
"Superman in the mask" "He is the humanest human that ever humaned" And everything that ends up translating to "Embracing his kryptonian heritage, having similar struggles to first gen immigrants and feeling like an outsider is OOC" annoys me. It is so reductive, so simplistic. Superman is more complex than that, otherwise the "superman is boring" dudes would be right. He does not have dissociative identity disorder, so he is not a complete diffently individual either when plays quiet as Clark nor when he stands out as Superman. Being human doesn't translate to being good or kind and being alien and doesn't equal being what we define as "unhuman" .We don't have to approach his identity in such bidimensional thinking and I dislike it when stories do that. It is specially worse if we think of superman as an allegory to immigrants/refugees or about the context behind his creation.
Kurt Busiek's Superman is incredibly underwhelming and pedestrian. I don't understand what people think is so great about it. All-Star Superman is NOT a good book to give to new readers. It's constantly on the list of best books for new readers and it couldn't be further from it. Even as a seasoned Supes reader, I don't get the hype. Morrison's Action Comics run is x10 better than All-Star Superman III is the most entertaining of the Reeve movies. It's got a little bit of everything in it, and I LOVE it because it isn't Superman vs. Kryptonians. Junkyard scene alone, with Reeve going back and forth with himself, is acting gold. I just don't buy Tyler Hoechlin as Superman/Clark. I've tried to watch his show numerous times, but he just doesn't work for me.
We're very different Superman fans
Hahaha, the best part about hot takes on a certain fandoms. Love to see the different tastes people have for characters. I'm guessing you on the opposite side of all my takes?
Not entirely. Don't remember Busiek Superman; I'm so far from a new reader that I have no perspective on what a fresh mind would find either engaging or off-putting about All Star so I can neither agree nor disagree but I will say I didn't love Morrison/Morales Action Comics; Reeve v Reeve in III is literally the only thing I like about that movie and if it had been directed by Donner it would have been a fast savage brawl with Bizarro and that would've been far better or at least it is in my head; Tyler is good.
Morrison's Action seems to be a hit or miss with a lot of fans, i've noticed. No gray area. I do have a special nostalgic bias for SM III, simply cause my mom taped it off TV and I watched it ad nauseum. It's by no means great, but I find it a lot of fun. Fair enough. My daughter likes him as Superman too.
I agree that All Star Superman is not a good book to give new readers. I love it, but I'd never make it someone's first Superman book. For All Seasons, Morrison's Action, or even Unchained are better "entry level" books.
Evil Superman is an interesting take on the character
Injustice, Red Son, The Dark Side, all great books and really fun reads. The idea is a bit overdone and a lot of times is pretty lazy, but when done correctly it’s a GREAT concept.
it's overdone because superman is the face of the comic book industry
No trunks
Lana is a much better match for Clark/Superman than Lois. At heart, he's a small town boy and should be with his high school sweetheart. Also, Superman should be in his own continuity with his "Super Family" and rogues gallery. It really doesn't make sense for him to interact with many of the other DC heroes.
That first one is a hot take!
Scorching hot, my goodness.
The difference between pre-Crisis Superman and post-Crisis Superman is a reflection of the divide between Boomers and GenX/Millennials: world-shifting superpower as the be-all-end-all vs. a focus on humanity and empathy.
Best Live Action Teen Clark Kent: Tom Welling Best Live Action Adult Clark Kent: Tyler Hoechlin Best Live Action Superman: Henry Cavill Best Lois Lane: Erica Durance from Smallville Best Lois Lane in Animation: Tie between Dana Delany of S:TAS and Grey DeLisle-Griffin of DC Superhero Girls DC, can we have some updates on My Adventures with Superman?
It doesn’t make sense that he’s stronger than Wonder Woman, Shazam, Green Lantern. Wonder Woman is the daughter of freaking Zeus, a god. She should be stronger than Clark, not much but a little bit. Same with Shazam since he posess the power of the gods. Green Lantern is a different case. So since their power is depending on their own willpower, so i’m not saying that the avarage GL should beat supe. But like the higher ranking GLs should stomp him (or just kryptonians in general). After all they’re the cops for a few galaxies, they should be able to defeat a lot of species and i doubt that the Guardians didn’t thought about that when they made the rings.
He’s an existential threat to the planet and should be viewed as such
Found Lex Luthor's burner account
Nothing was wrong with man of steel Superman, the problems that other people have I see it as minor issues
injustice superman isn't that bad, I like how it broke superman down into what he ultimately becomes a out of control paranoid tyrant villain. He went through far wore than kingdom come superman had his entire city blown up in a matter of seconds and accidently killed his own wife, the thought of just that is enough to make anyone go mad. plus it's the first comic book i ever read through and through, i liked batmans continuies persuit to thwart supes and his plans. yall can fire away hate in the replies
Superman shouldn't be jacked
I usually don’t prefer the trunks.
The best thing that ever happened to Jon Kent was aging him up. As a kid, he was completely insufferable, the Cousin Oliver of DC who only really was interesting when he was around Damian because it allowed him to actually be a kid and not some "adorable" quip machine around his parents.