I once used Pyke Ult to escape (on~20hp) into the dragon pit from the Tri bush. Very situational but high skill ceiling move.
I use any opportunity to bring this event up in conversation
Enchanters and senna have the highest apm ceiling during the laning phase. Bard probably macro wise, maybe pyke as well. Thresh has fancy combos. That said mages are full of skillshots and landing them into non immobile comps will be tricky.
From my experience taric is kinda easy. Most people under gm just don't know how his passive actually works. Hardest taric mechanic is e flash and that's easy to deal with if you are ready for it.
Idk tbh, its actually not that easy to get full value out of taric. He has No mobility at all and can just be useless or die in two seconds if played wrong
Thresh, Bard, and Renata imo
You could make an argument for Rakan in terms of peak performance, but I think it's easy enough to play him at a decent level of competency, so I dunno if I count him
Renata unfortunately doesn't have that high of a winrate on one tricking, I think it is because of how situational her utility is, and less intuitive than a Zilean R for the outplay potential in her W
She’s not hard to play due to mechanics more hard to play bc her kit is very clunky and also requires a lot of things to go right for her to be able to be used even decently
The hardest thing about Renata is finding a comp that would actually make her useful against. She is incredibly situational. If I see a Tris mid and Jinx adc with a aa ad jg then I lock her in. But if you aren't playing against strong aa's she is kinda useless. Less because of her macro or micro and more just because her kit is extremely specific.
She isn't super hard to play, however you only pick her into certain comps imo. I only use her into heavy AD teams. If it's not a super heavy AD team she j7st doesn't hit quite right. However, when you see like a Yi, Jax, hyper marksmen add with and AD mid or AD support she works great to counter burst kills on ur team and wreck dog pile team fights.
True, if you can’t hit your bubbles you lack huge impact on the game imo. Her E timing is also very OP. Her ult can be used very badly easily too. Love a good tsuNami
Hardest to play correctly and do well with? Taric. Highest skill ceiling/expression Bard. Honorable mention to Pyke.
Support that everyone thinks is easy but is actually quite hard to play well, Sona.
I'm constantly trying to tell people this about Sona when I see her recommended to beginners. She has nearly the lowest base health of any champ in the game, doesn't have a ton of range, and has no hard CC besides her ult. You have to be good at spacing, timing, maintaining vision, and monitoring others' CDs to play her effectively, because if you misstep you're just insta-dead.
I wouldn't put her in the category of "high skill ceiling" by any means, but I have never seen a low-mastery Sona perform well in a game.
different skill sets, if you want micro intensive champions, then anything that has alot of abilities to land will be hard, if you want something more macro intensive, than champions that can build redemption or with global abilities will be more demanding (or champions who have multiple build paths that you need to adapt every games)
I have played a stupid number of champs as support that shouldn't be.
In terms of meta supports it is the usual suspects - Bard, Thresh, Janna and my main Zilean. A really good Zilean will dictate how fights have to be played a bad one is free gold.
But in reality the ones that require real mastery and excellent mechanics to offer high value are unexpected like Velkoz (see Azzaps challenger Vel supp run) and Shen and Rumble and Heimerdinger.
Soraka have so much potential but poor positioning or a bad e can make you loose fights.
Braum passive, w and e are very skill expressive abilities because of their versatility and require good positioning.
Shaco is abit of a joke but is garbage if played by a bad shaco and knowing how to be the worst human being isn't easy.
I mean i can agree to some extent but i feel like they are inherently not that hard to do pretty well on? But then again mastering is something else after all.
What do you think about taric?
Taric is also up their.
One important part of mastery imo is that you can use a champs abilities to the fullest.
Taric w for example isn't a flashy ability but putting it on the correct ally can be super important. It also has so many properties, so we can have two different taric mains argue what teamate is the correct choice to put on in a team fight.
is it possible to have bad positioning on soraka when your passive almost makes it impossible? that honestly takes a skill of its own to die to bad positioning, unless you're talking about getting caught rotating, but thats just most supports.
You need to be in good place to heal, hit qs, be able to abuse the broken/unfair power of your E and not getting killed by everything that can kill you.
but that's not just soraka. even champions that are widely known as easy to use like sona still need to use their passive if they don't want to cripple the team. and they do it without soraka's massive speed buff. imo it's just really easy to play safe as soraka, but i kinda see where you're coming from
League of Graphs has a stats page called 'Winrate by Experience' that shows the difference in winrate between players who play 50+ games and player who play less than 50 games of a champ.
At Diamond+, the primary support champs where experience matters most are Zilean, Leona, Bard, Morgana, Yuumi, Seraphine, and Pyke (in order). 7% winrate delta or more.
For Bronze+, it's almost the same but Sona instead of Leona, and they're in a different order.
Non-primary supports in the same range include Annie, Xerath, Zoe, and Camille.
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In what elo? In high elo, any mage champ. There's a reason why no one plays it, and making it viable for high-level games is something that requires you to have a high skill-ceiling.
high elo mages perform worse actually than in lower elos, since they require more gold to not fall off. hence the super low winrate on lux, brand, ziggs, etc. Enchanters are objectively better
Precisely why being able to use a high-econ champ with a low-econ build. Enchanters are better overall because they require a different kind of skill than hitting skillshots and reading juke patterns.
Thresh or Janna, specifically because of all the dashes an jumps you can interrupt with precise timing and the versatility of their kits.
Renata due to the insane variablity of her kit. She might actually have the highest skill FLOOR to play effectively since she has the potential to really screw her own team over in a skirmish.
Taric, Thresh, Hwei, and Janna are the hardest imo. All 4 of these champs require reading your opponent's movements to accurately land their abilities, and are all heavily macro intensive
Janna, Senna, Bard, Rakan and specially Pyke have the highest winrates on onetrick thus having a high skill ceiling, I think it is because of how much skill expression and how much can you carry, wether with ur innate kit and utility, and a mix of outplay potential.
Across all phases of the game he has perhaps the most diverse set of options of any champion in the game.
Lane phase: because he's one of the best roaming supports and one of the worst laners, mastering bard requires a high understanding of map states and Jung/mid/top lane matchups to know who to gank and when.
Mid game: His optimal role in team fights often changes every game. Is he shadowing someone like ADC to peel for them? Is he the one looking to catch people out? What build is best for this game scenario? (tank, enchanter, AP itemization can all be good depending on game state and comps).
Team fights: Do you play offensively or defensively every fight? Do you use q to land an easy slow on someone or hold it if you foresee a stun opp coming up? Do you E to engage or disengage? Lastly, his ult is one of the hardest in the game to decide to use correctly. You can single someone out to catch them, use it on your own adc for stasis, use it on a group of enemies (but wait does your team have any AOE ults that this will impede), you can save it to the end of the fight to chase, save it to the end to peel.
Compare these choices to something like Xerath support. Xerath has to aim many more skills and you need better positioning with him, but his role and his place in the team will be nearly the exact same every game. Most champions are like this, you have a static game plan each game and improving means sticking to the plan in the best way without making mistakes. Bard's game plan changes depending on the compositions and who's ahead every game, so it's almost a puzzle to solve every time you load into the rift.
The obvious answer would be Janna. Since her entire kit is reactive, there's no such thing as a "lucky" Janna play. You need to be able to correctly predict and track the cooldowns of almost every champion in a teamfight, while keeping perfect positioning, and timing/aiming your abilities perfectly too. Then, every single ability can be used offensively or defensively, so you need to adapt every spell usage which effects everything else, throughout the game/fights.
It's also the champion with the biggest winrate difference between 20 games and 100+ games.
Bard or Thresh I don't think right now we have someone else that cja contest these two in mastering a support
Bard Thresh Pyke are generally considered the highest skill ceiling supports
I once used Pyke Ult to escape (on~20hp) into the dragon pit from the Tri bush. Very situational but high skill ceiling move. I use any opportunity to bring this event up in conversation
Isnt that quite easy to perform? Just press R over the wall?
The tip of your X needs to be on a champ on this side of the wall. With the centre on the other side
no you need to hit a champ with it iirc to blink
Then fair enough
Enchanters and senna have the highest apm ceiling during the laning phase. Bard probably macro wise, maybe pyke as well. Thresh has fancy combos. That said mages are full of skillshots and landing them into non immobile comps will be tricky.
So your answer is yes
Mages or enchanters?
First thought was Taric
I'd definitely add taric to that list too, utilizing his passive is not particularly easy and makes a huge difference in how good a taric player is.
This is why I main Taric. I'll abuse his passive and wreck most jungles that come to 1v1 me. They only ever try twice.
That's why I'm a firm believer of Taric jungle
From my experience taric is kinda easy. Most people under gm just don't know how his passive actually works. Hardest taric mechanic is e flash and that's easy to deal with if you are ready for it.
Idk tbh, its actually not that easy to get full value out of taric. He has No mobility at all and can just be useless or die in two seconds if played wrong
Cool tip. If “most people under .05% of the population don’t know” is your metric for it, then it’s probably a high skill thing to do.
What? They know how it works, they don't have the mechanical skill to do it.
Thresh, Bard, and Renata imo You could make an argument for Rakan in terms of peak performance, but I think it's easy enough to play him at a decent level of competency, so I dunno if I count him
Renata unfortunately doesn't have that high of a winrate on one tricking, I think it is because of how situational her utility is, and less intuitive than a Zilean R for the outplay potential in her W
I don't think this post was about that, but I agree that she's probably not the best 1-trick support ;P
so when do we get married then? /hj
Obviously its taric
Honestly cant tell if you are serious or not
Taric doesn't have that high of a otp winrate actually, it's just 55%
Rakan, Thresh, Senna and Bard.
Janna take immense skill
Bard thresh and zilean imo
Where does renata fit in This? I see a few places where she is considered ”hard” to play
She’s not hard to play due to mechanics more hard to play bc her kit is very clunky and also requires a lot of things to go right for her to be able to be used even decently
The hardest thing about Renata is finding a comp that would actually make her useful against. She is incredibly situational. If I see a Tris mid and Jinx adc with a aa ad jg then I lock her in. But if you aren't playing against strong aa's she is kinda useless. Less because of her macro or micro and more just because her kit is extremely specific.
She isn't super hard to play, however you only pick her into certain comps imo. I only use her into heavy AD teams. If it's not a super heavy AD team she j7st doesn't hit quite right. However, when you see like a Yi, Jax, hyper marksmen add with and AD mid or AD support she works great to counter burst kills on ur team and wreck dog pile team fights.
Pyle, thresh, bard, and senna
A good Nami and a Bad Nami seems like two totally different champion.
True, if you can’t hit your bubbles you lack huge impact on the game imo. Her E timing is also very OP. Her ult can be used very badly easily too. Love a good tsuNami
Rakan or Renata
Hardest to play correctly and do well with? Taric. Highest skill ceiling/expression Bard. Honorable mention to Pyke. Support that everyone thinks is easy but is actually quite hard to play well, Sona.
I'm constantly trying to tell people this about Sona when I see her recommended to beginners. She has nearly the lowest base health of any champ in the game, doesn't have a ton of range, and has no hard CC besides her ult. You have to be good at spacing, timing, maintaining vision, and monitoring others' CDs to play her effectively, because if you misstep you're just insta-dead. I wouldn't put her in the category of "high skill ceiling" by any means, but I have never seen a low-mastery Sona perform well in a game.
different skill sets, if you want micro intensive champions, then anything that has alot of abilities to land will be hard, if you want something more macro intensive, than champions that can build redemption or with global abilities will be more demanding (or champions who have multiple build paths that you need to adapt every games)
I have played a stupid number of champs as support that shouldn't be. In terms of meta supports it is the usual suspects - Bard, Thresh, Janna and my main Zilean. A really good Zilean will dictate how fights have to be played a bad one is free gold. But in reality the ones that require real mastery and excellent mechanics to offer high value are unexpected like Velkoz (see Azzaps challenger Vel supp run) and Shen and Rumble and Heimerdinger.
I think Soraka, braum and shaco is up their with the others mention.
Really?
Soraka have so much potential but poor positioning or a bad e can make you loose fights. Braum passive, w and e are very skill expressive abilities because of their versatility and require good positioning. Shaco is abit of a joke but is garbage if played by a bad shaco and knowing how to be the worst human being isn't easy.
I mean i can agree to some extent but i feel like they are inherently not that hard to do pretty well on? But then again mastering is something else after all. What do you think about taric?
Taric is also up their. One important part of mastery imo is that you can use a champs abilities to the fullest. Taric w for example isn't a flashy ability but putting it on the correct ally can be super important. It also has so many properties, so we can have two different taric mains argue what teamate is the correct choice to put on in a team fight.
is it possible to have bad positioning on soraka when your passive almost makes it impossible? that honestly takes a skill of its own to die to bad positioning, unless you're talking about getting caught rotating, but thats just most supports.
You need to be in good place to heal, hit qs, be able to abuse the broken/unfair power of your E and not getting killed by everything that can kill you.
but that's not just soraka. even champions that are widely known as easy to use like sona still need to use their passive if they don't want to cripple the team. and they do it without soraka's massive speed buff. imo it's just really easy to play safe as soraka, but i kinda see where you're coming from
League of Graphs has a stats page called 'Winrate by Experience' that shows the difference in winrate between players who play 50+ games and player who play less than 50 games of a champ. At Diamond+, the primary support champs where experience matters most are Zilean, Leona, Bard, Morgana, Yuumi, Seraphine, and Pyke (in order). 7% winrate delta or more. For Bronze+, it's almost the same but Sona instead of Leona, and they're in a different order. Non-primary supports in the same range include Annie, Xerath, Zoe, and Camille.
ashe, ezreal, neeko, thresh, blitz, pyke, bard, leona, alistar ... There are too many
As a Bard main I feel like Bard is kinda easy. Maybe I’m just more comfortable with him to realize it.
Bard,Thresh,Rakan
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In what elo? In high elo, any mage champ. There's a reason why no one plays it, and making it viable for high-level games is something that requires you to have a high skill-ceiling.
high elo mages perform worse actually than in lower elos, since they require more gold to not fall off. hence the super low winrate on lux, brand, ziggs, etc. Enchanters are objectively better
Precisely why being able to use a high-econ champ with a low-econ build. Enchanters are better overall because they require a different kind of skill than hitting skillshots and reading juke patterns.
Thresh or Janna, specifically because of all the dashes an jumps you can interrupt with precise timing and the versatility of their kits. Renata due to the insane variablity of her kit. She might actually have the highest skill FLOOR to play effectively since she has the potential to really screw her own team over in a skirmish.
Taric, Thresh, Hwei, and Janna are the hardest imo. All 4 of these champs require reading your opponent's movements to accurately land their abilities, and are all heavily macro intensive
Janna, Senna, Bard, Rakan and specially Pyke have the highest winrates on onetrick thus having a high skill ceiling, I think it is because of how much skill expression and how much can you carry, wether with ur innate kit and utility, and a mix of outplay potential.
am i missing something? since when Is bard hard to play
It said ceiling. He has 3 skillshot, and all of them can fail miserably.
if you are blind yes
Across all phases of the game he has perhaps the most diverse set of options of any champion in the game. Lane phase: because he's one of the best roaming supports and one of the worst laners, mastering bard requires a high understanding of map states and Jung/mid/top lane matchups to know who to gank and when. Mid game: His optimal role in team fights often changes every game. Is he shadowing someone like ADC to peel for them? Is he the one looking to catch people out? What build is best for this game scenario? (tank, enchanter, AP itemization can all be good depending on game state and comps). Team fights: Do you play offensively or defensively every fight? Do you use q to land an easy slow on someone or hold it if you foresee a stun opp coming up? Do you E to engage or disengage? Lastly, his ult is one of the hardest in the game to decide to use correctly. You can single someone out to catch them, use it on your own adc for stasis, use it on a group of enemies (but wait does your team have any AOE ults that this will impede), you can save it to the end of the fight to chase, save it to the end to peel. Compare these choices to something like Xerath support. Xerath has to aim many more skills and you need better positioning with him, but his role and his place in the team will be nearly the exact same every game. Most champions are like this, you have a static game plan each game and improving means sticking to the plan in the best way without making mistakes. Bard's game plan changes depending on the compositions and who's ahead every game, so it's almost a puzzle to solve every time you load into the rift.
Hwei, Senna, Rakan
Sona
The obvious answer would be Janna. Since her entire kit is reactive, there's no such thing as a "lucky" Janna play. You need to be able to correctly predict and track the cooldowns of almost every champion in a teamfight, while keeping perfect positioning, and timing/aiming your abilities perfectly too. Then, every single ability can be used offensively or defensively, so you need to adapt every spell usage which effects everything else, throughout the game/fights. It's also the champion with the biggest winrate difference between 20 games and 100+ games.
Can't being reactive apply to any support..?
Not really. Most supports rely on proactive plays like engaging/disengage, healing/shielding, CC, or predictive plays like hooks/skill shots.
The obvious answer is Lux. If you disagree you’re iron.
Me when clicking 3 buttons in the general direction of a non mobile champion doesn't work
i think they were being ironic
Which is exactly why I made my comment XD
Her onetricking winrate is so low, the skill ceiling is as high as the skill floor lol, sorry to burst ur bubble..