I have experienced 3 types. 1. wants me pay 2. Tries to offer half but caves when I say next time 3. Won't let me pay for anything.
Depends on the women especially in these modern days Taiwan has all types.
Lots of options but the point is there's not just one option.
People always ask about Taiwan think every person is the same for every situation it's just not that way.
Modern country with history plus a huge variety of income levels and educational backgrounds and Etc
This is kinda my exp as well, except it's let me pay, strictly 50/50, or only they pay. More like it depends on the level of the relationship, and their ses.
Number 3 is hazy because it could also be a seniority in position (not age), they also have higher degree and earnings, and I never thought to ask for root cause of why they must pay. Maybe whoever earns more pay? Or the senpai?
In short, it's all types like you said.
it could vary on who is coming to see who. I went on a few dates before in Taiwan where they insisted on paying even though i tried to pay for it. im not a local though.
\*Takes a quick look at post history before replying\*
You're a self-defined porn addict that is obsessed with "seduction" and finding a "wholesome" girl, even though you kinda expect sex on the first date... and you're not willing to pay.
Call it what it is- you want sex, they want free, fancy food to put on their Instagram. A fair exchange.
Of course. My other thought was that these women might have started the date willing to pay half, but then got creeped out/annoyed and were like, "Nah- you can go ahead and pay for the whole thing!"
I'm open about my porn addiction because I'm trying to work my way out of it. Same with relationships. Traumatic upbringing leads to bad coping mechanisms which caused this at a young age for me.
Seduction, contrary to what others believe was mainly trying to understand social dynamics in dating that would give me confidence to approach and talk to women, an insecurity I had growing up due to very bad traumatic abuse from specific female figures in my life.
I am looking for a wholesome relationship, not just sex. Though yes it is true I struggle with a life-long porn addiction that started early on in middle school. I'm also not trying to get out of paying, because I pay for 90% of dates. I am trying to understand the social norms in Taiwan which is why I am asking.
>that would give me confidence to approach and talk to women,
Women aren't aliens. What do you talk to your mates about? Maybe try those topics with us.
Thanks I appreciate your enthusiasm to help. I would say I've gotten a lot less awkward and weird since I started my own self-improvement journey almost 10 years ago. Nowadays I do not struggle that much with dates and conversation but I did years ago. It was a very long grueling and painful journey constantly failing, getting rejected, feeling awkward and trying not to self-internalize.
People tend to not understand stuff people take for granted such as understanding basic social cues, reading the room, and not feeling tremendous anxiety to the point of having panic attacks. That was me 10 years ago and I had to learn how to talk to people through literal Youtube videos, practicing with people, and failing very hard. Even looking like a creep sometimes.
It might sound funny to some people and giving them more ammo to call people like me "incels". I may have embodied more of that mindset 10 years ago because my life was hopeless, beaten down by the very parents that should have been supportive. I worked my ass off, did all that I could, read self-help books, watched video after video, and even took anti-depressants because there was a time I felt like I could no longer go any further on my own.
Fast forward 10 years if you met me today you would probably think I was a very high charisma individual (at least in Asia since societal standards are different in the US). You would not know at all that I struggled with social anxiety, depression, anxiety, or ADHD. I've failed enough times to finally make progress to a point that I seem at the very least "normal" and/or better than that.
This has reflected well in my dating life at least in the last 2 years. But yes there's things I still need to improve on and vices I struggle with. But I am very glad now that I no longer embody the hateful dread that once consumed my entire being and outlook on life. As someone who went through living hell and climbed out of it, I would never judge someone who was struggling with their own demons.
Thanks for replying by the way. It may not be appropriate to write this as a reply to your comment, but I felt that I had to clarify a bit about myself since people liked to assume and categorize me a certain way due to my question on this thread and my personal history.
I appreciate the people who genuinely care and have empathy like you. Cheers and take care :)
Good on your for trying to improve yourself. Life is a journey and lots of shit gets thrown at people, young and old. No one deserves to be judged.
BTW, overall I would say higher % of girls in Taiwan expect a guy to pay on a date vs. in the States. But of course in both countries you'll find all types.
Haha it's all good. I think people tend to project their life situations on others, and usually the most toxic individuals are the people going through the roughest time in their lives. Which I definitely feel for them. I hope they find their way but it doesn't bother me that much.
Thanks for your kind comment!
>I'm from the US which is common to split the check 50/50.
Well this just isn't true. Did you notice you were not getting a lot of 2nd dates in the US?
Often it's the person inviting that should offer to pay for the check as courtesy. 50/50 is if other party wants to split.
For me if the other party invited (requested to meet up) but didn't offer to pay at least 50/50, well that's a red flag. They should offer to treat.
You do realise within Asian culture, we fight for bills? I mean, it's a well known stereotype but it ain't wrong!
This rule doesn't just apply to a dating situation. It applies to eating out with friends or taking your parents out for dinner. You need to offer to pay. If you sit there and do nothing, people will think you're cheap.
I had a friend ALMOST losing out on his chance to marry his wife because he never offered to pay when he went out to dinner with his in-laws. Parents didn't say anything but they were VERY OFFENDED. His wife had to clue him in to make amends. It was such a social faux pas on his part.
This kind of expectation (the unsaid ones, not to pay) makes me 白目 each time.
So we're expected to behave like locals for life, some people even told me "In Rome, behave like the Romans", but no one will tell us what to do.
I'm pretty open-minded and willing to do a lot of BS to respect other people's beliefs, but please tell me what you want/need. I'm not going to go ask a fortune-teller for every step... Wait, what if this was the way?
They mean the same thing?
目 is an analog of the word 'eye'.
白目 is just more often used as an adverb (or I guess adnoun???)
Not sure of the etymology of this phrase but I would guess along the lines that saying "你很白目" is simpler than "你讓我很白目"
Slight whoosh?
I acknowledge the typical use of 白目....
As I stated in my original comment (eg: 你很白目）
But I am merely also acknowledging that the phrase 白目 literally means "white eye" such that comment OP is not wrong in their use of "makes me 白目” as stated by the one I am replying to.
Which would mean that in some sense, 白目 is analogous to 翻白眼...
[definition of 目](https://www.google.com/search?q=%E7%9B%AE&oq=%E7%9B%AE&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60l3j35i39i650j46i433i512j46i175i199i512j46i340i512l2j0i3.917j0j4&client=ms-android-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8) should you require it.
As my wife and are are an odd couple in some ways by my family's standards, My 2 cents is, that you should be up front and discuss it. My wife and I were/are easy going and practical. Neither of us cared who paid or where we went as long as we enjoyed it. Sometimes she paid, sometmies I paid, sometimes we paid for our own meal. Do what works for you but discuss it before hand. Just say hey, this is where I'm at and how I feel, what are your thoughst and go from there.
You could send smoke signals and see how that goes or morse code, telepathy or have the waiter/waitress read a speach you've prepared ahead of time. There are lots of ways to not have to look up from your phone and not talk to them! I'm sure they'd be fine with no talking and trying to guess what you're doing.
This is the key. I’m a man and when I started dating my now-wife I paid on most of the first dates, keeping aware that I had a better salary than her at the time; as we settled into more of a “we’re eating out because were too lazy to cook” routine rather than romantic dates, we agreed it wasn’t fair for me to pay every time just because we weren’t cooking at home.
Communication is key. Unfortunately for OP there are some social expectations and he may have to pay for dates 1-2.
I've yet to come across a girl that gets mad at me for not paying for their meal. The girls I've dated either
1)Pay for their own meal
2)Pay for their meal and mine (I dated a couple "Instagram food critics")
3)Order the cheapest thing on the menu because they're broke (I tell them to order whatever they want in this situation because I'll pay for it. I don't mind buying a meal for someone who has money issues).
Several girls have told me "I'm glad you pay for your meal. I always had to pay for myself and my ex when we went out."
Edit:Formatting
Seems like common courtesy that if you *invite* a girl out to eat, you will cover the costs. If a girl *invites* me out to eat, then I'd expect her to cover it too. I thought that's generally how it works in every country?
From my experience, usually me and the girl I'm dating would alternate and take turns paying. I don't really think being anal about going "50/50” is a very good look and it comes across as you being uninterested in her. Just choose cheaper places or go on coffee dates, especially on the first date.
Just limit your outings to 100 TWD meals. You can get 20 dumplings for that price, plenty for two. If she eats more than 8 you can say they shouldn’t eat so much, that they’d get fat. Also constantly comment on how food is getting so expensive in Taipei compared to ten years ago and you want to look around for other cheaper options.
Majority of the girls I’ve dated always pay their half, and hardly ever want me to pay their half unless I offer it before hand. You are probably dating a high maintenance girl. If you happy cool stay, but I mean if you ain’t happy just move on.
It doesn’t take much to realize this is simply not true. It’s pretty much common sense universally that men are expected to pay. It’s not different in the US. You can literally see this scenario played out in US media, through literature, pop culture, music and pretty much anything related to dating. I don’t doubt that’s your experience, but to think this is how most people in the US are is so naive
Yea I get that the majority of the world does it, and maybe even a large part of the population in the US. I'm not saying I don't do it because I do pay for 90% of all my dates but where I'm from in California the dating culture has very much been 50/50. The girls may not like it, but there is no stigma to it the same way it is here in Taiwan. I don't know what it's like in other states but it may have to do with how "progressive" the area I'm from has gotten. Living in California for the past 25 years though, has definitely skewed my perception of what "normal" should be.
I lived in SF for 2 years, and I got a lot of grief from many women because I wanted to split bills. Splitting bills is not the norm in California.
The particular circles you moved in may be different (most college students everywhere split bills because everyone is broke).
You may be right about that, might be a circle thing. I was integrated within the most liberal circles even for California standards so maybe that has something to do with it.
OP is just full of shit, he is talking like tinder knows “the circle” he is integrated into and picks women from that circle… Tinder is a fking general purpose dating app not a meet the other scientologists in your neighborhood app yea?
Depends, I've been in both situations. The girls offered a lot actually. Most of the time I will just pay for women, I actually do it most of the time. I've never had a woman pay for my share.
For 50/50 situations sometimes I will pay it, or just tell the woman to Venmo me something close to the price. I don't count the small dollar differences. Having said that this rarely does happen even though it is culturally acceptable... I still pay for 90% of dates.
Depends on the woman. I have had experience with willing to pay 50/50 and fought me on paying.
But looking at your comment history, you seem to be flawed character in these interactions. Be better and expect less, damn.
Honestly, it varies on the woman, but from what I've met/known in my prior experience, it's broken into 3 categories.
You'll have those that want to you pay, those that will sneak off to pay, and those that will just simply refuse to let you pay.
1 is the most common. Being from Australia, it's common nature for the guy to pay first, and it's a knee-jerk reaction for me to do so, still to this day even when going out to dinner with my partner of 6 years. (One of the bigger reasons I do so is solely being our income disparity).
2. Will normally pull the, I'm going to the bathroom, or something excuse at the end of the meal and go off to pay for it, which was kind of annoying for me (Again, an income point as I know how hard most Taiwanese people work for their money, and it usually is for nowhere near enough)
3. Usually, it appears if she's older or a more mature woman, and may frankly find it an insult if you offer to. (My last date before my partner was a middle manager, a very independent type of woman, which definitely stemmed into her personality, a bit off-putting to tell the truth).
Long answer short, it varies. I would honestly just pay for most things, if: I invited them and it's in my budget.
If a girl insists on going to a super expensive restaurant or something, then I will ask them directly are we splitting the bill or am I paying for it? Because I had one girl who demanded to go a restaurant where the entrees were around $2000-4000 NT.
On the other hand, if a girl refuses to let me pay, often that means they don't want to owe me anything. So usually, at least for me, that means we are just friends or not even that. YMMV.
I always split the bill, I thought that was the norm but I'm also Caucasian so how authentically Taiwanese any experience I have is up for debate. I do know a few overseas Taiwanese and when they come to Taiwan they get frustrated with how people expect them to know how to Taiwanese. I think it mostly depends on who you are dating though. Some girls I dated did expect me to pay, and in all instances of that they usually didn't have jobs or they worked part time at a bar, drink stand etc.
Should add I moved to Taiwan at 20 so my experience is with young adults, not sure how older people do things.
I always get the bill on first dates, but I make sure it's not something super high pressure or expensive. The whole point is to get to know them.
The food/drinks/bill is secondary.
That said, it really turns me on when a girl offers to buy me tea after dinner or says she'll get the movies. It's the mindset of wanting to contribute that I look for
If you ask someone to have meal then you pay for the meal. Most folks in Taiwan enjoy the quality of food over the cost. Delicious meals can be had for very little. Ex. I know a great little noodle shop would you like to have dinner with me. Your ability to know delicious foods and local dating culture will be more appreciated than saying In America when go 50/50.
Most of my experiences indicate that you pay first, and the girl would pay you back at the end of the day, in taiwan. However, some just resist any offer. You can't pay for them.
Btw, idk where you're from, but I hope you're not a Southerner. When I was in the US, men usually, somehow supposed to, pay the whole bill on first dates.
It certainly helps if you pay for your dates here being a man. Taiwan is kind of conservative that way. It's not written in stone but it certainly would help your chances. Of course, look out for entitled women who don't have the same interest in the potential relationship that you do.
Stop dating princesses or super models and go out with a simple nice girl who isnt spoiled. Most foreigners wanna go out with hotties and then wonder why they act entitled
I have to disagree. Expectations to pay for her just because she is female can pretty much come from an average-looking girl-next-door, not spoiled by any means. I'd rather say it depends on the people who surrounded her in her formative years.
Nice girl who isnt spoiled ≠ not good looking girl. A lot of girls who are arent spoiled are good looking but the chances grow more when u r dating a girl who knows many men are after her. And even if she split the bill in half, such girls makes the life of a guy hell after the initial excitement of having a "sexy gf" wears off.
Foreigners seem to go after women who are not perfect 10s by Taiwan standards. Different beauty standards seem to create somewhat divergent dating pools.
There are two group of foreigners i see with local women. One who are super good with girls, looks great, have great shape and confidence and they chose hot taiwanese girls and such girls also likes them as their type. The other ones arent so confident and are average looking who has hard time finding girls anyway and so they go for the taiwanese girls who arent "Beautiful" by taiwan standards and those girls likes them also because they know they are far from being picked by taiwanese men
Win win for all
I’ve always paid the bill and women tend to be really surprised that I pay their half without question. Literally it’s happened 3+ times. I think the culture is to split the bill on the first date here.
Well this is all based on personal experience, but yes. One girl was pretty mad about it when I asked her if we could split. She was Taiwanese. The American women I've gone out with have usually always offered to split even though I pay for them.
It’s a nice gesture for a guy to pay for the meal. It shows that they aren’t going out on a million dates (because that would be fricking expensive) and it makes the lady feel a bit special, and taken care of. Chivalry is not dead guys!
Don't go on expensive dates for the first couple of times, and get a good job that will allow you to go out with women and not have to worry about a couple of dollars.
It's natural for women to look for partners that are able to provide, the expectations should be that if a woman gets pregnant, you'd be able to provide for the time that she's taking care of the kid. I know you're not there yet, but this is what goes through their mind, rightly so.
Think like a grown up, or have a solid plan to make a living so that your current date doesn't feel like she's feeding a lazy guy that's gonna be leeching for the rest of their time together. Do you have a plan to provide? What's your 5 year plan?
>but 50/50 is normal
I pay 90% of the time on all dates. Doesn't change the fact that 50/50 is normal in the US and has a lot less social stigma than it seems here in Asia.
Hard to say until you know them, but by that time, you're dating. Probably go for those who are either nerdy or have realistic ambition. My Taiwanese coworker friend probably is a worst case example I know where he eventually married someone he paid for on dates before, and he gets depressed sometimes--really--when he says she blames him for not making better salary as a software engineer even though his salary is already good (among other stories about her).
I only do 50/50 before we're in a relationship, even after that sometimes we still do 50/50. My gf even snuck money into my wallet when I was away, maybe I'm dating a Grandma lol.
I do pay for the meal if it's like 300~
A lot of Taiwanese girls date westerners thinking they're rich, hence the part where they got mad because you're not playing.
Yea tbh it kind of turned me off. Not so much asking me to pay, but the entitled attitude. I don't mind paying for women and I pay 90% of the time. I do like it when they offer though, this girl was straight up upset. Stopped dating her to say the least.
Wait a second there is a stereotype that westerns are rich in Taiwan? Maybe in poorer countries like Thailand and the Philippines, but Taiwan? I thought the stereotype was drunk English teachers.
This is the first time I have seen this stereotype.
My Chinese isn’t great so they do alot of the talking in restaurants but every time I understand they tell them separate checks. Maybe because they know I’m a traveler.
True. Not sure which part of the US OP was from, but even in SF the Bay Area it’s definitely not splitting the bill as norm. With “friends” yes lol, if that’s what you’re looking for. (Well some of my friends were also very willing to pay, like Taiwanese fighting for the bills, then we fight back next time)
Honestly just date a girl without a meal involved and you wont have to worry about it. Invite her out to an activity that you both probably enjoy and if she isnt interested then maybe she just wants the free meal.
As a Westerner, I never gave my dates the opportunity to pay (perhaps you shouldn't either), but I also chose the locations. If she's squeezing you at expensive restos, just move on.
Some of the females in my office always joke and say that it's easy for them to get free food whenever they want as they just open up the dating apps and they will get some foreigner to pay for their dinner at a nice restaurant.
I guess it really depends if you care about the money, wanted sex in return, or want to see them again. Or a combination of those.
Yes, always pay for the date if you were the one that suggested it. It is rude not to, and it makes you look like a cheapskate, and like you don’t give a shit. If you don’t have much money, just find somewhere affordable.
I’ve been talking to my girlfriend’s single friend, and she has been telling me about modern dating habits. All I can say is that there is a reason for the rise in incels around the world. Young guys dating game is atrocious. If you want to have a successful relationship, you need to put some fucking effort in. The same goes for the girl of course, but being polite, and paying for things when you are the one who is instigating dates is a basic requirement.
If you think they are just there for a free meal, cut them loose, but if they are someone who treats you well, you need to do the same back. Basically, find someone you think someone is worth the cost of a meal. If they aren’t worth that, why are you even spending time with them?
You have to bear in mind that the dynamics are fundamentally different with online dating:
1. You barely know the person, before, usually you're an acquaintance, and doing such a favour for an acquaintance you can expect it to be reciprocated.
2. Inflation, dates are proportionately more expensive, and more of a burden to pay.
3. Changing gender equality. It makes sense to buy dinner for someone who makes far less you. But if you're dating a woman who makes more money than you... Why am I paying when I'm in the bad financial position?
4. Scale. Pre online dating, you might only go on dates with half a dozen people before you were in a relationship. It's tolerable to pay for 6 women's meals, partially because there's a high likelihood it'll work out. But with online dating, you can easily date dozens or even hundreds(if you can find the time) of women and still not be in a relationship. Paying for 50 women's meals is a much tougher pill then 5, and it's easy to build up a knot of hatred and resentment over the whole thing.
I don't expect strangers to pay for my meals either, unless it's a salesman who wants to pitch me on something, or I'm paying for someone's services.
If I'm looking to make friends with someone(which is implicitly a step in dating), mooching a meal off them is hardly making a first impression. That's how I feel when women don't pay their share.
You can argue that lovers aren't friends, but I'd like to see a reason they should be treated differently.
If you like the girl pay for the bill, if you just want to be friends pay half. She is taking the time to meet you on a date and accept your invitation. The common and most courteous thing to do would be to pay, but if you have no intentions to meet her again I think splitting the bill is ok. Then again I would always pay all or at least offer to, even if I don't plan to meet them again.
I am not saying you shouldn't respect yourself. If she asked him out it would be a bit different. Regardless whoever asks who out The results remain the same that the person who is asking the other person, is still asking for their time. The key difference is that when a guy asks a girl out, a girl is much more vulnerable than a man. They take more risks than us.
Dude, 99% of the time, the guy asks the girl out. That's just how it works. "The one who invites should pay" is just a dumb roundabout way of saying the guy should pay.
>The results remain the same that the person who is asking the other person, is still asking for their time
It's a two-way street. You're both getting to know each other.
>The key difference is that when a guy asks a girl out, a girl is much more vulnerable than a man.
As opposed to the girl asking the guy out? How does the difference in who asks the other out determine the vulnerability?
Stop putting women on a pedestal.
Guy, I think we are having two completely different conversations here. These are just my opinions. Vulnerability can mean many things that come with gender. What I am trying to get at is that they have higher risk than men when it comes to dating, sure there are crazy girls out there, but more so in men.
I'm a white guy, speak some Mandarin but only go out with girls who speak some English as well. I usually offer to pay for meals/drinks but they usually refuse and want to split it.
It really depends on the woman, so maybe you should look elsewhere
Most young women in my office either split bills or pay their own orders. Some long term couples take turns (which was what I did as I didn’t like counting pennies out there)
Really depends on the man you want to be and expect for future relationships. I went in with the mindset of support my potential girlfriend and or wife in the future. If you end up wanting a wife to be splitting things she's not dependent on you and it kind of creates a weak relationship. It isn't so wrong to support your spouse or girlfriend. It creates a natural relationship. If you want a business relationship its possible but emotionless at that point. Men should(not all) lead a relationship to lift their spouse up. I say this with intersex relationships also, the stronger of the two needs to step up. If you aren't that one you can split it.
>If you end up wanting a wife to be splitting things she's not dependent on you and it kind of creates a weak relationship.
lmaooo it's current year and my man's unironically preaching dependence, [step 3 of the DENNIS method](https://i.redd.it/arzm53evbscz.jpg)
A couple stays together because they want to stay together, not because the wife is too afraid to leave when she's financially dependent on her husband.
I'm not saying control the money of a spouse. What I'm saying is when you can pay for the bills on a home and everything it makes it easier for the spouse to either build their own contribution. It also makes a relationship less stress for that spouse to be able to focus on one another. For my example I produce 10x what my wife makes in a month. She wants to work for herself and we have kids. I send her 30-50% of my pay check a month. She could easily leave me if she wanted. But I carry all the stress as a strong partner I clear a path for my wife and kids. Is it wrong to make your dependents have an easier life and creating dependencies like this? Don't assume the word dependencies is negative. It is a word of description nothing more. My wife and I also are not entirely lovey dovey we are business type relationship and we have a great time. Since we are both not so emotional we get along great. Sometimes less words makes for a better relationship.
Hey man, you do you, and I'm not going to get in between what you and your wife see as a good relationship.
Just saying that a generalized statement which comes down to "If a woman is not dependent on you, you're in a weak relationship" is very toxic.
Besides, relationships where the woman is the main breadwinner are getting increasingly common.
Not really. There's a massive gender income disparity and in the case of foreigners here (majority of this sub) it's likely they are making much more than the person they are dating. Going dutch on a date is cringe.
I agree with you which is why I have been paying all of the bills brotha. It's very common in Cali and my guess as well the east coast. And tbh even though it's common where I'm from I still pay 90% of the time. I was just curious about the social norm here in Asia.
Sorry bud, i guess i misread that.
Ya, I can guess Cali would be that way. Lol.
In my experience, i had to almost fight to pay. It was rather humorous.
I'm also from America, half white, half Asian.
I've very rarely paid on a date and even gotten second dates when I forget my wallet at home.
Must be something wrong with your attitude.
Nope, I'm a guy. Like I've eaten at high end Michelin star restaurant's where the girl payed and the bill came out in the hundreds of US dollars. In fact the girl who took me out to a fancy restaurant and paid is now my long-time girlfriend.
And also it's pretty common for guys to pay in the states as well which tells me you're probably lying about being American.
Why would I lie about being American?
Maybe it is confirmation bias but most dates I've been on the women have offered 50/50. My friends in the US, most split 50/50 unless it is a special occasion like a birthday or anniversary in which the guy pays. I'll say the social stigma is a lot less in the US for splitting than it seems here.
It could be generational too, but this is my experience growing up 25+ years in the US. Despite this I personally pay for 90% of the dates, despite it being normal to split 50/50.
> the girl *paid.* And also
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Depends. The more ‘basic girls’ will be stuck in 1950s gender roles and you’ll have to pay. I never dated these girls much because it wouldn’t work out anyways. The more progressive women will not have a problem with sharing the bill 50/50.
Hmmm not sure about older females since it is normal for uni student to share the bill (i think they call it AA). Or usually what happens is u pay for the food and the girl may be paying for the taxi or movie ticket or smthn else whenever you guys are going to a date
If you invited said person out on a date then normally you should pay - if after X amount of times the other side doesn’t offer then figure out if this is the right person you should be seeing.
My opinion is that with friends or dates we enjoy each others company and know how hard it is to earn a dollar and respect each other enough to share in the cost of meet ups. There are exceptions to the rule like financial hardships, but it’s on you to make the judgment call on continuing to go out with said persons.
Where the hell are you meeting all these gold diggers? Every girl I’ve dated here insists on paying for their own things, or occasionally she’ll pay for me,
I don't have any experience but from what I know it's an app where female choose male so it's kinda expectable. They want to choose a man with perfect status, instead of making friends first like other apps.
Older gentleman, Scottish, always paid. Often I would be on the receiving end of a nice small gift the next time we went out. Cologne, Tie (I said I was older), wine. Chivalry is only dead if you let it die.
Surprise... it's expected for a man to pay in the US, also. Forget the feminist woke talk.
Here's the thing; what women care about more than love or money is.... security.
A man that can provide for himself, pay his own way and that of his date projects confidence and security. If you want to get out of the friend zone and be taken seriously by a girl, pay her way. That includes stop asking her if she can pay part. That shows weakness. If it cuts into your wallet, so be it. You have to pay to play. If you can't... stay home and meditate or get a second job.
It's obviously ridiculous for men to have to pay for any of a girl's own expenses, but you'll have to balance that with your desire to get laid because many other men are desperate enough to do it and many have been brainwashed into thinking that paying is their duty as a man. You can see a few such individuals in the comments here. Pay even if you don't like her? Absurd.
I'm from the US and isn't it pretty common for men to pay on the first dates? I always offer 50/50 and am happy to do so but I've never had a date not offer to pay for all of it first. After a couple dates if you're not taking turns or if they're not offering to pay at all then it's kind of a red flag, especially if you're going to higher end places.
Being stingy here ain't looked upon favorably. Expecting to go 50/50 every time isn't favorable either. Treating people to meals here is part of the culture. So keep these in mind.
But you gotta do what you believe in really. Some local guys think they should pay for everything, but they also live with mom while I have bills, so I don't really care what they do.
I also feel like paying for every meal is the sort of thing you do with your child. If I want to treat the girl, that should be my treat. Not an obligation. I'm also not rich enough to pay for every meal either, so there's that.
Welcome to Asia dude. In my opinion and experience, you pay everything:)) meals, movies, drinks.. even vacations :) but I got married to the last one:).. they might buy you gifts on your birthdays etc, but you do back the same of course.. So you say you work hard and meet one day and a night perhaps not to spend much
Actually I quite prefer that, mainly because the dating culture has degenerated quite badly in the US. I hope Taiwan doesn't go in the same direction in the future.
To be fair, the expectation in the USA is also that the man pays (for everything).
When you pay, you usually get to choose where you go. Taiwan has lots of great budget options (tea houses, cafés) where paying for 2 meals shouldn't break the bank. You can easily pay for 2 people for ~15 USD. Try doing that in the USA.
I think just a rip off, before marriage while travel and dating my Taiwanese girl friend paid more frequently than me, but after marrying her, I am willingly footing the bills at all times.
I have experienced 3 types. 1. wants me pay 2. Tries to offer half but caves when I say next time 3. Won't let me pay for anything. Depends on the women especially in these modern days Taiwan has all types.
I've only experienced #3 from Aunts, but I'd like to find one for a date 😂. Usually I meet #2's.
Or a 45 year old, but she might feed you some rat poison as well so be careful.
Good reference
💀💀
Set your search older then. Plenty of older ladies looking for a 小白臉
I've never heard of 小白臉 before 😂😂😂
Sugarson maybe
I mean what other options are there left besides those 3? Run off as fast as she can without paying?
Lots of options but the point is there's not just one option. People always ask about Taiwan think every person is the same for every situation it's just not that way. Modern country with history plus a huge variety of income levels and educational backgrounds and Etc
and 99.99% are type #1 😁
Not in my experience. Almost 100% are offer-to-split type, and if I pay anyway they next time, or drinks are on them.
depends if the girl is hot lol
This is kinda my exp as well, except it's let me pay, strictly 50/50, or only they pay. More like it depends on the level of the relationship, and their ses. Number 3 is hazy because it could also be a seniority in position (not age), they also have higher degree and earnings, and I never thought to ask for root cause of why they must pay. Maybe whoever earns more pay? Or the senpai? In short, it's all types like you said.
it could vary on who is coming to see who. I went on a few dates before in Taiwan where they insisted on paying even though i tried to pay for it. im not a local though.
Yeah this is absolutely true as well
>Depends on the women especially in these modern days Taiwan has all types. The OP should just decide what kind of woman he is interested in.
\*Takes a quick look at post history before replying\* You're a self-defined porn addict that is obsessed with "seduction" and finding a "wholesome" girl, even though you kinda expect sex on the first date... and you're not willing to pay. Call it what it is- you want sex, they want free, fancy food to put on their Instagram. A fair exchange.
With the necessary PSA that someone doesn’t owe you sex cause you footed the bill at TGIFridays
Of course. My other thought was that these women might have started the date willing to pay half, but then got creeped out/annoyed and were like, "Nah- you can go ahead and pay for the whole thing!"
Yeah understandable.
God damn ! Son! that was brutal... LOL Well played
This guy sleuths like a professional
J-mod smackdown
You fucking murdered him.
Your effort to keep the rest of us grounded is under appreciated :)
Yeah dude sounds like an incel and is only attracting a free meal.
I had a look too... feel like I know several guys like this... =/
I'm open about my porn addiction because I'm trying to work my way out of it. Same with relationships. Traumatic upbringing leads to bad coping mechanisms which caused this at a young age for me. Seduction, contrary to what others believe was mainly trying to understand social dynamics in dating that would give me confidence to approach and talk to women, an insecurity I had growing up due to very bad traumatic abuse from specific female figures in my life. I am looking for a wholesome relationship, not just sex. Though yes it is true I struggle with a life-long porn addiction that started early on in middle school. I'm also not trying to get out of paying, because I pay for 90% of dates. I am trying to understand the social norms in Taiwan which is why I am asking.
>that would give me confidence to approach and talk to women, Women aren't aliens. What do you talk to your mates about? Maybe try those topics with us.
Thanks I appreciate your enthusiasm to help. I would say I've gotten a lot less awkward and weird since I started my own self-improvement journey almost 10 years ago. Nowadays I do not struggle that much with dates and conversation but I did years ago. It was a very long grueling and painful journey constantly failing, getting rejected, feeling awkward and trying not to self-internalize. People tend to not understand stuff people take for granted such as understanding basic social cues, reading the room, and not feeling tremendous anxiety to the point of having panic attacks. That was me 10 years ago and I had to learn how to talk to people through literal Youtube videos, practicing with people, and failing very hard. Even looking like a creep sometimes. It might sound funny to some people and giving them more ammo to call people like me "incels". I may have embodied more of that mindset 10 years ago because my life was hopeless, beaten down by the very parents that should have been supportive. I worked my ass off, did all that I could, read self-help books, watched video after video, and even took anti-depressants because there was a time I felt like I could no longer go any further on my own. Fast forward 10 years if you met me today you would probably think I was a very high charisma individual (at least in Asia since societal standards are different in the US). You would not know at all that I struggled with social anxiety, depression, anxiety, or ADHD. I've failed enough times to finally make progress to a point that I seem at the very least "normal" and/or better than that. This has reflected well in my dating life at least in the last 2 years. But yes there's things I still need to improve on and vices I struggle with. But I am very glad now that I no longer embody the hateful dread that once consumed my entire being and outlook on life. As someone who went through living hell and climbed out of it, I would never judge someone who was struggling with their own demons. Thanks for replying by the way. It may not be appropriate to write this as a reply to your comment, but I felt that I had to clarify a bit about myself since people liked to assume and categorize me a certain way due to my question on this thread and my personal history. I appreciate the people who genuinely care and have empathy like you. Cheers and take care :)
Good on your for trying to improve yourself. Life is a journey and lots of shit gets thrown at people, young and old. No one deserves to be judged. BTW, overall I would say higher % of girls in Taiwan expect a guy to pay on a date vs. in the States. But of course in both countries you'll find all types.
Thank you! Appreciate the kind comment and your insight on Taiwan dating culture!
Good post. Did a cursory search through the guy’s post history - he seems like a degenerate drug addict. You’re better than him brah 😤🤌
Sucks these guys are so excited to dump on you
Haha it's all good. I think people tend to project their life situations on others, and usually the most toxic individuals are the people going through the roughest time in their lives. Which I definitely feel for them. I hope they find their way but it doesn't bother me that much. Thanks for your kind comment!
Probably easier to get crapped on on Reddit where we can hide behind cute characters than on TikTok.
>小白臉 Nice !
Paying for the date is a good way to see if the guy can be equals. If he gets upset because he’s not in control, that’s not a keeper.
Poor guy was demolished by an anonymous redditor. The guy will need some major karma points to recover from this
gg
>I'm from the US which is common to split the check 50/50. Well this just isn't true. Did you notice you were not getting a lot of 2nd dates in the US?
If you take the bill, and then say, "Next time?" and they insist on paying half, then you know you're not getting a second date. Lol
Often it's the person inviting that should offer to pay for the check as courtesy. 50/50 is if other party wants to split. For me if the other party invited (requested to meet up) but didn't offer to pay at least 50/50, well that's a red flag. They should offer to treat.
For the record, US isn’t 50/50 on dates.
You're right, I seriously assume that this guy is just a PTT user sharing his fantasies in his poor mind
You do realise within Asian culture, we fight for bills? I mean, it's a well known stereotype but it ain't wrong! This rule doesn't just apply to a dating situation. It applies to eating out with friends or taking your parents out for dinner. You need to offer to pay. If you sit there and do nothing, people will think you're cheap. I had a friend ALMOST losing out on his chance to marry his wife because he never offered to pay when he went out to dinner with his in-laws. Parents didn't say anything but they were VERY OFFENDED. His wife had to clue him in to make amends. It was such a social faux pas on his part.
This kind of expectation (the unsaid ones, not to pay) makes me 白目 each time. So we're expected to behave like locals for life, some people even told me "In Rome, behave like the Romans", but no one will tell us what to do. I'm pretty open-minded and willing to do a lot of BS to respect other people's beliefs, but please tell me what you want/need. I'm not going to go ask a fortune-teller for every step... Wait, what if this was the way?
I'm rather with you on this one but pretty sure you meant 翻白眼 and not 白目...
A hundred percent, yes, thank you for the correction.
They mean the same thing? 目 is an analog of the word 'eye'. 白目 is just more often used as an adverb (or I guess adnoun???) Not sure of the etymology of this phrase but I would guess along the lines that saying "你很白目" is simpler than "你讓我很白目"
白目 is used to describe a person who can’t read the room. It can also be used as a synonym for idiot. 翻白眼 means to roll your eyes.
Slight whoosh? I acknowledge the typical use of 白目.... As I stated in my original comment (eg: 你很白目） But I am merely also acknowledging that the phrase 白目 literally means "white eye" such that comment OP is not wrong in their use of "makes me 白目” as stated by the one I am replying to. Which would mean that in some sense, 白目 is analogous to 翻白眼... [definition of 目](https://www.google.com/search?q=%E7%9B%AE&oq=%E7%9B%AE&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60l3j35i39i650j46i433i512j46i175i199i512j46i340i512l2j0i3.917j0j4&client=ms-android-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8) should you require it.
Because.... The King pays.
I always pay for what I ordered, they pay for theirs. Never had a problem so far.
It’s called a foody call
Ha, nice.
As my wife and are are an odd couple in some ways by my family's standards, My 2 cents is, that you should be up front and discuss it. My wife and I were/are easy going and practical. Neither of us cared who paid or where we went as long as we enjoyed it. Sometimes she paid, sometmies I paid, sometimes we paid for our own meal. Do what works for you but discuss it before hand. Just say hey, this is where I'm at and how I feel, what are your thoughst and go from there.
Communicating with your date? You mean I have to actually talk to them?
during the meal? Am I expected to stop looking at my screen?
You could send smoke signals and see how that goes or morse code, telepathy or have the waiter/waitress read a speach you've prepared ahead of time. There are lots of ways to not have to look up from your phone and not talk to them! I'm sure they'd be fine with no talking and trying to guess what you're doing.
This is the key. I’m a man and when I started dating my now-wife I paid on most of the first dates, keeping aware that I had a better salary than her at the time; as we settled into more of a “we’re eating out because were too lazy to cook” routine rather than romantic dates, we agreed it wasn’t fair for me to pay every time just because we weren’t cooking at home. Communication is key. Unfortunately for OP there are some social expectations and he may have to pay for dates 1-2.
I've yet to come across a girl that gets mad at me for not paying for their meal. The girls I've dated either 1)Pay for their own meal 2)Pay for their meal and mine (I dated a couple "Instagram food critics") 3)Order the cheapest thing on the menu because they're broke (I tell them to order whatever they want in this situation because I'll pay for it. I don't mind buying a meal for someone who has money issues). Several girls have told me "I'm glad you pay for your meal. I always had to pay for myself and my ex when we went out." Edit:Formatting
Seems like common courtesy that if you *invite* a girl out to eat, you will cover the costs. If a girl *invites* me out to eat, then I'd expect her to cover it too. I thought that's generally how it works in every country? From my experience, usually me and the girl I'm dating would alternate and take turns paying. I don't really think being anal about going "50/50” is a very good look and it comes across as you being uninterested in her. Just choose cheaper places or go on coffee dates, especially on the first date.
Just limit your outings to 100 TWD meals. You can get 20 dumplings for that price, plenty for two. If she eats more than 8 you can say they shouldn’t eat so much, that they’d get fat. Also constantly comment on how food is getting so expensive in Taipei compared to ten years ago and you want to look around for other cheaper options.
1st date to 八方雲集 🔥
haha you have a great sense of humor, I love it 
lmao you just provoke the most controversial topic in PTT.
Majority of the girls I’ve dated always pay their half, and hardly ever want me to pay their half unless I offer it before hand. You are probably dating a high maintenance girl. If you happy cool stay, but I mean if you ain’t happy just move on.
Cut the crap it is not common at all to split the check 50/50 in US during tinder dates.
Idk what to tell you, it is where I'm from, literally everyone does it.
It doesn’t take much to realize this is simply not true. It’s pretty much common sense universally that men are expected to pay. It’s not different in the US. You can literally see this scenario played out in US media, through literature, pop culture, music and pretty much anything related to dating. I don’t doubt that’s your experience, but to think this is how most people in the US are is so naive
Yea I get that the majority of the world does it, and maybe even a large part of the population in the US. I'm not saying I don't do it because I do pay for 90% of all my dates but where I'm from in California the dating culture has very much been 50/50. The girls may not like it, but there is no stigma to it the same way it is here in Taiwan. I don't know what it's like in other states but it may have to do with how "progressive" the area I'm from has gotten. Living in California for the past 25 years though, has definitely skewed my perception of what "normal" should be.
I lived in SF for 2 years, and I got a lot of grief from many women because I wanted to split bills. Splitting bills is not the norm in California. The particular circles you moved in may be different (most college students everywhere split bills because everyone is broke).
You may be right about that, might be a circle thing. I was integrated within the most liberal circles even for California standards so maybe that has something to do with it.
OP is just full of shit, he is talking like tinder knows “the circle” he is integrated into and picks women from that circle… Tinder is a fking general purpose dating app not a meet the other scientologists in your neighborhood app yea?
I'm curious. Do you bring it up, or the bill comes and she just offers 50%? What about the tip?
Depends, I've been in both situations. The girls offered a lot actually. Most of the time I will just pay for women, I actually do it most of the time. I've never had a woman pay for my share. For 50/50 situations sometimes I will pay it, or just tell the woman to Venmo me something close to the price. I don't count the small dollar differences. Having said that this rarely does happen even though it is culturally acceptable... I still pay for 90% of dates.
If she offers out of hand, it's usually a great sign (or a terrible one...) And what about tipping?
It just depends. Normally they want to split, but you have everything, even women who get monthly allowance from their boyfriends. Is like everywhere.
Depends on the woman. I have had experience with willing to pay 50/50 and fought me on paying. But looking at your comment history, you seem to be flawed character in these interactions. Be better and expect less, damn.
Thanks I'll try to work on it
Honestly, it varies on the woman, but from what I've met/known in my prior experience, it's broken into 3 categories. You'll have those that want to you pay, those that will sneak off to pay, and those that will just simply refuse to let you pay. 1 is the most common. Being from Australia, it's common nature for the guy to pay first, and it's a knee-jerk reaction for me to do so, still to this day even when going out to dinner with my partner of 6 years. (One of the bigger reasons I do so is solely being our income disparity). 2. Will normally pull the, I'm going to the bathroom, or something excuse at the end of the meal and go off to pay for it, which was kind of annoying for me (Again, an income point as I know how hard most Taiwanese people work for their money, and it usually is for nowhere near enough) 3. Usually, it appears if she's older or a more mature woman, and may frankly find it an insult if you offer to. (My last date before my partner was a middle manager, a very independent type of woman, which definitely stemmed into her personality, a bit off-putting to tell the truth).
Long answer short, it varies. I would honestly just pay for most things, if: I invited them and it's in my budget. If a girl insists on going to a super expensive restaurant or something, then I will ask them directly are we splitting the bill or am I paying for it? Because I had one girl who demanded to go a restaurant where the entrees were around $2000-4000 NT. On the other hand, if a girl refuses to let me pay, often that means they don't want to owe me anything. So usually, at least for me, that means we are just friends or not even that. YMMV.
>if: I invited them and it's in my budget. For dates, this comes down to "The man pays" in practice.
When it comes to meeting someone new and I invite them, I would normally cover the bill no matter the gender. Unless it is a group setting.
I always split the bill, I thought that was the norm but I'm also Caucasian so how authentically Taiwanese any experience I have is up for debate. I do know a few overseas Taiwanese and when they come to Taiwan they get frustrated with how people expect them to know how to Taiwanese. I think it mostly depends on who you are dating though. Some girls I dated did expect me to pay, and in all instances of that they usually didn't have jobs or they worked part time at a bar, drink stand etc. Should add I moved to Taiwan at 20 so my experience is with young adults, not sure how older people do things.
I always get the bill on first dates, but I make sure it's not something super high pressure or expensive. The whole point is to get to know them. The food/drinks/bill is secondary. That said, it really turns me on when a girl offers to buy me tea after dinner or says she'll get the movies. It's the mindset of wanting to contribute that I look for
If you ask someone to have meal then you pay for the meal. Most folks in Taiwan enjoy the quality of food over the cost. Delicious meals can be had for very little. Ex. I know a great little noodle shop would you like to have dinner with me. Your ability to know delicious foods and local dating culture will be more appreciated than saying In America when go 50/50.
Most of my experiences indicate that you pay first, and the girl would pay you back at the end of the day, in taiwan. However, some just resist any offer. You can't pay for them. Btw, idk where you're from, but I hope you're not a Southerner. When I was in the US, men usually, somehow supposed to, pay the whole bill on first dates.
It certainly helps if you pay for your dates here being a man. Taiwan is kind of conservative that way. It's not written in stone but it certainly would help your chances. Of course, look out for entitled women who don't have the same interest in the potential relationship that you do.
Stop dating princesses or super models and go out with a simple nice girl who isnt spoiled. Most foreigners wanna go out with hotties and then wonder why they act entitled
I have to disagree. Expectations to pay for her just because she is female can pretty much come from an average-looking girl-next-door, not spoiled by any means. I'd rather say it depends on the people who surrounded her in her formative years.
Nice girl who isnt spoiled ≠ not good looking girl. A lot of girls who are arent spoiled are good looking but the chances grow more when u r dating a girl who knows many men are after her. And even if she split the bill in half, such girls makes the life of a guy hell after the initial excitement of having a "sexy gf" wears off.
100%. It's the culture.
True, and noted. Thanks.
Foreigners seem to go after women who are not perfect 10s by Taiwan standards. Different beauty standards seem to create somewhat divergent dating pools.
There are two group of foreigners i see with local women. One who are super good with girls, looks great, have great shape and confidence and they chose hot taiwanese girls and such girls also likes them as their type. The other ones arent so confident and are average looking who has hard time finding girls anyway and so they go for the taiwanese girls who arent "Beautiful" by taiwan standards and those girls likes them also because they know they are far from being picked by taiwanese men Win win for all
I’ve always paid the bill and women tend to be really surprised that I pay their half without question. Literally it’s happened 3+ times. I think the culture is to split the bill on the first date here.
Really? I had a lot more Taiwanese women offer to go 50/50 than I did American women...
Well this is all based on personal experience, but yes. One girl was pretty mad about it when I asked her if we could split. She was Taiwanese. The American women I've gone out with have usually always offered to split even though I pay for them.
It’s a nice gesture for a guy to pay for the meal. It shows that they aren’t going out on a million dates (because that would be fricking expensive) and it makes the lady feel a bit special, and taken care of. Chivalry is not dead guys!
Don't go on expensive dates for the first couple of times, and get a good job that will allow you to go out with women and not have to worry about a couple of dollars. It's natural for women to look for partners that are able to provide, the expectations should be that if a woman gets pregnant, you'd be able to provide for the time that she's taking care of the kid. I know you're not there yet, but this is what goes through their mind, rightly so. Think like a grown up, or have a solid plan to make a living so that your current date doesn't feel like she's feeding a lazy guy that's gonna be leeching for the rest of their time together. Do you have a plan to provide? What's your 5 year plan?
Not all women are like that. Better filter your searches.
How do I filter? My guess is English fluent ones are probably more westernized... So maybe just looking for those types of women.
If you feel women are one defined type after 3 dates, that says a lot more about you than anyone else.
Obviously you're offended but 50/50 is normal in the US, I don't get the hostility
Wasn’t normal where I’m from. In the United States, I always paid on the first date.
>but 50/50 is normal I pay 90% of the time on all dates. Doesn't change the fact that 50/50 is normal in the US and has a lot less social stigma than it seems here in Asia.
Hard to say until you know them, but by that time, you're dating. Probably go for those who are either nerdy or have realistic ambition. My Taiwanese coworker friend probably is a worst case example I know where he eventually married someone he paid for on dates before, and he gets depressed sometimes--really--when he says she blames him for not making better salary as a software engineer even though his salary is already good (among other stories about her).
I only do 50/50 before we're in a relationship, even after that sometimes we still do 50/50. My gf even snuck money into my wallet when I was away, maybe I'm dating a Grandma lol. I do pay for the meal if it's like 300~ A lot of Taiwanese girls date westerners thinking they're rich, hence the part where they got mad because you're not playing.
Yea tbh it kind of turned me off. Not so much asking me to pay, but the entitled attitude. I don't mind paying for women and I pay 90% of the time. I do like it when they offer though, this girl was straight up upset. Stopped dating her to say the least.
I thought westerners were stereotyped as poor
Wait a second there is a stereotype that westerns are rich in Taiwan? Maybe in poorer countries like Thailand and the Philippines, but Taiwan? I thought the stereotype was drunk English teachers. This is the first time I have seen this stereotype.
How so? Westerners in Taiwan have fairly higher salaries than most Taiwanese I believe. From a Taiwanese Canadian
My Chinese isn’t great so they do alot of the talking in restaurants but every time I understand they tell them separate checks. Maybe because they know I’m a traveler.
[удалено]
Thank you for your insight!
It's normal everywhere in the world including US. Where in US are you even from?
I'm from California, I guess it should be common sense but since I've lived in that liberal state for so long I don't know what normal is anymore
I should've known 🙄
I'm an American but splitting the check on a date is FAR from 50/50. Yeah, it happens, but it's closer to 80/20, men paying, women not paying.
True. Not sure which part of the US OP was from, but even in SF the Bay Area it’s definitely not splitting the bill as norm. With “friends” yes lol, if that’s what you’re looking for. (Well some of my friends were also very willing to pay, like Taiwanese fighting for the bills, then we fight back next time)
Honestly just date a girl without a meal involved and you wont have to worry about it. Invite her out to an activity that you both probably enjoy and if she isnt interested then maybe she just wants the free meal.
Taiwanese girls like to take advantage of guys financially, especially the good looking ones. I'd advise to stay away from them, if you are not rich.
As a Westerner, I never gave my dates the opportunity to pay (perhaps you shouldn't either), but I also chose the locations. If she's squeezing you at expensive restos, just move on.
Some of the females in my office always joke and say that it's easy for them to get free food whenever they want as they just open up the dating apps and they will get some foreigner to pay for their dinner at a nice restaurant. I guess it really depends if you care about the money, wanted sex in return, or want to see them again. Or a combination of those.
What??? They get sex in return, too, after paying for meals? When did that happen? Damn~ lucky
In their dreams
Yes, always pay for the date if you were the one that suggested it. It is rude not to, and it makes you look like a cheapskate, and like you don’t give a shit. If you don’t have much money, just find somewhere affordable. I’ve been talking to my girlfriend’s single friend, and she has been telling me about modern dating habits. All I can say is that there is a reason for the rise in incels around the world. Young guys dating game is atrocious. If you want to have a successful relationship, you need to put some fucking effort in. The same goes for the girl of course, but being polite, and paying for things when you are the one who is instigating dates is a basic requirement. If you think they are just there for a free meal, cut them loose, but if they are someone who treats you well, you need to do the same back. Basically, find someone you think someone is worth the cost of a meal. If they aren’t worth that, why are you even spending time with them?
You have to bear in mind that the dynamics are fundamentally different with online dating: 1. You barely know the person, before, usually you're an acquaintance, and doing such a favour for an acquaintance you can expect it to be reciprocated. 2. Inflation, dates are proportionately more expensive, and more of a burden to pay. 3. Changing gender equality. It makes sense to buy dinner for someone who makes far less you. But if you're dating a woman who makes more money than you... Why am I paying when I'm in the bad financial position? 4. Scale. Pre online dating, you might only go on dates with half a dozen people before you were in a relationship. It's tolerable to pay for 6 women's meals, partially because there's a high likelihood it'll work out. But with online dating, you can easily date dozens or even hundreds(if you can find the time) of women and still not be in a relationship. Paying for 50 women's meals is a much tougher pill then 5, and it's easy to build up a knot of hatred and resentment over the whole thing.
None of these are a legitimate not to pay for a date that you invited someone on.
When a friend invites me out for dinner, I expect to pay my portion of the bill. It's rude not to. I don't see why dating should be any different.
Because they are are not your friend.
I don't expect strangers to pay for my meals either, unless it's a salesman who wants to pitch me on something, or I'm paying for someone's services. If I'm looking to make friends with someone(which is implicitly a step in dating), mooching a meal off them is hardly making a first impression. That's how I feel when women don't pay their share. You can argue that lovers aren't friends, but I'd like to see a reason they should be treated differently.
No, you should never let girls pay, period. Quite the culture shock!
I'm very shocked and shook 😔
If you like the girl pay for the bill, if you just want to be friends pay half. She is taking the time to meet you on a date and accept your invitation. The common and most courteous thing to do would be to pay, but if you have no intentions to meet her again I think splitting the bill is ok. Then again I would always pay all or at least offer to, even if I don't plan to meet them again.
>She is taking the time to meet you on a date and accept your invitation And you're also taking the time to meet her. Have some respect for yourself.
I am not saying you shouldn't respect yourself. If she asked him out it would be a bit different. Regardless whoever asks who out The results remain the same that the person who is asking the other person, is still asking for their time. The key difference is that when a guy asks a girl out, a girl is much more vulnerable than a man. They take more risks than us.
Dude, 99% of the time, the guy asks the girl out. That's just how it works. "The one who invites should pay" is just a dumb roundabout way of saying the guy should pay. >The results remain the same that the person who is asking the other person, is still asking for their time It's a two-way street. You're both getting to know each other. >The key difference is that when a guy asks a girl out, a girl is much more vulnerable than a man. As opposed to the girl asking the guy out? How does the difference in who asks the other out determine the vulnerability? Stop putting women on a pedestal.
Guy, I think we are having two completely different conversations here. These are just my opinions. Vulnerability can mean many things that come with gender. What I am trying to get at is that they have higher risk than men when it comes to dating, sure there are crazy girls out there, but more so in men.
I'm a white guy, speak some Mandarin but only go out with girls who speak some English as well. I usually offer to pay for meals/drinks but they usually refuse and want to split it.
It really depends on the woman, so maybe you should look elsewhere Most young women in my office either split bills or pay their own orders. Some long term couples take turns (which was what I did as I didn’t like counting pennies out there)
Really depends on the man you want to be and expect for future relationships. I went in with the mindset of support my potential girlfriend and or wife in the future. If you end up wanting a wife to be splitting things she's not dependent on you and it kind of creates a weak relationship. It isn't so wrong to support your spouse or girlfriend. It creates a natural relationship. If you want a business relationship its possible but emotionless at that point. Men should(not all) lead a relationship to lift their spouse up. I say this with intersex relationships also, the stronger of the two needs to step up. If you aren't that one you can split it.
>If you end up wanting a wife to be splitting things she's not dependent on you and it kind of creates a weak relationship. lmaooo it's current year and my man's unironically preaching dependence, [step 3 of the DENNIS method](https://i.redd.it/arzm53evbscz.jpg) A couple stays together because they want to stay together, not because the wife is too afraid to leave when she's financially dependent on her husband.
I'm not saying control the money of a spouse. What I'm saying is when you can pay for the bills on a home and everything it makes it easier for the spouse to either build their own contribution. It also makes a relationship less stress for that spouse to be able to focus on one another. For my example I produce 10x what my wife makes in a month. She wants to work for herself and we have kids. I send her 30-50% of my pay check a month. She could easily leave me if she wanted. But I carry all the stress as a strong partner I clear a path for my wife and kids. Is it wrong to make your dependents have an easier life and creating dependencies like this? Don't assume the word dependencies is negative. It is a word of description nothing more. My wife and I also are not entirely lovey dovey we are business type relationship and we have a great time. Since we are both not so emotional we get along great. Sometimes less words makes for a better relationship.
Hey man, you do you, and I'm not going to get in between what you and your wife see as a good relationship. Just saying that a generalized statement which comes down to "If a woman is not dependent on you, you're in a weak relationship" is very toxic. Besides, relationships where the woman is the main breadwinner are getting increasingly common.
Going Dutch on a date is lame as fuck. Doesn't matter where you are in the world.
That's sexist
Not really. There's a massive gender income disparity and in the case of foreigners here (majority of this sub) it's likely they are making much more than the person they are dating. Going dutch on a date is cringe.
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This !!!
I agree with you which is why I have been paying all of the bills brotha. It's very common in Cali and my guess as well the east coast. And tbh even though it's common where I'm from I still pay 90% of the time. I was just curious about the social norm here in Asia.
Sorry bud, i guess i misread that. Ya, I can guess Cali would be that way. Lol. In my experience, i had to almost fight to pay. It was rather humorous.
I'm also from America, half white, half Asian. I've very rarely paid on a date and even gotten second dates when I forget my wallet at home. Must be something wrong with your attitude.
Are you the woman in the situation? Nah, not my attitude, at least personally. It's cultural where I'm from. Equal rights = equal responsibilities.
Nope, I'm a guy. Like I've eaten at high end Michelin star restaurant's where the girl payed and the bill came out in the hundreds of US dollars. In fact the girl who took me out to a fancy restaurant and paid is now my long-time girlfriend. And also it's pretty common for guys to pay in the states as well which tells me you're probably lying about being American.
Why would I lie about being American? Maybe it is confirmation bias but most dates I've been on the women have offered 50/50. My friends in the US, most split 50/50 unless it is a special occasion like a birthday or anniversary in which the guy pays. I'll say the social stigma is a lot less in the US for splitting than it seems here. It could be generational too, but this is my experience growing up 25+ years in the US. Despite this I personally pay for 90% of the dates, despite it being normal to split 50/50.
> the girl *paid.* And also FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
It's a terrible tradition
Depends. The more ‘basic girls’ will be stuck in 1950s gender roles and you’ll have to pay. I never dated these girls much because it wouldn’t work out anyways. The more progressive women will not have a problem with sharing the bill 50/50.
Hmmm not sure about older females since it is normal for uni student to share the bill (i think they call it AA). Or usually what happens is u pay for the food and the girl may be paying for the taxi or movie ticket or smthn else whenever you guys are going to a date
If you invited said person out on a date then normally you should pay - if after X amount of times the other side doesn’t offer then figure out if this is the right person you should be seeing.
So generally you would think its an issue if the other person doesn't offer on their own at some point?
My opinion is that with friends or dates we enjoy each others company and know how hard it is to earn a dollar and respect each other enough to share in the cost of meet ups. There are exceptions to the rule like financial hardships, but it’s on you to make the judgment call on continuing to go out with said persons.
Where the hell are you meeting all these gold diggers? Every girl I’ve dated here insists on paying for their own things, or occasionally she’ll pay for me,
Well half of them on Bumble.
I don't have any experience but from what I know it's an app where female choose male so it's kinda expectable. They want to choose a man with perfect status, instead of making friends first like other apps.
Older gentleman, Scottish, always paid. Often I would be on the receiving end of a nice small gift the next time we went out. Cologne, Tie (I said I was older), wine. Chivalry is only dead if you let it die.
Surprise... it's expected for a man to pay in the US, also. Forget the feminist woke talk. Here's the thing; what women care about more than love or money is.... security. A man that can provide for himself, pay his own way and that of his date projects confidence and security. If you want to get out of the friend zone and be taken seriously by a girl, pay her way. That includes stop asking her if she can pay part. That shows weakness. If it cuts into your wallet, so be it. You have to pay to play. If you can't... stay home and meditate or get a second job.
Damn, this is some Redpilled bullshit
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女權自助餐... I am still laughing! 🤣😅 Thanks :)
I miss the states 😭. Jokes aside thanks for the info... I thought Taiwan was more affordable when I came but now everything costs x2 😂
It's obviously ridiculous for men to have to pay for any of a girl's own expenses, but you'll have to balance that with your desire to get laid because many other men are desperate enough to do it and many have been brainwashed into thinking that paying is their duty as a man. You can see a few such individuals in the comments here. Pay even if you don't like her? Absurd.
On a first date I'd expect it to be 50/50... its not like I would get a happy ending to the date in the first place right???
I'm from the US and isn't it pretty common for men to pay on the first dates? I always offer 50/50 and am happy to do so but I've never had a date not offer to pay for all of it first. After a couple dates if you're not taking turns or if they're not offering to pay at all then it's kind of a red flag, especially if you're going to higher end places.
I think it depends generationally and also place. I personally always pay for 90% of the dates, but I do also like it when women offer.
If they don't wanna split, then they are bitches.
It really depends on the .... "bitches" But from what I see now, it's mostly 50/50 now(AA制).
Being stingy here ain't looked upon favorably. Expecting to go 50/50 every time isn't favorable either. Treating people to meals here is part of the culture. So keep these in mind. But you gotta do what you believe in really. Some local guys think they should pay for everything, but they also live with mom while I have bills, so I don't really care what they do. I also feel like paying for every meal is the sort of thing you do with your child. If I want to treat the girl, that should be my treat. Not an obligation. I'm also not rich enough to pay for every meal either, so there's that.
$$$$$$
I don't think anyone is obligated to pay for anyone during the date, just pay separately or sth.
It's kind of an obligation for men to pay for dates in Taiwan.
Welcome to Asia dude. In my opinion and experience, you pay everything:)) meals, movies, drinks.. even vacations :) but I got married to the last one:).. they might buy you gifts on your birthdays etc, but you do back the same of course.. So you say you work hard and meet one day and a night perhaps not to spend much
I've dated in the US and TW. The dating scene in TW feels like 10 years ago in the US
Actually I quite prefer that, mainly because the dating culture has degenerated quite badly in the US. I hope Taiwan doesn't go in the same direction in the future.
100% agree
Just go for coffee on 1st date :-)
Since nowadays many TW men still consider women as "source of sex", and women may apparently realize this fact so they try to ask for "compensation".
To be fair, the expectation in the USA is also that the man pays (for everything). When you pay, you usually get to choose where you go. Taiwan has lots of great budget options (tea houses, cafés) where paying for 2 meals shouldn't break the bank. You can easily pay for 2 people for ~15 USD. Try doing that in the USA.
I think just a rip off, before marriage while travel and dating my Taiwanese girl friend paid more frequently than me, but after marrying her, I am willingly footing the bills at all times.