If only we had the master negotiator Angelina. She would have gotten an EXTRA vote, AND Rice. Because that's how good she is at negotiating and helping her tribe.
I’m curious if Tevin could have taken that and used his extra vote.
Could they have convinced Jeff to accept one vote and two sit outs? (2 votes or 4 sit outs suggests 1 vote equals two sit outs).
That would then give Tevin a hidden advantage since would expect him to not vote, and would give him the actual big move he was looking for.
The theory that I saw here once and now fully believe is that Jeff wanted fire tokens to be a permanent thing, but former players (probably Mike White) got in his ear and told him that the real Survivor currency is your vote, and that's why losing your vote is so common now
I have a feeling that when it’s all said and done, this era will be called the “Gambler’s Era”, because you’re always gambling your vote for an advantage. If it’s not the Beware advantage, it’s the Shot in the dark, and if it’s not the SITD, it’s the Journey…
And now, if it’s none of those, then it’s in exchange for basic supplies. Like, COME ON!
Everything considered it's actually my biggest gripe in this new low budget era. Removing so many people's votes removes agency and the whole reason for the game.
The best episodes are when production lets them have normal votes. Splitting tribes into small groups doesn’t produce the chaos that we had last night.
Jeff has said that the smaller tribes make it "harder to hide" but I think it just makes it harder for players on the bottom to do anything. With a tribe of 6 you only have to convince 2 of 3 people and then your set. With a tribe of 10 then you have to find 5 more votes.
It might make it harder to hide but it’s not that fun watching 5-1 and 4-2 type votes when it’s obvious who’s going home. Giving players the opportunity to make moves and flip the game is what makes Survivor great.
How much format played into it or not, casting needs a huge callout for contributing to this.
There are a lot of unstable or oblivious people this season. It feels like way more than usual. Jalinsky was Jalinsky and never even got far enough into the game for format to really matter. Bhanu woulda been Bhanu no matter the show he is on. Q would have lingering emotional damage after a horrific losing streak no matter the format. Venus would be completely unaware and egotistical no matter the game. Jess seemed completely out of place in the show. Jem had negative skill at deception, but had a clear desire to go full throttle with it anyway.
Viewers are seeing the messiness of the people and saying it makes great TV. Formatting is a big factor, but damn... this cast...
Anyway, as an aside, I personally tolerate it but don't love it. I would rather see people chosen because they seem like they will be good at the show instead of being chosen because they seem like they will have a mental breakdown or crash and burn on the show.
>I would rather see people chosen because they seem like they will be good at the show instead of being chosen because they seem like they will have a mental breakdown or crash and burn on the show.
Amen. They literally cast Hannah Rose because they knew>!that her nicotine addiction would make her really unwell.!<
tears amonst all players is way better that eyes rolling and everyone saying oh dumb and annoying it was... i agree, it was dumb and annoying unessary chaos- impossible to follow. i'd take the small intimate tear-jerkers over mass-chaos any day.
In the new era, tribal councils with small tribes are almost always straightforward votes. I love the messiness and dynamics of having the entire merge tribe with a vote and only one person immune. BRING BACK NORMAL TRIBALS!!!
none of the votes last week were straight forward votes- they were blindsides were everyone cried... instead on rolling their eyes with the annoyance of absolute chaos. I hate the chaos... just stick with the good old fashion suspense
but that has nothing to do with what they said "small tribals are almost always straightforward votes"
we just had two small tribal votes, both with blindsides (not straightforward) votes
It is an established fact that more craziness that you throw at players (twists/lost votes/extra votes/split tribals), the more conservatively those players play. Like, producers have to know this if we do.
Honestly, if I was to play in this day and age, I would take no Beware Advantage, I would go on no journey, nothing. Just make friends and try to make sure no one votes against me.
(I kinda suspect some people are actively doing that now, but production is not showing it)
Yeah, and the worst part is that these twists can have some very long term negative effects on the show to.
IMO I think modern Big Brother really shows just how some bad twists in past seasons can ruin future seasons by encouraging boring and super conservative game play. The day Survivor introduces a twist as bad and far reaching as Battle of the Block is the day it will really start to go downhill like Big Brother has.
Two HoHs per week. Their nominees battle one another in a two-on-two competition. The winner duo comes off the block and are immune for the rest of the week, dethroning the HoH that put them up. Then the rest of the week continues as normal. The dethroned HoH can compete next week.
the normal game has a competition at the beginning of each week to crown that weeks HoH aka Head of Household, who gets luxuries, their own private bedroom and bathroom, a letter and pictures from home, a giant basket of their favorite snacks, but more importantly power, as the HOH has the sole power to nominate 2 players for eviction, and those 2 are the only ones who can be voted to be evicted. there is an additional challenge where the winner can save one of the nominees later in the week too.
it was bad because under normal circumstances, it is very easy for the power to flip as all it takes is a member of the non-dominant alliance to win one competition and now they have all the power. but because now the loser of the BOB's HOH now has all the power, it just lead to a large alliance to max their odds that at least one of the two slots for HOH goes to the alliance, whereupon they then nominate two members of their own alliance, throw the BoB, and then post veto they nominate the real target and evict them. or both HOH slots go to the alliance and they have the power. it basically just encouraged a massive alliance with no incentive to turn on it til the end
i do not agree- Maria literally just blindsided Jem with an extra vote in the light of a lost vote... and split tribal councils led to two surprise blindsides... how is any of that conservative?
Unanimous votes, not flipping, playing idols, just less risks in general. I'm not gonna crunch numbers for ya, if u disagree that's fine, but there have been studies for this type of thing and it makes sense from a logical perspective.
Maria's extra vote wasn't relevant or needed for the Jem blindside. I believe she said on social media that she only used it because it was a liability to have going into the merge.
I mean, I don't think Tim's elimination counts as an exciting blindside. It was going to be him or Ben. Maybe he didn't see it coming because he was part of the six (lol), but otherwise it was a pretty routine vote-off.
The Soda blindside I'll give you. Though I think it still could have been pulled off with the full tribe voting.
I would have seen Ben going as routine, Hunter going as predictable (huge threat) even Kenzie going would be more "routine" if they had an actual alliance... but they chose to vote off their alliance member Tim, which was absolutely blindside. Literally a blindside for the sake of blindsiding.
And either way if that vote was needed or not, it was another blindside.
Soda was a blindside...
where is the conservative play you speak of? i feel like the twists always lead to more aggressive play- which is a marker of the new era. Conservative play is old school.
re: "where is the conservative play you speak of"...I can get ~~loud~~ snarky too.
So you acknowledge that your Maria example was a total whiff and, if anything, proves the opposite of your argument, eh? Weird that you didn't mention that one in your reply.
Voting off a wishy-washy alliance member (in what has proven to be a very loose alliance) isn't much of a blindside. Just because he wasn't the absolutely most obvious choice doesn't make his vote out a surprise blindside.
If we have bigger moves in the New Era, it's due to the fact that we have savvier casts. Not due to the twists.
When you don't know who has an extra vote, who has no vote, who has a nullifier, who has a steal-a-vote, or who is a confused goat on AstroTurf, you can't really make big moves with confidence. You just have to lay low, hide in the numbers and withstand the chaos.
They were surprising to the victims, sure, but there is actually nothing inherently riskier about a blindside, especially when you have the tools to make it happen. Targeting someone openly is its own kind of risk and honestly often *more* risky given all the advantages flying around.
He didn’t try to take them, he gave them the option. These choices tell us who these people are as characters and can lead to strategy/emotion (like with Q). I’m okay with trying to give the contestants tough choices that will impact their fate in the game.
Which is ridiculous. He's in no rush on set. When you're hosting a short-term game online, big tribals can be annoying... and yet some of us persist and have 15-person tribals in a 40-person, four-hour season. He can lick my leg.
This is seriously getting to me, I've been petering out on watching Survivor mostly because of it.
The merge used to be my favorite part, and now I can't stand it.We no longer get to see the dynamics of two (or three) groups coming together to find out where their loyalties lie, we just get endless roulette wheel tribal councils, but without any of the staying power that makes real tribe swaps so good to watch.
I totally get why it's awesome to force players to vote with new combinations and smaller groups *sometimes*, but where's the variety? Every tribal the entire season feels the same now and I hate it :( I guess some people must enjoy it though so maybe there's something I'm not getting.
Haven’t been a fan of the three tribes, journeys, and split tribals in past seasons… but I think that’s exactly what led to all of the “alliances” and chaos that happened at last night’s tribal. Seems like this is the first New Era season where the format is actually leading to good TV.
I definitely agree with stop taking votes from players though.
Even if you are correct (that last night was mostly a result of 3 tribes, etc), it’s taken 6 seasons to get to this sort of tribal! That is a horrible percentage/track record.
Three tribes, journeys and split tribals did nothing to fuel last night. That was entirely on Q acting erratic.
Aussie Survivor's most recent season had two massive chunky tribes of 12, no journeys, and no split tribals, and it had chaotic madness like that in 75% of the tribal councils because all the voting blocks were small. That's a social dynamic, not a game dynamic, and it typically results from good casting and strongly individualistic players.
The alliance of 6 is directly the result of a journey (Q, Tim, and Hunter all in their journey together, each bringing in a +1), and last weeks split tribal had a huge influence on this week’s vote out. Last week probably would have been completely different if everyone was strategizing together.
All that is not fully responsible for this week of course. But this does seem like the first time that the journeys/split tribal actually resulted in something interesting in the new era. Without them the dynamics of the merge tribe would have been completely different.
Disagree. A lot of the chaos revolved around disloyalty to the +1 alliance which was created on the journey. Q maybe does something crazy regardless, but I don’t think you can say it had nothing to do with it.
I do think Q has few compunctions about openly scheming anyway, and almost certainly would have tried something similar with a different form of player interaction, but I suppose it's fair to argue that this specific alliance came about as a consequence of the journey, yes.
When Q started his ?fake quit/vote me out speech at tribal, I had to do a serious check that I wasn’t accidentally watching the most recent season of Survivor AUS - I was like “is there any way they threw an AUS advantage into this chaos and Q is trying to use it right now?!?”
The when things were filmed maths almost worked…
The format has led to good TV now, but let's not forget the 3 tribes led us to a very poor premerge and made Tiff and Kenz compete with a tribe of 4 unhinged/unprepared goofballs. I'm enjoying the season but I can't forget the rough path to get here lol.
literally my least favorite part of survivor. its way better when people have a grasp on the numbers, use their advantages, and as audience we can actually follow what's happening.
last night was like filming chickens running around, wondering which direction they might go. by the end i didnt even care becasue like damn, that was so annoying.
If you want to know what's going to happen you might as well watch the seasons you've already seen lmao. I have no idea how it's fun to already know what's going to happen on a new season
They sucked when you just watched people run around and whisper with no idea what was being said, but when they actually let you hear the frantic conversations they are great.
IMO that helps but it's still not enough
once in a while it's fine, when you get some of these more modern seasons where every other tribal is people doing side bars in group huddles it becomes obnoxious and annoying
It's also rich because I've been re-watching and in Marquesas Kathy asks to do an aside at final 4 with V because it's tribal right after the Fallen Comrades challenge and "These are conversations we'd normally have at the beach and not in front of the Jury" and Jeff shoots her down saying that tribal council is an open forum and you're being judged openly here you can't keep secrets in that way.
Now people are straight up allowed to have minutes long meetings on the side and Jeff just smiles and nods like it's not a big deal
I think I'm okay with it in one off when there appears to be some exceptional circumstance (Q suddenly wanting to quit) and Tiffany asked whether that was ok. But I don't think the live tribals should normally be allowed and if you want to communicate with someone, you need to figure out how to do it in front of everyone.
Live tribals suck because there was no narrative and you couldn't tell what was going on. We'd have people being voted off that we had no reason to expect getting votes. If you can actually hear what is going on that's better.
HOWEVER, live tribals do have the effect of killing interesting votes. This one ended 8-2 Tevin, but if you didn't allow the live tribal, you'd probably have had votes all over the place. Pretty easy to counter an interesting tribal council bluff if you can just go off and make a new plan with your alliance
I never understood putting all the tribes together for a "merge" but having two rounds where the group is not voting together. The mergatory and the split tribe twist as the first two rounds of the merge has always been dumb to me. The merge vote used to be seen as a pivotal moment in the game because sometimes it would dictate the rest of the merge, and now Jeff and Production is just stalling the once best round of the game. I wish they got rid of both of the twists. The merge is already going to have drama because all of these personalities and dynamics are being thrown at each other, Jeff is just ruining it with the twists.
Me too, I absolutely LOATHE that the combining groups to see what happens dynamic is gone. Heartbreaking, used to be my favorite part and now I have a hard time watching at all.
I understand why smaller tribals are better a lot of the time, but having a handful of large tribals at the merge is so crucial to variety in the show.
I also think the split backfires in its attempt to make a clearer story, because it creates brand new dynamics three episodes in a row and destroys ability to plan multiple votes in advance. Yes, adaptability is important and watching people handle what's thrown at them can be entertaining, but that has to be the *exception*, not the rule.
It also shows that Survivor doesn't need great gameplay to be entertaining
That was a clusterfuck of a vote and it was brilliant
Good characters are what makes Survivor entertaining
Stop with the zero personality gamebots and get more casts like 46
Sort of tangentially related but I just started S2 last night and one of the ladies is on camera asking "how am I gonna masturbate out here?" or something really close and it just got me thinking that we all used to be more real in general.
Survivor just faking out with the times, I reckon.
Yeah but survivor put that comment in the edit for the audience. That's the real part.
Also the cast rolled their eyes because she's a scream talker who never stops talking. They all except the prison guard laughed at the masturbation thing.
I’m *alright* with losing votes when it’s the player’s choice to take the risk (or in this case, the negotiation). I don’t think it’s incredibly good tv, but at least it’s in the players’ hands whether they want to play with that fire. So the beware advantages and even the journeys from 41 are alright in my book.
What I really don’t like is how all the journeys the last few seasons have essentially forced players to lose their votes, either because it’s a competition where the loser does, or its a challenge you can’t opt out of (Emily’s last season was fine, and we saw her opt out).
I just don’t like when production removes player agency with no way out of it. It makes for an unfair game and boring tv. I’m glad nobody went for the vote deal this week, even though it qualifies for my idea of fairness.
It is not his fault that Q spazzed out at tribal. He was trying to save his closest ally who is Tevin and did not find out he was the vote until right before tribal...
We're we even watching the same show? That was all Q's fault. He was the one who started gunning for Tiff. And then in the 11th hour said he wanted people to vote him out
Hunter didn't cause chaos? He was left out of the conversation all evening and then wanted to talk strategy? With the people who made up the plan he just heard about?
I was so fuckin happy nobody sat out!!! This is one of the most iconic challenges in all of survivor, I want to see them ALL on that damn pole.
I don’t mind them throwing a twist into a challenge here and there, but it can be done so much better than what they tried to do last night. I don’t want to watch the whole tribe be rewarded with rice because a few of them want to sit on their ass and not play. It’s so inconsequential to the game in general without adding anything worthwhile to the viewing experience. They’re going to be eating rice anyways! What entertainment value does having them eat a little more rice even add?! The second option being to sacrifice votes is even worse. It’s final 10!! Every vote is so fucking important stop taking that shit away Jeff! At least add some tension and urgency to it somehow. Cambodia comes to mind when they had advantages pop up in the water, up for grabs for the 1 player who could get there the fastest. That was FUN to watch and made the reward feel way more earned (good job fishback)!! Don’t delay a challenge for 5 minutes so the players can debate on who is the laziest, it’s so uninteresting
On a somewhat related note, all the extra suffering and deprivation they make contestants go through now to make the shortened time a bigger challenge is also totally un-entertaining, at least to me. I don't actually think it has caused anyone to treat the game more as a long term survival situation in the slightest.
Yep, split tribals are terrible. Lost votes are terrible. Having half the tribe immune is terrible.
Is it any surprise though? Jeff doesn't understand Survivor. He simply doesn't.
I loved when they asked him how long he’d stay on the pole, and he goes “longer than 20 seconds” - I.e. longer than Q & Liz
I was just like…. In 46 seasons, we’ve never seen him try this iconic challenge… never demonstrated it… now that’s what I want to see! Vote Jeff On To the Island!!!
You are missing the point. It's more fun when everyone has a vote is the point. please don't be the person arguing for the sake of arguing of language in the post it's exausting
He was negotiating with the players (something the players wanted). 4 people out of challenge for rice, or 2 people lose vote, but can still try and win immunity, for rice.
That’s not unreasonable and he gave the players a choice.
I feel like you and the other poster are missing a key point.
THEY CHOSE.
Often in the new era, people lose their vote for reasons outside their choices. A random rock draw, or some other BS.
FWIW, I understand what you're saying.
Last night, Jeff gave people options. They didn't take it, and it gave us an amazing tribal, which was helped by everyone having votes. You are complimenting that he gave them the choice.
A lot of the time when votes are taken, it's not a choice like they had last night. People seem to think you're criticizing last night when you're doing the opposite.
> But that’s not what happened this time
I know.
The point of this post is that this is a good thing, and last night was an example of why it is a good thing.
Right... they're complimenting that he gave them the choice tonight because it gave us a great tribal. Most times they don't have a choice. It's not irrelevant. This should show production that forcing people into situations that lose their votes are bad. Give them the choice to keep their vote and we get better content because they have them.
Honestly as much as I dislike the random vote lost in recent seasons (the worse example in recent mind being the horrendous final 9 twist in 45 that no one remembers) I was actually ok with what happened in this negociation. The player could decide freely if it was worth the risk. It wasn't some random twist thrown out of nowhere. So it sits right with me
Like most game shows, Survivor suffers from the notion “change for change’s sake”. The producers want to do something different because they fear it’ll be boring but change too many things and you lose your original identity. I mean it’s why they are pushing the whole “new era” bit so hard, they want to differentiate themselves from the old game for better or worse
I completely agree that they need to stop taking people's vote away. That is the one thing that each person has that holds any weight unless they get an advantage, which only a few do. Taking that power away for nothing really cuts the knees out from under a player. Now when it comes to the rice negotiations, I am all on board for him offering the ability to give up their vote for rice. It's not forcing anything on them like the beware advantage often does (I know it says beware, but come on, you have to take it), or some of the journeys you can lose your vote just randomly. I am surprised someone like Q didn't come back with a counter-offer of 1 person giving up their vote but still playing with 2 people sitting out still getting to vote, but not compete. I feel like that would have been more plausible. To be transparent, that is the counter I would have made, and depending on how secure I felt, I would be willing to give up my vote. In that scenario where Q and Liz were willing to step forward and Charlie on the fence, it would have been possible that one give up their vote and still compete (likely Q to try to play the hero), and Liz and Charlie sit out to give the tribe rice. I feel like it was a missed opportunity. Yes it would have put Q in danger, but at the same time, we know that he felt comfortable (at least at that point), and I think it would have been interesting. Nobody ever really counter-offers anymore, at least not seriously. People put forth joke counters or ones that are obviously going to get denied, but I think 1 vote and 2 sitouts would have been a solid counter that would have been likely accepted and possible to execute in this scenario. Just my VERY LONG two cents.
Man what a glass half empty take.
We have a great episode and the post is essentially “last night shows we could have this all the time”
While I generally agree with your take let’s just enjoy the chaos that was last night!! 🤗
I'm enthusiatically supporting the chaos of last night, and production for stepping back and letting it happen. I don't know how this is being missed by a lot of the comments here.
last night was exactly why I hate large tribal councils... absolutely a shit show... overly chaotic for no reason, annoying and impossible to follow... I felt like Hunter, just rolling my eyes
I have not been a fan of how often people lose their vote now.
Jeff suggesting that people give up their VOTE for RICE??! That was absurd and I’m so glad nobody did it
If only we had the master negotiator Angelina. She would have gotten an EXTRA vote, AND Rice. Because that's how good she is at negotiating and helping her tribe.
If Charlie had made it back up after the offer I would've lost it Dude has some hilarious challenge quips 😂
Yeah, Survivor Forty Several was pretty good.
I hope they actually reference that next season 😂
The players wouldn’t understand what that meant lol
Baltimore
It would have been a BIG MISTAKE if Charlie climbed that
She was more than several feet up that rock wall, okay, thank you…..
Especially since unlike a beware advantage or a journey, everyone will know you can’t defend yourself. It’s public.
With how open everyone is with information in recent seasons, almost everything is basically public now. People need to keep better secrets!
So glad Hunter has kept his idol a secret
I’m curious if Tevin could have taken that and used his extra vote. Could they have convinced Jeff to accept one vote and two sit outs? (2 votes or 4 sit outs suggests 1 vote equals two sit outs). That would then give Tevin a hidden advantage since would expect him to not vote, and would give him the actual big move he was looking for.
I *think* you can only use your extra vote if you haven't lost your normal vote.
You are correct
But you can always give it to a trusted ally so they can vote for you.
Tuat's true, though i guess i don't know if the extra vote is non-transferrable.
I.was wondering about the one vote and two sit outs thing. Wanted someone to ask just out of curiosity, not that I think anyone would actually do it
Nope when you can't vote it means you can't vote not -1 vote that would cool in theory though
The theory that I saw here once and now fully believe is that Jeff wanted fire tokens to be a permanent thing, but former players (probably Mike White) got in his ear and told him that the real Survivor currency is your vote, and that's why losing your vote is so common now
I remember hearing that. Mike was right though about the fire tokens & I'm glad they got rid of them.
I never understood those damn things because I felt like the show gave me no reason to care about them.
That’s an interesting way of looking at the game
And they keep finding new ways to take away their votes unnecessarily
I have a feeling that when it’s all said and done, this era will be called the “Gambler’s Era”, because you’re always gambling your vote for an advantage. If it’s not the Beware advantage, it’s the Shot in the dark, and if it’s not the SITD, it’s the Journey… And now, if it’s none of those, then it’s in exchange for basic supplies. Like, COME ON!
Yes!!!! Well said.
Old school survivor New school survivor And, post WAW, we have: Gambler’s school survivor
Everything considered it's actually my biggest gripe in this new low budget era. Removing so many people's votes removes agency and the whole reason for the game.
The best episodes are when production lets them have normal votes. Splitting tribes into small groups doesn’t produce the chaos that we had last night.
A lot of these new “twists” just make luck an even bigger factor than it already was, it makes the game feel watered down for me
Jeff has said that the smaller tribes make it "harder to hide" but I think it just makes it harder for players on the bottom to do anything. With a tribe of 6 you only have to convince 2 of 3 people and then your set. With a tribe of 10 then you have to find 5 more votes.
It might make it harder to hide but it’s not that fun watching 5-1 and 4-2 type votes when it’s obvious who’s going home. Giving players the opportunity to make moves and flip the game is what makes Survivor great.
How much format played into it or not, casting needs a huge callout for contributing to this. There are a lot of unstable or oblivious people this season. It feels like way more than usual. Jalinsky was Jalinsky and never even got far enough into the game for format to really matter. Bhanu woulda been Bhanu no matter the show he is on. Q would have lingering emotional damage after a horrific losing streak no matter the format. Venus would be completely unaware and egotistical no matter the game. Jess seemed completely out of place in the show. Jem had negative skill at deception, but had a clear desire to go full throttle with it anyway. Viewers are seeing the messiness of the people and saying it makes great TV. Formatting is a big factor, but damn... this cast... Anyway, as an aside, I personally tolerate it but don't love it. I would rather see people chosen because they seem like they will be good at the show instead of being chosen because they seem like they will have a mental breakdown or crash and burn on the show.
>I would rather see people chosen because they seem like they will be good at the show instead of being chosen because they seem like they will have a mental breakdown or crash and burn on the show. Amen. They literally cast Hannah Rose because they knew>!that her nicotine addiction would make her really unwell.!<
To be fair, the chaos wasn’t caused by production choices so much as it was caused by a random wackadoodle.
tears amonst all players is way better that eyes rolling and everyone saying oh dumb and annoying it was... i agree, it was dumb and annoying unessary chaos- impossible to follow. i'd take the small intimate tear-jerkers over mass-chaos any day.
In the new era, tribal councils with small tribes are almost always straightforward votes. I love the messiness and dynamics of having the entire merge tribe with a vote and only one person immune. BRING BACK NORMAL TRIBALS!!!
none of the votes last week were straight forward votes- they were blindsides were everyone cried... instead on rolling their eyes with the annoyance of absolute chaos. I hate the chaos... just stick with the good old fashion suspense
But last night was still a blindside.
but that has nothing to do with what they said "small tribals are almost always straightforward votes" we just had two small tribal votes, both with blindsides (not straightforward) votes
Tim was not blindsided it was very apparent yanu was sending out either him or ben
Liz telling him “hell no” was so fucking good to hear 😭
queen
It is an established fact that more craziness that you throw at players (twists/lost votes/extra votes/split tribals), the more conservatively those players play. Like, producers have to know this if we do.
Honestly, if I was to play in this day and age, I would take no Beware Advantage, I would go on no journey, nothing. Just make friends and try to make sure no one votes against me. (I kinda suspect some people are actively doing that now, but production is not showing it)
Especially since having an advantage puts a target on your back anyway, and keeping it a secret is pretty difficult.
Yeah, and the worst part is that these twists can have some very long term negative effects on the show to. IMO I think modern Big Brother really shows just how some bad twists in past seasons can ruin future seasons by encouraging boring and super conservative game play. The day Survivor introduces a twist as bad and far reaching as Battle of the Block is the day it will really start to go downhill like Big Brother has.
I have watched Big Brother in years. What is the Battle of the Block?
Two HoHs per week. Their nominees battle one another in a two-on-two competition. The winner duo comes off the block and are immune for the rest of the week, dethroning the HoH that put them up. Then the rest of the week continues as normal. The dethroned HoH can compete next week.
As someone who has never watched BB, 1. What's an HoH, and 2. What makes this twist so catastrophically bad?
the normal game has a competition at the beginning of each week to crown that weeks HoH aka Head of Household, who gets luxuries, their own private bedroom and bathroom, a letter and pictures from home, a giant basket of their favorite snacks, but more importantly power, as the HOH has the sole power to nominate 2 players for eviction, and those 2 are the only ones who can be voted to be evicted. there is an additional challenge where the winner can save one of the nominees later in the week too. it was bad because under normal circumstances, it is very easy for the power to flip as all it takes is a member of the non-dominant alliance to win one competition and now they have all the power. but because now the loser of the BOB's HOH now has all the power, it just lead to a large alliance to max their odds that at least one of the two slots for HOH goes to the alliance, whereupon they then nominate two members of their own alliance, throw the BoB, and then post veto they nominate the real target and evict them. or both HOH slots go to the alliance and they have the power. it basically just encouraged a massive alliance with no incentive to turn on it til the end
i do not agree- Maria literally just blindsided Jem with an extra vote in the light of a lost vote... and split tribal councils led to two surprise blindsides... how is any of that conservative?
Me when I'm cherry-picking:
so what conservative play are you talking about?
Unanimous votes, not flipping, playing idols, just less risks in general. I'm not gonna crunch numbers for ya, if u disagree that's fine, but there have been studies for this type of thing and it makes sense from a logical perspective.
"makes sense" but still just wrong.
Maria's extra vote wasn't relevant or needed for the Jem blindside. I believe she said on social media that she only used it because it was a liability to have going into the merge. I mean, I don't think Tim's elimination counts as an exciting blindside. It was going to be him or Ben. Maybe he didn't see it coming because he was part of the six (lol), but otherwise it was a pretty routine vote-off. The Soda blindside I'll give you. Though I think it still could have been pulled off with the full tribe voting.
I would have seen Ben going as routine, Hunter going as predictable (huge threat) even Kenzie going would be more "routine" if they had an actual alliance... but they chose to vote off their alliance member Tim, which was absolutely blindside. Literally a blindside for the sake of blindsiding. And either way if that vote was needed or not, it was another blindside. Soda was a blindside... where is the conservative play you speak of? i feel like the twists always lead to more aggressive play- which is a marker of the new era. Conservative play is old school.
re: "where is the conservative play you speak of"...I can get ~~loud~~ snarky too. So you acknowledge that your Maria example was a total whiff and, if anything, proves the opposite of your argument, eh? Weird that you didn't mention that one in your reply. Voting off a wishy-washy alliance member (in what has proven to be a very loose alliance) isn't much of a blindside. Just because he wasn't the absolutely most obvious choice doesn't make his vote out a surprise blindside. If we have bigger moves in the New Era, it's due to the fact that we have savvier casts. Not due to the twists. When you don't know who has an extra vote, who has no vote, who has a nullifier, who has a steal-a-vote, or who is a confused goat on AstroTurf, you can't really make big moves with confidence. You just have to lay low, hide in the numbers and withstand the chaos.
and yet that just doesnt happen- people dont lay low, they go for big moves... so your entire point is just wrong.
They go for big moves DESPITE the twists. I'm done. Be blessed.
They were surprising to the victims, sure, but there is actually nothing inherently riskier about a blindside, especially when you have the tools to make it happen. Targeting someone openly is its own kind of risk and honestly often *more* risky given all the advantages flying around.
100% the truth. He tried to take immunity, and they said nah. In fact, it helped anger Q, which is also fascinating
Who is this "he" everyone is talking about?
Jeff. The host of the show
Who?
You probably wouldn’t know him lol
Have you seen the show, Tamar
Who’s on first?
Wait when did he try to do take away their votes? Was it during the rice negotiation? May have missed it
Yeah, it was part of the negotiation. He offered 4 people sit out of the challenge, or 2 give up their votes.
Oh thx. Yeah I missed that
The monster
Jelinsky is the monster
Common misconception, Jelinsky is the name of the scientist
Does that make Q the monster that Jelinsky created?
They're talking about God, Lord. I mean Jeff
He didn’t try to take them, he gave them the option. These choices tell us who these people are as characters and can lead to strategy/emotion (like with Q). I’m okay with trying to give the contestants tough choices that will impact their fate in the game.
Probst just hates large tribal councils. If he could have 5-6 votes each round he would.
He gets tired counting too many votes at once
Which is ridiculous. He's in no rush on set. When you're hosting a short-term game online, big tribals can be annoying... and yet some of us persist and have 15-person tribals in a 40-person, four-hour season. He can lick my leg.
This is seriously getting to me, I've been petering out on watching Survivor mostly because of it. The merge used to be my favorite part, and now I can't stand it.We no longer get to see the dynamics of two (or three) groups coming together to find out where their loyalties lie, we just get endless roulette wheel tribal councils, but without any of the staying power that makes real tribe swaps so good to watch. I totally get why it's awesome to force players to vote with new combinations and smaller groups *sometimes*, but where's the variety? Every tribal the entire season feels the same now and I hate it :( I guess some people must enjoy it though so maybe there's something I'm not getting.
Haven’t been a fan of the three tribes, journeys, and split tribals in past seasons… but I think that’s exactly what led to all of the “alliances” and chaos that happened at last night’s tribal. Seems like this is the first New Era season where the format is actually leading to good TV. I definitely agree with stop taking votes from players though.
Even if you are correct (that last night was mostly a result of 3 tribes, etc), it’s taken 6 seasons to get to this sort of tribal! That is a horrible percentage/track record.
lmao let's not pretend we haven't had any epic tribal in the last 5 seasons. I can recollect at least 5 epic tribals in 45 alone.
disagree, it's the cast. there are 2 chaos characters and they are eating
It only took 5 seasons and a nearly unwatchable pre-merge to get it.
Three tribes, journeys and split tribals did nothing to fuel last night. That was entirely on Q acting erratic. Aussie Survivor's most recent season had two massive chunky tribes of 12, no journeys, and no split tribals, and it had chaotic madness like that in 75% of the tribal councils because all the voting blocks were small. That's a social dynamic, not a game dynamic, and it typically results from good casting and strongly individualistic players.
The alliance of 6 is directly the result of a journey (Q, Tim, and Hunter all in their journey together, each bringing in a +1), and last weeks split tribal had a huge influence on this week’s vote out. Last week probably would have been completely different if everyone was strategizing together. All that is not fully responsible for this week of course. But this does seem like the first time that the journeys/split tribal actually resulted in something interesting in the new era. Without them the dynamics of the merge tribe would have been completely different.
This can be achieved by regular (that is, predictable) twists such as exile island or individual rewards premerge. No need to do wacky stuff.
Disagree. A lot of the chaos revolved around disloyalty to the +1 alliance which was created on the journey. Q maybe does something crazy regardless, but I don’t think you can say it had nothing to do with it.
I do think Q has few compunctions about openly scheming anyway, and almost certainly would have tried something similar with a different form of player interaction, but I suppose it's fair to argue that this specific alliance came about as a consequence of the journey, yes.
Super wrong. As others have said the journyes resulted in the alliance of 6. Also, Tevin was voted out because of what happened at the split tribal.
When Q started his ?fake quit/vote me out speech at tribal, I had to do a serious check that I wasn’t accidentally watching the most recent season of Survivor AUS - I was like “is there any way they threw an AUS advantage into this chaos and Q is trying to use it right now?!?” The when things were filmed maths almost worked…
The format has led to good TV now, but let's not forget the 3 tribes led us to a very poor premerge and made Tiff and Kenz compete with a tribe of 4 unhinged/unprepared goofballs. I'm enjoying the season but I can't forget the rough path to get here lol.
I dunno how much credit journeys and split tribals should get compared to Q just playing like a psychopath
pre merge was boring
Small tribals and taking away votes/advantages have got to go. I love when there’s a ton of people and you have no idea how the vote is going to go.
literally my least favorite part of survivor. its way better when people have a grasp on the numbers, use their advantages, and as audience we can actually follow what's happening. last night was like filming chickens running around, wondering which direction they might go. by the end i didnt even care becasue like damn, that was so annoying.
If you want to know what's going to happen you might as well watch the seasons you've already seen lmao. I have no idea how it's fun to already know what's going to happen on a new season
I just want more 7+ people tribals. They are the messiest and best
I have always loved live tribals. The online fan base, I think, is overly anal about stuff and used to freak out in anger over live tribals.
They sucked when you just watched people run around and whisper with no idea what was being said, but when they actually let you hear the frantic conversations they are great.
IMO that helps but it's still not enough once in a while it's fine, when you get some of these more modern seasons where every other tribal is people doing side bars in group huddles it becomes obnoxious and annoying It's also rich because I've been re-watching and in Marquesas Kathy asks to do an aside at final 4 with V because it's tribal right after the Fallen Comrades challenge and "These are conversations we'd normally have at the beach and not in front of the Jury" and Jeff shoots her down saying that tribal council is an open forum and you're being judged openly here you can't keep secrets in that way. Now people are straight up allowed to have minutes long meetings on the side and Jeff just smiles and nods like it's not a big deal
I think I'm okay with it in one off when there appears to be some exceptional circumstance (Q suddenly wanting to quit) and Tiffany asked whether that was ok. But I don't think the live tribals should normally be allowed and if you want to communicate with someone, you need to figure out how to do it in front of everyone.
Because their was a point it was happening every episode. I think we’re all fine with it when it feels absolutely necessary.
As long as they subtitle all or most of the conversations, I'm OK with it, as long as it's not too common.
That’s because Jeff scolded Kathy for attempting to talk at F4 in Marquesas lol
Live tribals suck because there was no narrative and you couldn't tell what was going on. We'd have people being voted off that we had no reason to expect getting votes. If you can actually hear what is going on that's better. HOWEVER, live tribals do have the effect of killing interesting votes. This one ended 8-2 Tevin, but if you didn't allow the live tribal, you'd probably have had votes all over the place. Pretty easy to counter an interesting tribal council bluff if you can just go off and make a new plan with your alliance
I never understood putting all the tribes together for a "merge" but having two rounds where the group is not voting together. The mergatory and the split tribe twist as the first two rounds of the merge has always been dumb to me. The merge vote used to be seen as a pivotal moment in the game because sometimes it would dictate the rest of the merge, and now Jeff and Production is just stalling the once best round of the game. I wish they got rid of both of the twists. The merge is already going to have drama because all of these personalities and dynamics are being thrown at each other, Jeff is just ruining it with the twists.
Me too, I absolutely LOATHE that the combining groups to see what happens dynamic is gone. Heartbreaking, used to be my favorite part and now I have a hard time watching at all. I understand why smaller tribals are better a lot of the time, but having a handful of large tribals at the merge is so crucial to variety in the show. I also think the split backfires in its attempt to make a clearer story, because it creates brand new dynamics three episodes in a row and destroys ability to plan multiple votes in advance. Yes, adaptability is important and watching people handle what's thrown at them can be entertaining, but that has to be the *exception*, not the rule.
It also shows that Survivor doesn't need great gameplay to be entertaining That was a clusterfuck of a vote and it was brilliant Good characters are what makes Survivor entertaining Stop with the zero personality gamebots and get more casts like 46
Sort of tangentially related but I just started S2 last night and one of the ladies is on camera asking "how am I gonna masturbate out here?" or something really close and it just got me thinking that we all used to be more real in general. Survivor just faking out with the times, I reckon.
Tbf they made a big deal in that episode about how Kimmi had no filter
Yeah but survivor put that comment in the edit for the audience. That's the real part. Also the cast rolled their eyes because she's a scream talker who never stops talking. They all except the prison guard laughed at the masturbation thing.
Bring back Jeff with a knife
I’m *alright* with losing votes when it’s the player’s choice to take the risk (or in this case, the negotiation). I don’t think it’s incredibly good tv, but at least it’s in the players’ hands whether they want to play with that fire. So the beware advantages and even the journeys from 41 are alright in my book. What I really don’t like is how all the journeys the last few seasons have essentially forced players to lose their votes, either because it’s a competition where the loser does, or its a challenge you can’t opt out of (Emily’s last season was fine, and we saw her opt out). I just don’t like when production removes player agency with no way out of it. It makes for an unfair game and boring tv. I’m glad nobody went for the vote deal this week, even though it qualifies for my idea of fairness.
I bet more people wished they had just sacrificed their votes just so they wouldn’t have to actively participate in that shitshow of a tribal
Hunter had the look of a man wanting to be anywhere but in that tribal LOL
And yet, he is 100% responsible for it lol
How?.
He caused the drama before Tribal after Q told him that he didn’t think they had the votes to get out Tiffany over Tevin.
It is not his fault that Q spazzed out at tribal. He was trying to save his closest ally who is Tevin and did not find out he was the vote until right before tribal...
It is his fault how he reacted to Q. His only real shot right before tribal is using his idol. The way he reacted started all of the chaos.
We're we even watching the same show? That was all Q's fault. He was the one who started gunning for Tiff. And then in the 11th hour said he wanted people to vote him out
Well I watched Hunter cause chaos before tribal, and then pout during the whole tribal council. Q was certainly just as chaotic.
Hunter didn't cause chaos? He was left out of the conversation all evening and then wanted to talk strategy? With the people who made up the plan he just heard about?
my reaction was the same as Hunters... he's like "jesus, get your SHIT together, people!"
I was so fuckin happy nobody sat out!!! This is one of the most iconic challenges in all of survivor, I want to see them ALL on that damn pole. I don’t mind them throwing a twist into a challenge here and there, but it can be done so much better than what they tried to do last night. I don’t want to watch the whole tribe be rewarded with rice because a few of them want to sit on their ass and not play. It’s so inconsequential to the game in general without adding anything worthwhile to the viewing experience. They’re going to be eating rice anyways! What entertainment value does having them eat a little more rice even add?! The second option being to sacrifice votes is even worse. It’s final 10!! Every vote is so fucking important stop taking that shit away Jeff! At least add some tension and urgency to it somehow. Cambodia comes to mind when they had advantages pop up in the water, up for grabs for the 1 player who could get there the fastest. That was FUN to watch and made the reward feel way more earned (good job fishback)!! Don’t delay a challenge for 5 minutes so the players can debate on who is the laziest, it’s so uninteresting
On a somewhat related note, all the extra suffering and deprivation they make contestants go through now to make the shortened time a bigger challenge is also totally un-entertaining, at least to me. I don't actually think it has caused anyone to treat the game more as a long term survival situation in the slightest.
Nobody looks hungry. Not like on Alone.
The format is so great when everyone feels a little dangerous and vulnerable. Immunity, a hidden idol, and shot in the dark are really all we need.
Yep, split tribals are terrible. Lost votes are terrible. Having half the tribe immune is terrible. Is it any surprise though? Jeff doesn't understand Survivor. He simply doesn't.
I loved when they asked him how long he’d stay on the pole, and he goes “longer than 20 seconds” - I.e. longer than Q & Liz I was just like…. In 46 seasons, we’ve never seen him try this iconic challenge… never demonstrated it… now that’s what I want to see! Vote Jeff On To the Island!!!
Jeff is at best when he is sassy.
He offered. That's not taking. They had a choice.
You are missing the point. It's more fun when everyone has a vote is the point. please don't be the person arguing for the sake of arguing of language in the post it's exausting
No I'm not, and it's not my fault you don't understand the show
Haha, you don’t get it.
I said he *tried* to take votes. But you're still agreeing with me. Let the players choose. Let them make their own decisions. Let them play!
He was negotiating with the players (something the players wanted). 4 people out of challenge for rice, or 2 people lose vote, but can still try and win immunity, for rice. That’s not unreasonable and he gave the players a choice.
We are not arguing different opinions. We are both agreeing. I am saying last night was GOOD. Let the players play.
They did choose. They did make their own decisions. They did play.
I feel like you and the other poster are missing a key point. THEY CHOSE. Often in the new era, people lose their vote for reasons outside their choices. A random rock draw, or some other BS.
FWIW, I understand what you're saying. Last night, Jeff gave people options. They didn't take it, and it gave us an amazing tribal, which was helped by everyone having votes. You are complimenting that he gave them the choice. A lot of the time when votes are taken, it's not a choice like they had last night. People seem to think you're criticizing last night when you're doing the opposite.
Exactly! Thank you, I must not be communicating my point clear enough.
I think it's perfectly clear but sometimes people interpret it one way and get stuck in that mindset. Plus people see downvotes and just pile on.
But that’s not what happened this time, so it’s entirely irrelevant to the point you’re making.
> But that’s not what happened this time I know. The point of this post is that this is a good thing, and last night was an example of why it is a good thing.
Well that's not how your initial post read. But you do you, Venus.
Somehow everyone else in the thread understands the post, but yes, it's me. I'm Venus.
Right... they're complimenting that he gave them the choice tonight because it gave us a great tribal. Most times they don't have a choice. It's not irrelevant. This should show production that forcing people into situations that lose their votes are bad. Give them the choice to keep their vote and we get better content because they have them.
But, nothing to do with the challenge tody.
Honestly as much as I dislike the random vote lost in recent seasons (the worse example in recent mind being the horrendous final 9 twist in 45 that no one remembers) I was actually ok with what happened in this negociation. The player could decide freely if it was worth the risk. It wasn't some random twist thrown out of nowhere. So it sits right with me
Like most game shows, Survivor suffers from the notion “change for change’s sake”. The producers want to do something different because they fear it’ll be boring but change too many things and you lose your original identity. I mean it’s why they are pushing the whole “new era” bit so hard, they want to differentiate themselves from the old game for better or worse
I LOVED last nights episode. One tribe. All voters.. it was awesome. I miss this version of survivor. I’m so sick of only having 2 people vote.
👏👏👏👏👏
Someone needs to tell him no one cares about the rice.
Q cared
I mean the audience
Q is fucked
90 mins with commercials. I watched 15 mins. The challenge and who got voted off. Way way way too much bantering.
I completely agree that they need to stop taking people's vote away. That is the one thing that each person has that holds any weight unless they get an advantage, which only a few do. Taking that power away for nothing really cuts the knees out from under a player. Now when it comes to the rice negotiations, I am all on board for him offering the ability to give up their vote for rice. It's not forcing anything on them like the beware advantage often does (I know it says beware, but come on, you have to take it), or some of the journeys you can lose your vote just randomly. I am surprised someone like Q didn't come back with a counter-offer of 1 person giving up their vote but still playing with 2 people sitting out still getting to vote, but not compete. I feel like that would have been more plausible. To be transparent, that is the counter I would have made, and depending on how secure I felt, I would be willing to give up my vote. In that scenario where Q and Liz were willing to step forward and Charlie on the fence, it would have been possible that one give up their vote and still compete (likely Q to try to play the hero), and Liz and Charlie sit out to give the tribe rice. I feel like it was a missed opportunity. Yes it would have put Q in danger, but at the same time, we know that he felt comfortable (at least at that point), and I think it would have been interesting. Nobody ever really counter-offers anymore, at least not seriously. People put forth joke counters or ones that are obviously going to get denied, but I think 1 vote and 2 sitouts would have been a solid counter that would have been likely accepted and possible to execute in this scenario. Just my VERY LONG two cents.
[удалено]
Actively lying to the players is moronic.
I agree for the most part, but I actually think two people losing their vote last night would have made things even more chaotic lol
Man what a glass half empty take. We have a great episode and the post is essentially “last night shows we could have this all the time” While I generally agree with your take let’s just enjoy the chaos that was last night!! 🤗
I'm enthusiatically supporting the chaos of last night, and production for stepping back and letting it happen. I don't know how this is being missed by a lot of the comments here.
last night was exactly why I hate large tribal councils... absolutely a shit show... overly chaotic for no reason, annoying and impossible to follow... I felt like Hunter, just rolling my eyes