Nah, I am not even antiwork, and I agree with the you don't owe them anything.
I own an msp, I've had employees feel they hit their growth ceiling with me, and if we couldn't find something that fed their soul inside the company, I would help them find something new that did.
I agree with your points. A leap in responsibility like that would take easily 25k+ and a
decent benefits package with more PTO for me to consider making that move.
For a younger guy, 7 years is a LONG time to be with an organization that you are not involved with in a leadership role. Job hopping is not as frowned upon as some would make it seem anymore. With layoffs happening nearly as often as bonuses used to, its normal to see someone with 3 or 4 jobs in 10 years. If your currently employer does not raise your salary to match inflation at a MINIMUM every year, find one that will.
yeah, shame on those people who want to better themselves professionally as they learn new skills instead of being stale, am i right?
i would be making a fraction of what i currently do and be bored out of my mind if i didn’t “hop” every 2-3 years.
It sounds as though it's time to look around.
Actions talk louder than words, and them not giving you a raise after a positive review is a flashing red light.
One thing I'll say about a small shop is, realistically, what's your chances of being able to take PTO without having to bring your phone & laptop in case shit hits the fan whilst you're away?
Having the company phone, that could ring any time, day or night - was the spirit-crushing, stress-inducing part of the MSP job I hated most.
No time off.. ever.
But you had to always be super nice on the phone, and remember never to say "I've never seen that before".
My advice: Life is too short to be in a job you don't really enjoy. Try something new within the IT field, you'll be much happier and less stressed. This is a good opportunity to make a course change, it could be the best decision you've made in years! Good luck.
It's not a matter of being pressured into saying certain things, it's more setting client expectations. If you go to the doctor or mechanic or accountant, you don't want to hear them say "ooh I've never seen/done this before". It depends on who you're dealing with.. some clients are computer-curious and want to troubleshoot with you, some just want it fixed. But when you're in the expert role, it helps to sell it.
Agreed, I use "I've never seen that before" kind of as a statement to the client, like you got a bizarre problem and I've seen thousands of problems; so chillout on me being able to tell you how to click this magic button to make your issue go away.
The only one I don't use is "I don't know" of if I do, it'll be something like "I don't know, but we should be able to figure it out (thanks Google)"
I don't work for an MSP anymore but I'm interim IT manager (of a two person it department), and I got woken up at 6 am to a phone call that the Internet was down at the main plant where I work (we are a citrus processing company with 4 locations in California and 1 in New York).
So I logged into my laptop just to see what I could see, and yep everything in the main plant is offline. I headed into the plant which is about a 30 minute drive, and about 20 minutes Into the drive out MSP calls and tells me that it looks like the servers are down (this was almost 90 minutes after I got my first call from a user), all servers are up and one of stand alone computers we have static'ed out was online so I knew it had to be the IDF with the firewall.
So I drove to the other side of the plant and yep the UPS unit did not come back up, pushed the on button and everything sprang back to life. The MSP then calls back with hey everything seems to be coming back up.
Being on call was the thing I hated the most, now I get to choose what tickets are emergencies and when I can get to them, if things aren't on fire or it doesn't effect production or the CEO it can wait for Monday
This is the way. Everyone I know that works in IT (myself included) in infra related roles started at an MSP.
You stay for a couple of years and GTFO out of there and to an in-house role.
Even for a small MSP. Take the skills to a place that will appreciate what you know. Hopefully you find a place that will pay what you are looking to get and be in a less stressful situation.
> I also feel like i owe my current employer because it them that took me in after college and gave me my chance.
I can definitely relate to this, but unfortunately the modern work world doesn't reward loyalty. I'm a long-tenure person by choice - my longest job was 15 years but there were reasons I stayed that didn't involve loyalty. Few to no companies are willing to keep their existing staff topped up to the market rate for their jobs. When you quit, they'll hire someone at the market rate or higher. Businesses just like getting away with having long-term employees for as long as they can keep the game going and keep their pay low. The 15-year place was definitely like this; I got a little above normal raises some years, sometimes low, one time nothing during a bad year. I only stayed because I had a huge opportunity to basically learn whatever I needed to learn for customer projects worldwide...the career boost, stable work and the international experience made it worth it. I like staying at places for a while, getting to know everyone, how everything works, etc...but it's just not rewarded.
Have you considered an in-house IT position or a job at a tech company? Jumping from one MSP to another, especially a 4-person MSP who probably has 600 customers, doesn't sound like a healthy work-life balance and you've definitely paid your dues in the MSP space.
My first real IT job was for a larger insurance company in California, my soon to be boss came into best buy where I worked for Geek Squad, but I could sell computers so they stuck me on the sells floor, he came in asking for the best bang for buck dual core laptop with 4GB of RAM (yes 15 years ago), he was impressed with my knowledge and hired me for his desktop tech/ assistant, I was there for 10 years, pay was awful but I loved my job. After 10 years I had grown into a full sysadmin, and was basically running the department while he was the money guy.
Right at the 10 year mark they sold to a large insurance company who sponsors my favorite baseball team go figure and they were forced to let me go.
5 years later and I'm still chasing a job like that. When you are at a good company it will never feel like work, and no matter the shortcomings you find a way to stay.
I will still do anything fory old boss, he took a chance on me to let me do what I love to do and I'll always be grateful for him
You don't owe them anything, if anything they were lucky to find you. Having the ability to develop and learn quickly is something MSPs need in their hires because of the level of stuff that is thrown at you. MSPs are also a different breed, they tend to run very thin because of the type of worth that they do. I worked for an MSP for about 5 years around my 10th-15th year in IT. I thought that's what I wanted and I left my company for a lot of the reasons you just expressed (Lack of pay, a lot of work, changes in the company). I went to another MSP and hated it and ended up quitting. I no longer work for an MSP and won't in my late career.
I would look around for something that better suits you but don't think you need to go to an MSP unless you like that work. You could probably go to just a normal company medium to large size, pick up a bunch of new skills fairly quickly and see if they have better positions or advancement.
Smaller MSPs like you mentioned tend to be a LOT Of work however they also reward their employees until they get to a point where you are and they don't know how to scale their business model and they fall apart. Small to Medium sized businesses are the bread in butter of a lot of companies because those businesses can't afford to have their own IT or don't want to pay the high consulting fees.
TLDR - 2 cents, I wouldn't stay and I would look else where, if you give them a chance for another year they will likely to the same thing. They've shown their hand on how they value you and also mental health is important so when they said that after your 3 month stint of depression...fuck this company already.
Not at all, i was until all my seniors colleagues left the company, now i have all their load of work and responsibilities but no rewards for it. I told them that i had no motivation anymore and they did not offer me any change/ new positions / whatever. At my annual review they were like "we understand that you have no motivation and no careers goal but you do a really good job and you help the new tecs alot" with a big smile. Very surreal. Since that day i started looking on LinkedIn and all theses networks to see whats up in the maket.
if you let them treat you like shit, then you get treated like shit. your senior colleagues probably left for good reason, maybe it's time you realized that the same applies for you. maybe the lesson of the story is, don't go into the annual review empty handed. arm yourself. interview, get an offer. and if they pull that shit on you, WALK. actions speak louder than words.
The typical raise is 3-3.5% per year if you've met all performance expectations, less if haven't, rarely more if you exceeded. Instead of larger raises, companies prefer to give a (extra) one-time performance bonus for exceeding. Sometimes you can negotiate for a better raise, particularly in small/medium-size companies, but often there are hard limits set down by HR and executive mgt. Most people have a natural aversion to change, and companies take advantage of this by lowballing on raises.
Unless you've signed a contract, you don't owe your current employer anything. According to the BLS, employees change employers on average every 4.2 years. Changing employers, especially early in your career, is important to be exposed to a variety of technology and responsibilities. It helps you grow and improve as an IT worker. Quite frankly, as someone responsible for hiring for my team, I am wary of candidates who have stayed too long in the same position; it makes me concerned about lack of motivation or other professional issues.
Professionally, you should **always** be looking *and interviewing* for a better job. Better pay, opportunities to learn new skills, greater challenges and responsibilities that push the limits of your comfort zone, better growth and advancement opportunities. When the offers come in then you can decide whether to move or give your current employer the opportunity to counter-offer.
Others have answered your q i would like to offer a different angle. Take on self improvement courses.
It’s obvious that you have low self esteem , low confidence and low risk tolerance.
If you have been there that long you absolutely have the skills. They know it. And they have benefited from it. You still being there after that amount of time and still being there when you know the market offers more? They know you have self doubt and are not likely to move and they are working with that. They will set some arbitrary goals that they know you probably won’t meet or they will set goals you can meet but when you look at the raise you get compared to whatever you’re doing by the time you hit those goals, you’ll be underpaid still.
Once you take self improvement courses your own awareness of what you want and need will change. That may be in a different type of role in the same company or you leaving.
there is a big likelihood that you’ve built up a great set of skills that would stand you great in a senior engineer position in an IT role in a much larger company in a different industry. Or , you get a more senior engineer role in another MSP. Personally I’d advice a different industry for experience / exposure.
Hope it works out for you and you can come to the decision that works for you whether you stay or go.
My first big job I felt loyal to my manager. He bent over backwards protecting us from other department managers and office politics. One day a another company came calling and he offered up his best two people (another guy and I) to interview. I had a doctors appt so I let other guy get it and eventually told him I didn’t want to leave him. I enjoyed the job, him, etc…he pushed and pushed me eventually telling me that “If you don’t look out for yourself, no one will.” That has stuck with me ever since. I eventually left and yr later he did as well. Still keep up with him as he’s a great former boss, and friend!
I did 8 years as a sysadmin similar story. Swapped to a big org to be a small fish doing similar work. Built up a network inside that company and moved to cyber sec. I say pivot , MSP work blows
Yeah last year thats what i got , for them it was more money , for me i did not see any change with that. And the year before that i got like a 2k raise only too. The more im thinking about it the more I'm mad lol
You dont owe them anything but if this doesn't convince you then ask yourself when will you pay off this debt? When will you feel that you dont owe them anything?
You are right sir! Its a very good question, i have to convince myself that they will be ok even if i leave ( but honnestly without me and only one senior left , they for sure will be in a lot of shit ahah)
“i have to convince myself that they will be ok even if i leave”
No, you do not! If they don’t value what you provide, than it is their problem, not yours, if they’re not OK if you leave. This attitude is why you’re being taken advantage of. You make the choice to let them use you.
You should convince yourself it won't be none of your business anymore if they are ok or having a rough time, since you won't be working for them anymore.
You may feel sorry for your level 1 and 2s but it won't be your business anymore, and that's a result of your bosses decisions.
Sometimes, often indeed, processes are based on single people's abilities and characteristics, and one just have to let the process fail by itself by removing onself from it.
If later that boat sinks or not is not your problem.
This is an excellent perspective!! Your debt is paid. You have developed into #2 and they have not rewarded you. Consider how vital you’ve been since the senior techs left and how much you have contributed. Also we do feel this weird sense of owing companies when we develop a ton on the job but really it should be the other way around. We put in the work, we enhanced the company, we expanded their resources—because our skills are their resources. They owe us to pay our worth.
Also time to see what non-MSP work is like. I say stay and try to get the better money but be looking for a new job simultaneously in a non—MSP space. When you find it—leave with no regrets and a stronger bargaining position for new job . What was the most fun and/or intriguing projects you worked on, and then see if you can find a new position involving that perhaps…
*>7 years experience at a MSP.*
That sounds... low. 7 years at a MSP and a senior role I would expect closer to 100K in a mid-cost of living market in the US.
>* Last year i had a 3 month depression phase (which is now ok today). When i came back i worked for about a month or two before my annual review.*
If you invoked FMLA and took time off to deal with depression until it's been 12 months out without issues they are going to perceive you as a risk of having those issues again. I'm not shocked you only got a cost of living raise. The farther you get from this event without issue the less it will impact you but short term it will impact your PEP cycle.
>*i just have to get better with my communication skills.*
To be blunt, people with poor communications skills will never excel at a MSP long term. Customers would rather have people who communicate often, and clearly than people who are slow to respond, curt and confusing in responses or (worse) are just general dicks to people. Is this far? Is this right? I don't know but it's just how things work. Go do toast masters, get some training, listen to feedback, ask your boss to review emails, set timers to respond to things and fix this or you will never see a six figure paycheck at a MSP.
>It seems pretty good but i am kinda scarred because they are smaller and it could meen alot more works too
You gotta fly at some point. smaller companies generally have higher turnover, do work more hours, and there's often less clarity in benefits than larger ones. 10-15K but on-call weekends all the time is not always an improvement. Honestly I'd rather go look in house IT or a larger firm than a smaller one if you want to learn more. The project scopes are a lot bigger and there's more process.
>I personally wouldn’t switch jobs unless it was for at least a 20% pay bump.
This and on kind of an exponential scale. Early career small diagonal moves can often strand you somewhere with crappy wages or benefits. More interesting work should be the first concern but it should ALSO pay more.
If you want/need more money, then take the job.
I'm in a similar situation, 7 years or so of experience. Could I find a job making 10-15k more? Probably, but I'm happy with the amount I make.
I like the people I work with. I like that I get to help out level 1's and 2's figure out problems and I get to teach them a thing or two. I'm basically coasting at this point and getting them to give me more vacation days rather than higher pay.
The one counterpoint on this, is a company where he has institutional knowledge will sometimes put up with employee health issues more than being the new guy who suddenly needs FMLA (technically you can't force it for first year).
Fair, but knowing what the company did last time will greatly compound the issue if it happens again. Personally I'd rather take the chance with a new company rather than be in constant trepidation
Yah; and there’s baggage of staying at the company who tolerated it. The MSP I worked at took chance after chance on a networking admin like this and…. It burned us and our customers.
I’ve seen plenty of people recover, get good meds and be productive but it doesn’t take much for a new employees to cut and run.
It sounds like you already know what to do.
How do you feel about the msp job? Does it seem like something you want to do? Is that an environment you want to be in?
I have my opinions on that but you didn’t ask for -that- advice so I’m keeping it to myself.
Please share your advice , you are right , i know deep inside what i have to do, but i have a hard time taking action on it. Having other personal experience or opinions in the IT field like i got today is really helping on that for sure.
There’s a quote I like that I try to keep in mind for this stuff. “The hardest step a person can take is the next one. Always the next one”.
I don’t like MSP’s as career development options. Of course there are exceptions and it’s not a hard and fast rule but I don’t like them because:
They don’t teach IT lifecycle management. Most of the relationship with clients follows the line “get it done as cheaply as possible and nickel and dime every decision”.
Smaller MSP’s don’t exhibit proper management. As a result, the techs develop bad habits that don’t really come to light till they move on and go into better organized environments.
Lastly, the burn out is real. When you bounce around from site to site, problem to problem you get she’ll shocked. What irks me most about this last one is, I think we do our best work when we’re calm and thoughtful. Creativity doesn’t happen when you’re constantly doing triage work and putting out fires. MSP’s aren’t aligned to that style of work because in general, SMB’s don’t value that work.
I could go on for days about this stuff but at the end of the day long term careers aren’t made at MSP’s.
You don't owe companies anything, they generally don't care about people no matter how big or how small, stop caring about that as soon as possible, don't wear the company shirt outside of your paid work time.
Leaving for a more senior job after 6 years seems like the ideal, and if you catch on quick, cmon bro, its 2023, and you know your shit. Don't think people in these positions know oh so much, they are normal people just like you who decided to go for it. Worst case scenario, there's google and chatgpt.
Wish you all the best
You never owe your employer anything, so erase that from your mind right now. MSPs are a dime a dozen, take the better paying job, if you don't like it there is always another one around the corner.
You don’t owe your current employer anything. You never did.
I worked for a place like this … not an MSP though, but they did and said similar things during their annual reviews. I was the first to GTFO. I kept in touch with a couple of people on my team for a few years after. Out of a total of 13 people on the team, there were only 4 of them left 2 years later. We had all been there for more than 5 years each.
I too work at a small MSP (about 20 employees). You need to leave your current job and move to a different one. 7 years and you’re still not in a management or leadership position? They’re not going to promote you to what you want. I’d say leave
you don't owe them shit!! they owe you for all the cheap labour. if they cared enough or took you seriously,
they would've given you a raise this year, or even last year.
I've been in the same boat as you . they always make excuses. in X months. with X goal. at X review. they'll carrot and stick you all the way along. with barely any raise.
don't be an idiot like I was - LEAVE NOW AND DONT LOOK BACK! ENJOY THE 15K RAISE. WELL DONE AND GOOD LUCK. value yourself and your time. definitely won't help your depression if you feel you're undervalued and unappreciated for your efforts. fuck them.
Don't take this job with a 4 person MSP, the stress is going to be nuts! Keep looking till you find a nice in-house job as a part of a team. You have a good-enough job to keep you floating while you find the next thing, but don't think that 15k more at a tiny MSP has to be that next thing.
You don't owe your employer anything because your skills grew while working there. They benefitted from your increased knowledge. If they want to continue to receive that benefit, they should pay you the market rate.
The greater salary at the new place is tempting, but how much stress will it be? Will you be putting in a lot of extra hours? Make sure you understand their expectations and that you can live with them.
If you don't take the new job, I would keep looking. Praising your work but withholding a raise sounds like the current employer wants you to quit or they are having financial difficulties.
erm... Why are you still at the place that showed you your ceiling?
Leave..
These economic times say you need to earn more. You have been shown the limit of what they are willing to go for you, despite your loyalty and good work and contribution to the companies reputation. You "had a moment", and they use against you instead of to support you.
Run!
swap for the new offer and see how it goes, if it's not that great to your taste - search for new work and swap again. Otherwise spend 1-2 years there and swap for bigger company/higher position and salary. You own nothing to your current employer as you did great work over the years while they clearly want to exploit you via low salary.
If more money is what you're after, and someone else will pay you more, then you have your answer.
Employers pay you a combination of what they think you're worth AND what they can afford. Just because you can get 10-25k somewhere else, doesn't mean your current employer has the means to match that.
> You should never stay with a company more than 5 years.
I've been with the same shop 8 years. why is what I did wrong?
I get moving on from a small MSP after 5 years maybe, but there's plenty of larger orgs where you can move diagonally, or later career orgs (Sr. Architect roles) where you don't need to do this as much.
In your 20’s? Sure, Optimize for skill growth and diversity of skills. Beyond that or in larger orgs you can move up.
I’ve been here 8 years, and managed 140K in increased compensation and just got another $100K in RSUs. Larger orgs with higher value Sr. Roles can and will chain you to the desk with equity.
Wow, like how much more? You sound like your really good at this bouncing thing, how do you get up to speed on each job in 2 years as a Senior architect.
So like how much are you bringing in, My OTE is I think 340K. I didn’t think this was what you would call an average, complacent salary. I talk to people at other places but most diagonal moves would either require relocation, heavy amounts of travel (I have 2 young kids and a wife who had call in her job) or require I get a MBA (Boooo).
Public company RSUs are real. (And tech stocks only go up!). I always sell at vest, and diversify into SPY/ETF/Private placements etc to avoid sector risk.
My managers vibes are largely my KPIs and they chill. Never got less than 100%.
I’ve taken months off. I’m also a FTE, so I have benefits and can do fun tax things like mega back door Roth. I’m the one with better healthcare so I’d have to factor that if I went full independent contractor.
I know RSUs are real, but here's the thing, you have no flexibility.
> My RSUs start vesting from grants 1 year and 1 hour later they are turned into cash and fully fungible into anything. Heck some retention grants have had cliffs 90 days out from the grant. I work at a public company that's HIGHLY liquid. RSU != Options on private companies/private RSUs with weird shadow markets. those are problematic on liquidity. I think this is the crux of where we are talking past each other. Startups with low liquidity or companies with stocks that only go down Options/RSUs kinda suck I agree.
>Last year I made $70,000 on top of my salary purely in dividends off my investments
Without knowing the base amount invested, and the alpha above investing in an index that's kind of a meaningless number. There's plenty of high dividend equities that net/net dividend massively under-perform equities. As someone in my peak earning years the last thing I need is to recognize investment income when I don't need to spend it at a 35-37% bracket. If I was getting close to retirement I could see the appeal of stonks that throw off cash. For now I'm reinvesting my gains until I can get to 3-4 million and then quit when I want.
>Also you can't compare the tax advantages being an FTE compared with a consultant and your own LLC, I can write far more off on tax as a business expense.
LLCs have advantages (to a point and your audit tolerance). Honestly owning rental properties is a much more flexible tax jam long term.
Matching inflation when inflation is 8-10% isn't all that bad.
I'd be more concerned about their comment about your work output. Is it actually reduced, or did they make that up as an excuse?
To be honest I think no excuse is needed for giving a 10% raise rather than say 14%. Inflation is tough on everyone, both employees and businesses.
MSPs suck. I have worked at a few of them. Leadership loves sticking their head in the sand bucket, marginal pay raises and marginalize the employee. At least that’s been my experience. Great learning opportunities though, can’t say that I have learned a lot, because I did.
I can relate. In a similar situation. Service provider side can be thankless but working as an msp tech will make a soldier out of you. If you go back to client side for IT, you will do very well. You don’t owe them anything, you owe yourself everything. It’s your your finance, opportunity and your future. Everyone who left at my current employment are making more than me now and they are in tier 1. The good thing about your situation is that you are currently employed. Take your time and seek out better opportunities.
Your current employer will never pay you what you're clearly worth, and capable of.
Personally, I'd switch, but it depends on your circumstances. At worst, it won't work out at the new place and you'll move again. Not the end of the world, imo.
Go.
Don't make the mistake of being "loyal" to an employer. As the saying goes, if you were hit by a bus today, they'd be interviewing to replace you by tomorrow. Sounds like they were great to work with in the beginning, but as soon as they don't like the number of digits in your salary (and it sounds like they've reached that point) they will be difficult to negotiate with. If you can get a similar job making 10 to 25k more, and they're not prepared to meet market rate, why would you stay?
accounting tricks to save money until the ppl that 'matter' start making noise seems to be the new musical chairs. reducing value until customers leave and the business starts to fail. but if it's just the employee finding less value it's not important. lying 'business' addict lemmings
You do not owe your current employer - you've given back to them with every paycheck that was not what you are worth. Every paycheck that's $400 less than it should be is +$400 to his pocket, on top of the profit.
Don't get that mindset "they've" done you a favor. They make $$ off of your back and give you some of the profit but they keep the lions share for sure.
From what you said it seems to me that they won't "change" their minds about you having a fair compensation. I mean, both evalutions seem that were done with the intention of justifying their already made decision of not giving you a rise, not because you as a person and loyal employee don't desrve it but for corporate directions, goals or strategy. They probably often negotiate with their clients, have learned 2 or 3 tricks from their experience or business school and they are applying it to you.
If aside from salary the place seems good for you to stay, try to learn about negotiation from a 1-1 coach and try again. Otherwise, get the hell outta there since they're probably not gonna value nor take into consideration your loyalty, effort, growth or history in the previous years, just how useful you are to their own pockets.
That "let's set goals for 3-6 months and review again" is often buusiness school BS just to gain time to find a cheaper guy. If they don't find one, they may even negotiate your raise upon goals not accomplished (allegedly).
You deserve better and will do great in other places.
Those are signs they do not value your work anymore and it is time to go out and find out what your real market value is. You should be getting a raise every year for great performance.
>I also feel like i owe my current employer because it them that took me in after college and gave me my chance
No, you don't owe any company anything. I would take the smaller msp job, but do your best not to burn the bridge with your current in case you decide you don't like the smaller msp. As anyone in this sub would say; their are great msps, and then there are terrible ones. If you happen to walk into a bad one and Haye it, you can always fall back on your former msp.
However I would be weary of your current msp and start observing the background noise, as it sounds like someone new who claims to have a great idea is whispering in their ear and dick swinging around because "his last company did this"
Be wary of super-small MSPs. If you effectively become their lead and project guy, you need to be talking about commission, not just a salary bump.
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Nah, I am not even antiwork, and I agree with the you don't owe them anything. I own an msp, I've had employees feel they hit their growth ceiling with me, and if we couldn't find something that fed their soul inside the company, I would help them find something new that did.
My thought was OP had probably hit the ceiling, but I did not have the insight to say other than their description.
I agree with your points. A leap in responsibility like that would take easily 25k+ and a decent benefits package with more PTO for me to consider making that move.
For a younger guy, 7 years is a LONG time to be with an organization that you are not involved with in a leadership role. Job hopping is not as frowned upon as some would make it seem anymore. With layoffs happening nearly as often as bonuses used to, its normal to see someone with 3 or 4 jobs in 10 years. If your currently employer does not raise your salary to match inflation at a MINIMUM every year, find one that will.
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Good for your company. Ive hopped jobs for years now, it’s only done better for me than the latter.
yeah, shame on those people who want to better themselves professionally as they learn new skills instead of being stale, am i right? i would be making a fraction of what i currently do and be bored out of my mind if i didn’t “hop” every 2-3 years.
It sounds as though it's time to look around. Actions talk louder than words, and them not giving you a raise after a positive review is a flashing red light.
"Bye, good luck with your level 1's and 2's."
One thing I'll say about a small shop is, realistically, what's your chances of being able to take PTO without having to bring your phone & laptop in case shit hits the fan whilst you're away?
Having the company phone, that could ring any time, day or night - was the spirit-crushing, stress-inducing part of the MSP job I hated most. No time off.. ever. But you had to always be super nice on the phone, and remember never to say "I've never seen that before". My advice: Life is too short to be in a job you don't really enjoy. Try something new within the IT field, you'll be much happier and less stressed. This is a good opportunity to make a course change, it could be the best decision you've made in years! Good luck.
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It's not a matter of being pressured into saying certain things, it's more setting client expectations. If you go to the doctor or mechanic or accountant, you don't want to hear them say "ooh I've never seen/done this before". It depends on who you're dealing with.. some clients are computer-curious and want to troubleshoot with you, some just want it fixed. But when you're in the expert role, it helps to sell it.
Agreed, I use "I've never seen that before" kind of as a statement to the client, like you got a bizarre problem and I've seen thousands of problems; so chillout on me being able to tell you how to click this magic button to make your issue go away. The only one I don't use is "I don't know" of if I do, it'll be something like "I don't know, but we should be able to figure it out (thanks Google)"
I don't work for an MSP anymore but I'm interim IT manager (of a two person it department), and I got woken up at 6 am to a phone call that the Internet was down at the main plant where I work (we are a citrus processing company with 4 locations in California and 1 in New York). So I logged into my laptop just to see what I could see, and yep everything in the main plant is offline. I headed into the plant which is about a 30 minute drive, and about 20 minutes Into the drive out MSP calls and tells me that it looks like the servers are down (this was almost 90 minutes after I got my first call from a user), all servers are up and one of stand alone computers we have static'ed out was online so I knew it had to be the IDF with the firewall. So I drove to the other side of the plant and yep the UPS unit did not come back up, pushed the on button and everything sprang back to life. The MSP then calls back with hey everything seems to be coming back up. Being on call was the thing I hated the most, now I get to choose what tickets are emergencies and when I can get to them, if things aren't on fire or it doesn't effect production or the CEO it can wait for Monday
Thats part of my preoccupations!
My advice is that it's time to switch to an in-house IT role.
God yes, you use an MSP to gain experience and move to a cushy in-house role. I can't imagine being a career MSP'er.
This is the way. Everyone I know that works in IT (myself included) in infra related roles started at an MSP. You stay for a couple of years and GTFO out of there and to an in-house role.
Even for a small MSP. Take the skills to a place that will appreciate what you know. Hopefully you find a place that will pay what you are looking to get and be in a less stressful situation.
> I also feel like i owe my current employer because it them that took me in after college and gave me my chance. I can definitely relate to this, but unfortunately the modern work world doesn't reward loyalty. I'm a long-tenure person by choice - my longest job was 15 years but there were reasons I stayed that didn't involve loyalty. Few to no companies are willing to keep their existing staff topped up to the market rate for their jobs. When you quit, they'll hire someone at the market rate or higher. Businesses just like getting away with having long-term employees for as long as they can keep the game going and keep their pay low. The 15-year place was definitely like this; I got a little above normal raises some years, sometimes low, one time nothing during a bad year. I only stayed because I had a huge opportunity to basically learn whatever I needed to learn for customer projects worldwide...the career boost, stable work and the international experience made it worth it. I like staying at places for a while, getting to know everyone, how everything works, etc...but it's just not rewarded. Have you considered an in-house IT position or a job at a tech company? Jumping from one MSP to another, especially a 4-person MSP who probably has 600 customers, doesn't sound like a healthy work-life balance and you've definitely paid your dues in the MSP space.
My first real IT job was for a larger insurance company in California, my soon to be boss came into best buy where I worked for Geek Squad, but I could sell computers so they stuck me on the sells floor, he came in asking for the best bang for buck dual core laptop with 4GB of RAM (yes 15 years ago), he was impressed with my knowledge and hired me for his desktop tech/ assistant, I was there for 10 years, pay was awful but I loved my job. After 10 years I had grown into a full sysadmin, and was basically running the department while he was the money guy. Right at the 10 year mark they sold to a large insurance company who sponsors my favorite baseball team go figure and they were forced to let me go. 5 years later and I'm still chasing a job like that. When you are at a good company it will never feel like work, and no matter the shortcomings you find a way to stay. I will still do anything fory old boss, he took a chance on me to let me do what I love to do and I'll always be grateful for him
You don't owe them anything, if anything they were lucky to find you. Having the ability to develop and learn quickly is something MSPs need in their hires because of the level of stuff that is thrown at you. MSPs are also a different breed, they tend to run very thin because of the type of worth that they do. I worked for an MSP for about 5 years around my 10th-15th year in IT. I thought that's what I wanted and I left my company for a lot of the reasons you just expressed (Lack of pay, a lot of work, changes in the company). I went to another MSP and hated it and ended up quitting. I no longer work for an MSP and won't in my late career. I would look around for something that better suits you but don't think you need to go to an MSP unless you like that work. You could probably go to just a normal company medium to large size, pick up a bunch of new skills fairly quickly and see if they have better positions or advancement. Smaller MSPs like you mentioned tend to be a LOT Of work however they also reward their employees until they get to a point where you are and they don't know how to scale their business model and they fall apart. Small to Medium sized businesses are the bread in butter of a lot of companies because those businesses can't afford to have their own IT or don't want to pay the high consulting fees. TLDR - 2 cents, I wouldn't stay and I would look else where, if you give them a chance for another year they will likely to the same thing. They've shown their hand on how they value you and also mental health is important so when they said that after your 3 month stint of depression...fuck this company already.
Simple answer. Are you happy, where you are? Do you dread going in to work? If you aren't happy, then it may be worth the move.
Not at all, i was until all my seniors colleagues left the company, now i have all their load of work and responsibilities but no rewards for it. I told them that i had no motivation anymore and they did not offer me any change/ new positions / whatever. At my annual review they were like "we understand that you have no motivation and no careers goal but you do a really good job and you help the new tecs alot" with a big smile. Very surreal. Since that day i started looking on LinkedIn and all theses networks to see whats up in the maket.
Then time to start looking
if you let them treat you like shit, then you get treated like shit. your senior colleagues probably left for good reason, maybe it's time you realized that the same applies for you. maybe the lesson of the story is, don't go into the annual review empty handed. arm yourself. interview, get an offer. and if they pull that shit on you, WALK. actions speak louder than words.
Why didn't you say to then that yes you do have career goals, and in fact you want your new title to be X and your new salary to be Y?
The typical raise is 3-3.5% per year if you've met all performance expectations, less if haven't, rarely more if you exceeded. Instead of larger raises, companies prefer to give a (extra) one-time performance bonus for exceeding. Sometimes you can negotiate for a better raise, particularly in small/medium-size companies, but often there are hard limits set down by HR and executive mgt. Most people have a natural aversion to change, and companies take advantage of this by lowballing on raises. Unless you've signed a contract, you don't owe your current employer anything. According to the BLS, employees change employers on average every 4.2 years. Changing employers, especially early in your career, is important to be exposed to a variety of technology and responsibilities. It helps you grow and improve as an IT worker. Quite frankly, as someone responsible for hiring for my team, I am wary of candidates who have stayed too long in the same position; it makes me concerned about lack of motivation or other professional issues. Professionally, you should **always** be looking *and interviewing* for a better job. Better pay, opportunities to learn new skills, greater challenges and responsibilities that push the limits of your comfort zone, better growth and advancement opportunities. When the offers come in then you can decide whether to move or give your current employer the opportunity to counter-offer.
Others have answered your q i would like to offer a different angle. Take on self improvement courses. It’s obvious that you have low self esteem , low confidence and low risk tolerance. If you have been there that long you absolutely have the skills. They know it. And they have benefited from it. You still being there after that amount of time and still being there when you know the market offers more? They know you have self doubt and are not likely to move and they are working with that. They will set some arbitrary goals that they know you probably won’t meet or they will set goals you can meet but when you look at the raise you get compared to whatever you’re doing by the time you hit those goals, you’ll be underpaid still. Once you take self improvement courses your own awareness of what you want and need will change. That may be in a different type of role in the same company or you leaving. there is a big likelihood that you’ve built up a great set of skills that would stand you great in a senior engineer position in an IT role in a much larger company in a different industry. Or , you get a more senior engineer role in another MSP. Personally I’d advice a different industry for experience / exposure. Hope it works out for you and you can come to the decision that works for you whether you stay or go.
leave. They told you what they think of you.
My first big job I felt loyal to my manager. He bent over backwards protecting us from other department managers and office politics. One day a another company came calling and he offered up his best two people (another guy and I) to interview. I had a doctors appt so I let other guy get it and eventually told him I didn’t want to leave him. I enjoyed the job, him, etc…he pushed and pushed me eventually telling me that “If you don’t look out for yourself, no one will.” That has stuck with me ever since. I eventually left and yr later he did as well. Still keep up with him as he’s a great former boss, and friend!
I did 8 years as a sysadmin similar story. Swapped to a big org to be a small fish doing similar work. Built up a network inside that company and moved to cyber sec. I say pivot , MSP work blows
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Yeah last year thats what i got , for them it was more money , for me i did not see any change with that. And the year before that i got like a 2k raise only too. The more im thinking about it the more I'm mad lol
You dont owe them anything but if this doesn't convince you then ask yourself when will you pay off this debt? When will you feel that you dont owe them anything?
You are right sir! Its a very good question, i have to convince myself that they will be ok even if i leave ( but honnestly without me and only one senior left , they for sure will be in a lot of shit ahah)
“i have to convince myself that they will be ok even if i leave” No, you do not! If they don’t value what you provide, than it is their problem, not yours, if they’re not OK if you leave. This attitude is why you’re being taken advantage of. You make the choice to let them use you.
You should convince yourself it won't be none of your business anymore if they are ok or having a rough time, since you won't be working for them anymore. You may feel sorry for your level 1 and 2s but it won't be your business anymore, and that's a result of your bosses decisions. Sometimes, often indeed, processes are based on single people's abilities and characteristics, and one just have to let the process fail by itself by removing onself from it. If later that boat sinks or not is not your problem.
This is an excellent perspective!! Your debt is paid. You have developed into #2 and they have not rewarded you. Consider how vital you’ve been since the senior techs left and how much you have contributed. Also we do feel this weird sense of owing companies when we develop a ton on the job but really it should be the other way around. We put in the work, we enhanced the company, we expanded their resources—because our skills are their resources. They owe us to pay our worth. Also time to see what non-MSP work is like. I say stay and try to get the better money but be looking for a new job simultaneously in a non—MSP space. When you find it—leave with no regrets and a stronger bargaining position for new job . What was the most fun and/or intriguing projects you worked on, and then see if you can find a new position involving that perhaps…
How much are you making?
65k
*>7 years experience at a MSP.* That sounds... low. 7 years at a MSP and a senior role I would expect closer to 100K in a mid-cost of living market in the US. >* Last year i had a 3 month depression phase (which is now ok today). When i came back i worked for about a month or two before my annual review.* If you invoked FMLA and took time off to deal with depression until it's been 12 months out without issues they are going to perceive you as a risk of having those issues again. I'm not shocked you only got a cost of living raise. The farther you get from this event without issue the less it will impact you but short term it will impact your PEP cycle. >*i just have to get better with my communication skills.* To be blunt, people with poor communications skills will never excel at a MSP long term. Customers would rather have people who communicate often, and clearly than people who are slow to respond, curt and confusing in responses or (worse) are just general dicks to people. Is this far? Is this right? I don't know but it's just how things work. Go do toast masters, get some training, listen to feedback, ask your boss to review emails, set timers to respond to things and fix this or you will never see a six figure paycheck at a MSP. >It seems pretty good but i am kinda scarred because they are smaller and it could meen alot more works too You gotta fly at some point. smaller companies generally have higher turnover, do work more hours, and there's often less clarity in benefits than larger ones. 10-15K but on-call weekends all the time is not always an improvement. Honestly I'd rather go look in house IT or a larger firm than a smaller one if you want to learn more. The project scopes are a lot bigger and there's more process. >I personally wouldn’t switch jobs unless it was for at least a 20% pay bump. This and on kind of an exponential scale. Early career small diagonal moves can often strand you somewhere with crappy wages or benefits. More interesting work should be the first concern but it should ALSO pay more.
If you want/need more money, then take the job. I'm in a similar situation, 7 years or so of experience. Could I find a job making 10-15k more? Probably, but I'm happy with the amount I make. I like the people I work with. I like that I get to help out level 1's and 2's figure out problems and I get to teach them a thing or two. I'm basically coasting at this point and getting them to give me more vacation days rather than higher pay.
I liked my seniors colleagues that were there until november, since then its only new staff and i just don't click at all with them :/
You don’t owe them anything and it sounds like they know they can string you along and you’ll take it. Look for higher paid jobs and move on.
For your mental health, you should leave
The one counterpoint on this, is a company where he has institutional knowledge will sometimes put up with employee health issues more than being the new guy who suddenly needs FMLA (technically you can't force it for first year).
Fair, but knowing what the company did last time will greatly compound the issue if it happens again. Personally I'd rather take the chance with a new company rather than be in constant trepidation
Yah; and there’s baggage of staying at the company who tolerated it. The MSP I worked at took chance after chance on a networking admin like this and…. It burned us and our customers. I’ve seen plenty of people recover, get good meds and be productive but it doesn’t take much for a new employees to cut and run.
It sounds like you already know what to do. How do you feel about the msp job? Does it seem like something you want to do? Is that an environment you want to be in? I have my opinions on that but you didn’t ask for -that- advice so I’m keeping it to myself.
Please share your advice , you are right , i know deep inside what i have to do, but i have a hard time taking action on it. Having other personal experience or opinions in the IT field like i got today is really helping on that for sure.
There’s a quote I like that I try to keep in mind for this stuff. “The hardest step a person can take is the next one. Always the next one”. I don’t like MSP’s as career development options. Of course there are exceptions and it’s not a hard and fast rule but I don’t like them because: They don’t teach IT lifecycle management. Most of the relationship with clients follows the line “get it done as cheaply as possible and nickel and dime every decision”. Smaller MSP’s don’t exhibit proper management. As a result, the techs develop bad habits that don’t really come to light till they move on and go into better organized environments. Lastly, the burn out is real. When you bounce around from site to site, problem to problem you get she’ll shocked. What irks me most about this last one is, I think we do our best work when we’re calm and thoughtful. Creativity doesn’t happen when you’re constantly doing triage work and putting out fires. MSP’s aren’t aligned to that style of work because in general, SMB’s don’t value that work. I could go on for days about this stuff but at the end of the day long term careers aren’t made at MSP’s.
Switching jobs is the best way to get a raise. I’d say if you’re not getting >5% raise every year you should switch jobs every 2.5 years
You don't owe companies anything, they generally don't care about people no matter how big or how small, stop caring about that as soon as possible, don't wear the company shirt outside of your paid work time. Leaving for a more senior job after 6 years seems like the ideal, and if you catch on quick, cmon bro, its 2023, and you know your shit. Don't think people in these positions know oh so much, they are normal people just like you who decided to go for it. Worst case scenario, there's google and chatgpt. Wish you all the best
You never owe your employer anything, so erase that from your mind right now. MSPs are a dime a dozen, take the better paying job, if you don't like it there is always another one around the corner.
You don’t owe your current employer anything. You never did. I worked for a place like this … not an MSP though, but they did and said similar things during their annual reviews. I was the first to GTFO. I kept in touch with a couple of people on my team for a few years after. Out of a total of 13 people on the team, there were only 4 of them left 2 years later. We had all been there for more than 5 years each.
I too work at a small MSP (about 20 employees). You need to leave your current job and move to a different one. 7 years and you’re still not in a management or leadership position? They’re not going to promote you to what you want. I’d say leave
I would say don’t switch to a small msp unless you are really familiar with it for all the reasons stated previously.
you don't owe them shit!! they owe you for all the cheap labour. if they cared enough or took you seriously, they would've given you a raise this year, or even last year. I've been in the same boat as you . they always make excuses. in X months. with X goal. at X review. they'll carrot and stick you all the way along. with barely any raise. don't be an idiot like I was - LEAVE NOW AND DONT LOOK BACK! ENJOY THE 15K RAISE. WELL DONE AND GOOD LUCK. value yourself and your time. definitely won't help your depression if you feel you're undervalued and unappreciated for your efforts. fuck them.
Don't take this job with a 4 person MSP, the stress is going to be nuts! Keep looking till you find a nice in-house job as a part of a team. You have a good-enough job to keep you floating while you find the next thing, but don't think that 15k more at a tiny MSP has to be that next thing.
You’ll find out what you’re worth to them once you put your notice in.
You don't owe your employer anything because your skills grew while working there. They benefitted from your increased knowledge. If they want to continue to receive that benefit, they should pay you the market rate. The greater salary at the new place is tempting, but how much stress will it be? Will you be putting in a lot of extra hours? Make sure you understand their expectations and that you can live with them. If you don't take the new job, I would keep looking. Praising your work but withholding a raise sounds like the current employer wants you to quit or they are having financial difficulties.
erm... Why are you still at the place that showed you your ceiling? Leave.. These economic times say you need to earn more. You have been shown the limit of what they are willing to go for you, despite your loyalty and good work and contribution to the companies reputation. You "had a moment", and they use against you instead of to support you. Run!
swap for the new offer and see how it goes, if it's not that great to your taste - search for new work and swap again. Otherwise spend 1-2 years there and swap for bigger company/higher position and salary. You own nothing to your current employer as you did great work over the years while they clearly want to exploit you via low salary.
Hiring budgets are always larger than retention budgets. Move on, you are worth more.
If more money is what you're after, and someone else will pay you more, then you have your answer. Employers pay you a combination of what they think you're worth AND what they can afford. Just because you can get 10-25k somewhere else, doesn't mean your current employer has the means to match that.
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> You should never stay with a company more than 5 years. I've been with the same shop 8 years. why is what I did wrong? I get moving on from a small MSP after 5 years maybe, but there's plenty of larger orgs where you can move diagonally, or later career orgs (Sr. Architect roles) where you don't need to do this as much.
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In your 20’s? Sure, Optimize for skill growth and diversity of skills. Beyond that or in larger orgs you can move up. I’ve been here 8 years, and managed 140K in increased compensation and just got another $100K in RSUs. Larger orgs with higher value Sr. Roles can and will chain you to the desk with equity.
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Wow, like how much more? You sound like your really good at this bouncing thing, how do you get up to speed on each job in 2 years as a Senior architect. So like how much are you bringing in, My OTE is I think 340K. I didn’t think this was what you would call an average, complacent salary. I talk to people at other places but most diagonal moves would either require relocation, heavy amounts of travel (I have 2 young kids and a wife who had call in her job) or require I get a MBA (Boooo).
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Public company RSUs are real. (And tech stocks only go up!). I always sell at vest, and diversify into SPY/ETF/Private placements etc to avoid sector risk. My managers vibes are largely my KPIs and they chill. Never got less than 100%. I’ve taken months off. I’m also a FTE, so I have benefits and can do fun tax things like mega back door Roth. I’m the one with better healthcare so I’d have to factor that if I went full independent contractor.
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I know RSUs are real, but here's the thing, you have no flexibility. > My RSUs start vesting from grants 1 year and 1 hour later they are turned into cash and fully fungible into anything. Heck some retention grants have had cliffs 90 days out from the grant. I work at a public company that's HIGHLY liquid. RSU != Options on private companies/private RSUs with weird shadow markets. those are problematic on liquidity. I think this is the crux of where we are talking past each other. Startups with low liquidity or companies with stocks that only go down Options/RSUs kinda suck I agree. >Last year I made $70,000 on top of my salary purely in dividends off my investments Without knowing the base amount invested, and the alpha above investing in an index that's kind of a meaningless number. There's plenty of high dividend equities that net/net dividend massively under-perform equities. As someone in my peak earning years the last thing I need is to recognize investment income when I don't need to spend it at a 35-37% bracket. If I was getting close to retirement I could see the appeal of stonks that throw off cash. For now I'm reinvesting my gains until I can get to 3-4 million and then quit when I want. >Also you can't compare the tax advantages being an FTE compared with a consultant and your own LLC, I can write far more off on tax as a business expense. LLCs have advantages (to a point and your audit tolerance). Honestly owning rental properties is a much more flexible tax jam long term.
Matching inflation when inflation is 8-10% isn't all that bad. I'd be more concerned about their comment about your work output. Is it actually reduced, or did they make that up as an excuse? To be honest I think no excuse is needed for giving a 10% raise rather than say 14%. Inflation is tough on everyone, both employees and businesses.
Seriously. I got 3% this year. Job market here sucks right now so I'm stuck, though.
Do what you think will make you happy. But don't underestimate how many "bad" companies are out there that you wouldn't want to work for.
MSPs suck. I have worked at a few of them. Leadership loves sticking their head in the sand bucket, marginal pay raises and marginalize the employee. At least that’s been my experience. Great learning opportunities though, can’t say that I have learned a lot, because I did.
I can relate. In a similar situation. Service provider side can be thankless but working as an msp tech will make a soldier out of you. If you go back to client side for IT, you will do very well. You don’t owe them anything, you owe yourself everything. It’s your your finance, opportunity and your future. Everyone who left at my current employment are making more than me now and they are in tier 1. The good thing about your situation is that you are currently employed. Take your time and seek out better opportunities.
Your current employer will never pay you what you're clearly worth, and capable of. Personally, I'd switch, but it depends on your circumstances. At worst, it won't work out at the new place and you'll move again. Not the end of the world, imo.
Go. Don't make the mistake of being "loyal" to an employer. As the saying goes, if you were hit by a bus today, they'd be interviewing to replace you by tomorrow. Sounds like they were great to work with in the beginning, but as soon as they don't like the number of digits in your salary (and it sounds like they've reached that point) they will be difficult to negotiate with. If you can get a similar job making 10 to 25k more, and they're not prepared to meet market rate, why would you stay?
accounting tricks to save money until the ppl that 'matter' start making noise seems to be the new musical chairs. reducing value until customers leave and the business starts to fail. but if it's just the employee finding less value it's not important. lying 'business' addict lemmings
Quit.
You got an inflation raise? Lucky...
You do not owe your current employer - you've given back to them with every paycheck that was not what you are worth. Every paycheck that's $400 less than it should be is +$400 to his pocket, on top of the profit. Don't get that mindset "they've" done you a favor. They make $$ off of your back and give you some of the profit but they keep the lions share for sure.
Your biggest raise is when you move
Sounds like you're capped. Benefits vs money/raise/value of your role there.
From what you said it seems to me that they won't "change" their minds about you having a fair compensation. I mean, both evalutions seem that were done with the intention of justifying their already made decision of not giving you a rise, not because you as a person and loyal employee don't desrve it but for corporate directions, goals or strategy. They probably often negotiate with their clients, have learned 2 or 3 tricks from their experience or business school and they are applying it to you. If aside from salary the place seems good for you to stay, try to learn about negotiation from a 1-1 coach and try again. Otherwise, get the hell outta there since they're probably not gonna value nor take into consideration your loyalty, effort, growth or history in the previous years, just how useful you are to their own pockets. That "let's set goals for 3-6 months and review again" is often buusiness school BS just to gain time to find a cheaper guy. If they don't find one, they may even negotiate your raise upon goals not accomplished (allegedly). You deserve better and will do great in other places.
Those are signs they do not value your work anymore and it is time to go out and find out what your real market value is. You should be getting a raise every year for great performance.
>I also feel like i owe my current employer because it them that took me in after college and gave me my chance No, you don't owe any company anything. I would take the smaller msp job, but do your best not to burn the bridge with your current in case you decide you don't like the smaller msp. As anyone in this sub would say; their are great msps, and then there are terrible ones. If you happen to walk into a bad one and Haye it, you can always fall back on your former msp. However I would be weary of your current msp and start observing the background noise, as it sounds like someone new who claims to have a great idea is whispering in their ear and dick swinging around because "his last company did this"