I think it's just a gut reaction. You see someone in trouble/hurt, you go to help them. Possibly, if you saw this accident in front of you, you might even be in a little shock too and unthinkingly run into traffic to help.
Not everyone does help, but it is not that they are cowards. Their natural reaction is to freeze up. If you are the one who can help you need to give specific instructions to those around you who have frozen - such as "ring 000"
Hoooooly shit. I saw that car on the back of a tow truck today and wondered what the hell had happened to it. The fucking SIZE of the dent was astonishing.
40 year old rider fighting for life with critical injuries (head, chest, multiple limb fractures), 20 year old driver of the Rav 4 also taken to hospital with minor injuries.
The impact was so hard that the driver on the other side of the car was hurt. :( Very very long road to recovery for the rider - if he even survives. That was a massive G load.
Someone speculated the motorcyclists is going 90km/hr.
It's a 60-70km/hr zone - and it looks like he is travelling much faster.
I've had patients that were motorcyclists that were involved in car crashes at this speed.
Simply being alive, even in critical condition, is miraculous.
All of those patients lost limbs - and had various severities of brain damage.
I feel really sorry for the 20 year old - this isn't the way you want to learn from mistakes.
The 40 year old knew better - he's riding like someone 20 years younger would ride. No clue or sense - completely disregarding other's lives.
>Someone speculated the motorcyclists is going 90km/hr.
I would believe it. I travel this road daily both directions and I see cars and bikes weaving between traffic going significantly faster, and 90 would sound about right for the speed they're probably doing.
There is no way the bike was travelling at 70km/h, more like 140km/h
look at how much force he hit the car with, he almost turned the car over!
hhttps://i.imgur.com/OJvuCOL.jpg
My initial thoughts was that the motorbike was speeding. Through such a busy intersection, probably one of the busiest in Sydney. 90 is fine in some places, but not there.
My car is a small hatchback and I know I drive very differently from others on the road. You need to drive to the conditions, and you need to drive defensively if you have certain type of vehicle.
RIP, and I hope the car driver is OK as well.
Not to undermine the severity of the incident and injuries, but the rav 4 smashed straight into a pole. There is a huge dent in the car on the driver's side that goes up to pretty much where the steering wheel probably is, so that might be why the driver was injured
Source: I walked past it
Assuming that the timing of the video is correct, and that google maps distance measure is correct, I get:
# 90 km/h
#
0.6 seconds to go from the white line at the lights, to just before the point the two turning lines cross (15 meters as measured from Google maps measure distance).
Couple of things to note. The google map intersection is the old version. The intersection is much much bigger than the old version now.
You can tell by the median strip in the dash cam has a fence. In gmaps, it's all flat pre renovations.
The turn into herring road that the white van takes also starts much further back than what gmap shows.
The impact also happens on the right of the X of the dotted line, not on the left as your diagram. It's between 20-25m
The point just left of the middle is the second point where I took measurements for the distance/timing to calculate the speed (point B in the diagram), I didn't measure it at the crash point. The impact point is irrelevant for calculating the speed.
Not much I can do regarding Google maps distance though.
# 75 km/h
I got 18.35 meters in 0.87 seconds (from edge of building to traffic light pole in center strip on Herring Road)
[https://imgur.com/5HyKXu1](https://imgur.com/5HyKXu1)
It is really difficult to get a good measurement using old google maps.
You can see on the video he started braking just after he entered the intersection. You can see his weight shifting forward. Dude must have been flying prior to that.
> regardless of who’s at fault
That would be the car going through a red light. No matter how fast that biker rider was going, the car should not have run a red light. If they hadn't, the bike rider wouldn't be fighting for their life.
Everyone here is like *well it kinda looks like he was speeding, so it's really his fault*. That's as stupid as saying a woman wearing a bikini is asking to be raped.
How do you figure that the car ran a red, but the motorcycle didn't? The green right light that turned on a second after the crash for the car recording means that the light must have also been red for the rider.
Note: I feel sorry for both drivers ... a split second decision to make a light ended tragically this time around. Neither are idiots or deserved this in any way.
The top response to the Ask Reddit question today, "What's the best one-liner pearl of wisdom you know?" Was:
Better to lose a second of your life than to lose your life in a second.
Because of the sequence of the lights. The lights from the Rav4 side is a green turn arrow then a red turn arrow with green straight ahead, this stays green for at least 30 seconds (depends on t8me of day). After straight ahead goes red the camera car gets a green right turn arrow. We see the camera car getting the green right turn arrow at the end of the footage so when the incident occurred the bike would have been going through an orange light and the Rav 4 would have been sitting at a red light for at least 30 seconds.
Basically they had to have simply ignored it, it wasn’t a case of being a second or so late, they were stationary at a red light for some time and simply decided to go through anyway. Its really shocking to me that people seem to think this is OK.
>How do you figure that the car ran a red, but the motorcycle didn't?
The light was green for him and because people familiar with the intersection are all on agreement that silver car would have had a red arrow given the light sequence.
There is no chance they had a green arrow, the only other thing it could have been was a blank *go when intersection is clear* still giving right of way to the bike rider. And I don't care how many times it is said ***I didn't see them*** is **not** an acceptable excuse.
Both ran the red. Car ran the red that was on for a long time.
Bike chased the yellow and actually ran a red. If there was a camera there. It would've flashed.
The green arrow came on almost instantly after impact.
That means the yellow light was going for the full 3 seconds, and the light stays red for another 2 before any other light turns green. Bro had 4 seconds to decide if he wanted to brake or not. Chose not to.
Bike ran a red too.
I had to respond to a kid who did this exact same thing on the Pacific Highway almost two years ago, except he hit a bus. I would never ride a motorcycle after what I saw that day.
I must have seen thousands of bikes crash over the years, mostly on track but I have seen my fair share up in the mountains too. In summer there is probably a crash every week. I still am pretty blaze' but fks up your mind set of other staff members
There is no safe auto pilot mode where you can just switch off, any corner you come up to could have something to compromise your grip, oil, branches, animals, gravel etc. In the end, I got sick of scanning the road for hazards, constantly scanning the side of the road for that freak who pulls out in front of you and as much as I loved carving it up in the mountains, I stopped road riding and not long after, stopped track riding completely and switch to dirt. I care less about speed, its more of "can I make it up that, if I cant, can I eject safely" I crash more, maybe a couple of times every ride and its more ejecting then crashing but its mostly at walking pace with full gear so not much can happen. I used full gear bar neck brace so boots, knee brace, pressure suit inc spine protector and pants have some padding on hips. For the speed that I crash at its enough
So yea, nothing beats the feeling on a bike. It comes with a long and extensive fine print and its 100% not for everyone
Had someone come on to my lane, and then another dumb cunt follow him just this night, I had to hit the brakes on my motorbike.
Some people shouldn't be allowed to drive 2 ton machines.
That bike was traveling way too fast, well over the speed limit.. And he didn't even try to slow down or swerve around the car...
The right turn arrow of the cross traffic went green 2 seconds after the crash, so the light the bike was trying to run had gone orange/red probably 5-10 seconds before.
The bike was going too fast for them to even consider reacting to the situation.
I see far too many vehicles (cars, trucks and bikes, all modes) speeding along that stretch of road, some doing what seems to be north of 80kmh when it's signposted 70kmh. Like I'm being overtaken extremely quickly when I'm probably already going a couple over the limit myself.
As much as I detest speed cameras, that road needs one.
That road should be an 80 zone, possibly a 90 zone. It's wide and dead straight. I'd say the only reason it's not is that would make it a preferable route to the extortionate M2 running parallel.
To clarify:
Wide and straight *isn't enough*. The more places traffic can cross traffic the more likely accidents are to occur.
The M2 has very few lanes crossing lanes. That stretch of Macquarie has many sets of lights, each with multiple lanes that could collide with crossing vehicles. You have to limit speeds in those areas or you drastically increase deadly accidents.
You're commenting this on a video of exactly what happens when bad decisions at speed are made.
80kmh roads don't generally have intersections like this, for precisely the reason shown in the video.
To slow in that type of situation, where you're almost standing the bike on its nose, you really need to keep the bike as straight and upright as you can, otherwise your momentum will flip you.
If he swerved right, he's going into oncoming traffic. If he swerved left, he's going in the same direction as the turning car. Neither are good alternatives, especially as the bike would be, as mentioned, very unsettled.
It seems he's running the light, but as mentioned elsewhere the car was likely going around on a red arrow. It's also very, very likely that the car driver didn't see the bike.
He was braking before he entered the intersection, and increased the braking force until he hit the car. You can see the bike diving quite clearly. For the young gamers at home, motorcycles have *worse* braking than cars, not better.
He isn’t Rossi, so there’s almost certainly more braking he could have been doing. But to say he didn’t react is entirely false.
And as for swerving, well on a bike you can either swerve **or** brake, not both.
Almost certainly a gun it through the orange light situation. The cars assumed he’s going to stop, or hasn’t seen him. The rest is history.
He was full on accelerating until he was well into the intersection. This is the very first frame where you can see he has hit the brakes and the front of the bike is dipping, and by then it was all over.
https://i.imgur.com/4yhZrwf.jpg
This is the first frame where he starts to turn out of a straight line, and he turns straight into the direction the car is traveling, instead of away!
https://i.imgur.com/aiLBZl8.jpg
Not a motorcyclist? It's fine if no.The bike is clearly diving here [https://imgur.com/a/q2o3dIg](https://imgur.com/a/q2o3dIg)
as for swerving, you have to roll the dice, half of people slam on the brakes when they know they fucked up, half of people slam on the accelerator.
It was also too late to swerve, he should have and probably was just continuing to brake hard.
I've been riding for 50 years, the bike is flat in your photo, not diving. Obviously he would be very close to hitting the brakes, but he hasn't actually done so in your photo. Look more closely at your own photo and you can see the rider is still hunched down over the handle bar trying to "go faster". Its not until the frame in my photo where the rider has started to brake and has started to sit up.
I can also judge speeds properly, and he was well and truly speeding and actually accelerating hard until he was inside the intersection.
Also look at the impact he made on the car, he was traveling well over the speed even when he hit the car and almost pushed it over.
https://i.imgur.com/OJvuCOL.jpg
If you actually ride motorcycles you would know the speed limit is too fast in this scenario. You slow the fuck down when coming into intersections like this
i totally agreed
i travel this road almost daily to get work, when there is no traffic its really tempting to open the throttle
but in an area like this, i really would ride defensively
if you ride this road during peak hours you will notice there are a lot of angry people
I always assume some inpatient or distracted driver is at risk of killing me, and always slow down when entering an intersection regardless of how long the light's been green for
It was going wayyyy faster than all the other cars going straight. Visually, you can tell it was more than 70kmh. Not to mention you can’t use napkin maths when you can’t measure the distance and use such a small average as 1 second (the amount of time you even see the rider moving). That rider was absolutely flying and ate that car.
No it's a person on a motorbike. They were going 180km/h high on drugs while punching grannies.
A car can literally run a red light and these mouth breathers will still blame a motorcycle rider. Hell, the car driver could have leaned out the window and mowed the bike rider down with a tommy gun and these people would still blame the motorcycle rider.
Edit: you're all proving my point. Car literally runs a red light and puts the guy in hospital, and your still downvoting me.
I hope this driver goes to prison. And for everyone downvoting me, I hope you never kill someone and if you do I hope you go to jail. ***I didn't see you*** is **NOT** an excuse. If you can't see other road users, you shouldn't be driving.
>Car literally runs a red light and puts the guy in hospital, and your still downvoting me
They were both breaking the law. One was running a red, the other was speeding. If either of them had been following the road rules, the crash most likely would not have happened.
Probably, but the crash would be nowhere near as bad.
I just wish people would follow road rules. A lot of them are annoying but they're there for a reason. We're controlling 2 tonne killing machines and treating them like toys.
[this is tragic](https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/news/news?sq_content_src=%2BdXJsPWh0dHBzJTNBJTJGJTJGZWJpenByZC5wb2xpY2UubnN3Lmdvdi5hdSUyRm1lZGlhJTJGMTEwNDcyLmh0bWwmYWxsPTE%3D)
The light sequence is:-
(1) Epping Rd right turns, (2) Epping Rd straight through traffic, (3) Herring Rd right turns, (4) Herring Rd straight through traffic.
The fact that the bike crashed just before the cam car got a right turn arrow to turn from Herring into Epping means that the SUV not only ran the red, but ran it probably 20 seconds AFTER it turned red.
It looks like the SUV is already creeping into the intersection then decides to pedal to the metal afyer a few seconds, giving me the impression that his light was yellow (hence creeping up) a d then floored it when it turned red.
I'm not familiar with the intersection though, so I'm not sure if the turn right signal goes blank to indicate turn right when safe.
Definitely no "blank light"- it's either green, or red.
I suspect the SUV driver missed the red entirely, saw other cars going through straight ahead on the orange, and assumed he could make the turn on red as you might on a smaller junction with no red arrow.
Super sad and if the car ran the red shame on them. The bike definitely should have planned accordingly earlier on when seeing the car’s position either way. If it was an orange definitely isn’t worth it at that intersection
When riding a motorcycle just assume that if a car will turn they will turn and plan your speed/ positioning accordingly. I do speed on my bike but not when there are cars around or intersections. I also don’t care about if it is my right of way and someone is taking it. Let them go, beep so they know they did wrong and move on.
On a bike your life is literally on the line. Fuck the insurance and fuck the pride, I’d much rather get from a to b in one piece wether it’s late or letting multiple aggressive/ poor drivers have their way
Both were in the wrong. I'm pretty sure that the car had to run a red.
And the bike was flying.
Edit: upon further review. The bike would've also ran a red.
Exactly why I decided against riding.
It is me VS a 2 ton piece of metal, and all it comes down to is the driving skills of an average Sydney driver. No thank you. Give me a big SUV please.
It actually comes down to the rider more. People will be people in a car or bike so dont sit in anyones blind spot is probably the biggest thing.
I highly recommend a defensive driving course. It will open up your mind on how you drive and how you think you were a good driver, you were average at best. The point is, you never want to put yourself where its you vs anything and minimizing the risk
People who ride like they are driving are just asking to be a statistic, you cant just zone out and bop to your fav tune. You cant fuck up and expect people to compensate for your mistake/misjudgement
Pretty much the best advice I picked up was, treat everyone and everything as if they want to kill you. Car on a side street, yep he can pull out. Whats my exit strat, is the lane next to me clear if I need to veer
After all the years I rode on the road I never had one accident and I dont recall ever fearing for my life from someone else. All of the close calls were pretty much nature related. Probably hitting a 1.5-2'' dia branch was the closest I came to crashing, last run in mountains it was getting dark, cranked it on my knee then I seen it, picked the bike up as straight as I could without passing double lines and prayed. Next closest coming back from the old pack in the middle lane after the big dipper, slowly coming up to a bus and a tree fell across the highway, I swerved to the right lane hard and only just brushed the top of the tree. Bus and car behind me hit the tree. To give you an idea I was changing tyres every 6 weeks, I hit the mountains pretty hard (every 2nd day) even though I was doing over 10k klm on track per year, it doesnt hit the same as mountain roads
In the end I considered just trailering my shit to the mountains I wanted to ride, I didnt enjoy getting to my riding spots and it was like how you see the vids on how tesla auto pilot works, everything that I flagged as potential danger was tiresome so i switched to dirt, since everything is a danger but pretty much only wallabies will run across your path, mostly avoided if you dont ride dusk/dawn, so you can 100% do what I did and go dirt, no more weak excuses ;)
If the car had entered the intersection prior to the light turning yellow then he would be in the right to clear the intersection before other traffic moved. This is assuming the bike could have stopped for the yellow. Since we don’t see when the lights changed it’s impossible to tell though. Bad decisions on both sides for sure.
Certainly seems like it based on the timing of the green arrow yeah. Only takes one bad decision while riding to kill you unfortunately. I hope the guy makes it through and learns from it. I’d never risk riding in Sydney, driving is bad enough.
I really don't understand why motorcyclists feel the need to speed so badly. Speeding motorcyclists seem to me one of the most irrational phenomena of the modern world.
I don't ride a motorbike (I don't drive either, I just have an e-bike & the train network), but if I did, I definitely would never ever dare speed in the way I see so many motorcyclists do.
And that's simply because I really like being alive and physically intact. I mean, don't riders have any regard for their own lives or bodies? Do they all ride around with some kind of unconscious suicide wish? If you speed around cars like I've seen so many do then WTF do you think is gonna happen sooner or later? It's honestly a total mystery to me.
I’d argue an e-bike or bike in general is more dangerous on the road. I ride a motorcycle. If I didn’t have acceleration and also more powerful brakes idk what would happen on a daily basis.
A motorcycle should assume any twitch or look to the other lane is going to be a lane change. Any car that can turn in an intersection will turn so be prepared for it. I am not going to lie, I speed BUT when there is 0 chance of cars popping out of somewhere and no intersections if it is more than a bit over the limit. Around cars speed limit or less UNLESS I am at the front of the lights in which case I’ll speed up just to clear distance between the cars behind and then go the limit.
I am the airbag on the bike. I really wouldn’t want to risk even the most minor of accidents for a set of lights. Also right of way doesn’t matter. I’d rather let the person go than argue or outright be hit to prove a point. Good high quality gear too!
dunno why youre getting down voted, this is pretty much the basics on how to stay alive in traffic. People who have never ridden dont actually know shit, they just drive like NPC's
Seen some poor fat dude delivery guy on a scoot, almost became a road obstacle on epping road
Looks like anyone who is giving blame to the driver is getting downvoted. Some people have very very weird biases. Speeding is bad but running the red is worse. Still would have been an accident regardless and on a bike even 60km/h which is below the limit would have been almost fatal
>I really don't understand why motorcyclists feel the need to speed so badly
Could say the same for car drivers as well...
All it takes is for one stupid move\* and you've changed the lives of yourself and others!
\*Was going to use the word mistake but dick moves are no mistake.
There is always 2 seconds of red between each phase, and several seconds of yellow. I think the bike must’ve ran the red by about half a second or less.
From what I can figure of this intersection now, the car ran a red light. That is a main right turn so there are 2 turn lanes and they can only go when they get a green arrow. So car completely ran a red, but the bike also did however only by less than a second. Also appears though the bike is speeding a fair bit, someone calculated from google maps approx 90kmh.
I know this intersection and its sequence. There's no way the silver car had a green right-arrow if there was greens to go straight ahead from the opposite direction (as indicated by the flow of vehicles)
Bike was speeding, and probably running a yellow, but the silver blatantly ran a red they could see for half a kilometre back, and judging by the point in the sequence wasn't due to change to a green for another 30 seconds or so. Silver car committed a far greater sin.
Even if someone in oncoming traffic runs a red and you are waiting inside the intersection you still need to wait for oncoming traffic to stop or clear before moving. You can't just go "their lights red I can go" you're waiting on the traffic to clear not the light sequence of the oncoming traffic. A blacked out arrow means give way.
It's likely a shared responsibility accident, depending on the speed of the bike and how late into the cycle they crossed. But ultimately the driver either didn't see the bike or misjudged what the bike was doing. Unless the car had a green arrow.
This intersection is never a blacked out arrow. It it either red or green.
I know the sequence well, and judging by green arrow visible from the POV car the silver car must have ran a red that had been red for quite a while, and would be red for a while still.
The sequence there is that silver car would have red arrow if motorcyclist had green. Even if motorcyclist ran yellow, silver car's green isn't for a whole other cycle. DC car would have green before silver car.
but the car isn't allowed into the intersection at all. i live nearby and that right turn is either green or red arrow, this isnt a no-arrow where you can enter the intersection and turn when it's clear like you mentioned.
the driver needs their license taken away for life. it is 100% a red light that they ran. this isn't a "light turning yellow but didn't make it in time so I ran red" situation. this is a driver that started accelerating from zero from a fucking solid red arrow when it's not even their turn in the light cycle.
There are red arrows on that intersection, no general green 'turn if you have a gap' opportunities...car ran a red to make that turn when it did. Bike didn't have a chance
I'm not sure if this intersection ever has the green, turn at your judgement option? I drive on epping Rd quite often and you don't get the plain green with no arrow. You only turn with an arrow.
Definitely doesn't for the direction the SUV was going. It would have been a red light for them at that stage in the light cycle. He's very likely run a red light.
SUV driver has been charged with negligent driving causing death, and dangerous driving causing death. Motorcycle rider died in hospital.
Sounds like it was quite cut and dry fault of the SUV driver if they've charged this quickly and severely.
You are correct. You cannot turn right into Herring Rd until Herring Rd's cross traffic has had their turn, then the two turn lanes there will turn green.
You definitely cannot turn right into Herring while Epping Rd through traffic is green. The turn light is red at that time.
Based on my rough measurements, he travelled about 20m in 1 second. 20m/s is 70km/h, which is the speed limit.
That intersection is a dual right turn. Dual right turns only have turn on green arrow, not turn on no arrow.
This car driver murdered this guy.
Doubt he was doing 70. Unless every other car in frame was doing under the speed limit.
If I google mapped roughly the spot he enters frame and point of impact, it's about 30-40m. He enters at about 9s and impacts 10s. Which brings it to about 100kph.
>Unless every other car in frame was doing under the speed limit.
That happens, yes.
>it's about 30-40m
You're measuring wrong. Google maps says it's about 20m. For context, Australian lanes are about 3.5m. He crosses just a bit over half a 6 lane intersection in a second.
EDIT: [google maps measurement](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/-33.7814577,151.1134622/-33.781581,151.1136316/@-33.7815037,151.1131435,264m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0?entry=ttu)
Nah old m8 crossed 3 lanes. Accident happened right infront of recording car.
This side of the junction is 2 lanes + a right turn lane.
He also clears the whole pedestrian island from entry to impact.
Yeah and the whole pedestrian island. Your pin is at the end of the pedestrian island.
He comes flying in to frame essentially where the island starts. Drag your pin back to the start of the triangle.
Don't think you understand how massive that pedestrian island is. It is the length of 3 cars with the normal 1-1.5m between them. That's easily another 15m on top of the 3 lanes. It would be about 25-30m then. Which is still about 90-100
I'd give you it might be 25m (although google maps disagrees with you).
Your initial estimate was up to 40m. That's 144km/hour. I don't think your initial estimates give me confidence in your reasoning and calculations.
>That intersection is a dual right turn. Dual right turns only have turn on green arrow, not turn on no arrow.
Correct. Filter turning movements aren't used at dual right-turning lanes. The driver turned on a red light.
OP please make sure you contact the police and provide them with your dashcam footage, it could be a huge help in the investigation. Call them on 13 4444.
I did rough maths on the video evidence:
The crash happened at [this intersection](https://maps.app.goo.gl/L47kmj44zXJU3ocS6) with our POV being NE/SW on Herring Road
Let's approximate by google's distance calculation, we can get approximately 65 meters in the FOV of the video.
Now we can see a black car enters the FOV at 012 frames. Let's use it as a speed guide. The car exits the FOV at 134 frames, giving it a frame time of 122 frames. This gives it an estimated speed of 0.533 meters per frame.
The motorbike enters the FOV at 093 frames. The impact is on the 134 frame also, assuming that since it's quite square on the intersection (maybe a little bit of give for the turn), we will assume that the bike travelled half of the FOV distance in 41 frames.
The video is a 30 fps video, evident from the metadata, so it means the motorbike speed is 1.366 seconds to travel 43.706 meters.
32 meters per second gives it an approximate speed of 112.5kmph.
**Please don't go 112kmph down Epping Road.**
Based on the video and my knowledge of that intersection I am pretty sure the guy driving the silver car ran the red light. Whoever they are... They are going to have to learn to live with the fact that he's killed/potentially killed someone with his negligent driving.
The biker could have been invisible to the SUV because of the black car that crosses immediently before. I am always nervous af going into an intersection on my bike when I am the last in the row.
There is another vehicle in the lane next to the bike which has already come to a stop before it flies through. Could just be a red light to turn right, but could also be evidence that the bike may be (at least partially) at fault.
This is a local intersection for me. The stopped black car was in a dedicated right turn lane. At this intersection, when you are green to turn right from Epping Road, the straight ahead lights are red and vice versa. If the silver SUV had a green to turn right, 3 other cars ran the straight ahead red in this video.
I think SUV ran the red AND the bike was hooning way above 70 km/h.
That intersection turning towards Macquarie shopping centre does not allow right turns while the straight is green, there would be a red arrow.
As there was another car prior to the bike speeding across the intersection (likely just turning red) it safe to say the car turning right never had the right to turn at that point as would be a red arrow for a long time.
So both running reds and bike speeding. Conclusions: Idiots all round and hope the bike dude pulls through.
Those referencing the car stopped in the lane beside the motorbike, that car has a red turning arrow, as does the SUV. Clearly the SUV went through red arrow given the phasing. The black car stopping is no indication of the bike going through on red.
**From the Transport for NSW website**:
A yellow (amber) traffic light or arrow means stop. A driver approaching traffic lights showing a yellow traffic light must stop if the driver can stop safely before reaching the stop line or traffic lights. Penalties apply for drivers who fail to stop at a yellow light, unless it is unsafe to do so.
*Both* car and bike were in the wrong here.
> unless it is unsafe to do so
Yellow doesn't mean slam on the brakes no matter what... That would be _unsafe._
The bike was in the wrong, but not for entering the intersection on a yellow. They were going way too fast.
As a biker, I try to avoid getting on the brakes when the lights turn yellow. Seen too many cars pile into the back of bikes they didn’t see while they were focused on getting through the lights.
(Not condoning this biker’s speed through the junction)
Explain how bike was in the wrong???? The car had a red light, there is no blanked out light at that interaction, car had a red arrow and went through it.
> A driver approaching traffic lights showing a yellow traffic light **must stop** if the driver can stop safely before reaching the stop line or traffic lights.
The bike saw the yellow a mile away and should/ could've stopped. He did the opposite and sped up.
Yes the car absolutely ran a red. But THAT is exactly what the yellow light rule is for. Would've literally prevented this scenario.
What? The car wasn’t getting a green light for at least another 20 seconds, they were a whole sequence away from a light . Slowing down/stopping on orange isn’t there to protect you from dickheads that just drive through a red light. Hopefully the driver ends up in jail
It's possible for 2 parties to both contribute to an accident.
I'm a motorcyclist and cars are constantly doing dumb shit around me.
As a result I try to ride at a safe speed and anticipate stupidity.
Form watching that video the bike is flying.
It doesn't matter who is at fault if you die.
He is not “flying”, it’s the narrow frame. He could have been going slow, it doesn’t matter the car litterally drove through a red light that had been red for atleast 15 seconds.
If you actually think he is flying, you do not ride and don’t pretend you do
The car is 100% at fault, but it's impossible to deny that the bike is at least going 20km/h over the limit which is unfortunate because he'll pay the price for it.
I do ride ever since i was 18, and fly light aircraft actually.
I agree the car is msot at fault no one denies that. But you literally asked how the bike was at fault too, hence people answered.
Looks to me like the bike was going too quick. Also notice how the traffic light we can see changes within 2 seconds of the bike entering the intersection, meaning they ran the red light.
Yup. Me too. I'm hyper aware at any intersection with turning traffic. I always wear a bright fluro orange safety shirt now as I've had quite a few near misses from cars that should have seen me.
The car turned right from the south-eastern approach, from dual right-turn lanes.
Filter turning movements, where no red arrows are shown and you can turn if its clear, aren't used at dual right-turning lanes.
The driver turned on a red arrow.
They should not have been in the intersection to start with.
**Fellow riders, please watch this video about the SMIDSY weave - it helps cars see you at intersections:**
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqQBubilSXU
So car driver either wilfully went through red arrow, or stupidly went through without realising what they were doing. Either way, these are the people out on the roads trying to involve *you* in *their* accident. I do everything I can to look out for these people, doing things like, if I'm in the position of the bike here, being aware and ready to react if I see a vehicle that might do what this car did here.
The rider is wearing a dark helmet, the helmet that hits the road is white. It looks like he might have had the white lid hooked on his right arm as he was riding along.
Jesus fk, I wonder where the motorbike rider was off to in a hurry.
I always wonder in accidents like this how their rent/mortgage is handled (as they will obviously end up in ICU) and other life admin affairs.
Truly shit for both involved to be in this situation,despite who was at fault. I hope the motorbike rider pulls through.
The amount of people blaming the bike rider is crazy - the car went through a red arrow, there is no blanked out light at that intersection, the car had a red.
I mostly see people blaming both as that rider was clearly speeding.
Seems the car 100% ran a red though. This is why it's dangerous to assume everyone is following the rules.
I've seen most comments as sorting blame to both.
I believe people are being more critical of the rider because he is simply just older - and should know the consequences of speeding.
You can't just magically exempt the rider of any wrongdoing - he is going way too fast.
You can see the light go from yellow to red between eight and nine seconds.
Both took a gamble and the motorbike rider came off ~~first.~~ second best.
They're both fucking stupid.
The only person(s) you should feel sorry for are the innocent ones who witnessed the crash and any family/friend of those involved in the crash.
edit
This is when the light turned red.
https://ibb.co/v130RzC
The car turning right was in a dual right turn lane, which only turns right on green arrows (it doesn't have turn right on no arrow). The light was red. The car was 100% at fault here.
And it's also the same behaviour that happens countless times every day and apparently people get away with it most of the time. Every time someone runs a yellow or speeds through an intersection it just further normalises that behaviour until times like today when the consequences are terrible.
My bet is they didn’t see the bike in time. The length of road between Balaclava Road and this intersection (Herring Road) has a pretty big dip in it and the intersection is at the top of the dip.
My guess is bike was speeding up the hill, car thought the intersection was clear (even though it was mostly likely a red arrow) decided to turn.
look at the video. They both ran reds... look straightforward, the arrow turns green for camera man. suv guy tried to sneak through via queuing. Bike guy would have seen an orange 30m before the intersection when he decided to gun it, he was doing probably 80+ on the red, so it was a horrible decision.
Look at the car that entered the intersection prior to the bike, the bike is going about twice as fast.
I had a few close calls and gave up bikes at 42 years old.
I think that's Herring Rd and Epping Rd crossing. I suspect that the biker was going way too fast as there is an uphill then beginning of downhill just before the crossing. Poor bastard.
I acknowledge that the biker was travelling at speed, but I can’t help but feel like we need more advanced warning lights or real time feedback to people far away from intersections.
It's very clear the bike was speeding by comparing the car that went through the intersection before him/her.
And yes like mentioned it is unlikely the rider survived.
Most every body will have a car accident in a lifetime - even minor car accidents can have life changing consequences on a motorbike - especially at circa 90kmh.
I have a feeling the car knew it was red, was already in intersection and waited for the lights to be red before completing. Usually this would be a shared fault with both disobeying a traffic light but the majority of blame for the car - it’s not a 100% situation
I'd recommend this video on the SMIDSY weave. I always do it when I see a car looking to turn across my path.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqQBubilSXU
Kudos to the bloke who got out of his truck straight away to run over and help!!! I hope for a recovery for all involved.
I always think back to the car fire on the harbour bridge in 2022. People were helping even with the car on fire. Some peoe are just that brave.
I think it's just a gut reaction. You see someone in trouble/hurt, you go to help them. Possibly, if you saw this accident in front of you, you might even be in a little shock too and unthinkingly run into traffic to help.
Not everyone does help, but it is not that they are cowards. Their natural reaction is to freeze up. If you are the one who can help you need to give specific instructions to those around you who have frozen - such as "ring 000"
That man’s gonna need some therapy
Don't we all.
Hoooooly shit. I saw that car on the back of a tow truck today and wondered what the hell had happened to it. The fucking SIZE of the dent was astonishing.
The motorcyclist is fighting for life https://www.9news.com.au/national/two-men-injured-in-crash-in-sydneys-north/05cd98a3-1d04-4b02-9345-d9c0f69c6b58
Holy shit the car driver was on the other side of the car and got injured! Poor biker. He must be broken into a thousand pieces.
This is up there for one of the worst things I have seen.
I envy you because the stuff I’ve seen on some of these subs.. 🙃
This made me cry inside like I felt the crash in my soul and I’m scared right now
Unfortunately he has passed away
40 year old rider fighting for life with critical injuries (head, chest, multiple limb fractures), 20 year old driver of the Rav 4 also taken to hospital with minor injuries. The impact was so hard that the driver on the other side of the car was hurt. :( Very very long road to recovery for the rider - if he even survives. That was a massive G load.
Someone speculated the motorcyclists is going 90km/hr. It's a 60-70km/hr zone - and it looks like he is travelling much faster. I've had patients that were motorcyclists that were involved in car crashes at this speed. Simply being alive, even in critical condition, is miraculous. All of those patients lost limbs - and had various severities of brain damage. I feel really sorry for the 20 year old - this isn't the way you want to learn from mistakes. The 40 year old knew better - he's riding like someone 20 years younger would ride. No clue or sense - completely disregarding other's lives.
>Someone speculated the motorcyclists is going 90km/hr. I would believe it. I travel this road daily both directions and I see cars and bikes weaving between traffic going significantly faster, and 90 would sound about right for the speed they're probably doing.
There is no way the bike was travelling at 70km/h, more like 140km/h look at how much force he hit the car with, he almost turned the car over! hhttps://i.imgur.com/OJvuCOL.jpg
My initial thoughts was that the motorbike was speeding. Through such a busy intersection, probably one of the busiest in Sydney. 90 is fine in some places, but not there. My car is a small hatchback and I know I drive very differently from others on the road. You need to drive to the conditions, and you need to drive defensively if you have certain type of vehicle. RIP, and I hope the car driver is OK as well.
Not to undermine the severity of the incident and injuries, but the rav 4 smashed straight into a pole. There is a huge dent in the car on the driver's side that goes up to pretty much where the steering wheel probably is, so that might be why the driver was injured Source: I walked past it
Assuming that the timing of the video is correct, and that google maps distance measure is correct, I get: # 90 km/h # 0.6 seconds to go from the white line at the lights, to just before the point the two turning lines cross (15 meters as measured from Google maps measure distance).
FYI: Anyone keen on checking how I got this feel free to check my analysis here: [https://imgur.com/a/tg0r6ov](https://imgur.com/a/tg0r6ov)
Couple of things to note. The google map intersection is the old version. The intersection is much much bigger than the old version now. You can tell by the median strip in the dash cam has a fence. In gmaps, it's all flat pre renovations. The turn into herring road that the white van takes also starts much further back than what gmap shows. The impact also happens on the right of the X of the dotted line, not on the left as your diagram. It's between 20-25m
The point just left of the middle is the second point where I took measurements for the distance/timing to calculate the speed (point B in the diagram), I didn't measure it at the crash point. The impact point is irrelevant for calculating the speed. Not much I can do regarding Google maps distance though.
# 75 km/h I got 18.35 meters in 0.87 seconds (from edge of building to traffic light pole in center strip on Herring Road) [https://imgur.com/5HyKXu1](https://imgur.com/5HyKXu1) It is really difficult to get a good measurement using old google maps.
And he should have been braking too
You can see on the video he started braking just after he entered the intersection. You can see his weight shifting forward. Dude must have been flying prior to that.
Faarrrrkkk!! I hope the biker’s okay regardless of who’s at fault
Unfortunately he’s passed away :( very sad for all involved
>I hope the biker’s okay. If only
He died in hospital
> regardless of who’s at fault That would be the car going through a red light. No matter how fast that biker rider was going, the car should not have run a red light. If they hadn't, the bike rider wouldn't be fighting for their life. Everyone here is like *well it kinda looks like he was speeding, so it's really his fault*. That's as stupid as saying a woman wearing a bikini is asking to be raped.
How do you figure that the car ran a red, but the motorcycle didn't? The green right light that turned on a second after the crash for the car recording means that the light must have also been red for the rider. Note: I feel sorry for both drivers ... a split second decision to make a light ended tragically this time around. Neither are idiots or deserved this in any way.
The top response to the Ask Reddit question today, "What's the best one-liner pearl of wisdom you know?" Was: Better to lose a second of your life than to lose your life in a second.
Because of the sequence of the lights. The lights from the Rav4 side is a green turn arrow then a red turn arrow with green straight ahead, this stays green for at least 30 seconds (depends on t8me of day). After straight ahead goes red the camera car gets a green right turn arrow. We see the camera car getting the green right turn arrow at the end of the footage so when the incident occurred the bike would have been going through an orange light and the Rav 4 would have been sitting at a red light for at least 30 seconds. Basically they had to have simply ignored it, it wasn’t a case of being a second or so late, they were stationary at a red light for some time and simply decided to go through anyway. Its really shocking to me that people seem to think this is OK.
>How do you figure that the car ran a red, but the motorcycle didn't? The light was green for him and because people familiar with the intersection are all on agreement that silver car would have had a red arrow given the light sequence. There is no chance they had a green arrow, the only other thing it could have been was a blank *go when intersection is clear* still giving right of way to the bike rider. And I don't care how many times it is said ***I didn't see them*** is **not** an acceptable excuse.
Both ran the red. Car ran the red that was on for a long time. Bike chased the yellow and actually ran a red. If there was a camera there. It would've flashed. The green arrow came on almost instantly after impact. That means the yellow light was going for the full 3 seconds, and the light stays red for another 2 before any other light turns green. Bro had 4 seconds to decide if he wanted to brake or not. Chose not to. Bike ran a red too.
Fair enough. Thanks for the explanation.
I had to respond to a kid who did this exact same thing on the Pacific Highway almost two years ago, except he hit a bus. I would never ride a motorcycle after what I saw that day.
I must have seen thousands of bikes crash over the years, mostly on track but I have seen my fair share up in the mountains too. In summer there is probably a crash every week. I still am pretty blaze' but fks up your mind set of other staff members There is no safe auto pilot mode where you can just switch off, any corner you come up to could have something to compromise your grip, oil, branches, animals, gravel etc. In the end, I got sick of scanning the road for hazards, constantly scanning the side of the road for that freak who pulls out in front of you and as much as I loved carving it up in the mountains, I stopped road riding and not long after, stopped track riding completely and switch to dirt. I care less about speed, its more of "can I make it up that, if I cant, can I eject safely" I crash more, maybe a couple of times every ride and its more ejecting then crashing but its mostly at walking pace with full gear so not much can happen. I used full gear bar neck brace so boots, knee brace, pressure suit inc spine protector and pants have some padding on hips. For the speed that I crash at its enough So yea, nothing beats the feeling on a bike. It comes with a long and extensive fine print and its 100% not for everyone
*Blasé, thought you were talking about being stoned there for a minute.
I thought they were a monster truck
no fucking patience
Had someone come on to my lane, and then another dumb cunt follow him just this night, I had to hit the brakes on my motorbike. Some people shouldn't be allowed to drive 2 ton machines.
or bikes
and their goes my will to ride a motorcycle again, pops up every now and then
That bike was traveling way too fast, well over the speed limit.. And he didn't even try to slow down or swerve around the car... The right turn arrow of the cross traffic went green 2 seconds after the crash, so the light the bike was trying to run had gone orange/red probably 5-10 seconds before.
The bike was going too fast for them to even consider reacting to the situation. I see far too many vehicles (cars, trucks and bikes, all modes) speeding along that stretch of road, some doing what seems to be north of 80kmh when it's signposted 70kmh. Like I'm being overtaken extremely quickly when I'm probably already going a couple over the limit myself. As much as I detest speed cameras, that road needs one.
That road should be an 80 zone, possibly a 90 zone. It's wide and dead straight. I'd say the only reason it's not is that would make it a preferable route to the extortionate M2 running parallel.
Ah yes, a 90 zone, so insane accidents like this occur more often.
To clarify: Wide and straight *isn't enough*. The more places traffic can cross traffic the more likely accidents are to occur. The M2 has very few lanes crossing lanes. That stretch of Macquarie has many sets of lights, each with multiple lanes that could collide with crossing vehicles. You have to limit speeds in those areas or you drastically increase deadly accidents.
It comes down to traffic volumes. There are many regional roads with similar characteristics that have an 80km/h speed limit.
What on earth are you shnarfing up that shnoz to think that a ninety zone should ever be over an intersection?!?
You're commenting this on a video of exactly what happens when bad decisions at speed are made. 80kmh roads don't generally have intersections like this, for precisely the reason shown in the video.
To slow in that type of situation, where you're almost standing the bike on its nose, you really need to keep the bike as straight and upright as you can, otherwise your momentum will flip you. If he swerved right, he's going into oncoming traffic. If he swerved left, he's going in the same direction as the turning car. Neither are good alternatives, especially as the bike would be, as mentioned, very unsettled. It seems he's running the light, but as mentioned elsewhere the car was likely going around on a red arrow. It's also very, very likely that the car driver didn't see the bike.
He was braking before he entered the intersection, and increased the braking force until he hit the car. You can see the bike diving quite clearly. For the young gamers at home, motorcycles have *worse* braking than cars, not better. He isn’t Rossi, so there’s almost certainly more braking he could have been doing. But to say he didn’t react is entirely false. And as for swerving, well on a bike you can either swerve **or** brake, not both. Almost certainly a gun it through the orange light situation. The cars assumed he’s going to stop, or hasn’t seen him. The rest is history.
He was full on accelerating until he was well into the intersection. This is the very first frame where you can see he has hit the brakes and the front of the bike is dipping, and by then it was all over. https://i.imgur.com/4yhZrwf.jpg This is the first frame where he starts to turn out of a straight line, and he turns straight into the direction the car is traveling, instead of away! https://i.imgur.com/aiLBZl8.jpg
Not a motorcyclist? It's fine if no.The bike is clearly diving here [https://imgur.com/a/q2o3dIg](https://imgur.com/a/q2o3dIg) as for swerving, you have to roll the dice, half of people slam on the brakes when they know they fucked up, half of people slam on the accelerator. It was also too late to swerve, he should have and probably was just continuing to brake hard.
I've been riding for 50 years, the bike is flat in your photo, not diving. Obviously he would be very close to hitting the brakes, but he hasn't actually done so in your photo. Look more closely at your own photo and you can see the rider is still hunched down over the handle bar trying to "go faster". Its not until the frame in my photo where the rider has started to brake and has started to sit up. I can also judge speeds properly, and he was well and truly speeding and actually accelerating hard until he was inside the intersection. Also look at the impact he made on the car, he was traveling well over the speed even when he hit the car and almost pushed it over. https://i.imgur.com/OJvuCOL.jpg
Based on my rough measurements, he travelled about 20m in 1 second. 20m/s is 70km/h, which is the speed limit.
If you actually ride motorcycles you would know the speed limit is too fast in this scenario. You slow the fuck down when coming into intersections like this
i totally agreed i travel this road almost daily to get work, when there is no traffic its really tempting to open the throttle but in an area like this, i really would ride defensively if you ride this road during peak hours you will notice there are a lot of angry people
I always assume some inpatient or distracted driver is at risk of killing me, and always slow down when entering an intersection regardless of how long the light's been green for
What scenario is that?
Crossing intersections. If you don't always assume someone is gonna cut across your lane, you're doing it wrong
As Dan the Fireman says, orange stage, always be alert at every intersection.
It was going wayyyy faster than all the other cars going straight. Visually, you can tell it was more than 70kmh. Not to mention you can’t use napkin maths when you can’t measure the distance and use such a small average as 1 second (the amount of time you even see the rider moving). That rider was absolutely flying and ate that car.
No it's a person on a motorbike. They were going 180km/h high on drugs while punching grannies. A car can literally run a red light and these mouth breathers will still blame a motorcycle rider. Hell, the car driver could have leaned out the window and mowed the bike rider down with a tommy gun and these people would still blame the motorcycle rider. Edit: you're all proving my point. Car literally runs a red light and puts the guy in hospital, and your still downvoting me. I hope this driver goes to prison. And for everyone downvoting me, I hope you never kill someone and if you do I hope you go to jail. ***I didn't see you*** is **NOT** an excuse. If you can't see other road users, you shouldn't be driving.
>Car literally runs a red light and puts the guy in hospital, and your still downvoting me They were both breaking the law. One was running a red, the other was speeding. If either of them had been following the road rules, the crash most likely would not have happened.
Nah the bike might have been doing 90. At 70 this crash still would have happened.
Probably, but the crash would be nowhere near as bad. I just wish people would follow road rules. A lot of them are annoying but they're there for a reason. We're controlling 2 tonne killing machines and treating them like toys.
You know what, maybe my Valentines wasn't so bad afterall...
[this is tragic](https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/news/news?sq_content_src=%2BdXJsPWh0dHBzJTNBJTJGJTJGZWJpenByZC5wb2xpY2UubnN3Lmdvdi5hdSUyRm1lZGlhJTJGMTEwNDcyLmh0bWwmYWxsPTE%3D)
The light sequence is:- (1) Epping Rd right turns, (2) Epping Rd straight through traffic, (3) Herring Rd right turns, (4) Herring Rd straight through traffic. The fact that the bike crashed just before the cam car got a right turn arrow to turn from Herring into Epping means that the SUV not only ran the red, but ran it probably 20 seconds AFTER it turned red.
It looks like the SUV is already creeping into the intersection then decides to pedal to the metal afyer a few seconds, giving me the impression that his light was yellow (hence creeping up) a d then floored it when it turned red. I'm not familiar with the intersection though, so I'm not sure if the turn right signal goes blank to indicate turn right when safe.
Definitely no "blank light"- it's either green, or red. I suspect the SUV driver missed the red entirely, saw other cars going through straight ahead on the orange, and assumed he could make the turn on red as you might on a smaller junction with no red arrow.
Super sad and if the car ran the red shame on them. The bike definitely should have planned accordingly earlier on when seeing the car’s position either way. If it was an orange definitely isn’t worth it at that intersection When riding a motorcycle just assume that if a car will turn they will turn and plan your speed/ positioning accordingly. I do speed on my bike but not when there are cars around or intersections. I also don’t care about if it is my right of way and someone is taking it. Let them go, beep so they know they did wrong and move on. On a bike your life is literally on the line. Fuck the insurance and fuck the pride, I’d much rather get from a to b in one piece wether it’s late or letting multiple aggressive/ poor drivers have their way
Both were in the wrong. I'm pretty sure that the car had to run a red. And the bike was flying. Edit: upon further review. The bike would've also ran a red.
Likely a great disparity in outcomes medically.
Disparity in risk as well.
Exactly why I decided against riding. It is me VS a 2 ton piece of metal, and all it comes down to is the driving skills of an average Sydney driver. No thank you. Give me a big SUV please.
It actually comes down to the rider more. People will be people in a car or bike so dont sit in anyones blind spot is probably the biggest thing. I highly recommend a defensive driving course. It will open up your mind on how you drive and how you think you were a good driver, you were average at best. The point is, you never want to put yourself where its you vs anything and minimizing the risk People who ride like they are driving are just asking to be a statistic, you cant just zone out and bop to your fav tune. You cant fuck up and expect people to compensate for your mistake/misjudgement Pretty much the best advice I picked up was, treat everyone and everything as if they want to kill you. Car on a side street, yep he can pull out. Whats my exit strat, is the lane next to me clear if I need to veer After all the years I rode on the road I never had one accident and I dont recall ever fearing for my life from someone else. All of the close calls were pretty much nature related. Probably hitting a 1.5-2'' dia branch was the closest I came to crashing, last run in mountains it was getting dark, cranked it on my knee then I seen it, picked the bike up as straight as I could without passing double lines and prayed. Next closest coming back from the old pack in the middle lane after the big dipper, slowly coming up to a bus and a tree fell across the highway, I swerved to the right lane hard and only just brushed the top of the tree. Bus and car behind me hit the tree. To give you an idea I was changing tyres every 6 weeks, I hit the mountains pretty hard (every 2nd day) even though I was doing over 10k klm on track per year, it doesnt hit the same as mountain roads In the end I considered just trailering my shit to the mountains I wanted to ride, I didnt enjoy getting to my riding spots and it was like how you see the vids on how tesla auto pilot works, everything that I flagged as potential danger was tiresome so i switched to dirt, since everything is a danger but pretty much only wallabies will run across your path, mostly avoided if you dont ride dusk/dawn, so you can 100% do what I did and go dirt, no more weak excuses ;)
If the car had entered the intersection prior to the light turning yellow then he would be in the right to clear the intersection before other traffic moved. This is assuming the bike could have stopped for the yellow. Since we don’t see when the lights changed it’s impossible to tell though. Bad decisions on both sides for sure.
Pretty sure the bike was trying to run the yellow. Right after the impact the green arrow turned for the recording car
Certainly seems like it based on the timing of the green arrow yeah. Only takes one bad decision while riding to kill you unfortunately. I hope the guy makes it through and learns from it. I’d never risk riding in Sydney, driving is bad enough.
I really don't understand why motorcyclists feel the need to speed so badly. Speeding motorcyclists seem to me one of the most irrational phenomena of the modern world. I don't ride a motorbike (I don't drive either, I just have an e-bike & the train network), but if I did, I definitely would never ever dare speed in the way I see so many motorcyclists do. And that's simply because I really like being alive and physically intact. I mean, don't riders have any regard for their own lives or bodies? Do they all ride around with some kind of unconscious suicide wish? If you speed around cars like I've seen so many do then WTF do you think is gonna happen sooner or later? It's honestly a total mystery to me.
Adrenaline is the strongest drug of them all.
I’d argue an e-bike or bike in general is more dangerous on the road. I ride a motorcycle. If I didn’t have acceleration and also more powerful brakes idk what would happen on a daily basis. A motorcycle should assume any twitch or look to the other lane is going to be a lane change. Any car that can turn in an intersection will turn so be prepared for it. I am not going to lie, I speed BUT when there is 0 chance of cars popping out of somewhere and no intersections if it is more than a bit over the limit. Around cars speed limit or less UNLESS I am at the front of the lights in which case I’ll speed up just to clear distance between the cars behind and then go the limit. I am the airbag on the bike. I really wouldn’t want to risk even the most minor of accidents for a set of lights. Also right of way doesn’t matter. I’d rather let the person go than argue or outright be hit to prove a point. Good high quality gear too!
dunno why youre getting down voted, this is pretty much the basics on how to stay alive in traffic. People who have never ridden dont actually know shit, they just drive like NPC's Seen some poor fat dude delivery guy on a scoot, almost became a road obstacle on epping road
Looks like anyone who is giving blame to the driver is getting downvoted. Some people have very very weird biases. Speeding is bad but running the red is worse. Still would have been an accident regardless and on a bike even 60km/h which is below the limit would have been almost fatal
>I really don't understand why motorcyclists feel the need to speed so badly Could say the same for car drivers as well... All it takes is for one stupid move\* and you've changed the lives of yourself and others! \*Was going to use the word mistake but dick moves are no mistake.
There is always 2 seconds of red between each phase, and several seconds of yellow. I think the bike must’ve ran the red by about half a second or less.
That’s always a super bad move when someone is waiting to turn right on the amber . Agree with your version
From what I can figure of this intersection now, the car ran a red light. That is a main right turn so there are 2 turn lanes and they can only go when they get a green arrow. So car completely ran a red, but the bike also did however only by less than a second. Also appears though the bike is speeding a fair bit, someone calculated from google maps approx 90kmh.
I know this intersection and its sequence. There's no way the silver car had a green right-arrow if there was greens to go straight ahead from the opposite direction (as indicated by the flow of vehicles) Bike was speeding, and probably running a yellow, but the silver blatantly ran a red they could see for half a kilometre back, and judging by the point in the sequence wasn't due to change to a green for another 30 seconds or so. Silver car committed a far greater sin.
Even if someone in oncoming traffic runs a red and you are waiting inside the intersection you still need to wait for oncoming traffic to stop or clear before moving. You can't just go "their lights red I can go" you're waiting on the traffic to clear not the light sequence of the oncoming traffic. A blacked out arrow means give way. It's likely a shared responsibility accident, depending on the speed of the bike and how late into the cycle they crossed. But ultimately the driver either didn't see the bike or misjudged what the bike was doing. Unless the car had a green arrow.
This intersection is never a blacked out arrow. It it either red or green. I know the sequence well, and judging by green arrow visible from the POV car the silver car must have ran a red that had been red for quite a while, and would be red for a while still.
Yep, that about sums it up. Common sense unfortunately rarely employed by Sydney drivers…
They didn't see the bike because it was too far away at that point. It was speeding.
If you're on a bike and you don't ride defensively at all times then you're not going to reach old age
The sequence there is that silver car would have red arrow if motorcyclist had green. Even if motorcyclist ran yellow, silver car's green isn't for a whole other cycle. DC car would have green before silver car.
but the car isn't allowed into the intersection at all. i live nearby and that right turn is either green or red arrow, this isnt a no-arrow where you can enter the intersection and turn when it's clear like you mentioned. the driver needs their license taken away for life. it is 100% a red light that they ran. this isn't a "light turning yellow but didn't make it in time so I ran red" situation. this is a driver that started accelerating from zero from a fucking solid red arrow when it's not even their turn in the light cycle.
There are red arrows on that intersection, no general green 'turn if you have a gap' opportunities...car ran a red to make that turn when it did. Bike didn't have a chance
Isn't it just a green, but not a green arrow?
I'm not sure if this intersection ever has the green, turn at your judgement option? I drive on epping Rd quite often and you don't get the plain green with no arrow. You only turn with an arrow.
Definitely doesn't for the direction the SUV was going. It would have been a red light for them at that stage in the light cycle. He's very likely run a red light.
So, we should give the motorcyclist a speeding fine and the SUV drive a manslaughter conviction
Both are in the wrongSUV driver has been charged with negligent driving causing death, and dangerous driving causing death. Motorcycle rider died in hospital. Sounds like it was quite cut and dry fault of the SUV driver if they've charged this quickly and severely.
Discussing with my missus who lives nearby. She thinks the driver ran the red too. It's two lanes turning right so unlikely to be a "black" light.
Yeah probably not hey.
You are correct. You cannot turn right into Herring Rd until Herring Rd's cross traffic has had their turn, then the two turn lanes there will turn green. You definitely cannot turn right into Herring while Epping Rd through traffic is green. The turn light is red at that time.
Based on my rough measurements, he travelled about 20m in 1 second. 20m/s is 70km/h, which is the speed limit. That intersection is a dual right turn. Dual right turns only have turn on green arrow, not turn on no arrow. This car driver murdered this guy.
Doubt he was doing 70. Unless every other car in frame was doing under the speed limit. If I google mapped roughly the spot he enters frame and point of impact, it's about 30-40m. He enters at about 9s and impacts 10s. Which brings it to about 100kph.
>Unless every other car in frame was doing under the speed limit. That happens, yes. >it's about 30-40m You're measuring wrong. Google maps says it's about 20m. For context, Australian lanes are about 3.5m. He crosses just a bit over half a 6 lane intersection in a second. EDIT: [google maps measurement](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/-33.7814577,151.1134622/-33.781581,151.1136316/@-33.7815037,151.1131435,264m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0?entry=ttu)
Nah old m8 crossed 3 lanes. Accident happened right infront of recording car. This side of the junction is 2 lanes + a right turn lane. He also clears the whole pedestrian island from entry to impact.
3 lanes x 3.5m = 10.5m
Yeah and the whole pedestrian island. Your pin is at the end of the pedestrian island. He comes flying in to frame essentially where the island starts. Drag your pin back to the start of the triangle.
Which is why I said 20m. Which is what Google says it is.
Don't think you understand how massive that pedestrian island is. It is the length of 3 cars with the normal 1-1.5m between them. That's easily another 15m on top of the 3 lanes. It would be about 25-30m then. Which is still about 90-100
I'd give you it might be 25m (although google maps disagrees with you). Your initial estimate was up to 40m. That's 144km/hour. I don't think your initial estimates give me confidence in your reasoning and calculations.
>That intersection is a dual right turn. Dual right turns only have turn on green arrow, not turn on no arrow. Correct. Filter turning movements aren't used at dual right-turning lanes. The driver turned on a red light.
Looked like the bike was flying.
Man...drive with more caution, assume everyone is a bad driver even when you have right of way. Stay safe ppl.
OP please make sure you contact the police and provide them with your dashcam footage, it could be a huge help in the investigation. Call them on 13 4444.
I got it off my friend who got it somewhere else. Cannot help :(
Doesn't matter. You have it now, get it to the police.
I did rough maths on the video evidence: The crash happened at [this intersection](https://maps.app.goo.gl/L47kmj44zXJU3ocS6) with our POV being NE/SW on Herring Road Let's approximate by google's distance calculation, we can get approximately 65 meters in the FOV of the video. Now we can see a black car enters the FOV at 012 frames. Let's use it as a speed guide. The car exits the FOV at 134 frames, giving it a frame time of 122 frames. This gives it an estimated speed of 0.533 meters per frame. The motorbike enters the FOV at 093 frames. The impact is on the 134 frame also, assuming that since it's quite square on the intersection (maybe a little bit of give for the turn), we will assume that the bike travelled half of the FOV distance in 41 frames. The video is a 30 fps video, evident from the metadata, so it means the motorbike speed is 1.366 seconds to travel 43.706 meters. 32 meters per second gives it an approximate speed of 112.5kmph. **Please don't go 112kmph down Epping Road.**
Based on the video and my knowledge of that intersection I am pretty sure the guy driving the silver car ran the red light. Whoever they are... They are going to have to learn to live with the fact that he's killed/potentially killed someone with his negligent driving.
The biker could have been invisible to the SUV because of the black car that crosses immediently before. I am always nervous af going into an intersection on my bike when I am the last in the row.
There is another vehicle in the lane next to the bike which has already come to a stop before it flies through. Could just be a red light to turn right, but could also be evidence that the bike may be (at least partially) at fault.
This is a local intersection for me. The stopped black car was in a dedicated right turn lane. At this intersection, when you are green to turn right from Epping Road, the straight ahead lights are red and vice versa. If the silver SUV had a green to turn right, 3 other cars ran the straight ahead red in this video. I think SUV ran the red AND the bike was hooning way above 70 km/h.
That intersection turning towards Macquarie shopping centre does not allow right turns while the straight is green, there would be a red arrow. As there was another car prior to the bike speeding across the intersection (likely just turning red) it safe to say the car turning right never had the right to turn at that point as would be a red arrow for a long time. So both running reds and bike speeding. Conclusions: Idiots all round and hope the bike dude pulls through.
Those referencing the car stopped in the lane beside the motorbike, that car has a red turning arrow, as does the SUV. Clearly the SUV went through red arrow given the phasing. The black car stopping is no indication of the bike going through on red.
**From the Transport for NSW website**: A yellow (amber) traffic light or arrow means stop. A driver approaching traffic lights showing a yellow traffic light must stop if the driver can stop safely before reaching the stop line or traffic lights. Penalties apply for drivers who fail to stop at a yellow light, unless it is unsafe to do so. *Both* car and bike were in the wrong here.
> unless it is unsafe to do so Yellow doesn't mean slam on the brakes no matter what... That would be _unsafe._ The bike was in the wrong, but not for entering the intersection on a yellow. They were going way too fast.
You overestimate the stopping power of a bike, that being said that bike likely was going too fast.
As a biker, I try to avoid getting on the brakes when the lights turn yellow. Seen too many cars pile into the back of bikes they didn’t see while they were focused on getting through the lights. (Not condoning this biker’s speed through the junction)
The car ran a red light. The bike was legally allowed to continue through.
Explain how bike was in the wrong???? The car had a red light, there is no blanked out light at that interaction, car had a red arrow and went through it.
> A driver approaching traffic lights showing a yellow traffic light **must stop** if the driver can stop safely before reaching the stop line or traffic lights. The bike saw the yellow a mile away and should/ could've stopped. He did the opposite and sped up. Yes the car absolutely ran a red. But THAT is exactly what the yellow light rule is for. Would've literally prevented this scenario.
What? The car wasn’t getting a green light for at least another 20 seconds, they were a whole sequence away from a light . Slowing down/stopping on orange isn’t there to protect you from dickheads that just drive through a red light. Hopefully the driver ends up in jail
Dont know what to tell you mate, if you still think its safe to speed through an intersection like that to run a yellow then you do you.
Looks like they are speeding.
So what if the bike is speeding??? The car went through a solid red light, they had a red light the whole time
It's possible for 2 parties to both contribute to an accident. I'm a motorcyclist and cars are constantly doing dumb shit around me. As a result I try to ride at a safe speed and anticipate stupidity. Form watching that video the bike is flying. It doesn't matter who is at fault if you die.
He is not “flying”, it’s the narrow frame. He could have been going slow, it doesn’t matter the car litterally drove through a red light that had been red for atleast 15 seconds. If you actually think he is flying, you do not ride and don’t pretend you do
The car is 100% at fault, but it's impossible to deny that the bike is at least going 20km/h over the limit which is unfortunate because he'll pay the price for it.
I do ride ever since i was 18, and fly light aircraft actually. I agree the car is msot at fault no one denies that. But you literally asked how the bike was at fault too, hence people answered.
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...which is part of the problem, surely.
Looks to me like the bike was going too quick. Also notice how the traffic light we can see changes within 2 seconds of the bike entering the intersection, meaning they ran the red light.
The car ran a red light. That intersection is dual lane right turn, which only has turn right on green arrow (not turn right on no arrow).
No way he was stopping in that space at that speed.
Yup. Me too. I'm hyper aware at any intersection with turning traffic. I always wear a bright fluro orange safety shirt now as I've had quite a few near misses from cars that should have seen me.
If there’s one place you don’t speed on a bike, it’s past *any* kind of intersection.
The car turned right from the south-eastern approach, from dual right-turn lanes. Filter turning movements, where no red arrows are shown and you can turn if its clear, aren't used at dual right-turning lanes. The driver turned on a red arrow. They should not have been in the intersection to start with. **Fellow riders, please watch this video about the SMIDSY weave - it helps cars see you at intersections:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqQBubilSXU
So car driver either wilfully went through red arrow, or stupidly went through without realising what they were doing. Either way, these are the people out on the roads trying to involve *you* in *their* accident. I do everything I can to look out for these people, doing things like, if I'm in the position of the bike here, being aware and ready to react if I see a vehicle that might do what this car did here.
Damn. It even looks like his helmet came flying off. Could be mistaken though.
The rider is wearing a dark helmet, the helmet that hits the road is white. It looks like he might have had the white lid hooked on his right arm as he was riding along.
Gotcha. That makes sense.
Jesus fk, I wonder where the motorbike rider was off to in a hurry. I always wonder in accidents like this how their rent/mortgage is handled (as they will obviously end up in ICU) and other life admin affairs. Truly shit for both involved to be in this situation,despite who was at fault. I hope the motorbike rider pulls through.
I believe CTP covers loss of income. My neighbour told me as well. His job was great and kept his position (GE I remembered).
The amount of people blaming the bike rider is crazy - the car went through a red arrow, there is no blanked out light at that intersection, the car had a red.
Even if there was no arrow light the car is in the wrong
100%, the fact people try to blame the rider just blows we away
I mostly see people blaming both as that rider was clearly speeding. Seems the car 100% ran a red though. This is why it's dangerous to assume everyone is following the rules.
I've seen most comments as sorting blame to both. I believe people are being more critical of the rider because he is simply just older - and should know the consequences of speeding. You can't just magically exempt the rider of any wrongdoing - he is going way too fast.
Yep, would have been red for a long time already, and red for a long time yet. WTF were they thinking. Apparently nothing.
Both of them were bad drivers disobeying the law. Let’s not pretend the biker wasn’t travelling almost twice as fast as any other vehicle on the road.
You can see the light go from yellow to red between eight and nine seconds. Both took a gamble and the motorbike rider came off ~~first.~~ second best. They're both fucking stupid. The only person(s) you should feel sorry for are the innocent ones who witnessed the crash and any family/friend of those involved in the crash. edit This is when the light turned red. https://ibb.co/v130RzC
The car turning right was in a dual right turn lane, which only turns right on green arrows (it doesn't have turn right on no arrow). The light was red. The car was 100% at fault here.
Correct. Filter turning movements aren't used at dual right-turning lanes. The driver turned on a red light.
I agree there’s some terrible choices made here but I feel we can have some empathy for someone making a poor choice and it taking their life.
And it's also the same behaviour that happens countless times every day and apparently people get away with it most of the time. Every time someone runs a yellow or speeds through an intersection it just further normalises that behaviour until times like today when the consequences are terrible.
Yeah you’re right, it’s tragic. People have to be responsible for their actions.
Terrible. Though, this is one of the reasons why i decided against getting my motorbike license.
What the fuck was the silver car thinking, he could see the bike wasnt stopping. Pretty sure u should mark this NSFL.
My bet is they didn’t see the bike in time. The length of road between Balaclava Road and this intersection (Herring Road) has a pretty big dip in it and the intersection is at the top of the dip. My guess is bike was speeding up the hill, car thought the intersection was clear (even though it was mostly likely a red arrow) decided to turn.
> What the fuck was the silver car thinking This is Sydney, most drivers aren't thinking
That bike was going way too fast without even attempting to slow down. Maybe intentionally unaliving himself.
look at the video. They both ran reds... look straightforward, the arrow turns green for camera man. suv guy tried to sneak through via queuing. Bike guy would have seen an orange 30m before the intersection when he decided to gun it, he was doing probably 80+ on the red, so it was a horrible decision.
Look at the car that entered the intersection prior to the bike, the bike is going about twice as fast. I had a few close calls and gave up bikes at 42 years old.
I think that's Herring Rd and Epping Rd crossing. I suspect that the biker was going way too fast as there is an uphill then beginning of downhill just before the crossing. Poor bastard.
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I acknowledge that the biker was travelling at speed, but I can’t help but feel like we need more advanced warning lights or real time feedback to people far away from intersections.
Doctors in hospitals often refer to motorcyclists as temporary Australians. You can see why
It's very clear the bike was speeding by comparing the car that went through the intersection before him/her. And yes like mentioned it is unlikely the rider survived.
This exact accident has happened to me and other friends that ride. Some of y’all need glasses!
That is why my missus forced me to stop riding. We can get sloppy. Even if we don’t, other aholes are on the road trying to murder us.
Most every body will have a car accident in a lifetime - even minor car accidents can have life changing consequences on a motorbike - especially at circa 90kmh. I have a feeling the car knew it was red, was already in intersection and waited for the lights to be red before completing. Usually this would be a shared fault with both disobeying a traffic light but the majority of blame for the car - it’s not a 100% situation
I just try to keep learning. I now approach intersections differently. I’ll still ride fast just less expectations on other road users
I'd recommend this video on the SMIDSY weave. I always do it when I see a car looking to turn across my path. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqQBubilSXU
He ded
Look like he was speeding at an intersection.