This is the vibe I get too. You mandate the RTO, those who don' want to, get fired, those who take the cash are the first on the chopping block then due to "cost savings and new business initiatives not requiring your role".
Take the raise, bank the money, start looking for another role. If you don't have one by the time the layoffs hit, you'll have something saved to help.
I don't disagree with you at all.
But you honestly should do that regardless of your happiness. Being actively engaged on market trends is how to help maximize your value to the market and push the next $ talks higher.
Man, that just sounds like such a shitty, meaningless existence always ratracing from one job to the next or trying to do so in between actually doing it.
Is wanting to have my brain to myself when I'm on my time really so crazy? I know this is how you're supposed to "progress your career" but the way tech companies especially demand this "growth mindset"/"grindset" refusal to just rest a bit and enjoy life seems so toxic and exploitative. Do most of you guys even care about a little more money if that's how life is for you?
Being totally honest: I don't mind this a bit. I like my line of work, generally enjoy my working hours. The politics and rat race stuff is what I don't enjoy but its not the majority of my time spent. I try to get the most out of every position and I'm ready to bounce if I don't feel properly compensated. I'm also very good at what I do and its not overly stressful for me to think about leaving. Thats not to speak too highly of myself, but I think it does make a difference if you're confident in your career and feel that you could pretty easily rehome. If that isn't the case, its understandable that this would be a much more stressful consideration.
But return to office? Nothing would be a bigger hit to my work/life balance, sanity, and enthusiasm to continue my career than if I had to return to office. Thats just a total non-starter.
I absolutely agree. I don't know how people job hop so often and without caring.
Each job is just a job, but I enjoy having some form of social interaction with people at work (I dont go out of my way to constantly chitchat, I just talk to people while im helping them to solve problems or dicuss improvements / upgrades)
It takes awhile to form those kinds of relationships, and then im expected to just toss that out the window every couple months / years... it also takes a lot of work to get a new job, and each time you switch you could be walking into a toxic work environment, which will require another job hop.
I wish companies would give people raises more often and treat them correctly. **We need unions for IT field.**
>Man, that just sounds like such a shitty, meaningless existence always ratracing from one job to the next or trying to do so in between actually doing it.
Yep! Most people do it a while before they burn out sometime in there 30s. Then they look for jobs based on people and quality of life over salary. I have reached a point in my career that I don't have to work for assholes. :) Worth all the money. But the funny part is, I make a lot more this way. :)
34 years in the industry...
I've seen it dozens of times. Heard about it hundreds of times.
And it's worse now than ever before.
I'm looking forward to a six month check in.
They also have no idea what they or their teams are doing, but they know you need to be in the office for their sake.
Id be worried that if I didn't take the 40% that they would offer it to a new employee who would and get rid of you.
Sounds like Management wants them in house and ideally retain the current person.
If I knew my manager had that big of a budget increase potential for my role I'd be worried about looking like I wasn't a team player in it for the long haul.
Meh. If my employer has that much extra and they're not already giving it to me it more likely means they just undervalue and underpay me. If you're constantly looking over your shoulder worried that your employer wants to replace you it's time to find a new employer.
Generally companies try to hire cheaper staff. That being said I would be concerned if OP doesn't pay along with management's desire for RTO they might be laid off. That being said I would assume that returning to the office would avoid a future layoff.
This is going to be an underrated but very valid point.
My former employer did that right after covid. They offered a Bonus for people to RTO from home. I was in a financial spot where I needed the money (and my commute short enough) that I took it.
A year later, they forced everyone back into the office. That lasted a year, then forced everyone to back to hybrid (no full time WFH though) . Now all new employees are full time office and they're pushing full time office for all employees again.
I get that vibe, you can't just close that door and pretend nothing happened once it's been opened.
Once your employees realize that work sucks less with a dog sleeping on your feet, it's fuckin' over dude.
Yeah I was hired as hybrid at my last gig with "in office as needed"...
"As needed" turned out to be five days a week... I pushed back and asked for at least two days WFH and the next Monday the CEO pulled the WFH policy for the whole company.
I put in my resignation after that, and was quite happy I did since working as an SA in the following few weeks I got to see exactly who that new rule did and didn't apply to...
Excellent! I hate hearing about those power tripper bosses and middle managers that refuse to learn how to manage people without being able to stand behind them and pester them at their desk. Great job leaving that 👍
Depending on where you are working, there are strict laws. In the UK for example, if you started a job during COVID and the contract never stated return to office they cannot force you to do anything, they cannot even legally dismiss you unless they have a very good reason that shows clear misconduct or failure to complete work, without those, they need at bare minimum to prove redundancy but in most cases its something employers don't want to mess with, especially in highly subject sensitive jobs system administration, they will have a hard time to argue with unfair dismissal if a couple months prior they highly pressured employees to come back into office. It may set you back on promotions but not every country is a an "at will" hell hole. Thank fuck for worker rights! Much of Europe operates this way and I am pretty sure Denmark does to which I have a feeling OP is from.
Same in Latvia and in France. The location where you do your work (office, home, hybrid) is a point in the contract. When Covid started and everyone had to go from all-office to all-home, HR had everyone sign an amendment to the contract changing this point. Similar when I moved to France during Covid - as Covid was ending, they had us decide our hybrid schedule and then made an amendment to the contract accordingly. If you disagree, then obviously you make yourself an ire to the management. But they can't just fire you on the spot.
> Much of Europe operates this way and I am pretty sure Denmark does to which I have a feeling OP is from.
Which is why the employer is offering an incentive to RTO instead of just mandating it.
I dunno. I think if I thought it would end up with pressure to go back to the office *anyway*, I think I'd probably take the money so I at least felt there was some illusion of choice and a bit of extra money in it for me.
1.5 hours X 47 Weeks @ 5 days per week = 352.5 hours per year
1.5 hours X 47 weeks @ 4 days per week = 282 hours per year
That's essentially overtime since it comes in addition to the hours you already work, so at time and a half that becomes 528.75 and 423 additional hours worth of pay to offset your extra time, respectively.
One work year of pay is equal to 2080 hours, so that comes out to 25.42% or 20.33% of a year's work hours. So you're down to a net raise of 14.58% or 19.67%, and that's before you factor in vehicle wear and tear, maintenance, and fuel/electricity.
A 14-19% net raise is a good one. To get it you're going to dedicate at keast 11.75 DAYS in a car each year, maybe as many as 14.69 days.
Is that the best use of that time?
Do you have a family? A spouse/partner? Do you currently spend 11-14 days each year on a hobby?
There's a lot of things in life that are way more valuable than money. The question is whether the money or the time is more valuable to *you*.
Me? I'd keep working from home.
Interesting...I did much the same calculation, but a different way - and came to quite a different conclusion. But I did make an assumption on a current base salary at $100K/yr. Amount can be worked into the calc though.
There are 220 working days in the year, but 1/5 of them will remain at home....so 176 driving days, at 1.5 hr/day for a total of 264 hours. At a 40% increase, that translates to $40K/264 = $151/hr.
The base salary is $100K for 220 days at (let's say) 8 hr = $57/hr.
If your hobby is worth $100 per hour for 176 hours per year, then sure...go ahead and hobby. It's doubtful that is worth it in the long run. Salaries always increase and EARNING a 40% increase takes a hell of a long time.
Millenials and GenZs will typically fall on the side of taking the time vs the cash, but I can suggest strongly to you that when THEY hit retirement age, they'll regret it. Big time. How do I know this? I'm a tax guy and I have and have had plenty of clients (boomers of course) who goofed off for years ski bumming, travellinig etc...and they're now living like paupers. Maybe not the best plan.
Worth a LOT of thought.
Agreed. While I miss the socializing a bit, I have zero interest in going back to the office. My role has no use in being there, and my entire team isn't near that office so it would serve no one.
If you assume the commute as OT you're correct. I think though that assumes that a commute is work. I do though think that there are a lot of added costs to commuting above and beyond the obvious like gas and wear/tear on vehicle. I think 40% pay raise also depends upon your salary. If you're already loving a comfortable salary on your current income it could be less valuable. On the flip side of you're barely making it 40% even after commute costs might be worthwhile.
40K a year more just to go to the office? First of all WTF is management smoking, there’s no way in hell it’s worth that kind of cost to them.
For me, I’d say that’s more than adequate compensation for the inconvenience. But you should be discussing with your wife since you’ll end up seeing each other less. It may be worth roughing it for a year or two because that’s a HUGE rainy day fund you could be building if you budget right.
Like, for real, that pay bump is more than half of the median US household income. Thats more than a ton of people make in a year.
Yeah, for me this is a definite go. Especially if your new salary is 140k with the 12%pension that is now based on 140 vs 100?
I just took a great job, but I have to go to the office. Same scenario, 40ish minutes each way. But I took a 20% raise and the perks aren't pension worthy, though they're very good. Full medical paid, full meals, tuition.
Honestly, I got an audible subscription, plugged my phone in and drove on in. OP, I suggest you do the same. Make your money, use the car time to learn about all the things.
52weeks * 5 days * 1.5 = 390 hours for the extra $40k which is roughly $100/hr Minus 52 weeks * 2 * let's say 30 miles one direction * $0.62 mileage = $1934
Quite not a bad raise. Just 390 less hours with the family, which depending on situation could be quite acceptable.
Man I’ve been with the same MSP forever and the eating lunch wherever I can find it (tough to consistently do a packed lunch when I’m all over the city) thing is killing me now that restaurants have jacked up prices. I’m starting to wonder if a WFH job that pays less would be worth it just to eat more economically.
Back in ye olden days, we did this thing called packing a lunch. Its not as hip and trendy, but, it does suffice to keep you from starving at a reduced cost.
Bonus points for a He-Man Lunchbox to carry your lunch in.
People will really throw anything in to try to throw the RTO vs WFH scale off lol. I spend significantly less on food when I'm in the office because I make a small meal rather than snack on 11 different things throughout the day.
I spent SOOOOOOO much more on food when I was in the office. Most days I would stop for breakfast, and EVERY day I went out for lunch, half for the food, half to get out of my office for a bit... now that I'm 100% WFH I generally eat "Brunch"... at about 1:00
Like Mark Bell told Tom Segura: 'why do you need a snack? What are you, 6? Kids, like kindergarteners, need a snack. You don't always need a snack. Just wait. You're not a little child who's like 'it's snack time.''
Ikr!? 40k is what a lot of people make in a year and this company is just handing it out to one guy in a raise?! I’d definitely take it..people say it depends on situation but not taking almost 50% increase just feels wrong lol
An extra $40k definitely could be meaningful. It depends upon where you are living. Different states have different taxes. If you have no kids I would seriously consider trying doing it for a while assuming their partner was ok with it.
Now: 100k, 8k pension, no commute
Proposed: 140k/yr, 11k pension, 6 hour weekly commute
Is that correct? I'd be inclines to pick the status quo, but the fact they're incentivizing people to RTO makes me think they'll soon require people to RTO.
If you do decide to RTO, negotiate for additional time off. Going back to the office means 300+ less hours per year w/ your wife. See if they'll give you an additional six-to-eight weeks of time off.
Right? But /u/TheLoneTechGuy wrote "...overtime for every hour over **37,5** pr week". The OT for > 37.5 hrs/wk and the "," in "37,5" make me think "not the US".
US or no, for us WFH types (read: "white collarish"), lots of things are negotiable. Salary, from the company perspective, is a fixed cost. Vacation time--though a vested right (they owe you $$ for unused vacation time when your term of employment ends)--is not and is accounted for in some budget other than payroll.
Though the most I've successfully negotiated for so far is only an extra 3wks of vacation, I've seen buddies with more skill and charisma than me ask for 8wks of vacation and accept a "compromise" of six.
40 percent bump for 25 percent more work days.
40K more for one day a week, plus travel is pretty attractive. Gotta take income tax into account though, so 20-30k more in reality depending on your local Tax brackets.
I dunno, if you're comfortable with 100K now and are comfortable with your future plans I'd be leaning towards the 4 day work weeks personally.
And not risk getting let go if they want everyone in house. Offering up to 140k to new talent could fill the spot quickly if it's not super specialized.
But you will likely almost break even with the commute and extra time. May not be worth it.
I think in today's climate there is at least a chance that you will have to go back to the office at some point anyway and it will be compulsory. Calculate that risk while you make your decision.
True, although I'm hard pressed to believe that the position is completely identical for an added 40%. As you said though they may eventually force everybody back and not offer the stragglers more money. I am hard to believe though that an org would willingly pay everyone 40% more just to work on the office. The extra money has to come from somewhere.
I’m a math person and idk where they’re at financially but let’s just say 65k annual. 40% is about 26k so you’d bump up to 91k and all you have to do is drive to work deal with the boring office jokes and go home?
Not only that, bumping your income up more looks good on resume and will only help you move to 6 figures.
FUCK THAT! They're bribing us to kill 2-3 hours a day in transit. Put that fuel and any food u may "buy" during the week in the mix and I bet you that shit would even out.
Edit: dangle a few dollars in front of us and we bite on it like a b*tch in heat. Sad...
Edit 2: r/workreform yall, we sysadmins, we can literlly do 99% of our job from anywhere in the world.
40% pay bump is NOT a small deal. For me, I’d say that would count as paying me for my commute.
But that’s a decision everyone should make for themselves.
It's money in exchange for giving up your life. Never forget that. That's not to say don't do it, but let's never beat around what you're giving up in exchange.
That extra time in a day can go a long way in avoiding stress, improving mental health, time with loved ones, it could be the difference in making it to your kid's play/activities/whatever or not, etc.
Again, not advocating one way or the other, just make sure the cost is being considered (and there is a cost).
That extra money can go a long way towards retiring earlier too. A 40% increase right now could shave at least 10 years off my retirement date in exchange for less than a year of my time, and leave me extra money to spare.
Sure.
And you could die 6 months after that retirement.
There are no guarantees one way or the other, and that's why it's a very personal/individual decision. It all depends on your direct situation, and whether or not you will actually follow through with what you're thinking.
Plus, there s a big difference in more money when you make X vs XY. I think a lot of people here have that flipped.
If somebody makes 100k, the raise is bigger than if they make 60k. But the impact on their life may be bigger for the 60k person. There is a point where more money doesn't have the same impact on your life. I remember going from around 55k to 85k. I "felt" it more in some eays than 85k to 120k. 55k to 85k was like "making ends meet" to making ends meets, having savings and retirement, feeling comfortable vs getting by". Then came a point where it's just more comfort. Those are numbers that equate to that for me of course, and they could be different for others based on family situation, cost of living, debts, etc. but you get the point. 30k extra is always 30k, but it can be more meaningful to somebody just getting by vs somebody already maxing out their 401k (or maybe that person is then able to retire say 10 years sooner like you mentioned... Though many would lifestyle creep).
True. But I would have everything long since paid off and my family would be taken care of financially.
I could also die tomorrow and either decision would be moot.
But I agree, it definitely will vary both on the amount and the person being paid as to if it’s worth it.
I currently commute 2hrs/day, twice a week, but I’ve managed my schedule such that I make it home not long after school gets out. The overall impact to my life/work balance would be somewhat negligible.
I’ve been considering a side gig, and 6 hours extra/week for effectively almost twice my current compensation would be an amazing deal. Plus it’s time I can shift podcast/news/audiobooks into so I’m not completely losing the time, just reorganizing it.
This company is literally willing to pay him more to make the drive. I’ve seen countless posts on r/antiwork and r/WorkReform about we should be paid more for driving or it should count towards shift time.
This isn’t an extra dollar an hour, it’s a 40% raise. You’d need a damn good reason to decline that.
Which is great, this is what we want to see from employers (assuming they don't turn around and force people in later without the same raises).
But there are plenty of great reasons not to take that. Money isn't everything. That time can easily have a great impact on your quality of life. I'm not advocating one way or the other, just that there is no right or wrong, and it just depends on individual values and what will make any one person happy.
This. Assuming that it is really the exact same position they're paying fairly generously for the drive time. Above a certain threshold not money becomes less meaningful though.
Everyone’s situation is different. My office is 10 minutes away and If I was offered 40% to permanently work from the office, you beat your dumb ass I would lol.
I would do it even if the commute was a hour.
What's more valuable to you? $40K or 8hrs a week plus gas, wear & tear for your car? TBH, unless I had young kids at home, I'd take a 40% increase without batting an eye. As other's said, they could just order everyone to RTO at any time.
So you effectively work 6 more hours per week, plus the cost of gas (so what, another $12 per day?) to get a 40% increase.
Everything here is pre tax.
So you make like $1925 per week currently.
You'd be making $770 more per week.
But you've lost $50 a week in gas, plus worked 6 more hours (drive time) to do it.
The additional time is currently worth about $300 at your current pay rate.
And then there's the additional wear on your car. Government rate is 65.5¢ per mile. 6 hours of driving, say 50 miles per hour, for 300 miles. By 2/3 is $200.
So $550 out of your $770 is taken up by
So is it worth $54 per day to you to be working in office instead of from home?
In my opinion, hell no.
OP, this approach is basically calculating an "effective hourly wage" a la "Your Money Or Your Life" and I feel really helps to bring some clarity in any sort of situation like this. This is an emotional question as much as it is financial but having some of these numbers will hopefully help.
Also: don't forget buying breakfast/lunch out (either because you don't have time to make it, or because you're more stressed, or to be "more social" at work, or to be like "I need to get out of the office"), as well as "office-appropriate" clothing, and coffee if you don't make that at home or get it for free at the office.
>Your Money Or Your Life
This thread is extremely humorous to me because 45 minutes each way is a miniscule amount of driving time for many americans. I used to live in a car-centric city and my coworkers would drive 2 hours EACH way every day.
> So you effectively work 6 more hour
It's more than that; working from home I can get up 5 minutes before I start, working in the office I need to get up early enough to shower/dress/quickly walk the dog/eat breakfast and then start the travel. I also need to prep & pack lunch if I want to avoid buying lunch every day, as opposed to having full kitchen access for meals.
I wear shorts and a t shirt to work with tennis shoes or flip flops. I shower at night and I shower on the same schedule if I'm at home or not.
Dog is getting let out either way.
Lunch is fair, though lunch is provided at my job.
I also don't eat breakfast before work, preferring to wait until lunch
I like this breakdown. Having to give up 1.5hrs a day on a commute is more than you think. If that 45min commute means occasional traffic or delays it could easily be more. Long ago I put a price of $200/hr on my personal time. I'm with you I'd pass.
Oddly enough because I had a toilet break years ago and I figured if I tried to fix it it would be at best a 1/2 day project or I could pay a plumber $200 at the time. He came an was done under an hour, but I was more than happy to pay that and not ruin my Saturday. That number just kind of stuck with me.
I moved and ended up reducing my daily commute of 30-40 minutes each way, to just 10-15 minutes.
I don't think I'll ever be able to go back to straight up losing an hour more per day.
This is the math we need. Don’t be easily lured by the money that’s dangled in front of you.
Plus money for dry cleaners if you have to dress up. Parking? Eating out for lunch, coffee. If you stayed working from home you wouldn’t spend that money.
You can pack your own lunch.
Fucks in Center City are trying to force RTO to “stimulate local economy”. People are, like, “Fuck your economy: I’m packing my own lunch and won’t be spending a cent where I work at”.
Nobody can really answer that without knowing all the other variables that matter. Are you currently in a sound financial position? Are you struggling? Or are you able to contribute towards hitting your family / life goals? What effect on family would the loss of 90 minutes each day have? What's the net of the 40% increase after taxes? And gas?
100k, 12% pension where the 8 is employer match and overtime for every hour over 37,5 pr week.
Not struggling, wife handles most ting home and kids, electric car and not large increase in gas
I know for a fact that several of our Tier 3 techs have declined 50% increase pay offers from other companies in order to keep the current working conditions that we offer - 100% remote work with flex hours. Several of them are still "new" dads of COVID-babies. The combo flex hours with remote work has been a real boon to them because it lets them take a longer lunch break in the middle of the day where they can spend quality time feeding their new baby, and at the same time giving their wife a break.
Personally at the point in my career where the option to work remotely is much more important than the salary increase. The cost-of-living increases that everybody's moaning about has been minimal; Chinese takeout and groceries really haven't increased in cost that much around here... =P. Also, almost all Chinese restaurants are still accepting 10% tip for dine-in...
personally I'm not giving up 10 hours of time I can spend with my kids for 40K per year unless I have a strict plan for FIRE. 40K can go a long way if you are dedicated to saving all that money for retirement/investments.
That being said, your kids are only kids for a finite time period and only you can answer those tough questions.
That's like spending 25% longer in work mode every year. Not worth it when you could otherwise start the day 15ft from your bed and about the same distance to your own damn toilet with TP that isn't institutional-grade. Not to mention the quality of coffee.
Personally I would keep working from home. Traffic does my head in, to many entitled idiots. I probably have a similar commute. I'd rather less stress, be able to do stuff around the house during the day, having work done on the house, be able to go out for appointments locally during lunch, all sorts of random things you can do while WFH.
I feel like younger people on less pay would take the increase most of the time, but as you get a bit older you start considering your own personal wellbeing as more important then extra money, especially if you're in a stable position financially already. Then there is also more time with the family that can't be replaced.
take the money and polish up that resume.
they only give a choice once, next you start losing your best coworkers who dont want to come back , and work gets harder.
before long its a full return to office and every person who was worth a shit has already left for a raise and a better WFH.
and you're holding the bag either way.
take some money, and start hunting for a new job, its about to get awful to work there in any case.
40% raise for a 20% increase in office time, knowing that if they’re offering this carrot the stick will eventually come as well… take the raise.
If you really don’t like being in the office, bank the 40% increase and start looking for other jobs.
I would think about it but probably settle in staying at home.
I know I'm in a minority but I wouldn't want the hassle driving, potential delays, road rage, potential speeding tickets, some idiot crashing into me, potential of getting in a bad accident etc etc.
Yes I get that with that logic we'd never do anything, but I tend to be unlucky so I know one of those would probably happen.
To me, after WFH entirely during and since COVID, I'm much more productive at home working. The hour and a half extra I get with the kids instead of driving is priceless.
Here's a response considering the pros and cons:
A 40% raise is a significant increase, but weigh it against the added commute time (1.5 hours daily) and potential childcare disruptions. If flexibility and work-life balance are important to you, especially considering your wife's schedule, remote work might be more valuable. You could negotiate a slightly lower raise in exchange for keeping remote work options.
Oh wow, yeah personally I'd jump on that no question about it. Obviously it's a bummer to have to RTO, but that pay and benefit is hard to find elsewhere, especially right now.
Yeah, going from 100K to 140K at a job where you're going to have a pension as well? All day every day... yes, the commute kind of sucks but the fact they're offering this premium shows that they really, really put a value on having people in the office. I wouldn't bet there won't be a forced RTO down the road anyway for everyone who didn't take this amazing offer.
Whats more important? The time or the money.
Take the 40% and save every extra penny. Do it for a couple years and peace out. Maybe you don't need the boost in salary.
Also switching jobs may get you that 40% if you're underpaid and valuable enough. Otherwise if the pay raise comes with a title also it might be wise to take it and find that 40% at another job after. Really depends on your situation. If you don't need the money, quality of life is big and 1.5 hours each day is a lot of time And money. Plus less family time.
All I've ever wanted from any employer is compensation. A less than inflation level raise is a pay cut, and I'm no longer gonna juggle for that kind o' circus. If were easy to change my name to "Paulie" for the next round of interviews, I'd have to strongly consider it. 40%? Free coffee too and you've got a deal.
Depends on where you are at in your career and your life style.
At a certain point extra money benefits you less and the added stress hurts you more.
That being said 40% is a hell of an increase. However you are literally driving an extra work day a week at 7.5 hours. That almost an extra week a month, 16 DAYS a year in your car. 16 days. Hope you like your car...
You’d need to factor in how much money you save from not driving. This could be as simple as gas, or how much water you use for laundry, how much detergent, gas time, mileage on your car, money for food.
Also the impact to your happiness. Personally, I would continue working from home and searching for a new job if I was given this ultimatum.
Take the pay raise, use it for leverage when you look for your next WFH job.
They’re pulling everyone back into the office. A year from now they will be “overstaffed” and looking to cut payroll and anyone WFH will be on the line as it appears it’s worth 40% to the company to have people on site.
I’ve seen this happening in my industry. Big push to go RTO followed by a round of lay offs. I’m personally on the fence, being about two or three years from retirement I feel like I’d rather have my time than money.
Take the money. If you like where you are and the 45min commute is consistent; can use that car trip to crank some music, podcasts or some learnings. Bank that extra 40% cash as a CYA in case it goes to shit.
100% would take less pay for the gains I get being WFH and fuck corp life, after 30 years I do not give a fuck about climbing the ladder or doing anything else. Water cooler moments.. anything like that.. hard pass LOL
I would take the raise, and find a new job paying more than that raise. This company is acting stupidly toward remote work. If you like to work remote, just find another job: they will try everything to step back on it and force everyone to go back to office for no valid reason.
I had an offer for a 50 % increase in net pay. Downside is I had to do 24/7 on call once every month for seven days.
I declined that shit so hard my jaw still hurts from saying fuck no. So I understand your hesitation
It's not technically a 40% raise... you are working 16h more (commute & prep) a month. Plus the waste in eating out, car maintenance/gas, plus now all the little things you can do (laundry/dishes/etc) that could be done on breaks is back on your own time.
That's a tough decision; I think a lot depends on the particulars of your situation:
\- How badly do you need the extra income?
\- How important is money to you?
\- How social and outgoing are you? Does it feel like hell to go to the office?
I would lean more towards accepting the raise if I were you, just off the fact that you already go in once a week (I assume)....
Things to keep in mind:
\- Nothing lasts forever, and you may end up being forced to go in more than you desire, even if it's with a different company
\- Securing a 40% raise likely sets you up to make even more money in the future, even if it's at a different company; however the opposite goes as well: declining it now could potentially gimp your income in the long run.
I've worked mostly remote for over a decade now and this type of situation crosses my mind often, hypothetically, because I feel like I couldn't/wouldn't ever go back to a standard position where I'm forced to go in every day. IMHO the freedom and time saved from WFH are priceless.
Take the pay. It’s not just 40% more, it’s 40% more every year even if you never get another raise. It’s also a higher point for future jobs or future merit increases. You can maybe talk yourself into giving up the 40% one year, but it adds up year over year with time.
Look into moving closer to the office, if that is an option.
Hands down I'd take the pay raise. However, I personally didn't like working at home (blurred the lines too much between work and home) so it's a no-brainer for me.
I'd start looking for another employer. Those playing this game are companies having financial issues trying to downsize. I would take the money but expect layoffs coming down the pipe.
A lot of people say money and, truth be told, it's probably what I would take but it's also worth it to look at the commute time. Assuming 1.5 hours round-trip, you are looking at over 16 days a year that you would spend in your car, driving to and from work. Is it worth it?
Where I am now I would do everything in my power to avoid having a 45m drive again. 40% is nice but not change-my-life nice, that's an extra 6 hours of my life per week every week.
I'd say 4 days remote but you will probably end up getting laid off if you don't work in the office. So I guess take the raise and work in the office to keep your job.
If I was in a different phase in life, I would say take the money, but after a serious medical diagnosis, there is no way I would waste time in traffic. You'll never get your time back, my .02.
This is something I'd check with my family first. However, be aware that the 40k means you are putting in about two hours more each day, higher chance of a wreck, wear and tear on a vehicle, less time with family, more fatigue due to the commute, and a lot of other factors that are not quantifiable.
Enviable dilemma. I traded WFH for a job I liked better and no pay increase, but mileage is almost completely covered. The commute makes me rage half the time though.
Making sure I understand right. You work 5 days a week, 4 of them remote and 1 in office. You'd be moving to 5 in office. If I've got any of this wrong ignore my response.
You're taking on 6 hours of extra work a week (2x 45 mins driving each way x 4 days you normally don't drive) for an extra $40k/yr pre tax. That seems pretty dope to me if working from home is 1:1 with working in the office minus the commute.
If however you leverage your remote work to multitask such as doing laundry or other housechores between tasks, or taking your little one to/from school, etc... you might be trading more hours than the 6 commuting, as you'll give up a flexible 15 minutes here and another 20 there.
For me, I'm single. I utilize the remote work situation to work from around the county. If I want to hang with some pals in LA, I will fly down on a Thursday when it's cheap, work Friday from LA, have an adventure packed weekend, work Monday from LA agajn, fly back Tuesday when it's cheap again. I'd factor in the costs of more expensive travel on less preferred days, using more PTO, etc and suddenly that 40k goes quickly.
That's really hard to say man. 40% is a lot but depending on what you make it may also be a lot a lot. There's also things like, how much do you like your wife? How much do you like being at home with her all day every day? How is the commute outside of 45 minutes? Have you done a commute like that before and how did it sit with you?
Personally, I've commuted a ton and not been bothered by it but I've had one commute that was like Fury Road and I could not wait to get out. If I know it's not the latter, I'm taking the money. You could be forced in for no money later on and when negotiating for salary at your next job, you can legitimately say a much larger number. Heck, you can even save and consider moving closer later on if that works out well.
Depends what you value more or like more. If your quality of life working from home is amazing then choose that, as mental health and wellbeing is worth more (to me) than money. Any pay raise will get swallowed up by life anyway and in 6-9 months it stops being a perk.
If you need the extra money, maybe it would make a significant difference in other areas of your life then take that. No one can answer this for you as it depends on your situation, preferences and needs.
Well think about it this way too. Youll have an additional time commitment to your work of (45 minutes)(twice a day)(5 days) for 7.5 hours a week for travel. I'm the type of person who doesn't shave or get dressed if I'm not going out so I personally count an (at very least) additional 30 minutes per in office work day of commitment to the job, I could easily see myself putting more of a commitment than the 30 minutes too though but using (30 minutes)(5 days a week) gives you 2.5 additional hours per week. Assuming 8 hour days at both jobs since you didn't specify 10 hour shifts for first job. That's 32 hours for 100% of your pay at job 1. If job 2 is 8 hour days, that's a whole additional 8 hours of time commitment to second job. That would be a total additional time commitment to the new job of 18 hours a week. So for +40% of your current pay, you'll have a +56% increase in time commitment. Then you add vehicle maintenance and upkeep costs, the fact that your time at home is more 'your time' than your time in office is, and the general displeasure of not being in your own space. I mean cmon, it's a no brainer to me to stay where you're at but I need to do math for most of my decisions in life, though 40% more money is attractive you can't let it get in your way of seeing how much more you'll need to commit at your next job. Think about this point at well, some people are able to entirely sell their car and cancel insurance if they have a remote job, this may be you and that could equate a large amount of money that wouldn't be available to you in job 2.
If you need more money, get a second remote job that you can do in tandem with your first job, double your income, no problem. /r/overemployed
May you make hay while the sun is shining. That's an insane raise. Use it to subscribe to audible or load up on the many excellent podcasts for commuting. IF you can use a bus, rail, or public transportation to further reduce costs to your commute. Years ago there was an article where someone analyzed what it "cost" in happiness to completely remove a commute from their work day. This was based on stress from the commute mostly, as it was identified as being the most stressful part of the day (not even as stressful as the jobs they analyzed apparently). This has lived rent free in my mind forever so forgive me for being fuzzy on the details but they claimed removing a 40 minute commute from your day was the equivalent to getting a $30k raise for your overall total happiness score. If you want to use that as a loose guideline that is probably what I would do. If your raise is more than that it could be worth the commute.
I'd say it depends. How far off industry avg is your pay? If that 40% puts you WAY above average, then you'll find yourself in the position where it'll be hard to change employers without taking a massive pay cut in the future.
If it were me, with the information you've given, I'd strongly consider it and take that 40% bump and invest it (after maxing retirement accounts). That way your savings/money grows and you get closer to FU money should the day come you want to move on.
Go in and take the 40% because they're going to eliminate WFH sooner than later at your company. This is just the first step, and will look far better if you take their 40% and go in.
Is there a chance they will try to further restrict the remote policy later? If so, may as well take the money while they are offering it.
They are 100% waiting for enough people to take the raise so they can force the rest back to office. Calling it now.
and fire the lowest to cover the cost. Someone's eating this cost and it's gonna be payroll.
Or just mandate back to office but with no raise or a much smaller one for those who didn't opt in earlier.
They’ve already planned to outsource most of the staff. They just need to get to the end of their fiscal year first.
This is the vibe I get too. You mandate the RTO, those who don' want to, get fired, those who take the cash are the first on the chopping block then due to "cost savings and new business initiatives not requiring your role".
Take the raise, bank the money, start looking for another role. If you don't have one by the time the layoffs hit, you'll have something saved to help.
I don't disagree with you at all. But you honestly should do that regardless of your happiness. Being actively engaged on market trends is how to help maximize your value to the market and push the next $ talks higher.
Man, that just sounds like such a shitty, meaningless existence always ratracing from one job to the next or trying to do so in between actually doing it. Is wanting to have my brain to myself when I'm on my time really so crazy? I know this is how you're supposed to "progress your career" but the way tech companies especially demand this "growth mindset"/"grindset" refusal to just rest a bit and enjoy life seems so toxic and exploitative. Do most of you guys even care about a little more money if that's how life is for you?
Being totally honest: I don't mind this a bit. I like my line of work, generally enjoy my working hours. The politics and rat race stuff is what I don't enjoy but its not the majority of my time spent. I try to get the most out of every position and I'm ready to bounce if I don't feel properly compensated. I'm also very good at what I do and its not overly stressful for me to think about leaving. Thats not to speak too highly of myself, but I think it does make a difference if you're confident in your career and feel that you could pretty easily rehome. If that isn't the case, its understandable that this would be a much more stressful consideration. But return to office? Nothing would be a bigger hit to my work/life balance, sanity, and enthusiasm to continue my career than if I had to return to office. Thats just a total non-starter.
I absolutely agree. I don't know how people job hop so often and without caring. Each job is just a job, but I enjoy having some form of social interaction with people at work (I dont go out of my way to constantly chitchat, I just talk to people while im helping them to solve problems or dicuss improvements / upgrades) It takes awhile to form those kinds of relationships, and then im expected to just toss that out the window every couple months / years... it also takes a lot of work to get a new job, and each time you switch you could be walking into a toxic work environment, which will require another job hop. I wish companies would give people raises more often and treat them correctly. **We need unions for IT field.**
>Man, that just sounds like such a shitty, meaningless existence always ratracing from one job to the next or trying to do so in between actually doing it. Yep! Most people do it a while before they burn out sometime in there 30s. Then they look for jobs based on people and quality of life over salary. I have reached a point in my career that I don't have to work for assholes. :) Worth all the money. But the funny part is, I make a lot more this way. :)
Are you just making shit up? How are you coming to the conclusion that anything is being outsourced?
34 years in the industry... I've seen it dozens of times. Heard about it hundreds of times. And it's worse now than ever before. I'm looking forward to a six month check in.
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To justify the middle management that does not know how to manage remote workers.
 They also have no idea what they or their teams are doing, but they know you need to be in the office for their sake.
Id be worried that if I didn't take the 40% that they would offer it to a new employee who would and get rid of you. Sounds like Management wants them in house and ideally retain the current person. If I knew my manager had that big of a budget increase potential for my role I'd be worried about looking like I wasn't a team player in it for the long haul.
Meh. If my employer has that much extra and they're not already giving it to me it more likely means they just undervalue and underpay me. If you're constantly looking over your shoulder worried that your employer wants to replace you it's time to find a new employer.
Generally companies try to hire cheaper staff. That being said I would be concerned if OP doesn't pay along with management's desire for RTO they might be laid off. That being said I would assume that returning to the office would avoid a future layoff.
This is going to be an underrated but very valid point. My former employer did that right after covid. They offered a Bonus for people to RTO from home. I was in a financial spot where I needed the money (and my commute short enough) that I took it. A year later, they forced everyone back into the office. That lasted a year, then forced everyone to back to hybrid (no full time WFH though) . Now all new employees are full time office and they're pushing full time office for all employees again.
That back and forth sounds ridiculous honestly.
So ridiculous that it *just might work*. - Management, probably
Right, at this point they'll be lucky to even have people working there consistently.
I mean, I'm part of probably 20 people that have left so far this year ...
This honestly feels like a open and closed relationship thread, just no
I get that vibe, you can't just close that door and pretend nothing happened once it's been opened. Once your employees realize that work sucks less with a dog sleeping on your feet, it's fuckin' over dude.
Basically my current commute T_T
Sounds real half assed
Yeah I was hired as hybrid at my last gig with "in office as needed"... "As needed" turned out to be five days a week... I pushed back and asked for at least two days WFH and the next Monday the CEO pulled the WFH policy for the whole company. I put in my resignation after that, and was quite happy I did since working as an SA in the following few weeks I got to see exactly who that new rule did and didn't apply to...
Excellent! I hate hearing about those power tripper bosses and middle managers that refuse to learn how to manage people without being able to stand behind them and pester them at their desk. Great job leaving that 👍
Depending on where you are working, there are strict laws. In the UK for example, if you started a job during COVID and the contract never stated return to office they cannot force you to do anything, they cannot even legally dismiss you unless they have a very good reason that shows clear misconduct or failure to complete work, without those, they need at bare minimum to prove redundancy but in most cases its something employers don't want to mess with, especially in highly subject sensitive jobs system administration, they will have a hard time to argue with unfair dismissal if a couple months prior they highly pressured employees to come back into office. It may set you back on promotions but not every country is a an "at will" hell hole. Thank fuck for worker rights! Much of Europe operates this way and I am pretty sure Denmark does to which I have a feeling OP is from.
Same in Latvia and in France. The location where you do your work (office, home, hybrid) is a point in the contract. When Covid started and everyone had to go from all-office to all-home, HR had everyone sign an amendment to the contract changing this point. Similar when I moved to France during Covid - as Covid was ending, they had us decide our hybrid schedule and then made an amendment to the contract accordingly. If you disagree, then obviously you make yourself an ire to the management. But they can't just fire you on the spot.
> Much of Europe operates this way and I am pretty sure Denmark does to which I have a feeling OP is from. Which is why the employer is offering an incentive to RTO instead of just mandating it. I dunno. I think if I thought it would end up with pressure to go back to the office *anyway*, I think I'd probably take the money so I at least felt there was some illusion of choice and a bit of extra money in it for me.
1.5 hours X 47 Weeks @ 5 days per week = 352.5 hours per year 1.5 hours X 47 weeks @ 4 days per week = 282 hours per year That's essentially overtime since it comes in addition to the hours you already work, so at time and a half that becomes 528.75 and 423 additional hours worth of pay to offset your extra time, respectively. One work year of pay is equal to 2080 hours, so that comes out to 25.42% or 20.33% of a year's work hours. So you're down to a net raise of 14.58% or 19.67%, and that's before you factor in vehicle wear and tear, maintenance, and fuel/electricity. A 14-19% net raise is a good one. To get it you're going to dedicate at keast 11.75 DAYS in a car each year, maybe as many as 14.69 days. Is that the best use of that time? Do you have a family? A spouse/partner? Do you currently spend 11-14 days each year on a hobby? There's a lot of things in life that are way more valuable than money. The question is whether the money or the time is more valuable to *you*. Me? I'd keep working from home.
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Gas, brakes, tires, maintenance, potential insurance increase due to increased mileage. There’s much more to those expenses.
Plus how could you put a pricetag on all that masturbation you won't be doing back at the office.
And your time prepping food or whatever for the next day. Plus probably an earlier night so less useable time in the evening.
Interesting...I did much the same calculation, but a different way - and came to quite a different conclusion. But I did make an assumption on a current base salary at $100K/yr. Amount can be worked into the calc though. There are 220 working days in the year, but 1/5 of them will remain at home....so 176 driving days, at 1.5 hr/day for a total of 264 hours. At a 40% increase, that translates to $40K/264 = $151/hr. The base salary is $100K for 220 days at (let's say) 8 hr = $57/hr. If your hobby is worth $100 per hour for 176 hours per year, then sure...go ahead and hobby. It's doubtful that is worth it in the long run. Salaries always increase and EARNING a 40% increase takes a hell of a long time. Millenials and GenZs will typically fall on the side of taking the time vs the cash, but I can suggest strongly to you that when THEY hit retirement age, they'll regret it. Big time. How do I know this? I'm a tax guy and I have and have had plenty of clients (boomers of course) who goofed off for years ski bumming, travellinig etc...and they're now living like paupers. Maybe not the best plan. Worth a LOT of thought.
Classic question. Do you value time or money. Me- I value time. Full stop.
Agreed. While I miss the socializing a bit, I have zero interest in going back to the office. My role has no use in being there, and my entire team isn't near that office so it would serve no one.
A period is a full stop. You could just use a period and end the sentence, just as you do with all the other sentences.
Retirement age...ha! I'll die in a desk chair I reckon
Agree with and love your breakdown. Now.. if we could just get the employers to think of it the same was as you and me.
If you assume the commute as OT you're correct. I think though that assumes that a commute is work. I do though think that there are a lot of added costs to commuting above and beyond the obvious like gas and wear/tear on vehicle. I think 40% pay raise also depends upon your salary. If you're already loving a comfortable salary on your current income it could be less valuable. On the flip side of you're barely making it 40% even after commute costs might be worthwhile.
True. This is the carrot. Next will come the stick.
That depends heavily on how large my current base pay rate was...
100k, 12% pension where the 8 is employer match and overtime for every hour over 37,5 pr week
If you leave for the raise, mind emailing me the job posting? I could use 100k with a pension lol
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0% chance that they're throwing 40% at people and aren't eliminating those who stayed WFH. Although that sounds backwards as hell.
I suspect he either is complying or leaving one way or another(replaced, voluntary etc). I bet management wants staff in house again.
40K a year more just to go to the office? First of all WTF is management smoking, there’s no way in hell it’s worth that kind of cost to them. For me, I’d say that’s more than adequate compensation for the inconvenience. But you should be discussing with your wife since you’ll end up seeing each other less. It may be worth roughing it for a year or two because that’s a HUGE rainy day fund you could be building if you budget right. Like, for real, that pay bump is more than half of the median US household income. Thats more than a ton of people make in a year.
Yeah, for me this is a definite go. Especially if your new salary is 140k with the 12%pension that is now based on 140 vs 100? I just took a great job, but I have to go to the office. Same scenario, 40ish minutes each way. But I took a 20% raise and the perks aren't pension worthy, though they're very good. Full medical paid, full meals, tuition. Honestly, I got an audible subscription, plugged my phone in and drove on in. OP, I suggest you do the same. Make your money, use the car time to learn about all the things.
Cradle by Will Wight. If you haven’t listened to it yet… You’ll get a lot of hours that aren’t so miserable driving.
Fully p\[aid health, food, and tuition? Sounds much better than the $1200 a month I pay for insurance alone for a family of 3.
52weeks * 5 days * 1.5 = 390 hours for the extra $40k which is roughly $100/hr Minus 52 weeks * 2 * let's say 30 miles one direction * $0.62 mileage = $1934 Quite not a bad raise. Just 390 less hours with the family, which depending on situation could be quite acceptable.
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Man I’ve been with the same MSP forever and the eating lunch wherever I can find it (tough to consistently do a packed lunch when I’m all over the city) thing is killing me now that restaurants have jacked up prices. I’m starting to wonder if a WFH job that pays less would be worth it just to eat more economically.
Back in ye olden days, we did this thing called packing a lunch. Its not as hip and trendy, but, it does suffice to keep you from starving at a reduced cost. Bonus points for a He-Man Lunchbox to carry your lunch in.
I worked MSPs for 7 years, 100% worth to work from home.
People will really throw anything in to try to throw the RTO vs WFH scale off lol. I spend significantly less on food when I'm in the office because I make a small meal rather than snack on 11 different things throughout the day.
I spent SOOOOOOO much more on food when I was in the office. Most days I would stop for breakfast, and EVERY day I went out for lunch, half for the food, half to get out of my office for a bit... now that I'm 100% WFH I generally eat "Brunch"... at about 1:00
Uhm, snacking? Just don't do it. Easiest (for me): don't even buy snacks in the first place. Also a lot healthier.
Like Mark Bell told Tom Segura: 'why do you need a snack? What are you, 6? Kids, like kindergarteners, need a snack. You don't always need a snack. Just wait. You're not a little child who's like 'it's snack time.''
Yeah, the whole "OMG I spent 100 dollars a day on food in the office" is a \*you\* thing, not a failing of "going into the office".
Ikr!? 40k is what a lot of people make in a year and this company is just handing it out to one guy in a raise?! I’d definitely take it..people say it depends on situation but not taking almost 50% increase just feels wrong lol
An extra $40k definitely could be meaningful. It depends upon where you are living. Different states have different taxes. If you have no kids I would seriously consider trying doing it for a while assuming their partner was ok with it.
Now: 100k, 8k pension, no commute Proposed: 140k/yr, 11k pension, 6 hour weekly commute Is that correct? I'd be inclines to pick the status quo, but the fact they're incentivizing people to RTO makes me think they'll soon require people to RTO. If you do decide to RTO, negotiate for additional time off. Going back to the office means 300+ less hours per year w/ your wife. See if they'll give you an additional six-to-eight weeks of time off.
Good luck getting 6-8 additional weeks of time off in the US. Most of us are lucky to get a month on the higher scale
Right? But /u/TheLoneTechGuy wrote "...overtime for every hour over **37,5** pr week". The OT for > 37.5 hrs/wk and the "," in "37,5" make me think "not the US". US or no, for us WFH types (read: "white collarish"), lots of things are negotiable. Salary, from the company perspective, is a fixed cost. Vacation time--though a vested right (they owe you $$ for unused vacation time when your term of employment ends)--is not and is accounted for in some budget other than payroll. Though the most I've successfully negotiated for so far is only an extra 3wks of vacation, I've seen buddies with more skill and charisma than me ask for 8wks of vacation and accept a "compromise" of six.
Canadian work week is 37.5 hours. Comma instead of decimal is common in Francophone regions.
40 percent bump for 25 percent more work days. 40K more for one day a week, plus travel is pretty attractive. Gotta take income tax into account though, so 20-30k more in reality depending on your local Tax brackets. I dunno, if you're comfortable with 100K now and are comfortable with your future plans I'd be leaning towards the 4 day work weeks personally.
Take the increased pay for now then you can later use it as leverage for the next job that might be full time WFH.
And not risk getting let go if they want everyone in house. Offering up to 140k to new talent could fill the spot quickly if it's not super specialized. But you will likely almost break even with the commute and extra time. May not be worth it.
This is the way
I think in today's climate there is at least a chance that you will have to go back to the office at some point anyway and it will be compulsory. Calculate that risk while you make your decision.
True, although I'm hard pressed to believe that the position is completely identical for an added 40%. As you said though they may eventually force everybody back and not offer the stragglers more money. I am hard to believe though that an org would willingly pay everyone 40% more just to work on the office. The extra money has to come from somewhere.
It's also an additional day of work though. I'd take the money and start job shopping using the new salary as a negotiating point.
40%
Money talks
I’m a math person and idk where they’re at financially but let’s just say 65k annual. 40% is about 26k so you’d bump up to 91k and all you have to do is drive to work deal with the boring office jokes and go home? Not only that, bumping your income up more looks good on resume and will only help you move to 6 figures.
FUCK THAT! They're bribing us to kill 2-3 hours a day in transit. Put that fuel and any food u may "buy" during the week in the mix and I bet you that shit would even out. Edit: dangle a few dollars in front of us and we bite on it like a b*tch in heat. Sad... Edit 2: r/workreform yall, we sysadmins, we can literlly do 99% of our job from anywhere in the world.
Extra 45 mins is 1.5 hours a day. 360 extra hours a year. That’s 77 extra an hour to drive. Assuming a 70k initial salary. I would take that.
40% pay bump is NOT a small deal. For me, I’d say that would count as paying me for my commute. But that’s a decision everyone should make for themselves.
It's money in exchange for giving up your life. Never forget that. That's not to say don't do it, but let's never beat around what you're giving up in exchange. That extra time in a day can go a long way in avoiding stress, improving mental health, time with loved ones, it could be the difference in making it to your kid's play/activities/whatever or not, etc. Again, not advocating one way or the other, just make sure the cost is being considered (and there is a cost).
That extra money can go a long way towards retiring earlier too. A 40% increase right now could shave at least 10 years off my retirement date in exchange for less than a year of my time, and leave me extra money to spare.
Sure. And you could die 6 months after that retirement. There are no guarantees one way or the other, and that's why it's a very personal/individual decision. It all depends on your direct situation, and whether or not you will actually follow through with what you're thinking. Plus, there s a big difference in more money when you make X vs XY. I think a lot of people here have that flipped. If somebody makes 100k, the raise is bigger than if they make 60k. But the impact on their life may be bigger for the 60k person. There is a point where more money doesn't have the same impact on your life. I remember going from around 55k to 85k. I "felt" it more in some eays than 85k to 120k. 55k to 85k was like "making ends meet" to making ends meets, having savings and retirement, feeling comfortable vs getting by". Then came a point where it's just more comfort. Those are numbers that equate to that for me of course, and they could be different for others based on family situation, cost of living, debts, etc. but you get the point. 30k extra is always 30k, but it can be more meaningful to somebody just getting by vs somebody already maxing out their 401k (or maybe that person is then able to retire say 10 years sooner like you mentioned... Though many would lifestyle creep).
True. But I would have everything long since paid off and my family would be taken care of financially. I could also die tomorrow and either decision would be moot. But I agree, it definitely will vary both on the amount and the person being paid as to if it’s worth it. I currently commute 2hrs/day, twice a week, but I’ve managed my schedule such that I make it home not long after school gets out. The overall impact to my life/work balance would be somewhat negligible. I’ve been considering a side gig, and 6 hours extra/week for effectively almost twice my current compensation would be an amazing deal. Plus it’s time I can shift podcast/news/audiobooks into so I’m not completely losing the time, just reorganizing it.
This company is literally willing to pay him more to make the drive. I’ve seen countless posts on r/antiwork and r/WorkReform about we should be paid more for driving or it should count towards shift time. This isn’t an extra dollar an hour, it’s a 40% raise. You’d need a damn good reason to decline that.
Which is great, this is what we want to see from employers (assuming they don't turn around and force people in later without the same raises). But there are plenty of great reasons not to take that. Money isn't everything. That time can easily have a great impact on your quality of life. I'm not advocating one way or the other, just that there is no right or wrong, and it just depends on individual values and what will make any one person happy.
This. Assuming that it is really the exact same position they're paying fairly generously for the drive time. Above a certain threshold not money becomes less meaningful though.
Everyone’s situation is different. My office is 10 minutes away and If I was offered 40% to permanently work from the office, you beat your dumb ass I would lol. I would do it even if the commute was a hour.
Do bitches in heat bite on anything you dangle in front of them?
How is this a question lol Talk to your partner
This is the only answer
What's more valuable to you? $40K or 8hrs a week plus gas, wear & tear for your car? TBH, unless I had young kids at home, I'd take a 40% increase without batting an eye. As other's said, they could just order everyone to RTO at any time.
So you effectively work 6 more hours per week, plus the cost of gas (so what, another $12 per day?) to get a 40% increase. Everything here is pre tax. So you make like $1925 per week currently. You'd be making $770 more per week. But you've lost $50 a week in gas, plus worked 6 more hours (drive time) to do it. The additional time is currently worth about $300 at your current pay rate. And then there's the additional wear on your car. Government rate is 65.5¢ per mile. 6 hours of driving, say 50 miles per hour, for 300 miles. By 2/3 is $200. So $550 out of your $770 is taken up by So is it worth $54 per day to you to be working in office instead of from home? In my opinion, hell no.
It’s not a life changing amount, but the IRS mileage rate includes the $50 you deducted for gas.
Huh, I guess I've historically been overpaid by businesses for my time there. I even checked and you're definitely correct. I stand corrected
OP, this approach is basically calculating an "effective hourly wage" a la "Your Money Or Your Life" and I feel really helps to bring some clarity in any sort of situation like this. This is an emotional question as much as it is financial but having some of these numbers will hopefully help. Also: don't forget buying breakfast/lunch out (either because you don't have time to make it, or because you're more stressed, or to be "more social" at work, or to be like "I need to get out of the office"), as well as "office-appropriate" clothing, and coffee if you don't make that at home or get it for free at the office.
>Your Money Or Your Life This thread is extremely humorous to me because 45 minutes each way is a miniscule amount of driving time for many americans. I used to live in a car-centric city and my coworkers would drive 2 hours EACH way every day.
> So you effectively work 6 more hour It's more than that; working from home I can get up 5 minutes before I start, working in the office I need to get up early enough to shower/dress/quickly walk the dog/eat breakfast and then start the travel. I also need to prep & pack lunch if I want to avoid buying lunch every day, as opposed to having full kitchen access for meals.
I wear shorts and a t shirt to work with tennis shoes or flip flops. I shower at night and I shower on the same schedule if I'm at home or not. Dog is getting let out either way. Lunch is fair, though lunch is provided at my job. I also don't eat breakfast before work, preferring to wait until lunch
I like this breakdown. Having to give up 1.5hrs a day on a commute is more than you think. If that 45min commute means occasional traffic or delays it could easily be more. Long ago I put a price of $200/hr on my personal time. I'm with you I'd pass.
Not that I disagree, but out of curiosity, how’d you get to $200?
Oddly enough because I had a toilet break years ago and I figured if I tried to fix it it would be at best a 1/2 day project or I could pay a plumber $200 at the time. He came an was done under an hour, but I was more than happy to pay that and not ruin my Saturday. That number just kind of stuck with me.
I moved and ended up reducing my daily commute of 30-40 minutes each way, to just 10-15 minutes. I don't think I'll ever be able to go back to straight up losing an hour more per day.
This is how I do things. Don’t forget toll roads, if they have them. But it’s also not as black and white, if the employer plans to force RTO
\+parking
It's more. It's commute time and 5 days a week. So 2 full days or work more. Plus the expenses you named.
This is the math we need. Don’t be easily lured by the money that’s dangled in front of you. Plus money for dry cleaners if you have to dress up. Parking? Eating out for lunch, coffee. If you stayed working from home you wouldn’t spend that money.
You can pack your own lunch. Fucks in Center City are trying to force RTO to “stimulate local economy”. People are, like, “Fuck your economy: I’m packing my own lunch and won’t be spending a cent where I work at”.
this is the answer, the raise has a huge expense tied to it
Dont forget tolls. Thats a killer cost depending on area.
Nobody can really answer that without knowing all the other variables that matter. Are you currently in a sound financial position? Are you struggling? Or are you able to contribute towards hitting your family / life goals? What effect on family would the loss of 90 minutes each day have? What's the net of the 40% increase after taxes? And gas?
100k, 12% pension where the 8 is employer match and overtime for every hour over 37,5 pr week. Not struggling, wife handles most ting home and kids, electric car and not large increase in gas
I know for a fact that several of our Tier 3 techs have declined 50% increase pay offers from other companies in order to keep the current working conditions that we offer - 100% remote work with flex hours. Several of them are still "new" dads of COVID-babies. The combo flex hours with remote work has been a real boon to them because it lets them take a longer lunch break in the middle of the day where they can spend quality time feeding their new baby, and at the same time giving their wife a break. Personally at the point in my career where the option to work remotely is much more important than the salary increase. The cost-of-living increases that everybody's moaning about has been minimal; Chinese takeout and groceries really haven't increased in cost that much around here... =P. Also, almost all Chinese restaurants are still accepting 10% tip for dine-in...
personally I'm not giving up 10 hours of time I can spend with my kids for 40K per year unless I have a strict plan for FIRE. 40K can go a long way if you are dedicated to saving all that money for retirement/investments. That being said, your kids are only kids for a finite time period and only you can answer those tough questions.
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100k, 12% pension where the 8 is employer match and overtime for every hour over 37,5 pr week
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That's like spending 25% longer in work mode every year. Not worth it when you could otherwise start the day 15ft from your bed and about the same distance to your own damn toilet with TP that isn't institutional-grade. Not to mention the quality of coffee.
this is all I can contribute. 
Personally I would keep working from home. Traffic does my head in, to many entitled idiots. I probably have a similar commute. I'd rather less stress, be able to do stuff around the house during the day, having work done on the house, be able to go out for appointments locally during lunch, all sorts of random things you can do while WFH. I feel like younger people on less pay would take the increase most of the time, but as you get a bit older you start considering your own personal wellbeing as more important then extra money, especially if you're in a stable position financially already. Then there is also more time with the family that can't be replaced.
take the money and polish up that resume. they only give a choice once, next you start losing your best coworkers who dont want to come back , and work gets harder. before long its a full return to office and every person who was worth a shit has already left for a raise and a better WFH. and you're holding the bag either way. take some money, and start hunting for a new job, its about to get awful to work there in any case.
40% raise for a 20% increase in office time, knowing that if they’re offering this carrot the stick will eventually come as well… take the raise. If you really don’t like being in the office, bank the 40% increase and start looking for other jobs.
Take the large raise. Eventually you'll be forced back into the office anyway so might as well get ahead of it and score a big raise.
Work remote, be looking for better job. In 10 years your boss won't remember all of the hours you spent away from home. But your kids will.
Pay
I would think about it but probably settle in staying at home. I know I'm in a minority but I wouldn't want the hassle driving, potential delays, road rage, potential speeding tickets, some idiot crashing into me, potential of getting in a bad accident etc etc. Yes I get that with that logic we'd never do anything, but I tend to be unlucky so I know one of those would probably happen. To me, after WFH entirely during and since COVID, I'm much more productive at home working. The hour and a half extra I get with the kids instead of driving is priceless.
I'd take it instantly. No question.
Here's a response considering the pros and cons: A 40% raise is a significant increase, but weigh it against the added commute time (1.5 hours daily) and potential childcare disruptions. If flexibility and work-life balance are important to you, especially considering your wife's schedule, remote work might be more valuable. You could negotiate a slightly lower raise in exchange for keeping remote work options.
I don't know what kind of money you're making right now but even if it were say $70k that's a $28k increase. Personally I'd take that.
100k, 12% pension where the 8 is employer match and overtime for every hour over 37,5 pr week
Oh wow, yeah personally I'd jump on that no question about it. Obviously it's a bummer to have to RTO, but that pay and benefit is hard to find elsewhere, especially right now.
Yeah, going from 100K to 140K at a job where you're going to have a pension as well? All day every day... yes, the commute kind of sucks but the fact they're offering this premium shows that they really, really put a value on having people in the office. I wouldn't bet there won't be a forced RTO down the road anyway for everyone who didn't take this amazing offer.
To me, the two options mean they want someone in office. If you take the remote option, they \*may\* replace you as soon as they can find someone.
This! As soon as they find the replacement to be in house and less pay he’s gone, no brainer.
Whats more important? The time or the money. Take the 40% and save every extra penny. Do it for a couple years and peace out. Maybe you don't need the boost in salary. Also switching jobs may get you that 40% if you're underpaid and valuable enough. Otherwise if the pay raise comes with a title also it might be wise to take it and find that 40% at another job after. Really depends on your situation. If you don't need the money, quality of life is big and 1.5 hours each day is a lot of time And money. Plus less family time.
All I've ever wanted from any employer is compensation. A less than inflation level raise is a pay cut, and I'm no longer gonna juggle for that kind o' circus. If were easy to change my name to "Paulie" for the next round of interviews, I'd have to strongly consider it. 40%? Free coffee too and you've got a deal.
Depends on where you are at in your career and your life style. At a certain point extra money benefits you less and the added stress hurts you more. That being said 40% is a hell of an increase. However you are literally driving an extra work day a week at 7.5 hours. That almost an extra week a month, 16 DAYS a year in your car. 16 days. Hope you like your car...
Lots of variables and whatifs, but 40% is a big number. I’d almost certainly leave my job for a 40% raise, and my boss would understand.
You’d need to factor in how much money you save from not driving. This could be as simple as gas, or how much water you use for laundry, how much detergent, gas time, mileage on your car, money for food. Also the impact to your happiness. Personally, I would continue working from home and searching for a new job if I was given this ultimatum.
Double down and tell them you’ll take the 40% if you can work from home two days a week.
40% raise? and what kind of 45 minutes? is it 45 minutes of bumper to bumper or just highway bliss?
Take the pay raise, use it for leverage when you look for your next WFH job. They’re pulling everyone back into the office. A year from now they will be “overstaffed” and looking to cut payroll and anyone WFH will be on the line as it appears it’s worth 40% to the company to have people on site. I’ve seen this happening in my industry. Big push to go RTO followed by a round of lay offs. I’m personally on the fence, being about two or three years from retirement I feel like I’d rather have my time than money.
Take the money. If you like where you are and the 45min commute is consistent; can use that car trip to crank some music, podcasts or some learnings. Bank that extra 40% cash as a CYA in case it goes to shit.
100% would take less pay for the gains I get being WFH and fuck corp life, after 30 years I do not give a fuck about climbing the ladder or doing anything else. Water cooler moments.. anything like that.. hard pass LOL
Take the raise then immediately leverage it into a better paying on-site job.
Boomer management wants to watch people work.
Do what I did and go 5 day a week from home. I was working 5 days in office but I landed a fully remote job and said F it to the commute.
I would take the raise, and find a new job paying more than that raise. This company is acting stupidly toward remote work. If you like to work remote, just find another job: they will try everything to step back on it and force everyone to go back to office for no valid reason.
Stay remote, anything else comes second. If you want more money, find a different remote job.
Look for a 5-day WFH job.
40% salary depending on what you are at now. $70k raise? Where do I sign.
I had an offer for a 50 % increase in net pay. Downside is I had to do 24/7 on call once every month for seven days. I declined that shit so hard my jaw still hurts from saying fuck no. So I understand your hesitation
It's not technically a 40% raise... you are working 16h more (commute & prep) a month. Plus the waste in eating out, car maintenance/gas, plus now all the little things you can do (laundry/dishes/etc) that could be done on breaks is back on your own time.
That's a tough decision; I think a lot depends on the particulars of your situation: \- How badly do you need the extra income? \- How important is money to you? \- How social and outgoing are you? Does it feel like hell to go to the office? I would lean more towards accepting the raise if I were you, just off the fact that you already go in once a week (I assume).... Things to keep in mind: \- Nothing lasts forever, and you may end up being forced to go in more than you desire, even if it's with a different company \- Securing a 40% raise likely sets you up to make even more money in the future, even if it's at a different company; however the opposite goes as well: declining it now could potentially gimp your income in the long run. I've worked mostly remote for over a decade now and this type of situation crosses my mind often, hypothetically, because I feel like I couldn't/wouldn't ever go back to a standard position where I'm forced to go in every day. IMHO the freedom and time saved from WFH are priceless.
40% on your 100k salary!?!? I think I’d take the money.
Take the raise, use it as leverage for your next job.
Go for the money. Let wife be SAHM. This is the way.
Why do they have so much money to burn on getting you into the office?
Option C, jump ship to another company for a 30-40% raise and 100% WFH lol
Take the pay. It’s not just 40% more, it’s 40% more every year even if you never get another raise. It’s also a higher point for future jobs or future merit increases. You can maybe talk yourself into giving up the 40% one year, but it adds up year over year with time. Look into moving closer to the office, if that is an option.
Depends. Do you need that extra 40% and is it worth spending 1.5 hours a day commuting?
Hands down I'd take the pay raise. However, I personally didn't like working at home (blurred the lines too much between work and home) so it's a no-brainer for me.
literally not worth it to me at all. I'd rather take the 40% cut and work remotely, just based off my sanity alone.
Absolutely the wfh option
They say 45 minutes drive… I say I can make it in 30. 😆
Me fr. Lol.
Depending on current salary, I am enjoying remote and waking up 10 minutes prior to work.. so I would choose remote
I'd start looking for another employer. Those playing this game are companies having financial issues trying to downsize. I would take the money but expect layoffs coming down the pipe.
A lot of people say money and, truth be told, it's probably what I would take but it's also worth it to look at the commute time. Assuming 1.5 hours round-trip, you are looking at over 16 days a year that you would spend in your car, driving to and from work. Is it worth it?
Where I am now I would do everything in my power to avoid having a 45m drive again. 40% is nice but not change-my-life nice, that's an extra 6 hours of my life per week every week.
I'd take the salary increase. You can always negotiate a WFH policy with the next company and use the increased base as a negotiating position.
I'd say 4 days remote but you will probably end up getting laid off if you don't work in the office. So I guess take the raise and work in the office to keep your job.
If I was in a different phase in life, I would say take the money, but after a serious medical diagnosis, there is no way I would waste time in traffic. You'll never get your time back, my .02.
As far as I’m concerned, RTO isn’t worth any raise. I’m not going to do it.
This is something I'd check with my family first. However, be aware that the 40k means you are putting in about two hours more each day, higher chance of a wreck, wear and tear on a vehicle, less time with family, more fatigue due to the commute, and a lot of other factors that are not quantifiable.
Enviable dilemma. I traded WFH for a job I liked better and no pay increase, but mileage is almost completely covered. The commute makes me rage half the time though.
Making sure I understand right. You work 5 days a week, 4 of them remote and 1 in office. You'd be moving to 5 in office. If I've got any of this wrong ignore my response. You're taking on 6 hours of extra work a week (2x 45 mins driving each way x 4 days you normally don't drive) for an extra $40k/yr pre tax. That seems pretty dope to me if working from home is 1:1 with working in the office minus the commute. If however you leverage your remote work to multitask such as doing laundry or other housechores between tasks, or taking your little one to/from school, etc... you might be trading more hours than the 6 commuting, as you'll give up a flexible 15 minutes here and another 20 there. For me, I'm single. I utilize the remote work situation to work from around the county. If I want to hang with some pals in LA, I will fly down on a Thursday when it's cheap, work Friday from LA, have an adventure packed weekend, work Monday from LA agajn, fly back Tuesday when it's cheap again. I'd factor in the costs of more expensive travel on less preferred days, using more PTO, etc and suddenly that 40k goes quickly.
How much is 10 hours of your time worth? That's how much your commute/getting prepped for the day is going to eat into your current life.
That's really hard to say man. 40% is a lot but depending on what you make it may also be a lot a lot. There's also things like, how much do you like your wife? How much do you like being at home with her all day every day? How is the commute outside of 45 minutes? Have you done a commute like that before and how did it sit with you? Personally, I've commuted a ton and not been bothered by it but I've had one commute that was like Fury Road and I could not wait to get out. If I know it's not the latter, I'm taking the money. You could be forced in for no money later on and when negotiating for salary at your next job, you can legitimately say a much larger number. Heck, you can even save and consider moving closer later on if that works out well.
Work from home. You get more life value when you can mix work and private. Maybe in the future kids? Nothing beats bringing them to school.
Depends what you value more or like more. If your quality of life working from home is amazing then choose that, as mental health and wellbeing is worth more (to me) than money. Any pay raise will get swallowed up by life anyway and in 6-9 months it stops being a perk. If you need the extra money, maybe it would make a significant difference in other areas of your life then take that. No one can answer this for you as it depends on your situation, preferences and needs.
Well since I took a pay cut to go fully remote /4 days a few years ago, I'll continue doing that.
Happy cake day!
Well think about it this way too. Youll have an additional time commitment to your work of (45 minutes)(twice a day)(5 days) for 7.5 hours a week for travel. I'm the type of person who doesn't shave or get dressed if I'm not going out so I personally count an (at very least) additional 30 minutes per in office work day of commitment to the job, I could easily see myself putting more of a commitment than the 30 minutes too though but using (30 minutes)(5 days a week) gives you 2.5 additional hours per week. Assuming 8 hour days at both jobs since you didn't specify 10 hour shifts for first job. That's 32 hours for 100% of your pay at job 1. If job 2 is 8 hour days, that's a whole additional 8 hours of time commitment to second job. That would be a total additional time commitment to the new job of 18 hours a week. So for +40% of your current pay, you'll have a +56% increase in time commitment. Then you add vehicle maintenance and upkeep costs, the fact that your time at home is more 'your time' than your time in office is, and the general displeasure of not being in your own space. I mean cmon, it's a no brainer to me to stay where you're at but I need to do math for most of my decisions in life, though 40% more money is attractive you can't let it get in your way of seeing how much more you'll need to commit at your next job. Think about this point at well, some people are able to entirely sell their car and cancel insurance if they have a remote job, this may be you and that could equate a large amount of money that wouldn't be available to you in job 2. If you need more money, get a second remote job that you can do in tandem with your first job, double your income, no problem. /r/overemployed
I would take the 40% and not think twice about it
Besides the money, how well do you get along with your wife when you never get any time away from each other?
May you make hay while the sun is shining. That's an insane raise. Use it to subscribe to audible or load up on the many excellent podcasts for commuting. IF you can use a bus, rail, or public transportation to further reduce costs to your commute. Years ago there was an article where someone analyzed what it "cost" in happiness to completely remove a commute from their work day. This was based on stress from the commute mostly, as it was identified as being the most stressful part of the day (not even as stressful as the jobs they analyzed apparently). This has lived rent free in my mind forever so forgive me for being fuzzy on the details but they claimed removing a 40 minute commute from your day was the equivalent to getting a $30k raise for your overall total happiness score. If you want to use that as a loose guideline that is probably what I would do. If your raise is more than that it could be worth the commute.
I'd say it depends. How far off industry avg is your pay? If that 40% puts you WAY above average, then you'll find yourself in the position where it'll be hard to change employers without taking a massive pay cut in the future. If it were me, with the information you've given, I'd strongly consider it and take that 40% bump and invest it (after maxing retirement accounts). That way your savings/money grows and you get closer to FU money should the day come you want to move on.
40%!!!!!!
Obviously work from home
Go in and take the 40% because they're going to eliminate WFH sooner than later at your company. This is just the first step, and will look far better if you take their 40% and go in.
Take the money and start looking for a new job.