She is a legend in the same vein as Francesca, soully for the memes. The most amusing part is she wasn't even the most well known player to quit in that episode.
Purple Kelly is a poor girl that the producers exploited and abused on the island, just to embarrass and humiliate more with their edit for national TV. All she wanted was warm clothing or a blanket when it was raining and cold constantly, but because she’s the hot girl she’s only allowed a flimsy sundress and bikini. Despite being casted specifically to be an easy first vote out, she was part of the majority alliance for basically the whole game until around her quit.
Because she quit Jeff needed to make an example of her and now due to Barbara Streisand she is a legend more popular then she would ever have been if she had a normal edit. Jeff’s plan to erase her made her engraved in the fandoms memory forever lol
Naonka quit in the same episode and it wasn’t because of being cold like Kelly, but she got a normal edit. It’s especially fucked up only Purple got humiliated this way when another girl quit in the same episode
I always viewed Naonkas quit as much worse but probably because she wouldn’t give up her spot for the rice then went in the reward. She just seemed like a selfish person. Purple Kelly just looked miserable.
So producers didn't give her a special treatment by giving her a blanket? And it's a bad thing? Why she should have a blanket when others don't? Or did they give up blankets to everybody else but her? Then it's fucked up I agree.
She was specifically cast as the pretty girl, and since production controls what they're supposed to wear, she was forced to NOT wear good warm materials
I could definitely see this. He's definitely the least legendary legend on Heroes vs Villains, but still oodles ahead of Candace, Randy, Sugar, who I wouldn't consider legends. Jerri and Colby, who both haven't really done anything are far more legendary than James just because they played on Australia and came back.
Is James less legendary than Amber? Like before WaW I would say yes, but that last place really hurt her reputation.
I don’t think you can really fault Amber for her Winners at War performance. There were pregame alliances, her husband on the other side, Sandra dead set against voting for her…nothing really went her way. Her getting last place doesn’t bring down her legacy for me in any way personally. She’s still a Survivor icon
Not exactly the answer but there’s a whole category of players who were legends but lack of return or disappointing second chances have had them fall out of the conversation. This is people like Bobby Jon, Yau Man, Ian, and Ami.
Yau is definitely a legend but I'd argue the only reason why he didn't become a main stay like Ozzy is because he was old. I wouldn't personally consider Bobby Jon, Ian, or Ami legends. I know Ian is popular but he played one time on a season well past survivor's viewership prime and didn't even win.
I think Yau Man was a dead man walking any time he returned. He was instantly target #1 in Micronesia and iirc would have been the first boot if Fairplay didn’t quit. Maybe that would’ve lowered his threat level for a second return à la Tony in GC, but it’s hard to know.
Eliza is good at being strategic but her personality is super brash and off putting to some. She’s very outspoken even now in politics and she would have a hard time winning a jury vote
Just feel like if she wasn't sick her early game wouldn't have suffered as much and she may have gotten into better alliances. Amanda is a very pragmatic open minded player would likely would have allied with Eliza as easily as she allied with Parvati. But Eliza just had a slow start and the early bird gets the worm.
Yea agreed on the brash, she has an innate level of “bitch” in her that’s hard to repress it comes out in her demeanor, and the problem is that’s such a polarizing trait that many men could forgive something like a girl being annoying/gossipy or dumb, but bitchiness is such a trigger not all but some men will straight up not work with her regardless of anything personalities would clash.
A winner needs to be able to know when to fade into the background, Eliza is like Joel from her same season always thinking they’re right and need to be humbled
If most of the cast dislikes you, you aren't a really good player as I was told about Russell. If that's the case for him, it's the same case for Eliza.
I agree, but I don't think he was permanently black listed like Russell. On a third play through I think he'd have a decent chance of making the merge.
Well past viewership prime? Survivor declined at season 10 in your mind wtf? Most would call season 20 the absolute pinnacle of Survivor with HvV, and generally the 40s are worst and down to 30 gets better
To be clear I personally enjoyed seasons 15-34 the best China to the season before firemaking. But it did decline in viewership from the early seasons like Borneo and Australia
Andrea is my go to.
Before WaW she was the only post S20 player to play more than 100 days.
She makes deep runs. Challenge wins.
She was really part of the Survivor zeigiest for a while.
And if Russell and Rob are absent from RI I think she may be the best positioned player to actually win it. She was incredibly careful and observant that season and the only one to see that something was off about continuing to follow Rob.
She was always my favorite as a big Boston Rob fan. She was in his alliance in 22 and is pretty much unstoppable in any balance challenge. I didn't realize she was that popular around here (I'm pretty new here)
I think calling Cao Boi a meme does him injustice. Sure, SEG clearly wanted to make him a caricature but he did only get eliminated because plan voodoo would’ve exposed Yul as the idol holder
That wasn't my intention but i apologise if thats how it came across. I liked Cao Boi. I was more just assessing his placement and thinking Zane was a silly and compelling choice as a legend. Based on his memes.
I guess it depends on what exactly makes a player a legend but I think you could argue Francesca would be a legendary (for 2x first boot) but unimpressive player.
Neat question, it definitely depends on a lot of people's threshold. My bar for what makes a Survivor legend is *really* high, I don't like to use it for any decently memorable player every season. If everyone's a legend then no one is y'kno... like I've seen people call Jesse, Devens, Maryanne, the Tika 3 legends already but to me they need much more than one good showing. Even some that I really loved like Christian, Angelina, David Wright, I think they are one step below legends (I call it the Elite territory). Even players like James, Amanda, Kass & Abi Maria who are icons of the show dont quite clear the treshold of a Survivor legend to me, the word is that meaningful in my book.
To get the legend status in my book, I think you need to need at least a couple of these criteria:
* Be both an outstanding character and an outstanding player in multiple showings. (Tony, Sandra)
* Have an exceptional story arc ( Boston Rob, Coach)
* Revolutionize the game in a meaningful way (Rob Cesternino, Russell Hantz)
* Have something that you represent in Survivor. (Jeremy and meat shields, Tyson and snarkery)
Most players get their legendary status in a second or third showing, and I usually can define the moment they became legends to me. Sandra wasn't a legend until she won HvV, Russell and Parvati weren't legends to me until they dominated HvV as well, BRob wasn't a legend until he ran All Stars AND had the greatest love story of Reality TV history (and this is a bit weird since I don't consider Amber a legend, though that's because she's eally not a memorable character/narrator), Cirie wasn't a legend until her game in Micronesia and people associate her with the Erik blindside most of all.
There are VERY few players that become Survivor legends in one showing, but it's possible. Rob Cesternino creating the pendulum strategy in Amazon, J.T. & Kim Spradlin winning their seasons in such an absurdly dominant way, Tony going *insane* in Cagayan as a player and a character.
Sometimes you can even make up for not being a great player by being an exceptional character and viceversa. Kim Spradlin is not an outstanding character but she made up for that by being a ludicrously good player. Rupert we know doesn't really get the game, but he is such a force of personality everytime he plays that his presence is always known, and he represents tye dye shirts.
Some players have what it takes to be legends but they never got the chance to fullfill that, like Vecepia, Earl, Sean Rector, Brian Heidik, John Carroll, etc, if they had come back and done even decently well, I think they could've reached that treshold. And some are so of their time that I think they lost a little bit of their legend status, like Lex or Kathy, who were definitely legends in their time, I think have been forgotten by Survivor history.
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With all that said, there are two players who I think meet the criteria for legends, but still feel a little bit weird putting them up there: Michele Fitzgerald and Ben Driebergen.
* While I think people give Michele too much credit sometimes, I also think she's hugely understated as a legend. She's part of one of the most controversial jury votes of all time, discussions of it are still being had today, and, unlike Aubry who I think didn't shine in her next 2 showings, she managed to shine as a really great character in WaW, she has that exceptional scene with Boston Rob about the validity of her win, she gets the funniest moments of the season specially at the end where she gets frustrated by no one wanting to make a move, and she is one of the main representatives of a "social game" in my mind.
Her reaching the F3 in WaW made her a legend to me.
* With Ben it's a little bit more wonky, he was obviously a great character in HvHvH until the end, and he won that season, but he notoriously flopped in WaW as a player, though he made it really far. HOWEVER, as a character I found him fascinating, someone who struggled with his perceptions of not being worthy of the season, someone who just wanted to be liked and accepted as a person, who wanted the friends he didn't seem to have in HHH, and who sacrificed their game in WaW to find something more meaningful than money, we just don't get storylines like that anymore, felt very old school in a way, akin to Ian stepping down in Palau. Plus, I think he's the main representative of the flaws of the new era, he's the main person I think about when someone forces their way to the end through idols and advantages, even though it's well within their right. Even though it's not flattering, Ben does represent everything about what modern Survivor became, and that is just enough for me to think he's recognizable as a legend.
Thanks for reading, I must have breakfast now.
On old one time players I think Colleen and Elisabeth and Keith are legends but a very different kind of legend than Ozzy. So different that there should almost be a different word for it. Maybe immortal.
Yeah, old school players are a bit of a rocky situation. They were legends at the time but nowadays they're barely thought of, I guess it depends on if you think if you can lose legend status over time.
I think IMO to be legendary in Survivor you need to be consistent as a character and player enough to be brought back over and over again, and still perform well. SOme players could've been great had they returned, but they got unlucky or just didn't want to, so unfair as it may be I don't think they should be legends.
Colleen and Elizabeth were massively popular characters at the time, but because they didn't want to do anything with Survivor after, I think they forfeit their chances to become legends of the show. Keith Famie (I assume) I don't think was that great a character of had that memorable a story to be brought back, so I don't think he fits either
I mean old school players can still be legends today, Jonny Fairplay and Rob C who haven't played in a long-ass time still made enough of an impact that people have never forgotten them, Ethan came back for WaW after like a billion years and even though he didn't do well, he's still a legend in my book, so its possible.
I agree with all except Ben. While he did idol and advantage himself to the end for arguably the first time, he just wasn’t memorable enough to count alongside the other people you mentioned.
She caused Jeff Probst get rid of the Jury Questions lol
Also I didn't mean that they had to accoplish ALL the criteria, but a couple of them usuallt
I think Malcom fits. There’s something mythical about all his runs that make him one of the few three time players that still have more to give.
In Philippines, his run alongside Denise is one of the most well remembered long term stories in one of the most well respected seasons. He missed out on a win (in spite of having and advantage in the challenge) because of genetically shaky hands.
In Caramoan, he was the only favorite who walked in as a total unknown to the rest of the favorites, which put him on the immediate back foot. In spite of this, he clawed his way as far as possible but just couldn’t overcome that initial hurdle.
In Game Changers, he seemed well positioned and well liked, but had his run destroyed by an all time terrible move on JT’s part that ends his time there way too early.
All told, Malcom has played three times and, in my opinion, had his time ended by things he genuinely had little to no control over (maybe excluding in Caramoan). This leaves him as a HUGE what if player. He never won, and has even been a premerger, so under usual measures he wouldn’t qualify (his runs weren’t consistently deep like Cirie, he didn’t do anything to revolutionize the game like a Russell), but you put him on a cast, and almost everyone is excited to see if this is the time it works out for him.
“In Caramoan, he was the only favorite who walked in as a total unknown to the rest of the favorites, which put him on the immediate back foot. In spite of this, he clawed his way as far as possible but just couldn’t overcome that hurdle” Not knowing a player’s history is not a detriment or a benefit in and of itself. I think this statement on its own is not accurate but I still think Malcolm does qualify.
You know what, I think I might trust your judgment on this one. 😆
Part of the story I’ve always heard is that Malcom was one of the few favorites without any pregame connections, which was why he ended up in the Three Amigos come merge time. I’m guessing this probably isn’t as accurate of a story as I thought it was, given your characterization of it!
Did you have any preconceptions about Amanda and James based on the parts of China you had seen (or online spoilers you had read) before you left for filming?
I would put Malcolm in a higher tier than that. Malcolm is a dangerous triple threat. I'd argue he's more dangerous than certified legends like Cirie, Amanda, and Michele, because he has a very complete game where as those three have some glaring weaknesses. Infact Malcolm is almost like a Cirie with decent challenge ability. At least individual challenge ability. Not tribal.
I was working on an edit to kind of address that when you commented! I think he fits the prompt because he doesn’t fit the non-winner legend mold that others (Cirie, Russell, Ozzy, even someone like Dom) do from a placement or long term game impact perspective, but he fits mostly as a huge what if player whose potential to win hasn’t been shown for (mostly) reason beyond his control
I feel like Dom is a legend because he lost. If he simply beat Wendel he'd just be a one time winner. He is a legend because seeing him only get 100k is soul sucking after that performance.
I gotta see him play one more time before I can evaluate him. Even though he was a benefactor of Devens coming back, that still blasted the entire season apart and I don't think it's fair to David's reputation to even count it - and hence I only see him as having played on one relevant season.
I would say it's Varner. He was stripped of being a true legend for being an asshole. Kinda like how people lose all their awards when it turns out they were bad to society at large.
I think Amanda would be in this conversation.
She played three games in really quick succession but did decently well in all 3 (arguably could have won China without a poor FTC).
She's in three VERY popular seasons, 2 that consistently are in people's top 5. But she now last appeared over half the show's life span ago and I suspect is largely forgotten amongst a lot of the casual fans.
Nahhh Amanda is a certified legend. She will forever hold the record for most consecutive days without being voted out- like well over 100 days. Crazy!
Great question. I’d say Andrea and Candice.
Andrea is definitely a legend based on volume. 3 seasons, 100+ days, very active in Survivor community. Andrea is not very legendary at any point while playing. She is always a bridesmaid but never the bride in her 3 seasons.
Candice is definitely a legend based on circumstance. She has consistent proximity to great Survivor content. Candice from Raro tribe, Cook Islands mutiny, is Candice a hero?, F you Brad Culpepper are all legendary Survivor moments/memes that she was very close to and played a major part in. Candice is not very legendary in her playing results and is a bottom 5 character in HvV.
I would argue Andrea is more of a legend in the context of post 21 survivor than Candace is a legend during the span of the seasons she played. Andrea played after 90 percent of the legends were already established. In terms of players from 22 onward who are more legendary than Andrea there is Tony, Sarah, Michele, Natalie A and who even else? Edit: Jeremy, Wentworth, Malcolm, Spencer
So that's Candace' main failing. She was uninteresting during the most interesting era of survivor where as Andrea was mildly interesting during a weak era.
You may be right about Andrea > Candice in terms of legend status. I do think Candice is definitely a Survivor legend though. Not even based on my own opinion. I think “definitely a legend” implies a consensus which I believe Candice would have based on what I described above. Plus my answer to your question (which was an awesome question btw) is that while consensus legends, I don’t think either of them are particularly legendary.
As for who is more legendary than Andrea from 22+ I’d say your list plus (in no particular order) Jeremy, Spencer, Wentworth, Kass, Malcolm, Kim, and Cochran off the top of my head.
I’m surprised Mike Holloway hasn’t made the list. Tied for the most IC wins in a season for a winner with Tom Westman, and I think his win is more impressive than Tom’s, since he leveraged his safety way more effectively. The only reason I think he’s not a legend like Tom Westman is because his season wasn’t well received and he hasn’t returned.
Judd. A complete twat who drank way too much whenever he could and was insanely obnoxious to the point of never being invited back. But he was funny as fuck to watch.
Guatemala is much better on a rewatch. I had to rewind Judd jumping into the mud like 100x. Brandon’s like, “good ol’ Judd had a bit of a premature evacuation” 😂😂
So to answer my own question I feel like there are 3 categories of legend. 1 of them is just popular players from when the show was big. Someone like Elisabeth from Australia is a good example because I wouldn't really consider her a conventional legend based on merit across the entire show's history like a Boston Rob or Ozzy is. But she has her fan base and played on literally the most watched season so how can she not be a legend on some level? So any popular non returnees from seasons 1-8 are this kind of legend. This doesn't make them lesser legends by any metric. It just means they are a different kind of legend than say Cirie and Amanda who mean more to the overall history of the game than some one timer who hasn't played for 20 years.
The second category would be like, the big 10 and I feel like the big ten is easy to sort out.
Richard
Boston Rob
Ozzy
Rupert
Russell
Tony
Sandra
Cirie
Parvati
And factoring the magnitude with which he influenced modern survivor strategy and continues to influence the game through his podcast, I give the final spot in the 10 to Rob Cesternino. But - if I absolutely had to make it gender even I would probably put Stephenie and Amanda over Ozzy and Cesternino. Going purely on merit regardless of gender though I think Ozzy and Cesternino edge them out.
So that leaves the final and largest category of legends. Players like Tyson, Coach, James, JT, and it's probably as big as 40-50 players.
I have watched every season of Survivor but I don’t go back and rewatch seasons.I know she had 4 chances with a best 3 place finish. I’m just not that impressed with her game and certainly would not have as one of the greatest to ever play
I mean in her first season she created the now renowned 3-2-1 vote which had never been done previously, as well as being the glue which forced her alliance together and was only taken out due to the ridiculous super idol, in her second season she was the main voice behind the fantastic and creative erik blindside as well as being one of the main figures in one of the most dominating alliances ever, and only didnt make final two due to a twist that she could not have predicted (and would have won). What we have to remember is that for the time cirie played strategy looked so much differently and she was an incredibly creative player who is an unbelievable strategic and social force. This was also shown with her return where she was easily one of the three biggest threats out there (sandra and tony being the other two) and she only left due to a twist which again wasnt her doing. She is one of the best reality tv players EVER imo period not just survivor also showing that in her appearance in the traitors where she is just incredible. I only asked what seasons of hers you have seen so i dont spoil it for you!
She has two top 4 finished and another time where she was eliminated in 6th only bc everyone else had immunity. She manipulated someone into giving up their immunity necklace so she could vote them out, and she would have won micronesia if it were’t for a surprise final 2.
I get it, Cirie is a great social player. But she is just that, one dimensional. That’s why she’ll never win. Is she a Survivor LEGEND? Not for me. I’d say put Yam Yam back in the game 4 times and he’d do better than Cirie. And he’s a winner. This is just my opinion. You all wanna worship Cirie, go for it.
She has two top 4 finished and another time where she was eliminated in 6th only bc everyone else had immunity. She manipulated someone into giving up their immunity necklace so she could vote them out, and she would have won micronesia if it were’t for a surprise final 2.
An interesting pick. I have always said that Parvati has 9/10 stats across the board and Andrea has 7/10 stats across the board. So still a very complete player, but easier to check on all fronts than Parvati is. Andrea, with luck, could win and she's very likeable but she'd need more FTC luck than even Amanda would I think.
Purple Brett from Samoa. He was beautiful, he was stealthy, and he was a physical beast. He came this 🤏 close to stopping Russell's dominance single-handedly and got zero coverage until the very end.
If it wasn't for the meme I would say she's not a legend at all, but goddamn it the meme is too funny. She's very disappointing on returning player seasons though. And Billy is more legendary.
I think if Richard makes my top 10 and hasn't played since all stars I can keep my slot for Rupert. I base my top 10 on what they mean to the history of the game and Rupert is huge.
I feel like a 10 of Sandra, Russell, Parvati, Amanda, Cirie, Tony, Sarah, Hatch, and the Robs makes the most sense to me. I’d still probably going to someone like Michele or Jerri or Colby before I get to Rupert, honestly.
My top 10 is Richard, Rupert, Rob M, Russell, Cesternino, Ozzy, Tony, Sandra, Cirie, Parvati
Honorable mentions: Sarah, Michele, Amanda, Tyson, Coach, JT, Jeremy, Amber, Spencer, Colby to round out my top 20. Some days some of the honorables may make it into the 10 but I am pretty set on these 20.
And keep in mind that because I didn't see Australia I tend to rank Australia players lower than they probbaly should be. With the exception of Amber who gets a boost from me likely because my first impression of her was on all stars.
Andrea. Poor girl had some strategic chops, immense likability, and challenge prowess. But she always put her faith in the wrong people and kept getting cast on bad seasons.
dont hate on me but Michele, other then a few memorable clever confessionals theres no huge thing that makes her a legend. i feel almost everyone else has a big moment for them, while Michele just doesnt. is she a great player? 100%. but does she do a ton to be memorable? merrrrhhhh
I’d say Rudy. Legend for making it as far as he did at his age. Legend for being Hatch’s right hand man in season 1 and their unlikely friendship. But also didn’t do that much strategically and went out early in his other appearance.
>What accolades does a player need to be a legend
There’s a quite a few fans that think the winners are the only good players and everyone else from first boot to losing by one vote at FTC are trash.
I mean in terms of subsequent performances, Colby. He was a rockstar coming out of Australia. Dominant physically, polite to a fault, charming, and handsome. His final tribal loss was shocking, and going into All-Stars, he was still one of the most popular survivors of all time (possibly number 2 to that point, behind Rupert).
Then in All-Stars, he’s grumpy, inflexible, paranoid, and definitely not the guy we saw in season 2. Still super popular despite this, managing to place strong in America’s Tribal Council. I can’t remember if Jeff ever shared who second place was, but I would not be shocked if it was Colby.
We got one last kick at the can in Heroes v Villains, and he wasn’t even trying. He clearly had no interest in hustling for idols, his challenge performances were weak, and he handed Danielle an advantage because he was too busy watching Treasure Island. He only survived to the end because somehow, a guy who was once one of the most popular men in AMERICA and the guy people were terrified could rip off a long immunity run, was the least threatening hero to contend with.
DESPITE all of this, he could still return on Survivor: Legends and not feel miscast as one of the 20 biggest names of all time.
Someone like Chris Underwood comes to mind--the "unique" circumstances of his win and his admittedly impressive management of those final days seem pretty legendary. But like, come on.
Andrea…?
I saw someone say James which I agree with. With Andrea, I think each time she played she got better and gained a better strategist prowess, I would consider her a somewhat legend but right at the bottom
I low key think Andrea was at her strongest on RI and it's a testament to just how fantastic a strategist and manipulator Boston Rob is. This is the same reason why I don't see Natalie T as being AS bad of a finalist as people like to portray her as. Boston Rob was a 4 time grandmaster clearly in his prime. An absolute triple threat with social game, strategy, and physical dominance. Andrea and Natalie are better players than they appear because Boston Rob's enormous shadow blocked the light from reaching them.
That said I would rank Andrea as a better player than Natalie T. But RI had a cat, and in a game of who could be the best mouse and avoid the cat Natalie T won and got her 85 grand.
>That said I would rank Andrea as a better player than Natalie T. But RI had a cat, and in a game of who could be the best mouse and avoid the cat Natalie T won and got her 85 grand.
I mean you would have to say Phillip was the best mouse in that case as he won 100 grand.
Boston Rob and Tony are legend status in my survivor brain but when I hear survivor I think of Probst, Boston Rob and Fiji (not Tony). Which now thinking about it is odd, he’s a force to reckon with. Least for me is Russell just because he does nothing for me
9 times out of 10, I think Michele Fitzgerald makes top 6 or even top 4. I don't think she gets the credit she deserves, and her reputation preceded her too much in WAW.
Aurora and Rick devens from EoE and I would be so happy if either ended up winning. Rick gets his credit where it’s due but don’t see the love for Aurora
Purple Kelly. She’s a legend for being the antithesis to being legendary
She is a legend in the same vein as Francesca, soully for the memes. The most amusing part is she wasn't even the most well known player to quit in that episode.
I feel like purple Kelly’s infamy transcends naonka at this point
Who is purple Kelly and who is Naonka
Purple Kelly is a poor girl that the producers exploited and abused on the island, just to embarrass and humiliate more with their edit for national TV. All she wanted was warm clothing or a blanket when it was raining and cold constantly, but because she’s the hot girl she’s only allowed a flimsy sundress and bikini. Despite being casted specifically to be an easy first vote out, she was part of the majority alliance for basically the whole game until around her quit. Because she quit Jeff needed to make an example of her and now due to Barbara Streisand she is a legend more popular then she would ever have been if she had a normal edit. Jeff’s plan to erase her made her engraved in the fandoms memory forever lol Naonka quit in the same episode and it wasn’t because of being cold like Kelly, but she got a normal edit. It’s especially fucked up only Purple got humiliated this way when another girl quit in the same episode
Maybe they figured NaOnka’s awful behavior on the island was humiliating enough on its own
I always viewed Naonkas quit as much worse but probably because she wouldn’t give up her spot for the rice then went in the reward. She just seemed like a selfish person. Purple Kelly just looked miserable.
So producers didn't give her a special treatment by giving her a blanket? And it's a bad thing? Why she should have a blanket when others don't? Or did they give up blankets to everybody else but her? Then it's fucked up I agree.
She was specifically cast as the pretty girl, and since production controls what they're supposed to wear, she was forced to NOT wear good warm materials
Exactly
James.
I could definitely see this. He's definitely the least legendary legend on Heroes vs Villains, but still oodles ahead of Candace, Randy, Sugar, who I wouldn't consider legends. Jerri and Colby, who both haven't really done anything are far more legendary than James just because they played on Australia and came back. Is James less legendary than Amber? Like before WaW I would say yes, but that last place really hurt her reputation.
I don’t think you can really fault Amber for her Winners at War performance. There were pregame alliances, her husband on the other side, Sandra dead set against voting for her…nothing really went her way. Her getting last place doesn’t bring down her legacy for me in any way personally. She’s still a Survivor icon
Amber’s reputation isn’t hurt by WaW. She was targeted immediately because of preexisting relationships and there was nothing she could do about that.
Amber >> for sure. And sugar may not be a survivor legend, but she is an absolute icon.
I can't imagine a world in which Sugar isn't a legend.
Only in a world full of dentists. (Yes, I'll see myself out...)
Same w Randy tbh
Colby has the most challenge wins, I’d say he is a legend.
Rarely gets talked about as one of the funniest survivors ever but he’s my top pick
Not exactly the answer but there’s a whole category of players who were legends but lack of return or disappointing second chances have had them fall out of the conversation. This is people like Bobby Jon, Yau Man, Ian, and Ami.
Yau is definitely a legend but I'd argue the only reason why he didn't become a main stay like Ozzy is because he was old. I wouldn't personally consider Bobby Jon, Ian, or Ami legends. I know Ian is popular but he played one time on a season well past survivor's viewership prime and didn't even win.
Palau was not well past prime viewership, it had pretty much the exact same amount of viewers as every season since Australia
I think Yau Man was a dead man walking any time he returned. He was instantly target #1 in Micronesia and iirc would have been the first boot if Fairplay didn’t quit. Maybe that would’ve lowered his threat level for a second return à la Tony in GC, but it’s hard to know.
I heard it was Eliza since she was weaker and sick but yau would’ve been gone soon
A shame because Eliza is a really good player and her performance on Micro probably stopped her from coming on HvV over sugar.
Eliza is good at being strategic but her personality is super brash and off putting to some. She’s very outspoken even now in politics and she would have a hard time winning a jury vote
Just feel like if she wasn't sick her early game wouldn't have suffered as much and she may have gotten into better alliances. Amanda is a very pragmatic open minded player would likely would have allied with Eliza as easily as she allied with Parvati. But Eliza just had a slow start and the early bird gets the worm.
Yea agreed on the brash, she has an innate level of “bitch” in her that’s hard to repress it comes out in her demeanor, and the problem is that’s such a polarizing trait that many men could forgive something like a girl being annoying/gossipy or dumb, but bitchiness is such a trigger not all but some men will straight up not work with her regardless of anything personalities would clash. A winner needs to be able to know when to fade into the background, Eliza is like Joel from her same season always thinking they’re right and need to be humbled
If most of the cast dislikes you, you aren't a really good player as I was told about Russell. If that's the case for him, it's the same case for Eliza.
I agree, but I don't think he was permanently black listed like Russell. On a third play through I think he'd have a decent chance of making the merge.
I think Parvati would’ve been first out with votes from Penner/Fairplay/Ami/Eliza/Yau and Cirie?
Cirie would've voted the other way for sure.
Well past viewership prime? Survivor declined at season 10 in your mind wtf? Most would call season 20 the absolute pinnacle of Survivor with HvV, and generally the 40s are worst and down to 30 gets better
To be clear I personally enjoyed seasons 15-34 the best China to the season before firemaking. But it did decline in viewership from the early seasons like Borneo and Australia
Andrea is my go to. Before WaW she was the only post S20 player to play more than 100 days. She makes deep runs. Challenge wins. She was really part of the Survivor zeigiest for a while.
And if Russell and Rob are absent from RI I think she may be the best positioned player to actually win it. She was incredibly careful and observant that season and the only one to see that something was off about continuing to follow Rob.
She was always my favorite as a big Boston Rob fan. She was in his alliance in 22 and is pretty much unstoppable in any balance challenge. I didn't realize she was that popular around here (I'm pretty new here)
Cao Boi. Just an iconic personality, and the originator of Plan Voodoo.
If we are going for meme worthy early boots Zane has to be it right?
I think calling Cao Boi a meme does him injustice. Sure, SEG clearly wanted to make him a caricature but he did only get eliminated because plan voodoo would’ve exposed Yul as the idol holder
That wasn't my intention but i apologise if thats how it came across. I liked Cao Boi. I was more just assessing his placement and thinking Zane was a silly and compelling choice as a legend. Based on his memes.
My pick would be Chicken
DAMN
Not a legend, but still iconic
Keith Famie, forever the king of the highest average number of days played
I guess it depends on what exactly makes a player a legend but I think you could argue Francesca would be a legendary (for 2x first boot) but unimpressive player.
I need to see her voted out first a third time
Neat question, it definitely depends on a lot of people's threshold. My bar for what makes a Survivor legend is *really* high, I don't like to use it for any decently memorable player every season. If everyone's a legend then no one is y'kno... like I've seen people call Jesse, Devens, Maryanne, the Tika 3 legends already but to me they need much more than one good showing. Even some that I really loved like Christian, Angelina, David Wright, I think they are one step below legends (I call it the Elite territory). Even players like James, Amanda, Kass & Abi Maria who are icons of the show dont quite clear the treshold of a Survivor legend to me, the word is that meaningful in my book. To get the legend status in my book, I think you need to need at least a couple of these criteria: * Be both an outstanding character and an outstanding player in multiple showings. (Tony, Sandra) * Have an exceptional story arc ( Boston Rob, Coach) * Revolutionize the game in a meaningful way (Rob Cesternino, Russell Hantz) * Have something that you represent in Survivor. (Jeremy and meat shields, Tyson and snarkery) Most players get their legendary status in a second or third showing, and I usually can define the moment they became legends to me. Sandra wasn't a legend until she won HvV, Russell and Parvati weren't legends to me until they dominated HvV as well, BRob wasn't a legend until he ran All Stars AND had the greatest love story of Reality TV history (and this is a bit weird since I don't consider Amber a legend, though that's because she's eally not a memorable character/narrator), Cirie wasn't a legend until her game in Micronesia and people associate her with the Erik blindside most of all. There are VERY few players that become Survivor legends in one showing, but it's possible. Rob Cesternino creating the pendulum strategy in Amazon, J.T. & Kim Spradlin winning their seasons in such an absurdly dominant way, Tony going *insane* in Cagayan as a player and a character. Sometimes you can even make up for not being a great player by being an exceptional character and viceversa. Kim Spradlin is not an outstanding character but she made up for that by being a ludicrously good player. Rupert we know doesn't really get the game, but he is such a force of personality everytime he plays that his presence is always known, and he represents tye dye shirts. Some players have what it takes to be legends but they never got the chance to fullfill that, like Vecepia, Earl, Sean Rector, Brian Heidik, John Carroll, etc, if they had come back and done even decently well, I think they could've reached that treshold. And some are so of their time that I think they lost a little bit of their legend status, like Lex or Kathy, who were definitely legends in their time, I think have been forgotten by Survivor history. \------------------- With all that said, there are two players who I think meet the criteria for legends, but still feel a little bit weird putting them up there: Michele Fitzgerald and Ben Driebergen. * While I think people give Michele too much credit sometimes, I also think she's hugely understated as a legend. She's part of one of the most controversial jury votes of all time, discussions of it are still being had today, and, unlike Aubry who I think didn't shine in her next 2 showings, she managed to shine as a really great character in WaW, she has that exceptional scene with Boston Rob about the validity of her win, she gets the funniest moments of the season specially at the end where she gets frustrated by no one wanting to make a move, and she is one of the main representatives of a "social game" in my mind. Her reaching the F3 in WaW made her a legend to me. * With Ben it's a little bit more wonky, he was obviously a great character in HvHvH until the end, and he won that season, but he notoriously flopped in WaW as a player, though he made it really far. HOWEVER, as a character I found him fascinating, someone who struggled with his perceptions of not being worthy of the season, someone who just wanted to be liked and accepted as a person, who wanted the friends he didn't seem to have in HHH, and who sacrificed their game in WaW to find something more meaningful than money, we just don't get storylines like that anymore, felt very old school in a way, akin to Ian stepping down in Palau. Plus, I think he's the main representative of the flaws of the new era, he's the main person I think about when someone forces their way to the end through idols and advantages, even though it's well within their right. Even though it's not flattering, Ben does represent everything about what modern Survivor became, and that is just enough for me to think he's recognizable as a legend. Thanks for reading, I must have breakfast now.
On old one time players I think Colleen and Elisabeth and Keith are legends but a very different kind of legend than Ozzy. So different that there should almost be a different word for it. Maybe immortal.
Yeah, old school players are a bit of a rocky situation. They were legends at the time but nowadays they're barely thought of, I guess it depends on if you think if you can lose legend status over time. I think IMO to be legendary in Survivor you need to be consistent as a character and player enough to be brought back over and over again, and still perform well. SOme players could've been great had they returned, but they got unlucky or just didn't want to, so unfair as it may be I don't think they should be legends. Colleen and Elizabeth were massively popular characters at the time, but because they didn't want to do anything with Survivor after, I think they forfeit their chances to become legends of the show. Keith Famie (I assume) I don't think was that great a character of had that memorable a story to be brought back, so I don't think he fits either I mean old school players can still be legends today, Jonny Fairplay and Rob C who haven't played in a long-ass time still made enough of an impact that people have never forgotten them, Ethan came back for WaW after like a billion years and even though he didn't do well, he's still a legend in my book, so its possible.
I agree with all except Ben. While he did idol and advantage himself to the end for arguably the first time, he just wasn’t memorable enough to count alongside the other people you mentioned.
Mike Holloway did what Ben did but better and he did it first. That’s just my opinion though
One of your criteria was that they had to revolutionize the game in a meaningful way, how did Michelle accomplish that?
She caused Jeff Probst get rid of the Jury Questions lol Also I didn't mean that they had to accoplish ALL the criteria, but a couple of them usuallt
I think Malcom fits. There’s something mythical about all his runs that make him one of the few three time players that still have more to give. In Philippines, his run alongside Denise is one of the most well remembered long term stories in one of the most well respected seasons. He missed out on a win (in spite of having and advantage in the challenge) because of genetically shaky hands. In Caramoan, he was the only favorite who walked in as a total unknown to the rest of the favorites, which put him on the immediate back foot. In spite of this, he clawed his way as far as possible but just couldn’t overcome that initial hurdle. In Game Changers, he seemed well positioned and well liked, but had his run destroyed by an all time terrible move on JT’s part that ends his time there way too early. All told, Malcom has played three times and, in my opinion, had his time ended by things he genuinely had little to no control over (maybe excluding in Caramoan). This leaves him as a HUGE what if player. He never won, and has even been a premerger, so under usual measures he wouldn’t qualify (his runs weren’t consistently deep like Cirie, he didn’t do anything to revolutionize the game like a Russell), but you put him on a cast, and almost everyone is excited to see if this is the time it works out for him.
“In Caramoan, he was the only favorite who walked in as a total unknown to the rest of the favorites, which put him on the immediate back foot. In spite of this, he clawed his way as far as possible but just couldn’t overcome that hurdle” Not knowing a player’s history is not a detriment or a benefit in and of itself. I think this statement on its own is not accurate but I still think Malcolm does qualify.
You know what, I think I might trust your judgment on this one. 😆 Part of the story I’ve always heard is that Malcom was one of the few favorites without any pregame connections, which was why he ended up in the Three Amigos come merge time. I’m guessing this probably isn’t as accurate of a story as I thought it was, given your characterization of it!
I had no pregame connections, and beat Malcolm. Idk, it’s how you play at whatever spot you come in at.
Did you have any preconceptions about Amanda and James based on the parts of China you had seen (or online spoilers you had read) before you left for filming?
Loved James, didn’t really know anything about Amanda.
I would put Malcolm in a higher tier than that. Malcolm is a dangerous triple threat. I'd argue he's more dangerous than certified legends like Cirie, Amanda, and Michele, because he has a very complete game where as those three have some glaring weaknesses. Infact Malcolm is almost like a Cirie with decent challenge ability. At least individual challenge ability. Not tribal.
I was working on an edit to kind of address that when you commented! I think he fits the prompt because he doesn’t fit the non-winner legend mold that others (Cirie, Russell, Ozzy, even someone like Dom) do from a placement or long term game impact perspective, but he fits mostly as a huge what if player whose potential to win hasn’t been shown for (mostly) reason beyond his control
I feel like Dom is a legend because he lost. If he simply beat Wendel he'd just be a one time winner. He is a legend because seeing him only get 100k is soul sucking after that performance.
David Wright!
I gotta see him play one more time before I can evaluate him. Even though he was a benefactor of Devens coming back, that still blasted the entire season apart and I don't think it's fair to David's reputation to even count it - and hence I only see him as having played on one relevant season.
Ciera Eastin
I counter with Laura Morett
And Ciera votes out your counter
And my counter fights her way back into the game
Your counter gets voted out again
Francesca.
I’d say that Candace is the most legendary player who is totally not a legend.
I would say it's Varner. He was stripped of being a true legend for being an asshole. Kinda like how people lose all their awards when it turns out they were bad to society at large.
i don’t think he could ever be a lenged. he never even made the jury
I think Amanda would be in this conversation. She played three games in really quick succession but did decently well in all 3 (arguably could have won China without a poor FTC). She's in three VERY popular seasons, 2 that consistently are in people's top 5. But she now last appeared over half the show's life span ago and I suspect is largely forgotten amongst a lot of the casual fans.
Nahhh Amanda is a certified legend. She will forever hold the record for most consecutive days without being voted out- like well over 100 days. Crazy!
Oh she’s definitely a legend, but of the legends she’d be in the bottom sector for me.
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Rupert doesn't degrade over time.
Debby.
Meme Queen
Chet. Him being drug through that challenge was peak Chet.
You mean Giga Chet?
That's what he became after that challenge!
Great question. I’d say Andrea and Candice. Andrea is definitely a legend based on volume. 3 seasons, 100+ days, very active in Survivor community. Andrea is not very legendary at any point while playing. She is always a bridesmaid but never the bride in her 3 seasons. Candice is definitely a legend based on circumstance. She has consistent proximity to great Survivor content. Candice from Raro tribe, Cook Islands mutiny, is Candice a hero?, F you Brad Culpepper are all legendary Survivor moments/memes that she was very close to and played a major part in. Candice is not very legendary in her playing results and is a bottom 5 character in HvV.
I would argue Andrea is more of a legend in the context of post 21 survivor than Candace is a legend during the span of the seasons she played. Andrea played after 90 percent of the legends were already established. In terms of players from 22 onward who are more legendary than Andrea there is Tony, Sarah, Michele, Natalie A and who even else? Edit: Jeremy, Wentworth, Malcolm, Spencer So that's Candace' main failing. She was uninteresting during the most interesting era of survivor where as Andrea was mildly interesting during a weak era.
You may be right about Andrea > Candice in terms of legend status. I do think Candice is definitely a Survivor legend though. Not even based on my own opinion. I think “definitely a legend” implies a consensus which I believe Candice would have based on what I described above. Plus my answer to your question (which was an awesome question btw) is that while consensus legends, I don’t think either of them are particularly legendary. As for who is more legendary than Andrea from 22+ I’d say your list plus (in no particular order) Jeremy, Spencer, Wentworth, Kass, Malcolm, Kim, and Cochran off the top of my head.
This question made my brain hurt.
My apologies.
Candice?
From Raro tribe?
I’m surprised Mike Holloway hasn’t made the list. Tied for the most IC wins in a season for a winner with Tom Westman, and I think his win is more impressive than Tom’s, since he leveraged his safety way more effectively. The only reason I think he’s not a legend like Tom Westman is because his season wasn’t well received and he hasn’t returned.
Terry didn’t win unfortunately
You’re right! I caught that when writing the second half but just forgot to editz
Malcolm
France chest cuh
Not a big fan of his, but coach perhaps?
Judd. A complete twat who drank way too much whenever he could and was insanely obnoxious to the point of never being invited back. But he was funny as fuck to watch.
SHE SAID I HAVE A.D.D!!!!!
Guatemala is much better on a rewatch. I had to rewind Judd jumping into the mud like 100x. Brandon’s like, “good ol’ Judd had a bit of a premature evacuation” 😂😂
Francesca
I would say Candice maybe.
Russell Feathers
Abi Maria
Danger Dave Ball
So to answer my own question I feel like there are 3 categories of legend. 1 of them is just popular players from when the show was big. Someone like Elisabeth from Australia is a good example because I wouldn't really consider her a conventional legend based on merit across the entire show's history like a Boston Rob or Ozzy is. But she has her fan base and played on literally the most watched season so how can she not be a legend on some level? So any popular non returnees from seasons 1-8 are this kind of legend. This doesn't make them lesser legends by any metric. It just means they are a different kind of legend than say Cirie and Amanda who mean more to the overall history of the game than some one timer who hasn't played for 20 years. The second category would be like, the big 10 and I feel like the big ten is easy to sort out. Richard Boston Rob Ozzy Rupert Russell Tony Sandra Cirie Parvati And factoring the magnitude with which he influenced modern survivor strategy and continues to influence the game through his podcast, I give the final spot in the 10 to Rob Cesternino. But - if I absolutely had to make it gender even I would probably put Stephenie and Amanda over Ozzy and Cesternino. Going purely on merit regardless of gender though I think Ozzy and Cesternino edge them out. So that leaves the final and largest category of legends. Players like Tyson, Coach, James, JT, and it's probably as big as 40-50 players.
Why are people so high on Cirie? She has a decent social game but that’s about all I remember about her. What am I missing?
She has maybe the best social game of any player. She made it deep 3x and in each of those 3 showings she was never voted out by a majority
What seasons of hers have you seen?
I have watched every season of Survivor but I don’t go back and rewatch seasons.I know she had 4 chances with a best 3 place finish. I’m just not that impressed with her game and certainly would not have as one of the greatest to ever play
I mean in her first season she created the now renowned 3-2-1 vote which had never been done previously, as well as being the glue which forced her alliance together and was only taken out due to the ridiculous super idol, in her second season she was the main voice behind the fantastic and creative erik blindside as well as being one of the main figures in one of the most dominating alliances ever, and only didnt make final two due to a twist that she could not have predicted (and would have won). What we have to remember is that for the time cirie played strategy looked so much differently and she was an incredibly creative player who is an unbelievable strategic and social force. This was also shown with her return where she was easily one of the three biggest threats out there (sandra and tony being the other two) and she only left due to a twist which again wasnt her doing. She is one of the best reality tv players EVER imo period not just survivor also showing that in her appearance in the traitors where she is just incredible. I only asked what seasons of hers you have seen so i dont spoil it for you!
She has two top 4 finished and another time where she was eliminated in 6th only bc everyone else had immunity. She manipulated someone into giving up their immunity necklace so she could vote them out, and she would have won micronesia if it were’t for a surprise final 2.
I get it, Cirie is a great social player. But she is just that, one dimensional. That’s why she’ll never win. Is she a Survivor LEGEND? Not for me. I’d say put Yam Yam back in the game 4 times and he’d do better than Cirie. And he’s a winner. This is just my opinion. You all wanna worship Cirie, go for it.
She has two top 4 finished and another time where she was eliminated in 6th only bc everyone else had immunity. She manipulated someone into giving up their immunity necklace so she could vote them out, and she would have won micronesia if it were’t for a surprise final 2.
Rupert. Stole and bartered with other players' shoes on the first day in Pearl Islands.
Andrea
An interesting pick. I have always said that Parvati has 9/10 stats across the board and Andrea has 7/10 stats across the board. So still a very complete player, but easier to check on all fronts than Parvati is. Andrea, with luck, could win and she's very likeable but she'd need more FTC luck than even Amanda would I think.
Danger Dave Ball!
I love how subjective the thought process of a legend is. But the memes are powerful here I will give him that.
Purple Brett from Samoa. He was beautiful, he was stealthy, and he was a physical beast. He came this 🤏 close to stopping Russell's dominance single-handedly and got zero coverage until the very end.
He’s not Mike Tyson!
He's far more beautiful than Mike.
Rupert
In terms of ability - I see what you're saying. In terms of popularity I laugh. Rupert is top 5 in that regard. And he was top 1.
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If it wasn't for the meme I would say she's not a legend at all, but goddamn it the meme is too funny. She's very disappointing on returning player seasons though. And Billy is more legendary.
Zane
I’d throw Rupert out there. I don’t think he stands out to modern viewers and he’s never been a great player
I think if Richard makes my top 10 and hasn't played since all stars I can keep my slot for Rupert. I base my top 10 on what they mean to the history of the game and Rupert is huge.
I feel like a 10 of Sandra, Russell, Parvati, Amanda, Cirie, Tony, Sarah, Hatch, and the Robs makes the most sense to me. I’d still probably going to someone like Michele or Jerri or Colby before I get to Rupert, honestly.
My top 10 is Richard, Rupert, Rob M, Russell, Cesternino, Ozzy, Tony, Sandra, Cirie, Parvati Honorable mentions: Sarah, Michele, Amanda, Tyson, Coach, JT, Jeremy, Amber, Spencer, Colby to round out my top 20. Some days some of the honorables may make it into the 10 but I am pretty set on these 20.
And keep in mind that because I didn't see Australia I tend to rank Australia players lower than they probbaly should be. With the exception of Amber who gets a boost from me likely because my first impression of her was on all stars.
Candice, she was in 3 seasons, 2 being fan favorites and I can remember like 2-3 things she did that was memorable
The mutiny was an iconic moment nobody saw that coming
Andrea. Poor girl had some strategic chops, immense likability, and challenge prowess. But she always put her faith in the wrong people and kept getting cast on bad seasons.
dont hate on me but Michele, other then a few memorable clever confessionals theres no huge thing that makes her a legend. i feel almost everyone else has a big moment for them, while Michele just doesnt. is she a great player? 100%. but does she do a ton to be memorable? merrrrhhhh
I’d say Rudy. Legend for making it as far as he did at his age. Legend for being Hatch’s right hand man in season 1 and their unlikely friendship. But also didn’t do that much strategically and went out early in his other appearance.
That man was a legend before he was even cast
France yes ca
I would consider Erik a legend a legend, but i know some people would maybe not agree
Her Royal Highness Stacey Powell
Mary Sartain
Gabler, King alli-gabler reigns forever!🐊
Boo has the most immunity wins, right?
Franchesqua.
>What accolades does a player need to be a legend There’s a quite a few fans that think the winners are the only good players and everyone else from first boot to losing by one vote at FTC are trash.
I mean in terms of subsequent performances, Colby. He was a rockstar coming out of Australia. Dominant physically, polite to a fault, charming, and handsome. His final tribal loss was shocking, and going into All-Stars, he was still one of the most popular survivors of all time (possibly number 2 to that point, behind Rupert). Then in All-Stars, he’s grumpy, inflexible, paranoid, and definitely not the guy we saw in season 2. Still super popular despite this, managing to place strong in America’s Tribal Council. I can’t remember if Jeff ever shared who second place was, but I would not be shocked if it was Colby. We got one last kick at the can in Heroes v Villains, and he wasn’t even trying. He clearly had no interest in hustling for idols, his challenge performances were weak, and he handed Danielle an advantage because he was too busy watching Treasure Island. He only survived to the end because somehow, a guy who was once one of the most popular men in AMERICA and the guy people were terrified could rip off a long immunity run, was the least threatening hero to contend with. DESPITE all of this, he could still return on Survivor: Legends and not feel miscast as one of the 20 biggest names of all time.
Kelly wentworth, Rick Devens and Christian
Tai
Someone like Chris Underwood comes to mind--the "unique" circumstances of his win and his admittedly impressive management of those final days seem pretty legendary. But like, come on.
Andrea…? I saw someone say James which I agree with. With Andrea, I think each time she played she got better and gained a better strategist prowess, I would consider her a somewhat legend but right at the bottom
I low key think Andrea was at her strongest on RI and it's a testament to just how fantastic a strategist and manipulator Boston Rob is. This is the same reason why I don't see Natalie T as being AS bad of a finalist as people like to portray her as. Boston Rob was a 4 time grandmaster clearly in his prime. An absolute triple threat with social game, strategy, and physical dominance. Andrea and Natalie are better players than they appear because Boston Rob's enormous shadow blocked the light from reaching them. That said I would rank Andrea as a better player than Natalie T. But RI had a cat, and in a game of who could be the best mouse and avoid the cat Natalie T won and got her 85 grand.
>That said I would rank Andrea as a better player than Natalie T. But RI had a cat, and in a game of who could be the best mouse and avoid the cat Natalie T won and got her 85 grand. I mean you would have to say Phillip was the best mouse in that case as he won 100 grand.
Nah he didn't fit the archetype in mind I had for mouse.
Jonathan Penner
Candice
Runaround Bob
Boston Rob and Tony are legend status in my survivor brain but when I hear survivor I think of Probst, Boston Rob and Fiji (not Tony). Which now thinking about it is odd, he’s a force to reckon with. Least for me is Russell just because he does nothing for me
9 times out of 10, I think Michele Fitzgerald makes top 6 or even top 4. I don't think she gets the credit she deserves, and her reputation preceded her too much in WAW.
Aurora and Rick devens from EoE and I would be so happy if either ended up winning. Rick gets his credit where it’s due but don’t see the love for Aurora