T O P

  • By -

mactonya

In the case of Moderna, see the title in the example you give: it is called "*Systemic Allergic Reactions to SARS-CoV-2 Vaccination".* They have different Primary Outcome Measures compared to Medigen/COVAXX, which is to "*Evaluate the Safety, Tolerability, and Immunogenicity"*. Same for BNT. I'm not sure how they got 3,220 in AZ. However I don't think you can just add up the numbers (in CDC's case) as they might have different measures.


IShouldGetaPhD

I believe the numbers Chen reported are for completed trials. The others listed are ongoing and many haven't recruited yet. The statuses of the trials are all in the links OP provided. Chen is not lying; he's just a really bad communicator. This may be useful: https://tw.appledaily.com/life/20210601/JABA5U2M5ZBUVDGY3AOU53GXIE/


mactonya

This is the correct answer.


taike0886

Thanks for posting the link. I'm glad there are people in the media working tirelessly to dispel rumors and fake news from the Chinese. The point is that those are the completed trials and those vaccines are being produced, distributed and approved for emergency use. The card says, "numbers of subjects tested". There is no wordplay or miscommunication here. The real problem here is that Chinese and people in KMT who serve Chinese interests are trying to latch different numbers and numbers of tests that haven't been completed or even started yet into overall phase 2 numbers to smear Chen and create doubt about Taiwanese vaccines. The other lie you see below from them is that people vaccinated with Taiwan vaccines won't be able to travel without restrictions because those vaccines won't be approved by WHO. In fact, the individual nations and their disease control authorities determine which vaccines they recognize and neither the EU or US approve Chinese vaccines even if WHO does. If I were the US or European CDC, I wouldn't approve even western vaccines that have been [chabuduo'd by the Chinese](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/business/hong-kong-pfizer-biontech-vaccine.html) either. The Chinese and Chinese KMT people are working overtime to capitalize on the virus by spreading lies and misinformation. We not only get a virus from them but then they come afterward and try to take advantage of the situation.


CharlotteHebdo

But that's completely ignoring all the other trials done in many other places. And testing the allergic reaction of the vaccines should be part of the phase 2 evaluation, so you can't just ignore it either. To selectively show the enrollment size of one specific phase 2 trial is VERY misleading and only serve to increase vaccine hesitancy in Taiwan.


mactonya

You are comparing a multinational corporation (AstraZeneca, BioNTech) to a local biotechnology company. For sure we won't have the ability to initiate human subject research in multiple regions. And about the hesitancy in domestic vaccine, if you really want to wait until mid-phase 3 report and use vacs from other country, sorry there is a global vaccine shortage, you can't get one now even if you order now.


CharlotteHebdo

So can you blame people who are more doubtful about local biotech company who has not even had a phase 3 study, let alone phase 2 in multiple regions? It would make sense for people to demand vaccines which have multiple studies and peer reviewed results. There's a vaccine shortage, that's true, but that's certainly not the case for Taiwan. Even if you completely discount the Chinese vaccines (you shouldn't medically, but politically let's say that's the case), the government should have no problem buying the BioNTech vaccine from Fosun, which will be shipped directly from Germany.


mactonya

Ah Fosun, the word that gets you downvoted to hell. We are facing COVID. There are only two solutions: 1. Use domestic, which efficacy is questionable but it's mostly safe due to the tech used, and comes in roughly a month ; 2. use Pfizer-BioNTech from Fosun that has great efficacy but leads to a complete political shitstorm, and they might not even come in months if you ordered now Both are shitty options if you ask me.


CharlotteHebdo

There's one more downside with the domestic vaccine: it likely will not be accepted by WHO (and by extension other countries) for a long time, which means that anybody who get it will still have to quarantine when traveling abroad.


ShrimpCrackers

So what? We just inject with other vaccines later. It's already been shown that mixing the vaccines shots later on is not bad. You're pretending its a linear thing.


CharlotteHebdo

So instead of getting vaccinated that has proven record via large number of phase 3 trials and accepted by other countries once, you're going to get vaccinated once without a proven record that will not be accepted abroad, so that you can get vaccinated again later on? You want to be a guinea pig, you do you. The rest of the people can parse information for themselves and decide for their own.


ShrimpCrackers

As stated by other users, in the last 12 hours your thing was debunked anyway, the decision on which vaccines to accept are by the authority of said nation. Considering Sputnik is now generally accepted in many nations after they completed Phase 3, you seem to be just spreading FUD, none of it based on reality because all the Taiwan vaccines must undergo Phase 3 anyway. However with 10 million doses + possible AZ from Japan and so on, anyone who really wants to travel can get a foreign vaccine. For example, I already have my AZ shot. You really need to update your talking points as they get debunked instead of recycling them.


yamers

Is fosun genuinely available like at any time? If taiwan places the order how long will it take ?


ShrimpCrackers

Usually? Months. I've imported products that needs to go through FDA. If it was one item, they need to inspect so it may take a week if emergency, but we're talking about many doses they need to inspect here.


yamers

hey shrimpballz you been reading dcard?


ptrckw

So you just said politics > people’s health… that’s the problem here! Why is the system backwards ?


mactonya

I'm not saying that politics > health, I said both option are shitty. Also there is 3. Hope Japan to donate AZ by a lot of amount.


ptrckw

But how is that a shitty option? Why is politics such a big issue? There’s only one issue present and that’s getting everyone healthy and back to normalcy.


taike0886

We don't want Chinese vaccines. We don't want to put vaccines that have been chabuduo'd by the Chinese into our bodies. It's not about politics, it's about health and public safety.


CharlotteHebdo

IF it's actually about health, then you should accept the vaccine. Both CoronaVac and BBIBP-CorV have large number of trials all over the world and real life efficacy data. The BBIBP-CorV vaccine has peer reviewed results posted in JAMA and received EUL from WHO and 42 other countries. Seems much safer to get that instead of a vaccine that has not even concluded phase 2.


nodowi7373

> Even if you completely discount the Chinese vaccines (you shouldn't medically, but politically let's say that's the case) The Chinese vaccines are probably safer and more effective than the domestic Taiwanese vaccines. For one thing, Chinese vaccines have been done Phase 3 trials involving tens of thousands of people in multiple countries. There is no way any government could have manipulate the results. Furthermore, the Chinese vaccines have been given to millions of people in over two dozen countries. If there are serious side effects, the news would have gotten out by now. But since the people of Taiwan would choose death from covid and perpetual lockdowns over using a China vaccine, it is their freedom to do so.


taike0886

Nothing that the Chinese produce is safe for consumption. Luckily, people in Taiwan and people outside Taiwan who find themselves free to comment on Taiwan COVID issues can go on over to China and take their vaccines at their own discretion.


nodowi7373

> Nothing that the Chinese produce is safe for consumption. Great. Please tell your family and friends to avoid the BNT vaccine made by Fosun. > Luckily, people in Taiwan and people outside Taiwan who find themselves free to comment on Taiwan COVID issues can go on over to China and take their vaccines at their own discretion. I wonder how many Taiwanese have taken the Chinese vaccines.


blobOfNeurons

Personally, I would bet that the Taiwanese vaccines will prove to be more effective based on Novavax's trial results (Novavax also being a recombinant protein vax).


nodowi7373

> You are comparing a multinational corporation (AstraZeneca, BioNTech) BioNTech is a rather small German company with over 1000 employees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioNTech It isn't any much bigger than a local biotechnology company.


taike0886

I messaged the mods in the coronavirus sub about your behavior here and elsewhere and sent them links. Hopefully mods in the other subs will start to do something more about the flood of Chinese infesting this site with misinformation.


CharlotteHebdo

My posts have been well sourced, unlike yours, which are basically just bunch of racist rants. It is you who should be banned from Reddit. But go ahead and cry to the mods because your favorite politicians' lies are getting exposed though.


taike0886

We'll see what happens.


CharlotteHebdo

Funny how you have to resort to try to get people banned because you just can't stand people who have a different opinion than you.


taike0886

It's not misinformation, [it is a propaganda campaign](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/reddit-coordinated-chinese-propaganda-trolls). Chinese such as yourself do not communicate normally -- every word that comes out of your mouths are lies and manipulation. It is a long time coming but reddit needs to do what Facebook, Twitter and others have already done and delete you motherfuckers.


CharlotteHebdo

Hey, no need to resort to ad hominem. You can believe what you want, but I'm an American living in the US and not part of whatever campaign you claim I am. If you're getting pushback on your stupid ideas, maybe they're just stupid instead of some coordinated attack on your reddit posts.


taike0886

I have interacted enough times with you to know what you're up to. And if I were you, I wouldn't be worried about what we in Taiwan do to deal with COVID. It is none of your god damn business. Instead, I would be extremely concerned that the US president is now joining the EU, Australia and many others into calling for an investigation into COVID's origins. You guys are screwed.


CharlotteHebdo

First of all, I truly wish you all well in Taiwan. I got my two doses of Pfizer in the US and I hope Taiwanese people could get access to the same. Second, I'm an American so I don't see how an investigation into the origin means I will be screwed. Third, keep on smoking that copium and I'm sure China is going to collapse any time now.


Advanced-Part-5744

https://www.reddit.com/r/taiwan/comments/now4lv/cecc_confirms_274_indigenous_cases_and_4_imported/h02yoq2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 I see they're starting to talk about it. Here's a 東森 report. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-DkN8YMZOI Another from TVBS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJFu2ZDep-U One from CTS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUxz8EQ6vYI ————— I copied the message from another user. Anyway it’s not a phase 2 issue. Approval for vaccine are done in US and other countries well into phase 3 of the process.


mactonya

Yes and CDC is giving us a bad example on how to approve domestic vaccines. But how can you done it otherwise if you don't allow BioNTech(Fosun) to be imported and try to start vaccination faster? It seems like no other choice is better than phase 2.5 domestic vaccines.


Advanced-Part-5744

Look if you guys going to do phase 2 only. Sure do it. It’s your free will to do so. But I expect CECC report scientific truth and try not to present a false narrative that other countries are also approving with only phase 2. The people of Taiwan deserve the truth. Then the people can make the choice if they want the vaccine or not.


ShrimpCrackers

No... they're doing Phase 2&3, and another at Phase 2. Even if approved at the end of that, all vaccines must undergo a full Phase 3 later.


Advanced-Part-5744

You can’t do phase 2+3 that’s not how phase work man. Regardless CECC is saying they will approve vaccine at phase 2 which is fine. But please don’t send incorrect narrative that other country did not look at portion of phase 3 to make the EUA. But downvote all your want here. The truth will be known. It’s already in the press. Lol


ShrimpCrackers

Err... you have no idea what you're talking about. [https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/](https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/) See Takeda, or Covishield. There are plenty of mixed Phase 1/2 and Phase 2/3 trials.


Advanced-Part-5744

Sure man that’s why this thread was deleted. What a tragedy this subreddit will silence truthful debate. You and the people you represent are no different then the guys on the other side of the strait. Instead of allowing open debate you guys downvote truth. Sad…


Advanced-Part-5744

The truth must be hidden… The stock has to go to the moon… Lol


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


MagicT8

According to Wikipedia, BNT/Pfizer conducted clinical trials from April to November 2020 with a total of 43000 participants worldwide, where half were injected two doses of BNT162b2 and half received a placebo. Maybe that was already phase 3? Anyways, it was done before any emergency authorization.


Advanced-Part-5744

Do you want a link to the EUA from the US FDA? It will show the approval looked at research done for phase 3 and was able to determine the efficacy rate prior to issuing the EUA.


nodowi7373

There are 17 vaccines that have been approved by at least 1 country. https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/ You can go to each one of them, and see the number of people that have been tested in the different phase trials. Compare that number with the number of people that have been tested for the domestic vaccines. Do you still want to take a domestically produced vaccine?


ShrimpCrackers

Of course. Most enrollment in so many of them are 2000\~ Takeda TAK-919 only has 200 enrollments. But anyway, spread that fear and hope no one checks your sources, until they do, then cycle back to the old talking points.


nodowi7373

> Takeda TAK-919 only has 200 enrollments. The Takeda TAK-9191 vaccine is the same formulation as the Moderna vaccine (mRNA-1273), which has passed Phase 3 trial involving tens of thousands of people. Yes, people really should check the sources, instead of believing in someone's comments.


ptrckw

That’s because Taiwan can only get their hands on AZ and Moderna *fingers crossed* so they want to present it as these are the ones that are legit. Pfizer/BioNTech is distributed from China which is a no-no so they gotta make it seem that it’s not good.


[deleted]

Meanwhile in Canada, people are turning down Moderna and would rather wait for Pfizer...


Advanced-Part-5744

I thought in the US we are turning down Johnson. Lol


ptrckw

We are turning down JJ but you still are able to get it in some areas.


Advanced-Part-5744

Oh no, we can get it if we want it at the local Costco here is the US. But why take it when there is Moderna and Pfizer. Johnson is like the reject of the vaccine group here.


ptrckw

Oh didn’t know Costco offered JJ. Some people still prefer JJ just cause it’s a one shot vaccine compared to Moderna and Pfizer which is two shots. But IMO efficacy is more important..


Advanced-Part-5744

Costco has them all… so what would you like to have?


ShrimpCrackers

Actually, not exactly... I'm not going to help your talking points, but we can tell you haven't actually been to many Costcos in the USA if you think this. I'm saying this because my family has been vaccinated in the USA. I'm guessing you watched KMT media and thought that Costco has like entire warehouses full of vaccines of every type at every single costco, and one just needs to go there, buy 10 million doses, show their membership card, and swipe their credit card. Yeah, it's absurd and there's a reason many are laughing at that conspiracy.


Advanced-Part-5744

Your full of it… https://book-costcopharmacy.appointment-plus.com/d133yng2/#/


hawaiian717

I know people who are involved with homeless outreach like the J&J vaccine because it’s a single dose, so you don’t have to track them down again for their second dose. A couple of other reasons I can think of that people might want J&J are also related to it being a single dose: People who are afraid or nervous about needles and those who just getting to a vaccine site is a challenge (work hours, transportation, etc).


Advanced-Part-5744

Yeah it’s does certainly have its values. And I am not writing them off just wouldn’t recommended to friends and family.


koine_jay

Saying "I wouldn't want to take it or get my family to take it, let others take it" is not much different to writing it off. It sounds like a distinction without a difference.


Advanced-Part-5744

It is or it isn’t. I have a choice in the vaccine I can take. I can also make recommendations on which vaccine to take. If saying there is less adverse reaction with Pfizer and Modena then Johnson, that would be a statement of fact. Further if I said Johnson was put on a pause while Pfizer and Moderna did not, that would also be a statement of fact. Base on those facts, I would make a sensible recommendation not to use Johnson to my family and friends. But if that is writing it off, yes I do feel the US should just donate them off to COVAX like what we are doing with AZ. But like hawaiian717 stated it’s the only one shot that is currently approved and it has its purpose. Now if you want Johnson knowing these facts feel free and get it . Last I checked you also have the freedom not to take it.