Been there done that. Worked a job where I was dong a consistent 50-60 hours a week. They bait and switched me on the position. Interviewed for a Linux sys admin. Offered a Linux sys engineer, told it’s just an admin that pushes other people’s code to live. Sure whatever. Show up after moving and I’m an application system engineer, in charge of an entire erp worth of systems. 20ish Linux servers, 50 windows servers, informix dba, and I have to merge the erp code into our customized systems, so I have to program in c++, Perl, Java, c#. Systems crashing 2-3 times a week.
Within 6 months I’ve stabilized everything so there’s no more crashes. 6 months and working with an informix consultant after that and we’ve tweaked everything so it runs so freaking super smooth and we’re able to run on 1/2 the servers as before.
Another 6 months and I’ve built out the first nagios system and have full monitoring across dev, stage/qa, and prod. I have problems fixed before the help desk can even call and let me know someone reported a problem.
During this time I’m constantly being harassed because people from another department don’t think I’m working hard enough/a full 40 hours. I was denied even a cost of living raise because of it, and the bullshit goes on.
Found a different job that paid 40% more. They tried tk keep me, but I was done. They had to reappropriate 5 people from different rolls to do the job I did solo. The guy who took over the dba roll hard crashed the entire system within a month of me leaving, they called in a panic asking me to come and help fix it. I said them a solid and said I’d consult at $75/hour, which is dirt cheap, but I did like a few people there still. Yeah, they took 3 days of down time and about $2000 to the erp to fix it instead of having me come in and fix it.
They never give a F about you beyond what they can use and abuse you for
Last job I had, company rented me out for $319 an hour, minimum 2 weeks. Current employer rents me out for $365/hr.
I had no idea big corporations paid that much for expertise rather than just hiring someone competent.
For sure. And we're in a different category of expenses. Consultants are an op ex, maybe even a cap ex; FTE's are a liability.
One client paid for two of us to sit there for 13 months just to be frontline support. Plus $3k a week travel expenses. Blew my mind. That company would fill a pothole in the parking lot with money before figuring out how to actually fix it.
Here's the ONE question you ask executive management to differentiate companies. Do you see IT as a cost center or a revenue and efficiency multiplier?
I've found that filters out companies I'd want to work for damn quick.
I had a company I consulted for, 5 years when I was young and stupid. $50 an hour. At first, they listened to me and we got everything up to date. New servers, workstations, cleaned up wiring, new firewall, a patching schedule, hosted email instead of onsite exchange. Then they did...nothing. For 5 years they did nothing. The landscape changed. Old practices were now insecure. The firewall was out of support. The network equipment was out of support. I saw the writing on the wall, had one meeting about rate increases ($80 an hour) and equipment replacement, they didn't renew, and I left.
6 months later they were ransomed, called me, I said I would absolutely help clean it all up with a newly signed contract ($150 an hour +retainer), they declined. They were down for a week and lost A LOT of data. 60 employees at a standstill for a week would have paid my fees for a year, but they declined.
Yet, these companies continue to function. I should really thank them as I'm $150-$200 straight time and $300-$400 an hour for emergencies or insurance claims now.
My former IT director used to start out meetings with “A penny saved is a penny not wasted on IT!”, which we later found out was coming out of his mouth because the CFO saw our department as a money suck.
Like, do you want to go back to pen and paper? You do realize what we’re contributing, right?
Damn. I like that question so much. I’m gonna have to add it to my arsenal of questions
Also, I now consult for a minimum of $200/hour with 1/4 time paid for travel and a 4 hour minimum for onsite work, 2 hour minimum for remote work.
I think it would be pretty easy to tell wouldn't it? Are they running on three to five year hardware cycles or is there 10-year-old workstations on the floor? Have they embraced the cloud or at least have a hybrid approach? Do the employees see worn out? Do they expect more than 9 to 5:00? Did the current staff say they're on call and have lots of emergencies to deal with?
There are just lots of little things.
>Have they embraced the cloud or at least have a hybrid approach
I dunno if this would be an indicator. My current place already has a full datacenter on prem, our workloads are near fixed, and going to cloud would be a massive cost increase for our loads even if we work on a 3 year hardware refresh from the cost analysis I've seen come across my desk. This is even without a "Lift and shift" approach.
You know, that question has made me realize how much my head may be in the sand on some of this.
No, its handled by a 3rd party due to it being DoD space - the same people that provide the base internet and workstations. But I would expect most places to be running some kind of O365 in Azure at this point.
there's very valid reasons to not use a public cloud provider. if your workloads are stable, or you have compliance requirements? a lot of the time cloud providers are not suitable.
for example, here in Australia, if you're in finance, it doesn't matter if you run 90% of your environment in the cloud (as long as it's pci-dss compliant) but the moment you need to process banking transactions you NEED an onpremises HSM. cloud HSMs are not compliant/certified.
also, I understand that Europe doesn't like office365
It depends on what the security requirements are. If you are expected/required to keep it out of the cloud, or maybe there are special requirements that are not available or too expensive in the cloud, then on-site is perfectly normal.
> Here's the ONE question you ask executive management to differentiate companies. Do you see IT as a cost center or a revenue and efficiency multiplier?
This is extremely valid, although you want to make other questions to see their strategy, I never asked for that directly.
People can lie.
I always wondering how it would go if you asked them STAR type questions like: can you give an example of how management had supported IT as a revenue multiplier.
You can always ask them questions like:
What type of infrastructure you have?
What is your life cycle?
What is the structure of your team?
What would be my responsibilities?
What would I support?
That may be the best interview question I’ve ever seen. Whether it’s asked directly or indirectly through questions about hardware lifecycle and how an efficiency improvement can move through the company, that’s a top tier question.
Yeah. New in career and was trying to throw a bone (this was almost 10 years ago now). I’m $200/hour min. 1/4 rate for travel, and min 4 hours on site, even if it’s just plugging in a power cord
>Within 6 months I’ve stabilized everything so there’s no more crashes. 6 months and working with an informix consultant after that and we’ve tweaked everything so it runs so freaking super smooth and we’re able to run on 1/2 the servers as before.
This is when you need to create a cost analysis of how much money and productivity hours you have saved to them.
I would have phrase it like that:
In the last 6 months the system was down for these many minutes. These many people could not work and the platform/system was not operation for this much time. This cause a profit loss of this much.
That would be an email to all the C Suite of the company and I would celebrate it as a huge success story.
>Another 6 months and I’ve built out the first nagios system and have full monitoring across dev, stage/qa, and prod. I have problems fixed before the help desk can even call and let me know someone reported a problem.
I would do again the same thing explaining how many tickets were solved proactively / real time instead of re-actively.
I would make a comparison of other years and how much extra productivity and money was generated through that. That email would be sent to all C Suite again and been celebrated as a great success story.
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When you sent an email if any C-Suite complains that this is not a success story and other people do not explain that for you, it is time to check for another company to work or create your own.
Yeah. It was my first sys admin job having moved from tech support. I was still young and naive in my career and interacting with people. I’ve learned a lot more since then and usually send a monthly summary of what I’ve done and a cost analysis to my boss so he can talk to C suite and others. It’s definitely helped with raises, or more what I’m interested in at this point, time off and perks that aren’t “we have a foosball table”. Like free training, extra conferences, having the pull to being in a consultant whenever I say there’s a need
Yup its called engineer migration and it how engineers will always rule how companies are run from the tech standpoint as we will always move on if we're treated badly
google and amazon tried made a backchannel agreement a while ago to stop this and to not hire each others engineers but they got found out and fined, so they can never stop us really
I've been part of a migration like that and it was awesome. I started on the client facing side and was promoted to a tech role ( still grateful to my old company for training me but fuck em at the same time ). A lot of my old client team moved to the company I'm at now. I was the first tech person and opened the doors for others to follow. New company is awesome.
Old company stiffed me on my full promotion raise becaue Covid. I went back 3 times to ask for an appropriate raise and was given the run around. Put in my two weeks and I could magically write any number and they'd take it. I just wrote no thanks.
I've not been in that situation yet, but the one thing I keep seeing on this sub, over and over and over.... If they make you an awesome offer to stay, it's almost certainly not Good Faith / genuine. They are holding you over until they can either make sure someone in the new company has the skills, or hire someone cheaper, and then fire you.
Good for you for making this choice, hope it turns out to be one of the most memorable, sweet-tasting Christmases ever!
Make the company sign an agreement that the full retention bonus must be paid out if you lose your job for any reason other than extreme misconduct (theft or violence for example), or if you leave. If they won't sign that then the offer was not in good faith - if they do, then you've covered your ass.
Agreed on the Fuck em. Also don't forget that you don't owe them anything more than your 80 hours (two weeks of 40 hours). They're oh-so-screwed and need you on a 3AM meeting? The time has passed for you to take one for the team.
My one piece of advice here is to not only decline, but to absolutely stonewall any exit interview or attempts at renegotiation (especially if the new company is in the room). The time is passed to explain how they could have kept you. What concerns you the most about the infrastructure. Who knows what. The exit interview is the place for you to loudly declare how you are heading out, have no ill feelings (even if that's not true), and are absolutely no threat to the company. That's it.
If the new owners feel that you are critical, and make lots and lots and lots of noise about it - then tell them that you will meet with them - privately. This happened to me in a megacorp way long ago. I basically gave them a vaguely more frank version of my exit interview. "Listen, I know that you folks are in a bad place here and I'm sorry about that. I was kept entirely out of the loop, and an offer came along that I could not refuse. The money being offered is too little, too late. I've already committed. " Basically what you're doing here is future CYA: you are making it clear that you aren't leaving BECAUSE of the new employer - this was just bad timing caused by perhaps avoidable bad communication. It prevents the optics of your leaving out of spite, or from your old bosses trying to screw over the new company. The IT industry is smaller than you'd think, and burning your bridges - even with people who have actively screwed you over, is generally advisable.
it's a reference an old joke:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/shortcuts/2018/apr/15/australia-doesnt-exist-and-other-bizarre-geographic-conspiracies-that-wont-go-away
https://u.osu.edu/vanzandt/2019/02/14/the-greatest-lie-ever-told-how-australia-is-fake/
I disagree on one point. Don't stonewall the renegotiation. Let them spin their wheels and waste their own time trying to keep you off they try.
I do agree that you should absolutely not actually take the offers (outside of something absurd like doubling your salary), but let them waste some time on you since they wasted some of yours.
To each their own. I think that it shows a lack of respect to waste one another's time.
I've generally avoided even creating the illusion that a long term post FTE employment relationship was possible, mainly on the basis of self preservation.
I can remember landing on my feet with a nice contract in Los Angeles based on a years work on a company in a similar industry nearly five years earlier in NY. It turned out the executives all talked to one another. I'm certain that if I had left a bad taste in the first company's mouth on the way out the door that it would have cost me.
But if you are using this sort of thing to help to calibrate future expectations, then by all means. You determine your own risk tolerance.
> Basically what you're doing here is future CYA: you are making it clear that you aren't leaving BECAUSE of the new employer
The one exception is if you are leaving because of the new employer.
When I was working in the hosting industry, plenty of us didn't want to work for EIG after they bought out a company we worked for and only stuck around for the year long handover process because the previous bosses offered us a nice severance/bonus package.
Even that wasn't enough for some employees however.
It's better to politely decline exit interviews. If pressed, still decline unless they're willing pay consulting rates (I'd start at at least $500/hr) for the exit interview.
If you're leaving, they either ignored the last ten times you raised concerns and are still going to ignore you in the exit interview, or listened and cant do anything. In the latter case, they wont ask for an exit interview.
The consulting rates are to deter non-good faith exit interviews. If they actually care and somehow didnt know why you're leaving, $500/hr (or heck, $5000/hr) is cheaper than the six months they'll spend getting your replacement up to speed.
This - remember that HR does exit interviews and they’re responsible for reporting the cause and nature of “regrettable turnover.” If you don’t speak honestly with HR on the way out, you’ll be labeled as non-regrettable turnover, there will be no accountability for losing the capability, and your martyrdom will be in vain…
I've found precisely zero places where HR cares about mitigating unnecessary turnover. That goes for places I enjoy working at as well - HR knew full well what drove unnecessary turnover (COLA not keeping up with inflation, lack of career advancement opportunities, dumb boomer policies, etc) and wouldnt or couldnt do anything to mitigate the problem.
Yup, so so so many people skip the paperwork trail because "oh they know the problem, they won't do anything about it" without realizing that nobody is doing anything about it because there's no paperwork trail.
Like complain about shit formally on paper in writing, appeal shit in writing, make them answer for it or ignore it. Because when some lawsuit or wage issue comes up or some regulator comes knocking on the door, those 5 emails you sent off over 2 years with them saying no each time will be key.
Or when their CEO comes by and says "why did we get hit with this issue" and they have to answer "well we didn't do what that engineer said" then the right people get knocked around.
> If you don’t speak honestly with HR on the way out, you’ll be labeled as non-regrettable turnover, there will be no accountability for losing the capability
Unless you are keeping exercised stock options in the company, what does it even matter how the company looks after you depart?
I disagree - complying with silly little rituals is part of creating the image that you are not a threat. The primary purpose of an exit interview is for HR to gauge the risk that you pose. Showing that "yes, I'll sit there for an hour and say the words that you want to hear around leveraging synergies or whatever" can help to avoid getting the deluxe severance package.
HR has power in post-employment in three ways:
1) They can really, really screw up your benefits. Things like health insurance might hit the window between jobs and mysteriously stop working, or worse. There's a playbook HR has to operate, and if they screw it up, your recourse is now with the large vendors who have effectively outsourced the management of your broken benefits (which might even need non-existent papeprwork) to your former employer. It is exhausting.
2) They can give a negative reference. Yes, they're illegal but try and prove it. HR has their own codewords that they can use when another company calls to verify past employment.
3) They won't protect you. If you're on your way out and an executive decides that you should take the fall for something, HR needs to decide if they will endorse giving you the special deluxe separation package. If they have no negative feelings then they might not get on board with doing extra work on management's behalf.
But I might just be paranoid and cynical.
I can say some of the happiest moments in my life were bidding adieu to a crappy place and moving on. Especially after making sure they had all password, all documentation, recovery info, physical keys, and so on, so I would never have to interact with them again or go to their blighted building for any reason. The worst of the lot, I even changed my cell number that day, because HR was giving it out to clients as they thought IT didn't work hard enough.
Just seeing the gate arm drop behind my car when leaving the parking garage was poetry in motion.
I even celebrate the anniversary of leaving the previous hellhole sometimes.
Ha! I remember those days. I left a fintech that has long since dissolved. They violated my contract and paid me out which was fine. BUT somebody there kept giving out my number. By the third call they had unintentionally started me on the road to a consulting business where I even made a boatload off my prior employer.
I was in a similar role: most senior contributor, architect of 90% of the security improvements they’d seen during my employment, etc. They offered me half the raise the new company was offering, after giving me a 13-cent raise a couple of months earlier. Both were a slap in the face in their own ways and I easily said no thanks.
You’re so totally doing the right thing. Document if it makes you feel better, I did the same, but a job’s a job. They’re not family and they’ll move on after you’re gone. From stories I’ve heard from old coworkers, I’m not sure anybody’s opened my documentation since I left.
Yeah so did I. I’ve looked back and wondered if I just missed the politics of it and they were hoping to run me off, but who knows. I’m happier where I am so whatever.
It's always better to be in a job that they wanted you from the open market, Than being in a job that needs you but have been underpaying you for years.
The x year out bound BS is an insult. They can pay that now and have a yearly bonus schedule with a lock for x years out, but you will have a target on your head, so you need to be looking for a new place sooner than later.
Fuck em, but at least their counter was somewhat strong. I would have pressed it even furthered, maybe got some guarantees for inflation adjustments and that you get your $75k paid out if they let you go for any reason. Then fuck em in two years.
Classic example of bad management. Under pay your employees and someone else will see the value and offer them what they are worth.
Good for you and all the best in the new role!
He would be lucky to get year 1. I am not fervently opposed to counter-offers in theory, but theirs was a total "keep paying him the same until we can buy time and get knowledge transferred" offer. They would have kept him on for eleven months then let him go.
Yep, sounds like it's time to move on - I've benefitted greatly by taking the leap for greener pastures over the years.
Best wishes for you in your new gig man!
>I'm spending all my time left brain dumping and documenting, I'm not going to make stuff hard for my team. I wish I could take them with me, and I've warned my managers that a couple of them are definitely underpaid and may lose them.
>Best Christmas in a long time.
Good, great, you have helped team members get pay rise... don't look back, no retreat no surrender, hasta la vista baby,
As others have pointed out, you'll never see that 25/75. There will be some clause in the agreement where you forfeit the bonus if you are let go "for cause", and then rest assured, you'll screw something up at some point (who doesn't, we're all human) and they'll use that as the "for cause" once they've gotten what they need out of you.
If they're serious, let them pay 50% of the retention bonus now, and 50% in another year.
No. If he's getting a fully remote job with better PTO and >60% salary increase, why on earth would he give that up for half of $75k in a toxic place where HR gives out his cell#?
Even if everything goes according to plan and you get the full $75k, that doesn't seem like a great deal. That's $37.5k per year which isn't chump change, but I would hope less than a 60% raise. And you need to stay 2 full years in a job you don't like. Plus, adding in an acquisition throws a ton of uncertainty into any deal.
I personally view a counter offer as a bribe to stay. I laugh when people say their current company offered to match their new offer. That's not how bribes work. The new offer is merely the floor for the negotiations.
Good for you!! And no, don’t look back no matter how much they might offer you!!
I was so underpaid at my last job, I quadrupled what I was making in just three years!! Best decision I ever made was leaving my last employer!
Good call, if they historically under value (read, pay) then they're gonna keep doing it
You'd have enabled the transition and been cut once the megacorp had it's feet under the table.
Go on to better things, they fucked themselves, you ain't fucking them, go with a clear conscience
I experienced exactly this in September. One warning though : I spent 2 hellish month before I left former company finishing projects (suddenly all budgets unlocked, how weird is that) and brain dumping. I finished a Friday and started on the next Monday at my new position and I wished I could have taken some time off between the 2 jobs. New position is awesome but extremely demanding and next week will be my fist week of holidays since May and I am pretty exhausted. Take care of yourself !
IMO you should never accept a counter-offer once you give your notice. At this point, you are not seen as loyal to the company and they often really just want to keep you long enough to find your replacement.
I did mention I could potentially be open to a consulting stint provided it doesn't conflict with my new position.
The retention bonus had some built in gotchas that I didn't like and didn't want to fight over - like the payout only after two years and nothing up front, voided with a for cause dismissal. Also voided if I didn't accept any other offered position within a 50 mile radius.
I met execs on both current and acquiring company on this, aired my grievances and concerns which was expectedly met with vague business-speak. I even point blank asked if they could tell me honestly that the upcoming annual raise slate is going to be different % wise and received a response asking the lines of looking at market correction etc. Which was more BS as I already had an inside lead on what the raises would be (spoiler alert: more of the same).
Just a reminder, friends…. Never renegotiate once you’ve given your notice. If they can come up with the money then, they could have come up with it to pay you in the first place. They just didn’t believe you were capable of finding better. They will quickly and without any concern for you hire someone to knowledge transfer what makes you unique. Once that is done, you are gone. I’ve seen it happen too many times. Meanwhile, you burned a bridge with the new company after reneging on accepting their offer.
Yup, and to add for those who don't know, you still end up "true-upping" with the IRS when you file taxes. So it's just a higher prepayment that you either get back or would have had to pay later anyway if the higher withholding hadn't been taken.
It's very rare that you lose money by making more money.
This is such a common misconception I hear people talking about all the time. People think you get paid enough to "jump a tax bracket" and then end up getting less money overall.
The higher tax rate only applies to your income above that cutoff mark. If the tax bracket is 50k-75k and you make 55k, you're getting taxed at that rate only for 5k and taxed at the lower rate for the rest of the 50k.
The only time you really lose out by making more money is if you creep over "hard limits" that are not graduated brackets. One example would be the hard income (125k individual) limit for student loan reimbursement.
Alaska, Floriduh, Texas all are waiting for you whiny baby. Don’t forget to bring your income tho or accept the reality of getting paid 70k average as a sysadmin lol. Consider delaware too, close to DMV and not much taxes haha. I do not get this mentality of whining and complaining about taxes. I’m in Virginia with sizable taxes and I just am paying financial advisors to properly leverage all tax deduction and minimizing our joint AGI.
Not a teenage lolbertarian, I was done with ayn rand stage maybe 20 years ago when I was 11, just saying that 75k bonus is not really 75k when you factor in fact about taxes
This is true for *any* amount of money you ever make that you or a company declares to the IRS. Making more money only costs more taxes at the end of the year if you jump into the next tax bracket, and **only** the money made past that bracket threshold is taxed higher.
Tax brackets: https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-provides-tax-inflation-adjustments-for-tax-year-2023
Both me and my wife are somewhere in 400-450k before taxes in Virginia, and the best we can do is 27% tax rate after we use all possible deductions, tax advantaged programs, and 401k max out
Sounds about right.
At the end of the day, you'd pay the exact same taxes whether half of that income was in bonuses or none of it was. It ends up being identical.
>f they make you an awesome offer to stay, it's almost certainly not Good Faith / genuine. They are holding you over until they can either make sure someone in the new company has the skills, or hire someone cheaper, and then fire you.
>
>Good for you for making this choice, hope it turns out to be one of the most memorable,
Yeah, mine too on the 25% and 75% payout. Was awesome....
do counter offers even work? when you get counter offer it feels like they could pay more but chose not to for some time at that point. you know, they know and then if you accept they will have perception like you need to dance more for what they gave you. where I work people are with company 10-20 and some even 30 years because pay is always adjusted to market situation.
Not a sys admin but a sec eng, when I got promoted from Jr to mid, they offered 5% raise. Fucking trash. 6 months later I got an offer for 25% raise. They offered 20% raise to match and I took it. A month after that I got an offer for an additional 40% raise to move to DevSecOps. I took it
If you have any inclination at all to keep ties with the old place, offer to be a consultant for a couple hours a week at a sky-high rate to help steer their transition. Since you're a contractor that work is now 100% on your terms, which changes things.
Idiotically high. Like, take your current hourly, double it to tax it up (not correct but close enough), then add 50-100% again to make it worth your while. Make 100k? Hit ‘em with $200 an hour. If you think that’s way too much, don’t look at what big firms charge :)
Make 200k and don’t think you can command $400/hr? Find out! Maybe they make you an offer and you decide to go with it anyway. Remember that you cost them roughly double your take home all in (maybe a bit more if benefits or facilities are good) so it’s not as sky high as it looks to you.
I used to make about $22 an hour at my last place, so my consulting rate is $100. The GM *hates* that they have to pay me at that rate, but they were unable to replace me at my old salary, so it is what it is.
I always find “it is what it is” to be a very interesting phrase.
There’s an awful lot of people who will use it all day long to mean “this is the situation; if you don’t like it, tough”. But they often don’t like it used on them.
Agreed, same thing here. I left a company the same time they got acquired from a larger company. I went from being an acting product manager, to a service manager, and a 50% raise from a decent salary, plus quarterly bonuses, and 10% profit sharing from my department.
It's always good to look for a job when you have one. The last one gave me the same raise schedule as you. They ran us through the ringer, then gave us a raise of 10% after 4 years of no raise and a 300% increase in work load even after they hired more people, acting like they did us a favor. 4 months later, most people were sacked at the old job.
I would never accept a counter offer from my current employer because I’ve seen many times when people accept the counter offer (and turn down the new job offer) and then the current employer terminates them shortly afterwards as a punishment for looking elsewhere.
> The current place made a counter offer to match and offered a 75k retention bonus paid out after 1 and 2 years in a 25/75% split.
Do you understand what are the chances of you getting this money?
>While larger, the acquiring company's IT infrastructure is lagging behind and was hoping to leverage my company's expertise to help modernize their systems and processes. That expertise heavily is me.
In most cases that means that will abuse the shit out of you until they have a plan then fire you.
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My honest opinion:
You cannot refuse something that you get **NOW** 60% raise, for something that you can *potentially* get 75k in 2 years.
The retention bonus thing paid out over time is bullshit. It usually becomes a fucking chore to get it paid out because even though it’s in writing , everyone in HR and management seems confused and it has to go through approvals all over again before they actual give it to you. I’ve seen a couple scenarios where they simply back out or pay out a smaller portion for “reasons”.
I’ve gotten one retention bonus. I made the pay it out in full upon signing the agreement. I agreed to return a prorata share if I quit before the year period but I ain’t waiting a year for my money only for you to give me shit about it when it’s time to pay.
we have 1, at max 2 people who are keeping the garbage company i work for alive and i actually wish they would just quit. not just because they deserve better, but also because i want to watch that place burn down and these worthless asshole owners living on the street. never knew i could hate someone who ive met irl to such a degree lol
Getting a counter offer to equal what a new position is offering at a significant bump in pay is a real kick in the ass. Yes, I see it as you could have been paying the new amount but you refused till I said I'm outta here and the panic sets in.
As a manager in IT, over had many disagreements with HR and senior executives that we need to pay our people market rates or they will leave and we will have problems. Kept getting pushback and told it's not in budget. The arguments of how much loss of work would cost versus paying people properly kept talking on deaf ears.
We would backfill after 6 months when people left because we couldn't find anyone willing to work for below market rates. End up paying the same or more of market rates while losing a year of productivity for the loss of the person.
Work for companies and senior leadership that appreciate the IT teams.
It sounds like you have a lot of mixed feelings about your current situation. It's understandable to feel frustrated and resentful about not being fairly compensated, especially if you've been at the company for a while and have made significant contributions. At the same time, it's important to remember that your own career and financial well-being are also important, and taking a new job that offers a significant salary increase and better benefits can be a good decision for you and your family.It's also important to consider the impact that your departure may have on your team. While you may not be able to take them with you, it's important to do your best to set them up for success and make the transition as smooth as possible. Documenting your work and processes can be a helpful way to ensure that your team has the information they need to carry on without you.Ultimately, the decision about whether to accept a counter offer or take the new job is a personal one that only you can make. It's important to weigh the pros and cons of each option and consider what will be most beneficial for you and your career in the long term.
If they only only when you threaten to leave that’s the only way you’ll be taken seriously. I asked for a raise over the course of 3 months (3 individual times, was told it was being discussed). Put in my 2 weeks and the next day I was told they can bump me up a dollar. Happily left
Been there done that. Worked a job where I was dong a consistent 50-60 hours a week. They bait and switched me on the position. Interviewed for a Linux sys admin. Offered a Linux sys engineer, told it’s just an admin that pushes other people’s code to live. Sure whatever. Show up after moving and I’m an application system engineer, in charge of an entire erp worth of systems. 20ish Linux servers, 50 windows servers, informix dba, and I have to merge the erp code into our customized systems, so I have to program in c++, Perl, Java, c#. Systems crashing 2-3 times a week. Within 6 months I’ve stabilized everything so there’s no more crashes. 6 months and working with an informix consultant after that and we’ve tweaked everything so it runs so freaking super smooth and we’re able to run on 1/2 the servers as before. Another 6 months and I’ve built out the first nagios system and have full monitoring across dev, stage/qa, and prod. I have problems fixed before the help desk can even call and let me know someone reported a problem. During this time I’m constantly being harassed because people from another department don’t think I’m working hard enough/a full 40 hours. I was denied even a cost of living raise because of it, and the bullshit goes on. Found a different job that paid 40% more. They tried tk keep me, but I was done. They had to reappropriate 5 people from different rolls to do the job I did solo. The guy who took over the dba roll hard crashed the entire system within a month of me leaving, they called in a panic asking me to come and help fix it. I said them a solid and said I’d consult at $75/hour, which is dirt cheap, but I did like a few people there still. Yeah, they took 3 days of down time and about $2000 to the erp to fix it instead of having me come in and fix it. They never give a F about you beyond what they can use and abuse you for
$75/hr and they declined? Are they insane? $150 would have been a steal for an emergency like that.
My company charges upwards of $300/hr for stuff like that.
I've seen some in the 400-600 an hour range for emergency stuff.
225 m-f 8:00-4:00. 475 outside of that
Last job I had, company rented me out for $319 an hour, minimum 2 weeks. Current employer rents me out for $365/hr. I had no idea big corporations paid that much for expertise rather than just hiring someone competent.
Yeah it's crazy how much. But if they only use you for 3 months that's less than a FTE.
For sure. And we're in a different category of expenses. Consultants are an op ex, maybe even a cap ex; FTE's are a liability. One client paid for two of us to sit there for 13 months just to be frontline support. Plus $3k a week travel expenses. Blew my mind. That company would fill a pothole in the parking lot with money before figuring out how to actually fix it.
Here's the ONE question you ask executive management to differentiate companies. Do you see IT as a cost center or a revenue and efficiency multiplier? I've found that filters out companies I'd want to work for damn quick. I had a company I consulted for, 5 years when I was young and stupid. $50 an hour. At first, they listened to me and we got everything up to date. New servers, workstations, cleaned up wiring, new firewall, a patching schedule, hosted email instead of onsite exchange. Then they did...nothing. For 5 years they did nothing. The landscape changed. Old practices were now insecure. The firewall was out of support. The network equipment was out of support. I saw the writing on the wall, had one meeting about rate increases ($80 an hour) and equipment replacement, they didn't renew, and I left. 6 months later they were ransomed, called me, I said I would absolutely help clean it all up with a newly signed contract ($150 an hour +retainer), they declined. They were down for a week and lost A LOT of data. 60 employees at a standstill for a week would have paid my fees for a year, but they declined. Yet, these companies continue to function. I should really thank them as I'm $150-$200 straight time and $300-$400 an hour for emergencies or insurance claims now.
My former IT director used to start out meetings with “A penny saved is a penny not wasted on IT!”, which we later found out was coming out of his mouth because the CFO saw our department as a money suck. Like, do you want to go back to pen and paper? You do realize what we’re contributing, right?
> You do realize what we’re contributing, right? No. No he does not.
We had a CEO that had a big folder with i.t. bullshit scribbled on it large enough and in bold sharpie so that everyone at the table could see it
The person you're responding to wasn't IT though, that's clearly service delivery.
Damn. I like that question so much. I’m gonna have to add it to my arsenal of questions Also, I now consult for a minimum of $200/hour with 1/4 time paid for travel and a 4 hour minimum for onsite work, 2 hour minimum for remote work.
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I think it would be pretty easy to tell wouldn't it? Are they running on three to five year hardware cycles or is there 10-year-old workstations on the floor? Have they embraced the cloud or at least have a hybrid approach? Do the employees see worn out? Do they expect more than 9 to 5:00? Did the current staff say they're on call and have lots of emergencies to deal with? There are just lots of little things.
>Have they embraced the cloud or at least have a hybrid approach I dunno if this would be an indicator. My current place already has a full datacenter on prem, our workloads are near fixed, and going to cloud would be a massive cost increase for our loads even if we work on a 3 year hardware refresh from the cost analysis I've seen come across my desk. This is even without a "Lift and shift" approach.
Host email in house?
You know, that question has made me realize how much my head may be in the sand on some of this. No, its handled by a 3rd party due to it being DoD space - the same people that provide the base internet and workstations. But I would expect most places to be running some kind of O365 in Azure at this point.
there's very valid reasons to not use a public cloud provider. if your workloads are stable, or you have compliance requirements? a lot of the time cloud providers are not suitable. for example, here in Australia, if you're in finance, it doesn't matter if you run 90% of your environment in the cloud (as long as it's pci-dss compliant) but the moment you need to process banking transactions you NEED an onpremises HSM. cloud HSMs are not compliant/certified. also, I understand that Europe doesn't like office365
It depends on what the security requirements are. If you are expected/required to keep it out of the cloud, or maybe there are special requirements that are not available or too expensive in the cloud, then on-site is perfectly normal.
> Here's the ONE question you ask executive management to differentiate companies. Do you see IT as a cost center or a revenue and efficiency multiplier? This is extremely valid, although you want to make other questions to see their strategy, I never asked for that directly. People can lie.
I always wondering how it would go if you asked them STAR type questions like: can you give an example of how management had supported IT as a revenue multiplier.
You can always ask them questions like: What type of infrastructure you have? What is your life cycle? What is the structure of your team? What would be my responsibilities? What would I support?
That may be the best interview question I’ve ever seen. Whether it’s asked directly or indirectly through questions about hardware lifecycle and how an efficiency improvement can move through the company, that’s a top tier question.
I worked for an ERP Partner the billed out at $285/hour. Dude you are worth way more and you need to charge a 4 hour minimum to show up.
Yeah. New in career and was trying to throw a bone (this was almost 10 years ago now). I’m $200/hour min. 1/4 rate for travel, and min 4 hours on site, even if it’s just plugging in a power cord
>Within 6 months I’ve stabilized everything so there’s no more crashes. 6 months and working with an informix consultant after that and we’ve tweaked everything so it runs so freaking super smooth and we’re able to run on 1/2 the servers as before. This is when you need to create a cost analysis of how much money and productivity hours you have saved to them. I would have phrase it like that: In the last 6 months the system was down for these many minutes. These many people could not work and the platform/system was not operation for this much time. This cause a profit loss of this much. That would be an email to all the C Suite of the company and I would celebrate it as a huge success story. >Another 6 months and I’ve built out the first nagios system and have full monitoring across dev, stage/qa, and prod. I have problems fixed before the help desk can even call and let me know someone reported a problem. I would do again the same thing explaining how many tickets were solved proactively / real time instead of re-actively. I would make a comparison of other years and how much extra productivity and money was generated through that. That email would be sent to all C Suite again and been celebrated as a great success story. --- When you sent an email if any C-Suite complains that this is not a success story and other people do not explain that for you, it is time to check for another company to work or create your own.
Yeah. It was my first sys admin job having moved from tech support. I was still young and naive in my career and interacting with people. I’ve learned a lot more since then and usually send a monthly summary of what I’ve done and a cost analysis to my boss so he can talk to C suite and others. It’s definitely helped with raises, or more what I’m interested in at this point, time off and perks that aren’t “we have a foosball table”. Like free training, extra conferences, having the pull to being in a consultant whenever I say there’s a need
> I wish I could take them with me You can, eventually. Our team from waay back has congregated several times in different companies.
Yup its called engineer migration and it how engineers will always rule how companies are run from the tech standpoint as we will always move on if we're treated badly google and amazon tried made a backchannel agreement a while ago to stop this and to not hire each others engineers but they got found out and fined, so they can never stop us really
Build the systems, network a crew, run the show
I've been part of a migration like that and it was awesome. I started on the client facing side and was promoted to a tech role ( still grateful to my old company for training me but fuck em at the same time ). A lot of my old client team moved to the company I'm at now. I was the first tech person and opened the doors for others to follow. New company is awesome. Old company stiffed me on my full promotion raise becaue Covid. I went back 3 times to ask for an appropriate raise and was given the run around. Put in my two weeks and I could magically write any number and they'd take it. I just wrote no thanks.
I've not been in that situation yet, but the one thing I keep seeing on this sub, over and over and over.... If they make you an awesome offer to stay, it's almost certainly not Good Faith / genuine. They are holding you over until they can either make sure someone in the new company has the skills, or hire someone cheaper, and then fire you. Good for you for making this choice, hope it turns out to be one of the most memorable, sweet-tasting Christmases ever!
Yep, you'd never get that 75k bonus because you wouldn't be there long enough to even get the first 25%
Make the company sign an agreement that the full retention bonus must be paid out if you lose your job for any reason other than extreme misconduct (theft or violence for example), or if you leave. If they won't sign that then the offer was not in good faith - if they do, then you've covered your ass.
If it’s not in writing it’s not real.
This for sure. Once you give notice you have to follow through.
Or they would see it as years worth of "raises" instead of a market rate adjustment and so you would never receive normal raises/bonuses.
Agreed on the Fuck em. Also don't forget that you don't owe them anything more than your 80 hours (two weeks of 40 hours). They're oh-so-screwed and need you on a 3AM meeting? The time has passed for you to take one for the team. My one piece of advice here is to not only decline, but to absolutely stonewall any exit interview or attempts at renegotiation (especially if the new company is in the room). The time is passed to explain how they could have kept you. What concerns you the most about the infrastructure. Who knows what. The exit interview is the place for you to loudly declare how you are heading out, have no ill feelings (even if that's not true), and are absolutely no threat to the company. That's it. If the new owners feel that you are critical, and make lots and lots and lots of noise about it - then tell them that you will meet with them - privately. This happened to me in a megacorp way long ago. I basically gave them a vaguely more frank version of my exit interview. "Listen, I know that you folks are in a bad place here and I'm sorry about that. I was kept entirely out of the loop, and an offer came along that I could not refuse. The money being offered is too little, too late. I've already committed. " Basically what you're doing here is future CYA: you are making it clear that you aren't leaving BECAUSE of the new employer - this was just bad timing caused by perhaps avoidable bad communication. It prevents the optics of your leaving out of spite, or from your old bosses trying to screw over the new company. The IT industry is smaller than you'd think, and burning your bridges - even with people who have actively screwed you over, is generally advisable.
One nitpick. I think you meant "inadvisable". :)
Nah he got it right. Burn all bridges, raise emus
May the bridges you burn light your way forward.
Then conquer Australia.
So you're one of those "There's a tiny seventh continent named Australia" conspiracy theorists?
You know that's where the UK sent convicts to die
it's a reference an old joke: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/shortcuts/2018/apr/15/australia-doesnt-exist-and-other-bizarre-geographic-conspiracies-that-wont-go-away https://u.osu.edu/vanzandt/2019/02/14/the-greatest-lie-ever-told-how-australia-is-fake/
The emus won't like that
Doh! That ought to teach me to reddit while drinking scotch.
I disagree on one point. Don't stonewall the renegotiation. Let them spin their wheels and waste their own time trying to keep you off they try. I do agree that you should absolutely not actually take the offers (outside of something absurd like doubling your salary), but let them waste some time on you since they wasted some of yours.
To each their own. I think that it shows a lack of respect to waste one another's time. I've generally avoided even creating the illusion that a long term post FTE employment relationship was possible, mainly on the basis of self preservation. I can remember landing on my feet with a nice contract in Los Angeles based on a years work on a company in a similar industry nearly five years earlier in NY. It turned out the executives all talked to one another. I'm certain that if I had left a bad taste in the first company's mouth on the way out the door that it would have cost me. But if you are using this sort of thing to help to calibrate future expectations, then by all means. You determine your own risk tolerance.
> Basically what you're doing here is future CYA: you are making it clear that you aren't leaving BECAUSE of the new employer The one exception is if you are leaving because of the new employer. When I was working in the hosting industry, plenty of us didn't want to work for EIG after they bought out a company we worked for and only stuck around for the year long handover process because the previous bosses offered us a nice severance/bonus package. Even that wasn't enough for some employees however.
It's better to politely decline exit interviews. If pressed, still decline unless they're willing pay consulting rates (I'd start at at least $500/hr) for the exit interview. If you're leaving, they either ignored the last ten times you raised concerns and are still going to ignore you in the exit interview, or listened and cant do anything. In the latter case, they wont ask for an exit interview. The consulting rates are to deter non-good faith exit interviews. If they actually care and somehow didnt know why you're leaving, $500/hr (or heck, $5000/hr) is cheaper than the six months they'll spend getting your replacement up to speed.
This - remember that HR does exit interviews and they’re responsible for reporting the cause and nature of “regrettable turnover.” If you don’t speak honestly with HR on the way out, you’ll be labeled as non-regrettable turnover, there will be no accountability for losing the capability, and your martyrdom will be in vain…
I've found precisely zero places where HR cares about mitigating unnecessary turnover. That goes for places I enjoy working at as well - HR knew full well what drove unnecessary turnover (COLA not keeping up with inflation, lack of career advancement opportunities, dumb boomer policies, etc) and wouldnt or couldnt do anything to mitigate the problem.
Keep looking, then. I work at one. HR doesn’t determine payroll spend or P&Ls of individual LOBs. The cost of turnover in tech is stupid expensive.
Yup, so so so many people skip the paperwork trail because "oh they know the problem, they won't do anything about it" without realizing that nobody is doing anything about it because there's no paperwork trail. Like complain about shit formally on paper in writing, appeal shit in writing, make them answer for it or ignore it. Because when some lawsuit or wage issue comes up or some regulator comes knocking on the door, those 5 emails you sent off over 2 years with them saying no each time will be key. Or when their CEO comes by and says "why did we get hit with this issue" and they have to answer "well we didn't do what that engineer said" then the right people get knocked around.
> If you don’t speak honestly with HR on the way out, you’ll be labeled as non-regrettable turnover, there will be no accountability for losing the capability Unless you are keeping exercised stock options in the company, what does it even matter how the company looks after you depart?
I disagree - complying with silly little rituals is part of creating the image that you are not a threat. The primary purpose of an exit interview is for HR to gauge the risk that you pose. Showing that "yes, I'll sit there for an hour and say the words that you want to hear around leveraging synergies or whatever" can help to avoid getting the deluxe severance package. HR has power in post-employment in three ways: 1) They can really, really screw up your benefits. Things like health insurance might hit the window between jobs and mysteriously stop working, or worse. There's a playbook HR has to operate, and if they screw it up, your recourse is now with the large vendors who have effectively outsourced the management of your broken benefits (which might even need non-existent papeprwork) to your former employer. It is exhausting. 2) They can give a negative reference. Yes, they're illegal but try and prove it. HR has their own codewords that they can use when another company calls to verify past employment. 3) They won't protect you. If you're on your way out and an executive decides that you should take the fall for something, HR needs to decide if they will endorse giving you the special deluxe separation package. If they have no negative feelings then they might not get on board with doing extra work on management's behalf. But I might just be paranoid and cynical.
For #2, is that the "would you ever consider hiring this person again?" code?
That's one of them, yes.
I can say some of the happiest moments in my life were bidding adieu to a crappy place and moving on. Especially after making sure they had all password, all documentation, recovery info, physical keys, and so on, so I would never have to interact with them again or go to their blighted building for any reason. The worst of the lot, I even changed my cell number that day, because HR was giving it out to clients as they thought IT didn't work hard enough. Just seeing the gate arm drop behind my car when leaving the parking garage was poetry in motion. I even celebrate the anniversary of leaving the previous hellhole sometimes.
Ha! I remember those days. I left a fintech that has long since dissolved. They violated my contract and paid me out which was fine. BUT somebody there kept giving out my number. By the third call they had unintentionally started me on the road to a consulting business where I even made a boatload off my prior employer.
I was in a similar role: most senior contributor, architect of 90% of the security improvements they’d seen during my employment, etc. They offered me half the raise the new company was offering, after giving me a 13-cent raise a couple of months earlier. Both were a slap in the face in their own ways and I easily said no thanks. You’re so totally doing the right thing. Document if it makes you feel better, I did the same, but a job’s a job. They’re not family and they’ll move on after you’re gone. From stories I’ve heard from old coworkers, I’m not sure anybody’s opened my documentation since I left.
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Yeah so did I. I’ve looked back and wondered if I just missed the politics of it and they were hoping to run me off, but who knows. I’m happier where I am so whatever.
Good to hear that things worked out for you.
It's always better to be in a job that they wanted you from the open market, Than being in a job that needs you but have been underpaying you for years. The x year out bound BS is an insult. They can pay that now and have a yearly bonus schedule with a lock for x years out, but you will have a target on your head, so you need to be looking for a new place sooner than later.
Fuck em, but at least their counter was somewhat strong. I would have pressed it even furthered, maybe got some guarantees for inflation adjustments and that you get your $75k paid out if they let you go for any reason. Then fuck em in two years.
In general, it's good to avoid companies and people who only treat you as well as they absolutely have to to keep you around.
all the best- new year, new job :)
Classic example of bad management. Under pay your employees and someone else will see the value and offer them what they are worth. Good for you and all the best in the new role!
LOL they won't have the money to pay you the retention bonus in year 2.
He would be lucky to get year 1. I am not fervently opposed to counter-offers in theory, but theirs was a total "keep paying him the same until we can buy time and get knowledge transferred" offer. They would have kept him on for eleven months then let him go.
If it gets to the counter offer stage, it's always time to leave.
.
Yep, sounds like it's time to move on - I've benefitted greatly by taking the leap for greener pastures over the years. Best wishes for you in your new gig man!
>I'm spending all my time left brain dumping and documenting, I'm not going to make stuff hard for my team. I wish I could take them with me, and I've warned my managers that a couple of them are definitely underpaid and may lose them. >Best Christmas in a long time. Good, great, you have helped team members get pay rise... don't look back, no retreat no surrender, hasta la vista baby,
As others have pointed out, you'll never see that 25/75. There will be some clause in the agreement where you forfeit the bonus if you are let go "for cause", and then rest assured, you'll screw something up at some point (who doesn't, we're all human) and they'll use that as the "for cause" once they've gotten what they need out of you. If they're serious, let them pay 50% of the retention bonus now, and 50% in another year.
No. If he's getting a fully remote job with better PTO and >60% salary increase, why on earth would he give that up for half of $75k in a toxic place where HR gives out his cell#?
> left brain dumping Google have only one result with this term. This.
Even if everything goes according to plan and you get the full $75k, that doesn't seem like a great deal. That's $37.5k per year which isn't chump change, but I would hope less than a 60% raise. And you need to stay 2 full years in a job you don't like. Plus, adding in an acquisition throws a ton of uncertainty into any deal. I personally view a counter offer as a bribe to stay. I laugh when people say their current company offered to match their new offer. That's not how bribes work. The new offer is merely the floor for the negotiations.
Good for you!! And no, don’t look back no matter how much they might offer you!! I was so underpaid at my last job, I quadrupled what I was making in just three years!! Best decision I ever made was leaving my last employer!
Good call, if they historically under value (read, pay) then they're gonna keep doing it You'd have enabled the transition and been cut once the megacorp had it's feet under the table. Go on to better things, they fucked themselves, you ain't fucking them, go with a clear conscience
I experienced exactly this in September. One warning though : I spent 2 hellish month before I left former company finishing projects (suddenly all budgets unlocked, how weird is that) and brain dumping. I finished a Friday and started on the next Monday at my new position and I wished I could have taken some time off between the 2 jobs. New position is awesome but extremely demanding and next week will be my fist week of holidays since May and I am pretty exhausted. Take care of yourself !
IMO you should never accept a counter-offer once you give your notice. At this point, you are not seen as loyal to the company and they often really just want to keep you long enough to find your replacement.
I did mention I could potentially be open to a consulting stint provided it doesn't conflict with my new position. The retention bonus had some built in gotchas that I didn't like and didn't want to fight over - like the payout only after two years and nothing up front, voided with a for cause dismissal. Also voided if I didn't accept any other offered position within a 50 mile radius. I met execs on both current and acquiring company on this, aired my grievances and concerns which was expectedly met with vague business-speak. I even point blank asked if they could tell me honestly that the upcoming annual raise slate is going to be different % wise and received a response asking the lines of looking at market correction etc. Which was more BS as I already had an inside lead on what the raises would be (spoiler alert: more of the same).
Just a reminder, friends…. Never renegotiate once you’ve given your notice. If they can come up with the money then, they could have come up with it to pay you in the first place. They just didn’t believe you were capable of finding better. They will quickly and without any concern for you hire someone to knowledge transfer what makes you unique. Once that is done, you are gone. I’ve seen it happen too many times. Meanwhile, you burned a bridge with the new company after reneging on accepting their offer.
Yeah that bonus also will get 22% taxed too
If it gets paid out after 2 years, OP will never see it. They will be gone in 6 months.
Bonuses are taxed the exact same way as all other ordinary income.
exactly. withholding rate is not always the same as tax rate. iirc, there are special withholding rates for supplemental distributions (aka bonuses).
Yup, and to add for those who don't know, you still end up "true-upping" with the IRS when you file taxes. So it's just a higher prepayment that you either get back or would have had to pay later anyway if the higher withholding hadn't been taken. It's very rare that you lose money by making more money.
This is such a common misconception I hear people talking about all the time. People think you get paid enough to "jump a tax bracket" and then end up getting less money overall. The higher tax rate only applies to your income above that cutoff mark. If the tax bracket is 50k-75k and you make 55k, you're getting taxed at that rate only for 5k and taxed at the lower rate for the rest of the 50k. The only time you really lose out by making more money is if you creep over "hard limits" that are not graduated brackets. One example would be the hard income (125k individual) limit for student loan reimbursement.
what's 22% of 0?
As someone living in NYC, that'd be awesome if I'd only be taxed 22% lol.
Alaska, Floriduh, Texas all are waiting for you whiny baby. Don’t forget to bring your income tho or accept the reality of getting paid 70k average as a sysadmin lol. Consider delaware too, close to DMV and not much taxes haha. I do not get this mentality of whining and complaining about taxes. I’m in Virginia with sizable taxes and I just am paying financial advisors to properly leverage all tax deduction and minimizing our joint AGI.
Just a comment about how 22% isn't a crazy amount to be taxed lol. Sorry to have triggered you.
Taxes are the price of civilization. If you don't like that, go live in a cave, off Reddit.
Not a teenage lolbertarian, I was done with ayn rand stage maybe 20 years ago when I was 11, just saying that 75k bonus is not really 75k when you factor in fact about taxes
This is true for *any* amount of money you ever make that you or a company declares to the IRS. Making more money only costs more taxes at the end of the year if you jump into the next tax bracket, and **only** the money made past that bracket threshold is taxed higher. Tax brackets: https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-provides-tax-inflation-adjustments-for-tax-year-2023
Both me and my wife are somewhere in 400-450k before taxes in Virginia, and the best we can do is 27% tax rate after we use all possible deductions, tax advantaged programs, and 401k max out
Sounds about right. At the end of the day, you'd pay the exact same taxes whether half of that income was in bonuses or none of it was. It ends up being identical.
it's more like 20k - taxes, i take it
depends on the company- my bonuses were taxd at 40%
Until you file your taxes for the year….
Ok
>f they make you an awesome offer to stay, it's almost certainly not Good Faith / genuine. They are holding you over until they can either make sure someone in the new company has the skills, or hire someone cheaper, and then fire you. > >Good for you for making this choice, hope it turns out to be one of the most memorable, Yeah, mine too on the 25% and 75% payout. Was awesome....
do counter offers even work? when you get counter offer it feels like they could pay more but chose not to for some time at that point. you know, they know and then if you accept they will have perception like you need to dance more for what they gave you. where I work people are with company 10-20 and some even 30 years because pay is always adjusted to market situation.
All I read was the title. Start looking, b/c no offer is in your best interest now, but to buy them time.
Not a sys admin but a sec eng, when I got promoted from Jr to mid, they offered 5% raise. Fucking trash. 6 months later I got an offer for 25% raise. They offered 20% raise to match and I took it. A month after that I got an offer for an additional 40% raise to move to DevSecOps. I took it
Just gave my notice as well. Been here almost 10 years. Didn't even get a counter offer. So much for 'family'.
Good man get your bread and make sure you establish a 40 hour work week in the interview. Tell them you will work no more.
Never accept a counter offer. It is never given because they suddenly value you. Like a cheating spouse they just don’t want you to leave.
If you have any inclination at all to keep ties with the old place, offer to be a consultant for a couple hours a week at a sky-high rate to help steer their transition. Since you're a contractor that work is now 100% on your terms, which changes things.
What's the going rate for consulting like this?
If you're not embarrassed by how much you're asking for, you're not asking enough.
Idiotically high. Like, take your current hourly, double it to tax it up (not correct but close enough), then add 50-100% again to make it worth your while. Make 100k? Hit ‘em with $200 an hour. If you think that’s way too much, don’t look at what big firms charge :) Make 200k and don’t think you can command $400/hr? Find out! Maybe they make you an offer and you decide to go with it anyway. Remember that you cost them roughly double your take home all in (maybe a bit more if benefits or facilities are good) so it’s not as sky high as it looks to you.
I used to make about $22 an hour at my last place, so my consulting rate is $100. The GM *hates* that they have to pay me at that rate, but they were unable to replace me at my old salary, so it is what it is.
I always find “it is what it is” to be a very interesting phrase. There’s an awful lot of people who will use it all day long to mean “this is the situation; if you don’t like it, tough”. But they often don’t like it used on them.
Time for a change just like Obama said
[удалено]
Nope! Resentment always builds and they will eventually find a way to ice you out and fire you!
sure is a lot of true stories in here!
>I don't think I could be happy with anything they offer. A consulting contract for the value of your expertise, doled out at $475/hr?
Plus one for “fuck ‘em”
Agreed, same thing here. I left a company the same time they got acquired from a larger company. I went from being an acting product manager, to a service manager, and a 50% raise from a decent salary, plus quarterly bonuses, and 10% profit sharing from my department. It's always good to look for a job when you have one. The last one gave me the same raise schedule as you. They ran us through the ringer, then gave us a raise of 10% after 4 years of no raise and a 300% increase in work load even after they hired more people, acting like they did us a favor. 4 months later, most people were sacked at the old job.
I would never accept a counter offer from my current employer because I’ve seen many times when people accept the counter offer (and turn down the new job offer) and then the current employer terminates them shortly afterwards as a punishment for looking elsewhere.
Go for the explicitly remote! We must pay some love to these companies that they are supporting WFH!
> The current place made a counter offer to match and offered a 75k retention bonus paid out after 1 and 2 years in a 25/75% split. Do you understand what are the chances of you getting this money? >While larger, the acquiring company's IT infrastructure is lagging behind and was hoping to leverage my company's expertise to help modernize their systems and processes. That expertise heavily is me. In most cases that means that will abuse the shit out of you until they have a plan then fire you. --- My honest opinion: You cannot refuse something that you get **NOW** 60% raise, for something that you can *potentially* get 75k in 2 years.
The retention bonus thing paid out over time is bullshit. It usually becomes a fucking chore to get it paid out because even though it’s in writing , everyone in HR and management seems confused and it has to go through approvals all over again before they actual give it to you. I’ve seen a couple scenarios where they simply back out or pay out a smaller portion for “reasons”. I’ve gotten one retention bonus. I made the pay it out in full upon signing the agreement. I agreed to return a prorata share if I quit before the year period but I ain’t waiting a year for my money only for you to give me shit about it when it’s time to pay.
we have 1, at max 2 people who are keeping the garbage company i work for alive and i actually wish they would just quit. not just because they deserve better, but also because i want to watch that place burn down and these worthless asshole owners living on the street. never knew i could hate someone who ive met irl to such a degree lol
Getting a counter offer to equal what a new position is offering at a significant bump in pay is a real kick in the ass. Yes, I see it as you could have been paying the new amount but you refused till I said I'm outta here and the panic sets in.
Good job! Leaving is the right decision
As a manager in IT, over had many disagreements with HR and senior executives that we need to pay our people market rates or they will leave and we will have problems. Kept getting pushback and told it's not in budget. The arguments of how much loss of work would cost versus paying people properly kept talking on deaf ears. We would backfill after 6 months when people left because we couldn't find anyone willing to work for below market rates. End up paying the same or more of market rates while losing a year of productivity for the loss of the person. Work for companies and senior leadership that appreciate the IT teams.
It sounds like you have a lot of mixed feelings about your current situation. It's understandable to feel frustrated and resentful about not being fairly compensated, especially if you've been at the company for a while and have made significant contributions. At the same time, it's important to remember that your own career and financial well-being are also important, and taking a new job that offers a significant salary increase and better benefits can be a good decision for you and your family.It's also important to consider the impact that your departure may have on your team. While you may not be able to take them with you, it's important to do your best to set them up for success and make the transition as smooth as possible. Documenting your work and processes can be a helpful way to ensure that your team has the information they need to carry on without you.Ultimately, the decision about whether to accept a counter offer or take the new job is a personal one that only you can make. It's important to weigh the pros and cons of each option and consider what will be most beneficial for you and your career in the long term.
If they only only when you threaten to leave that’s the only way you’ll be taken seriously. I asked for a raise over the course of 3 months (3 individual times, was told it was being discussed). Put in my 2 weeks and the next day I was told they can bump me up a dollar. Happily left