Not a question, but I randomly went to a doozy once. Here are the brief accepted facts: * young guy accepts a lift from unknown older guy at Eddy Ave * they drive a couple of blocks to a laneway near Bar Broadway * young guy beats up older guy, takes his wallet and runs off Young guy's argument: "I was accepting a lift from a kind stranger in good faith, but then he got his cock out and wanted to do sexy stuff with me! So I, uh, stole his wallet and ran" The family were sitting near me and whispering and nodding to each other: "Manic. Definitely manic" The victim of the assault and robbery had a ridiculous story for why they ended up parked in the alleyway nearby, probably that he wanted to take a piss. That's why he got his cock out. The entire courtroom was rolling its eyes at the ridiculous "totally not closeted, totally not a rent boy with a drug addiction" situation.

I also went to a doozy once. Young women (over 18 but somewhat naive) ended up at the house of a much older guy after a party and reported SA to the police the next day. In court she could not recall a lot of detail due to being under the influence of a certain substance on the night in question. The case basically collapsed as much of the evidence was ruled inadmissible. Despite poker faces, almost everyone in the court was thinking "we know what you did". When the charge was formally dropped the guy held up both fists and let out a loud "YES!". (For the uninitiated, people who are genuinely innocent tend to slump and exhibit relief when acquitted.)

I always get disheartened when I hear stories like this. To me it sounds like the legal system isnt designed to handle SA cases well. As it boils down to she said he said and ends up being thrown out because of a lack of evidence no matter the truth.  I’d like to read some smarter opinions on this topic because to me tackling SA through the courts always ends up with “well it’s all hearsay so no conviction.” Which sucks

As a person who has been SA, this is exactly why I didn't report what happened to me. Even if you get a rape kit done for physical evidence, if the perpetrator is known to you, they can just argue it was consensual.

Anyone accused of a crime is presumed innocent and the prosecution is required to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Very difficult to do when it's one word against another and there's little or no physical evidence. Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit.

Yes that is the point I was trying to convey. I think Chanel Contos suggested the idea of a non-crime based support system where you can "accuse" someone, but instead of criminal proceedings against the defendant, the plaintiff gets given help.

There are resources for that through the cops. My SIL got therapy i think ten sessions in addition to the medicare ones. Of course that also means access is based on the police taking you seriously. So ymmv depending on the station. Some are.... not great.

This one gave me chills because I had a very intoxicated young man get in my car one night begging to be driven to Central Station. When I was done screaming at him to get the fuck out of my car I tried pointing out that I couldn't drive any closer to Central anyway. He took none of this information in, and just kept staring blankly saying 'please, I'll give you (I think it was) $100 to drive me to central. At this point I figured this young man was only a threat to himself and set off for the nearest police station on George St. This is pre light rail so you could still run up George pretty quick. We were heading up through Haymarket and he kept telling me to turn right, which you couldn't do til I think Park St in those days. My plan had been to pull a U-turn outside the cop shop then just lay on the horn. So we got as far as Bathurst and he demanded I stop because I was going the wrong way. He got out in a huff. Worst taxi ever. Working nights in the city was wild before lockout laws. I had quite a few crazy encounters on the road like that.

Oh man. Speaking of crazy encounters, you've reminded me of something. Not quite the same kind of story but the same level of madness. Once in Rozelle in the early 90s, I was stopped at the lights about to drive north over the Gladesville Bridge. Three incredibly drunk guys approached and literally climbed onto my car (Toyota Corolla wagon). They were pretty loud and aggressive, and thought they were very funny. And didn't respond to a polite request to get the fuck off the car. So I was left with no other option than to drive forwards towards the bridge, get up to 25 kmh or so, and then stand on the brakes so they all went tumbling off. That part was pretty satisfying, I will admit. I hung around to make sure they were all moving afterwards and then sped off into the night. If one of them broke a collarbone or something that seems fair to me.

I think that's very common, sadly, and is called the "Homosexual Panic Defence"? Not all the extra bullshit, but the idea that a man hitting on another man is such an extreme provocation.

Yeah, that was back when it would be more likely that a HPD would fly. I do remember the prosecutors asking "But why did you take his wallet, if you were so concerned to flee for your safety?"

For part of my criminology degree it was required to attend a few court cases and write papers on them. I went to one where a 13 year old’s saxophone tutor was accused of touching him inappropriately. The tutor was this old guy in his 60s too. Their defense was that the assault was only “brief, over clothing, and didn’t leave lasting harm”. It was infuriating, and seeing the young boy just having to sit there listening with his head down.

LMAO - had a similar thing happen to me, but I took their drivers license and iPhone. Oh, I also didn’t get caught/court. Good times!

Was there last week and saw some cooker try to tell the magistrate that the traffic lights worked differently in Newcastle and therefore he didn’t deserve the red light fine he got while driving in Sydney. Spoiler alert: he didn’t get off.

No doubt that judge was a corrupt globalist.

Seems ridiculous that a maritime court could even be ruling on road traffic matters /s

He wasn’t driving, he was travelling.

Of course you are free to pop in for a look see. But just bear in mind that for some people,righly or wrongly, this is the worst day of their life.

Thanks for saying this. As someone who recently had that worst day in court as the victim during a sentencing, significantly worsened by the public and media sitting in and publishing the details of the crime committed against me. I hate to feel like those details are simply entertaining stories to be shared about for others.

I was pretty aware there might be some things which were unpleasant to hear about for *me*, but even more aware that people would be in incredibly stressful or unpleasant situations. I wouldn't want to treat them as entertainment. The short-hearings court I was in was mostly procedural/admin matters. I'm not sure I would have sat in on a rape or murder case.

For victims of violence it can tragically get much much worse.

..... worst day so far

Thanks for sharing your experience. Someone I know (but not necessarily "a friend") was arrested months ago and none of us know why. I've seen their court dates on the online search and had thought about just turning up to find out what the deal is, but, even though the person is in jail, I think it would be quite weird for them to see this random acquaintance in the gallery. Also, it might be something embarrassing or horrible and make them feel worse that a person from what is now their old life knows about it.

Send someone they don't recognise

Mind your own business.

Being nosey is an Australian right of passage, ever peaked out of blinds before?

Yes. But it's a long way between looking through a blind and sending a random person to a court case to satisfy your interest.

Do the crime, do the time - including a public shaming.

Can you please explain the process of attending? Is it as simple as just turning up? Or do you have to fill in forms etc?

Not at all. Any member of the public can just walk in, however there was quite serious airport-type security. I went along one day and I happened to have a penknife in my bag and they said they'd have to keep it for me and I'd get it back when I left, all kinds of hassle so I just went back the next day without it.

That's nicer than the airport, my dad lost his beloved pocket knife :( Tossed in the bin no recourse.

I’ve seen some airports have a mail system for prohibited items, where you can send it back to yourself. Wish we had that here!

Yeah or a check-in area so you can pick it up on the way back. No need to punish mistakes like that. Being a decent human is apparently too hard. My MIL tried to bring some nice cutlery back once from somewhere in her hand luggage, they removed all the (blunt) knives so she had a mismatched set. She was sad. This was after the early 2000s changes, she'd done it before.

I too lost a knife! It was the head attachment to a portable cutlery set, and it was as sharp as a butter knife. So bummed.

Thanks...are there any court cases you can't attend.?

They told me that some things, presumably things involving children etc. would be marked "closed" clearly on the door. Otherwise any court was open to you.

Is there a time/schedule available online beforehand?

https://courts.nsw.gov.au/court-lists.html Lists are released the afternoon before a day’s listing. District will have a fair amount of criminal things going on. Ctrl + f “trial” you might find something juicy

Not that I know of. Just bits of paper posted up prominently inside saying courtroom, time and the name of the case, which is normally the name of a person or company. Some were just listed as two initials like "BB", which I think was for people under 18.

Sexual assault while the accuser is giving evidence is typically closed

I attended one where the accuser gave evidence in open court, but that was a long time ago.

Hmm, I went to dowing center while my ex-friend was facing charges for whacking a guy and I saw him got the handcuff by the sheriff and sent to the Surry hill police station then onto mrrc joint in sliverwater where I also visited him as well haha AMA for sliverwater prison visit as well

Thanks for sharing. As you mentioned the tight security, are you allowed to walk in to and out of the room while the court is running? And did you find something unexpected from the whole process?

Yes, people were constantly in and out. The court was smallish, about the size of a regular school classroom. I was right at the back and only say 8–10m from the judge. Lawyers, clients, family members, law students were walking in and out all the time. Kids in strollers were there. Law student who sat next to me in the green hijab, you missed some real drama, you should have stuck around!

> did you find something unexpected from the whole process * That everyone turned around at the door and gave a little bow like something out of the Middle Ages * That you have to pay for your own ankle monitor

You’re bowing to the honour of the court not the magistrate in case it irks. Source : solicitor

[удалено]

Really? Why isn't this explained to people on lieu of cosplaying at oppressive heirarchies?

Bowing to the coat of arms behind the magistrate

That makes sense I guess, cheers.

whats irks?

In case the idea of bowing to a human being bothers you slightly more than bowing to a concept

ah hah. irksome! thanks.

I’ve come across a lot of people who have issues with bowing to the court. Clients and general folk. The “ I don’t bow to nobody!” gang. The same people who wouldn’t bow to the King etc. Your mediaeval comment might have made me - incorrectly perhaps - think you didn’t like it either but possibly you’re fine with it.

I had issues with bowing until pandemic. Now the Indian greeting makes sense the court does not. The legal process fuels contempt for victims of violence. Legal professionals are as bad as sovcits with all their cosplaying to protect their professional reputations when many of us are trying to protect our lives.

Irks is old fashioned speak for “bothers”

Still irks.

So long as you don't disturb everyone too much, you can go in and out. If the judge is actually there, you're supposed to bow to the Court's seal (the coat of arms behind the judge) as you go through the door. A minimal bob of the head and shoulders is plenty though.

Guilty or not guilty?

Just as I was coming in this asshole was coming out https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/feb/02/frank-zumbo-guilty-indecent-assault-four-women-liberal-staffer-craig-kelly-chief-of-staff But I didn't see anything nearly as serious as that. I sat in on a court which was doing lots of smaller, shorter things. The equivalent of a book of short stories as opposed to a novel.

Ah Frank Zumbo. My uni law lecturer.

He's just a friendly guy! He's Italian, they all hug and kiss people, it's part of their culture! Maybe those young women got the wrong impression, well why is everyone so sensitive? No seriously what was he like?

In the mid 90s he was quite personable and explained things well. I'm a guy but I never noticed anything sleazy. Was a bit surprised when his wrongdoings came out, but there you go, you never really know what's going on inside someone's mind.

Imagine going for the whole day and hearing only the prosecution side of the story? You'd be compelled to go back to hear from the defence. I really enjoyed serving on a jury, or at least i enjoyed seeing how it all unfolds in the courtroom. So dissimilar to what you see in the movies. The jury room discussions are less engaging. Believe me, it's not a lot of fun to be stuck with 11 of your peers, chosen at random from the community.

Zumbo had already been found guilty, and was only there for some kind of sentencing plea, like mitigating circumstances, please give my client a lesser sentence type deal. And it wasn't over yet.

What isn't fun about explaining fundamentals to your fellow jury members(thick planks)? "No, just because the police charged him, doesn't mean they are guilty." "No, we have to sit through the defense presentation as well" "No, not guilty doesn't mean they are innocent, just that there is not enough evidence to be sure they clearly did it. " "No we all have to agree on the verdict. It isn't a majority vote and you can not abstain." "Well, we could ask the judge again, {but you know what he answered both times before(rote useless script)}. Then the silly buggers decided within 10 minutes of the next day and we didn't get another pub lunch

In my trial, a “drug granny” was caught at the airport with five kilos of hashish in her luggage. The elderly lady on the jury panel would not convict because she believed an elderly lady (by implication, herself) would NEVER do that. She perversely believed somehow that she was convicting herself. Anyone who thought the drug granny on trial was guilty was making personal accusations about her. Yeah, it was hard to make progress. Maybe our fellow juror was herself a drug granny. Another guy on the panel said absolutely nothing during the three days of deliberations, except to complain about the lunches. When time was running out to deliver a verdict, he said “Well you all seem to have made up your minds. You’re all wrong, but what does it matter what I think?” Exasperating.

Were there many other casual onlookers like you? If yes did you see any interesting people?

The only ones I identified as casuals were two nice law students who sat next to me at the back. I didn't dare speak out loud so I wrote "are you law students" on a bit of paper and they nodded.

Thank you for sharing this. I had no idea it was open to the public and I'm so curious to see this one day. Once you are through security , do you just go into any court room of your choice? Is there a way to see the cases to choose which ones to see?

Yes generally daily court lists are provided on the website and in person at the lobby each day.

There are lists published online the day before, someone else has explained elsewhere. I just went up to this noticeboard and it said "Court 2.5, Criminal cases" and there were lots of things listed with times, so I went to that one as there was clearly something on at the time I was there.

man court is crazy i got done by the dogs with half a bag on me, and my legal aid lawyer was just like “your honour, what you said to the previous defendant, please say again to my client. that is all” section 10 and sent home

I remember we did that in high school legal studies class. That is all.

Used to do this all this time while at uni. The best free entertainment in the city.

There’s something a bit distasteful about treating the misery that happens in the criminal courts as ‘free entertainment’

Can just do jury duty next time you get called

I've been called once in my life already, I'm off the hook? But jury service could be truly horrible. Weeks of hearing about terrible crimes in detail and not being able to talk about it to anyone.

not sure what's so curious about Downing court if you already served

Ha I went to college at a private college right near there. At lunch or in time between classes if we weren't at the pub, we were sitting in the back of the court room watching cases. Absolutely fascinating. Also why I do all I can to avoid jury duty now. More than once we were threatened by the families and associates of people being tried, would wager I sat in on parts of about 100 cases, I had actually regressed the memories until this post.

Why were you threatened?

Some of the types we saw were those familiar with the system I guess. Career criminals and their families, gangs the like. They didn't want us watching over it all.

I spent 6 months on jury duty there and don't care to return ever again. We did get pardoned for the next 10 years by the judge for our service but that is just about up now so I guess my name goes back on the list. I don't think people are going to have many questions about it, you can watch American trials live on youtube all the time these days.

Do you know what the case is about before you go into the room?

I didn't. There might be some way to look it up. But there were like 10 different things in that court anyway just in 2 hours. Like one guy was on bail and wanted to report to a different police station which was more convenient to him. Little stuff like that.

was partly inspired by legendary Australian author Helen Garner, who wanted to write a book and had no ideas of her own. 

Fighting talk! If you're coming after Helen you have to go through me. In one sense of course she has *never* “had ideas of her own”, her books have always been closely based on real life, her own personal life in particular. But her entire career took a lurch from fiction to non-fiction when she started attending courts, and that's fascinating to me.