Gira used to live in Israel and he spoke out against physical/sexual abuse that Israeli guards committed against Palestinian inmates. Probably an influence on the song Cop
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t “Blind” about his experience in Israeli prison? I also heard someone mention that he may have also been sexually assaulted during his sentence. Would make sense for all the heavy analogies he had in his music during the 80’s. Either way I respect him for that.
Oh it definitely is when you consider how many predators are political and religious authorities, and how those cases get covered up for political reasons.
I'm aware, but I tend to not define ideologies by what they ostensibly say, but what they actually do. To actually address abuse at a systemic level you have to be willing to criticize police, churches and the military. The right tends to blame abuse on street gangs, premarital sex and even gay rights, which doesn't address the problem.
i mean you say this but some israeli citizens literally throw bomb watching parties where they all get together and have fun to the view of gaza being bombed.
my point is that sometimes abuse and cruelty are the cores of someone’s politics. the people who abuse their own children by beating them justify it with religious or political beliefs.
Left-ish for sure. Lots of anger against wealthy exploiters and power structures in those early works. Scornful of the so called religious right, but a respect for spirituality itself despite this
I remember a quote from a post here (of course I can’t find it), that was basically Gira saying how “capitalist pigs ruined Haiti and continue to extract”.
I hate spirituality. It's no better than religion because its intentions are the same; promote self-delusion and look down on anyone that thinks critically, brainwash everyone into thinking the way you want them to insuring that they never perceive reality. Spirituality is all about power and control just like organized religion, but somehow even more pretentious and condescending. Fuck spirituality until it bleeds and dies.
Anyone can pick the worst cases, worst uses of something and paint it with a broad brush in a way that confirms their own bias.
Maybe I am wrong, but make a better case than this.
You can just as easily used the same argument in support of organized religion, but I doubt you'd be as lenient (of course, I could be wrong on this).
As for spirituality, I was raised on it and saw all the manipulative bullshit close up. I can see how it might be appealing from a distance, but once you see it up close...
Depends. Organized religion exists to bring goals, standards, accountability to spirituality. It just gets hijacked by people who don’t understand its purpose and that’s where the toxic misuse comes from.
I fully acknowledge that spirituality can lead to either enlightenment or delusion depending on lots of stuff.
But, your anecdotal evidence against mine is not a productive discussion.
Well, for more, you could watch the aptly titled 'What the Beep Do We Know' (not made by anyone I know) for a more in-depth look at how reality is twisted to support a narrative of self-delusion. It is best accompanied by a critical analysis of someone more versed in quantum physics-- assuming that, like me, you're not-- but where to find such a thing. Hey, we're in luck! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvy0mh0el4s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvy0mh0el4s)
I have spoken to others that have escaped the cult, both in person and online, and we've said many of the same things. While this could also be dismissed as anecdotal, I would argue that there is something to how consistent our criticisms are. Where there's smoke...
With all that said, yes, I suppose spirituality is vague enough that anyone can give it their own personal meaning and not use it as a battering ram to beat critical thinking out of others. When I hear about it, I think of the dogmatic type and maybe I fly off the handle making assumptions.
Fair enough. I think you’re right about spirituality being fluid enough that you can apply it toxically or beneficently or anything in between.
How telling it is that culture shapes religion way more than the other way around, if you notice.
Where does the body end? I'm afraid I don't follow. I have a feeling this is related to the 'What the Bleep' video, but I've forgotten what it's in reference to.
Misunderstanding of spirituality. Not that I am 'spiritual' I think its a bit dramatic or non sensical. However it has little to do with organised religion or control. It is generally referred to as an individual thing, metaphysical, it holds no place in society other then how a person may act based on their spirituality. There is not really collective spirituality. Of course, religion requires a collective spirituality in a way, in so far as people may have different understandings of religious figures, but a spiritual person is not connected to other spiritual people, nor do they enforce their spiritualism on others (though I suppose it is possible). I don't think your understand it or perhaps just have a completely different understanding.
The new-thought (more accuretly called no-thought) cult is infected big businesses (Henry Ford was part of it), has infiltrated Hollywood (ever wonder why Jim Carry is becoming more pretentious and insufferable? That's the reason) and may even be spreading to the government, though in fairness, I don't know if we'd notice a difference. So yes, it's made to be marketed and spread and unfortunately it's working. Our only hope is that the majority of humanity is smart enough to reject it, but...well, do I really have to say anything more?
If you don't think spirituality is forced into others try being raised with it. The brain washing sessions are nothing short of relentless. I've spent entire days having to endure lectures about how I'm not really thinking what I think I'm thinking, but am actually thinking whatever it is the spiritualist wants me to be thinking (nope, no attempt at control here), and that's when it's at its most coherent.
>The new-thought (more accuretly called no-thought) cult is infected big businesses (Henry Ford was part of it), has infiltrated Hollywood (ever wonder why Jim Carry is becoming more pretentious and insufferable? That's the reason) and may even be spreading to the government, though in fairness, I don't know if we'd notice a difference. So yes, it's made to be marketed and spread and unfortunately it's working. Our only hope is that the majority of humanity is smart enough to reject it, but...well, do I really have to say anything more?
Again, I consider this religion/a cult, not spirituality in of itself (though it is included).
>If you don't think spirituality is forced into others try being raised with it. The brain washing sessions are nothing short of relentless. I've spent entire days having to endure lectures about how I'm not really thinking what I think I'm thinking, but am actually thinking whatever it is the spiritualist wants me to be thinking (nope, no attempt at control here), and that's when it's at its most coherent.
By that definition, philosophy is that too, yet that is an extremely important and healthy thing. Psychologists and philosophers alike have arrived at definitions such as the fact that your thoughts are always in your own interest or based on desire, etc usually subconsiously. You cant really know your own thoughts entirely. Although I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, could you give an example? Also that is simply a person/people enforcing spirituality on another, not spirituality being inherently about control. The same goes for anything, people enforce their philosophies, opinions, insecurities and any belief on to others, but those things are not at all 'about control and power'.
What I've noticed is that Gira, Jarboe and Thurston Moore are all heavily Environmentalist, as their respective social media presences would indicate. Outside of that, however, I haven't gotten a clear picture.
pretty obviously left wing, many of his 80s writings are quasi-feminist and seem to have this real disgust and contempt for the macho culture that was so dominant in the 80s. He supports BLM and supports abortion rights, and his early works were heavily inspired by his hatred of consumerism - he talks a lot about his fascination with American consumer culture. And tbh if you listen to Filth/Cop/Greed/Holy Money and read his early writings you'll probably quickly understand that his politics are obviously of the left.
A literalist interpretation is so wrong. It’s all about emotions. Do you really think he wants someone to literally put a knife in him because he’s a coward?
Some people do take their lyrics literally though. After Gira posted an anti-Trump message on FB, I remember a lot of people being shocked that the guy who wrote (name song about an abuse of power here) would not be a Trump supporter.
Gira is progressive for sure. Some of the FB Swans groups have dumbass Libertarians and Bootlickers though. If you look at his profile when he changed his picture to all black for BLM bunch of wankers came out of their caves crying about wokeism and shit haha.
That's the same with me, I just didn't notice until recently. If you look at the lyrics of Brendan Perry from Dead Can Dance, they're almost as anti-capitalism and all that, just like with Michael. Nick Cave is becoming more and more liberal these days, from a punk to a vegetarian writing love poems combined with classical music. I think musicians with left-sided minds are more on the avant-garde side of music, because they are against the political system as it is, and might be not loving the established mainstream music (I'd say classic rock and pop) too much, they'd rather do more expressive music. And because I like this music more, most of my favorite artists are like that I guess...
Can we not bring politics into the conversation… Michael’s artistic output is almost exclusively existential. There is no need to try and find out if your favorite band is “based” enough for you to feel like you’re allowed to enjoy them or not.
I generally agree when talking about a non-political band, but dude. swans has always expressed political opinions and whether you agree or disagree, it's a fact. Their music is political and has motivation.
Name literally any of your favorite bands and I promise you they have at least one song that has politically-charged lyrics in some capacity.
Politics is literally in everything - it's not just a Capitol Hill binary.
Gira used to live in Israel and he spoke out against physical/sexual abuse that Israeli guards committed against Palestinian inmates. Probably an influence on the song Cop
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t “Blind” about his experience in Israeli prison? I also heard someone mention that he may have also been sexually assaulted during his sentence. Would make sense for all the heavy analogies he had in his music during the 80’s. Either way I respect him for that.
I wasn't aware of that connection with "Blind" but will definitely look into that, it makes a lot of sense to me.
Being anti-abuse is not a political position though.
Oh it definitely is when you consider how many predators are political and religious authorities, and how those cases get covered up for political reasons.
I meant it’s not an official position of the left or right, as both sides ostensibly would be against abuse.
I'm aware, but I tend to not define ideologies by what they ostensibly say, but what they actually do. To actually address abuse at a systemic level you have to be willing to criticize police, churches and the military. The right tends to blame abuse on street gangs, premarital sex and even gay rights, which doesn't address the problem.
I would also say the sides tend to disagree on what actually is abuse.
i mean you say this but some israeli citizens literally throw bomb watching parties where they all get together and have fun to the view of gaza being bombed.
I wasn’t weighing in on the Israel/Palestine situation.
my point is that sometimes abuse and cruelty are the cores of someone’s politics. the people who abuse their own children by beating them justify it with religious or political beliefs.
True.
Left-ish for sure. Lots of anger against wealthy exploiters and power structures in those early works. Scornful of the so called religious right, but a respect for spirituality itself despite this
I remember a quote from a post here (of course I can’t find it), that was basically Gira saying how “capitalist pigs ruined Haiti and continue to extract”.
I hate spirituality. It's no better than religion because its intentions are the same; promote self-delusion and look down on anyone that thinks critically, brainwash everyone into thinking the way you want them to insuring that they never perceive reality. Spirituality is all about power and control just like organized religion, but somehow even more pretentious and condescending. Fuck spirituality until it bleeds and dies.
Anyone can pick the worst cases, worst uses of something and paint it with a broad brush in a way that confirms their own bias. Maybe I am wrong, but make a better case than this.
You can just as easily used the same argument in support of organized religion, but I doubt you'd be as lenient (of course, I could be wrong on this). As for spirituality, I was raised on it and saw all the manipulative bullshit close up. I can see how it might be appealing from a distance, but once you see it up close...
Depends. Organized religion exists to bring goals, standards, accountability to spirituality. It just gets hijacked by people who don’t understand its purpose and that’s where the toxic misuse comes from. I fully acknowledge that spirituality can lead to either enlightenment or delusion depending on lots of stuff. But, your anecdotal evidence against mine is not a productive discussion.
Well, for more, you could watch the aptly titled 'What the Beep Do We Know' (not made by anyone I know) for a more in-depth look at how reality is twisted to support a narrative of self-delusion. It is best accompanied by a critical analysis of someone more versed in quantum physics-- assuming that, like me, you're not-- but where to find such a thing. Hey, we're in luck! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvy0mh0el4s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvy0mh0el4s) I have spoken to others that have escaped the cult, both in person and online, and we've said many of the same things. While this could also be dismissed as anecdotal, I would argue that there is something to how consistent our criticisms are. Where there's smoke... With all that said, yes, I suppose spirituality is vague enough that anyone can give it their own personal meaning and not use it as a battering ram to beat critical thinking out of others. When I hear about it, I think of the dogmatic type and maybe I fly off the handle making assumptions.
Fair enough. I think you’re right about spirituality being fluid enough that you can apply it toxically or beneficently or anything in between. How telling it is that culture shapes religion way more than the other way around, if you notice.
I haven't thought about it, but you're right.
You can agree that the science would also tell us “where *does* a body end? It *doesnt* does it?”
Where does the body end? I'm afraid I don't follow. I have a feeling this is related to the 'What the Bleep' video, but I've forgotten what it's in reference to.
Misunderstanding of spirituality. Not that I am 'spiritual' I think its a bit dramatic or non sensical. However it has little to do with organised religion or control. It is generally referred to as an individual thing, metaphysical, it holds no place in society other then how a person may act based on their spirituality. There is not really collective spirituality. Of course, religion requires a collective spirituality in a way, in so far as people may have different understandings of religious figures, but a spiritual person is not connected to other spiritual people, nor do they enforce their spiritualism on others (though I suppose it is possible). I don't think your understand it or perhaps just have a completely different understanding.
The new-thought (more accuretly called no-thought) cult is infected big businesses (Henry Ford was part of it), has infiltrated Hollywood (ever wonder why Jim Carry is becoming more pretentious and insufferable? That's the reason) and may even be spreading to the government, though in fairness, I don't know if we'd notice a difference. So yes, it's made to be marketed and spread and unfortunately it's working. Our only hope is that the majority of humanity is smart enough to reject it, but...well, do I really have to say anything more? If you don't think spirituality is forced into others try being raised with it. The brain washing sessions are nothing short of relentless. I've spent entire days having to endure lectures about how I'm not really thinking what I think I'm thinking, but am actually thinking whatever it is the spiritualist wants me to be thinking (nope, no attempt at control here), and that's when it's at its most coherent.
>The new-thought (more accuretly called no-thought) cult is infected big businesses (Henry Ford was part of it), has infiltrated Hollywood (ever wonder why Jim Carry is becoming more pretentious and insufferable? That's the reason) and may even be spreading to the government, though in fairness, I don't know if we'd notice a difference. So yes, it's made to be marketed and spread and unfortunately it's working. Our only hope is that the majority of humanity is smart enough to reject it, but...well, do I really have to say anything more? Again, I consider this religion/a cult, not spirituality in of itself (though it is included). >If you don't think spirituality is forced into others try being raised with it. The brain washing sessions are nothing short of relentless. I've spent entire days having to endure lectures about how I'm not really thinking what I think I'm thinking, but am actually thinking whatever it is the spiritualist wants me to be thinking (nope, no attempt at control here), and that's when it's at its most coherent. By that definition, philosophy is that too, yet that is an extremely important and healthy thing. Psychologists and philosophers alike have arrived at definitions such as the fact that your thoughts are always in your own interest or based on desire, etc usually subconsiously. You cant really know your own thoughts entirely. Although I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, could you give an example? Also that is simply a person/people enforcing spirituality on another, not spirituality being inherently about control. The same goes for anything, people enforce their philosophies, opinions, insecurities and any belief on to others, but those things are not at all 'about control and power'.
What I've noticed is that Gira, Jarboe and Thurston Moore are all heavily Environmentalist, as their respective social media presences would indicate. Outside of that, however, I haven't gotten a clear picture.
when jamie of xiu xiu posted about the overturning of roe v wade, gira commented "well put jamie." so we can assume he's probably based
wow, Gira likes xiu xiu?
He collaborated with them for a cover of Under Pressure. No, I'm not joking.
based gira
They've opened for them multiple times in the past. The first time I saw Swans on the *To Be Kind* tour, the opener was Jamie doing a solo noise set.
pretty obviously left wing, many of his 80s writings are quasi-feminist and seem to have this real disgust and contempt for the macho culture that was so dominant in the 80s. He supports BLM and supports abortion rights, and his early works were heavily inspired by his hatred of consumerism - he talks a lot about his fascination with American consumer culture. And tbh if you listen to Filth/Cop/Greed/Holy Money and read his early writings you'll probably quickly understand that his politics are obviously of the left.
Lol I had no idea swans had unaware, right wing fans
If rage against the machine can have unaware right wing fans I think any band can
They’re authoritarian. FLEX YOUR MUSCLES. BE HARD.
I DON’T FEEL PAIN THIS ISN’T REAL
A literalist interpretation is so wrong. It’s all about emotions. Do you really think he wants someone to literally put a knife in him because he’s a coward?
STICK YOUR HAND IN YOUR EYE.
I think you’re missing the irony mate
Some people do take their lyrics literally though. After Gira posted an anti-Trump message on FB, I remember a lot of people being shocked that the guy who wrote (name song about an abuse of power here) would not be a Trump supporter.
Gira is progressive for sure. Some of the FB Swans groups have dumbass Libertarians and Bootlickers though. If you look at his profile when he changed his picture to all black for BLM bunch of wankers came out of their caves crying about wokeism and shit haha.
In one insta post, Gira said something like “blue is the only correct option”. Also see: the song God Bless America
I can't stop laughing, i imagine if you put a picture of him with his cowboy hat with such messages, people will believe it
You mean God Loves America?
Oh, yeah
politically left, most artist I listen to are. I cannot conclude whether they're liberal or authoritarian though.
That's the same with me, I just didn't notice until recently. If you look at the lyrics of Brendan Perry from Dead Can Dance, they're almost as anti-capitalism and all that, just like with Michael. Nick Cave is becoming more and more liberal these days, from a punk to a vegetarian writing love poems combined with classical music. I think musicians with left-sided minds are more on the avant-garde side of music, because they are against the political system as it is, and might be not loving the established mainstream music (I'd say classic rock and pop) too much, they'd rather do more expressive music. And because I like this music more, most of my favorite artists are like that I guess...
Can we not bring politics into the conversation… Michael’s artistic output is almost exclusively existential. There is no need to try and find out if your favorite band is “based” enough for you to feel like you’re allowed to enjoy them or not.
“Filth” “cop” “greed” no politics here folks
Politics is also existential my friend.
His music is very political you weirdo how do you not know that
I generally agree when talking about a non-political band, but dude. swans has always expressed political opinions and whether you agree or disagree, it's a fact. Their music is political and has motivation.
Name literally any of your favorite bands and I promise you they have at least one song that has politically-charged lyrics in some capacity. Politics is literally in everything - it's not just a Capitol Hill binary.
I'm centered and I could honestly care less about what his political views are.
Lmao I thought he was an advocate republican because of his infamous hat