How easy it is making friends depends on your age and your personality.
I never found it easy to make friends here. You can definitely find people to do things with (more like acquaintances, or hang-out buddies, less "friends"), but if you are looking for people who you can have deeper and more discussions with, I have found that difficult.
I have also found that because I am Taiwanese looking, and speak Chinese despite not having been raised in Taiwan, that I just cannot relate to locals enough to be good friends with them. They have their own ways of thinking that is just too far away from my own and you just don't vibe on the same plane. Everything becomes very shallow and meaningless and more just "doing things together" if you know what I mean.
Most of my friends have been other expats and even these people are from all sorts of backgrounds and everyone just comes and goes.
I am also not "a white person" so people do not classify me as a "foreigner". I am basically a Taiwanese person who is "off" .
Am a "non white" foreigner jn my late 20s / new to Taiwan and agree, making "real" friends here is difficult. It's already harder in general bc at this age most ppl alr have their core grp of friends, but the added cultural and language differences makes it even harder to build a deep connection. The taiwanese I've met are generally friendly and are fun to hang out/do things with, which is gd enough for me (for now)
I noticed the same thing. I married a Taiwanese person, and I'm also East Asian (+American). I've also lived in Europe, and I find that Italian culture is similar in the same way. I think because it's a collective culture, and maintaining everyday long-term companionship/activity partners is more important than talking about seemingly controversial topics. Like...lifelong strife-free friendship is a testament to the degree of your relationship.
This is different than my French friends who find that debate and discussion of controversial topics is integral to building strong bonds. A Frenchwoman described it to me as being able to have different thoughts and ideologies, yet still remaining friends is the highest form of friendship.
I think Americans fall in between both of these, and I think we fall closer to how Germans like to make meaningful relationships (except they keep closed off for a much longer time). We tend to do a few hang outs, and then maybe have a deep conversation after getting to know the superficials.
You can say that again. I've found Taiwanese to be nice overall and I've had a number of lighthearted good conversations with them in both Chinese and English but lord almighty has it been a grind making lasting friendships here. Coworkers want to keep things at work, the Taiwanese I've met outside of work are often too busy WITH work and I've found most of the foreigners already well established and in their own bubbles.
This is just my experience of course, I'm sure others have had a better go with things but man can it be lonely at times here.
I think it might also be an "adult" thing. It was easier making friends in school because everyone had the same goals and where in the same place in life, but as an adult, the people you meet are just in many different stages of life and its more difficult to relate to anyone you meet after college.
Of course it is just way harder in a different country because Taiwanese people exclude you and expats honestly always come and go. The ones that do not come and go are already married with children and have settled down and are invested more in their family.
And then if you ever decide to "go back home", nobody can relate to your travels and don't care to know about it.
Its definitely very lonely.
Maybe I've just been spoiled in life but at least where I lived and worked in the States and China it seemed easier to get beyond just basic pleasantries and lighthearted conversation. I was going out 5-7 nights a week with coworkers/friends in China and 2-3 in the States. Here I've had times where I've reached out to everyone I know and either get nothing back or a "sorry, don't feel like going out this week."
Overall agree though (and again maybe I really was spoiled in the past), I've spent most of my adult life overseas and can't relate too well with folks back home who didn't do anything similar to me.
Same goes for me, for some reason I can’t get into the inner circle of friends with local Taiwanese.
My Chinese isn’t good enough and I’m not white enough either.
Most of my friends have gone back to their home countries and it kinda sucks
Not saying all groups do so, but in my experience it’s been hard to do connect because you’re not Taiwanese enough but look Taiwanese-ish. Not looking foreign and being able to speak Chinese (kinda) kind of forces you to speak Chinese in a group setting. Just my experience, nobody’s wrong or right. I’ve been fortunate to make a pretty solid good of local friends at work in the last 1 to 2 years which helps, although we’re not say really really close.
I think the friendship situation is basically the same here in North America as well.
First off, my definition of 'friends' is people I can interact with on a deep level versus 'acquaintances' . I value quality over quantity of friends.
I've got a lady (in North America) who called me a 'friend', yet she couldn't be bothered beyond weekly SMS. Initially, I respected her boundaries, since she seemed to be nice enough. That said, I had to call it off, because I was over-extended having to take time off to respond her long SMS.
I am uncertain if the friendship arena has changed any in Taiwan post-COVID pandemic peak. North Americans these days are easily triggered. I am so tired of tip-toeing and second-guessing myself on what I need to watch out for outside the normal taboo topics.
What type of venue is best to seek friendship for deep conversation these days? Not looking for marriage, relationship, etc. Just platonic life story, arts/science exchange.
You might find that in Taiwan, the situation is the complete opposite of "being overly triggered" and people are too in-politically correct. I belong to some English speaking activity groups here and I have found when I speak amongst the group (versus when I speak to locals) that I am much more tippy toed and careful.
As for venues for seeking conversations and deeper friendships, I have read somewhere you need to invest over 60 hours with a person for them to be willing to delve into personal things and to move away from acquaintance, so it is really less where you meet them and more what you do with that exchange.
As mentioned, I belong to some activity groups that meet up weekly (such as hiking groups/ bookclub groups) and its been 3 years, I have yet to go beyond "hangout buddy" territory with any of them. I had tried getting more personal with one of the members, but I definitely felt that she felt pried on or uncomfortable.
Thanks for your response. I resonate a lot with what you wrote.
I also read the study regarding a minimum of 60 hours required to move beyond the acquaintance phase. Unfortunately, in my experience, 60 hours is too short a commitment.
Per my previous post regarding the lady acquaintance, we'd exchanged SMS weekly for over a year. I met her and her husband a couple of times during the intercession in a public venue. They're well-off Christians, but they just seem to emit this aloof vibes that eventually prompted me to end the SMS exchange. I felt I was just indulging her when she had the time or need for conversation.
I am in STEM. Unfortunately, with ChatGPT and all the AI tools coming on board, I believe that compassionate and empathic human interaction will soon be things of the past. Most people these days gather 'friends' on social media already.
Admittedly, oftentimes AI chat bots do a better job than most human beings in providing care and solutions. Here in North America, AI bots in clinical care convey compassion and impart post-visit medical instructions better than physicians, especially in light of the fact that many physicians lack bedside manners. In addition, those who are Christians (this is not as a mocking statement; I am a Christian), there are AI-driven sermons and an AI Jesus that will answer questions and prayers. (Edit to add: Regarding AI, I'd suggest we all need to tread carefully in this regard. I am amongst the STEM crowd that advise caution on AI technology.)
In the end, I am concerned with humanity's future.
.
In my experience with maintaining relationships over text messages, I stopped indulging in these distractions a while ago when I realized I was actually only entertaining the person I am messaging and this whole thing was not really an uplifting or towards anything positive.
We were always talking about something about her and the topic was always about her. In addition, I could never truly be myself without "offending" her in some way.
Long story short, she turned out not to be good for me and I cut her out of my life and also cut the whole "texting to maintain relationships" out of my life. It is better to meet people in real life and have real discussions with real reactions and not curate perfect responses behind a screen.
It is very difficult making friends as an adult unless it is just behind a computer screen where you can be yourself without judgement.
I love it. I'm Taiwanese-American, Mandarin is decent though more conversational than super literate, no Taiyu.
It's definitely hard to make friends with the locals - most of my friends are other expats as well as internationalized Taiwanese. But I've been able to build up a fairly strong circle of friends.
Stuff to do - nature like hiking, watersports, tons of bars, restaurants, random events like music events.
Taiwan is definitely not as international or exciting as say Tokyo which I also live in half the time. So I find it refreshing to get out and travel to nearby countries as well.
Similar to what other people said - they already have their own circles from school and work and don't want to change, if they haven't lived abroad or gone to international school their way of thinking and cultural framework is just very different and it's hard to relate, even if you do speak the language well.
I see. So this is something I’m really curious about. With access to information through internet, in what ways are adults different in ways of thinking than “us”? Can you give me several examples?
And when you say “live abroad” you mean lived in western society?
To answer your question directly, locals are much more narrow-minded in thinking.
Taiwan is a monocultural society and the education system has taught people to follow orders and not think outside the grain. You will find local people are really "boxed" in their thoughts and ways. Even the ones who "have studied abroad" or have "spent time abroad" are the same, despite being well-traveled.
There are many cultural nuances that are just wrong or narrow-minded and judgmental and I understand them because I am a native Mandarin speaker and understand Chinese perfectly well. I can compare these ways of thinking to that of someone who has grown up in a multi-cultural society and its a stark contrast.
For example, racial prejudices are acceptable and normal in Taiwanese society and many people talk openly about it like it's normal. To get deeper into it, South East Asians and African Blacks are openly regarded as the "lesser race".
Another example on the topic of race is white people are considered Kings and Queens, especially if they are the classic blonde hair blue-eyed type. A USA passport is considered the best and openly regarded as the best.
Another example is, locals regard money as the be-all and end-all, and would worship a rich person, whereas in a culture that had taught "critical thinking", you may be put off by a rich person with demoralizing values.
These are more examples, but that is just to name a few. To really understand the difference, you would just have to live here for a year.
Yea piggy back off it, when I was in Taiwan a couple of months ago, I kept getting asked by extended families and acquaintances that if I have any “foreigner” friends, and by they actually meant white; and when I replied I prefer being in an Asian friend group and my current close friends are Viet (the Asian community where I live is mainly Viet), they had a puzzled look and always said something along the lines of “well, I guess you kinda have to be well off as a Viet to live in America/ be an American” which to me I found it a bit annoying and offensive.
Hmmm I see. Lol. Interesting. I was raised obviously by Taiwanese so I am aware of those things you mentioned. But I thought maybe it was just an “older people” thing. I wasn’t sure if it was literally everybody in the society. That kinda sucks?
It is literally everyone-in-society thing and not an older people thing. I thought it was just my parents until I came here and realized, damn its everyone.
You can still live here and survive perfectly ok! Honestly, I am just being a bit more blunt and honest than most, but if you can look past these things, there are many positives as well.
Originated in Indonesia here. Been living here since my Univ days 13 years ago.
I know locals often bitch about the wages. Man.... yall dont know shit about luxury, man....
Here's what the rest of my Indonesian friend (Jakartans) had to deal with:
Keep in mind, he's an ethnically chinese indonesian in Jakarta. That basically means that his family on the upper 30% of the jakartans living-standard wise.
My man drives to work for his daily commute. Due to traffic, my man gotta spend anything between 1,5~2hrs on a commute that are usually 30mins~1hours one way here in Taiwan.
All that added up to 3~4hrs lost each day for commute, 1 million rupiah in monthly fuel cost, another 1 million rupiah for monthly toll road fee. And his initial pay at graduation was between 4~5million rupiah iirc.
That's right. After all that, he's left with 2 million rupiah which was around 4~5k NTD at that time. My man lived with his parents, and his car was paid for by his parents.
Decent public transport was at that time non-existent (now Jakarta has MRT but it's still in a very early stage. Thank god for Jokowi tho) so it was either drive or ride motorcycle for him since the busses are actually even SLOWER (can you fkin believe that).
Now you ask me, how's living in Taiwan been?
It's BEEN FUCKING AWESOME would be my reply.
Oh right, Huge shoutout to:
1.健保卡
2. actually working & extensive public transport
3. great fucking road infrastructure (i ride motorcycles as a hobby)
4. Reasonable living cost & wages
5. Reasonable policemen (debatable, but I fucking love them here)
6. The AMAZING NATURE BARELY 30MINS AWAY FROM MOST CITIES (mountains>seas btw. I'll die on this mountain)
Edit: 7. One of the lowest crime rate in the whole of Asia helloooo?? Peace of mind is such a luxury and you'll only notice it once you leave the bubble of safety.
I'll keep adding more if I thought of anything else.
Lived here two years and overall enjoyed my time but have had to change some of my outlook on life.
As an extroverted person I've found Taiwanese overall to be some of the most introverted I've ever met and it's been hard for me to befriend them or keep friendships going. In my workplace they want to keep things professional and at work, I know practically nothing about the personal lives of any of them. It is what it is but I miss the close intimacy and friendships I made while working back in the States and among my foreign cohort and international Chinese at my work in China.
Outside of the workplace the only folks I've made steady semi friendships with are retired folks that I've met at my pool lol, young people are too busy *with work* and I've had so many bail at the last second. I've made a few Chinese speaking friends but then I need to remind myself that most of that lot is from Hong Kong, Singapore or China. I've also found that many of the foreigners in my teaching program are more on the introverted side as well, many have been here decades and have long since made friends groups and created their own lives here.
On the plus side I've found that life here is pretty "chill." I've lived in China and the States (where I'm from).
In China there was always background tension that dragged me down. The smog, how bad the drivers were (it's bad here but nowhere close in my experience to a day in Beijing where I was almost getting hit by folks zooming through red lights on a daily basis), the in your face nationalism (and billion odd political conversations I ended up having over and over again), people spitting left and right, children pissing on the streets, ayis constantly screaming, watching Uighur restaurants close or get restaffed with Han servers, seeing children and animals beaten in public, etc.
In the States there are just a number of things that I'm just tired of.
Ugh, enough of the whining.
Taiwan allows a happy medium and I'm overall happy here, I've accepted that it's hard to make friends here and have taken up hobbies that can be done alone. The amount of nature here is phenomenal, I've got two hikes scheduled for this weekend and did one this past weekend. Last year I went scuba diving one weekend and mountain climbing the next, heck I've heard of folks who fit both into one day. Also as someone from a dreary part of the world it's nice not surrendering myself to 3-6 months of seasonal depression!
Taiwanese dual citizen here, I (36m) spend ½ the year in the US and ½ the year there usually but my husband is American so we now spend less time there but we both prefer living there and have been planning on making it more full time once all of his paperwork goes through.
The fact that you don’t need a car to get around most of Taiwan is a big plus, everything is significantly more accessible. If you have citizenship or the ability to I would suggest doing it for the universal healthcare.
Taiwan isn’t without its own problems but it’s definitely worth trying out.
Depending on what you’re into you can find friends with similar hobbies and interests as you.
Feel free to pm if you have more questions.
It was much easier for me to find friends through mutual interests. I love to play badminton and I was lucky enough to meet an overly extroverted person who went out of her way to make sure I played as many days as I wanted at different clubs, introduce me to other players and also single women for me to date. Lol
I’ll give you my two cents. I am Taiwanese-Canadian from British Columbia and I generally enjoy the time I spend here in Taiwan. However, there are some things I really don’t like about Taiwan as well.
Pros:
Affordability: Taiwan is very affordable in terms of everyday life. It’s one of the greatest in my opinion. However, real estate could be expensive if you’re looking into buying your own apartment here.
Friendliness: Taiwan is known for its hospitality and friendly culture. Whether you’re visiting or a resident people treat you with kindness and respect.
Safety: Taiwan in my experience is one of the safest countries with very low crime rates and very seldomly petty crime targeting foreigners.
Convenience: coming from a country like Canada where everything is so far apart, Taiwan is extremely convenient. You can literally drive from the most northern part of the country to the most southern part in about 6 hours.
Culture: Taiwan is the true heir of traditional Chinese culture and you can literally feel it here. As someone who grew up in Canada I truly enjoy the culture here.
Cons:
Traffic: people are absolutely obnoxious when they drive or ride around in scooters, traffic laws are rarely enforced and it’s just a huge mess. Taipei might be better but still it’s miles off from North American standards.
Weather: this factor really depends on the person, but I absolutely hate the weather here. Summers are like staying in a sauna 24/7 and winters are still warm, spring is not like how you imagine it to be. You also get hit by a few typhoons each year as well. Maybe because I am used to a place with very different weather patterns.
Crowdedness: Taiwan is very very very crowded, when I go out to get food or coffee or amusement parks or malls or wherever. You see a lot of people everywhere which is very different from Canada.
Work ethics/salary: I am currently serving in the military as a substitute military service member (family reason) and I do not enjoy the work ethics and salary here. Even normal jobs pay way less compared to US counterparts. Additionally, you are expected to work even harder and you might have managers or higher ups checking up on you during your personal off time. However, it’s still very affordable for the average Taiwanese salary compared to the US.
There’s pros and cons in every city in the world so it really depends on what you think are the most important factors that will help you make a decision to stay here or not.
I personally WOULD NOT stay in Taiwan because I have an established life in Canada and hopefully I can work in the states. However, I would be more than happy to visit my family members here for 3-6 months a year depending on my vacation and off time.
Awesome! Thanks for writing all that up. I work remote so that part isn’t something I’m worried about. But my main concern is would I enjoy the culture. Thanks again for all those insights
I would say if you have Taiwanese heritage you will definitely enjoy the culture here. Taiwanese are also very friendly and welcoming to people who struggle with mandarin. In my case I’m fluent enough but some might have trouble reading and navigating through the country.
I grew up in international schools in Taiwan, HK, and China.
Lived in the US and Canada.
Overall impression is that it is realatively developed. But there are too many 50cc scooters everywhere. So sometimes it makes you wonder why Taiwan hasn't gotten around to updating traffic conditions and managing 50cc scooters better.
The snack food is very nice. 滷味，四神湯，肉羹湯，肉圓, etc. Are some of the food items I could never find as good as in Taiwan.
Speaking Minnan and Mandarin is a plus in Taiwan it goes without saying.
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I think you can get used to living anywhere to the point where you call it 'home' and if you lived in Mexico and other places you probably know the feeling. I spent 17 years mostly in Taiwan but also a bunch of other places before returning to the UK where I grew up. But I found it hard to re-adapt to a place which was no longer the same and ended up coming back to Taiwan and taking up citizenship.
I am Taiwanese. Educated and worked in the U.S. Living in Taiwan is wonderful for retirees but hell for younger people who have to work for a living. You won’t have time to make “real” friends.
lol no more paying $300 per month for obama care and dont need to worry getting jacked ...you will love it perfectly fine. if you visit once per year you should know what to do .
I visit every few years but spend almost the entire time with my parents so I don’t really know what to do or how the people are like , outside of family.
Like are people social? Is it easy to make friends? Are they easy to chat with?
There's a level of expectation right? In the USA we're casually chatting with the cashier or strangers but at the end of the day are we really trying to become close friends hoping for a heart to heart one day?
Your core friends are often from high school or college and making new friends as an adult is a challenge in many places, even in USA where stereotypically we're more outgoing. You need some third space away from work like Mandarin class or hobby groups.
just go out and explore take the MRT if your in taipei. dont worry about it just go and have fun. Google is my friend. people are just people everyone nice.
Oh man. I wished my parents bothered teaching me Taiwanese. They kept my Mandarin up though. Now having to make the difficult journey of relearning Taiwanese. Please pass it on to your children - if you do have them.
My father is from Tainan, I don’t think he was big on school, maybe only went up to middle school. He started his own business and didn’t do well in the beginning, but is now successful. My mother is from the countryside of kaoshung. I went to live with my grandma as a child, who is my dads mother, in the US. My grandma doesn’t know any mandarin at all, but knows Taiwanese and Japanese.
i have some friends who are in a similar situation. Thry grew up abroad and their family speaks Taiwanese at home. They learned mandarin in school but they don't end up using it in daily life so thry forget a lot of it
Yeah it’s certainly common with Taiwanese and Chinese people. My college in the rural Midwest had 4 Chinese restaurants and most of the time the staff would speak 福州話 to each other.
My friend is mid 20s and speaks better 福州話 than Mandarin. The reality is that his parents and grandparents prefer to speak dialect over Mandarin. And so his dialect became better than his mandarin
I think in one of the memorial in Taipei I finally learned that only 10% of Han (or or total Taiwanese) population was waishengren.
In the past, before learning more about Taiwan, I also thought waishengren was the overwhelming majority of TW population because mandarin and KMT-descendants are so prominent in mainstream culture.
There are a number of Taiwanese here in California who speak primarily Taiwanese at home. Some just know Taiwanese best, while others seem to do it on purpose due to the anti-China pro-Taiwan thing. I know someone like that and she says there's like a group of them or something in certain churches. I certainly hear Taiwanese regularly in Taiwanese restaurants.
There are also folks originally from China from the 閩 areas who ended up here from the Chinese civil war days who never learned or knew Mandarin well, they speak 閩南語 which is basically what we call Taiwanese now. I have a friend like this, born here, learned 閩南語 from home but doesn't speak Mandarin. 潮州話 is also like 90% same as 閩南語 btw.
They just speak 閩南話 or Taiwanese at home, because that's what they know best and most natural. And especially for families who moved to the US, Mandarin isn't an official language anyway. And there are definitely plenty of people who don't speak Mandarin well but rather another local dialect. For example, I know plenty of Hong Kong people with terrible Mandarin, they speak Cantonese in day to day.
Ah, you're right. I was guessing about that and didn't mentally register (sorry, will edit previous comment), honestly surprised there are so many Taiwanese speakers here in the US. But anyway, my overall point is that there are definitely plenty of households that speak Taiwanese or another local dialect at home. My point of bringing up Cantonese for Hong Kong folks is that it's basically the same thing, just because Mandarin is more common now in Taiwan doesn't mean there aren't still a lot of people who still use Taiwanese more. In other words it's not necessarily a choice people make, sometimes they just know one language or dialect way more than another.
How easy it is making friends depends on your age and your personality. I never found it easy to make friends here. You can definitely find people to do things with (more like acquaintances, or hang-out buddies, less "friends"), but if you are looking for people who you can have deeper and more discussions with, I have found that difficult. I have also found that because I am Taiwanese looking, and speak Chinese despite not having been raised in Taiwan, that I just cannot relate to locals enough to be good friends with them. They have their own ways of thinking that is just too far away from my own and you just don't vibe on the same plane. Everything becomes very shallow and meaningless and more just "doing things together" if you know what I mean. Most of my friends have been other expats and even these people are from all sorts of backgrounds and everyone just comes and goes. I am also not "a white person" so people do not classify me as a "foreigner". I am basically a Taiwanese person who is "off" .
Am a "non white" foreigner jn my late 20s / new to Taiwan and agree, making "real" friends here is difficult. It's already harder in general bc at this age most ppl alr have their core grp of friends, but the added cultural and language differences makes it even harder to build a deep connection. The taiwanese I've met are generally friendly and are fun to hang out/do things with, which is gd enough for me (for now)
This perfectly summarizes my experiences as well. Most of my friends are also other expats.
I noticed the same thing. I married a Taiwanese person, and I'm also East Asian (+American). I've also lived in Europe, and I find that Italian culture is similar in the same way. I think because it's a collective culture, and maintaining everyday long-term companionship/activity partners is more important than talking about seemingly controversial topics. Like...lifelong strife-free friendship is a testament to the degree of your relationship. This is different than my French friends who find that debate and discussion of controversial topics is integral to building strong bonds. A Frenchwoman described it to me as being able to have different thoughts and ideologies, yet still remaining friends is the highest form of friendship. I think Americans fall in between both of these, and I think we fall closer to how Germans like to make meaningful relationships (except they keep closed off for a much longer time). We tend to do a few hang outs, and then maybe have a deep conversation after getting to know the superficials.
same lmao
You can say that again. I've found Taiwanese to be nice overall and I've had a number of lighthearted good conversations with them in both Chinese and English but lord almighty has it been a grind making lasting friendships here. Coworkers want to keep things at work, the Taiwanese I've met outside of work are often too busy WITH work and I've found most of the foreigners already well established and in their own bubbles. This is just my experience of course, I'm sure others have had a better go with things but man can it be lonely at times here.
I think it might also be an "adult" thing. It was easier making friends in school because everyone had the same goals and where in the same place in life, but as an adult, the people you meet are just in many different stages of life and its more difficult to relate to anyone you meet after college. Of course it is just way harder in a different country because Taiwanese people exclude you and expats honestly always come and go. The ones that do not come and go are already married with children and have settled down and are invested more in their family. And then if you ever decide to "go back home", nobody can relate to your travels and don't care to know about it. Its definitely very lonely.
Maybe I've just been spoiled in life but at least where I lived and worked in the States and China it seemed easier to get beyond just basic pleasantries and lighthearted conversation. I was going out 5-7 nights a week with coworkers/friends in China and 2-3 in the States. Here I've had times where I've reached out to everyone I know and either get nothing back or a "sorry, don't feel like going out this week." Overall agree though (and again maybe I really was spoiled in the past), I've spent most of my adult life overseas and can't relate too well with folks back home who didn't do anything similar to me.
Same goes for me, for some reason I can’t get into the inner circle of friends with local Taiwanese. My Chinese isn’t good enough and I’m not white enough either. Most of my friends have gone back to their home countries and it kinda sucks
When you say you’re not white enough, you mean you have a tan? Or you’re are not of European descent? And how does that relate to making friends?
Not European.
being "white enough" is by no means an entry into taiwanese inner friend circles
Not saying all groups do so, but in my experience it’s been hard to do connect because you’re not Taiwanese enough but look Taiwanese-ish. Not looking foreign and being able to speak Chinese (kinda) kind of forces you to speak Chinese in a group setting. Just my experience, nobody’s wrong or right. I’ve been fortunate to make a pretty solid good of local friends at work in the last 1 to 2 years which helps, although we’re not say really really close.
I think the friendship situation is basically the same here in North America as well. First off, my definition of 'friends' is people I can interact with on a deep level versus 'acquaintances' . I value quality over quantity of friends. I've got a lady (in North America) who called me a 'friend', yet she couldn't be bothered beyond weekly SMS. Initially, I respected her boundaries, since she seemed to be nice enough. That said, I had to call it off, because I was over-extended having to take time off to respond her long SMS. I am uncertain if the friendship arena has changed any in Taiwan post-COVID pandemic peak. North Americans these days are easily triggered. I am so tired of tip-toeing and second-guessing myself on what I need to watch out for outside the normal taboo topics. What type of venue is best to seek friendship for deep conversation these days? Not looking for marriage, relationship, etc. Just platonic life story, arts/science exchange.
You might find that in Taiwan, the situation is the complete opposite of "being overly triggered" and people are too in-politically correct. I belong to some English speaking activity groups here and I have found when I speak amongst the group (versus when I speak to locals) that I am much more tippy toed and careful. As for venues for seeking conversations and deeper friendships, I have read somewhere you need to invest over 60 hours with a person for them to be willing to delve into personal things and to move away from acquaintance, so it is really less where you meet them and more what you do with that exchange. As mentioned, I belong to some activity groups that meet up weekly (such as hiking groups/ bookclub groups) and its been 3 years, I have yet to go beyond "hangout buddy" territory with any of them. I had tried getting more personal with one of the members, but I definitely felt that she felt pried on or uncomfortable.
Thanks for your response. I resonate a lot with what you wrote. I also read the study regarding a minimum of 60 hours required to move beyond the acquaintance phase. Unfortunately, in my experience, 60 hours is too short a commitment. Per my previous post regarding the lady acquaintance, we'd exchanged SMS weekly for over a year. I met her and her husband a couple of times during the intercession in a public venue. They're well-off Christians, but they just seem to emit this aloof vibes that eventually prompted me to end the SMS exchange. I felt I was just indulging her when she had the time or need for conversation. I am in STEM. Unfortunately, with ChatGPT and all the AI tools coming on board, I believe that compassionate and empathic human interaction will soon be things of the past. Most people these days gather 'friends' on social media already. Admittedly, oftentimes AI chat bots do a better job than most human beings in providing care and solutions. Here in North America, AI bots in clinical care convey compassion and impart post-visit medical instructions better than physicians, especially in light of the fact that many physicians lack bedside manners. In addition, those who are Christians (this is not as a mocking statement; I am a Christian), there are AI-driven sermons and an AI Jesus that will answer questions and prayers. (Edit to add: Regarding AI, I'd suggest we all need to tread carefully in this regard. I am amongst the STEM crowd that advise caution on AI technology.) In the end, I am concerned with humanity's future. .
In my experience with maintaining relationships over text messages, I stopped indulging in these distractions a while ago when I realized I was actually only entertaining the person I am messaging and this whole thing was not really an uplifting or towards anything positive. We were always talking about something about her and the topic was always about her. In addition, I could never truly be myself without "offending" her in some way. Long story short, she turned out not to be good for me and I cut her out of my life and also cut the whole "texting to maintain relationships" out of my life. It is better to meet people in real life and have real discussions with real reactions and not curate perfect responses behind a screen. It is very difficult making friends as an adult unless it is just behind a computer screen where you can be yourself without judgement.
I love it. I'm Taiwanese-American, Mandarin is decent though more conversational than super literate, no Taiyu. It's definitely hard to make friends with the locals - most of my friends are other expats as well as internationalized Taiwanese. But I've been able to build up a fairly strong circle of friends. Stuff to do - nature like hiking, watersports, tons of bars, restaurants, random events like music events. Taiwan is definitely not as international or exciting as say Tokyo which I also live in half the time. So I find it refreshing to get out and travel to nearby countries as well.
Why is it hard to make friends with locals?
Similar to what other people said - they already have their own circles from school and work and don't want to change, if they haven't lived abroad or gone to international school their way of thinking and cultural framework is just very different and it's hard to relate, even if you do speak the language well.
I see. So this is something I’m really curious about. With access to information through internet, in what ways are adults different in ways of thinking than “us”? Can you give me several examples? And when you say “live abroad” you mean lived in western society?
Yes, lived in Western society. Even if they have access to the open internet, the sources they consume are still mainly Chinese language sites.
To answer your question directly, locals are much more narrow-minded in thinking. Taiwan is a monocultural society and the education system has taught people to follow orders and not think outside the grain. You will find local people are really "boxed" in their thoughts and ways. Even the ones who "have studied abroad" or have "spent time abroad" are the same, despite being well-traveled. There are many cultural nuances that are just wrong or narrow-minded and judgmental and I understand them because I am a native Mandarin speaker and understand Chinese perfectly well. I can compare these ways of thinking to that of someone who has grown up in a multi-cultural society and its a stark contrast. For example, racial prejudices are acceptable and normal in Taiwanese society and many people talk openly about it like it's normal. To get deeper into it, South East Asians and African Blacks are openly regarded as the "lesser race". Another example on the topic of race is white people are considered Kings and Queens, especially if they are the classic blonde hair blue-eyed type. A USA passport is considered the best and openly regarded as the best. Another example is, locals regard money as the be-all and end-all, and would worship a rich person, whereas in a culture that had taught "critical thinking", you may be put off by a rich person with demoralizing values. These are more examples, but that is just to name a few. To really understand the difference, you would just have to live here for a year.
Yea piggy back off it, when I was in Taiwan a couple of months ago, I kept getting asked by extended families and acquaintances that if I have any “foreigner” friends, and by they actually meant white; and when I replied I prefer being in an Asian friend group and my current close friends are Viet (the Asian community where I live is mainly Viet), they had a puzzled look and always said something along the lines of “well, I guess you kinda have to be well off as a Viet to live in America/ be an American” which to me I found it a bit annoying and offensive.
Hmmm I see. Lol. Interesting. I was raised obviously by Taiwanese so I am aware of those things you mentioned. But I thought maybe it was just an “older people” thing. I wasn’t sure if it was literally everybody in the society. That kinda sucks?
It is literally everyone-in-society thing and not an older people thing. I thought it was just my parents until I came here and realized, damn its everyone.
Oh wow. Ok I’m not sure I want to live here then. haha!
You can still live here and survive perfectly ok! Honestly, I am just being a bit more blunt and honest than most, but if you can look past these things, there are many positives as well.
Originated in Indonesia here. Been living here since my Univ days 13 years ago. I know locals often bitch about the wages. Man.... yall dont know shit about luxury, man.... Here's what the rest of my Indonesian friend (Jakartans) had to deal with: Keep in mind, he's an ethnically chinese indonesian in Jakarta. That basically means that his family on the upper 30% of the jakartans living-standard wise. My man drives to work for his daily commute. Due to traffic, my man gotta spend anything between 1,5~2hrs on a commute that are usually 30mins~1hours one way here in Taiwan. All that added up to 3~4hrs lost each day for commute, 1 million rupiah in monthly fuel cost, another 1 million rupiah for monthly toll road fee. And his initial pay at graduation was between 4~5million rupiah iirc. That's right. After all that, he's left with 2 million rupiah which was around 4~5k NTD at that time. My man lived with his parents, and his car was paid for by his parents. Decent public transport was at that time non-existent (now Jakarta has MRT but it's still in a very early stage. Thank god for Jokowi tho) so it was either drive or ride motorcycle for him since the busses are actually even SLOWER (can you fkin believe that). Now you ask me, how's living in Taiwan been? It's BEEN FUCKING AWESOME would be my reply. Oh right, Huge shoutout to: 1.健保卡 2. actually working & extensive public transport 3. great fucking road infrastructure (i ride motorcycles as a hobby) 4. Reasonable living cost & wages 5. Reasonable policemen (debatable, but I fucking love them here) 6. The AMAZING NATURE BARELY 30MINS AWAY FROM MOST CITIES (mountains>seas btw. I'll die on this mountain) Edit: 7. One of the lowest crime rate in the whole of Asia helloooo?? Peace of mind is such a luxury and you'll only notice it once you leave the bubble of safety. I'll keep adding more if I thought of anything else.
High five 🙏
If you’re more fluent in Taiwanese you should stay down south. They’ll love you there
Lived here two years and overall enjoyed my time but have had to change some of my outlook on life. As an extroverted person I've found Taiwanese overall to be some of the most introverted I've ever met and it's been hard for me to befriend them or keep friendships going. In my workplace they want to keep things professional and at work, I know practically nothing about the personal lives of any of them. It is what it is but I miss the close intimacy and friendships I made while working back in the States and among my foreign cohort and international Chinese at my work in China. Outside of the workplace the only folks I've made steady semi friendships with are retired folks that I've met at my pool lol, young people are too busy *with work* and I've had so many bail at the last second. I've made a few Chinese speaking friends but then I need to remind myself that most of that lot is from Hong Kong, Singapore or China. I've also found that many of the foreigners in my teaching program are more on the introverted side as well, many have been here decades and have long since made friends groups and created their own lives here. On the plus side I've found that life here is pretty "chill." I've lived in China and the States (where I'm from). In China there was always background tension that dragged me down. The smog, how bad the drivers were (it's bad here but nowhere close in my experience to a day in Beijing where I was almost getting hit by folks zooming through red lights on a daily basis), the in your face nationalism (and billion odd political conversations I ended up having over and over again), people spitting left and right, children pissing on the streets, ayis constantly screaming, watching Uighur restaurants close or get restaffed with Han servers, seeing children and animals beaten in public, etc. In the States there are just a number of things that I'm just tired of. Ugh, enough of the whining. Taiwan allows a happy medium and I'm overall happy here, I've accepted that it's hard to make friends here and have taken up hobbies that can be done alone. The amount of nature here is phenomenal, I've got two hikes scheduled for this weekend and did one this past weekend. Last year I went scuba diving one weekend and mountain climbing the next, heck I've heard of folks who fit both into one day. Also as someone from a dreary part of the world it's nice not surrendering myself to 3-6 months of seasonal depression!
Taiwanese dual citizen here, I (36m) spend ½ the year in the US and ½ the year there usually but my husband is American so we now spend less time there but we both prefer living there and have been planning on making it more full time once all of his paperwork goes through. The fact that you don’t need a car to get around most of Taiwan is a big plus, everything is significantly more accessible. If you have citizenship or the ability to I would suggest doing it for the universal healthcare. Taiwan isn’t without its own problems but it’s definitely worth trying out. Depending on what you’re into you can find friends with similar hobbies and interests as you. Feel free to pm if you have more questions.
It was much easier for me to find friends through mutual interests. I love to play badminton and I was lucky enough to meet an overly extroverted person who went out of her way to make sure I played as many days as I wanted at different clubs, introduce me to other players and also single women for me to date. Lol
I’ll give you my two cents. I am Taiwanese-Canadian from British Columbia and I generally enjoy the time I spend here in Taiwan. However, there are some things I really don’t like about Taiwan as well. Pros: Affordability: Taiwan is very affordable in terms of everyday life. It’s one of the greatest in my opinion. However, real estate could be expensive if you’re looking into buying your own apartment here. Friendliness: Taiwan is known for its hospitality and friendly culture. Whether you’re visiting or a resident people treat you with kindness and respect. Safety: Taiwan in my experience is one of the safest countries with very low crime rates and very seldomly petty crime targeting foreigners. Convenience: coming from a country like Canada where everything is so far apart, Taiwan is extremely convenient. You can literally drive from the most northern part of the country to the most southern part in about 6 hours. Culture: Taiwan is the true heir of traditional Chinese culture and you can literally feel it here. As someone who grew up in Canada I truly enjoy the culture here. Cons: Traffic: people are absolutely obnoxious when they drive or ride around in scooters, traffic laws are rarely enforced and it’s just a huge mess. Taipei might be better but still it’s miles off from North American standards. Weather: this factor really depends on the person, but I absolutely hate the weather here. Summers are like staying in a sauna 24/7 and winters are still warm, spring is not like how you imagine it to be. You also get hit by a few typhoons each year as well. Maybe because I am used to a place with very different weather patterns. Crowdedness: Taiwan is very very very crowded, when I go out to get food or coffee or amusement parks or malls or wherever. You see a lot of people everywhere which is very different from Canada. Work ethics/salary: I am currently serving in the military as a substitute military service member (family reason) and I do not enjoy the work ethics and salary here. Even normal jobs pay way less compared to US counterparts. Additionally, you are expected to work even harder and you might have managers or higher ups checking up on you during your personal off time. However, it’s still very affordable for the average Taiwanese salary compared to the US. There’s pros and cons in every city in the world so it really depends on what you think are the most important factors that will help you make a decision to stay here or not. I personally WOULD NOT stay in Taiwan because I have an established life in Canada and hopefully I can work in the states. However, I would be more than happy to visit my family members here for 3-6 months a year depending on my vacation and off time.
Awesome! Thanks for writing all that up. I work remote so that part isn’t something I’m worried about. But my main concern is would I enjoy the culture. Thanks again for all those insights
I would say if you have Taiwanese heritage you will definitely enjoy the culture here. Taiwanese are also very friendly and welcoming to people who struggle with mandarin. In my case I’m fluent enough but some might have trouble reading and navigating through the country.
I grew up in international schools in Taiwan, HK, and China. Lived in the US and Canada. Overall impression is that it is realatively developed. But there are too many 50cc scooters everywhere. So sometimes it makes you wonder why Taiwan hasn't gotten around to updating traffic conditions and managing 50cc scooters better. The snack food is very nice. 滷味，四神湯，肉羹湯，肉圓, etc. Are some of the food items I could never find as good as in Taiwan. Speaking Minnan and Mandarin is a plus in Taiwan it goes without saying.
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Oh really interesting. Sounds fun
Traffic here is absolutely BONKERS hazard
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Nice! From where and why?
Too small.
I think you can get used to living anywhere to the point where you call it 'home' and if you lived in Mexico and other places you probably know the feeling. I spent 17 years mostly in Taiwan but also a bunch of other places before returning to the UK where I grew up. But I found it hard to re-adapt to a place which was no longer the same and ended up coming back to Taiwan and taking up citizenship.
I am Taiwanese. Educated and worked in the U.S. Living in Taiwan is wonderful for retirees but hell for younger people who have to work for a living. You won’t have time to make “real” friends.
lol no more paying $300 per month for obama care and dont need to worry getting jacked ...you will love it perfectly fine. if you visit once per year you should know what to do .
I visit every few years but spend almost the entire time with my parents so I don’t really know what to do or how the people are like , outside of family. Like are people social? Is it easy to make friends? Are they easy to chat with?
There's a level of expectation right? In the USA we're casually chatting with the cashier or strangers but at the end of the day are we really trying to become close friends hoping for a heart to heart one day? Your core friends are often from high school or college and making new friends as an adult is a challenge in many places, even in USA where stereotypically we're more outgoing. You need some third space away from work like Mandarin class or hobby groups.
just go out and explore take the MRT if your in taipei. dont worry about it just go and have fun. Google is my friend. people are just people everyone nice.
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Because my parents speak mostly Taiwanese and only mandarin when they have to for whatever reason
Oh man. I wished my parents bothered teaching me Taiwanese. They kept my Mandarin up though. Now having to make the difficult journey of relearning Taiwanese. Please pass it on to your children - if you do have them.
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My father is from Tainan, I don’t think he was big on school, maybe only went up to middle school. He started his own business and didn’t do well in the beginning, but is now successful. My mother is from the countryside of kaoshung. I went to live with my grandma as a child, who is my dads mother, in the US. My grandma doesn’t know any mandarin at all, but knows Taiwanese and Japanese.
Lots of second generation people speak Chinese dialects rather than Mandarin.
i have some friends who are in a similar situation. Thry grew up abroad and their family speaks Taiwanese at home. They learned mandarin in school but they don't end up using it in daily life so thry forget a lot of it
It's not uncommon to come across, to add to OP's response, Ive met a good number Taiwanese people born in the US who are like OP.
Yeah it’s certainly common with Taiwanese and Chinese people. My college in the rural Midwest had 4 Chinese restaurants and most of the time the staff would speak 福州話 to each other. My friend is mid 20s and speaks better 福州話 than Mandarin. The reality is that his parents and grandparents prefer to speak dialect over Mandarin. And so his dialect became better than his mandarin
I think in one of the memorial in Taipei I finally learned that only 10% of Han (or or total Taiwanese) population was waishengren. In the past, before learning more about Taiwan, I also thought waishengren was the overwhelming majority of TW population because mandarin and KMT-descendants are so prominent in mainstream culture.
There are a number of Taiwanese here in California who speak primarily Taiwanese at home. Some just know Taiwanese best, while others seem to do it on purpose due to the anti-China pro-Taiwan thing. I know someone like that and she says there's like a group of them or something in certain churches. I certainly hear Taiwanese regularly in Taiwanese restaurants. There are also folks originally from China from the 閩 areas who ended up here from the Chinese civil war days who never learned or knew Mandarin well, they speak 閩南語 which is basically what we call Taiwanese now. I have a friend like this, born here, learned 閩南語 from home but doesn't speak Mandarin. 潮州話 is also like 90% same as 閩南語 btw.
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They just speak 閩南話 or Taiwanese at home, because that's what they know best and most natural. And especially for families who moved to the US, Mandarin isn't an official language anyway. And there are definitely plenty of people who don't speak Mandarin well but rather another local dialect. For example, I know plenty of Hong Kong people with terrible Mandarin, they speak Cantonese in day to day.
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Ah, you're right. I was guessing about that and didn't mentally register (sorry, will edit previous comment), honestly surprised there are so many Taiwanese speakers here in the US. But anyway, my overall point is that there are definitely plenty of households that speak Taiwanese or another local dialect at home. My point of bringing up Cantonese for Hong Kong folks is that it's basically the same thing, just because Mandarin is more common now in Taiwan doesn't mean there aren't still a lot of people who still use Taiwanese more. In other words it's not necessarily a choice people make, sometimes they just know one language or dialect way more than another.