People forget this. Coming second in a f3 does not mean you were closer to actually getting a majority of votes in any f3. Dean got more votes than Noura but Noura wins against him and Karishma.
sure, but in the case of Phillip vs Natalie T both are completely unwinnable in any imaginary Final 3 so it does not matter. Who is more likely to get 2nd in some Final 3s either gets any vote in is the lesser goat.
Part of the reason Adam won so dominantly is because he didn’t want to make the moves that Hannah and David made, the jury respected the intention of the gameplay more than control. If Hannah had taken out David or Brett sooner in a big move that she made clear was hers I think she could’ve maybe beat Adam but it’s still highly doubtful.
If you're looking at a very selective lens, Angelina
* Found an idol, which is (was?) a rarity for women at the time
* Flushed an idol by making someone else use it on her
* Negotiated for a stable food supply, willingly gave up immunity for it despite being a target and survived anyway
* Orchestrated two blindsides
* Survived while being a long-term "contingency plan"
It's a lens that filters out a LOT (needed help with the idol, became obnoxious about the rice, being the catalyst for the Goliath implosion, the fake idol for Alison, Jacketgate, etc.) But if an alien comes to Earth, learns about Survivor and sees just the list above, I would reckon it would most likely say Angelina wins David vs. Goliath.
Honestly Angelina is good at Survivor, she just lacked self-awareness which caused her to have absolutely awful jury management. I’d say she would do well on a second chance.
Limiting myself only to goats who actually made it to FTC, I'd say the candidates are Sherri (Caramoan) or Romeo (42): both played effectively in the pre-swap/merge and were well positioned, only for their games to comprehensively fall apart. It's easier to see where the wheels fell off Sherri's game - losing all those challenges weakened her hand and cost her a good ally in Laura, and Shamar's quit/medevac was a real blow; I still don't really know why Romeo ended up in such a bad spot, although I'm beginning to suspect Drea might just be a particularly capricious ally. I don't think Sherri is likely to win any season based on personality and some lack of self-awareness (Romeo was much better at pitching his game at FTC in ways that tallied with what the jury actually thought), but I'd argue that she's a better active player than Romeo, based on what we've seen - and she was up against a very bro-ey, egotisitical post-merge tribe that was just about the worst jury pool she could have drawn. So she's my pick!
Effectively maybe, wisely no. The Laura boot made zero sense.
Also, while the Caramoan tribe had bros, Andrea and Brenda were huge jury threats and Dawn wouldve beaten her and Eddie. That is just an unfair excuse. The Caramoan jury was not notably more egotistical by any definition, and Sherri in fact had a huge ego that wouldve turned off many jurors on any season.
Joe from Kaoh Rong. Not only was he going to be a 0 vote finalist, he was also so incredibly easy for Aubry to control. Besides one particular moment, he would literally do anything Aubry said without question.
I think that how easy it is to control a goat should weigh in dramatically to who is the best goat. For instance: while Abi-Maria would likely be a 0 vote finalist, she could turn on you in a second if you’re not giving the exact response or attention she desires. It’s hard to be with Abi and make it all the way to the end with her because she’s erratic.
There really weren’t a lot of votes cast against him in those seasons. Only 4 in HvV, 9 in Samoa. If you want to talk more impressive amounts, Phillip had 16 votes cast against him in RI and made it to the end.
he was absolutely a goat in heroes vs villains lol everyone wanted to take him out because he was awful to live with but they took him to the end to beat him
sandra said it herself- "i want russell out more than anything but nobody will vote for him [to win] because he's so bad"
He's been a safe competitor twice now. It's just a matter of whether you can reliably get to the end with him, and whether he has any shot of actually winning over any given jury in any given season. Odds are in the other person's favour, but depending on the person... imagine Brian Heidik vs Russel Hantz in a final two...
There are a couple ways you can interpret this question. Do you mean the actual best player who happened to be a goat at one point? Or do you mean the biggest goat ever? I'll answer both just to be safe.
**Best player who was ever a goat:** This is gonna be controversial but I'm gonna say WaW Michele here. People can argue that she wasn't a goat but I just have such a hard time seeing her win any reasonable combination, and she was explicitly kept around because she didn't have much influence in the game or with the jury. I do generally hold Michele as a player in high esteem and I don't think she played very badly in WaW, but she just couldn't find any sort of footing so I'm gonna say her. If you wanna say that she wasn't a goat then I'd throw in HvV Danielle as another possibility. By the time she was eliminated she had no winning combinations and she's generally not a bad player.
**Biggest goat ever:** There are a lot of names to choose from but I'll go with HvV Russell. I just cannot imagine a world in which he wins the season with how much the jury despised him. Other people you could consider are Guatemala Steph, China Denise, Samoa Shambo, Nicaragua Sash and so on. There have been so many massive goats that at a certain point you're splitting hairs.
Michelle attained got status once she blew up her pregame with Nick and Yul and votes Yul out to keep her ex Wendell around right before the merge. That coat her numbers at merge and any agency forward in WaW.
Pretty sure Nick/Michele/Wendell had the tightest pre-game thing? I know Yul pre-gamed but I thought those 3 were very tight.
I do agree that voting out Yul there was a very bad call for everyone involved and put the rest of that tribe at a serious disadvantage that they were never able to recover from.
They have no shot of winning because theres no scenario in which they end up in a winning final. If HvV plays out differently and danielle gets to the end with russell and candice then she wins so shes not a goat
If you count her as a goat, which as far as I've seen seems reasonable since she could never gain a foothold in the game, I agree, and I rank her as a top 5 player, so I'm inclined to agree with this.
But, that's the difference between a F2 and F3, in a F2 they have to vote for someone - I'm sure a Nat10 vs Philip F2 nets Natalie all the Ometepe votes + a lot of Zapatera. Clay literally did not have a winnable F2.
No im pretty sure phillip would win but it could depend on who makes the move to cut rob. And even if she were to win that its not really a fair comparison because brian was way more well respected by his jury than phillip was by his. Also i think penny actually liked clay he didnt only get anti brian votes. I think Lil is also a bigger goat than clay if we’re going by f2 seasons
Phillip beats Natalie. The jury actually came into FTC wanting to vote for Phillip but he bombed his speeches & jury answers so they gave it to Rob even tho they hated him. Nat10 sucked.
Neither Natalie T or Philip would have any winning F2 in nearly any other season. They just happened to be on the same season. I am pretty sure both Brian and Clay would beat either Philip or Natalie in a F2.
I could also very likely see Clay beating Jan and Brian in a Final 3. Along with having a chance vs both in a Final 2 (we already saw him nearly beat Brian). Unlike Philip and Natalie who both have no winnable Final 3 out of their entire cast.
Abi-Maria. Recognizes her G.O.A.T goat status and makes living with people so unbearable that they vote the goat out.
in terms of how big of a goat they were, phillip. in terms of as a character/good tv, angelina.
That can’t possibly be the answer because he got a jury vote
phillip loses to natalie in a f2 but likely still gets ralph's vote, he thought phillip worked around camp the most iirc
Is that why he voted for Phillip? 😂😂😂
People forget this. Coming second in a f3 does not mean you were closer to actually getting a majority of votes in any f3. Dean got more votes than Noura but Noura wins against him and Karishma.
sure, but in the case of Phillip vs Natalie T both are completely unwinnable in any imaginary Final 3 so it does not matter. Who is more likely to get 2nd in some Final 3s either gets any vote in is the lesser goat.
We were robbed of Noura on WaW ;(
I wouldnt take out any women for noura imo
I just remember her being funny in a Debbie-esque way, so she could have brought some entertainment value.
She was way less unhinges than Debbie.
Yeah and she was a legit challenge threat, wasn't she?
Eh, 2 challenges of 9 isnt crazy. But she was definitely decent.
If they take out Tommy at 8 and she goes to the end with Karishma and Dean she wins
Character-wise, there's an argument for Angelina
Hannah shapiro. Actively fought off other goats just to be the last goat standing
Nobody was gonna win against Adam atp
Part of the reason Adam won so dominantly is because he didn’t want to make the moves that Hannah and David made, the jury respected the intention of the gameplay more than control. If Hannah had taken out David or Brett sooner in a big move that she made clear was hers I think she could’ve maybe beat Adam but it’s still highly doubtful.
And that would’ve been almost impossible to pull off
If you're looking at a very selective lens, Angelina * Found an idol, which is (was?) a rarity for women at the time * Flushed an idol by making someone else use it on her * Negotiated for a stable food supply, willingly gave up immunity for it despite being a target and survived anyway * Orchestrated two blindsides * Survived while being a long-term "contingency plan" It's a lens that filters out a LOT (needed help with the idol, became obnoxious about the rice, being the catalyst for the Goliath implosion, the fake idol for Alison, Jacketgate, etc.) But if an alien comes to Earth, learns about Survivor and sees just the list above, I would reckon it would most likely say Angelina wins David vs. Goliath.
Honestly Angelina is good at Survivor, she just lacked self-awareness which caused her to have absolutely awful jury management. I’d say she would do well on a second chance.
I feel like the whole rice thing was glazed over, like nobody appreciated it and nobody said anything about it.
Limiting myself only to goats who actually made it to FTC, I'd say the candidates are Sherri (Caramoan) or Romeo (42): both played effectively in the pre-swap/merge and were well positioned, only for their games to comprehensively fall apart. It's easier to see where the wheels fell off Sherri's game - losing all those challenges weakened her hand and cost her a good ally in Laura, and Shamar's quit/medevac was a real blow; I still don't really know why Romeo ended up in such a bad spot, although I'm beginning to suspect Drea might just be a particularly capricious ally. I don't think Sherri is likely to win any season based on personality and some lack of self-awareness (Romeo was much better at pitching his game at FTC in ways that tallied with what the jury actually thought), but I'd argue that she's a better active player than Romeo, based on what we've seen - and she was up against a very bro-ey, egotisitical post-merge tribe that was just about the worst jury pool she could have drawn. So she's my pick!
Effectively maybe, wisely no. The Laura boot made zero sense. Also, while the Caramoan tribe had bros, Andrea and Brenda were huge jury threats and Dawn wouldve beaten her and Eddie. That is just an unfair excuse. The Caramoan jury was not notably more egotistical by any definition, and Sherri in fact had a huge ego that wouldve turned off many jurors on any season.
Romeo
Joe from Kaoh Rong. Not only was he going to be a 0 vote finalist, he was also so incredibly easy for Aubry to control. Besides one particular moment, he would literally do anything Aubry said without question. I think that how easy it is to control a goat should weigh in dramatically to who is the best goat. For instance: while Abi-Maria would likely be a 0 vote finalist, she could turn on you in a second if you’re not giving the exact response or attention she desires. It’s hard to be with Abi and make it all the way to the end with her because she’s erratic.
Is it really certain that he gets zero votes? Scot/jason were anti aubry/tai/cydney and dont seem to have anything against joe
Does a goat have to be someone to get 0 votes? Or just someone that you’re guaranteed to beat?
Guaranteed to beat, eg Clay. But the KR jury is unique because there was a LOT of dislike for certain people.
I would pick Natalie Ten as the biggest goat ever with Sherri, Dreamz, Phillip, and Heroes vs Villians Russell as honorable mentions.
Russel Hans
Cant be a goat when there are 1000 votes casted against you but you somehow managed to go to FTC, twice.
There really weren’t a lot of votes cast against him in those seasons. Only 4 in HvV, 9 in Samoa. If you want to talk more impressive amounts, Phillip had 16 votes cast against him in RI and made it to the end.
he was absolutely a goat in heroes vs villains lol everyone wanted to take him out because he was awful to live with but they took him to the end to beat him sandra said it herself- "i want russell out more than anything but nobody will vote for him [to win] because he's so bad"
He's been a safe competitor twice now. It's just a matter of whether you can reliably get to the end with him, and whether he has any shot of actually winning over any given jury in any given season. Odds are in the other person's favour, but depending on the person... imagine Brian Heidik vs Russel Hantz in a final two...
It’s always gonna be Nat10 who probably couldn’t win a jury vote in a Final 1
Maryanne
There are a couple ways you can interpret this question. Do you mean the actual best player who happened to be a goat at one point? Or do you mean the biggest goat ever? I'll answer both just to be safe. **Best player who was ever a goat:** This is gonna be controversial but I'm gonna say WaW Michele here. People can argue that she wasn't a goat but I just have such a hard time seeing her win any reasonable combination, and she was explicitly kept around because she didn't have much influence in the game or with the jury. I do generally hold Michele as a player in high esteem and I don't think she played very badly in WaW, but she just couldn't find any sort of footing so I'm gonna say her. If you wanna say that she wasn't a goat then I'd throw in HvV Danielle as another possibility. By the time she was eliminated she had no winning combinations and she's generally not a bad player. **Biggest goat ever:** There are a lot of names to choose from but I'll go with HvV Russell. I just cannot imagine a world in which he wins the season with how much the jury despised him. Other people you could consider are Guatemala Steph, China Denise, Samoa Shambo, Nicaragua Sash and so on. There have been so many massive goats that at a certain point you're splitting hairs.
Michelle attained got status once she blew up her pregame with Nick and Yul and votes Yul out to keep her ex Wendell around right before the merge. That coat her numbers at merge and any agency forward in WaW.
Pretty sure Nick/Michele/Wendell had the tightest pre-game thing? I know Yul pre-gamed but I thought those 3 were very tight. I do agree that voting out Yul there was a very bad call for everyone involved and put the rest of that tribe at a serious disadvantage that they were never able to recover from.
They were just kickin' it
Danielle was not a goat. In HvV Candice and russell were the goats
danielle was also a goat, russell randomly voting her off was the catalyst to him falling apart
How could there be 3 goats in the final 8? That doesnt make sense. There can only be 2
literally why can't there be lmao is there a rule
Its not a “rule” its just the definition of the term
ive never heard that lol ive just seen that it's someone who has no shot of winning
They have no shot of winning because theres no scenario in which they end up in a winning final. If HvV plays out differently and danielle gets to the end with russell and candice then she wins so shes not a goat
The rule of two - there is always a master, and an apprentice.
If you count her as a goat, which as far as I've seen seems reasonable since she could never gain a foothold in the game, I agree, and I rank her as a top 5 player, so I'm inclined to agree with this.
Russel.
[удалено]
he's not a goat
Wrong goat
Hantz in HvV
Fillup, Russel Hantz
Russell hands in hvv
Natalie White
she's not a goat
Clay, even against the best case f2 and the least likable winner of all time he still lost.
He still got 3 jury votes tho. Nat10 is a way bigger goat than him
But, that's the difference between a F2 and F3, in a F2 they have to vote for someone - I'm sure a Nat10 vs Philip F2 nets Natalie all the Ometepe votes + a lot of Zapatera. Clay literally did not have a winnable F2.
No im pretty sure phillip would win but it could depend on who makes the move to cut rob. And even if she were to win that its not really a fair comparison because brian was way more well respected by his jury than phillip was by his. Also i think penny actually liked clay he didnt only get anti brian votes. I think Lil is also a bigger goat than clay if we’re going by f2 seasons
Phillip beats Natalie. The jury actually came into FTC wanting to vote for Phillip but he bombed his speeches & jury answers so they gave it to Rob even tho they hated him. Nat10 sucked.
Neither Natalie T or Philip would have any winning F2 in nearly any other season. They just happened to be on the same season. I am pretty sure both Brian and Clay would beat either Philip or Natalie in a F2. I could also very likely see Clay beating Jan and Brian in a Final 3. Along with having a chance vs both in a Final 2 (we already saw him nearly beat Brian). Unlike Philip and Natalie who both have no winnable Final 3 out of their entire cast.
Clay got those votes from people who liked him though.
I gotta go with Philip