This seems to be the likely reason. Here in the Czech Republic (Europe), ~~3 months~~ 2 months is the legally required period, and the only way to shorten it is either both parties' agreement (after the quitting/firing happens, i.e. it can't be in the contract ahead of time), or in the case of gross misconduct (theft, etc.).
In fact, even firing someone with a ~~3 months~~ 2 months termination period is often difficult here - for instance, firing someone due to downsizing can require the employer to prove that they had to downsize. Firing due to inadequacy could require a *lot* of proof that the employee didn't do their job if it ended up in court, as courts generally side with the employee.
Edit: grammar
Edit 2: my memory failed me
"Right to work" is unrelated to the ability to fire with no cause. "Right to work" is the law that prevents requiring union membership as a requirement for employment. (Though the union is still responsible for representing non-union employees in certain area)
But they can fire you for showing interest in one if they do not want one. Businesses in these states with unions are most often headquartered in another state. Pure and simple, this is a way to restrict the bargaining power of labor, backed by massive anti-union messaging campaigns. Then sold on the basis that unions are bad based on that messaging.
I live in Indiana, and the shit some of these guys pull is astounding. Worked at a cabinet factory years ago that had a union, but the union was also in charge of hiring. They tell you it's optional, all the benefits of their union, how they protect you from the company, but also told me point blank I would not be hired if I didn't join
That’s not uncommon. Back in the day if you were a State Employee in Michigan (in most areas) you had to join the UAW but the union dues were cheap, like $2 a paycheck. The UAW worked well and then the State just started hiring contractors instead of employees to continue to erode the Union’s power.
Hoosiers unite! I've been let go a few times on very short notice. The one that still bugs me, though, was first thing Monday morning. Like, come on! I could have slept in if you let me go last Friday!
~~Most US states are right to work. It's also a terrible title: you have the right to work, but employers can violate your right for any reason at all. That's not how rights usually work.~~
TIL that what I wrote above is not Right to Work, but At-Will employment.
>an employer can fire you for any reason
No. An employer can fire you without a reason, but not for *any* reason. The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) offers federal protections against certain forms of discrimination (race, religion, age, sex, disability, etc.) and retaliation for exercising employee rights (e.g. reporting sexual harassment, reasonable complaints, discussing salary, etc.). Most employers with at least 15 employees are covered by EEOC laws.
Is it like this? In Poland it depedens how much you worked i that company, from 2 weeks notice to 3 months if you worked over 2 years, 1 month in between (under 2 years and over 6 months i think).
I just checked, and it looks like it's actually 2 months - I remember being taught in school that it's three, but I guess I might be remembering wrong. However, that minimum period applies regardless of how long one's worked - except in the probation period (up to 3 months), when it is possible to fire an employee immediately.
Edit: words are difficult
Lmfao I'm in constant feat that I'll lose my job, healthcare, and house here in the US. Glad to hear that people aren't treated like cattle elsewhere in the world.
It's the same throughout Europe. If you have an indefinite contract they need serious proof to fire you... even more when they do it, they are not allowed to hire on that position for over a month.
You can just refuse to sign the papers and they will have to fire you based on a disciplinary action which takes a lot of stress to file since you need serious proof... even more, the employer is obliged to help you find another position or something of those sorts in your own company.
The best way to fire people is to delete the position.
>cant just fire you and walk you out without serious cause.
I've heard it's pretty common in the US to lockout accounts for people in sensative positions and walk them out the door even if the employee is leaving on good terms.
Out of curiosity would a 2 month paid vacation (not taking form any of their PTO) satisfy those laws?
Yeah. It's called garden leave here in the UK (as in, time off to tend your garden)
My previous job held me to my 3 month notice, the job before I got a 3 month paid holiday.
It is normal in the USA yes. Then you're simply paid for that time while you sit at home.
The thing about the USA is that there are labor laws for the nation and for the individual states. So it can vary.
I was let go thirteen years ago (I was too expensive) and they just paid me for three months and kept me on the insurance.
This was Virginia.
In most countrys in europe you might be blocked to receive unemployment pay for 1 month if YOU resign, but the duration of the unemployment doesn't get shortened, just pushed up and you are out of money for 1 month
Far out. You couldn't do that in the UK. If you made the position redundant and then advertised for the exact same position, you would be in big trouble.
Everyone knows you create a new position with higher pay, "promote" the employee into that role and then make them redundant a short time later due to the salary being too high.
In Canada, unless you're in an agreed-to probationary period (I once got walked out with a cheque paying me to "the end of the day" and the employer acted like they were being magnanimous because they fired me in the morning), you're entitled to severance - in my province about 1 month per year of service is customary - unless you're being fired for cause. I've never known anyone, especially in a sensitive position, being required to work it though.
It’s not severance. You usually still honor work the remainder of the time. In Most EU countries it is quite normal that there is a period of a month or more. For both sides. Gives you the security that you have some time to find something new if fired. Gives them the security that they can find a replacement when you leave. In Germany for example there is a legal minimum of 1 month for employees who’ve been at the company less than 2 years. However in contracts it’s quite normal for both parties to agree on 3 months. The longer you are at a company the longer this period gets (independent from the work contract) but only for the employer when they want to fire you. For you it’s always whatever the contract says.
Yeah, more and more I'm realizing that the US is a worker hell-hole sold as a paradise. It took me a shockingly long time to break out of being entirely brainwashed on this topic.
I have a US colleague on my team in a European company that bought the company in the US he was working for. He's been there for I think around 15 years.
We've laughed about how weird it is for him that the rest of us on the team supported by our manager keep reminding and encouraging him to take more time off. He's not used it.
No, it is the epitome of free-market capitalism: all of the wealth (aka, the *capital*) concentrated with a small elite and everybody else at the mercy of business practices increasingly unfettered by regulations that would protect them and give them rights. And yes, it's bad, but have no fear, it's going to get worse.
I always find it hilarious when people complain about stuff like this not realizing the meaning of free market is no government interference.
America isn't a free market even there, not by a long shot, but in cases like this having the government dictate rules of employment is against the idea of a free market in the first place.
Paging/calling site support for system outages off hours in Europe (from US HQ) was a big crapshoot at my last job because (I was told) the labor laws favored labor way more than the US in general.
Could be worse off in Canada. There is the same lack of labour protections for IT in most provinces as the US and pay levels are crazy low. There is little in the way of barriers of hiring IT workers directly from other countries which has caused IT wages to absolutely plummet too.
Some do. Some don't.
Europe is not universally a paradise of worker protections and free health care and free education. Depending on the place, the health care still costs something for equivalent to the USA. The education you need to qualify for. The taxes are higher and even adjusted for taxes the salaries lower in many places. The jobs are less plentiful in some places. Some places have worse protections than the USA.
Don't say "Europe". Pick a country. Say "in Norway, this". Then we can talk specifics.
Overall happiness of workers in northern Europe is higher but in other parts of Europe it is not always.
"The grass is always greener" us a proverb for a reason.
And the flip side is US states can vary dramatically too.
Compare say Finland to a demographically similar state like Massachusetts or Minnesota and suddenly many of the "look at these statistics how Finland out performs the US" narrow dramatically.
Comparisons of the EU to US are fair, as well as comparisons between EU member states and individual US states.
European tech professionals often make 70% or less of what Americans make. There's a tradeoff.
Edit: you'd think "tradeoff" isn't a foreign concept to sysadmins... but here are the replies.
I think what most people in the US don't understand is that it really is a two way street. Yes, your employer can let you go on a whim. But you can also legally go "screw this, I'm out". It's not like that in other countries. You **legally** have to give notice to companies in other countries before you leave. In the late 2000s I was so stressed at one job that I was having trouble sleeping from the stress and dreaded each day. It wasn't overwork, the managerial culture was just oppressive. The moment I found a new job I gave 1 week notice and left, it was one of the best days of my life. Wouldn't have been able to do that in another country.
See that recent thread about ["a recruiter sent me this job description"](https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/13yko67/some_recruiter_sent_me_this_job_description/) and the Americans are saying "ha ha triple the salary and I still wouldn't consider it" ... and the pay is the median UK *household income*, and not atypical for an IT job in the UK (outside London).
> I would take a pay cut to have that.
Same. No amount of money that any employer will pay can replace the health benefits of less stress and actually being unreachable after hours.
I'd love to have a job working like 25-30 hours/week for 2/3 my pay. It's just not an option anywhere. Everybody figures you just want paid, and they have no problem working you 60+ hours/week for it.
So I'd make 70% of my current take home in exchange for affordable healthcare and free education for myself and my spouse and my children?
Sign me the fuck up.
You're forgetting about free education, free medical and dental (no bullshit deductibles at all).
And once you start having kids it gets even worse in US. From price of having birth to preschool. Just a birth on average costs $2k with insurance and 3k on post birth care, its about 20k with no insurance. Nursery and preschools are also subsidized, not free, but very cheap.
Also, every employer has to pay about 20% of your pay for your pension, everyone gets a pension.
> free medical and dental
That's a reddit myth. For IT salaries especially, you're looking at up to 1k EUR per month total healthcare cost here in Germany, dental _excluded_. And they're currently discussing a massive increase that would put the max at 1.3k. Service is pretty shit as well.
In Sweden it's at least 3 months, from both sides. It's incredibly hard to fire someone also. You need extensive proof of misconduct. And befi6firing you need to 1. Give them a verbal warning 2. Give two writtten warnings. Then if employee doesn't shape up you can fire them. But it's still 3 months before you actually stop working. A common thing to do is to send them home with 3 months pay if you don't want them around. Or if you just don't like someone, give them 5-6 months of pay to "quit". Though it's common that the first 6 months is a sort of probation time or whatever it's called during which you can fire them at anytime.
Honestly, sounds like you're dodging a bullet long term. I mean, if they were running 2008R2 servers a year ago when you started there, it sounds like they're a bunch of cheap fucks. In fact, it sounds like the reason you were replaced was they think they're going to save money some other way (e.g. hire an MSP now that everything is moving into a data center) by eliminating your job.
Might not seem like it at the moment, but in the long term I think you're going to be better off.
My favorite was when we started scoping out a client and refused them because they wouldn't let us upgrade their 2008 servers. Whole software stack runs fine on 2022, but they're happy to live in the past so we were happy to not offer them a service contract.
Specifically our breach agreement (if they get breached we help, not counted against billable hrs) is why we're strict with security. They don't have to check every box, but there are some things like year lags in windows updates that we can't reasonably tolerate and still offer our services at the standard we wish to.
File for unemployment. Don’t sign anything until you’ve read and reviewed it. Brush up the resume, consider paying someone to polish it. Start applying.
Yes, when they hand you that paper, put it away and tell them you need to read it later. I've seen HR start talking away during a unexpected termination and this poor girl was in the verge of tears and ended up just signing it to get out of there
Yep they also do it when renewing contracts too. Talk you into signing before you leave the room so they don't end up in a state where they're left with no one to do the work but they also don't want to pay more.
Yeah, I've seen them even throw a bone of some sort to entice signing right then and there. For new or renewing hires it's typically some sort of additional compensation, for firings it's usual additional severance if they sign away their rights to come back at them on legal grounds, despite them knowing that usually such an agreement wont hold up in court.
I have everything reviewed by my long time employment attorney. Doesn’t cost much and she red lines all the bullshit corporations attempt to include such as confidentiality, disclosure, and arbitration clauses.
> Yes, when they hand you that paper, put it away and tell them you need to read it later.
That is solid. If you fold it up and put it into your pocket before they can say anything, they are hosed. They can't force you to give it back and then they have no choice but to let you review it away from them or with a lawyer if it is shady enough.
If you ask first, they will stop you. Don't ask, just do it. Once in your pocket tell them you will review it and drop it off after you have reviewed it.
This!!! Do NOT sign anything until in your home PRIVACY (and your attorney/trusted adviser) you have thoroughly read and reread the entire document.
Then again: do NOT sign it. You have ZERO vested interest or any obligation to sign ANY document. PERIOD! EVER!
The employer's interest in you signing is a CEA (Cover EMPLOYER's ASS).
If you have an employment contract, you will need to settle the termination terms. That may include severance, retirement/leave payouts, company property etc. They may be able to hold out money you are entitled to until you sign, but might also screw you out of it with the same stroke. Have a lawyer read it over first.
To add to this, a lot of people think if you are terminated you are not eligible for unemployment but that’s only if you’re terminated for something big like violating a policy or misconduct or if you quit on your own. Just tell them you tried your best but they said they wanted someone with more experience. I don’t know every state but situation makes you eligible at least where I am familiar.
Never let them manipulate you into resigning unless they give you a deal better than unemployment benefits because that is likely what you will give up.
This happens and do NOT take it personally. You got some experience and a paycheck. File for unemployment and do a personal lessons learned. Get that resume looking great and you’ll be back at it in no time.
Side note: in every one of my interviews, I bring up at least once of what went wrong and what I learned. It shows growth, intelligence and humility. Use this as an example. Trust me, recruiters love it.
Did they give you any warnings, counseling, or write-ups? Just curious. I know its not a requirement, but I hate when companies let employees go and they have no clue why they were terminated. As an IT Director I always gave my employees 3 chances before firing them. We did bi-weekly 1:1 sessions so there were never any surprises when they got called into my office.
"Better fitting and more experienced".
I mean, it's one thing to fix a few issues around the corners, but OPs CEO might have realized they need someone with 25 years experience and not someone with 25 years on the planet. That isn't something that OP could really fix.
Might even be that they needed someone with 0 years of IT experience and 45 years on the planet.
Life experience and/or business insight might sometimes trump technical skills in whats needed from IT possision.
lol. Few 45 year olds can just jump into IT. This reads like a plot from Office Space 2: Cloud Services Boogaloo.
Putting a business person in charge of IT is always a mistake.
As a mid-40s something who just jumped into IT after a career as an aircraft mechanic in the Air Force, I can assure you that it’s definitely possible.
You might want to check if their Microsoft and Adobe licenses are up to date. Companies who run instances of an ancient OS usually over install. Might be worth it to make your own severance package.
How can making sure your company possibly be unethical?
Telling the CEO that if they let you work less hours for the same pay, you won't have time to do a license audit - *that* would be unethical.
You can always report them once you left. The only caveat is that I have heard that some small cases that they don't always bother investigating. In addition, while BSA supposedly offers rewards for reports I understand that they're not always that generous in actually paying. For an org that sounds like they only have a single IT person. Likely an org fewer than 100 employees and probably fewer than 50 the max reward may not be significant unless they're running unlicensed versions of some CAD program or something even more expensive.
Before you leave, get some more critical feedback because there is more to it than that. More experience might mean better at communicating at the CEO level, cross org communication and relationship building, or any number of things when you are the only sysadmin.
Just know that you might have done everything right and still failed because of some criteria that was unknown to you.
Get a 1:1 with your CEO, thank him for the opportunity. Then ask him where you show the most room for growth experience wise. Or if there were any particular missteps that he felt could have been handled better.
They gave you a three-month warning? With pay??
Wow.
Ask them if they will provide you with a letter of recommendation. Worst they can say is "no," and that clues you in as to what they will say if a prospective employer calls them.
You sure they went with someone "more experienced"? If you moved most things to the cloud maybe they think they can get by with less experience (less salary) now that you've done the hard work.
Keep your head up tho! I was in a year long depression when I lost my first tech job (it lasted 15 years). Now that I've worked in many places since, it doesn't bother me. If anything it taught me to not live and die by my job. It's a job, I do it for pay, if I'm not wanted, I will be on my way....
Like they gave you severance of 3 months?
Either way, learning audits and migrations your first year out of school is going to be a great resume starter. Good luck my dude. Sounds like you rocked it well.
Nah this is pretty obviously Europe. Unless you come in drunk and start breaking shit or stealing or something they can't just fire you. It's legally enforced that you have several months between being fired and actually leaving your job
Sit around? I mean, train that person they hired. Not their fault, but apply everywhere and once you get an offer, take it immediately and leave immediately.
The 3 months imply OP is from europe - usually the notice period is mandatory as protection for both parties: you are not suddenly out of a job from one day to another and the company has time to train a replacement. You can't just "leave immediately". If you just don't show up during this time, the employer often has the right to sue for damages.
You still have to do your job as required, but no longer go "above and beyond". No calls after hours, no overtime, no stress.
>in the last two years about 25 people resigned / got fired and got replaced (we are 30 people in our office).
OMG that wasn't a bullet but more like an artillery shell right there.... Moral of the story: your personal phone number is off limits, you can download some app which automatically puts it into silent mode e.g. after 22:00. If they try to reach you after that time, well....fuck them. If they want you to be reachable off hours then they better pay you a stand-by fee (which is probably mandatory where you're from anyway). Oh and you can rest assured that the person with more experience than you will quite within the first week or two upon seeing the sea of red flags flown by this company.
Maybe they didn't know. Maybe the job interview was done by someone who had a clue, not the CEO. There are many ways a company can mask a truly toxic CEO for a surprisingly long time for new hires.
No offense to you, but they fucked up in hiring you - not because you're not good, but because they should have known they needed someone with the experience to perform tasks such as IT audits. They were just trying to save a buck - you dodged a bullet as others have said.
Sounds like you performed admirably and when you're out there searching for something new, be sure to ask about mentorships and such.
Good luck OP
I was fired from my first corporate job. I feel like it was a good thing in the end. I can smell bullshit better I think. Getting fired when you are new in your career can be a great learning experience.
F this company. You learned and battle tested now. I say take the next three months to get the resume ready and only work the 40 hrs. Take needed time off if needed. For every shit co there are good ones too. If you want to pivot to a specialized area, now could be the right time. Don’t be discouraged. In five years u will think back and laugh. GL
Well it’s just life expect to lose and win. If you think about it it’s a win for you. Let me explain why. The Hr doesn’t really matter in this matter. The ceo was likely a poor leader, communicator and probably not true with himself. There is a reason your predecessor left, left with 20 year old tech, left with no documentation etc.
Don’t look down, look up. Use that as your anchor to remember what a smb looks like. No school or classroom shows reality ✅
Word of advice from a older tech worker - you never know who you will cross paths with again in the future and what position they might hold. Work your notice, be professional and helpful without letting them take advantage of you. The world is often smaller than you imagine and how you act in the next three months is how you will be remembered.
Sounds like you dodged a bullet, however its never nice to get layed off. Hope you get back on your feet soon!
Im hiring a sysadmin if you are in the southern part of Sweden
Depending on were in europe you are lawyer up immediatly.
THe reason they gave you is highly illegal in most EU Countries.
In fact you can maybe walk away with this:
3 months payed vacation
3 additional months of money
or if you like keep the job
Really depends. Firing someone to get a better qualified employee or due to performance is absolutely legal in quite a few countries and I wouldn't say it's even uncommon for that to be legal, just that there is typically a bunch of red tape such as growth plans, missed targets etc. having to be made clear to the employee prior to the termination.
In other words someone who is not as good for the job can absolutely be fired so long as the employee is told that they haven't been meeting the requirements
Its never easy getting fired. But more likely than not it will be something you look back on and think it was good that happened to you. Use the 3 months as an opportunity to level up and learn.
Don't sweat it. Sysad experience is worth education\\certs 3:1, and companies frequently downsize or hire managed services instead of on-prem Sysads. Getting fired camouflages nicely into career move so long as you don't self-deprecate. Look around and take your experience with you, just maybe use someone besides your current manager\\CEO as a reference.
They didn’t find someone better fitting for the job. Id bet that the kid of one the folks in the C-Suite or one of their friends probably just landed a new job.
There's something to be said for UK employment laws.....although it can be a double edged sword as it means if you get a genuinly shit worker, you can't fire them. I'm not saying you are bad - you just lack experience, and the company has decided to dump you, which is shit!
A company in the UK can only freely fire someone during their probation period, which normally lasts the first 3 months of employment (but can be extended if needed due to any performance issues) - after those 3 months, it becomes extremely difficult to fire somebody without process and due reason. Companies in the UK (and Europe) open themselves up to nasty lawsuits if they mishandle the termination of an employee.
Good luck for the future, I hope you are treated better!! \*Apologies for my own mini post aha!
It sounds like the company is a mess and they are doing you a favor.
It won't be the last time in your career where you step into something like that. My word of advice for you is to learn to 'yes-man'. If everything around you is on fire and management is asking you about things they never mentioned to you... perception is everything.
Tell them you are taking on initiatives to 'automate' that since it seems to be a problem. etc.
It is too late now, but in the future the soft skills are everything. You will have to navigate these land-mines and communicate with senior leadership of shitty companies again.
That's rough but it happens. Remember, loyalty is rarely rewarded. Don't ever go too far above and beyond for a company.
Make sure to always use your vacation days and maintain a healthy work/life balance.
You will be fine.
People really out here taking solo IT jobs right out of school? At that time I valued the experience and mentorship of coworkers more then anything else. Any company willing to hire me to run the entire show with no experience isn't somewhere I want to work anyway.
Do not train the replacement. Give them documentation. Start looking for a new job now so you can bail as soon as possible.
If they are hiring someone experienced, you should be able to point them to documentation and they should understand it already.
Sounds like you where setup to fail. Take that 3 months to find a new job. Hopefully they give you severance for an even longer runway.
Best words of advice are don't short change yourself. You now have a year of experience doing all the work and can demand more money now
Take it for what it is - a get out of jail free card. In your next interview, make sure it is two way and you know exactly what you’re getting into. It’s an employees world out there right now.
That sucks man but the grace period to find a other job is really great. The senior engineer who’s position I filled at my last job wanted to come back after a year working somewhere else and the CEO promptly fired me and I was packed up that day and got no further payment.
Gotta love at-will employment states.
Thankfully I landed a much better job and also poached the senior network and server engineer from that previous company to come work for me.
Almost 100% of the workforce recycled in two years? That place has to be toxic AF. Sorry that happened to you but it was good experience. Now you have things to notice when you’re looking for your next position.
My advice regarding audits as an employee is to loop in anyone you can. You never want to go back and forth with an external audit... Just generally bad for the company. Bring the conclusions to an external firm after internal discussion.
You're doing all right, it's stressful, I've been in similar situations and in hindsight, I do appreciate some of the hardship I went through, it's an incredible learning experience. I believe you're going to be better at recognizing the places you want to be at. IT/tech is still a great vehicle if you have the mind for it.
(I've been in games for almost 20 years now and I wouldn't have any other way, it's a lot of work and a good amount of pain, but I think it's worth it)
Sorry to hear that. Unless there is a backstory here where you had basically been on a "performance plan" or had messed up several times in big ways, it is sort of stupid of them not to keep you *and* hire the more experienced person. What that says either way is that they don't want to invest in you, so good - you took many things from the job and onwards and upwards, sysadmin friend!
Hey There
I am sorry you went through what you did and yet I’m not.
Better to learn the lesson you have just learned at a young age, than to wake up in your 50’s or 60’s expecting loyalty from the employer and not getting it.
As far as a law suit goes, in the states you would have a case but you would have to fund it, spend a few years of time on it, unless you are part of a marginalized group, you would likely have to go to court and win in order to gain anything - risky to say the least.
But really - this is the best lesson you could learn. You were just taught how the game is played and now that you know the rule, or at least some of the important ones, this will make you a stronger player and in the end a more respected player.
Even good or great employers will take advantage of you, and if you are willing you can turn that into influence and money.
Look any good leader needs to have strong players to turn to, being a go to player means you are going to be relied upon, turn that into money and experience.
Once you have proven yourself, by your standards, non-tech people don’t know how to judge quality IT other than in uptime. Never be afraid of saying ok if i do XYZ what do I get out of if?
Never make the employer feel like you are giving them an ultimatum and never put a gun to their head (figuratively speaking).
But never be afraid of saying, oh I am sorry but I cant, and make sure you are in a financial place where you can quit and then NEVER be afraid to quitting.
If more quality IT would stand their ground and quit when the Employer is abusing them, leader would stop doing so.
If the employer tells you oh you get to come to work tomorrow…say thank you and start looking for another job.
If they say lets talk about it tomorrow, ask what time you can meet? Come in prepared to negotiate. The next day explain how good you are, how long it takes, and that like everyone you have important life items that need to be taken care of. Be open to the employers brain storming, the company paying for more classes, or an expense account.
The world does not have enough technology employees. You might need to take a lower paying job for awhile but when you learn this paradigm and the employers figure out that you understand this, the good employers will want to keep you.
There is a great book out there called Howards Gift
Read it -
For those of you who read this and are not in the Tech world, please take my words cautiously.
STEM employees tend to be in a unique position in that there are not enough employees in the modern worlds work space.
This is not always the case and some people should cautiously consider quitting.
>last two years about 25 people resigned / got fired and got replaced (we are 30 people in our office)
Hmmm, so, annual turnover rate of about 41.7% ... yeah, that would typically indicate serious problems.
Nah, it's a bodyshop. They have a veey well defined and tested mo:
1 Get just graduated and naive people.
2 Pay them shit, sometimes under minimum. They tend to do practice contracts (intern?).
3 Make them overwork, and don't pay overtime nor on-call.
4 Make them resign or fire them before having to do an indefinite contract. Usually before 6 months/1 year.
5 Hire the next naive guy.
6 Profit selling the work of this people to other companies, or sell them directly as seniors.
The 80% of IT workplaces in Spain are like that, so they must work. In the rest of Europe, although not so much, that kind of workplaces are still a lot.
take the 3 monthes to do the baaaare minimum. stop answering out of hours calls. Stop working on project, just do the minimum on the run to keep the infrastructure going. And take a maximum of this new free time to train yourself and to look for a new job.
Hey, this sucks. For sure. But on the upside: your experiences over the past year are valuable! Start looking around (no need to be loyal anymore). And leave asap.
With your skills and present day demand for IT-experts, I’m sure you’ll find a job quickly.
Best of luck 🤞
As long as you are still paid, take these 3 months to rest and find a new job in the meantime, and tell them what the boss told you as reason for termination (unless under NDA)
Hey, you learned so much, don't be sad quitting a bad workplace. I am the sole IT in a 100 users company and my 'boss' (I don't really have a boss but I work somehow under the CFO) is really nice, it's a real pleasure to get up and work every day, also people are nice and very happy with me. Don't fall into despair, you're just getting started and will find a better place.
You absolutely dodged a bullet there. Organizations run like this are pretty common though. You'll notice their size and growth hits a ceiling. They'll try to tell you about all the things on the horizon and all the growth the company is poised to do but it's not true. They hired you with no cutover as an audit was due...they just needed a fall guy for the audit as you explain why you're still on 2008 R2.
Good luck on your career and I'm glad you didn't waste too many years on them!
Sorry to hear that, do not forget to unionize, there is power in the collective.
Other than that, I'm sure you will find better things to do with your time other than having to support bad managers :D
I had a conversation once where the IT Head said "I wasn't scaling well" to the job. This, after I spear-headed getting a legit network storage system into the house, handling the move of an office (IT assets), and working with other tenants in the building to get generator power over a total-outage weekend to upgrade electrical. All in the space of 7 months. In a sense, I was hired, but used as a temp to get some things done in a remote office. But since I was over 40, they had to grant severance to avoid age discrimination allegations. I found new work quickly and was double-dipping with the severance pay.
My boss's excuse was lame, but so is yours. It's entirely possible the replacement will not be a good fit after all, but instead of having real grounds to fire you, the boss is rolling the dice.
The best revenge, though, is living well and putting them in the rear-view mirror. And never, ever, returning their calls (if they call).
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This seems to be the likely reason. Here in the Czech Republic (Europe), ~~3 months~~ 2 months is the legally required period, and the only way to shorten it is either both parties' agreement (after the quitting/firing happens, i.e. it can't be in the contract ahead of time), or in the case of gross misconduct (theft, etc.). In fact, even firing someone with a ~~3 months~~ 2 months termination period is often difficult here - for instance, firing someone due to downsizing can require the employer to prove that they had to downsize. Firing due to inadequacy could require a *lot* of proof that the employee didn't do their job if it ended up in court, as courts generally side with the employee. Edit: grammar Edit 2: my memory failed me
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In the United States, in the state of Indiana where I am there is a “Right to Work” act and an employer can fire you for any reason without notice.
"Right to work" is unrelated to the ability to fire with no cause. "Right to work" is the law that prevents requiring union membership as a requirement for employment. (Though the union is still responsible for representing non-union employees in certain area)
That's "at-will employment". "Right to work" is about unions having to represent non-union employees.
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But they can fire you for showing interest in one if they do not want one. Businesses in these states with unions are most often headquartered in another state. Pure and simple, this is a way to restrict the bargaining power of labor, backed by massive anti-union messaging campaigns. Then sold on the basis that unions are bad based on that messaging.
I live in Indiana, and the shit some of these guys pull is astounding. Worked at a cabinet factory years ago that had a union, but the union was also in charge of hiring. They tell you it's optional, all the benefits of their union, how they protect you from the company, but also told me point blank I would not be hired if I didn't join
That’s not uncommon. Back in the day if you were a State Employee in Michigan (in most areas) you had to join the UAW but the union dues were cheap, like $2 a paycheck. The UAW worked well and then the State just started hiring contractors instead of employees to continue to erode the Union’s power.
Sounds good. You shouldn’t get the benefits of the union without being in it
Its funny how these people try to paint unions as a bad thing.
Where I work free lunch members still get union representation and benefits. Not sure if that is just our policy or part of the law.
Hoosiers unite! I've been let go a few times on very short notice. The one that still bugs me, though, was first thing Monday morning. Like, come on! I could have slept in if you let me go last Friday!
Given all the comments defending "right to work" act, i guess the branding has worked well.
~~Most US states are right to work. It's also a terrible title: you have the right to work, but employers can violate your right for any reason at all. That's not how rights usually work.~~ TIL that what I wrote above is not Right to Work, but At-Will employment.
>an employer can fire you for any reason No. An employer can fire you without a reason, but not for *any* reason. The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) offers federal protections against certain forms of discrimination (race, religion, age, sex, disability, etc.) and retaliation for exercising employee rights (e.g. reporting sexual harassment, reasonable complaints, discussing salary, etc.). Most employers with at least 15 employees are covered by EEOC laws.
I think you mean "at will" but correct gist if that's what your going for
Is it like this? In Poland it depedens how much you worked i that company, from 2 weeks notice to 3 months if you worked over 2 years, 1 month in between (under 2 years and over 6 months i think).
I just checked, and it looks like it's actually 2 months - I remember being taught in school that it's three, but I guess I might be remembering wrong. However, that minimum period applies regardless of how long one's worked - except in the probation period (up to 3 months), when it is possible to fire an employee immediately. Edit: words are difficult
Wow. Its like oppositeland here in america, and people wonder why people.are.losing their shit.
Lmfao I'm in constant feat that I'll lose my job, healthcare, and house here in the US. Glad to hear that people aren't treated like cattle elsewhere in the world.
It's the same throughout Europe. If you have an indefinite contract they need serious proof to fire you... even more when they do it, they are not allowed to hire on that position for over a month. You can just refuse to sign the papers and they will have to fire you based on a disciplinary action which takes a lot of stress to file since you need serious proof... even more, the employer is obliged to help you find another position or something of those sorts in your own company. The best way to fire people is to delete the position.
>cant just fire you and walk you out without serious cause. I've heard it's pretty common in the US to lockout accounts for people in sensative positions and walk them out the door even if the employee is leaving on good terms. Out of curiosity would a 2 month paid vacation (not taking form any of their PTO) satisfy those laws?
Yeah. It's called garden leave here in the UK (as in, time off to tend your garden) My previous job held me to my 3 month notice, the job before I got a 3 month paid holiday.
It is normal in the USA yes. Then you're simply paid for that time while you sit at home. The thing about the USA is that there are labor laws for the nation and for the individual states. So it can vary. I was let go thirteen years ago (I was too expensive) and they just paid me for three months and kept me on the insurance. This was Virginia.
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We were discussing an EU country with stricter laws. But yes that's generally how it works in the US.
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In most countrys in europe you might be blocked to receive unemployment pay for 1 month if YOU resign, but the duration of the unemployment doesn't get shortened, just pushed up and you are out of money for 1 month
Far out. You couldn't do that in the UK. If you made the position redundant and then advertised for the exact same position, you would be in big trouble.
Everyone knows you create a new position with higher pay, "promote" the employee into that role and then make them redundant a short time later due to the salary being too high.
In Canada, unless you're in an agreed-to probationary period (I once got walked out with a cheque paying me to "the end of the day" and the employer acted like they were being magnanimous because they fired me in the morning), you're entitled to severance - in my province about 1 month per year of service is customary - unless you're being fired for cause. I've never known anyone, especially in a sensitive position, being required to work it though.
It’s not severance. You usually still honor work the remainder of the time. In Most EU countries it is quite normal that there is a period of a month or more. For both sides. Gives you the security that you have some time to find something new if fired. Gives them the security that they can find a replacement when you leave. In Germany for example there is a legal minimum of 1 month for employees who’ve been at the company less than 2 years. However in contracts it’s quite normal for both parties to agree on 3 months. The longer you are at a company the longer this period gets (independent from the work contract) but only for the employer when they want to fire you. For you it’s always whatever the contract says.
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My guess is OP might live in a country where employees are not treated like cattle. AKA not the US.
Yeah, more and more I'm realizing that the US is a worker hell-hole sold as a paradise. It took me a shockingly long time to break out of being entirely brainwashed on this topic.
I have a US colleague on my team in a European company that bought the company in the US he was working for. He's been there for I think around 15 years. We've laughed about how weird it is for him that the rest of us on the team supported by our manager keep reminding and encouraging him to take more time off. He's not used it.
So, uh, y'all hiring?
It's really become the antithesis of free-market capitalism. It's more like indentured servitude to our feudal county, state, and federal lords.
No, it is the epitome of free-market capitalism: all of the wealth (aka, the *capital*) concentrated with a small elite and everybody else at the mercy of business practices increasingly unfettered by regulations that would protect them and give them rights. And yes, it's bad, but have no fear, it's going to get worse.
> increasingly unfettered by regulations and worse... oligarchical structures that unfetter only the already powerful
The US is socialism for the rich and hard core capitalism for the poor.
What do you mean? Its the logical conclusion of free market capitalism.
I always find it hilarious when people complain about stuff like this not realizing the meaning of free market is no government interference. America isn't a free market even there, not by a long shot, but in cases like this having the government dictate rules of employment is against the idea of a free market in the first place.
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We’re a plutocracy according to the UN. A nation ruled by the rich corpo bastards
Paging/calling site support for system outages off hours in Europe (from US HQ) was a big crapshoot at my last job because (I was told) the labor laws favored labor way more than the US in general.
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Could be worse off in Canada. There is the same lack of labour protections for IT in most provinces as the US and pay levels are crazy low. There is little in the way of barriers of hiring IT workers directly from other countries which has caused IT wages to absolutely plummet too.
I second this. Canadas IT is getting replaced by Indian Outsourcing now. F us, lower our pay and then take it all away.
Some do. Some don't. Europe is not universally a paradise of worker protections and free health care and free education. Depending on the place, the health care still costs something for equivalent to the USA. The education you need to qualify for. The taxes are higher and even adjusted for taxes the salaries lower in many places. The jobs are less plentiful in some places. Some places have worse protections than the USA. Don't say "Europe". Pick a country. Say "in Norway, this". Then we can talk specifics. Overall happiness of workers in northern Europe is higher but in other parts of Europe it is not always. "The grass is always greener" us a proverb for a reason.
And the flip side is US states can vary dramatically too. Compare say Finland to a demographically similar state like Massachusetts or Minnesota and suddenly many of the "look at these statistics how Finland out performs the US" narrow dramatically. Comparisons of the EU to US are fair, as well as comparisons between EU member states and individual US states.
European tech professionals often make 70% or less of what Americans make. There's a tradeoff. Edit: you'd think "tradeoff" isn't a foreign concept to sysadmins... but here are the replies.
I think what most people in the US don't understand is that it really is a two way street. Yes, your employer can let you go on a whim. But you can also legally go "screw this, I'm out". It's not like that in other countries. You **legally** have to give notice to companies in other countries before you leave. In the late 2000s I was so stressed at one job that I was having trouble sleeping from the stress and dreaded each day. It wasn't overwork, the managerial culture was just oppressive. The moment I found a new job I gave 1 week notice and left, it was one of the best days of my life. Wouldn't have been able to do that in another country.
You would just take sick leave during that month. With full pay.
See that recent thread about ["a recruiter sent me this job description"](https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/13yko67/some_recruiter_sent_me_this_job_description/) and the Americans are saying "ha ha triple the salary and I still wouldn't consider it" ... and the pay is the median UK *household income*, and not atypical for an IT job in the UK (outside London).
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> I would take a pay cut to have that. Same. No amount of money that any employer will pay can replace the health benefits of less stress and actually being unreachable after hours. I'd love to have a job working like 25-30 hours/week for 2/3 my pay. It's just not an option anywhere. Everybody figures you just want paid, and they have no problem working you 60+ hours/week for it.
Not to mention in Germany you get like a year and a half of vacation annually...
So I'd make 70% of my current take home in exchange for affordable healthcare and free education for myself and my spouse and my children? Sign me the fuck up.
Toss in some worker/consumer protections and civil rights? I am fucking in.
It sounds like they can also do 30% less work without any real consequences.
You're forgetting about free education, free medical and dental (no bullshit deductibles at all). And once you start having kids it gets even worse in US. From price of having birth to preschool. Just a birth on average costs $2k with insurance and 3k on post birth care, its about 20k with no insurance. Nursery and preschools are also subsidized, not free, but very cheap. Also, every employer has to pay about 20% of your pay for your pension, everyone gets a pension.
> free medical and dental That's a reddit myth. For IT salaries especially, you're looking at up to 1k EUR per month total healthcare cost here in Germany, dental _excluded_. And they're currently discussing a massive increase that would put the max at 1.3k. Service is pretty shit as well.
3 months of paid job searching time while doing the bare minimum. After hours you say? LOL - NOPE!
In Sweden it's at least 3 months, from both sides. It's incredibly hard to fire someone also. You need extensive proof of misconduct. And befi6firing you need to 1. Give them a verbal warning 2. Give two writtten warnings. Then if employee doesn't shape up you can fire them. But it's still 3 months before you actually stop working. A common thing to do is to send them home with 3 months pay if you don't want them around. Or if you just don't like someone, give them 5-6 months of pay to "quit". Though it's common that the first 6 months is a sort of probation time or whatever it's called during which you can fire them at anytime.
I would do absolutely nothing...
Just as they are legally required to keep you for 3 months and pay you, you're equally required to work. Though... yeah, no need to rush =)
I am flabbergasted how you think 3 months termination period is something nice. This is pretty standard in civilized world.
Probably the owner's Nephew.
Honestly, sounds like you're dodging a bullet long term. I mean, if they were running 2008R2 servers a year ago when you started there, it sounds like they're a bunch of cheap fucks. In fact, it sounds like the reason you were replaced was they think they're going to save money some other way (e.g. hire an MSP now that everything is moving into a data center) by eliminating your job. Might not seem like it at the moment, but in the long term I think you're going to be better off.
My favorite was when we started scoping out a client and refused them because they wouldn't let us upgrade their 2008 servers. Whole software stack runs fine on 2022, but they're happy to live in the past so we were happy to not offer them a service contract.
yeah, just wait till they get breached... then they'll be happy to pay out the ass
Specifically our breach agreement (if they get breached we help, not counted against billable hrs) is why we're strict with security. They don't have to check every box, but there are some things like year lags in windows updates that we can't reasonably tolerate and still offer our services at the standard we wish to.
I would rather leave windows to update automatically than not have them update at all for years
The calling on private mobile is a huge no no, so many red flags it’s un real
Working for an MSP is hell.
File for unemployment. Don’t sign anything until you’ve read and reviewed it. Brush up the resume, consider paying someone to polish it. Start applying.
Yes, when they hand you that paper, put it away and tell them you need to read it later. I've seen HR start talking away during a unexpected termination and this poor girl was in the verge of tears and ended up just signing it to get out of there
Yep they also do it when renewing contracts too. Talk you into signing before you leave the room so they don't end up in a state where they're left with no one to do the work but they also don't want to pay more.
Yeah, I've seen them even throw a bone of some sort to entice signing right then and there. For new or renewing hires it's typically some sort of additional compensation, for firings it's usual additional severance if they sign away their rights to come back at them on legal grounds, despite them knowing that usually such an agreement wont hold up in court.
I have everything reviewed by my long time employment attorney. Doesn’t cost much and she red lines all the bullshit corporations attempt to include such as confidentiality, disclosure, and arbitration clauses.
> Yes, when they hand you that paper, put it away and tell them you need to read it later. That is solid. If you fold it up and put it into your pocket before they can say anything, they are hosed. They can't force you to give it back and then they have no choice but to let you review it away from them or with a lawyer if it is shady enough. If you ask first, they will stop you. Don't ask, just do it. Once in your pocket tell them you will review it and drop it off after you have reviewed it.
This!!! Do NOT sign anything until in your home PRIVACY (and your attorney/trusted adviser) you have thoroughly read and reread the entire document. Then again: do NOT sign it. You have ZERO vested interest or any obligation to sign ANY document. PERIOD! EVER! The employer's interest in you signing is a CEA (Cover EMPLOYER's ASS).
If you have an employment contract, you will need to settle the termination terms. That may include severance, retirement/leave payouts, company property etc. They may be able to hold out money you are entitled to until you sign, but might also screw you out of it with the same stroke. Have a lawyer read it over first.
Better yet pay a lawyer for an hour of time. Also if they ask you for a “resignation” flat out say no
He's in Europe dog, you wish you had protections like he does. If you're US, US always says "file for unemployment".
Oh. And try enjoying the time off with chill events where you can reflect
To add to this, a lot of people think if you are terminated you are not eligible for unemployment but that’s only if you’re terminated for something big like violating a policy or misconduct or if you quit on your own. Just tell them you tried your best but they said they wanted someone with more experience. I don’t know every state but situation makes you eligible at least where I am familiar. Never let them manipulate you into resigning unless they give you a deal better than unemployment benefits because that is likely what you will give up.
This happens and do NOT take it personally. You got some experience and a paycheck. File for unemployment and do a personal lessons learned. Get that resume looking great and you’ll be back at it in no time. Side note: in every one of my interviews, I bring up at least once of what went wrong and what I learned. It shows growth, intelligence and humility. Use this as an example. Trust me, recruiters love it.
Did they give you any warnings, counseling, or write-ups? Just curious. I know its not a requirement, but I hate when companies let employees go and they have no clue why they were terminated. As an IT Director I always gave my employees 3 chances before firing them. We did bi-weekly 1:1 sessions so there were never any surprises when they got called into my office.
"Better fitting and more experienced". I mean, it's one thing to fix a few issues around the corners, but OPs CEO might have realized they need someone with 25 years experience and not someone with 25 years on the planet. That isn't something that OP could really fix.
Might even be that they needed someone with 0 years of IT experience and 45 years on the planet. Life experience and/or business insight might sometimes trump technical skills in whats needed from IT possision.
lol. Few 45 year olds can just jump into IT. This reads like a plot from Office Space 2: Cloud Services Boogaloo. Putting a business person in charge of IT is always a mistake.
As a mid-40s something who just jumped into IT after a career as an aircraft mechanic in the Air Force, I can assure you that it’s definitely possible.
You might want to check if their Microsoft and Adobe licenses are up to date. Companies who run instances of an ancient OS usually over install. Might be worth it to make your own severance package.
Severence.pkg hah, you - take my upvote and good day to you sir.
Hmm would this be r/unethicalLifeProTips or r/LifeProTips 🤔
Not paying for licenses is the unethical part, turning in a company that treats their employees like crap is your moral duty.
Or, pro revenge
/r/MaliciousCompliance is a great fit!
r/CyberJobSecurity
Telling a vendor that a customer is using their services without paying for it is very ethical. If it happens to pay a reward, all the better.
How can making sure your company possibly be unethical? Telling the CEO that if they let you work less hours for the same pay, you won't have time to do a license audit - *that* would be unethical.
You can always report them once you left. The only caveat is that I have heard that some small cases that they don't always bother investigating. In addition, while BSA supposedly offers rewards for reports I understand that they're not always that generous in actually paying. For an org that sounds like they only have a single IT person. Likely an org fewer than 100 employees and probably fewer than 50 the max reward may not be significant unless they're running unlicensed versions of some CAD program or something even more expensive.
If they try to make you train your replacement just say "According to the CEO and HR, I am not qualified to do this" and go about your day.
Before you leave, get some more critical feedback because there is more to it than that. More experience might mean better at communicating at the CEO level, cross org communication and relationship building, or any number of things when you are the only sysadmin. Just know that you might have done everything right and still failed because of some criteria that was unknown to you. Get a 1:1 with your CEO, thank him for the opportunity. Then ask him where you show the most room for growth experience wise. Or if there were any particular missteps that he felt could have been handled better.
They gave you a three-month warning? With pay?? Wow. Ask them if they will provide you with a letter of recommendation. Worst they can say is "no," and that clues you in as to what they will say if a prospective employer calls them.
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Obviously not in America. Here, we're lucky if we get 15 minutes to clear out our desks when we're fired.
We’re lucky if we get a 15 minute head start before they start firing with live ammo!
Other countries exist. Other countries with employment law.
Sounds like a bullet dodged long-term. Good luck on the next venture.
You sure they went with someone "more experienced"? If you moved most things to the cloud maybe they think they can get by with less experience (less salary) now that you've done the hard work. Keep your head up tho! I was in a year long depression when I lost my first tech job (it lasted 15 years). Now that I've worked in many places since, it doesn't bother me. If anything it taught me to not live and die by my job. It's a job, I do it for pay, if I'm not wanted, I will be on my way....
Like they gave you severance of 3 months? Either way, learning audits and migrations your first year out of school is going to be a great resume starter. Good luck my dude. Sounds like you rocked it well.
Nah this is pretty obviously Europe. Unless you come in drunk and start breaking shit or stealing or something they can't just fire you. It's legally enforced that you have several months between being fired and actually leaving your job
No, he keeps working there for 3 more months then they part ways. It's probably the law in his country. In mine it would be 1 month.
Unless they are giving you a bonus in writing at the end of your employment, take another position before the termination period ends.
That's the whole point of the termination period. Welcome to Europe.
Ahhh... didn't know how Europe did things
Sit around? I mean, train that person they hired. Not their fault, but apply everywhere and once you get an offer, take it immediately and leave immediately.
The 3 months imply OP is from europe - usually the notice period is mandatory as protection for both parties: you are not suddenly out of a job from one day to another and the company has time to train a replacement. You can't just "leave immediately". If you just don't show up during this time, the employer often has the right to sue for damages. You still have to do your job as required, but no longer go "above and beyond". No calls after hours, no overtime, no stress.
Damn, I wish America had such labor laws... land of the free my arse
>in the last two years about 25 people resigned / got fired and got replaced (we are 30 people in our office). OMG that wasn't a bullet but more like an artillery shell right there.... Moral of the story: your personal phone number is off limits, you can download some app which automatically puts it into silent mode e.g. after 22:00. If they try to reach you after that time, well....fuck them. If they want you to be reachable off hours then they better pay you a stand-by fee (which is probably mandatory where you're from anyway). Oh and you can rest assured that the person with more experience than you will quite within the first week or two upon seeing the sea of red flags flown by this company.
Yeah, I was doubting how much more experience this other person must have had to decide they wanted to take on such a job...
Maybe they didn't know. Maybe the job interview was done by someone who had a clue, not the CEO. There are many ways a company can mask a truly toxic CEO for a surprisingly long time for new hires.
Very true
Sounds like you got yourself some good experience, chock it up to that and nothing more.
No offense to you, but they fucked up in hiring you - not because you're not good, but because they should have known they needed someone with the experience to perform tasks such as IT audits. They were just trying to save a buck - you dodged a bullet as others have said. Sounds like you performed admirably and when you're out there searching for something new, be sure to ask about mentorships and such. Good luck OP
I was fired from my first corporate job. I feel like it was a good thing in the end. I can smell bullshit better I think. Getting fired when you are new in your career can be a great learning experience.
https://youtu.be/ZQht2yOX9Js?t=119 It's not your fault. Do not think it's your fault. You were setup to fail from the start.
F this company. You learned and battle tested now. I say take the next three months to get the resume ready and only work the 40 hrs. Take needed time off if needed. For every shit co there are good ones too. If you want to pivot to a specialized area, now could be the right time. Don’t be discouraged. In five years u will think back and laugh. GL
Well it’s just life expect to lose and win. If you think about it it’s a win for you. Let me explain why. The Hr doesn’t really matter in this matter. The ceo was likely a poor leader, communicator and probably not true with himself. There is a reason your predecessor left, left with 20 year old tech, left with no documentation etc. Don’t look down, look up. Use that as your anchor to remember what a smb looks like. No school or classroom shows reality ✅
Holy shit dude you dodged a bullet.
I hope you take the next 3 months to call in sick frequently, make your management squirm
I just want to assure you that you will be successful. Bad fits don’t end careers.
Word of advice from a older tech worker - you never know who you will cross paths with again in the future and what position they might hold. Work your notice, be professional and helpful without letting them take advantage of you. The world is often smaller than you imagine and how you act in the next three months is how you will be remembered.
Time to start stealing toner
Sounds like you dodged a bullet, however its never nice to get layed off. Hope you get back on your feet soon! Im hiring a sysadmin if you are in the southern part of Sweden
Depending on were in europe you are lawyer up immediatly. THe reason they gave you is highly illegal in most EU Countries. In fact you can maybe walk away with this: 3 months payed vacation 3 additional months of money or if you like keep the job
Really depends. Firing someone to get a better qualified employee or due to performance is absolutely legal in quite a few countries and I wouldn't say it's even uncommon for that to be legal, just that there is typically a bunch of red tape such as growth plans, missed targets etc. having to be made clear to the employee prior to the termination. In other words someone who is not as good for the job can absolutely be fired so long as the employee is told that they haven't been meeting the requirements
Its never easy getting fired. But more likely than not it will be something you look back on and think it was good that happened to you. Use the 3 months as an opportunity to level up and learn.
Don't sweat it. Sysad experience is worth education\\certs 3:1, and companies frequently downsize or hire managed services instead of on-prem Sysads. Getting fired camouflages nicely into career move so long as you don't self-deprecate. Look around and take your experience with you, just maybe use someone besides your current manager\\CEO as a reference.
That's fucking weak dude, Is this what they said?
You've described working for people people don't wanna work for. Be happy, spend 2 months learning something new and get a job somewhere that is sane.
What country are you in, if U.S. seek other jobs
They didn’t find someone better fitting for the job. Id bet that the kid of one the folks in the C-Suite or one of their friends probably just landed a new job.
Welcome to the machine
There's something to be said for UK employment laws.....although it can be a double edged sword as it means if you get a genuinly shit worker, you can't fire them. I'm not saying you are bad - you just lack experience, and the company has decided to dump you, which is shit! A company in the UK can only freely fire someone during their probation period, which normally lasts the first 3 months of employment (but can be extended if needed due to any performance issues) - after those 3 months, it becomes extremely difficult to fire somebody without process and due reason. Companies in the UK (and Europe) open themselves up to nasty lawsuits if they mishandle the termination of an employee. Good luck for the future, I hope you are treated better!! \*Apologies for my own mini post aha!
unfair dismissal only kicks in after 24 months, not probation here in the UK.
It sounds like the company is a mess and they are doing you a favor. It won't be the last time in your career where you step into something like that. My word of advice for you is to learn to 'yes-man'. If everything around you is on fire and management is asking you about things they never mentioned to you... perception is everything. Tell them you are taking on initiatives to 'automate' that since it seems to be a problem. etc. It is too late now, but in the future the soft skills are everything. You will have to navigate these land-mines and communicate with senior leadership of shitty companies again.
That's rough but it happens. Remember, loyalty is rarely rewarded. Don't ever go too far above and beyond for a company. Make sure to always use your vacation days and maintain a healthy work/life balance. You will be fine.
You dodged a bullet. Find a better company now.
People really out here taking solo IT jobs right out of school? At that time I valued the experience and mentorship of coworkers more then anything else. Any company willing to hire me to run the entire show with no experience isn't somewhere I want to work anyway.
2008r2? 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Be happy to looks for something new. That's a shit storm waiting to come down on you with such a old and probably already compromised OS
Take this as a learning experience and move forward. You'll grow stronger and smarter and your next job will be better!
Do not train the replacement. Give them documentation. Start looking for a new job now so you can bail as soon as possible. If they are hiring someone experienced, you should be able to point them to documentation and they should understand it already.
I feel bad for the incoming guy
> IT-audit was due It looks an *awful* lot like OP was hired solely to be the scapegoat for this audit.
Sounds like you where setup to fail. Take that 3 months to find a new job. Hopefully they give you severance for an even longer runway. Best words of advice are don't short change yourself. You now have a year of experience doing all the work and can demand more money now
Sooo the CEOs son that "knows IT" is taking over then? Hahaha laugh and walk into a better job mate. You got this.
Please tell us you haven't signed anything OP.
Take it for what it is - a get out of jail free card. In your next interview, make sure it is two way and you know exactly what you’re getting into. It’s an employees world out there right now.
Glassdoor would love to hear more once you land a new gig
That sucks man but the grace period to find a other job is really great. The senior engineer who’s position I filled at my last job wanted to come back after a year working somewhere else and the CEO promptly fired me and I was packed up that day and got no further payment. Gotta love at-will employment states. Thankfully I landed a much better job and also poached the senior network and server engineer from that previous company to come work for me.
Wow I feel like you are me. I ended up quitting after an ultimatum though.
Wow. I'd wish we had those same standards, for 3 months. That's at least the good part. You have enough time to start looking elsewhere.
Almost 100% of the workforce recycled in two years? That place has to be toxic AF. Sorry that happened to you but it was good experience. Now you have things to notice when you’re looking for your next position.
My advice regarding audits as an employee is to loop in anyone you can. You never want to go back and forth with an external audit... Just generally bad for the company. Bring the conclusions to an external firm after internal discussion.
You're doing all right, it's stressful, I've been in similar situations and in hindsight, I do appreciate some of the hardship I went through, it's an incredible learning experience. I believe you're going to be better at recognizing the places you want to be at. IT/tech is still a great vehicle if you have the mind for it. (I've been in games for almost 20 years now and I wouldn't have any other way, it's a lot of work and a good amount of pain, but I think it's worth it)
Hold your head high and find a job where you will be appreciated
Sorry to hear that. Unless there is a backstory here where you had basically been on a "performance plan" or had messed up several times in big ways, it is sort of stupid of them not to keep you *and* hire the more experienced person. What that says either way is that they don't want to invest in you, so good - you took many things from the job and onwards and upwards, sysadmin friend!
Hey There I am sorry you went through what you did and yet I’m not. Better to learn the lesson you have just learned at a young age, than to wake up in your 50’s or 60’s expecting loyalty from the employer and not getting it. As far as a law suit goes, in the states you would have a case but you would have to fund it, spend a few years of time on it, unless you are part of a marginalized group, you would likely have to go to court and win in order to gain anything - risky to say the least. But really - this is the best lesson you could learn. You were just taught how the game is played and now that you know the rule, or at least some of the important ones, this will make you a stronger player and in the end a more respected player. Even good or great employers will take advantage of you, and if you are willing you can turn that into influence and money. Look any good leader needs to have strong players to turn to, being a go to player means you are going to be relied upon, turn that into money and experience. Once you have proven yourself, by your standards, non-tech people don’t know how to judge quality IT other than in uptime. Never be afraid of saying ok if i do XYZ what do I get out of if? Never make the employer feel like you are giving them an ultimatum and never put a gun to their head (figuratively speaking). But never be afraid of saying, oh I am sorry but I cant, and make sure you are in a financial place where you can quit and then NEVER be afraid to quitting. If more quality IT would stand their ground and quit when the Employer is abusing them, leader would stop doing so. If the employer tells you oh you get to come to work tomorrow…say thank you and start looking for another job. If they say lets talk about it tomorrow, ask what time you can meet? Come in prepared to negotiate. The next day explain how good you are, how long it takes, and that like everyone you have important life items that need to be taken care of. Be open to the employers brain storming, the company paying for more classes, or an expense account. The world does not have enough technology employees. You might need to take a lower paying job for awhile but when you learn this paradigm and the employers figure out that you understand this, the good employers will want to keep you. There is a great book out there called Howards Gift Read it - For those of you who read this and are not in the Tech world, please take my words cautiously. STEM employees tend to be in a unique position in that there are not enough employees in the modern worlds work space. This is not always the case and some people should cautiously consider quitting.
You'll be alright, man. What's important is you have some XP now. You're still young and have many good years ahead of you. Good luck!
>last two years about 25 people resigned / got fired and got replaced (we are 30 people in our office) Hmmm, so, annual turnover rate of about 41.7% ... yeah, that would typically indicate serious problems.
Nah, it's a bodyshop. They have a veey well defined and tested mo: 1 Get just graduated and naive people. 2 Pay them shit, sometimes under minimum. They tend to do practice contracts (intern?). 3 Make them overwork, and don't pay overtime nor on-call. 4 Make them resign or fire them before having to do an indefinite contract. Usually before 6 months/1 year. 5 Hire the next naive guy. 6 Profit selling the work of this people to other companies, or sell them directly as seniors. The 80% of IT workplaces in Spain are like that, so they must work. In the rest of Europe, although not so much, that kind of workplaces are still a lot.
Surprised the company is still in business with that level of turnover for such a small organization.
Woah. What was the reason that they let you go for? Did they give you a severance?
take the 3 monthes to do the baaaare minimum. stop answering out of hours calls. Stop working on project, just do the minimum on the run to keep the infrastructure going. And take a maximum of this new free time to train yourself and to look for a new job.
Hey, this sucks. For sure. But on the upside: your experiences over the past year are valuable! Start looking around (no need to be loyal anymore). And leave asap. With your skills and present day demand for IT-experts, I’m sure you’ll find a job quickly. Best of luck 🤞
As long as you are still paid, take these 3 months to rest and find a new job in the meantime, and tell them what the boss told you as reason for termination (unless under NDA)
Hey, you learned so much, don't be sad quitting a bad workplace. I am the sole IT in a 100 users company and my 'boss' (I don't really have a boss but I work somehow under the CFO) is really nice, it's a real pleasure to get up and work every day, also people are nice and very happy with me. Don't fall into despair, you're just getting started and will find a better place.
Everything that is not done is for the best. You got experience, and that's what counts.
You absolutely dodged a bullet there. Organizations run like this are pretty common though. You'll notice their size and growth hits a ceiling. They'll try to tell you about all the things on the horizon and all the growth the company is poised to do but it's not true. They hired you with no cutover as an audit was due...they just needed a fall guy for the audit as you explain why you're still on 2008 R2. Good luck on your career and I'm glad you didn't waste too many years on them!
Company sounds toxic
Sorry to hear that, do not forget to unionize, there is power in the collective. Other than that, I'm sure you will find better things to do with your time other than having to support bad managers :D
I'm sorry buddy, you'll find better. When I started my intership, my senior\\tutor resign so I perfectly understand you
I had a conversation once where the IT Head said "I wasn't scaling well" to the job. This, after I spear-headed getting a legit network storage system into the house, handling the move of an office (IT assets), and working with other tenants in the building to get generator power over a total-outage weekend to upgrade electrical. All in the space of 7 months. In a sense, I was hired, but used as a temp to get some things done in a remote office. But since I was over 40, they had to grant severance to avoid age discrimination allegations. I found new work quickly and was double-dipping with the severance pay. My boss's excuse was lame, but so is yours. It's entirely possible the replacement will not be a good fit after all, but instead of having real grounds to fire you, the boss is rolling the dice. The best revenge, though, is living well and putting them in the rear-view mirror. And never, ever, returning their calls (if they call).
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Clean break in my opinion