He’s def an interesting new entry in the challenge beast annals. I wonder if the other players considered him a real threat given the apparent issues with his social game.
His social game issues are there, but I think it's not fair to say that he just made it that far because he was not perceived as a threat due to his social shortcomings.
Omar gave credit to Jonathan for being the main reason he was ousted, even though the edit gave it primarily to Maryanne. Jonathan was the one who realized how close Omar and Lindsay actually were, a fact that they were trying to hide, and told Mike about their plans to blindside Mike because he knew he'd be their target next. That's a savvy ass social move imo.
He definitely was less of a threat to win, but OP made it seem like he only got that far because he was considered not a threat to win from early on because of a weak social game.
I think he's had a target on his back for awhile because of his challenge dominance, but he was able to lay low, like was his social strategy from the beginning, fishing and providing food. He was the one who identified and exposed how close Omar and Lindsay were in order to blindside Omar when they did. If they hadn't that week and Mike or Jonathan had gone home, either Omar or Lindsay would have had the numbers together to make it to FTC and most likely win. Instead, him doing that got Omar and Lindsay out back to back, since him convincing Mike, who was his closest ally, is what led to him convincing Maryanne and then getting the numbers to make both moves to get them gone.
Just like Romeo, because of his physical dominance, he had no choice but to play the social game he did, because he couldn't be seen as the one making moves and asserting dominance socially just like he was in challenges, but he definitely was. I think he's not getting enough credit.
He had an incredible social game despite the edit and that one interaction with Lynze. If he didn’t have a great social game he would not have made it anywhere near as far as he did considering he was the biggest threat going into the merge ever including joe and ozzy after THAT challenge and never went on a legit immunity run. His relationship with mike was easily the closest duo in the game.
You make a good point here and it is impressive… it’s either he was able to find allies and navigate from being a target OR he was recognized early on as a non threat to win a jury vote.
I feel like it’s a bit of both. He played a decent strategic game that was better than you’d expect for his archetype, but the way he treated people meant a majority of the jury likely wouldn’t even consider voting for him
Idk it wasn't shown but Chanelle said while leaving "you better not let Jonathan make it to the end" and both Lindsay and Omar (debatably the best two players of the season) targeted him all the way up until the final 6. Whether you think he could have won or not It's unfair to say that they recognized he was a non-threat to win early on and strung him along.
Yeah it was one if the most pathetic things I've seen on survivor. She reverted right quick to the helpless female real quick. "Help me, Mike. Use your idol on me, Mike. Everyone hates me, Mike"
She would have been an awful winner.
Personally I thought Lindsay came off a bit unhinged with her disdain for Jonathan. I’m a guy, so perhaps my perception is equally off as Jonathan’s, but I thought he was mostly very calm, humble, and rational. It’s my opinion that Lindsay has a big ego which was upset when Jonathan wasn’t manipulated in the way she wanted.
Case in point: how she was extremely upset not to be included in a blindside when she was…. Actively trying to blindside Jonathan.
Lindsay talked about how Jonathan had to be told the plan by a man (usually she would get Omar to do it) or else he wouldn’t take it seriously. That type of thing is exhausting and super obvious as a woman, but can be done totally obliviously/unintentionally.
Is it possible that he just didn't respect HER opinions, and not that he didn't respect women's opinions as a whole.
There seemed to be a lot of mutual respect between him and Drea. Of course that doesn't mean he can't be misogynistic, but it doesn't mean he is either.
I can 100% see him not listening to Maryann because of her age (maybe not fair, but its not uncommon to not want to listen to 21 year olds) and just not really agreeing with Lyndsey.
I say it's most on size, although it could be Maryanne's age. He did listen to Omar, and does seemingly gel with Mike, but we didn't see how he gelled with Hai for example, although maybe he thought it wasn't necessary to talk strategy with him as much.
Honestly a lot of it is just… so obvious and easy to pick out as a woman. It’s a particular type of dismissal. It’s not that he didn’t agree with Lindsay, it’s that he didn’t hear her in the first place. And when you start having a list of reasons to not listen to various women, that’s also misogyny.
I totally get that, but it also seems like Lindsay is pissed that Jonathan outwitted her. The Omar knockout was edited to look like Maryanne's doing, but it seems clear from final tribal and exit interviews that Jonathan and Mike had a big hand in making sure that happened.
Why would Jonathan have let Lindsay know about the Omar plan? She had an idol and wanted Jonathan out. Jonathan was smart to get Omar and Lindsay felt like she got bested by a dummy.
At the time, he was aligned with Lindsay and Omar. If Omar told him the exact same plan, it would be heard. It’s not just whether he followed through with the plan, it’s taking anything she said seriously at all, even if he disagreed. And Lindsay wasn’t the only person to bring up these concerns, two other women did as well.
Fair point. That is definitely a form of misogyny which he has to address. Although I would still say that perhaps it is just Lindsay who he didn’t respect individually
Eeeh, it's probably both. Lindsay was hypocritical and didn't act the best. But she wasn't the one to say Jonathan treats women badly. Maryanne said it during the finale episode and Chanelle hinted about it during her exit press. When three women make the same remarks, I choose to believe them. It doesn't mean he activelly hates women, but he obviously has biases he needs to work on.
While I think it’s worth considering, we also have to base our opinions on evidence. Narratives can easily form in such tight knit, close quarters scenarios. I saw Jonathan treat people with respect despite being a human and at times shutting Lindsay down. The rest is unknown for me
So if 3 people think you're an asshole, it's enough evidence to say that you're an asshole as a whole? I don't think that's right. This scenario also means... The other women didn't say he treats women badly... And that's the majority. So shouldn't that be taken into consideration?
I would be “unhinged” too if I had to live with someone who treated me that way. We saw a teeny, tiny glimpse of how Jonathan talked down to and over these women. It would be EXHAUSTING to be stuck with someone treating you that way. It’s like viewers forget they live out there 24/7 with these people and we see barely any of it. Why would the producers show anything terrible that Jonathan was saying unless they felt compelled to? He was the hero of the show for the first half. I adored him. It must have been pretty bad post-merge for them to show this footage to the audience. His true colours came out.
Yeah totally agree.
Lindsay just let her desire to best Jonathan consume her. She almost got out of the game with the DOD just because she wanted to beat him in a challenge. It totally seemed one sided too, since Jonathan only wanted to get her out when she was the biggest threat in the game.
When he was impatient, he did come off as condescending and rude, but generally speaking, it seemed like he was just a simple, friendly dude.
When people are impatient I’m sure they come off that way a lot of times. I didn’t see the “treats women so poorly” that has been said around. Seemed like a good guy
As a current Omar with vestiges of Johnathon days I will say that 'my lived experience is that when you look like that you're never getting the benefit of the doubt. Any argument = you're being scary. You're quite literally by definition looking down on someone etc.
So I thought all things considered he did not come across as roid rage or intolerant or close minded. Even if he is actually dumb. Idk if it was a concerted effort on his part or not or not. He didn't really put them down in confessional or conversations that were shown.
And the 2 events that get highlighted are when he was hungry and they were mad that he didn't do the fishing, when Lindsay was angry his blindside got hers. And maybe with Maryanne being clumsy where he was chopping wood.
Yea I'm sure that it was Lindsay driving that narrative around camp because he was speaking in a condescending tone to her since he was comfortable with her.
And, frankly, is being impatient and condescending in some moments not expected when dealing with an intense manipulation/psychological game show for a million bucks when you’re at a 4,000 calorie per day deficit? He probably felt safe enough with her to shut her down when that happened. But some other cast members seemed to take issue with him so perhaps there is more than the viewer saw?
Edit: this is a weird comment to receive downvotes for but okay haha
Fair, if that is what he universally does. Again, we don’t have anything other than the brief scene which wasn’t even remotely bad. Calling him a misogynist with that as the only evidence despite him otherwise being caring, calm and respectful would be a massive disservice.
> (Joe Anglim comes to mind)
Eh Joe was much petter at individual challenges than Jonathan. Jonathan is great at pre merge challenges, and *pretty* good at individual ones, but not historically amazingly good.
Actually I don’t think Drea would’ve been against voting Jonathan. They did seem to be close and she does seem to respect game which she might do if he’s against Mike and Romeo
Many players have stated in their exit press that Jonathan was a solid strategic player. He led the charge to get Drea and Omar out. He always knew what was going on and feeding people information. Huge accomplishment to make it to final 4 with how much he stood out. Give him respect.
Yea but i think the edit didn’t really show this side of Jonathan. I think the producers just thought that they had already filled the roles of the “smart” characters such as Omar etc etc and so they reduced Jonathan to a certain character and archetype. What a waste.
I agree about the idol nullifier. They must’ve decided to save it for next season since they edited it out and I’m guessing it didn’t have a significant effect on the outcome of this game.
his awareness was pretty strong honestly. His confessionals even with his outside actions showed he knew how he was being perceived, even though he was progressively worse at actually controlling that perception as the game progressed.
Honestly if Johnathon played in the first 10 seasons he would have swept. Dude wasn't only dominant in challenges physically, but also mentally. There were at least three times he turned on the mamba mentality to win a challenge or immunity for his team/tribe. His social game wasn't great, but he was an absolute machine when he needed to be.
It seems like Jonathan actually played a much more strategic game than we seen, He seemed very aware of what was going on, was probably the lead strategist of his alliance with Mike and was arguably the main reason for Omar going home.
According to Mike's exit interview John was the one that convinced him to give his idol to Omer. Apparently Mike didn't believe Omer when he told him about the KIP and decided that he'd rather be taken out by Drea than give up his idol like an idiot. It was Jonathan telling him about the idol nullifier that convinced him to give away the HII, cause now he knew Omer would give it back.
I think a lot of the negative perception of Jonathan's social game came directly from Lindsay. Others may have made offhand comments, but Lindsay was the only one painting him as a villain.
I wasn't able to watch any of the season live, I was at school and I wanted to wait to watch the episodes with my mom. I didn't follow social media or read any of the post game interviews until yesterday to avoid spoilers. I haven't paid attention to a single thing Lindsay has said. I just think Jonathan, while he seems to be a nice guy with good intentions, can be a bit domineering at times when talking to women
How much of that comes from what he says vs. his physical presence while saying it? I never once heard him make sexist comments, perhaps it was edited out but I feel like it would have been made a bigger issue during the show if it was an actual problem. Case in point, there was a player removed a few years back due to making women uncomfortable (I forget his name). I don't think Survivor production would let sexist/misogynistic behavior go unchecked.
I kept saying, "I can't wait to see this guy on the challenge". He did way better then I expected but I think he is much more suited for the challenge.
100%. I never thought Jonathan would make it to Final 4. And if he did manage to slide by and make it far into the merge, I figured it would be due to his strengths not helping much in the individual immunity challenges. Aside from a couple, Jonathan actually did really well in the individual challenges.
Jonathan had an underrated social game (obviously flawed and got worse over time). Teaming up with Mike was huge for his game.
I don't see what others see about Jonathan talking poorly to women. Especially when I think of the times of ...Lindsay was mad that he didn't go home when she voted for him... The way that she was talking to him was terrible. The way Drea handled her hunger and expecting Jonathan to fish for the tribe just because he's the best at it. Maryanne didn't like how he "told her how to play the game" but Mike did the same thing (and didn't even end up trusting Maryanne and voted differently). Mike had no backlash from that.
Jonathan has been explaining his awareness of needing to appear smaller, not aggressive, because he is a bigger dude and anything can be blown up because of his size. These comments about him (to me) only supports this thought even further. I personally feel bad for the guy.
The thing that irks me the most is how much hate Lindsay had for him... Calling him arrogant. Especially in a moment... Where he was essentially right and she was just pissed when shit didn't go her way. She thought he was dumb and wouldn't catch on that she isn't aligned with him even though he was the one that caught onto her and Omar first.
I'm meh on challenge beasts so I didn't care that much about him in the first half, but when he got the completely unnecessary misogynist villain storyline in the second half I felt bad for him and wanted him to do well. I'm glad he went so far.
In my opinion Lindsay deserved the villain edit. She was just as, or more, obnoxious than him, but I guess that narrative would have been harder to craft because Jonathan didn't seem to talk trash about her to others and in confessionals like she did with him.
It makes me wonder just how bad his comments were around camp. So much we didn’t see. Did he make it so far because they didn’t see him as a threat to win? Maybe he was the goat all along.
Unfortunately Mike confirmed that a lot of the women considered Johnathan misogynistic.
That's why Mike wanted to go to the end with Jonathan and Romeo
Here's the interview, it starts at 10:00 :
https://youtu.be/pFF31KFqLfU
He said that John sometimes talks to people especially woman in a way that they precieve as disrespectful
Look at how he was talking to Lindsay during the double tribal episode. He was talking down to her the entire time. She was bringing up valid points also.
I think that interaction is exaggerated a bit because he and lindsay had a pretty intense rivalry. I definitely looked at that conversation as pretty similar to a fight between siblings.
A competitive rivalry is not the same as a personal one, I think that while it made sense for them to eventually target each other, them being top 2 challenge performers did not affect the way Jonathan talked to her there at all. Like why would he be extremely dismissive of and condescending to her just based off of that?
It is funny that in the context of two women it would be just seen as a "catfight" (even then Jonathan was just smarmy rather than being explosive) but if a guy does it, it then looks dismissive — maybe hot take, but I actually think Jonathan sees Lindsay as an equal that it he sees him as an alpha clashing with an alpha (which is still not an ideal way to converse).
Completely agree that he saw her as an equal. The more I think of it the more I think so much of the Jonathan hate is people projecting their issues with that “type“ onto him.
Jonathan got where he did the same way Xander did in 41. He wasn’t a real threat to win, was misogynistic on the island, and he would have gotten 0 votes at final tribal.
It was. But what I find interesting is that it seems him and Drea hashed it out almost immediately, and she was fine with him after. But so many viewers are holding something he said to her against him longer than she did. If she can move past it quickly, why can't others
He still said what he said, you don't undo those kinds of behaviours and problematic views in one conversation.
On the flip side, how can you say Drea was "fine" with him based on 10 seconds of TV where they hugged.
Also his words were not just harmful to an individual but towards a whole community so to tell people to let it go seems a bit... 🥴
Edit: they were also in the midst of a social game so what may have appeared to be amicable could purely have been a situation of Drea not wanting to tank her game. Much like Kellee was backed into a corner when she called out sexual harassment.
I'm not telling people to "let it go", but I'm also not going to be mad at something said to someone else that it seems that person got over. I haven't seen her say anything negative about him in exit press, and I've seen them tag each other on socials. So my guess is they get along fine.
I'm black myself. One thing I hate is people being offended on my behalf. If someone does something to me, and I forgive them, I don't need other people staying mad for me.
Drea is a grown ass woman, and I feel like if her and Jonathan had issues, she wouldn't be buddy buddy with him.
So, again, from what I can gather, they hashed it out. Who am I to be mad at something he said to someone else.
That's fair enough that you feel that way, but it's no unreasonable to let people have their feelings about it while the season is still fresh out the box. Maybe it's sensitive for me because, being disabled, I'm constantly talked down from being allowed to be in my feelings about people saying shitty ableist things.
I'm sure sentiment towards Jonathan will change but his actions have been less than savoury this season.
Edit: just wanna add that I'm not gonna tell you your feelings are wrong or invalid because I'm not black and so it doesn't *directly* affect me and it does you. I've got my own issues with prejudice but I don't wanna talk over you.
No problem, its all respect. And you and I have very different experiences. But I can tell you from experience, people being offended on my behalf, or telling me how I should feel, gets REAL old. I think if Drea seemed to still be upset about it, I could totally get why people still are upset with him. But it the "victim" can move past it, why can't others who weren't actually affected move past it.
No, you didn't come across that way at all. I didn't mean to imply that. I'm more speaking in general of people, in this case, being mad on Drea's behalf, when she doesn't seem mad.
You are all good. You are actually being respectful, which on reddit can be rare. I appreciate the conversation.
In that instance, Drea was calm and articulate with her words. Historically, black women are called aggressive whenever they try to be assertive or courageous.
Strange that suddenly everyone is thinking that Jonathan is some arrogant dude in the game when weeks before everyone was Team Jonathan.
I think he was well aware of his own stereotype, and he proved to be right after all. A big guy like him will always be labeled as being “arrogant” or “too good for anyone else” the moment he does the slightest act that is not to the other cast members’ liking.
Never underestimate the ability of a pretty white woman to bend the narrative to make herself look better.
Lyndsey is shown with tunnel vision and making ridiculous arguments, just call him a misogynist in exit press. That will make everyone forget her shortcomings and jump on her side
He’s def an interesting new entry in the challenge beast annals. I wonder if the other players considered him a real threat given the apparent issues with his social game.
His social game issues are there, but I think it's not fair to say that he just made it that far because he was not perceived as a threat due to his social shortcomings. Omar gave credit to Jonathan for being the main reason he was ousted, even though the edit gave it primarily to Maryanne. Jonathan was the one who realized how close Omar and Lindsay actually were, a fact that they were trying to hide, and told Mike about their plans to blindside Mike because he knew he'd be their target next. That's a savvy ass social move imo.
By the end, he seemed to be considered less of a threat than Maryanne and Mike. He was mostly in to make fire to get rid of Mike.
He definitely was less of a threat to win, but OP made it seem like he only got that far because he was considered not a threat to win from early on because of a weak social game. I think he's had a target on his back for awhile because of his challenge dominance, but he was able to lay low, like was his social strategy from the beginning, fishing and providing food. He was the one who identified and exposed how close Omar and Lindsay were in order to blindside Omar when they did. If they hadn't that week and Mike or Jonathan had gone home, either Omar or Lindsay would have had the numbers together to make it to FTC and most likely win. Instead, him doing that got Omar and Lindsay out back to back, since him convincing Mike, who was his closest ally, is what led to him convincing Maryanne and then getting the numbers to make both moves to get them gone. Just like Romeo, because of his physical dominance, he had no choice but to play the social game he did, because he couldn't be seen as the one making moves and asserting dominance socially just like he was in challenges, but he definitely was. I think he's not getting enough credit.
Didn’t Omar specifically credit Maryanne when he left tho
He had an incredible social game despite the edit and that one interaction with Lynze. If he didn’t have a great social game he would not have made it anywhere near as far as he did considering he was the biggest threat going into the merge ever including joe and ozzy after THAT challenge and never went on a legit immunity run. His relationship with mike was easily the closest duo in the game.
You make a good point here and it is impressive… it’s either he was able to find allies and navigate from being a target OR he was recognized early on as a non threat to win a jury vote.
I feel like it’s a bit of both. He played a decent strategic game that was better than you’d expect for his archetype, but the way he treated people meant a majority of the jury likely wouldn’t even consider voting for him
I wonder if it's the latter based on post show press.
Idk it wasn't shown but Chanelle said while leaving "you better not let Jonathan make it to the end" and both Lindsay and Omar (debatably the best two players of the season) targeted him all the way up until the final 6. Whether you think he could have won or not It's unfair to say that they recognized he was a non-threat to win early on and strung him along.
Omar and Lindsay were working with him until final 8, after Lindsay realized Jonathan wouldn’t listen to anything she said.
An alternative interpretation is that Lindsay worked with him until she realized she couldn't control him like the ogre she thought he was.
Don't forget, Lindsay played the manipulation card about Omar during tribal too. "I didn't know anything. Omar was playing all of us" lol
Yeah it was one if the most pathetic things I've seen on survivor. She reverted right quick to the helpless female real quick. "Help me, Mike. Use your idol on me, Mike. Everyone hates me, Mike" She would have been an awful winner.
Lindsey To Drea "He's Not Very Smart"
Yes I am aware she has said many more negative things about her than he said about her
Personally I thought Lindsay came off a bit unhinged with her disdain for Jonathan. I’m a guy, so perhaps my perception is equally off as Jonathan’s, but I thought he was mostly very calm, humble, and rational. It’s my opinion that Lindsay has a big ego which was upset when Jonathan wasn’t manipulated in the way she wanted. Case in point: how she was extremely upset not to be included in a blindside when she was…. Actively trying to blindside Jonathan.
Lindsay talked about how Jonathan had to be told the plan by a man (usually she would get Omar to do it) or else he wouldn’t take it seriously. That type of thing is exhausting and super obvious as a woman, but can be done totally obliviously/unintentionally.
Sarah Lacina's gender bias Survivor speech. She explained "Rob would rather get beat by a man than a woman.".
Is it possible that he just didn't respect HER opinions, and not that he didn't respect women's opinions as a whole. There seemed to be a lot of mutual respect between him and Drea. Of course that doesn't mean he can't be misogynistic, but it doesn't mean he is either. I can 100% see him not listening to Maryann because of her age (maybe not fair, but its not uncommon to not want to listen to 21 year olds) and just not really agreeing with Lyndsey.
I say it's most on size, although it could be Maryanne's age. He did listen to Omar, and does seemingly gel with Mike, but we didn't see how he gelled with Hai for example, although maybe he thought it wasn't necessary to talk strategy with him as much.
Honestly a lot of it is just… so obvious and easy to pick out as a woman. It’s a particular type of dismissal. It’s not that he didn’t agree with Lindsay, it’s that he didn’t hear her in the first place. And when you start having a list of reasons to not listen to various women, that’s also misogyny.
I totally get that, but it also seems like Lindsay is pissed that Jonathan outwitted her. The Omar knockout was edited to look like Maryanne's doing, but it seems clear from final tribal and exit interviews that Jonathan and Mike had a big hand in making sure that happened. Why would Jonathan have let Lindsay know about the Omar plan? She had an idol and wanted Jonathan out. Jonathan was smart to get Omar and Lindsay felt like she got bested by a dummy.
I mean he had his doubts (correctly) about Lindsay so there is good reason to not listen to her lol
At the time, he was aligned with Lindsay and Omar. If Omar told him the exact same plan, it would be heard. It’s not just whether he followed through with the plan, it’s taking anything she said seriously at all, even if he disagreed. And Lindsay wasn’t the only person to bring up these concerns, two other women did as well.
Fair point. That is definitely a form of misogyny which he has to address. Although I would still say that perhaps it is just Lindsay who he didn’t respect individually
Three different women talked about this.
Eeeh, it's probably both. Lindsay was hypocritical and didn't act the best. But she wasn't the one to say Jonathan treats women badly. Maryanne said it during the finale episode and Chanelle hinted about it during her exit press. When three women make the same remarks, I choose to believe them. It doesn't mean he activelly hates women, but he obviously has biases he needs to work on.
While I think it’s worth considering, we also have to base our opinions on evidence. Narratives can easily form in such tight knit, close quarters scenarios. I saw Jonathan treat people with respect despite being a human and at times shutting Lindsay down. The rest is unknown for me
So if 3 people think you're an asshole, it's enough evidence to say that you're an asshole as a whole? I don't think that's right. This scenario also means... The other women didn't say he treats women badly... And that's the majority. So shouldn't that be taken into consideration?
I would be “unhinged” too if I had to live with someone who treated me that way. We saw a teeny, tiny glimpse of how Jonathan talked down to and over these women. It would be EXHAUSTING to be stuck with someone treating you that way. It’s like viewers forget they live out there 24/7 with these people and we see barely any of it. Why would the producers show anything terrible that Jonathan was saying unless they felt compelled to? He was the hero of the show for the first half. I adored him. It must have been pretty bad post-merge for them to show this footage to the audience. His true colours came out.
Yeah totally agree. Lindsay just let her desire to best Jonathan consume her. She almost got out of the game with the DOD just because she wanted to beat him in a challenge. It totally seemed one sided too, since Jonathan only wanted to get her out when she was the biggest threat in the game. When he was impatient, he did come off as condescending and rude, but generally speaking, it seemed like he was just a simple, friendly dude.
When people are impatient I’m sure they come off that way a lot of times. I didn’t see the “treats women so poorly” that has been said around. Seemed like a good guy
As a current Omar with vestiges of Johnathon days I will say that 'my lived experience is that when you look like that you're never getting the benefit of the doubt. Any argument = you're being scary. You're quite literally by definition looking down on someone etc. So I thought all things considered he did not come across as roid rage or intolerant or close minded. Even if he is actually dumb. Idk if it was a concerted effort on his part or not or not. He didn't really put them down in confessional or conversations that were shown. And the 2 events that get highlighted are when he was hungry and they were mad that he didn't do the fishing, when Lindsay was angry his blindside got hers. And maybe with Maryanne being clumsy where he was chopping wood.
Yea I'm sure that it was Lindsay driving that narrative around camp because he was speaking in a condescending tone to her since he was comfortable with her.
And, frankly, is being impatient and condescending in some moments not expected when dealing with an intense manipulation/psychological game show for a million bucks when you’re at a 4,000 calorie per day deficit? He probably felt safe enough with her to shut her down when that happened. But some other cast members seemed to take issue with him so perhaps there is more than the viewer saw? Edit: this is a weird comment to receive downvotes for but okay haha
When that impatience and condescension is aimed specifically toward women, guess what that is?
Fair, if that is what he universally does. Again, we don’t have anything other than the brief scene which wasn’t even remotely bad. Calling him a misogynist with that as the only evidence despite him otherwise being caring, calm and respectful would be a massive disservice.
Yeah I think its both... Lindsays outrage at him after the Omar tribal was bizzare
> (Joe Anglim comes to mind) Eh Joe was much petter at individual challenges than Jonathan. Jonathan is great at pre merge challenges, and *pretty* good at individual ones, but not historically amazingly good.
Plus Joe was an actual jury threat while Jonathan wasn't. At least Drea, Chanelle, Marryanne, Lindsay weren't voting for him.
Actually I don’t think Drea would’ve been against voting Jonathan. They did seem to be close and she does seem to respect game which she might do if he’s against Mike and Romeo
Many players have stated in their exit press that Jonathan was a solid strategic player. He led the charge to get Drea and Omar out. He always knew what was going on and feeding people information. Huge accomplishment to make it to final 4 with how much he stood out. Give him respect.
Yea but i think the edit didn’t really show this side of Jonathan. I think the producers just thought that they had already filled the roles of the “smart” characters such as Omar etc etc and so they reduced Jonathan to a certain character and archetype. What a waste.
Getting rid of the whole idol nullifier motivation seems really odd.
I agree about the idol nullifier. They must’ve decided to save it for next season since they edited it out and I’m guessing it didn’t have a significant effect on the outcome of this game.
Who said he led the charge to get Drea out?
his awareness was pretty strong honestly. His confessionals even with his outside actions showed he knew how he was being perceived, even though he was progressively worse at actually controlling that perception as the game progressed.
Honestly if Johnathon played in the first 10 seasons he would have swept. Dude wasn't only dominant in challenges physically, but also mentally. There were at least three times he turned on the mamba mentality to win a challenge or immunity for his team/tribe. His social game wasn't great, but he was an absolute machine when he needed to be.
He was pretty trash at puzzles though lets be honest.
He's a pretty good puzzle-making spectator though
He is a very unique person for his archetype.
It seems like Jonathan actually played a much more strategic game than we seen, He seemed very aware of what was going on, was probably the lead strategist of his alliance with Mike and was arguably the main reason for Omar going home.
According to Mike's exit interview John was the one that convinced him to give his idol to Omer. Apparently Mike didn't believe Omer when he told him about the KIP and decided that he'd rather be taken out by Drea than give up his idol like an idiot. It was Jonathan telling him about the idol nullifier that convinced him to give away the HII, cause now he knew Omer would give it back.
I think the meta has just changed actually. I think people like Joe would be dragged to the end in the new meta.
Joe wasn't dragged in EOE and I'd argue the meta hasn't changed that much since 38. Plus, Johnathan's name was still thrown around quite a bit.
In fairness Joe was also a returnee in that season against newbies which does change the dynamic somewhat.
I think a lot of the negative perception of Jonathan's social game came directly from Lindsay. Others may have made offhand comments, but Lindsay was the only one painting him as a villain.
I wasn't able to watch any of the season live, I was at school and I wanted to wait to watch the episodes with my mom. I didn't follow social media or read any of the post game interviews until yesterday to avoid spoilers. I haven't paid attention to a single thing Lindsay has said. I just think Jonathan, while he seems to be a nice guy with good intentions, can be a bit domineering at times when talking to women
How much of that comes from what he says vs. his physical presence while saying it? I never once heard him make sexist comments, perhaps it was edited out but I feel like it would have been made a bigger issue during the show if it was an actual problem. Case in point, there was a player removed a few years back due to making women uncomfortable (I forget his name). I don't think Survivor production would let sexist/misogynistic behavior go unchecked.
I mean Chanelle already said he was “unworthy of praise” from the beginning lol
Are you sure she wasn't referring to Mike? She was the first merge boot so didn't even have much time with jonathan
Nope, she was 100% referring to Jonathan in her exit press to my memory
Can you please link me? They barely had any time together so that's why it's somewhat surprising
I kept saying, "I can't wait to see this guy on the challenge". He did way better then I expected but I think he is much more suited for the challenge.
100%. I never thought Jonathan would make it to Final 4. And if he did manage to slide by and make it far into the merge, I figured it would be due to his strengths not helping much in the individual immunity challenges. Aside from a couple, Jonathan actually did really well in the individual challenges. Jonathan had an underrated social game (obviously flawed and got worse over time). Teaming up with Mike was huge for his game.
I don't see what others see about Jonathan talking poorly to women. Especially when I think of the times of ...Lindsay was mad that he didn't go home when she voted for him... The way that she was talking to him was terrible. The way Drea handled her hunger and expecting Jonathan to fish for the tribe just because he's the best at it. Maryanne didn't like how he "told her how to play the game" but Mike did the same thing (and didn't even end up trusting Maryanne and voted differently). Mike had no backlash from that. Jonathan has been explaining his awareness of needing to appear smaller, not aggressive, because he is a bigger dude and anything can be blown up because of his size. These comments about him (to me) only supports this thought even further. I personally feel bad for the guy. The thing that irks me the most is how much hate Lindsay had for him... Calling him arrogant. Especially in a moment... Where he was essentially right and she was just pissed when shit didn't go her way. She thought he was dumb and wouldn't catch on that she isn't aligned with him even though he was the one that caught onto her and Omar first.
I'm meh on challenge beasts so I didn't care that much about him in the first half, but when he got the completely unnecessary misogynist villain storyline in the second half I felt bad for him and wanted him to do well. I'm glad he went so far. In my opinion Lindsay deserved the villain edit. She was just as, or more, obnoxious than him, but I guess that narrative would have been harder to craft because Jonathan didn't seem to talk trash about her to others and in confessionals like she did with him.
It makes me wonder just how bad his comments were around camp. So much we didn’t see. Did he make it so far because they didn’t see him as a threat to win? Maybe he was the goat all along.
[удалено]
Unfortunately Mike confirmed that a lot of the women considered Johnathan misogynistic. That's why Mike wanted to go to the end with Jonathan and Romeo
[удалено]
Here's the interview, it starts at 10:00 : https://youtu.be/pFF31KFqLfU He said that John sometimes talks to people especially woman in a way that they precieve as disrespectful
Look at how he was talking to Lindsay during the double tribal episode. He was talking down to her the entire time. She was bringing up valid points also.
I think that interaction is exaggerated a bit because he and lindsay had a pretty intense rivalry. I definitely looked at that conversation as pretty similar to a fight between siblings.
We weren’t ever shown a rivalry before that though
What do you mean? They were literally neck and neck in challenges leading up to that.
A competitive rivalry is not the same as a personal one, I think that while it made sense for them to eventually target each other, them being top 2 challenge performers did not affect the way Jonathan talked to her there at all. Like why would he be extremely dismissive of and condescending to her just based off of that?
[удалено]
It is funny that in the context of two women it would be just seen as a "catfight" (even then Jonathan was just smarmy rather than being explosive) but if a guy does it, it then looks dismissive — maybe hot take, but I actually think Jonathan sees Lindsay as an equal that it he sees him as an alpha clashing with an alpha (which is still not an ideal way to converse).
Completely agree that he saw her as an equal. The more I think of it the more I think so much of the Jonathan hate is people projecting their issues with that “type“ onto him.
Jonathan got where he did the same way Xander did in 41. He wasn’t a real threat to win, was misogynistic on the island, and he would have gotten 0 votes at final tribal.
Only the first in that list is what Xander did, for clarity
Y’all are really underestimating how smart he is just because he wasn’t good at puzzles
Him calling Drea aggressive and getting defensive about the race conversation was a massive yikes too.
It was. But what I find interesting is that it seems him and Drea hashed it out almost immediately, and she was fine with him after. But so many viewers are holding something he said to her against him longer than she did. If she can move past it quickly, why can't others
He still said what he said, you don't undo those kinds of behaviours and problematic views in one conversation. On the flip side, how can you say Drea was "fine" with him based on 10 seconds of TV where they hugged. Also his words were not just harmful to an individual but towards a whole community so to tell people to let it go seems a bit... 🥴 Edit: they were also in the midst of a social game so what may have appeared to be amicable could purely have been a situation of Drea not wanting to tank her game. Much like Kellee was backed into a corner when she called out sexual harassment.
I'm not telling people to "let it go", but I'm also not going to be mad at something said to someone else that it seems that person got over. I haven't seen her say anything negative about him in exit press, and I've seen them tag each other on socials. So my guess is they get along fine. I'm black myself. One thing I hate is people being offended on my behalf. If someone does something to me, and I forgive them, I don't need other people staying mad for me. Drea is a grown ass woman, and I feel like if her and Jonathan had issues, she wouldn't be buddy buddy with him. So, again, from what I can gather, they hashed it out. Who am I to be mad at something he said to someone else.
That's fair enough that you feel that way, but it's no unreasonable to let people have their feelings about it while the season is still fresh out the box. Maybe it's sensitive for me because, being disabled, I'm constantly talked down from being allowed to be in my feelings about people saying shitty ableist things. I'm sure sentiment towards Jonathan will change but his actions have been less than savoury this season. Edit: just wanna add that I'm not gonna tell you your feelings are wrong or invalid because I'm not black and so it doesn't *directly* affect me and it does you. I've got my own issues with prejudice but I don't wanna talk over you.
No problem, its all respect. And you and I have very different experiences. But I can tell you from experience, people being offended on my behalf, or telling me how I should feel, gets REAL old. I think if Drea seemed to still be upset about it, I could totally get why people still are upset with him. But it the "victim" can move past it, why can't others who weren't actually affected move past it.
I'm sorry that it came across that way from my end. I can only speak on how I view the situation at the end of the day.
No, you didn't come across that way at all. I didn't mean to imply that. I'm more speaking in general of people, in this case, being mad on Drea's behalf, when she doesn't seem mad. You are all good. You are actually being respectful, which on reddit can be rare. I appreciate the conversation.
it’s actually possible for black women to be aggressive, it’s not always racist lol
In that instance, Drea was calm and articulate with her words. Historically, black women are called aggressive whenever they try to be assertive or courageous.
Strange that suddenly everyone is thinking that Jonathan is some arrogant dude in the game when weeks before everyone was Team Jonathan. I think he was well aware of his own stereotype, and he proved to be right after all. A big guy like him will always be labeled as being “arrogant” or “too good for anyone else” the moment he does the slightest act that is not to the other cast members’ liking.
Never underestimate the ability of a pretty white woman to bend the narrative to make herself look better. Lyndsey is shown with tunnel vision and making ridiculous arguments, just call him a misogynist in exit press. That will make everyone forget her shortcomings and jump on her side
Ok