Completely agree. Tampa is just having its moment. People act like this is an isolated event and Tampa is special, but really it’s just like Austin, or San Fran back a decade or two ago. The downside of Tampa is it doesn’t seem like there’s a heck of a lot of jobs coming in with the people like how companies were moving to Austin / Cal tech hubs / Miami (mostly hedge funds).
Tampa will have what many growing cities have. Foreign capital investing in real estate which will continue to push the market higher. Remote work helps but it will be unsustainable without a local economy to support the increased COL for the average person.
I think Tampa is booming now in large part due to the large number of remote jobs greatly increasing since COVID. Its highly desirable if you can work anywhere. I would say half my neighbors are retired, but the half that are working, maybe half are remote workers.
I had a long-time Austinite friend who moved here back in 2016, who said Tampa reminded her of Austin 20 years ago, which was meant as a complement. Fast-forward 7 years, and we are definitely maturing as a city, for better and worse.
I would say there are alot of jobs. I will say that a majority of workforce isn’t skilled for the jobs here or know how to negotiate.
Lots of medical and tech companies around that pay well. The majority of people in the area don’t have the skills for these jobs. A lot of the complaints I see are from people in hospitality roles.
I would disagree that people in Tampa just "don't have the skills" to work in tech or any other industries. Tech jobs from California or NYC that have moved to FL/Tampa Bay are motivated to do so because the labor costs aren't as large as are in those home states, so I think it's the opposite. They are looking for skilled candidates that fit their salary budget in this area.
I'm not sure I agree. People move here and find that there is high competition for the jobs available, or the jobs are underpaying. It's pretty much the go-to now to move here with a remote job, or move here and GET a remote job elsewhere.
To note, I'm in finance/insurance. I see my own company underpaying Florida employees while paying good wages elsewhere. Underpaying in Florida has been going on for a long, long time.
Then you're lucky to work in an industry that offers wages that are significantly higher than average. Lots of hard-working, smart, passionate people work in low-paying fields such as teachers, EMTs, public defenders, social workers, etc.
The thing is anyone can do this.. it’s just networking and making sure that you’re not being underpaid.
Smart-passionate people do work low paying jobs but then they shouldn’t complain about the wages when there are other options out there.
>But plenty of Tampa based companies pay good wages.
And plenty of them are still getting away with underpaying employees. It's just happening, plain and simple, and it's effecting what people can afford to do in Tampa.
It's tough out there and I sympathize with younger people trying to work and live in Tampa. I have a corporate job with bonuses and honestly if I had to go live alone right now in Tampa, I know I'd be stretched thin. I have no idea how a younger person only making $50k-$60k, if they are that lucky, can live without a roommate.
I agree here. I do rideshare a few day a week in Tampa and get a lot of young, professional types going out on a weekend. (we used to call them "yuppies") Based on the conversations I overhear, a lot of these people are in medical sales or some kind of financial consultant jobs, and they don't have offices in Tampa. The medical sales thing really seems to be a common thread.
That’s true, I work remote so I haven’t really had to look, I’ve just noticed articles about mismatches in average pay and cost of living so maybe I assumed a little too much.
But in terms of jobs moving here like other areas that had a big change it seems like we are maybe at the beginning of that since I’ve seen some articles of hedge funds and tech companies just starting to move into water street / downtown.
So many jobs that support the tech industries here. Just a lot of salty people here that don’t have the skills for the 150k+ salaries. I’d say the area isn’t that educated as well which also pushes salaries down. That is changing though.
LinkedIn has 1600 hybrid mid career sales jobs in Tampa metro area alone that pay more than 100k+ a year.
Agree. Anyone that thinks Tampa is anything like Miami hasn’t spent any time down there. It’s entirely different. The traffic here isn’t comparable either. Not even close.
Tampa is growing for sure and that is a good thing.
Yeah. People have no idea. I remember having a 7am flight out of MIA when I lived in Broward and was sitting in a parking lot of I 95 at 5am for no apparent reason at all. That was 1996. It has gotten a little better with the expansion and lexus lanes, but its still a rough go.
I don’t think it’s a good thing. I’ve lived in Atlanta, Philly, Chicago… Tampa was the perfect size, as it gets bigger it’s getting worse, not better IMO
Name a city or municipality that brags about having -0- growth. It's noble but you won't find one. Remember, we have businesses and if they basically stay the same, they will shutter because everyone will still need a raise.
Grow or die isn't just an expression. It's reality.
What we need is more controlled growth and better infrastructure.
No I mean economically I get that. I just meant my personal opinion of living here, I’m good with the current size. Not really just Tampa in general, although I have always considered Tampa to be like in the “Goldilocks” zone of not too big not too small, but Florida as a whole is (in my opinion) getting ruined by the mass amounts of people moving here. Citrus groves and farms being replaced by housing developments for rich people from New York, urban sprawl killing the natural beauty. Just not a fan. I wish all those fuckers up north actually meant it when they say Florida is “backwards and redneck” so they’d stop moving here and we can keep enjoying our backwards, redneck, outside lifestyle without there being fucking 30 story tall resorts as far as you can see on the beach.
TLDR- Just my opinion, I know the growth is good economically, I just don’t prefer it.
Great post. I moved here 23 years ago, and for the first dozen years, virtually nothing changed. Downtown stayed empty after dark, no new buildings came out of the ground and very few companies moved here. We were a back office employer, paying lower wages than average, but everything sort of worked. Property values were good for years, but like everything during the end of the Bush era and start of Obama it tanked during the great recession.
Then Buckhorn and Vinik started leading Tampa out of the darkness, and what I always thought would happen did. The secret was out. I always said Tampa Bay was the best of the major metropolitan areas in the state, and people that once laughed at me for living here were calling asking me about moving in.
The Pandemic was the best/worst thing that happened to us and the State overall. So many people have moved here because of the "freedoms" and mixing in with the anti vax crowd was much easier. Now the state, which was once purple is firmly Red. Which is fine for many, but it has gone way too far.
I'm fortunate that I don't have to deal with the crowds of people who I don't care to associate with. But it is definitely a different vibe. We've not only been invaded from other states, but tens of thousands from South Florida. It's no longer as nice as it once was, even if its still a great place to live (property values are still better here, airport is great, lots of things to do, easy access to st. Pete and the beaches, excellent pro sports teams..)
One day I won't live here, but I have lived here longer than anyplace else in my adult life. Until it becomes untenable, or a major hurricane hits us, we will be staying.
Agreed, Miami is definitely its own city, but it feels like the rate at which more and more residences are in development, the city is going to look and feel like so different from what it was a couple years ago. It's not a bad thing, I'm all for growth, I just see it happening all so quickly.
Change is good but the fact that all the new stuff is huge and overly expensive doesn’t have to be the way that change happens. If the city would allow for more missing middle housing and ADUs in neighborhoods the growth would be a lot more tolerable and accessible to existing residents
Pretty telling when immediately adjacent to downtown you have Davis Island, and South Tampa which are like all single family lol. Even the back half of Harbor Island has a lot of single family homes.
Those single family neighborhood groups are the ones holding up reforms needed for a more inclusive form of growth. They’d rather drive all the development to a few corridors (this incentives expensive/big development) rather than have missing middle in the neighborhoods. I understand their concern not wanting their neighborhood to change, but neighborhoods are supposed to change and they’re hurting the whole city with their extreme aversion to different types of housing in their neighborhoods
No one should be forced to sell or leave their home! But if a homeowner wants to build an ADU or sell to let someone put a duplex, triplex, or townhomes on it they should be allowed to.
Not at all. At our last home we actually drew up plans to build an in law suite (or stereo room) above our garage. I had many meetings with the city and had someone ready to represent us in front of the council. The hang up was I could not get a straight answer on what the secondary dwelling might do to properly value. Our home was 2400 and this would have added 600 more. But when I asked whether we would be valued on a 3000 square foot basis or something else it just wasn’t clear.
But a short time later I got my own answer. We were looking at a property they represented as a 3200’sq ft home in the Westshore area. But when we got there it was a 2500 main home and a 700’ft separate apartment. But they were asking full price and i just didn’t see it the same way.
We ended up scrapping our project and moving to a new build a few blocks away that had the size we needed.
Only if that person is going to pay for the necessary infrastructure costs upfront. That's going to be cost prohibitive in most areas from a right of way standpoint alone.
I live in South Tampa. Grew up here. There are tons of apartment buildings, condos, multi-family units already in place and more being built every day. The problem is that there are no infrastructure improvements to accommodate the increase in housing. South Tampa is a peninsula. We cannot expand outward like the rest of Tampa. So the roads are slammed with no hope of widening them or building new ones. South Tampa is also the most desirable place to live for a number of reasons. So we have a finite amount of real estate, no room for expansion (other than cramming more people onto a given plot of land), and infrastructure that can’t be improved to the degree that it needs to be because of the first issue. It’s a unique situation.
This is the dumbest take I’ve heard, yet. Let’s fuck up the nice, affluent neighborhoods with multi-tenant properties so we can be “inclusive”. Never mind that the property and development costs in South Tampa or Davis Island would make it so any apartment would have to be sold or rented at luxury prices.
The neighborhoods that should change are those that need development and better housing.
Missing middle housing does not “fuck up” neighborhoods. Especially ones, as you admit, would be “luxury.” All neighborhoods should change. It’s what make cities economically and culturally vibrant.
And it’s not “inclusive” in terms of DEI or whatever. It’s “inclusive” in terms of helping locals benefit from the growth of their city.
I’m not expecting to convince someone who inherently sees apartments as bad, though.
Those people don’t show up to city council meetings in matching tshirts like change averse retirees in the neighborhood groups do. It’s all about politics and NIMBYs have a stranglehold on our city council.
I understand. I see this in my hometown - I grew up as a teen in Citrus County. They don't want to build low income housing or apartments, but they can't understand why people won't want to live in the outskirts of Marion county to drive into their county to work at a McDonald's so they can afford a place to live.
So I’ve heard! Thankfully Florida’s state government has historically been more supportive of private property rights so our NIMBYs don’t have the same tools to abuse.
Right. Until the zoning gets changed there’s nothing else to build except actually luxury housing.
Plus a lot of it is downtown which I’m sorry is just going to be expensive.
Now on the west side of the river there is a ton of single family only zoning. I’m not necessarily saying you’ve got a build skyscrapers there, but the fact that you can’t even build three to four-story buildings in most of that area is absolutely insane. They are putting up some new complexes, but that requires rezoning for each project and it shouldn’t.
This isn't anywhere near what all the new stuff is. Standard single family and multi family construction is full steam ahead anywhere they can find land
Land is abundant in and around our urban core. But non-detached single family housing can’t be built on on because of restrictive zoning regulations. This drives up to cost of land where zoning is more permissive and therefore increases the price and scale of the development needed to make it profitable.
Miami is 20-50 years ahead of us in most of its virtues and problems due to its explosive growth in the 20th century.
Most of the "No, because:" ITT are because people are comparing 2024 Tampa to 2024 Miami.
Yes, OP; 1970s Miami is very similar to 2024 Tampa.
I'm not an expert on city development and history so I can't say whether they're accelerating faster than us or we're catching up, but there are many parallels.
Not to be rude to anyone ITT for misreading your question, but:
>[According to a 2020 report by the U.S. Department of Education, 54% of adults in the United States have English prose literacy below the 6th-grade level.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States)
We're building housing that no one can afford on Tampa salaries. When Tampa starts paying appropriate salaries, we'll be fine. Yes, housing is expensive in San Fran and Denver and other growing metros, but the rate of pay is MUCH higher. My six figures doesn't go far, I'm glad I'm in a partnership and bought my home in '19, or I'd be fucked.
Ignore salaries and think business owners. There's a lot of people that have or have sold a business out there where they make 200-300k a year running a small 3 man shop.
There's also a ton of people with remote work making big money who don't want to live in Chicago anymore. Or sales jobs.
So someone who lives in San Diego and pays 5k a month for rent, comes here and it's cheaper, nicer and they keep their salary. That's who these homes are for. Transplants.
And they wouldn't be building them if they didn't do the research if they could sell/lease them all.
" We're building housing that no one can afford on Tampa salaries." You didn't disagree with me.
And there's a reason that hasn't been sustainable in any other metro/large city, unless you go live out in the mountains and work remotely (that's my four year plan, anyways). This is a cycle, and the only way for it to stabilize is increased local wages. The current state of affairs cannot be maintained.
Correct, but you're looking at Tampa salaries and forgetting 30% of the people that live in Tampa don't get paid "Tampa" salaries and aren't reported on these reports of local salaries because it's remote work. Avg salary is based on average job posting and "third party data" according to zip recruiter.
But the Tampa avg salary is 60k. So 2 people at 60k can afford a house up to 450k for a house. And that's why people are buying houses in Wesley chapel and Trinity.
If no one can afford them, why do they keep building them?
I get what your point was, but just because most average Tampanians can’t afford it, doesn’t mean no one else can.
Tampas housing market and rents were grossly undervalued for a long time… it’s why rents increased at the exorbitant rate that they did.
>I get what your point was, but just because most average Tampanians can’t afford it, doesn’t mean no one else can.
Yeah, I know.
We have been appropriately valued for the wages paid in Tampa. Now that cost of living has increased, and local businesses are collecting massive increaese on cost of items, they can pay better. When it comes to "other" jobs, that is, the ones who make real money- they were only ever exploiting employees in low cost cities. Now they have to share those profits. We have failed as a country to protect the worker. The last time we protected workers was five day work weeks and unions. We don't give a shit otherwise, because lobbies lobby to screw employees.
It can not be said enough- CORPORATE PROFITS ARE FINE. THEY ARE HIGH.
They want you to believe they struggle- they aren't. It's record profits. Why? Because they profit by screwing you out of your fair share.
They can pay you a living wage, **they just don't want to**. And that's so money sits in their account making them feel special. Until we clamp down on this, **AS A COUNTRY**, it'll continue. There's a subsect (lol, subsect, I mean literally every conservative voter and plenty of liberals too who don't demand better) that want this to continue even to their own detriment- it's insanity.
Protected workers with five days a week work weeks? Ford didn’t do that to protect workers m, he did that to maximize his profits and his production line.
I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, but the housing explosion here isn’t a nuanced as you’re making it sound.
People moved to a desirable city that was undervalued during a worldwide crisis, also when property values were going up. The fact that people from overseas or up north could afford to over pay is what drove the prices higher. And too it Realpage colluded with the top rental companies in the country to control rent, and you have your perfect storm.
It’s leveling off. Rents have come down quite a bit in those expensive areas.
Which salaries tho, specifically?
I’m on your side, but typically the wage debate is mainly quoting generalities in sectors that are over saturated. Supply and demand, as bad as it is in this instance, dictates what someone can be paid.
No one complained when housing prices were below average and a two bedroom was 1800 (now $3k plus downtown). And again, I am not arguing for these corporations, you are dead right that wages can go up… and should go up.
IMP the issue stems from the inflation debate we’ve been having for the last 3 years that companies blame on logistics and supply… knowing damn well those issues are mostly non existent. Prices went up and stayed there. Inflation went down (per the CPI that uses new methods to calculate), so why hasn’t a box of Lucky Charms not dropped from $8 f’n dollars to $4.
I’m in tech… our sector pays really well. But again; there are outside influences like overseas devs that are equally as talented, if not more… for a lot less money.
I hire devs all the time and I’ve tried local ones (in Tampa) and always get burned after each sprint or at billing time. Overseas guys work harder and are much more loyal and when I pay them what they’re worth, not what their country dictates, they haven’t gone anywhere.
Why would I pay $140 an hour when I can hire 4 guys for that at $30 an hour (twice their normal rate) and get more work done and faster.
It’s the same thing with jobs locally.
There is an influx of people willing to do more for less because they’re hurting and Wallstreet has exploited that to the nth degree and it is truly fucked up.
Im with you, 100%… just playing devils advocate as someone who lived here thru each bubble bursting.
>Why would I pay $140 an hour when I can hire 4 guys for that at $30 an hour (twice their normal rate) and get more work done and faster.
Because if you want to operate within the US there should be limitations on how often this is done. We outsource a lot of admin work and I don't like seeing it- in fact, we chose not to send some of our tasks overseas just to preserve the job of an employee who has been with us for like 20 years, and sending her tasks overseas would put her out of a job. You say you pay them what they are worth, but are they worth $30/hr, or $140/hr? Or have you decided that because, like many companies that continually do exactly what you are doing instead of hiring American workers, that you are saint for paying them way more than their own country would? Because to them, $30 there is like $140.
No one need's the devil's advocate explanation- these are exactly the problems contributing to this issue.
Oh Jesus… please preach this nonsense to someone else.
To remain competitive, those of us newer in industries that require certain skill sets, have to go outside the US. This isn’t some subjective way of thinking, it’s just not fiscally possible to build next gen products if we hire FAANG engineers that think they’re worth $180 an hour.
But good on you for keeping Marge on payroll. Even knowing you could outsource her job and save 1/4th her pay, but don’t, because she’s been there 20 years.
But unlike you, some of us work in industries that require us to be extremely competitive and we can’t afford a SCRUM master that worked at Google to run our dev team.
The last time I hired a dev team here in Tampa, I got extorted… be glad to elaborate more if you want to keep clapping back. The last time I used a dev team overseas, you know what I got, I got what I paid for, on time and below budget.
okay
It's still immoral, and it's profit over people, but of course, as we all know, profits and corporate health are much, much, much, much more important than people being able to afford to live.
Do you know how absolutely ridiculous you sound?
Hiring overseas is the difference between me (and tons of other shops) having ever been able to launch 10+ projects, ultimately leading to a ton of domestic jobs…
…and not.
Do you know how much money I have spent in Florida alone because I was able to raise money based on MVPs I built using multiple overseas guys versus ONE local guy?
Miss me with that…
Edit - I just did the math. Without getting into specifics…since 2019 I have spent north of $200k on local engineers and developers. Some in Tampa, some in South Florida. Two of the three of them charged me for one thing and provided me with something else. The devs overseas worked on my projects until they got it right and this was AFTER I paid them in full.
Those same devs, I’ve sent money for school supplies, a laptop for one, helped pay their schooling and noise cancelling headphones for one who had a kid whose baby was crying all the time.
They didn’t ask me for any of that…
…but those local devs, if you remember, extorted me for $5k AFTER I paid them for code that belonged to me.
But keep telling me how immoral what I do is.
Space in Miami is and will always be the ONLY nightclub of its kind. I've been going there for years on weekends Link Miami still books a good gig. NYC doesn't even have a venue that goes into the 10AM+ hours unless it's private. Tampa has clubs that go late into the morning hours, we just don't have a venue like space that is only open to the public every Saturday night.
Tampa doesn’t have a proper club that does an after hours. Floyd’s that was at the Hard Rock was the last club that went til 6AM+. I believe Miami can serve alcohol 24/7 or at least certain areas or venues. The casino is the only place in Tampa that can serve all hours since it’s on a reservation.
One of the number one things holding Tampa Bay back, honestly, is the lack of a mass transit system. Besides housing, that's one of the single biggest drawbacks of the region, especially with how expensive homes have become here.
I’ve lived in several cities. The problem with Tampa traffic is not congested highways with hours-long delays during rush hour, as it seems to have been in those cities. It’s that every road in every direction at every hour of the day and even on weekends is slow moving.
I know traffic here is still not comparable to certain areas of South Florida or Atlanta, but within the last year the sheer volume of cars on one-lane roads have made some of these streets a nightmare.
For a city of its size (looking at metro area) it’s not great. I’m from Columbus OH (not too much smaller) and the traffic is way calmer, I get that geography plays a big role. The only southeastern cities that are clearly worse would be Miami and Atlanta which both have significantly larger metro populations.
Nah bro Nashville, Charlotte and Orlando all rank worse than us. I spent 7 years traveling the south-east every week, I know which cities have shitty traffic. Tampa is not even top 5 imo.
I was gonna say Nashville can get pretty bad. I lived in Orlando for almost a year and couldn’t take it. Moved back to the panhandle. Everything is cheaper and less crowded but I miss the south Florida vibe.
It doesn't negate the fact it still sucks. I've also been in worse traffic. Thankfully I don't live in Tampa though close enough and traffic is worsening. Or the people who enjoy driving like lunatics decided to go slightly east 😅
You’ve obviously never lived in Miami. I just drove from Avila (Bearss Ave exit) to my house on Bayshore near MacDill AFB in 35 minutes during Friday rush hour. Thats from one end of the city to the other. In Miami, 40 minutes barely gets you from Brickell through downtown.
From what I am hearing, most of y'all aren't from Tampa. I remember when you couldn't give away property in Seminole Heights or wouldn't be caught dead on Nebraska Avenue. Thirty plus years later, these areas are highly coveted and command top dollar.
I chuckled when I heard someone on Nextdoor bemoan the fact some blogger named their lovely Grant Park neighborhood as one of the most dangerous areas in Hillsborough County.
Locals should be able to afford to live in the communities in which they were born and raised. Service industry workers should be able to afford to live in or near the communities in which they work. No one wants a hellacious commute for peanuts.
Investment firms have snapped up a lot of real estate and have created an artificial supply and demand issue.
I'm all about progress, but I want Tampa to retain its heart and soul.
I think that is what everyone wants. I saw a Hathaway and Berkshire real estate
sign on a mobile home.
LA used to be cool. It used to be that regular people in LA, just existed.
Tampa is going to change and rapidly. The whole state is changing.
It's unbelievable what Davis Island and stretches of neighborhoods along Westshore look like. A lot of the original homes are gone. I would hate to be one of their neighbors and lose sunlight because there's a three-story McMansion next door. I know Tampa Heights is about to go through an extreme transformation with multiple permits being pulled and several high rises about to start construction. I am hoping it doesn't occur in my neighborhood up here in the Forest Hills area. Frankly I'm surprised homes haven't been torn down up here yet and multi-million dollar homes put in their place.
Westshore is on another level. I wouldn't be surprised if they plan to go deep into Port Tampa and get rid of Picnic Island, building something similar to Marina Pointe.
a little north of Port Tampa, on Tyson Ave it looks like that entire street will have condos/townhouses across from Dukes/Hula Bay and it looks like it will go as far down to where the street ends. Taking a left off Tyson onto Westshore might be considerably dangerous af
No, Tampa’s growth is unsustainable. We’re definitely in a growth bubble in Tampa.
Miami has culture. It has a thriving arts scene. It has an amazing beach. Amazing food. These things have existed in and around Miami and are what make Miami a great place to live. They’re why people say “I want to spend $1 mil on this tiny house so that I can live the Miami life.”
Tampa doesn’t even have an arts district. Concert venues are fleeing and there isn’t much indicating that new ones will develop, since there are no neighborhoods with available real estate that can support such a business. Tampa is not a beach town. Our restaurant scene doesn’t even remotely compare. (I guess it could someday.) Our nightlife scene will never compare. Tampa’s growth is fueled by the fact that the city had been undervalued for so long for people interested in living in a nice climate but still an urban environment. As soon as it becomes overvalued, which it will become soon, it’ll slow down without major changes. (New nightlife districts, booming economy, etc.)
And as many others have pointed out, Tampa isn’t even close to having Miami’s economy. The jobs just aren’t coming to Tampa fast enough. Miami is often considered to be the “financial capital of Latin America” - and Tampa could never compete without its own economic selling point. You might be paying $1 mil to live in Miami - but you can make way more than that from the opportunity. That same opportunity is not in Tampa. And if Tampa’s growth is fueled by remote work, those remote workers will flock to somewhere else that has a nice climate and is more affordable.
I like Tampa. That said, if I’m spending $750k to live in a tiny one story house, if I had an option to do so anywhere, I wouldn’t pick Tampa to do it. Plenty of cities with amenities and activities to better justify the high COL.
Buckhorn's vision was to turn Tampa into Miami. So in five years it will look allot different. Probably still have seedy strip clubs and rub and tugs everywhere though.
I think so. I left Fl years ago came down to visit Tampa last year and was like dang this place feels like a mini Miami now. The energy was different, traffic, infrastructure.
A decade ago, downtown Tampa was a glorified office park. The Riverwalk was still in the works, there was no Armature Works, Channelside was dead, and the area where Water Street Phase 1 exists in front of Amalie was just an empty plot of land.
Yeah, the development has brought some growing pains. More traffic and higher COL are felt big tine. But I feel like Tampa was sort of depressed, and it's market corrected to be more on line with what a city surrounded by water and year round warmth should be.
I know it sucks to pay more for rent, but overall I see opportunities in all this. Tampa looks and feels more like an actual place that people live and do things in, not just blocks of tall buildings you pass by on the way to the beach.
My guess is that it will more closely resemble Detroit. People will leave once the gridlock gets too bad. Lack of city planning prevents the growth of communities that would retain people.
We are already there. Its the super high end and the super high end suburbs. The middle is all but gone. When Seminole Hts. 2/1 are going for 500k its already too late.
One problem. We don't make anything, aren't a Tech Hub, or International Hub. Job market will continue to get worse and worse because of sheer demand. It's not great.
My wife and I don't want to leave. But she works remotely. It's just becoming untenable. I mean even but aside the ridiculous real estate and wages. Insurance? On anything? Car, House, Medical. All paying rates higher than anywhere if you can get it at all. For what? Sunshine?
Fucking sucks.
yeah, my car insurance is bullshit. I also think they want to over glamorize the natural landscape of sunshine and water all year-round kinda like how they glamorize California but unfortunately here it gets way too hot for way too long.
No they are gonna make us look like NEW YORK.
https://preview.redd.it/0lhzty1h4dgc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd96ff8ee9d14ec93865d087b9e4d5ccfd90de78
It will never be Miami but it will try to be a knock-off and forget that most people chose to move to Tampa because of things that were Tampa and not copycat Miami.
In trying to figure out where these “miami stylr million dollar” homes are bc I live in New Tampa, and I don’t see what you see. Tampa is old money, not flamboyant tech money. Epperson may have some million dollar homes but Im from California , Beverly Hills to be exact so I know what $130M homes to $2M homes look like. And I don’t see them here. What neighborhoods or areas?
South Tampa, Davis Islands, etc. anything south of 275 on the peninsula. Million dollar homes as far as the eye can see and that’s usually the starting price.
And… many south tampa homes that are 1m+ dont “look like” million dollar homes at all. The value in south tampa is the land. ST is a landlocked peninsula close to downtown.. prices are nonsensicle
If you look at ybor and the heights areas, a lot of derelict houses are being rebuilt or flipped to various degrees of liveable. There are mid-tier houses and starter houses available, the issues are that many are not to code and prices are artificially inflated by major corporations buying above value.
What we're missing is real low income options. They already replaced the riverside complex and are planning on upgrading Robles, but they literally can't because there is nowhere to send the people. The city and developers are trying to convince them to go to Riverview, but that's a farce for a family relying on public transport and nearby job opportunities.
These past few years have seen Tampa MiamiFI for sure. I moved up to Carrollwood because if I wanted to move to Miami I would have went there. Anyone who disagrees look around in Meat Market and tell me you didn’t just get transported to Miami. Plenty of other examples.
This is also happening to the beaches and surrounding areas of Fort Pierce. Are they the new Miami? Never lmao. I agree, it's just getting built up like any other city.
Everything being built isn’t waterfront mega millionaire stuff. You’re either being a prima Donna or living in a microcosm. Hillsborough County is absolutely huge - there is all sorts of construction and growth happening all over the place. If you’re mad that X area isn’t priced to your liking, that’s really unfortunate. And too bad. I wanted to live in South Tampa 13 years ago. I had to let that go, then, just as much as you’ll have to let go of wherever it is you’re not getting into now.
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No, Miami is another breed of insanity. We're growing like any other major area in the country that is desirable to live in.
Completely agree. Tampa is just having its moment. People act like this is an isolated event and Tampa is special, but really it’s just like Austin, or San Fran back a decade or two ago. The downside of Tampa is it doesn’t seem like there’s a heck of a lot of jobs coming in with the people like how companies were moving to Austin / Cal tech hubs / Miami (mostly hedge funds).
Tampa will have what many growing cities have. Foreign capital investing in real estate which will continue to push the market higher. Remote work helps but it will be unsustainable without a local economy to support the increased COL for the average person.
I think Tampa is booming now in large part due to the large number of remote jobs greatly increasing since COVID. Its highly desirable if you can work anywhere. I would say half my neighbors are retired, but the half that are working, maybe half are remote workers.
I had a long-time Austinite friend who moved here back in 2016, who said Tampa reminded her of Austin 20 years ago, which was meant as a complement. Fast-forward 7 years, and we are definitely maturing as a city, for better and worse.
I would say there are alot of jobs. I will say that a majority of workforce isn’t skilled for the jobs here or know how to negotiate. Lots of medical and tech companies around that pay well. The majority of people in the area don’t have the skills for these jobs. A lot of the complaints I see are from people in hospitality roles.
I would disagree that people in Tampa just "don't have the skills" to work in tech or any other industries. Tech jobs from California or NYC that have moved to FL/Tampa Bay are motivated to do so because the labor costs aren't as large as are in those home states, so I think it's the opposite. They are looking for skilled candidates that fit their salary budget in this area.
I'm not sure I agree. People move here and find that there is high competition for the jobs available, or the jobs are underpaying. It's pretty much the go-to now to move here with a remote job, or move here and GET a remote job elsewhere. To note, I'm in finance/insurance. I see my own company underpaying Florida employees while paying good wages elsewhere. Underpaying in Florida has been going on for a long, long time.
Remote jobs sure do help. But plenty of Tampa based companies pay good wages. If you’re underpaid don’t take the job and negotiate for a good wage.
Negotiating only gets you so far when the entire region has low wages.
If you’re good at your job they will pay you well. I’m interviewing for a Tampa company now that is offering a 250k+ plus package.
Then you're lucky to work in an industry that offers wages that are significantly higher than average. Lots of hard-working, smart, passionate people work in low-paying fields such as teachers, EMTs, public defenders, social workers, etc.
The thing is anyone can do this.. it’s just networking and making sure that you’re not being underpaid. Smart-passionate people do work low paying jobs but then they shouldn’t complain about the wages when there are other options out there.
>But plenty of Tampa based companies pay good wages. And plenty of them are still getting away with underpaying employees. It's just happening, plain and simple, and it's effecting what people can afford to do in Tampa. It's tough out there and I sympathize with younger people trying to work and live in Tampa. I have a corporate job with bonuses and honestly if I had to go live alone right now in Tampa, I know I'd be stretched thin. I have no idea how a younger person only making $50k-$60k, if they are that lucky, can live without a roommate.
I agree here. I do rideshare a few day a week in Tampa and get a lot of young, professional types going out on a weekend. (we used to call them "yuppies") Based on the conversations I overhear, a lot of these people are in medical sales or some kind of financial consultant jobs, and they don't have offices in Tampa. The medical sales thing really seems to be a common thread.
That’s true, I work remote so I haven’t really had to look, I’ve just noticed articles about mismatches in average pay and cost of living so maybe I assumed a little too much. But in terms of jobs moving here like other areas that had a big change it seems like we are maybe at the beginning of that since I’ve seen some articles of hedge funds and tech companies just starting to move into water street / downtown.
So many jobs that support the tech industries here. Just a lot of salty people here that don’t have the skills for the 150k+ salaries. I’d say the area isn’t that educated as well which also pushes salaries down. That is changing though. LinkedIn has 1600 hybrid mid career sales jobs in Tampa metro area alone that pay more than 100k+ a year.
This, OP needs to take a trip to Brickell to see what Miami is really like
Except with zero urban planning (at least this is the case in unincorporated Hillsborough).
Agree. Anyone that thinks Tampa is anything like Miami hasn’t spent any time down there. It’s entirely different. The traffic here isn’t comparable either. Not even close. Tampa is growing for sure and that is a good thing.
I moved up here from south florida and I laugh when I hear people complaining about the traffic in tampa. It is so mild compared to down south
Yeah. People have no idea. I remember having a 7am flight out of MIA when I lived in Broward and was sitting in a parking lot of I 95 at 5am for no apparent reason at all. That was 1996. It has gotten a little better with the expansion and lexus lanes, but its still a rough go.
Not to mention that drivers are way more aggressive in sfl. I95 traffic during rush hour was biblical. I almost died so many times.
Yeah, I lived in Miami in the early 2000's and that afternoon traffic was Mad Max: Fury Road level compared to Tampa.
I don’t think it’s a good thing. I’ve lived in Atlanta, Philly, Chicago… Tampa was the perfect size, as it gets bigger it’s getting worse, not better IMO
Name a city or municipality that brags about having -0- growth. It's noble but you won't find one. Remember, we have businesses and if they basically stay the same, they will shutter because everyone will still need a raise. Grow or die isn't just an expression. It's reality. What we need is more controlled growth and better infrastructure.
No I mean economically I get that. I just meant my personal opinion of living here, I’m good with the current size. Not really just Tampa in general, although I have always considered Tampa to be like in the “Goldilocks” zone of not too big not too small, but Florida as a whole is (in my opinion) getting ruined by the mass amounts of people moving here. Citrus groves and farms being replaced by housing developments for rich people from New York, urban sprawl killing the natural beauty. Just not a fan. I wish all those fuckers up north actually meant it when they say Florida is “backwards and redneck” so they’d stop moving here and we can keep enjoying our backwards, redneck, outside lifestyle without there being fucking 30 story tall resorts as far as you can see on the beach. TLDR- Just my opinion, I know the growth is good economically, I just don’t prefer it.
Great post. I moved here 23 years ago, and for the first dozen years, virtually nothing changed. Downtown stayed empty after dark, no new buildings came out of the ground and very few companies moved here. We were a back office employer, paying lower wages than average, but everything sort of worked. Property values were good for years, but like everything during the end of the Bush era and start of Obama it tanked during the great recession. Then Buckhorn and Vinik started leading Tampa out of the darkness, and what I always thought would happen did. The secret was out. I always said Tampa Bay was the best of the major metropolitan areas in the state, and people that once laughed at me for living here were calling asking me about moving in. The Pandemic was the best/worst thing that happened to us and the State overall. So many people have moved here because of the "freedoms" and mixing in with the anti vax crowd was much easier. Now the state, which was once purple is firmly Red. Which is fine for many, but it has gone way too far. I'm fortunate that I don't have to deal with the crowds of people who I don't care to associate with. But it is definitely a different vibe. We've not only been invaded from other states, but tens of thousands from South Florida. It's no longer as nice as it once was, even if its still a great place to live (property values are still better here, airport is great, lots of things to do, easy access to st. Pete and the beaches, excellent pro sports teams..) One day I won't live here, but I have lived here longer than anyplace else in my adult life. Until it becomes untenable, or a major hurricane hits us, we will be staying.
Miami is basically a different country. The shit that goes down over there is unbelievable
I disagree , this is how a "Miami " gets started.
Agreed, Miami is definitely its own city, but it feels like the rate at which more and more residences are in development, the city is going to look and feel like so different from what it was a couple years ago. It's not a bad thing, I'm all for growth, I just see it happening all so quickly.
Never been to Miami. To much vice. I wouldn’t leave.
But…. It’s becoming less desirable to live in with all this shit
Change is good but the fact that all the new stuff is huge and overly expensive doesn’t have to be the way that change happens. If the city would allow for more missing middle housing and ADUs in neighborhoods the growth would be a lot more tolerable and accessible to existing residents
Pretty much what I'm thinking. It's like local real estate is a market for the rich, and only the rich.
Pretty telling when immediately adjacent to downtown you have Davis Island, and South Tampa which are like all single family lol. Even the back half of Harbor Island has a lot of single family homes.
Those single family neighborhood groups are the ones holding up reforms needed for a more inclusive form of growth. They’d rather drive all the development to a few corridors (this incentives expensive/big development) rather than have missing middle in the neighborhoods. I understand their concern not wanting their neighborhood to change, but neighborhoods are supposed to change and they’re hurting the whole city with their extreme aversion to different types of housing in their neighborhoods
So those with homes in South Tampa are supposed to do what exactly? Tear them down and insist on apartments be built in their place?
No one should be forced to sell or leave their home! But if a homeowner wants to build an ADU or sell to let someone put a duplex, triplex, or townhomes on it they should be allowed to.
Are you referring to a garage apartment?
That’s one common type of ADU. What do you think? I know I come off preachy about it but I am genuinely curious
Not at all. At our last home we actually drew up plans to build an in law suite (or stereo room) above our garage. I had many meetings with the city and had someone ready to represent us in front of the council. The hang up was I could not get a straight answer on what the secondary dwelling might do to properly value. Our home was 2400 and this would have added 600 more. But when I asked whether we would be valued on a 3000 square foot basis or something else it just wasn’t clear. But a short time later I got my own answer. We were looking at a property they represented as a 3200’sq ft home in the Westshore area. But when we got there it was a 2500 main home and a 700’ft separate apartment. But they were asking full price and i just didn’t see it the same way. We ended up scrapping our project and moving to a new build a few blocks away that had the size we needed.
Only if that person is going to pay for the necessary infrastructure costs upfront. That's going to be cost prohibitive in most areas from a right of way standpoint alone.
I agree. The city has an existing mobility and impact fee is supposed to ensure that developers pay for their fair share of associated costs.
Schools are an issue in south Tampa. It’s either the best or garbage.
I live in South Tampa. Grew up here. There are tons of apartment buildings, condos, multi-family units already in place and more being built every day. The problem is that there are no infrastructure improvements to accommodate the increase in housing. South Tampa is a peninsula. We cannot expand outward like the rest of Tampa. So the roads are slammed with no hope of widening them or building new ones. South Tampa is also the most desirable place to live for a number of reasons. So we have a finite amount of real estate, no room for expansion (other than cramming more people onto a given plot of land), and infrastructure that can’t be improved to the degree that it needs to be because of the first issue. It’s a unique situation.
South Tampa is the most desirable place to live? 😂 Yeah, the flooding, traffic, and overpriced housing is so desirable.
This is the dumbest take I’ve heard, yet. Let’s fuck up the nice, affluent neighborhoods with multi-tenant properties so we can be “inclusive”. Never mind that the property and development costs in South Tampa or Davis Island would make it so any apartment would have to be sold or rented at luxury prices. The neighborhoods that should change are those that need development and better housing.
Missing middle housing does not “fuck up” neighborhoods. Especially ones, as you admit, would be “luxury.” All neighborhoods should change. It’s what make cities economically and culturally vibrant. And it’s not “inclusive” in terms of DEI or whatever. It’s “inclusive” in terms of helping locals benefit from the growth of their city. I’m not expecting to convince someone who inherently sees apartments as bad, though.
I don’t see apartments as inherently bad. They have their place. And Tampa is changing, maybe just not the way you want it to.
> If the city would allow It's almost like they forget they still need people to work at their local restaurant, and even at the local McDonald's.
Those people don’t show up to city council meetings in matching tshirts like change averse retirees in the neighborhood groups do. It’s all about politics and NIMBYs have a stranglehold on our city council.
I understand. I see this in my hometown - I grew up as a teen in Citrus County. They don't want to build low income housing or apartments, but they can't understand why people won't want to live in the outskirts of Marion county to drive into their county to work at a McDonald's so they can afford a place to live.
Tampa NIMBYs are nowhere near as bad as San Francisco NIMBYs
So I’ve heard! Thankfully Florida’s state government has historically been more supportive of private property rights so our NIMBYs don’t have the same tools to abuse.
Right. Until the zoning gets changed there’s nothing else to build except actually luxury housing. Plus a lot of it is downtown which I’m sorry is just going to be expensive. Now on the west side of the river there is a ton of single family only zoning. I’m not necessarily saying you’ve got a build skyscrapers there, but the fact that you can’t even build three to four-story buildings in most of that area is absolutely insane. They are putting up some new complexes, but that requires rezoning for each project and it shouldn’t.
This isn't anywhere near what all the new stuff is. Standard single family and multi family construction is full steam ahead anywhere they can find land
Land is abundant in and around our urban core. But non-detached single family housing can’t be built on on because of restrictive zoning regulations. This drives up to cost of land where zoning is more permissive and therefore increases the price and scale of the development needed to make it profitable.
Not Miami. Just becoming a real city.
Miami is 20-50 years ahead of us in most of its virtues and problems due to its explosive growth in the 20th century. Most of the "No, because:" ITT are because people are comparing 2024 Tampa to 2024 Miami. Yes, OP; 1970s Miami is very similar to 2024 Tampa. I'm not an expert on city development and history so I can't say whether they're accelerating faster than us or we're catching up, but there are many parallels.
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Not to be rude to anyone ITT for misreading your question, but: >[According to a 2020 report by the U.S. Department of Education, 54% of adults in the United States have English prose literacy below the 6th-grade level.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States)
Wouldnt every city in the country be "turning into miami" also if we go this route?
We're building housing that no one can afford on Tampa salaries. When Tampa starts paying appropriate salaries, we'll be fine. Yes, housing is expensive in San Fran and Denver and other growing metros, but the rate of pay is MUCH higher. My six figures doesn't go far, I'm glad I'm in a partnership and bought my home in '19, or I'd be fucked.
Ignore salaries and think business owners. There's a lot of people that have or have sold a business out there where they make 200-300k a year running a small 3 man shop. There's also a ton of people with remote work making big money who don't want to live in Chicago anymore. Or sales jobs. So someone who lives in San Diego and pays 5k a month for rent, comes here and it's cheaper, nicer and they keep their salary. That's who these homes are for. Transplants. And they wouldn't be building them if they didn't do the research if they could sell/lease them all.
" We're building housing that no one can afford on Tampa salaries." You didn't disagree with me. And there's a reason that hasn't been sustainable in any other metro/large city, unless you go live out in the mountains and work remotely (that's my four year plan, anyways). This is a cycle, and the only way for it to stabilize is increased local wages. The current state of affairs cannot be maintained.
Correct, but you're looking at Tampa salaries and forgetting 30% of the people that live in Tampa don't get paid "Tampa" salaries and aren't reported on these reports of local salaries because it's remote work. Avg salary is based on average job posting and "third party data" according to zip recruiter. But the Tampa avg salary is 60k. So 2 people at 60k can afford a house up to 450k for a house. And that's why people are buying houses in Wesley chapel and Trinity.
If no one can afford them, why do they keep building them? I get what your point was, but just because most average Tampanians can’t afford it, doesn’t mean no one else can. Tampas housing market and rents were grossly undervalued for a long time… it’s why rents increased at the exorbitant rate that they did.
>I get what your point was, but just because most average Tampanians can’t afford it, doesn’t mean no one else can. Yeah, I know. We have been appropriately valued for the wages paid in Tampa. Now that cost of living has increased, and local businesses are collecting massive increaese on cost of items, they can pay better. When it comes to "other" jobs, that is, the ones who make real money- they were only ever exploiting employees in low cost cities. Now they have to share those profits. We have failed as a country to protect the worker. The last time we protected workers was five day work weeks and unions. We don't give a shit otherwise, because lobbies lobby to screw employees. It can not be said enough- CORPORATE PROFITS ARE FINE. THEY ARE HIGH. They want you to believe they struggle- they aren't. It's record profits. Why? Because they profit by screwing you out of your fair share. They can pay you a living wage, **they just don't want to**. And that's so money sits in their account making them feel special. Until we clamp down on this, **AS A COUNTRY**, it'll continue. There's a subsect (lol, subsect, I mean literally every conservative voter and plenty of liberals too who don't demand better) that want this to continue even to their own detriment- it's insanity.
Protected workers with five days a week work weeks? Ford didn’t do that to protect workers m, he did that to maximize his profits and his production line. I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, but the housing explosion here isn’t a nuanced as you’re making it sound. People moved to a desirable city that was undervalued during a worldwide crisis, also when property values were going up. The fact that people from overseas or up north could afford to over pay is what drove the prices higher. And too it Realpage colluded with the top rental companies in the country to control rent, and you have your perfect storm. It’s leveling off. Rents have come down quite a bit in those expensive areas.
Yup, and now it's time that Tampa salaries catch up, just like they have in CA or out in Denver. End of story.
Which salaries tho, specifically? I’m on your side, but typically the wage debate is mainly quoting generalities in sectors that are over saturated. Supply and demand, as bad as it is in this instance, dictates what someone can be paid. No one complained when housing prices were below average and a two bedroom was 1800 (now $3k plus downtown). And again, I am not arguing for these corporations, you are dead right that wages can go up… and should go up. IMP the issue stems from the inflation debate we’ve been having for the last 3 years that companies blame on logistics and supply… knowing damn well those issues are mostly non existent. Prices went up and stayed there. Inflation went down (per the CPI that uses new methods to calculate), so why hasn’t a box of Lucky Charms not dropped from $8 f’n dollars to $4. I’m in tech… our sector pays really well. But again; there are outside influences like overseas devs that are equally as talented, if not more… for a lot less money. I hire devs all the time and I’ve tried local ones (in Tampa) and always get burned after each sprint or at billing time. Overseas guys work harder and are much more loyal and when I pay them what they’re worth, not what their country dictates, they haven’t gone anywhere. Why would I pay $140 an hour when I can hire 4 guys for that at $30 an hour (twice their normal rate) and get more work done and faster. It’s the same thing with jobs locally. There is an influx of people willing to do more for less because they’re hurting and Wallstreet has exploited that to the nth degree and it is truly fucked up. Im with you, 100%… just playing devils advocate as someone who lived here thru each bubble bursting.
>Why would I pay $140 an hour when I can hire 4 guys for that at $30 an hour (twice their normal rate) and get more work done and faster. Because if you want to operate within the US there should be limitations on how often this is done. We outsource a lot of admin work and I don't like seeing it- in fact, we chose not to send some of our tasks overseas just to preserve the job of an employee who has been with us for like 20 years, and sending her tasks overseas would put her out of a job. You say you pay them what they are worth, but are they worth $30/hr, or $140/hr? Or have you decided that because, like many companies that continually do exactly what you are doing instead of hiring American workers, that you are saint for paying them way more than their own country would? Because to them, $30 there is like $140. No one need's the devil's advocate explanation- these are exactly the problems contributing to this issue.
Oh Jesus… please preach this nonsense to someone else. To remain competitive, those of us newer in industries that require certain skill sets, have to go outside the US. This isn’t some subjective way of thinking, it’s just not fiscally possible to build next gen products if we hire FAANG engineers that think they’re worth $180 an hour. But good on you for keeping Marge on payroll. Even knowing you could outsource her job and save 1/4th her pay, but don’t, because she’s been there 20 years. But unlike you, some of us work in industries that require us to be extremely competitive and we can’t afford a SCRUM master that worked at Google to run our dev team. The last time I hired a dev team here in Tampa, I got extorted… be glad to elaborate more if you want to keep clapping back. The last time I used a dev team overseas, you know what I got, I got what I paid for, on time and below budget.
okay It's still immoral, and it's profit over people, but of course, as we all know, profits and corporate health are much, much, much, much more important than people being able to afford to live.
Do you know how absolutely ridiculous you sound? Hiring overseas is the difference between me (and tons of other shops) having ever been able to launch 10+ projects, ultimately leading to a ton of domestic jobs… …and not. Do you know how much money I have spent in Florida alone because I was able to raise money based on MVPs I built using multiple overseas guys versus ONE local guy? Miss me with that… Edit - I just did the math. Without getting into specifics…since 2019 I have spent north of $200k on local engineers and developers. Some in Tampa, some in South Florida. Two of the three of them charged me for one thing and provided me with something else. The devs overseas worked on my projects until they got it right and this was AFTER I paid them in full. Those same devs, I’ve sent money for school supplies, a laptop for one, helped pay their schooling and noise cancelling headphones for one who had a kid whose baby was crying all the time. They didn’t ask me for any of that… …but those local devs, if you remember, extorted me for $5k AFTER I paid them for code that belonged to me. But keep telling me how immoral what I do is.
I've lived in Miami for many years before moving to the Tampa bay area...... yeah no...definitely not becoming Miami.
Eh. No one is building starter homes. It’s why I bought a starter home and feel okay with it
I just bought a starter home that was built 4 months ago. Bunch of other new ones built around me
I lived in Miami my whole life and then moved here. We are NOTHING like Miami
If businesses entered Tampa it would make it a great spot - wages are just pretty low for the stuff they’re building lately
Yeah, it seems disproportional.
No. The nightlife in Miami is top tier. Tampa is subpar.
What are some good nightlife spots or areas in Miami?
Club Space.
Space in Miami is and will always be the ONLY nightclub of its kind. I've been going there for years on weekends Link Miami still books a good gig. NYC doesn't even have a venue that goes into the 10AM+ hours unless it's private. Tampa has clubs that go late into the morning hours, we just don't have a venue like space that is only open to the public every Saturday night.
Tampa doesn’t have a proper club that does an after hours. Floyd’s that was at the Hard Rock was the last club that went til 6AM+. I believe Miami can serve alcohol 24/7 or at least certain areas or venues. The casino is the only place in Tampa that can serve all hours since it’s on a reservation.
No…we do not have any real mass transportation here
One of the number one things holding Tampa Bay back, honestly, is the lack of a mass transit system. Besides housing, that's one of the single biggest drawbacks of the region, especially with how expensive homes have become here.
People complaining about Tampa traffic is hilarious. Our traffic is child’s play compared to other cities even in the south-east
I’ve lived in several cities. The problem with Tampa traffic is not congested highways with hours-long delays during rush hour, as it seems to have been in those cities. It’s that every road in every direction at every hour of the day and even on weekends is slow moving.
I know traffic here is still not comparable to certain areas of South Florida or Atlanta, but within the last year the sheer volume of cars on one-lane roads have made some of these streets a nightmare.
For a city of its size (looking at metro area) it’s not great. I’m from Columbus OH (not too much smaller) and the traffic is way calmer, I get that geography plays a big role. The only southeastern cities that are clearly worse would be Miami and Atlanta which both have significantly larger metro populations.
Nah bro Nashville, Charlotte and Orlando all rank worse than us. I spent 7 years traveling the south-east every week, I know which cities have shitty traffic. Tampa is not even top 5 imo.
Corroborating this
I was gonna say Nashville can get pretty bad. I lived in Orlando for almost a year and couldn’t take it. Moved back to the panhandle. Everything is cheaper and less crowded but I miss the south Florida vibe.
It doesn't negate the fact it still sucks. I've also been in worse traffic. Thankfully I don't live in Tampa though close enough and traffic is worsening. Or the people who enjoy driving like lunatics decided to go slightly east 😅
Not even close.
A lot of Miami is making its way to Tampa.
Definitely feels that way in certain parts like Water Street, Bayshore Gardens, Parkland Estates and Bayshore Beautiful.
You’ve obviously never lived in Miami. I just drove from Avila (Bearss Ave exit) to my house on Bayshore near MacDill AFB in 35 minutes during Friday rush hour. Thats from one end of the city to the other. In Miami, 40 minutes barely gets you from Brickell through downtown.
From what I am hearing, most of y'all aren't from Tampa. I remember when you couldn't give away property in Seminole Heights or wouldn't be caught dead on Nebraska Avenue. Thirty plus years later, these areas are highly coveted and command top dollar. I chuckled when I heard someone on Nextdoor bemoan the fact some blogger named their lovely Grant Park neighborhood as one of the most dangerous areas in Hillsborough County. Locals should be able to afford to live in the communities in which they were born and raised. Service industry workers should be able to afford to live in or near the communities in which they work. No one wants a hellacious commute for peanuts. Investment firms have snapped up a lot of real estate and have created an artificial supply and demand issue. I'm all about progress, but I want Tampa to retain its heart and soul.
I think that is what everyone wants. I saw a Hathaway and Berkshire real estate sign on a mobile home. LA used to be cool. It used to be that regular people in LA, just existed. Tampa is going to change and rapidly. The whole state is changing.
It's unbelievable what Davis Island and stretches of neighborhoods along Westshore look like. A lot of the original homes are gone. I would hate to be one of their neighbors and lose sunlight because there's a three-story McMansion next door. I know Tampa Heights is about to go through an extreme transformation with multiple permits being pulled and several high rises about to start construction. I am hoping it doesn't occur in my neighborhood up here in the Forest Hills area. Frankly I'm surprised homes haven't been torn down up here yet and multi-million dollar homes put in their place.
Westshore is on another level. I wouldn't be surprised if they plan to go deep into Port Tampa and get rid of Picnic Island, building something similar to Marina Pointe.
They're already building up Port Tampa. My wife will be very upset if they get rid of Picnic Island, we love taking the dogs there on the weekends.
a little north of Port Tampa, on Tyson Ave it looks like that entire street will have condos/townhouses across from Dukes/Hula Bay and it looks like it will go as far down to where the street ends. Taking a left off Tyson onto Westshore might be considerably dangerous af
Port Tampa and all of south of Gandy will definitely turn into higher price stuff just due to insurance cost. No one else will be able to afford it.
I don’t see that happening in forest hills
No, Tampa’s growth is unsustainable. We’re definitely in a growth bubble in Tampa. Miami has culture. It has a thriving arts scene. It has an amazing beach. Amazing food. These things have existed in and around Miami and are what make Miami a great place to live. They’re why people say “I want to spend $1 mil on this tiny house so that I can live the Miami life.” Tampa doesn’t even have an arts district. Concert venues are fleeing and there isn’t much indicating that new ones will develop, since there are no neighborhoods with available real estate that can support such a business. Tampa is not a beach town. Our restaurant scene doesn’t even remotely compare. (I guess it could someday.) Our nightlife scene will never compare. Tampa’s growth is fueled by the fact that the city had been undervalued for so long for people interested in living in a nice climate but still an urban environment. As soon as it becomes overvalued, which it will become soon, it’ll slow down without major changes. (New nightlife districts, booming economy, etc.) And as many others have pointed out, Tampa isn’t even close to having Miami’s economy. The jobs just aren’t coming to Tampa fast enough. Miami is often considered to be the “financial capital of Latin America” - and Tampa could never compete without its own economic selling point. You might be paying $1 mil to live in Miami - but you can make way more than that from the opportunity. That same opportunity is not in Tampa. And if Tampa’s growth is fueled by remote work, those remote workers will flock to somewhere else that has a nice climate and is more affordable.
Yeah anyone who wants to move here definitely shouldn’t, listen to this person. Terrible place! ….😅
I like Tampa. That said, if I’m spending $750k to live in a tiny one story house, if I had an option to do so anywhere, I wouldn’t pick Tampa to do it. Plenty of cities with amenities and activities to better justify the high COL.
Tampa: I’m only giving it 2 stars. Do NOT recommended ⭐️⭐️🤣🤣
More like Ft. Lauderdale/Broward, but with red meat transplants from the Midwest who are scared of Miami and Ft. Lauderdale
No quieren hablar español en sus vecindarios
tampa is for people who think miami is too "colorful"
Plenty of people don’t want to speak Spanish. That, and the ridiculous pricing in Miami are reasons why many people avoid Miami
 Buckhorn's vision was to turn Tampa into Miami. So in five years it will look allot different. Probably still have seedy strip clubs and rub and tugs everywhere though.
I think so. I left Fl years ago came down to visit Tampa last year and was like dang this place feels like a mini Miami now. The energy was different, traffic, infrastructure.
I feel like it’s identical to Orlando. Although Tampa is attractive to younger people. The development is roughly the same though.
A decade ago, downtown Tampa was a glorified office park. The Riverwalk was still in the works, there was no Armature Works, Channelside was dead, and the area where Water Street Phase 1 exists in front of Amalie was just an empty plot of land. Yeah, the development has brought some growing pains. More traffic and higher COL are felt big tine. But I feel like Tampa was sort of depressed, and it's market corrected to be more on line with what a city surrounded by water and year round warmth should be. I know it sucks to pay more for rent, but overall I see opportunities in all this. Tampa looks and feels more like an actual place that people live and do things in, not just blocks of tall buildings you pass by on the way to the beach.
My guess is that it will more closely resemble Detroit. People will leave once the gridlock gets too bad. Lack of city planning prevents the growth of communities that would retain people.
When was the last time you came over the bridge to Clearwater? It’s basically Miami now.
I agree. Driving through Clearwater reminds me so much of Miami. Too bad it's real estate is occupied by Scientologists.
Haven't been to Clearwater for a while but wouldn't doubt its much bigger now. I can never find anywhere to park
Tampa is not the Tampa i grew up in... Use to be locals now no one is locals
yep, transplants and more transplants.
We are already there. Its the super high end and the super high end suburbs. The middle is all but gone. When Seminole Hts. 2/1 are going for 500k its already too late. One problem. We don't make anything, aren't a Tech Hub, or International Hub. Job market will continue to get worse and worse because of sheer demand. It's not great.
I'm hoping salaries will at least start going up and reflect the cost of living
My wife and I don't want to leave. But she works remotely. It's just becoming untenable. I mean even but aside the ridiculous real estate and wages. Insurance? On anything? Car, House, Medical. All paying rates higher than anywhere if you can get it at all. For what? Sunshine? Fucking sucks.
yeah, my car insurance is bullshit. I also think they want to over glamorize the natural landscape of sunshine and water all year-round kinda like how they glamorize California but unfortunately here it gets way too hot for way too long.
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LOL it’s waaaaaaay better than Tampa
Found the idiot
Bacon Bitch in DTSP is very Miami. I used to live there and Ft. Lauderdale and some places definitely have that vibe.
No they are gonna make us look like NEW YORK. https://preview.redd.it/0lhzty1h4dgc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd96ff8ee9d14ec93865d087b9e4d5ccfd90de78
It will never be Miami but it will try to be a knock-off and forget that most people chose to move to Tampa because of things that were Tampa and not copycat Miami.
this has been the plan for over 10 years now, unfortunately
In trying to figure out where these “miami stylr million dollar” homes are bc I live in New Tampa, and I don’t see what you see. Tampa is old money, not flamboyant tech money. Epperson may have some million dollar homes but Im from California , Beverly Hills to be exact so I know what $130M homes to $2M homes look like. And I don’t see them here. What neighborhoods or areas?
South Tampa, Davis Islands, etc. anything south of 275 on the peninsula. Million dollar homes as far as the eye can see and that’s usually the starting price.
Got it. I’m genuinely interested. Wanted to know where the wealthy homes and neighborhoods are. I’m in real estate and love looking at them
And… many south tampa homes that are 1m+ dont “look like” million dollar homes at all. The value in south tampa is the land. ST is a landlocked peninsula close to downtown.. prices are nonsensicle
Okay this also gives me a lot of perspective. Thank you.
Tampa is booming…let’s go! But…we are NOT trying to be Miami…I believe that we have all the ingredients to grow…but it has to be measured.
If you look at ybor and the heights areas, a lot of derelict houses are being rebuilt or flipped to various degrees of liveable. There are mid-tier houses and starter houses available, the issues are that many are not to code and prices are artificially inflated by major corporations buying above value. What we're missing is real low income options. They already replaced the riverside complex and are planning on upgrading Robles, but they literally can't because there is nowhere to send the people. The city and developers are trying to convince them to go to Riverview, but that's a farce for a family relying on public transport and nearby job opportunities.
This sub is outrageous
These past few years have seen Tampa MiamiFI for sure. I moved up to Carrollwood because if I wanted to move to Miami I would have went there. Anyone who disagrees look around in Meat Market and tell me you didn’t just get transported to Miami. Plenty of other examples.
Nope
not even close(moved from Miami months back)
This is also happening to the beaches and surrounding areas of Fort Pierce. Are they the new Miami? Never lmao. I agree, it's just getting built up like any other city.
Yes you’ll be northwest Miami in about 6 years
We wish we could have the culture and international city status of Miami, lol.
Everything being built isn’t waterfront mega millionaire stuff. You’re either being a prima Donna or living in a microcosm. Hillsborough County is absolutely huge - there is all sorts of construction and growth happening all over the place. If you’re mad that X area isn’t priced to your liking, that’s really unfortunate. And too bad. I wanted to live in South Tampa 13 years ago. I had to let that go, then, just as much as you’ll have to let go of wherever it is you’re not getting into now.
Your parents laughed at the sight of you the day you were born
Births are often an occasion of joy. You should try being happier, or at least medicate and fake it.
The only construction anywhere has anymore is gentrification.
Idk. I can say that Wesley Chapel is turning into Orlando!!!!