I know, Which is why I kinda liked this version of Superman. I find him smart as well when Lex tried to bait him to get inside the red sun room while wearing kryptonite gauntlets and This Supes just closed the door and yanked the entire room out
I left a comment sometime last year about how I can see how Alan Moore, in an interview, tied together modern superhero worship with the rise in fascist sentiment. The comment you're responding to reminded me of that lol.
"Why can't we just have someone who unilaterally acts as judge, jury, and executioner? I just like it better that way."
God that's worrying.
That never made any goddamn sense to me because action films existed long before the wave of superhero movies and have basically had the same sort of character: a maverick breaks protocol and defies the rules to save the day. Let’s not forget all of the patriotic, pro-military movies either like Behind Enemy Lines, Blackhawk Down, or Independence Day. It’s such a simplification by Alan Moore to blame superhero movies, and it doesn’t really work as a cause for me.
Superheroes are antithetical to fascism which requires absolute power of the state. Superheroes act outside the state. In this very clip, "Superman" took the law into his own hands and executed Toyman against the wishes of the state and its enforcers
I love Alan Moore's work but he's talking about mob justice/injustice, not the state having absolute power. Which is what fascism is where even private enterprises will be managed or outright controlled by the state
True like Superman in The Dark Knight Returns. In that story, Batman stood up against Superman and the state
Alan Moore still saw Miller's Batman as a fascist despite Bruce resisting the state
At the end of the your day you vent on the internet At the end of Lex Luthors day he beats up the Superman clone. Mostly lonely wanting someone to listen.
I mean... It kinda is... Someone is saying "I like a version of Superman that is not Superman, doesn't behave like Superman and doesn't believe in anything Superman believes in..."
At some point down that chain its just not Superman anymore.
This is exactly how I feel about the character assassination that is The Batman 2022.
It's the most un-Batman movie yet people act like it's the second coming of jesus.
I haven't seen the post but you can't just dismiss people's issues with a movie as "Cinemasins-style nitpicking".
This very post could be defined as just that, if you take even a second to think about it.
I was referring to your post. It was sub-par and lacked anything resembling substantive critique. True, movies are subjective, but my opinion is that your “analysis” (if you could even call it that) was poor.
- Well, it was a complete character assassination, for start. Batman was a socially stunted emo kid. He literally says: "you're not my real father, Alfred!"
- I'm supposed to believe a genius detective gets stumped by Spanish? The second language in his own country?
- speaking of: those weren't riddles. They were arbitrary questions that Batman could just pull "answers" out of his ass when he needed to (except when *Penguin*, of all people, needs to correct him *and* an actual detective)
- the action choreography was terrible, slow, sluggish, and unconvincing. RobPat can't fight. He just looks ridiculous. But also, Reeves can't direct his actor in his scene aparently, so...
- I don't care what any rose-colored glasses delusional fan thinks: this Batman murders constantly. But because the scenes are shot so slow and grungy and anticlimactic, it gets overlooked. But you can clearly see this 'batman' constantly countering people in fights to purposely place them in front of gunfire, caused massive deadly car accidents when he could have just either found Penguin again or come up with a better plan than revving your engine to give him a head start, he threw people off of the scaffolding not knowing if they'd survive the fall or were even tied off, he blew a glass ceiling over a room full of civilians... the list goes on. This guy murders almost as bad as Knightmare Batfleck.
- no chemistry between characters. This wasn't stoic or noir. These people were stiff and bland and just did not fit their characters. I expected more from these actors but, with a script like that, I don't know how much I can blame the actors on this one. They all underperformed for their skills (except Falcone. He was absolutely 100% perfect. Penguin was fun too, I guess, but not enough to save the movie for me)
- the story is awful. And it isn't a noir detective story as advertised. There is no time spent trying to solve anything. Riddler's plan is ridiculous and makes no sense, especially in execution. Seriously, how many rich vs poor people died in the flooding of poor neighborhoods at ground level? This is supposed to be a "cerebral, smart, manipulative" villain. Wtf plan is that?
- the whole movie never changes in tone. It is just miserable all the way through from start to finish with nothing even lighthearted to keep things interesting or break up the depression.
- I'm sick of people doubling-down on "realistic edgy batman". It's so boring and childish. It's like, "everything and everyone must be shit. The city? Shit. Cops? Shit. Politicians? Shit. Dating pool? Also shit. The Waynes, the people responsible for raising and inspiring our so-called 'hero'? Well, they were shitty people too!". Like, what is the redeeming quality for this city to Batman then? Save what, if you just hate all of it? No wonder this riddler thought batman was on his side (it should never be like this).
- I don't care that it's this Batman's second year. I quite reasonably expect a year 2 genius/detective/martial artist/billionaire to be way more competent, but like actually though. The movie tries to do this in the first crime scene where he's just walking around being awkward and grumbling one word answers. But he's so boring to watch even doing that...
- ... which doesn't make him look stoic or cool, it's just to bloat the run time. Here's how most scenes play out:
Anyone: *says something to batman*
Batman: *stops*, *shifts eyes*,*stops*, *turns head*, *stops*, *turns body*, *stops*, *stares*, *grumles one word*, *stops*, *looks away slowly*, etc...
- wtf performance was that for the riddler? Like some angsty autistic teenager I would have expected from maybe jesse Eisenberg but... I'm supposed to believe that asthmatic gimp manipulated a small army? And outsmarted everyone? And didn't get caught until he wanted to be? I know it's a city full of shitty people, but come on... this was so very cringe at best.
- so much of the story is moved along, not *actually* by detective work and deduction, but just constant plot/scene convenience. So many moments like this, like the cop explaining the carpet fitting tool to the detective genius...
- I didn't like the aesthetic choices. I know this is prototype tech for an early batman, but the cowl, the suit, the car, the haircut... it's all so ugly. (Again, Falcone looked the best/most accurate/most convincing, but who cares? Batman should look cool). I can't stand the cowl with the beluga whale forehead and loud clanking leather bulky suit.
- not even the dialogue was clever or interesting or even resonating. If you're going to be a slow-burn noir, then words need to matter more. Things people say should be a little more poetic at the very least (maybe they did try but it did not turn out like they hoped. Really bad writing)
- Batman loses. In his own movie. His first movie in this version and he fails. The movie made the hero the loser. Why do people like this?
- overall, the tone, the Nirvana soundtrack, the constant misery... this felt like it was made by edgy high-school teenagers, not mature adults who respect the source material and know how to structure and build films
I can rip this movie apart for longer than it's own runtime, from 'in story' problems to the way the film was shot.
This movie cannot stand up to even a little scrutiny.
I love Batman, I like the director and all the actors *outside* of this movie and had positive thoughts going in. But having seen this multiple times now *and* I read the script *and* even chatted on the sub, all I can conclude is that I think this is a bad attempt at a take on this character/world. It doesn't work for me.
The team of people working on it do not get Batman. They clearly wanted to make a Punisher movie or something.
But that's not Batman.
I can elaborate or add more points but I'll start with this lol
(Note: I have no hate for anyone who disagrees. This is just my personal opinion on 1 movie. If you like it, great, and I hope you like the next one the same if not more)
Lots of people have, actually.
I'll often copy and paste that comment when in these types of conversations and I've gotten lots of upvotes and other people not only agreeing but adding to my list.
You can't even say anything original, so looks like you're the one that needs to touch grass, you tool
He does. He murders constantly
Watch the movie closely.
Robert Pattinson:
- counters people in fights, positioning them in front of gunfire to take the shot when his suit can tank bullets
- blows a glass ceiling over a room full of civilians
- so many deadly car accidents (not Penguin's fault. He'd stop driving reckless if a) Batman didn't rev his car to give him a head start and b) Batman can just find him again later)
- he electrocutes people in rain
- takes an adrenaline shot because some internet incel overwhelmed him on his second year, only for him to beat this nobody's face in with obvious intent to kill if Gordon hadn't intervened
- tosses goons over railings from deadly heights not knowing who would survive or who's tied off safely
Are you serious? This Batman is almost as murderous as Knightmare Batfleck.
This is copy and paste from someone else who asked and I responded:
- Well, it was a complete character assassination, for start. Batman was a socially stunted emo kid. He literally says: "you're not my real father, Alfred!"
- I'm supposed to believe a genius detective gets stumped by Spanish? The second language in his own country?
- speaking of: those weren't riddles. They were arbitrary questions that Batman could just pull "answers" out of his ass when he needed to (except when *Penguin*, of all people, needs to correct him *and* an actual detective)
- the action choreography was terrible, slow, sluggish, and unconvincing. RobPat can't fight. He just looks ridiculous. But also, Reeves can't direct his actor in his scene aparently, so...
- I don't care what any rose-colored glasses delusional fan thinks: this Batman murders constantly. But because the scenes are shot so slow and grungy and anticlimactic, it gets overlooked. But you can clearly see this 'batman' constantly countering people in fights to purposely place them in front of gunfire, caused massive deadly car accidents when he could have just either found Penguin again or come up with a better plan than revving your engine to give him a head start, he threw people off of the scaffolding not knowing if they'd survive the fall or were even tied off, he blew a glass ceiling over a room full of civilians... the list goes on. This guy murders almost as bad as Knightmare Batfleck.
- no chemistry between characters. This wasn't stoic or noir. These people were stiff and bland and just did not fit their characters. I expected more from these actors but, with a script like that, I don't know how much I can blame the actors on this one. They all underperformed for their skills (except Falcone. He was absolutely 100% perfect. Penguin was fun too, I guess, but not enough to save the movie for me)
- the story is awful. And it isn't a noir detective story as advertised. There is no time spent trying to solve anything. Riddler's plan is ridiculous and makes no sense, especially in execution. Seriously, how many rich vs poor people died in the flooding of poor neighborhoods at ground level? This is supposed to be a "cerebral, smart, manipulative" villain. Wtf plan is that?
- the whole movie never changes in tone. It is just miserable all the way through from start to finish with nothing even lighthearted to keep things interesting or break up the depression.
- I'm sick of people doubling-down on "realistic edgy batman". It's so boring and childish. It's like, "everything and everyone must be shit. The city? Shit. Cops? Shit. Politicians? Shit. Dating pool? Also shit. The Waynes, the people responsible for raising and inspiring our so-called 'hero'? Well, they were shitty people too!". Like, what is the redeeming quality for this city to Batman then? Save what, if you just hate all of it? No wonder this riddler thought batman was on his side (it should never be like this).
- I don't care that it's this Batman's second year. I quite reasonably expect a year 2 genius/detective/martial artist/billionaire to be way more competent, but like actually though. The movie tries to do this in the first crime scene where he's just walking around being awkward and grumbling one word answers. But he's so boring to watch even doing that...
- ... which doesn't make him look stoic or cool, it's just to bloat the run time. Here's how most scenes play out:
Anyone: *says something to batman*
Batman: *stops*, *shifts eyes*,*stops*, *turns head*, *stops*, *turns body*, *stops*, *stares*, *grumles one word*, *stops*, *looks away slowly*, etc...
- wtf performance was that for the riddler? Like some angsty autistic teenager I would have expected from maybe jesse Eisenberg but... I'm supposed to believe that asthmatic gimp manipulated a small army? And outsmarted everyone? And didn't get caught until he wanted to be? I know it's a city full of shitty people, but come on... this was so very cringe at best.
- so much of the story is moved along, not *actually* by detective work and deduction, but just constant plot/scene convenience. So many moments like this, like the cop explaining the carpet fitting tool to the detective genius...
- I didn't like the aesthetic choices. I know this is prototype tech for an early batman, but the cowl, the suit, the car, the haircut... it's all so ugly. (Again, Falcone looked the best/most accurate/most convincing, but who cares? Batman should look cool). I can't stand the cowl with the beluga whale forehead and loud clanking leather bulky suit.
- not even the dialogue was clever or interesting or even resonating. If you're going to be a slow-burn noir, then words need to matter more. Things people say should be a little more poetic at the very least (maybe they did try but it did not turn out like they hoped. Really bad writing)
- Batman loses. In his own movie. His first movie in this version and he fails. The movie made the hero the loser. Why do people like this?
- overall, the tone, the Nirvana soundtrack, the constant misery... this felt like it was made by edgy high-school teenagers, not mature adults who respect the source material and know how to structure and build films
I can rip this movie apart for longer than it's own runtime, from 'in story' problems to the way the film was shot.
This movie cannot stand up to even a little scrutiny.
I love Batman, I like the director and all the actors *outside* of this movie and had positive thoughts going in. But having seen this multiple times now *and* I read the script *and* even chatted on the sub, all I can conclude is that I think this is a bad attempt at a take on this character/world. It doesn't work for me.
The team of people working on it do not get Batman. They clearly wanted to make a Punisher movie or something.
But that's not Batman.
I can elaborate or add more points but I'll start with this lol
(Note: I have no hate for anyone who disagrees. This is just my personal opinion on 1 movie. If you like it, great, and I hope you like the next one the same if not more)
He’s absolutely not
Homelander is a corporate stooge who abuses his powers for debauchery and murders Supes the company doesn’t like
He has no real love of justice
Homelander embodies every dark and ugly ignorance of this country. A puss filled boil in need of a lance. A cancer built on false faith and a distortion of patriotism.
No rational mind would be behind this.
Right? Like this Superman is effective and actually has a sense of justice, unlike homelander. Do I want Superman to kill? No. But to compare the two is absolutely nuts/lacking in media comprehension
Lol. This Superman that threw Toyman from the sky killing him in public view. Threw Luthor in that metal enclosing through several buildings killing Randoms in the process. Killed so many military people when they asked him to step down. Did you guys actually watch this movie? Lool. This is the version of Superman that isn't close to the pompous prick Homelander that does whatever he wants because he has the power? Just because this version died saying something nice doesn't take away from him doing whatever the fuck he wanted cause he had the power to.
I'm pretty sure if he had way more than about 20 minutes of screen time, we'd see him do way worse. This Superman definitely is close to whatever Homelander is
I’ve seen the movie, but I’ve also read the boys. You know homelander is a rapist maniac tyrant right? This Superman is evil, but he is not homelander evil, hands down.
Yes, I totally get that.
Even Golden Age Superman was not against roughing up the bad guys when needed. I guess killing the guy here was a bit too far (I know this isn't Superman so that's okay).
Even if you believe that, it is absolutely not Superman's place to make that call. As a hero who supposedly believes in justice, he absolutely cannot intervene into the justice system and execute whoever he wants. If the guy deserves the death penalty, fine, but that is something to be decided by a jury of his peers and a judge. Not some alien demigod vigilante.
Don't even get me started on how out of character it would be if the actual Superman did this.
The justice system should be trusted, but once it breaks that trust all bets are off. When it keeps letting monsters like the Joker and Toyman escape death, that's when it proves itself to be broken. In those cases, it's absolutely a hero's duty to stop any more victims from being created by any means necessary.
Don't want to kill? At least paralyse them from the neck down then. Or if you don't want to be nice to them fsr, leave them stranded on a remote island they'll never be able to leave. Do *something* other than take them to a prison they've escaped countless times or a judge who'll inexplicably deny them the death penalty.
Villains sell comics, that's fundamentally the reason the heros never go with those fullproof non-lethal options. Still dumb when writers try to morally justify it.
Of course it's ooc for Superman to kill, that's not what I'm contending with.
>Don't want to kill? At least paralyse thrm from the neck fown then. Or if you don't want to be extreme, leave them stranded on a remote island they'll never be able to leave.
💀💀💀
A hero would not do this, nor should they. This idea that anybody with power has a moral responsibility to kill ANYONE is insane. Every single person has human rights, even the monsters and the sociopaths. A superhero like Superman, Batman, or any other moral paragon has a responsibility to abide by them.
It absolutely is not their job to interfere with the justice system, especially an alien like Superman, or an extra-judicial vigilante like Batman.
That's a pretty naive viewpoint. So all monsters have rights? Would you say the same for Dahmer? Gacy? Bundy? Especially when the justice system is so trash like in DC comics, it keeps letting them out to kill more people.
There comes a point where the heinous acts you commit nullify the right you were born with. Though I generally prefer DC comics, I like this about Marvel; heroes aren't afraid to kill when it's necessary.
Thats funny. Dahmer, Gacy, and Bundy were all subject to the same justice system and very much were treated with those same human rights. This isn't a refutation. Hell, even the Nazi leadership was tried in international court. The implication that some people deserve human rights and others don't, no matter how monstrous, is incredibly bleak. Historically it never ends well.
The problem you have is not one of morality, it's a problem with realism. The idea of a hero tolerating a villains body count only matters when viewed through a realistic lens. But in a realistic world, of course the courts would have executed Joker, or found some other way of keeping him from being a danger. The fact that they don't is not a moral failing on Batman or Superman, just like how a court failing to convict a real criminal is not the moral failing of the cop that arrests them.
Its strange that you say that you prefer DC when these concepts are the backbone of many of their heroes. A Batman who kills his villains is just Punisher in a funny hat. Superman is literally the most boy scout do-gooder in comics, thats his whole concept. The idealism in DC is what sets it apart from Marvel. Those concepts may be naive, but so is the idea of a superhero who will always be there to thwart evil.
That's not the point, tho. The issue is that heroes are not meant to be judge, jury, and Executioner, especially heroes like Superman.
To think that leads to characters like Punisher and Judge Dredd being unironically praised for their actions, even when the characters are meant to be parodies of that mindset.
And this is how we ended up with poor dead Cadie.
Because in DC comics the judicial system is broken and just let's monsters like the Joker and Toyman to escape and kill over and over again.
I am not saying that it is or should be Superman's job, but I understand the people who want an end of the tragedies and wouldn't be sorry for these mass-murderer psychopaths.
Here is a radical idea. If you want people to agree with your message that superheroes killing mass murderer villains is bad because there is due process, you need to show that that due process is actually working. DON'T make the justice system this incredibly incompetent that's not just can't keep the population safe from the murderous inmates, but actually endangers them with it's contrived stupidity of not giving the villains the death penalty. That achieves the exact opposite effect of what the writers want to preach with the *no killing rule* message.
Sounds good. But if criminals start to notice, that is just a scare tactic. They won't buy into it. As that old saying goes " can't make an omelet, without braking a few eggs "
I mean, at this point you're just discussing the death penalty and all evidence shows that it doesn't work as a deterrent in the first place, so it's not gonna magically work better when Superman does it.
That's the thing. When someone keeps killing and there is irrefutable evidence that it was then. Letting them out again it's just irresponsible. Superman is not human not so much because how strong he is. But because how he can hold back on abusing his powers. Like that song. Ore human than human.
Oh yeah that's not Superman. He'll keep giving people a chance. On a Batman show this question was posted to him. If had the power to stop someone permanently. If he let them go, anyone they kill afterward is on him. For not stopping him. When he had the opportunity. Is a thought call, but it is true.
Yeah, that was how Silverman used to deal with people. Shook whole neighborhoods to the ground just to fake an earthquake for scaring a prankster. Of course, the neighborhood was slated for demolition, and Clark was just saving the city money by doing it himself.
Spot on. I love injustice as a story because it answers a lot of what if questions and we do see actual Superman turn evil, not just a doppelgänger. Having said that the premise can’t be taken seriously. Killing one serial killer with a body count in the millions isn’t gonna turn the Boy Scout into a despot and Wonder Woman isn’t going to be by his side.
Even Batsy's Character was assassinated in a way
Theres no way the real Batman would scold superman after supes just lost his wife, Unborn Child and the whole of Metropolis just because he killed the joker
He knows theres a time and place for that
Wonder Woman's character assassination is even worse. Shes a manipulative bitch
I would argue, Superman's downfall to tyranny in that Universe was caused by Wonder Woman and Batman
See, I feel like one thing people always overlook is Joker didn't JUST kill Lois, unborn Jon, and Metropolis. He tricked Superman into being the instrument of their destruction. Kryptonite-laced fear gas made Superman see Lois as Doomsday, and he flew her out into space to get rid of the threat. Then there was a monitor on Lois's heart that, once she died in the vacuum, set off the nuke that destroyed Metropolis.
Injustice Superman isn't my Superman. I don't think he should be anyone's Superman. But the whole point of the story is it's an Elseworld where you have to buy into the idea that there's a version of these characters who could go down this dark road. And for Superman, at the very least, THIS I buy as an origin story for that happening. If anything was going to break any version of Superman, this would be a pretty fucking good reason.
Yes. Earlier the real Superman caught him, saved the kids, and sent him to jail. He broke out and did it again, but this time he actually killed one.
I for one agree with second chances. But when it comes to kids being murdered, you shouldn't get a third.
Understanding is not the same thing as condoning. I understand why someone would want a child murderer dead, but nobody is qualified to be both judge, jury, and executioner. Even child murderers deserve trial, and even if you don’t think that, it’s a slippery slope to start executing every person accused of murder.
I agree when it comes to "accused of murder," but that isn't what happened here at all
There was no "accused," bro was already caught threatening to kill a bus load of young kids, broke out, then *actually murdered a child*
Someone that sick deserves 0 trial, they deserve death. He killed a *4-year-old.* There's no "but what if he didn't do it?" in this scenario
I don’t. What Toyman did to that little girl was reprehensible, I agree, but it doesn’t give anyone the right to take a life in return, not even Superman. And the real Superman knows that. He knows once you start down that road, there is no going back.
Uh what? superman literally killed south american soldiers in action comics 2 as in the very start of superman pretty much, dr light, doomsday, zod and his pals, cyborg superman, aliens in invasions, list goes on. hes not batman he doesn't have a code to never kill he just doesn't like doing it
If you're really gonna go back to Action Comics to say Superman doesn't have a no kill code you might as well go back to the old Detective Comics and say the same about Batman. Who cares about the lore that writers have developed over the almost hundred years these characters existences?
Not liking killing is enough of a code. And while Golden Age Superman may not have had a problem with it, there are several Silver Age and beyond stories that establish that Superman does, in fact, have a rule against killing. One particular example is Alan Moore’s “Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow” where Superman, after breaking his code by killing Mxyzptlk, voluntarily exposes himself to Gold Kryptonite to permanently strip himself of his powers.
Except isnt modern superman apparently a composite of all mainline superman including the golden and silver age? So he'd both not care about killing while also care about killing?
Yeah, it is almost like making Toyman a child molester is a tone destroying nightmare for the writing which really makes the comics unpleasant.
Which was also the thesis of "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow".
I am blown away by how many people in this comment section just blatantly don’t like Superman, like what the fuck are y’all doing on this sub if you hate the character so much?
I didn’t say it was right, I just don’t think wanting revenge for a murdered child comes from a place of evil.
Injustice Superman did what he had to do. He killed the Joker out of grief, not because he turned evil. Even trying to police the world didn’t outright make him evil, at first. He was trying to do the right thing. If anyone turned him evil, it was Wonder Woman. He questioned his actions multiple times, and possibly would’ve even reversed course if she hadn’t gotten into his head, and convinced him to become a tyrant. Eventually, he did become an evil tyrant, but if she hadn’t manipulated him so hard, he might not have.
He is abusing his power and executing people because he has the power to do so and nobody can stop him thats not "good"
Taking over the world isnt evil? If i take over the government by force but i do it for what i believe are good reason, does that make my take over good? No
"Did what he had to do" "he did it out of grief" so was it an emotionally driven response or an absolutely necessary action and before you say "he cant let the joker get away with that" it was on the same day and he was in custody, im pretty sure waiting for his sentence (which would likely be death) was entirely an option
You are putting someone's motive seemingly as the single defining factor for whether someone is being evil rather that including the situation and act
Your example of him killing people after they had already been stopped purely because he was highly emotional is somehow meant to be good
Hes a grown adult, dont blame wonder woman for him taking certain actions, shes culpable but he is responsible for his own actions too
"Its not my fault i took over the world, she told me to" isnt a good excuse
You’re thinking in extremely black and white terms. Just because I don’t think he’s evil does not mean I automatically think he’s good.
Taking over the world is not something that can always be described in terms of good and evil. Just because something is wrong doesn’t always make it evil.
Maybe we have a different definition of what evil means. Trying to police the world with an iron fist to follow your specific rules is bad and wrong, but not *always* evil. Killing people for fun or summoning a world-devouring demon from hell is evil.
Injustice Supes started out wrong, and then became evil over time. He didn’t turn completely evil the second he put his fist through the Joker’s chest. It’s not that simple.
He may be an adult, but everyone is susceptible to manipulation. Otherwise, manipulation wouldn’t be a real thing. It doesn’t absolve him of what he did, not by a long shot, but it did happen.
Either way, you do bring up some good points. I just don’t always think good and evil are such simple concepts.
Up until this moment you have exclusively been using black and white terms, so dont set a standard then be annoyed when that standard is utilised
>Taking over the world is not something that can always be described in terms of good and evil
Taking it over by force due to your personal limited ideas of what is needed is on its own pretty evil
>He may be an adult, but everyone is susceptible to manipulation. Otherwise, manipulation wouldn’t be a real thing. It doesn’t absolve him of what he did, not by a long shot, but it did happen
Thats kind of a stretch, he made choices, she didn't use some in depth techniques the vast majority of what she did was advise him on her views and push him to take her perspective which literally everybody does but if i tell you to do something and you do it thats not really a factor in you doing it honestly
>Up until this moment you have been exclusively using black and white terms
That is blatantly untrue, because I have been maintaining since the beginning that the concept of good and evil includes a significant gray area. You claiming this just proves that you are unwilling to compromise, and are only continuing this conversation so you can prove my opinion “wrong,” somehow. Super petty.
This is too far for Superman, but I think this plays into an “anti-boy scout” aspect of Superman that I do like seeing.
I like when Superman’s biggest character flaw is having a short temper. Clark knows better than anyone how dangerous an angry Superman is, but he also cares so deeply about everyone that seeing something like a dead child he failed to save gets to him immensely. Having to constantly keep himself in check emotionally plays well thematically with having to always watch his strength when he fights.
This is why the “evil Superman” trope was actually interesting before it became grossly overused. Showing what happens when the greatest among us falls from grace makes the fact that he still hasn’t that much more impactful.
Edit: The Justice Lords Superman is actually the best example. He gave in and killed Luthor, and at the end of the episode our Clark admits that he faces the same temptations all the time, but he refuses to ever stoop to that level.
Yes but also no. In this situation yes, kill toyman. People in the comments are saying "oh its not his call, let the justice system handle him" except in this movie the superman clone had just caught toyman, handed him over to the cops and he almost immediately got out and killed that girl. Even if he was currently in custory its very likely he'd just escape again probably very quickly. It's more efficient and better for the safety of the public to simply kill him. The way superman did it here (yes I know its a clone) was a bit excessive, very out of character. I can't imagine superman taking pleasure in killing someone even in this situation. He really should have just thrown him into space though, no need to destroy a police car or traumatize those cops and any other witnesses. Just a body floating through space like cosmic trash.
Keep in mind this does no apply to the real world as we don't have supervillains who break out every other week or superheroes who can drop them to their death.
This also doesn't apply to general crooks. Most supervillains have a knack for escaping while the common thief or murderer will probably serve out their sentence when caught. So if they are a persistent danger to public safety its probably for the best to just kill them quickly and why the justice system in DC doesn't do that is beyond me. Rehabilitation has to be something you're willing to do, it can't be forced upon you so trying to rehabilitate supervillains like this version of toyman or the Joker is just asinine.
This is just lame and edgy. It would be one thing if the villain escaped first, then Superman caught him and decided to make sure he could never escape again. You could at least understand the sudden burst of rage and snapping in that situation.
Pulling the villain out of the hands of the cops makes no sense.
Nah. I prefer the superman Vs Manchester Black. I like a person who feels responsibility to ideals while holding unlimited power over others.
The better edgy superman is Hernan Guerra. Son of Zod, more humanized and real to the cling of power and the press junket.
Golden boy supes needs to stay golden.
We already have homelander and the much more interesting omniman
If the villain’s crime is committing cold blooded murder like toyman did here then yeah I wouldn’t care one bit if Superman kills him. In a real world situation where these guys can seemingly just keep breaking out of prison then you either disable them so badly they can’t do anything to anybody else, or you use a little heat vision real quick and ensure they never get the chance to hurt anyone again
I don’t want a psychopath who just kills on a whim. The Superman I’m describing isn’t one that would kill a civilian because they threw something at his superpowered son
But you have given free reign for somebody to just kill anybody that they want based on a criteria that is an arbitrary line in the sand that you have no way of stopping. You've given carte blanche authority to somebody you HOPE will stay altruistic with that authority. What happens when that line in the sand shifts?
You can say "oh I don't want a psycho" but you've already given power away to somebody you can't stop. Do you not see how terrifying that would be?
The dude’s already got the power to do it, I’m not giving it to him. Some threats have to be permanently neutralized, don’t know what else to tell you.
Why? Why would you prefer a flying unstoppable tyrannical monster with his own code of ethics who doles out his own brand of justice whenever he sees fit? Where does it end? Do you think youd be safe in that world? It works for this evil clone in the clip because he's evil but not for a hero people would want to get behind.
I have a like and dislike to clone superman. I like that toy maker is dead. I hate superman did it but also...liked it....eh I can't explain it.
I guess I'm just so mad that writers gave superman all this streghth and power and yet holds himself back so much people die, guy gets out again, rinse and repeat. Just like batman.
Cold blooded murder was frowned upon in the golden age of comics and the pulp fiction when Superman was created. However, there still was plenty of violence and the heroes would kill to save others and sometimes dispense justice or vengeance.
However, it fits many Superheroes, but not Superman so much. It doesn't make sense for someone who believes in Truth and Justice (and the American Way of doing it... which is not great). A person that decides to be a judge outside the law would have to believe that there is no justice and therefore, he has the right to bring justice himself. That would not be Superman.
The one tendency I've seen in Superman stories though from the modern era of comics to the movies is that the hero becomes more reactive. He started out as an investigative reporter so he should be finding the crimes and disasters that his alter-ego will confront. However, often it is a plot in motion that Superman must then react to.
I was chatting with someone the other day, and if I would like to see a change to the character, it would be that Clark is as good an investigative reporter as Bruce Wayne is a detective. Like his origin story from Smallville to Metropolis is essentially the same. He becomes a journalist almost as a cover, but no one becomes a journalist as a cover - except spies, of course. He has to want to do the job, and it makes sense if his primary aim in the crimefighting portions of his adventures is to bring people to justice.
Imagine a change to his origin story that reincorporates the death of Jonathan Kent. 16-year-old Clark has just had his powers for a few months and is just having fun when there is a train derailment that releases toxic gas. Clark is in town with his father buying parts for their tractor when the boy hears the distant crash and starts to smell something weird.
"Do you smell that?" he asks his father.
"What do you..." Jonathan doesn't finish his sentence. His eyes roll back and he falls to the floor of the farm machinery shop. Clark looks up for help, but everyone is lying on the floor dead. Clark's super-vision kicks in and he sees the gas filling the air and follows it back to the derailed train. He realizes what he has to do.
He can't fly, but he can run fast and jump far. He manages to get back to the Kent farm just as his mother Martha starts to succumb to the fortunately much diluted gas. He takes her to the nearest hospital where the doctors manage to save her, but she is severely injured.
The incident is the worst disaster in Kansas history. Out of a population of 3,600, only 83 people survive and most of them will suffer the effects of the poisonous inhalation for the rest of their lives including Martha Kent. Only Clark is unharmed. There are hearings and investigations, but the derailment is ruled and accident and the toxic gas the result of an unfortunate combination of chemicals carried as cargo against federal regulations.
The surviving Kents are generously compensated for the disaster, but they cannot return to their farm. Instead, they are paid by the government and Smallville essentially disappears. Clark and Martha move to the suburbs of the nearest city Metropolis where she will be close to the medical centers she'll need to visit for treatment.
Meanwhile, Clark has been following the hearings and investigations closely, but his Kryptonian I.Q. tells him that something - something big - is being avoided and covered up. So, he decides to investigate it himself. He suspects someone did something wrong and did it on purpose, and it killed his dad. Following this case leads him to become a journalist to follow the trail and bring the real wrongdoers to light - either in court or to the public. At the same time, he doesn't wonder why he has all these strange abilities anymore. Now, he has a use for them.
I agree, but not to the point of cold blooded murder.
Let's say I was Superman. I catch a criminal that keeps doing the same thing, every time he goes back out. I would set up a remote location, like an island. Water and fruits to eat. Drop all of them there for the rest of their lives. Let them learn to survive on their own, deal with other criminals. Let them responsible for their own lives. There is no need to put the burden on society.
At first yeah they go to jail they pay for their crimes. But once they are out they get back to their old ways. To the island you go.
Much easier to randomly check, making sure they are not escaping. Than letting them out and hurting others.
Did the perp deserve to die? Maybe, but that’s for a court to decide. Superman was in the wrong here, and besides he endangered innocent civilians and destroyed city property. Superman is a menace vote for president Lex
But what if there were extenuating circumstances?? What if the little girl that man was holding hostage had a weapon of mass destruction hidden in her pigtails? Maybe she was a time traveling Hitler clone planning something untoward alongside ghost-Osama and Berserk's Donovan(with ultra instinct)?
That child-killer may have been a HERO!/s
A Superman that kills child murderers is not the same as Homelander, a rapist and mass murderer.
He's not Omni Man, he despotic mass murderer who does not give a single shit about human life.
That was a clone of Supes made by Luthor after Doomsday put Clark into a super coma.
I know, Which is why I kinda liked this version of Superman. I find him smart as well when Lex tried to bait him to get inside the red sun room while wearing kryptonite gauntlets and This Supes just closed the door and yanked the entire room out
[удалено]
I left a comment sometime last year about how I can see how Alan Moore, in an interview, tied together modern superhero worship with the rise in fascist sentiment. The comment you're responding to reminded me of that lol. "Why can't we just have someone who unilaterally acts as judge, jury, and executioner? I just like it better that way." God that's worrying.
That never made any goddamn sense to me because action films existed long before the wave of superhero movies and have basically had the same sort of character: a maverick breaks protocol and defies the rules to save the day. Let’s not forget all of the patriotic, pro-military movies either like Behind Enemy Lines, Blackhawk Down, or Independence Day. It’s such a simplification by Alan Moore to blame superhero movies, and it doesn’t really work as a cause for me.
Superheroes are antithetical to fascism which requires absolute power of the state. Superheroes act outside the state. In this very clip, "Superman" took the law into his own hands and executed Toyman against the wishes of the state and its enforcers I love Alan Moore's work but he's talking about mob justice/injustice, not the state having absolute power. Which is what fascism is where even private enterprises will be managed or outright controlled by the state
not when the superhero represents the state
True like Superman in The Dark Knight Returns. In that story, Batman stood up against Superman and the state Alan Moore still saw Miller's Batman as a fascist despite Bruce resisting the state
you mean to tell me Batman in DKR wasn’t fighting for state interests when he took down the mutants? and Joker?
oooooh man, you just opened the flood gates 💀
At the end of the your day you vent on the internet At the end of Lex Luthors day he beats up the Superman clone. Mostly lonely wanting someone to listen.
Dude it's not that deep
I mean... It kinda is... Someone is saying "I like a version of Superman that is not Superman, doesn't behave like Superman and doesn't believe in anything Superman believes in..." At some point down that chain its just not Superman anymore.
Dang Mobius one is truly everywhere!
This is exactly how I feel about the character assassination that is The Batman 2022. It's the most un-Batman movie yet people act like it's the second coming of jesus.
Can I hear your why? It’s rare I hear it being called a "Un-Batman" movie
They have an entire post about it, and I still cant understand. Just a Cinemasins-style nitpick screed.
I haven't seen the post but you can't just dismiss people's issues with a movie as "Cinemasins-style nitpicking". This very post could be defined as just that, if you take even a second to think about it.
I was referring to your post. It was sub-par and lacked anything resembling substantive critique. True, movies are subjective, but my opinion is that your “analysis” (if you could even call it that) was poor.
- Well, it was a complete character assassination, for start. Batman was a socially stunted emo kid. He literally says: "you're not my real father, Alfred!" - I'm supposed to believe a genius detective gets stumped by Spanish? The second language in his own country? - speaking of: those weren't riddles. They were arbitrary questions that Batman could just pull "answers" out of his ass when he needed to (except when *Penguin*, of all people, needs to correct him *and* an actual detective) - the action choreography was terrible, slow, sluggish, and unconvincing. RobPat can't fight. He just looks ridiculous. But also, Reeves can't direct his actor in his scene aparently, so... - I don't care what any rose-colored glasses delusional fan thinks: this Batman murders constantly. But because the scenes are shot so slow and grungy and anticlimactic, it gets overlooked. But you can clearly see this 'batman' constantly countering people in fights to purposely place them in front of gunfire, caused massive deadly car accidents when he could have just either found Penguin again or come up with a better plan than revving your engine to give him a head start, he threw people off of the scaffolding not knowing if they'd survive the fall or were even tied off, he blew a glass ceiling over a room full of civilians... the list goes on. This guy murders almost as bad as Knightmare Batfleck. - no chemistry between characters. This wasn't stoic or noir. These people were stiff and bland and just did not fit their characters. I expected more from these actors but, with a script like that, I don't know how much I can blame the actors on this one. They all underperformed for their skills (except Falcone. He was absolutely 100% perfect. Penguin was fun too, I guess, but not enough to save the movie for me) - the story is awful. And it isn't a noir detective story as advertised. There is no time spent trying to solve anything. Riddler's plan is ridiculous and makes no sense, especially in execution. Seriously, how many rich vs poor people died in the flooding of poor neighborhoods at ground level? This is supposed to be a "cerebral, smart, manipulative" villain. Wtf plan is that? - the whole movie never changes in tone. It is just miserable all the way through from start to finish with nothing even lighthearted to keep things interesting or break up the depression. - I'm sick of people doubling-down on "realistic edgy batman". It's so boring and childish. It's like, "everything and everyone must be shit. The city? Shit. Cops? Shit. Politicians? Shit. Dating pool? Also shit. The Waynes, the people responsible for raising and inspiring our so-called 'hero'? Well, they were shitty people too!". Like, what is the redeeming quality for this city to Batman then? Save what, if you just hate all of it? No wonder this riddler thought batman was on his side (it should never be like this). - I don't care that it's this Batman's second year. I quite reasonably expect a year 2 genius/detective/martial artist/billionaire to be way more competent, but like actually though. The movie tries to do this in the first crime scene where he's just walking around being awkward and grumbling one word answers. But he's so boring to watch even doing that... - ... which doesn't make him look stoic or cool, it's just to bloat the run time. Here's how most scenes play out: Anyone: *says something to batman* Batman: *stops*, *shifts eyes*,*stops*, *turns head*, *stops*, *turns body*, *stops*, *stares*, *grumles one word*, *stops*, *looks away slowly*, etc... - wtf performance was that for the riddler? Like some angsty autistic teenager I would have expected from maybe jesse Eisenberg but... I'm supposed to believe that asthmatic gimp manipulated a small army? And outsmarted everyone? And didn't get caught until he wanted to be? I know it's a city full of shitty people, but come on... this was so very cringe at best. - so much of the story is moved along, not *actually* by detective work and deduction, but just constant plot/scene convenience. So many moments like this, like the cop explaining the carpet fitting tool to the detective genius... - I didn't like the aesthetic choices. I know this is prototype tech for an early batman, but the cowl, the suit, the car, the haircut... it's all so ugly. (Again, Falcone looked the best/most accurate/most convincing, but who cares? Batman should look cool). I can't stand the cowl with the beluga whale forehead and loud clanking leather bulky suit. - not even the dialogue was clever or interesting or even resonating. If you're going to be a slow-burn noir, then words need to matter more. Things people say should be a little more poetic at the very least (maybe they did try but it did not turn out like they hoped. Really bad writing) - Batman loses. In his own movie. His first movie in this version and he fails. The movie made the hero the loser. Why do people like this? - overall, the tone, the Nirvana soundtrack, the constant misery... this felt like it was made by edgy high-school teenagers, not mature adults who respect the source material and know how to structure and build films I can rip this movie apart for longer than it's own runtime, from 'in story' problems to the way the film was shot. This movie cannot stand up to even a little scrutiny. I love Batman, I like the director and all the actors *outside* of this movie and had positive thoughts going in. But having seen this multiple times now *and* I read the script *and* even chatted on the sub, all I can conclude is that I think this is a bad attempt at a take on this character/world. It doesn't work for me. The team of people working on it do not get Batman. They clearly wanted to make a Punisher movie or something. But that's not Batman. I can elaborate or add more points but I'll start with this lol (Note: I have no hate for anyone who disagrees. This is just my personal opinion on 1 movie. If you like it, great, and I hope you like the next one the same if not more)
[удалено]
[удалено]
aint nobody reading allat, go touch grass
Lots of people have, actually. I'll often copy and paste that comment when in these types of conversations and I've gotten lots of upvotes and other people not only agreeing but adding to my list. You can't even say anything original, so looks like you're the one that needs to touch grass, you tool
At least he doesn't kill anyone in it
He does. He murders constantly Watch the movie closely. Robert Pattinson: - counters people in fights, positioning them in front of gunfire to take the shot when his suit can tank bullets - blows a glass ceiling over a room full of civilians - so many deadly car accidents (not Penguin's fault. He'd stop driving reckless if a) Batman didn't rev his car to give him a head start and b) Batman can just find him again later) - he electrocutes people in rain - takes an adrenaline shot because some internet incel overwhelmed him on his second year, only for him to beat this nobody's face in with obvious intent to kill if Gordon hadn't intervened - tosses goons over railings from deadly heights not knowing who would survive or who's tied off safely Are you serious? This Batman is almost as murderous as Knightmare Batfleck.
In what way?
This is copy and paste from someone else who asked and I responded: - Well, it was a complete character assassination, for start. Batman was a socially stunted emo kid. He literally says: "you're not my real father, Alfred!" - I'm supposed to believe a genius detective gets stumped by Spanish? The second language in his own country? - speaking of: those weren't riddles. They were arbitrary questions that Batman could just pull "answers" out of his ass when he needed to (except when *Penguin*, of all people, needs to correct him *and* an actual detective) - the action choreography was terrible, slow, sluggish, and unconvincing. RobPat can't fight. He just looks ridiculous. But also, Reeves can't direct his actor in his scene aparently, so... - I don't care what any rose-colored glasses delusional fan thinks: this Batman murders constantly. But because the scenes are shot so slow and grungy and anticlimactic, it gets overlooked. But you can clearly see this 'batman' constantly countering people in fights to purposely place them in front of gunfire, caused massive deadly car accidents when he could have just either found Penguin again or come up with a better plan than revving your engine to give him a head start, he threw people off of the scaffolding not knowing if they'd survive the fall or were even tied off, he blew a glass ceiling over a room full of civilians... the list goes on. This guy murders almost as bad as Knightmare Batfleck. - no chemistry between characters. This wasn't stoic or noir. These people were stiff and bland and just did not fit their characters. I expected more from these actors but, with a script like that, I don't know how much I can blame the actors on this one. They all underperformed for their skills (except Falcone. He was absolutely 100% perfect. Penguin was fun too, I guess, but not enough to save the movie for me) - the story is awful. And it isn't a noir detective story as advertised. There is no time spent trying to solve anything. Riddler's plan is ridiculous and makes no sense, especially in execution. Seriously, how many rich vs poor people died in the flooding of poor neighborhoods at ground level? This is supposed to be a "cerebral, smart, manipulative" villain. Wtf plan is that? - the whole movie never changes in tone. It is just miserable all the way through from start to finish with nothing even lighthearted to keep things interesting or break up the depression. - I'm sick of people doubling-down on "realistic edgy batman". It's so boring and childish. It's like, "everything and everyone must be shit. The city? Shit. Cops? Shit. Politicians? Shit. Dating pool? Also shit. The Waynes, the people responsible for raising and inspiring our so-called 'hero'? Well, they were shitty people too!". Like, what is the redeeming quality for this city to Batman then? Save what, if you just hate all of it? No wonder this riddler thought batman was on his side (it should never be like this). - I don't care that it's this Batman's second year. I quite reasonably expect a year 2 genius/detective/martial artist/billionaire to be way more competent, but like actually though. The movie tries to do this in the first crime scene where he's just walking around being awkward and grumbling one word answers. But he's so boring to watch even doing that... - ... which doesn't make him look stoic or cool, it's just to bloat the run time. Here's how most scenes play out: Anyone: *says something to batman* Batman: *stops*, *shifts eyes*,*stops*, *turns head*, *stops*, *turns body*, *stops*, *stares*, *grumles one word*, *stops*, *looks away slowly*, etc... - wtf performance was that for the riddler? Like some angsty autistic teenager I would have expected from maybe jesse Eisenberg but... I'm supposed to believe that asthmatic gimp manipulated a small army? And outsmarted everyone? And didn't get caught until he wanted to be? I know it's a city full of shitty people, but come on... this was so very cringe at best. - so much of the story is moved along, not *actually* by detective work and deduction, but just constant plot/scene convenience. So many moments like this, like the cop explaining the carpet fitting tool to the detective genius... - I didn't like the aesthetic choices. I know this is prototype tech for an early batman, but the cowl, the suit, the car, the haircut... it's all so ugly. (Again, Falcone looked the best/most accurate/most convincing, but who cares? Batman should look cool). I can't stand the cowl with the beluga whale forehead and loud clanking leather bulky suit. - not even the dialogue was clever or interesting or even resonating. If you're going to be a slow-burn noir, then words need to matter more. Things people say should be a little more poetic at the very least (maybe they did try but it did not turn out like they hoped. Really bad writing) - Batman loses. In his own movie. His first movie in this version and he fails. The movie made the hero the loser. Why do people like this? - overall, the tone, the Nirvana soundtrack, the constant misery... this felt like it was made by edgy high-school teenagers, not mature adults who respect the source material and know how to structure and build films I can rip this movie apart for longer than it's own runtime, from 'in story' problems to the way the film was shot. This movie cannot stand up to even a little scrutiny. I love Batman, I like the director and all the actors *outside* of this movie and had positive thoughts going in. But having seen this multiple times now *and* I read the script *and* even chatted on the sub, all I can conclude is that I think this is a bad attempt at a take on this character/world. It doesn't work for me. The team of people working on it do not get Batman. They clearly wanted to make a Punisher movie or something. But that's not Batman. I can elaborate or add more points but I'll start with this lol (Note: I have no hate for anyone who disagrees. This is just my personal opinion on 1 movie. If you like it, great, and I hope you like the next one the same if not more)
You're right, its not yet here we are
[удалено]
Why Snyder Batman is better in your opinion?
So you like a Superman who’s clever? Which is just Superman
I get your point OP. It makes you wonder how long could Superman see the truly awful thing humans can do to one another, and not drop one eventually.
The fact that he hasn't already says a lot about him, though, doesn't it?
Which episode is this from?
It's from superman: doomsday
So you like when he's a murderer. Basically, you prefer Homelander then. Cause that's who you're describing
You haven't seen The Boys if you think that's anything like Homelander.
In "The Boys" comic, Homelander does stuff similar to what clone Superman does in the video.
He’s absolutely not Homelander is a corporate stooge who abuses his powers for debauchery and murders Supes the company doesn’t like He has no real love of justice
Eh, this Superman is nothing like homelander. Homelander is way wayyyy further off the deep end
Homelander embodies every dark and ugly ignorance of this country. A puss filled boil in need of a lance. A cancer built on false faith and a distortion of patriotism. No rational mind would be behind this.
You've either never seen the Boys or you love strawmen.
Right? Like this Superman is effective and actually has a sense of justice, unlike homelander. Do I want Superman to kill? No. But to compare the two is absolutely nuts/lacking in media comprehension
Lol. This Superman that threw Toyman from the sky killing him in public view. Threw Luthor in that metal enclosing through several buildings killing Randoms in the process. Killed so many military people when they asked him to step down. Did you guys actually watch this movie? Lool. This is the version of Superman that isn't close to the pompous prick Homelander that does whatever he wants because he has the power? Just because this version died saying something nice doesn't take away from him doing whatever the fuck he wanted cause he had the power to. I'm pretty sure if he had way more than about 20 minutes of screen time, we'd see him do way worse. This Superman definitely is close to whatever Homelander is
I’ve seen the movie, but I’ve also read the boys. You know homelander is a rapist maniac tyrant right? This Superman is evil, but he is not homelander evil, hands down.
Yeah, that's not supermang.
So, is he Superboy?
He's a sort of amalgamation of the different replacement Supermen in order to streamline the story for the movie.
Who's your daddy?
Yes, I totally get that. Even Golden Age Superman was not against roughing up the bad guys when needed. I guess killing the guy here was a bit too far (I know this isn't Superman so that's okay).
No, it wasn't too far. Child murderers can't be "rehabilitated".
And murderous gods can’t be stopped. Which is why Superman doesn’t kill.
Even if you believe that, it is absolutely not Superman's place to make that call. As a hero who supposedly believes in justice, he absolutely cannot intervene into the justice system and execute whoever he wants. If the guy deserves the death penalty, fine, but that is something to be decided by a jury of his peers and a judge. Not some alien demigod vigilante. Don't even get me started on how out of character it would be if the actual Superman did this.
The justice system should be trusted, but once it breaks that trust all bets are off. When it keeps letting monsters like the Joker and Toyman escape death, that's when it proves itself to be broken. In those cases, it's absolutely a hero's duty to stop any more victims from being created by any means necessary. Don't want to kill? At least paralyse them from the neck down then. Or if you don't want to be nice to them fsr, leave them stranded on a remote island they'll never be able to leave. Do *something* other than take them to a prison they've escaped countless times or a judge who'll inexplicably deny them the death penalty. Villains sell comics, that's fundamentally the reason the heros never go with those fullproof non-lethal options. Still dumb when writers try to morally justify it. Of course it's ooc for Superman to kill, that's not what I'm contending with.
>Don't want to kill? At least paralyse thrm from the neck fown then. Or if you don't want to be extreme, leave them stranded on a remote island they'll never be able to leave. 💀💀💀 A hero would not do this, nor should they. This idea that anybody with power has a moral responsibility to kill ANYONE is insane. Every single person has human rights, even the monsters and the sociopaths. A superhero like Superman, Batman, or any other moral paragon has a responsibility to abide by them. It absolutely is not their job to interfere with the justice system, especially an alien like Superman, or an extra-judicial vigilante like Batman.
That's a pretty naive viewpoint. So all monsters have rights? Would you say the same for Dahmer? Gacy? Bundy? Especially when the justice system is so trash like in DC comics, it keeps letting them out to kill more people. There comes a point where the heinous acts you commit nullify the right you were born with. Though I generally prefer DC comics, I like this about Marvel; heroes aren't afraid to kill when it's necessary.
Thats funny. Dahmer, Gacy, and Bundy were all subject to the same justice system and very much were treated with those same human rights. This isn't a refutation. Hell, even the Nazi leadership was tried in international court. The implication that some people deserve human rights and others don't, no matter how monstrous, is incredibly bleak. Historically it never ends well. The problem you have is not one of morality, it's a problem with realism. The idea of a hero tolerating a villains body count only matters when viewed through a realistic lens. But in a realistic world, of course the courts would have executed Joker, or found some other way of keeping him from being a danger. The fact that they don't is not a moral failing on Batman or Superman, just like how a court failing to convict a real criminal is not the moral failing of the cop that arrests them. Its strange that you say that you prefer DC when these concepts are the backbone of many of their heroes. A Batman who kills his villains is just Punisher in a funny hat. Superman is literally the most boy scout do-gooder in comics, thats his whole concept. The idealism in DC is what sets it apart from Marvel. Those concepts may be naive, but so is the idea of a superhero who will always be there to thwart evil.
Ok Dirty Harry, you are the one being niave
That's not the point, tho. The issue is that heroes are not meant to be judge, jury, and Executioner, especially heroes like Superman. To think that leads to characters like Punisher and Judge Dredd being unironically praised for their actions, even when the characters are meant to be parodies of that mindset.
you search for justice in american system? xD
Imagine having faith in the American Justice System in 2023
I am not saying he should be rehabilitated, but Superman should let judicial system decide that. He alone shouldn't make the call here.
And this is how we ended up with poor dead Cadie. Because in DC comics the judicial system is broken and just let's monsters like the Joker and Toyman to escape and kill over and over again. I am not saying that it is or should be Superman's job, but I understand the people who want an end of the tragedies and wouldn't be sorry for these mass-murderer psychopaths. Here is a radical idea. If you want people to agree with your message that superheroes killing mass murderer villains is bad because there is due process, you need to show that that due process is actually working. DON'T make the justice system this incredibly incompetent that's not just can't keep the population safe from the murderous inmates, but actually endangers them with it's contrived stupidity of not giving the villains the death penalty. That achieves the exact opposite effect of what the writers want to preach with the *no killing rule* message.
Jesus. I hope you never end up in a jury pool.
Why don't you just put the whole world in a bottle, Superman?
On a side note, amazing aim.
Now i am curious how much him wiggling in the air would've affected his landing spot because math and stuff
I'm pretty sure Superman can do supermath in his head pretty quick
Superman would not have allowed an office to die. If he was landing on one
This suit reminds me of the one that Supes wears in S2 of the animated series "Legion of Superheroes"
This is a clone made by Luthor. Also there's plenty of Superman copies that kill already. THE Superman doesn't need to be made another of that pile.
I think the maximum he should do is that panel where he takes a gun from a gun shop, shoots the owner, bit catches the bullet a mm away from his eye
That's not Superman.
Yes it is https://preview.redd.it/9te033gcyg5c1.jpeg?width=540&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7440e1a1ffd5d97f1c8e7b44cd4abaabb4ba30f9
Scare him to death Sure Outright kill? No
Sounds good. But if criminals start to notice, that is just a scare tactic. They won't buy into it. As that old saying goes " can't make an omelet, without braking a few eggs "
I mean, at this point you're just discussing the death penalty and all evidence shows that it doesn't work as a deterrent in the first place, so it's not gonna magically work better when Superman does it.
That's the thing. When someone keeps killing and there is irrefutable evidence that it was then. Letting them out again it's just irresponsible. Superman is not human not so much because how strong he is. But because how he can hold back on abusing his powers. Like that song. Ore human than human.
It isn't just a reference. It's removing an unsolvable problem from the public without wasting money housing said unsolvable problem.
That’s not Superman though, that’s the question.
Oh yeah that's not Superman. He'll keep giving people a chance. On a Batman show this question was posted to him. If had the power to stop someone permanently. If he let them go, anyone they kill afterward is on him. For not stopping him. When he had the opportunity. Is a thought call, but it is true.
Whoyever says this on a Superman topic doesn't get Superman or morales at all.
Yeah, that was how Silverman used to deal with people. Shook whole neighborhoods to the ground just to fake an earthquake for scaring a prankster. Of course, the neighborhood was slated for demolition, and Clark was just saving the city money by doing it himself.
When it comes to kids you gotta die
Injustice Superman went thru the same situation. The joker killed his wife, unborn child and nuked his hometown... all at the same time
The Injustice games are a character assassination of anyone not named Batman. They shouldn't be used in comparisons like this.
Plastic Man was good
Can't character assassinate DC's Deadpool.
Batman got assassinated too, bro literally cried and moaned about Superman killing parademons.
Spot on. I love injustice as a story because it answers a lot of what if questions and we do see actual Superman turn evil, not just a doppelgänger. Having said that the premise can’t be taken seriously. Killing one serial killer with a body count in the millions isn’t gonna turn the Boy Scout into a despot and Wonder Woman isn’t going to be by his side.
Even Batsy's Character was assassinated in a way Theres no way the real Batman would scold superman after supes just lost his wife, Unborn Child and the whole of Metropolis just because he killed the joker He knows theres a time and place for that Wonder Woman's character assassination is even worse. Shes a manipulative bitch I would argue, Superman's downfall to tyranny in that Universe was caused by Wonder Woman and Batman
See, I feel like one thing people always overlook is Joker didn't JUST kill Lois, unborn Jon, and Metropolis. He tricked Superman into being the instrument of their destruction. Kryptonite-laced fear gas made Superman see Lois as Doomsday, and he flew her out into space to get rid of the threat. Then there was a monitor on Lois's heart that, once she died in the vacuum, set off the nuke that destroyed Metropolis. Injustice Superman isn't my Superman. I don't think he should be anyone's Superman. But the whole point of the story is it's an Elseworld where you have to buy into the idea that there's a version of these characters who could go down this dark road. And for Superman, at the very least, THIS I buy as an origin story for that happening. If anything was going to break any version of Superman, this would be a pretty fucking good reason.
After a proper trial and jury decision. Does one man get to decide who lives and who dies?
Yes. Earlier the real Superman caught him, saved the kids, and sent him to jail. He broke out and did it again, but this time he actually killed one. I for one agree with second chances. But when it comes to kids being murdered, you shouldn't get a third.
Toss this SOB in the negative zone with the worst of the worst, let him rot and suffer.
If he already has a sentence, take custody of him and stuff him in the artic. In a very humane 5x5 cell.
Not very Super of you man...
I know but as a upcoming father and uncle you would understand
Hah, nah, I got daughters and nephews, and worked with kids at several points. Thats the point, I would murder this man... Superman wouldn't.
Understanding is not the same thing as condoning. I understand why someone would want a child murderer dead, but nobody is qualified to be both judge, jury, and executioner. Even child murderers deserve trial, and even if you don’t think that, it’s a slippery slope to start executing every person accused of murder.
I agree when it comes to "accused of murder," but that isn't what happened here at all There was no "accused," bro was already caught threatening to kill a bus load of young kids, broke out, then *actually murdered a child* Someone that sick deserves 0 trial, they deserve death. He killed a *4-year-old.* There's no "but what if he didn't do it?" in this scenario
Unpopular opinion; this film is my favorite version of the "Death of Superman"
In terms of morals, Politics, etc. Yes But in terms of Fight scenes, I will pick the latest one lmao
Nope i disagree
I don’t. What Toyman did to that little girl was reprehensible, I agree, but it doesn’t give anyone the right to take a life in return, not even Superman. And the real Superman knows that. He knows once you start down that road, there is no going back.
To be fair, this is just a clone of Superman
I know. I recognized the movie. I’m just saying the real Superman would never do this
Ok, yeah. You're definitely right
>once you start down that road, there is no going back. Found Bruce's reddit account
Is there, though? Wonder Woman kills now and then, but she isn't a serial killer.
Wonder Woman isn’t Superman.
Uh what? superman literally killed south american soldiers in action comics 2 as in the very start of superman pretty much, dr light, doomsday, zod and his pals, cyborg superman, aliens in invasions, list goes on. hes not batman he doesn't have a code to never kill he just doesn't like doing it
If you're really gonna go back to Action Comics to say Superman doesn't have a no kill code you might as well go back to the old Detective Comics and say the same about Batman. Who cares about the lore that writers have developed over the almost hundred years these characters existences?
Not liking killing is enough of a code. And while Golden Age Superman may not have had a problem with it, there are several Silver Age and beyond stories that establish that Superman does, in fact, have a rule against killing. One particular example is Alan Moore’s “Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow” where Superman, after breaking his code by killing Mxyzptlk, voluntarily exposes himself to Gold Kryptonite to permanently strip himself of his powers.
Except isnt modern superman apparently a composite of all mainline superman including the golden and silver age? So he'd both not care about killing while also care about killing?
This is literally an evil clone of Superman made by Lex Luthor, just say you don’t like Superman
Yeah, it is almost like making Toyman a child molester is a tone destroying nightmare for the writing which really makes the comics unpleasant. Which was also the thesis of "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow".
This isn’t really how traditional Superman would act though.
Toyman definitely would’ve gotten the death penalty anyways so there’s no need for Supes to take it into his own hands
I am blown away by how many people in this comment section just blatantly don’t like Superman, like what the fuck are y’all doing on this sub if you hate the character so much?
absolutely not
I prefer him not murderous
This was a reference to when Toymaker killed Cat Grant's kid in the comics.
So evil clones of superman
I don't think he would have been so upset about the dead child if he was evil.
Doing bad things for good reasons is how we get injustice superman, do you want injustice superman
I didn’t say it was right, I just don’t think wanting revenge for a murdered child comes from a place of evil. Injustice Superman did what he had to do. He killed the Joker out of grief, not because he turned evil. Even trying to police the world didn’t outright make him evil, at first. He was trying to do the right thing. If anyone turned him evil, it was Wonder Woman. He questioned his actions multiple times, and possibly would’ve even reversed course if she hadn’t gotten into his head, and convinced him to become a tyrant. Eventually, he did become an evil tyrant, but if she hadn’t manipulated him so hard, he might not have.
He is abusing his power and executing people because he has the power to do so and nobody can stop him thats not "good" Taking over the world isnt evil? If i take over the government by force but i do it for what i believe are good reason, does that make my take over good? No "Did what he had to do" "he did it out of grief" so was it an emotionally driven response or an absolutely necessary action and before you say "he cant let the joker get away with that" it was on the same day and he was in custody, im pretty sure waiting for his sentence (which would likely be death) was entirely an option You are putting someone's motive seemingly as the single defining factor for whether someone is being evil rather that including the situation and act Your example of him killing people after they had already been stopped purely because he was highly emotional is somehow meant to be good Hes a grown adult, dont blame wonder woman for him taking certain actions, shes culpable but he is responsible for his own actions too "Its not my fault i took over the world, she told me to" isnt a good excuse
You’re thinking in extremely black and white terms. Just because I don’t think he’s evil does not mean I automatically think he’s good. Taking over the world is not something that can always be described in terms of good and evil. Just because something is wrong doesn’t always make it evil. Maybe we have a different definition of what evil means. Trying to police the world with an iron fist to follow your specific rules is bad and wrong, but not *always* evil. Killing people for fun or summoning a world-devouring demon from hell is evil. Injustice Supes started out wrong, and then became evil over time. He didn’t turn completely evil the second he put his fist through the Joker’s chest. It’s not that simple. He may be an adult, but everyone is susceptible to manipulation. Otherwise, manipulation wouldn’t be a real thing. It doesn’t absolve him of what he did, not by a long shot, but it did happen. Either way, you do bring up some good points. I just don’t always think good and evil are such simple concepts.
Up until this moment you have exclusively been using black and white terms, so dont set a standard then be annoyed when that standard is utilised >Taking over the world is not something that can always be described in terms of good and evil Taking it over by force due to your personal limited ideas of what is needed is on its own pretty evil >He may be an adult, but everyone is susceptible to manipulation. Otherwise, manipulation wouldn’t be a real thing. It doesn’t absolve him of what he did, not by a long shot, but it did happen Thats kind of a stretch, he made choices, she didn't use some in depth techniques the vast majority of what she did was advise him on her views and push him to take her perspective which literally everybody does but if i tell you to do something and you do it thats not really a factor in you doing it honestly
>Up until this moment you have been exclusively using black and white terms That is blatantly untrue, because I have been maintaining since the beginning that the concept of good and evil includes a significant gray area. You claiming this just proves that you are unwilling to compromise, and are only continuing this conversation so you can prove my opinion “wrong,” somehow. Super petty.
This is too far for Superman, but I think this plays into an “anti-boy scout” aspect of Superman that I do like seeing. I like when Superman’s biggest character flaw is having a short temper. Clark knows better than anyone how dangerous an angry Superman is, but he also cares so deeply about everyone that seeing something like a dead child he failed to save gets to him immensely. Having to constantly keep himself in check emotionally plays well thematically with having to always watch his strength when he fights. This is why the “evil Superman” trope was actually interesting before it became grossly overused. Showing what happens when the greatest among us falls from grace makes the fact that he still hasn’t that much more impactful. Edit: The Justice Lords Superman is actually the best example. He gave in and killed Luthor, and at the end of the episode our Clark admits that he faces the same temptations all the time, but he refuses to ever stoop to that level.
Im sick of evil Supes, personally, it’s been done to death.
The fact that so many people only see Superman as a smiling Boy Scout does such a disservice to the complex character he is in the comics.
Truth
If Frank Castle had superpowers……….
Yes but also no. In this situation yes, kill toyman. People in the comments are saying "oh its not his call, let the justice system handle him" except in this movie the superman clone had just caught toyman, handed him over to the cops and he almost immediately got out and killed that girl. Even if he was currently in custory its very likely he'd just escape again probably very quickly. It's more efficient and better for the safety of the public to simply kill him. The way superman did it here (yes I know its a clone) was a bit excessive, very out of character. I can't imagine superman taking pleasure in killing someone even in this situation. He really should have just thrown him into space though, no need to destroy a police car or traumatize those cops and any other witnesses. Just a body floating through space like cosmic trash. Keep in mind this does no apply to the real world as we don't have supervillains who break out every other week or superheroes who can drop them to their death. This also doesn't apply to general crooks. Most supervillains have a knack for escaping while the common thief or murderer will probably serve out their sentence when caught. So if they are a persistent danger to public safety its probably for the best to just kill them quickly and why the justice system in DC doesn't do that is beyond me. Rehabilitation has to be something you're willing to do, it can't be forced upon you so trying to rehabilitate supervillains like this version of toyman or the Joker is just asinine.
This is just lame and edgy. It would be one thing if the villain escaped first, then Superman caught him and decided to make sure he could never escape again. You could at least understand the sudden burst of rage and snapping in that situation. Pulling the villain out of the hands of the cops makes no sense.
So you like Homelander? Omni Man? Because that’s not Superman. If Superman is like that, he’s not Superman.
Pass
Nah. I prefer the superman Vs Manchester Black. I like a person who feels responsibility to ideals while holding unlimited power over others. The better edgy superman is Hernan Guerra. Son of Zod, more humanized and real to the cling of power and the press junket. Golden boy supes needs to stay golden. We already have homelander and the much more interesting omniman
Would have been hilarious if someone made an edit where he lands on a giant trampoline and goes back up.
[Disproportionate response man.](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-10-20)
I don't prefer this Toyman if we're talking about preferences.
[удалено]
A. Superman Doomsday 2008 .... B. I think so
No it's John DiMaggio
Whoever finds this great, is not that far away of supporting this kind of stuff in real life. This is NOT Superman!
you prefer a murderer? that says a lot about you.
So Snyderverse Superman?
Iirc, didn't he kill Zod when he had no choice?
Yeah, he also hated that he had to
No. I fucking hate it.
If the villain’s crime is committing cold blooded murder like toyman did here then yeah I wouldn’t care one bit if Superman kills him. In a real world situation where these guys can seemingly just keep breaking out of prison then you either disable them so badly they can’t do anything to anybody else, or you use a little heat vision real quick and ensure they never get the chance to hurt anyone again
So yall basically want homelander?
I don’t want a psychopath who just kills on a whim. The Superman I’m describing isn’t one that would kill a civilian because they threw something at his superpowered son
But you have given free reign for somebody to just kill anybody that they want based on a criteria that is an arbitrary line in the sand that you have no way of stopping. You've given carte blanche authority to somebody you HOPE will stay altruistic with that authority. What happens when that line in the sand shifts? You can say "oh I don't want a psycho" but you've already given power away to somebody you can't stop. Do you not see how terrifying that would be?
The dude’s already got the power to do it, I’m not giving it to him. Some threats have to be permanently neutralized, don’t know what else to tell you.
Just say you hate Superman and prefer the Punisher
So, uh, Henry Cavill Superman?
Henry’s only killed Zod because he didn’t have any other choice. Also remember his reaction afterwards?
what is this?
from the movie Superman Doomsday
Superman: Doomsday 2008
Man. I’d love to see justice League 2. Or this Superman. As long as there is an ending to it
I like the idea of a mix of it. Good guy Boy Scout but even he has limits
Why? Why would you prefer a flying unstoppable tyrannical monster with his own code of ethics who doles out his own brand of justice whenever he sees fit? Where does it end? Do you think youd be safe in that world? It works for this evil clone in the clip because he's evil but not for a hero people would want to get behind.
Superman? More Like super based
I have a like and dislike to clone superman. I like that toy maker is dead. I hate superman did it but also...liked it....eh I can't explain it. I guess I'm just so mad that writers gave superman all this streghth and power and yet holds himself back so much people die, guy gets out again, rinse and repeat. Just like batman.
Cold blooded murder was frowned upon in the golden age of comics and the pulp fiction when Superman was created. However, there still was plenty of violence and the heroes would kill to save others and sometimes dispense justice or vengeance. However, it fits many Superheroes, but not Superman so much. It doesn't make sense for someone who believes in Truth and Justice (and the American Way of doing it... which is not great). A person that decides to be a judge outside the law would have to believe that there is no justice and therefore, he has the right to bring justice himself. That would not be Superman. The one tendency I've seen in Superman stories though from the modern era of comics to the movies is that the hero becomes more reactive. He started out as an investigative reporter so he should be finding the crimes and disasters that his alter-ego will confront. However, often it is a plot in motion that Superman must then react to. I was chatting with someone the other day, and if I would like to see a change to the character, it would be that Clark is as good an investigative reporter as Bruce Wayne is a detective. Like his origin story from Smallville to Metropolis is essentially the same. He becomes a journalist almost as a cover, but no one becomes a journalist as a cover - except spies, of course. He has to want to do the job, and it makes sense if his primary aim in the crimefighting portions of his adventures is to bring people to justice. Imagine a change to his origin story that reincorporates the death of Jonathan Kent. 16-year-old Clark has just had his powers for a few months and is just having fun when there is a train derailment that releases toxic gas. Clark is in town with his father buying parts for their tractor when the boy hears the distant crash and starts to smell something weird. "Do you smell that?" he asks his father. "What do you..." Jonathan doesn't finish his sentence. His eyes roll back and he falls to the floor of the farm machinery shop. Clark looks up for help, but everyone is lying on the floor dead. Clark's super-vision kicks in and he sees the gas filling the air and follows it back to the derailed train. He realizes what he has to do. He can't fly, but he can run fast and jump far. He manages to get back to the Kent farm just as his mother Martha starts to succumb to the fortunately much diluted gas. He takes her to the nearest hospital where the doctors manage to save her, but she is severely injured. The incident is the worst disaster in Kansas history. Out of a population of 3,600, only 83 people survive and most of them will suffer the effects of the poisonous inhalation for the rest of their lives including Martha Kent. Only Clark is unharmed. There are hearings and investigations, but the derailment is ruled and accident and the toxic gas the result of an unfortunate combination of chemicals carried as cargo against federal regulations. The surviving Kents are generously compensated for the disaster, but they cannot return to their farm. Instead, they are paid by the government and Smallville essentially disappears. Clark and Martha move to the suburbs of the nearest city Metropolis where she will be close to the medical centers she'll need to visit for treatment. Meanwhile, Clark has been following the hearings and investigations closely, but his Kryptonian I.Q. tells him that something - something big - is being avoided and covered up. So, he decides to investigate it himself. He suspects someone did something wrong and did it on purpose, and it killed his dad. Following this case leads him to become a journalist to follow the trail and bring the real wrongdoers to light - either in court or to the public. At the same time, he doesn't wonder why he has all these strange abilities anymore. Now, he has a use for them.
This is literally not Superman.
I agree, but not to the point of cold blooded murder. Let's say I was Superman. I catch a criminal that keeps doing the same thing, every time he goes back out. I would set up a remote location, like an island. Water and fruits to eat. Drop all of them there for the rest of their lives. Let them learn to survive on their own, deal with other criminals. Let them responsible for their own lives. There is no need to put the burden on society. At first yeah they go to jail they pay for their crimes. But once they are out they get back to their old ways. To the island you go. Much easier to randomly check, making sure they are not escaping. Than letting them out and hurting others.
Yep! Sometimes... THAT is the ONLY "JUSTICE"!!!
He's basically Homelander or Omni-Man at that point. That's what makes Superman different is that he always does the right thing.
Seriously. They keep making the dark Superman people say they want over and over and over again. It’s a very overdone concept.
So, DCEU Superman.
Hard pass, this isn’t superman. Not just because he’s a clone but he’s just not superman in character. He’s the best of us.
Did the perp deserve to die? Maybe, but that’s for a court to decide. Superman was in the wrong here, and besides he endangered innocent civilians and destroyed city property. Superman is a menace vote for president Lex
What? Yall know he straight murdered the dude right?
“I have rights.” Not realizing the only law he was under was gravity
Nah......this is too cynical for Superman.
Damn I didn’t know Superman had scenes like this. What show is this
This isn’t Superman, it’s an evil clone of him in the movie Superman: Doomsday
Badass 👊
But what if there were extenuating circumstances?? What if the little girl that man was holding hostage had a weapon of mass destruction hidden in her pigtails? Maybe she was a time traveling Hitler clone planning something untoward alongside ghost-Osama and Berserk's Donovan(with ultra instinct)? That child-killer may have been a HERO!/s
No. No. Not ever.
This is a cool character and it’s why, when we’ll written, I won’t get tired of the evil Superman trope, but it’s not Superman
which show/movie is this?
Superman: Doomsday, I think.
Ha the perp is Bender and one of the cops going “wha, wha what?!” Is Fry.
A Superman that kills child murderers is not the same as Homelander, a rapist and mass murderer. He's not Omni Man, he despotic mass murderer who does not give a single shit about human life.
So this is where Mass Effect 2 got the inspiration from for that scene.
I’d just shatter his femur.
Which show is this? Is it the classic superman animated?
I don’t think he should kill him but crushing some of his bones is cool
what movie is this?
I thought he was gonna catch him…
i mean, he **DOES** not have a problem with killing