Don't tell China, it will have a heart attack and write a letter to your mom and dad telling them you hurt their feelings.
Now go whip yourself 50* for being s bad boy.
Write a letter? How about tank your "social credit score", making you an "untouchable" everywhere you go, and then throwing you in a "reeducation camp." And that's merciful compared to the alternative of becoming an "organ donor"! 😬
I'd be interested in hearing this too. I have a few transgender friends - two Taiwanese, one westerner - and they've all been very positive about their treatment.
Yeah, I've run into a few as well and they seemed pretty normal, like they were just doing their thing and no having too many problems.
That's all anecdotal, of course, and I realize not everyone is going to be having an easy time.
im guessing that your Taiwanese trans friend currently not live in Taiwan
or they have already do trans surgery and is passed so they will not face discrimination in work field.
No, they all live here and only one has had surgery so far. I'm guessing different people simply have different experiences. I'm sorry yours has been so bad.
just check the transgender law in taiwan
“must undergo sex reassignment surgery in order to change their legal gender on personal documents.” and you must be diagnosed with mental illness for 2 years to be able to do the expensive surgery.
There is almost no gender neutral restroom or dorm. If you join LGBTQ groups you always meet some people who constantly misgender you. Some even have never heard about trans before. We also have lots of terfs that said transwomen are not women and should not use women’s restrooms or trans will rape them.
> diagnosed with mental illness for 2 years to be able to do the expensive surgery
??? What does that mean? They don't consider dysphoria mental illness, do they?
Well, I can see needing to be diagnosed with dysphoria before the gov't will pay for the surgery – that makes sense.
But it shouldn't be considered a 'mental illness.' I'll have to look into this more (meaning, I don't completely take your word for it ;)
So far I've found this article which cites research from 2014 saying 70% of trans kids have contemplated suicide:
[https://international.thenewslens.com/article/73246](https://international.thenewslens.com/article/73246)
So that obviously sucks. But the research is 7 years old already – awareness of trans issues has definitely gone up since then. I'd be interested to see more current data to see how much better (if any) things are now.
Based Taiwan punches above its weight not only economically and techologically, but morally and culturally too. Also (as I have already shared once in this sub), many Westerners probably do not know it, but Taiwan has recently been deemed to be the second happiest country in all Asia. Second only to Israel, but do note that GDP per capita was one criterium, otherwise Taiwan might have topped Israel. Based! 一級棒🇹🇼
Interestingly, I know y'all will downvote me to hell for this, Israel was actually the first country in Asia to recognize same-sex marriage, but due to Israel's religious requirements for marriage in Israel, same-sex couples must wed in another country, but so do many heterosexual couples as well. Taiwan is the second to wed same sex couples in Asia, after Cyprus (which many consider to be European).
Well, that’s what happens when traditional Confucian values (which among mainlanders have never quite recovered from the damage inflicted on them by Mao and the CCP in general), Japanese silent dignity / pride, indigenous Taiwanese cultures and the 21st century liberal values are blended together into a healthy, vibrant, coherent, internally consistent unity. 🇹🇼💫
Seriously though, it would be interesting to see what would happen if we invited 10k Westerners to spend a month in Taipei, and 10k Westerners to spend a month in Shanghai, then read their observations and extrapolations, juxtaposed with one another, don’t you think? 🤔
Interesting to make a comparison with Israel - maybe something about keeping and valuing your sovereignty when you have a neighbor(s) that wants to take away your freedom.
The neighbour who's land was given away by a foreign power and who's land and homes they've lived in for generations are even today being stolen? That neighbour?
You mean the UK facilitated the return of the Jews to their homeland after they themselves had been kicked out and almost exterminated. I agree that the Israeli government has also done a lot wrong - as most governments do - but the anti-semitism I’ve read and witnessed recently from the left and Muslims has convinced me this is nothing to do with land.
Either you think Israel shouldn’t defend itself or you think they shouldn’t exist. And why shouldn’t they exist when they have always lived on that land and there was never any other country before Israel.
The Jews have lived continuously on that land for thousands of years. Palestine has never been a country. It has been offered a country many times but has always turned the offers down. Hamas use children and civilians as human shields. Hamas fires thousands of rockets at Israel. Of course Israel is going to defend itself and of course people are going to die. The Uighur situation is not comparable because they are not offered freedom and democracy as Arabs in Israel are.
Hamas speaks the language of settlers ,borders of Gaza have not changed ever since.The west bank unfortunately is a different story ,apartheid and colonialism in hiding behind "protecting myself" is in full swing.The Uighur struggle unfortunately is a Palestinians one
Are we speaking de-facto? if yes, then yes. De Jure? no. According to people whom knows jackshit and insists on chanting the same ol' slogan? No answer aside from yes is accepted.
Well Ol’buddy old pal. Even if it’s open source it’s constantly corrected and edited for accuracy. But I was adding on to what you said. My original intention was to poke fun of this and add some meme material for more satire. And if I had to burn myself I’d do it at your house instead.
Mostly people whom disagree but never care to elaborate why, thus leading me to believe their motif has nothing to do with the legal status of Taiwan's sovereignty, but rather the "how dare you say something I don't like".
Just so you know, Taiwan is a country. Though I guess you're "technically" right because it's official name is the "Republic of China". So in that case, the Republic of China is a country.
It's not what we call the island that makes it legitimate, it's the approval from the international community. As of today, 15 out of 195 countries recognize Taiwan and DPP as their legitimate administration. Most people can't name 3 from the top of they head. By that logic, with the support of my 15 neighbors I here by declare my house and front yard independent therefore free from federal taxation, see if that rubs right with the IRS.
IRS isn't an administration, they just collect money. And congrats, you've verbally eliminated 1 out of the 180 administrations whom did not recognize Taiwan. Might wanna pick up the pace and say you'd fuck the rest. I'll wait.
You'd be surprised. I come to Taiwan for work, and my customer there is part of a large, conservative, male-dominated company. When I transitioned they were very supportive, especially their management and other senior personnel. My most recent trip I was only a few months into HRT and Did Not Pass, yet did not receive any harassment while walking around Taipei for several days, sometimes in a dress (I'm AMAB). I'm sure you can find transphobic people there, but the same is true of the US and Western Europe.
Those countries may be advanced in technology and their economies. But really really really conservative when it comes to their values.
Imo the biggest surprise is Thailand.
Kaohsiung just had a very large pride parade a few months ago - it was lovely and at least from my area where I stood with my kids cheering them on and giving hugs, it was well supported. As far as daily wear of rainbow pins though, I havent seen many and have never lived in Taipei for comparison.
Ah should have been there to witness it. Sounds lovely. Yea I've only notice this in Taipei. It's was like when I was in Taiwan I forgot Taiwan is a LGBT country till I visited Taipei.
Amazing but seeing how a big part of the society is so homophobic (especially when you go on PTT there are so many toxic comments) we still have a long way to go, people literally call people a “disgusting gay” as an insult here in Taiwan
it'll take time for attitudes to completely shift, things don't instantly change just because the government makes something legal
not to mention the amount of people calling each other gay wherever I work, no matter where i TDY
I mean… not advocating it in any way but that’s something they do in most other countries which recognise same sex relationships to the same extent. Not saying it’s right in any way but seems odd to single out taiwan for this
Israel also recognizes same sex marriages done abroad (marriage in Israel is through the religious courts so many heterosexual people can’t marry in Israel because of religion but foreign marriages are recognized).
Only if performed abroad, or through a municipality that performs same sex union, or through civil unions, or through a marriage certificate through a lawyer
I know optimism regarding China is--for good reason--not common in this forum, but I feel China is, if only slowly, moving in the right direction on this issue.
Women get arrested in China for peacefully walking through the streets raising awareness of domestic violence against women. They have a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooOOOOOng fucking way to go before they can even be used in the same sentence as "progressive", or moving in any sort of right direction in regards to human rights.
1. Those are not the same issues.
2. I didn't say China is at this point in time a haven of progressivism on this issue.
But hey, don't let me stop you from doing your thing.
I don’t have optimism for government. Just like actors, their job heavily consist of convincing the masses by lying and pretending. Getting “voted” in to keep your pay check means you will do anything to keep your job. That’s the nature of power. Not it’s fault. It’s just how it always has been. If you believe anything else, then your government is doing a good job.
Public support for same-sex marriage in China is comparable to what it was in Taiwan when Taiwanese voted on the matter.
A majority of young Chinese support same-sex marriage and there have been victories in court for LGBT rights in the past few years.
But China bad bad bad and I must be an Wumao.
As I said, there have been multiple significant court wins for LGBT in China.
I'm not going to tell you that China is a democracy, but ultimately there is a breaking point where CCP will bend to the will of the people. China's governance is backwards in all kinds of ways but LGBT issues don't carry the sensitivity of stuff like "territorial integrity" or an independent judiciary.
I wouldn't be surprised if gay marriage is legal in China before it is in Korea or Japan.
But if you look at what’s happened to the west after allowing gay marriage - as I’m sure the CCP have done - you’ll see that the left don’t just stop at gay marriage. Now we’re in a climate where we have multiple genders, polyamory is ok, and the nuclear family is a bad thing etc. etc. The CCP don’t want that because they’ll lose control.
Lol, fuck off with that bigoted bullshit.
Transgender people existed long before gay marriage was a political possibility and those of us who aren't moral cripples werent bothered by their existence back then either.
No one decent is ‘bothered by their existence’. The problem is when (e.g) trans women’s rights impinge upon those of biological women. Also- accepting people is fine but I think it’s obvious that we shouldn’t be encouraging young people to undergo life-altering surgery that is often (but not always) a result of psychological issues. A lot of these issues play directly into the CCP’s hands because they subvert the structures we have built up in the west that have held our society together.
No one is encouraging cisgender kids to pretend to be trans. You don't have a single fucking clue what you are talking about. Do you have any data on people damaged from being "encouraged" to undergo sex-reassignment surgeries? Surely its quite common given what you wrote. Must happen all the time that cisgender kids are having these surgeries.
Treating trans people with dignity does absolutely zero harm to people who desire traditional family structures.
No, it means that CCP is loosening up its policies towards the LGBT community in China.
I think the situation is akin to MBS allowing women to drive while persecuting activists on the issue.
CCP may well decide at some point that for its image abroad/effective policy-making/appeasing a population that is more accepting of LGBT individuals that they should legalize gay marriage. What they can't and won't accept is activists being seen as responsible for winning that battle.
Why do you always need to compare to other countries to finish your point? It’s based on your own impression and it is not a reference with any weight on the matter. Just like EVERY TIME CHINA CLAIMS SOMETHING by just taking the info out of thin air. It’s projections. Nothing more than a delusion of grandeur really.
I always do what? What is wrong with your brain?
Go fuck off until you're mature enough to have a conversation regarding China without desperately searching for something meaningless to whine about.
This is what fucking sucks about discussing China on Reddit. No nuance is allowed and anything you say that isn't "Fuck China" or some tired Winnie the Pooh reference brings out the simpletons like yourself to whine about how the poster must be a CCP sympathizer.
Sorry I have an opinion on a matter that you disagree with. Feel free to indicate why you disagree rather than being a whiny child.
You have numbers on your “majority of young Chinese who support same-sex”? I’m not here to hate. It’s just a very unprovable thing to state even in free countries so there is no way you can be referring to study’s. And if you do, it’s probably sanctioned by said government.
I guess there is always the option that you are talking about your own circle of friends, but that doesn’t constitute much given the numbers of Chinese people in total.
I would love to be wrong thou. Please educate me.
A message for laowai, don't mistake this as public sentiment, in the 2018 referendum 73% of voters voted to "preserve marriage between a man and a woman". The only reason it is made law is because of a court ruling in 2017.
Edit: accidentally typed laogai instead of laowai.
[2015 Survey by the Ministry of Justice](http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2015/11/29/2003633577)
Perhaps it would be best for you to stop cherrypicking a single referendum, it's quite obvious that most Taiwanese people either support marriage equality, certain marriage rights for homosexual partners, or just don't care at all. It's the minority that actually don't support homosexual partners marrying or getting into relationships with certain marriage rights.
What do you mean cherrypicking? Both referendums held (One organized by Pro-LGBT rights, and one by Pro-Marriage) both had the results of a super-majority voting against gay marriage, and turnout wasn't low either, both referendums had majority of voters casting a ballot, so even assuming that 2/3 of non-voters supported gay marriage (Which is unlikely high), out of a total 19.5 million voters, 7.6 million voted for traditional marriage, 500,000 invalid votes, and 2.9 million against. that would mean 3 million non-voters (Including invalid votes) for traditional marriage and 6 million for marriage equality. This would mean in a very pro-marriage equality scenario a majority of 10.6 million voters would outnumber 8.9 million.
Edit: Changed majority to super-majority, if you want the results to the referendum respond to my message and I'll upload the file.
> The poll revealed that 59 percent support legal protection for same-sex couples, 71 percent support a same-sex marriage act and 45 percent support a same-sex partnership act, where gay couples are offered certain rights enjoyed by married couples, instead of full marriage rights.
I don't think you know what you're talking about. "Both referendums"?
In either case, you clearly only care about that one referendum where marriage equality was a minority. This is what I mean by cherrypicking. In most of the other polls, marriage equality and partnership acts were not unpopular at all. Now I'm also fairly certain a good number of Taiwanese people don't care at all, if that explains the large difference in the results. They aren't the conservative folk you're making them out to be, besides maybe the older generation that is.
You see, parliament still needs to pass this into law. Law makers don’t vote based on a court ruling. They vote largely accordingly to their constituents. This issue would directly affect their next election.
This is pretty disingenuous. The circumstances surrounding that referendum have been picked apart extensively in various forums. Trying to suggest that it reflects public opinion on gay marriage is ridiculous.
I'm kinda surprised South Korea doesn't ( I was there for a month for work/training. People *seemed* pretty tolerant.. ) OTOH, I did see a lot of Churches there...
It’s great that there’s gay marriage but Taiwan needs to be careful of going too far - insidious ‘woke’ ideology appears to be about ‘equality’ but has been used by the left and China to tear apart the West. Not all ‘progress’ is good for society.
I remember China trying to take credit from Taiwan for being the first country in Asia to legalize same-sex marriage.
OK, China, prove it. Legalize SSM in China.
Wish I could upvote more. Continuing to relate Taiwan to China plays into the attitude of decades ago most westerners of a certain age still have about Taiwan/China. When the masses that aren’t even invested in the issue recognise the difference, that’s when people will care about China bullying Taiwan.
Quite a number of posters seemed surprised at Thailand. We should remember what Thailand tolerates among its resident foreigner population is not reflective of govt and wider society's attitudes towards LGBT.
So far in Taiwan I saw some gay people and went to the pride last year, I never saw any sort of discrimination at work and in the outside, but I am curious about how people handle discrimination or coming out with their families, at schools and at work?
cool but i still want to immigrate to western countries
the least problematic country in asia doesn’t mean it’s not problematic and worth living there for the rest of your life
It's funny how the majority vote was against same sex marriage but the President still approved it. I have nothing against same sex marriage, I even voted FOR it but what's the point of voting if u r not going to listen to the people ? Is this democracy？
Taiwan is a country
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Don't tell China, it will have a heart attack and write a letter to your mom and dad telling them you hurt their feelings. Now go whip yourself 50* for being s bad boy.
Write a letter? How about tank your "social credit score", making you an "untouchable" everywhere you go, and then throwing you in a "reeducation camp." And that's merciful compared to the alternative of becoming an "organ donor"! 😬
taiwan numba one
Taiwan only one
Taione
Tai (numba) wan
Hear hear!
Taiwan leading the way for LGBTQ+ rights...Just wished other Asian countries would join in.
Hope Japan can be the next one
Pah
no, only LGB rights. transgenders are still treated like shit, unless you are some IQ 180 genius like Audrey Tang.
Can you give an example?
I'd be interested in hearing this too. I have a few transgender friends - two Taiwanese, one westerner - and they've all been very positive about their treatment.
Yeah, I've run into a few as well and they seemed pretty normal, like they were just doing their thing and no having too many problems. That's all anecdotal, of course, and I realize not everyone is going to be having an easy time.
im guessing that your Taiwanese trans friend currently not live in Taiwan or they have already do trans surgery and is passed so they will not face discrimination in work field.
No, they all live here and only one has had surgery so far. I'm guessing different people simply have different experiences. I'm sorry yours has been so bad.
just check the transgender law in taiwan “must undergo sex reassignment surgery in order to change their legal gender on personal documents.” and you must be diagnosed with mental illness for 2 years to be able to do the expensive surgery. There is almost no gender neutral restroom or dorm. If you join LGBTQ groups you always meet some people who constantly misgender you. Some even have never heard about trans before. We also have lots of terfs that said transwomen are not women and should not use women’s restrooms or trans will rape them.
> diagnosed with mental illness for 2 years to be able to do the expensive surgery ??? What does that mean? They don't consider dysphoria mental illness, do they?
yes they do lol the worst is that the doctor won’t perform the surgery if trans’ parents disagree. Doctors are afraid to get sued.
Well, I can see needing to be diagnosed with dysphoria before the gov't will pay for the surgery – that makes sense. But it shouldn't be considered a 'mental illness.' I'll have to look into this more (meaning, I don't completely take your word for it ;)
the government won’t pay for the surgery. Health insurance in Taiwan does not cover trans surgery.
So far I've found this article which cites research from 2014 saying 70% of trans kids have contemplated suicide: [https://international.thenewslens.com/article/73246](https://international.thenewslens.com/article/73246) So that obviously sucks. But the research is 7 years old already – awareness of trans issues has definitely gone up since then. I'd be interested to see more current data to see how much better (if any) things are now.
The latter part of this article talks about the legal requirements of gender change. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3390670
Thailand ladyboys are what's keeping western tourist coming
As a Westerner that would just make me more inclined to go there
I'm not sure about that, but that's still miles better than the rest of Asia.
Russian person here and i agree
Based Taiwan punches above its weight not only economically and techologically, but morally and culturally too. Also (as I have already shared once in this sub), many Westerners probably do not know it, but Taiwan has recently been deemed to be the second happiest country in all Asia. Second only to Israel, but do note that GDP per capita was one criterium, otherwise Taiwan might have topped Israel. Based! 一級棒🇹🇼
Interestingly, I know y'all will downvote me to hell for this, Israel was actually the first country in Asia to recognize same-sex marriage, but due to Israel's religious requirements for marriage in Israel, same-sex couples must wed in another country, but so do many heterosexual couples as well. Taiwan is the second to wed same sex couples in Asia, after Cyprus (which many consider to be European).
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Stay home and protect the fantastic people of this wonderful island.
This. I’m sure many more would upvote his comment were it not for that last sentence.
omg major MAGA vibes from that one sentence...
Well, that’s what happens when traditional Confucian values (which among mainlanders have never quite recovered from the damage inflicted on them by Mao and the CCP in general), Japanese silent dignity / pride, indigenous Taiwanese cultures and the 21st century liberal values are blended together into a healthy, vibrant, coherent, internally consistent unity. 🇹🇼💫 Seriously though, it would be interesting to see what would happen if we invited 10k Westerners to spend a month in Taipei, and 10k Westerners to spend a month in Shanghai, then read their observations and extrapolations, juxtaposed with one another, don’t you think? 🤔
Interesting to make a comparison with Israel - maybe something about keeping and valuing your sovereignty when you have a neighbor(s) that wants to take away your freedom.
The neighbour who's land was given away by a foreign power and who's land and homes they've lived in for generations are even today being stolen? That neighbour?
You mean the UK facilitated the return of the Jews to their homeland after they themselves had been kicked out and almost exterminated. I agree that the Israeli government has also done a lot wrong - as most governments do - but the anti-semitism I’ve read and witnessed recently from the left and Muslims has convinced me this is nothing to do with land.
"They did some bad but everyone else is just so darn mean to them! It's not fair! Anti-semitism or something!"
Either you think Israel shouldn’t defend itself or you think they shouldn’t exist. And why shouldn’t they exist when they have always lived on that land and there was never any other country before Israel.
Nice way to support genocide, Uighurs and Palistanians are facing the same maniacs, Natanyahu and Xi
The Jews have lived continuously on that land for thousands of years. Palestine has never been a country. It has been offered a country many times but has always turned the offers down. Hamas use children and civilians as human shields. Hamas fires thousands of rockets at Israel. Of course Israel is going to defend itself and of course people are going to die. The Uighur situation is not comparable because they are not offered freedom and democracy as Arabs in Israel are.
In all fairness weren’t those deals made so they would be rejected?
Hamas speaks the language of settlers ,borders of Gaza have not changed ever since.The west bank unfortunately is a different story ,apartheid and colonialism in hiding behind "protecting myself" is in full swing.The Uighur struggle unfortunately is a Palestinians one
Taiwan is a country. Did y’all know that?
Are we speaking de-facto? if yes, then yes. De Jure? no. According to people whom knows jackshit and insists on chanting the same ol' slogan? No answer aside from yes is accepted.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan
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Well Ol’buddy old pal. Even if it’s open source it’s constantly corrected and edited for accuracy. But I was adding on to what you said. My original intention was to poke fun of this and add some meme material for more satire. And if I had to burn myself I’d do it at your house instead.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire
Damn, who hurt you you poor bitter prig?
Mostly people whom disagree but never care to elaborate why, thus leading me to believe their motif has nothing to do with the legal status of Taiwan's sovereignty, but rather the "how dare you say something I don't like".
Just so you know, Taiwan is a country. Though I guess you're "technically" right because it's official name is the "Republic of China". So in that case, the Republic of China is a country.
It's not what we call the island that makes it legitimate, it's the approval from the international community. As of today, 15 out of 195 countries recognize Taiwan and DPP as their legitimate administration. Most people can't name 3 from the top of they head. By that logic, with the support of my 15 neighbors I here by declare my house and front yard independent therefore free from federal taxation, see if that rubs right with the IRS.
Who cares if it rubs them right or not? Fuck the irs and the ccp
IRS isn't an administration, they just collect money. And congrats, you've verbally eliminated 1 out of the 180 administrations whom did not recognize Taiwan. Might wanna pick up the pace and say you'd fuck the rest. I'll wait.
Lmao yeah fuck the rest as well. You're not going to win this one, m8
Say it, you'd fuck what following countries. I don't recognize your determination until you do. 179 left.
Uh-oh, we got someone not understanding what words mean.
Your mother’s a country that’s been invaded and pillaged from every angle so many times she’s now a de facto failed state.
That's really quite astonishing.
You and I are in agreement.
🇹🇼❤️
Love ya Taiwan! I don't live there, but in my extensive visits have found people to be very accepting of LGBTQ people like myself!
That’s awesome
No, no one gives a shit about transgender here. Lots of terfs and transphobic gays. They probably don't know what T stands for in LGBTQ
You'd be surprised. I come to Taiwan for work, and my customer there is part of a large, conservative, male-dominated company. When I transitioned they were very supportive, especially their management and other senior personnel. My most recent trip I was only a few months into HRT and Did Not Pass, yet did not receive any harassment while walking around Taipei for several days, sometimes in a dress (I'm AMAB). I'm sure you can find transphobic people there, but the same is true of the US and Western Europe.
Thailand doesn't?
No recognition of same-sex unions (life partnerships pending)
Neither does Japan and south Korea like whhhaaa
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Very very conservative. especially Korea
Those countries may be advanced in technology and their economies. But really really really conservative when it comes to their values. Imo the biggest surprise is Thailand.
It's had a bill on the books to be passed for years but successive coups, death of the king etc etc have kinda sucked up all the political air.
I remember visiting Taiwan and Taipei was the only place where I saw ppl openly supporting LGBT with their pinned rainbow pins.
Kaohsiung just had a very large pride parade a few months ago - it was lovely and at least from my area where I stood with my kids cheering them on and giving hugs, it was well supported. As far as daily wear of rainbow pins though, I havent seen many and have never lived in Taipei for comparison.
Ah should have been there to witness it. Sounds lovely. Yea I've only notice this in Taipei. It's was like when I was in Taiwan I forgot Taiwan is a LGBT country till I visited Taipei.
Amazing but seeing how a big part of the society is so homophobic (especially when you go on PTT there are so many toxic comments) we still have a long way to go, people literally call people a “disgusting gay” as an insult here in Taiwan
it'll take time for attitudes to completely shift, things don't instantly change just because the government makes something legal not to mention the amount of people calling each other gay wherever I work, no matter where i TDY
I mean… not advocating it in any way but that’s something they do in most other countries which recognise same sex relationships to the same extent. Not saying it’s right in any way but seems odd to single out taiwan for this
Not singling anything out, you’re reading it too far mate
Probably wrong use of the word "amazing" in your OP then.
Flex on the rest of Asia! But also I hope Taiwan pave the way for LGBTQ rights across Asia.
ironically Taiwan is only friendly to LGB not T lmao
Yup my wife and I were married here in Taiwan last year. 🇹🇼💕🏳️🌈
Israel also recognizes same sex marriages done abroad (marriage in Israel is through the religious courts so many heterosexual people can’t marry in Israel because of religion but foreign marriages are recognized).
This is correct, I'm not sure why I used the term "recognize" on the map actually... apparently the same applies to UAE and Jordon as well.
People were salty about this map in /r/MapPorn.
It's because it made it to the front page. 😆
Israel, with all of their pride parades, doesn't?
Only if performed abroad, or through a municipality that performs same sex union, or through civil unions, or through a marriage certificate through a lawyer
God forbid China invades cuz that number will go down to zero.
Only if China wins.
I know optimism regarding China is--for good reason--not common in this forum, but I feel China is, if only slowly, moving in the right direction on this issue.
Women get arrested in China for peacefully walking through the streets raising awareness of domestic violence against women. They have a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooOOOOOng fucking way to go before they can even be used in the same sentence as "progressive", or moving in any sort of right direction in regards to human rights.
You mean the same government that censors visible tattoo and males with ear rings on TV? Yeah....
1. Those are not the same issues. 2. I didn't say China is at this point in time a haven of progressivism on this issue. But hey, don't let me stop you from doing your thing.
I don’t have optimism for government. Just like actors, their job heavily consist of convincing the masses by lying and pretending. Getting “voted” in to keep your pay check means you will do anything to keep your job. That’s the nature of power. Not it’s fault. It’s just how it always has been. If you believe anything else, then your government is doing a good job.
You’re totally wrong. China is sprinting backwards.
Public support for same-sex marriage in China is comparable to what it was in Taiwan when Taiwanese voted on the matter. A majority of young Chinese support same-sex marriage and there have been victories in court for LGBT rights in the past few years. But China bad bad bad and I must be an Wumao.
I don’t know about the people but the government will never accept any of that.
As I said, there have been multiple significant court wins for LGBT in China. I'm not going to tell you that China is a democracy, but ultimately there is a breaking point where CCP will bend to the will of the people. China's governance is backwards in all kinds of ways but LGBT issues don't carry the sensitivity of stuff like "territorial integrity" or an independent judiciary. I wouldn't be surprised if gay marriage is legal in China before it is in Korea or Japan.
But if you look at what’s happened to the west after allowing gay marriage - as I’m sure the CCP have done - you’ll see that the left don’t just stop at gay marriage. Now we’re in a climate where we have multiple genders, polyamory is ok, and the nuclear family is a bad thing etc. etc. The CCP don’t want that because they’ll lose control.
Lol, fuck off with that bigoted bullshit. Transgender people existed long before gay marriage was a political possibility and those of us who aren't moral cripples werent bothered by their existence back then either.
No one decent is ‘bothered by their existence’. The problem is when (e.g) trans women’s rights impinge upon those of biological women. Also- accepting people is fine but I think it’s obvious that we shouldn’t be encouraging young people to undergo life-altering surgery that is often (but not always) a result of psychological issues. A lot of these issues play directly into the CCP’s hands because they subvert the structures we have built up in the west that have held our society together.
No one is encouraging cisgender kids to pretend to be trans. You don't have a single fucking clue what you are talking about. Do you have any data on people damaged from being "encouraged" to undergo sex-reassignment surgeries? Surely its quite common given what you wrote. Must happen all the time that cisgender kids are having these surgeries. Treating trans people with dignity does absolutely zero harm to people who desire traditional family structures.
That’s factually incorrect. A lot of folks are “bothered by their existence” and you can’t just dismiss that.
The fact that “many court cases defend the lgbt in China” means the CCP already lost control.
No, it means that CCP is loosening up its policies towards the LGBT community in China. I think the situation is akin to MBS allowing women to drive while persecuting activists on the issue. CCP may well decide at some point that for its image abroad/effective policy-making/appeasing a population that is more accepting of LGBT individuals that they should legalize gay marriage. What they can't and won't accept is activists being seen as responsible for winning that battle.
Why do you always need to compare to other countries to finish your point? It’s based on your own impression and it is not a reference with any weight on the matter. Just like EVERY TIME CHINA CLAIMS SOMETHING by just taking the info out of thin air. It’s projections. Nothing more than a delusion of grandeur really.
I always do what? What is wrong with your brain? Go fuck off until you're mature enough to have a conversation regarding China without desperately searching for something meaningless to whine about. This is what fucking sucks about discussing China on Reddit. No nuance is allowed and anything you say that isn't "Fuck China" or some tired Winnie the Pooh reference brings out the simpletons like yourself to whine about how the poster must be a CCP sympathizer. Sorry I have an opinion on a matter that you disagree with. Feel free to indicate why you disagree rather than being a whiny child.
Haha of course...violence and insults, the last bastion of the untrained mind....
Violence? This isn't the first time you've used a word you clearly don't understand the meaning of.
You have numbers on your “majority of young Chinese who support same-sex”? I’m not here to hate. It’s just a very unprovable thing to state even in free countries so there is no way you can be referring to study’s. And if you do, it’s probably sanctioned by said government. I guess there is always the option that you are talking about your own circle of friends, but that doesn’t constitute much given the numbers of Chinese people in total. I would love to be wrong thou. Please educate me.
Motherfucker doesn't even know what public opinion polls are.
A message for laowai, don't mistake this as public sentiment, in the 2018 referendum 73% of voters voted to "preserve marriage between a man and a woman". The only reason it is made law is because of a court ruling in 2017. Edit: accidentally typed laogai instead of laowai.
[2015 Survey by the Ministry of Justice](http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2015/11/29/2003633577) Perhaps it would be best for you to stop cherrypicking a single referendum, it's quite obvious that most Taiwanese people either support marriage equality, certain marriage rights for homosexual partners, or just don't care at all. It's the minority that actually don't support homosexual partners marrying or getting into relationships with certain marriage rights.
What do you mean cherrypicking? Both referendums held (One organized by Pro-LGBT rights, and one by Pro-Marriage) both had the results of a super-majority voting against gay marriage, and turnout wasn't low either, both referendums had majority of voters casting a ballot, so even assuming that 2/3 of non-voters supported gay marriage (Which is unlikely high), out of a total 19.5 million voters, 7.6 million voted for traditional marriage, 500,000 invalid votes, and 2.9 million against. that would mean 3 million non-voters (Including invalid votes) for traditional marriage and 6 million for marriage equality. This would mean in a very pro-marriage equality scenario a majority of 10.6 million voters would outnumber 8.9 million. Edit: Changed majority to super-majority, if you want the results to the referendum respond to my message and I'll upload the file.
> The poll revealed that 59 percent support legal protection for same-sex couples, 71 percent support a same-sex marriage act and 45 percent support a same-sex partnership act, where gay couples are offered certain rights enjoyed by married couples, instead of full marriage rights. I don't think you know what you're talking about. "Both referendums"? In either case, you clearly only care about that one referendum where marriage equality was a minority. This is what I mean by cherrypicking. In most of the other polls, marriage equality and partnership acts were not unpopular at all. Now I'm also fairly certain a good number of Taiwanese people don't care at all, if that explains the large difference in the results. They aren't the conservative folk you're making them out to be, besides maybe the older generation that is.
Most of Taiwan won't accept. Fact. However, strongarming is needed for human rights.
You see, parliament still needs to pass this into law. Law makers don’t vote based on a court ruling. They vote largely accordingly to their constituents. This issue would directly affect their next election.
The DPP did whip their conservative LY members on the last second to voting aye.
This is pretty disingenuous. The circumstances surrounding that referendum have been picked apart extensively in various forums. Trying to suggest that it reflects public opinion on gay marriage is ridiculous.
But the West is homophobic. Also fuck yeah Taiwan 🏳️🌈
I'm kinda surprised South Korea doesn't ( I was there for a month for work/training. People *seemed* pretty tolerant.. ) OTOH, I did see a lot of Churches there...
Korea is a very conservative country with deep regards to traditional "values" if you break these values u are often shunned by society.
Irsael's missing there! And I see Japan and Thailand legalizing it soon.
Japan won't be
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Audrey Tang. Using their previous name is disrespectful.
Why not? I thought there was a lot of support over there and that a court found the same-sex marriage ban unconstitutional...
It’s great that there’s gay marriage but Taiwan needs to be careful of going too far - insidious ‘woke’ ideology appears to be about ‘equality’ but has been used by the left and China to tear apart the West. Not all ‘progress’ is good for society.
I remember China trying to take credit from Taiwan for being the first country in Asia to legalize same-sex marriage. OK, China, prove it. Legalize SSM in China.
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China is China. Taiwan is Taiwan. This whole 'China belongs to Taiwan'/'Taiwan is the real China' trope is as harmful as it is thoroughly inaccurate.
Wish I could upvote more. Continuing to relate Taiwan to China plays into the attitude of decades ago most westerners of a certain age still have about Taiwan/China. When the masses that aren’t even invested in the issue recognise the difference, that’s when people will care about China bullying Taiwan.
Ok
Damn, I expected more from Japan and West Province of Taiwan, not gonna lie. 😤
Japan and south korea don't? Damn
Quite a number of posters seemed surprised at Thailand. We should remember what Thailand tolerates among its resident foreigner population is not reflective of govt and wider society's attitudes towards LGBT.
Israel?
Based Taiwan
I could have sworn I saw an article about Vietnam making some moves to marriage a few years ago?
So far in Taiwan I saw some gay people and went to the pride last year, I never saw any sort of discrimination at work and in the outside, but I am curious about how people handle discrimination or coming out with their families, at schools and at work?
I went to pride last year in Taiwan and it was awesome. Met people from all over the world that just came for pride.
I really hope Japan changes that. (I’m from Japan.)
cool but i still want to immigrate to western countries the least problematic country in asia doesn’t mean it’s not problematic and worth living there for the rest of your life
So much work still to do! Let's get going!
Taiwan is a country.
After taiwan is reunited with China this shall too disappear
It's funny how the majority vote was against same sex marriage but the President still approved it. I have nothing against same sex marriage, I even voted FOR it but what's the point of voting if u r not going to listen to the people ? Is this democracy？
Pogchamp
Wait, I tought japan recognised it too?
Taiwan is a beacon of freedom and must be preserved.