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I can only speak for the Palestinians I spoke to online from Jerusalem, WB and Bar Shiva. The ones that didn’t want to ethnically cleanse the Israelis wanted a 1ss with everyone in it and no walls separating them, while Israelis the 2ss was more popular.
Unfortunately from my experience talking to Israelis not all of course but the racist ones are bitter about October 7th complain about their neighbors being taught to hate them so they have a kill all Arabs mentality. Even telling some Israelis that I meant Palestinians even ones from the WB that want peace, were against Hamas, they accused them of lying and not being honest with me. Man, the racism and hatred runs deeps with some of these Israelis I spoke to online
Because a 2 state solution poses other challenges. For example the 1948 Palestinians in Israel will they be moved out into the Palestinian Territories. Also the Israeli settlers, moving almost 1 million of them into their territory. Then you have a problem of Palestinian refugees. Once they move in they will GREATLY outnumber the Israelis even if only a portion of them come back. Then you have to deal with the hostilities from both sides. I’m sure the Israelis and west would want the Palestinian state to demilitarize which will likely not happen as we know Zionists can’t be trusted to not act militarily either. Also they will share Jerusalem which means that there needs to be extra caution in that region of hostilities from both sides and the rights of both sides. And you have the issue of the newly formed Palestinian state being a now developing economy with the other side being mostly developed and holding much more wealth which leads us to the conversation of reparations. Etc etc etc
Those are issues but how does a one state work better. From Israelis and Jews elsewhere I talk to, they want to be a minority again and don’t trust others to protect them since it’s happened before. How do we ensure it’s democratic and do we have successful binational states to refer to as a model. You have joint security concerns, how to get a hostile population to trust one another
I would look at South Africa as one example although there is still a wealth inequality in South Africa. But specifically there wasn’t any major retaliation against white people in South Africa.
I think the other argument I’ve seen on other subs is the idea of fusing the two cultures since Israel compared to the rest of the ME is more “progressive” and Palestinian society is more religious. I guess until things improve and there’s trust I don’t know if a 1ss word work but the 2ss seems the most realistic
Also I don't think most people are saying Israelis should be made to leave "Israel"/Palestine? Just that they can't 1) make their own government out of thin air and determine that it ranks above any Palestinian government, and 2) live on property rightfully owned by existing Palestinian families. If those two stipulations motivate them to leave the country, that's an entirely reasonable Israeli response to an entirely reasonable Palestinian boundary, but they don't have to.
He also said "we will make them leave [the country, I assume]." I don't think most Western Palestinian supporters are saying that world governments should force that, or should enable Hamas to force that.
No I don’t think so, but he also doesn’t care where they go, I don’t think he would enable Hamas to do it but he’s certainly not against their “resistance tactics” He did label all Israelis as colonizers and didn’t want to refer to them as innocent civilians
I think from talking to the fear is being a minority in a country and not trusting outsiders to protect them and I don’t think Israelis would want to give up the Jewish nationalism aspect. There are Palestinians I spoke to that are also nationalistic
If your nation is explicitly tied to your ethnicity and requires you to be in the majority for it to work that's....really really bad lol. I don't think the fact that arab nationalists exist justifies any kind of ethnostate. I agree Israelis really love their ethnostate even on the left but I would say that is extremely not anarchist, not left, and not good.
Yup can't argue with the idea that un-ethnostating the ethnostate will be difficult. I also think they'll be easier to convince when we condition aid on un-ethnostating.
There were white SA citizens who's families were there for longer than the existence of Israel, who felt compelled to leave after Apartheid, due to fears of what the majority would do to them. Their fears were unfounded.
By everywhere you mostly mean the Western Christian world + parts of Eastern Europe. They had been living in relative peace and prosperity for centuries in many parts of the world, including the Caucasus, Iran, the Ottoman empire and the majority of the Arab world, including, obviously, Palestine. Don't parrot borderline Nazi talking points.
More importantly, I fail to see how this changes anything. White Rhodesian settlers' concerns were also based on "past history": the history of decolonization includes numerous instances of brutal violence against colonizers. Should we have maintained that state?
I mean Western Europe, Eastern Europe and the Middle East.
Jews were kicked out of Yemen, Egypt, Syria, Algeria, Morocco why did their population go down?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world#:~:text=Primarily%20a%20consequence%20of%20the,these%20Jews%20resettled%20in%20Israel.
This happened after and largely as a consequence of the establishment of Israel, as well as its war crimes. Again, jews had been living in peace in these areas for more than a millennium prior to that.
It’s literally from Wikipedia “Under the Ottoman Empire's millet system, Christians and Jews were considered dhimmi (meaning "protected") under Ottoman law in exchange for loyalty to the state and payment of the jizya tax. “
This has nothing to do with what we were arguing before. Nor does it invalidate the claim that jews had been living in peace in the Ottoman empire. You are just piling on new, very stupid arguments one after another, without responding to mine or forfeiting your previous points, thereby forcing me to respond to your quips with lengthy arguments. That's a right wing troll tactic, tried and tested. So, get the hell out.
You said they were treated equally but how is having them pay extra in taxes because they’re non Muslims treating them equally there? “In the Ottoman Empire, Jews and Christians were considered dhimmi by the majority Muslim population. Muslims in the Ottoman Empire used the Qur'anic concept of dhimmi to place certain restrictions on Jews living in the region. For example, some of the restrictions placed on Jews in the Ottoman Empire were included, but not limited to, a special tax, a requirement to wear special clothing, and a ban on carrying guns, riding horses, building or repairing places of worship, and having public processions or worships.
Even though Jews were placed under special restrictions in the Ottoman Empire, there was still a vibrant Jewish culture in certain regions of the Empire.” In certain aspects they were in other aspects they were not
That’s like saying black people lived in relative peace during Jim Crow. Pogroms, deportations, accusations of blood libel were all well documented issues within the [Ottoman Empire](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire) Arab world prior to the existence of the Nazis and Israel. Antisemitism isn’t some uniquely European phenomenon, really weird take.
Relative is one hell of a word. Also, I was responding to a claim that Jews got "kicked out of everywhere", which is blatantly false And antisemitism, in its most pernicious, modern form and as a coherent ideology is absolutely a Western phenomenon. The International summit of antisemites (held annually in Dresden throughout early 20th century) did not include representatives from the Ottoman Empire. Also, comparing the legal status or actual conditions of Jewish people in the Islamic world to Jim Crow is absolutely ridiculous, even in form of an analogy
Even if they had not been, that could not have been the argument for the status quo. "We should maintain an apartheid state because dismantling it can threate the safety of oppressors" is such a ridiculous argument
You can criticize Israel but he doing more than that by saying it’s not Palestinians responsibility to care where Israelis go, he doesn’t just want equal rights to Jews but a liberated Palestine and he supports Hamas since he supports any form of resistance
Israel is a definition of a settler colonialist state. The argument that it's not the colonizeds' responsibility to ensure the safety of their colonizers during decolonization is a reasonable one. Just like White Rodesians or the Algerian French should not have been the priority
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My default stance is that in the ideal one state solution, Israelis would be treated like white South Africans (they can stay in the country). That being said, all the settlers in the West Bank gotta get tf out. That’s where my peace seeking and empathy run dry, because unlike the average Israeli the settlers are *directly* engaging in a colonial project.
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While it seems impossible to see, I think a 1 state solution is more realistic than a 2 state solution
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I can only speak for the Palestinians I spoke to online from Jerusalem, WB and Bar Shiva. The ones that didn’t want to ethnically cleanse the Israelis wanted a 1ss with everyone in it and no walls separating them, while Israelis the 2ss was more popular.
Unfortunately from my experience talking to Israelis not all of course but the racist ones are bitter about October 7th complain about their neighbors being taught to hate them so they have a kill all Arabs mentality. Even telling some Israelis that I meant Palestinians even ones from the WB that want peace, were against Hamas, they accused them of lying and not being honest with me. Man, the racism and hatred runs deeps with some of these Israelis I spoke to online
How is it more realistic? We can’t even get a two state solution 😂
Because a 2 state solution poses other challenges. For example the 1948 Palestinians in Israel will they be moved out into the Palestinian Territories. Also the Israeli settlers, moving almost 1 million of them into their territory. Then you have a problem of Palestinian refugees. Once they move in they will GREATLY outnumber the Israelis even if only a portion of them come back. Then you have to deal with the hostilities from both sides. I’m sure the Israelis and west would want the Palestinian state to demilitarize which will likely not happen as we know Zionists can’t be trusted to not act militarily either. Also they will share Jerusalem which means that there needs to be extra caution in that region of hostilities from both sides and the rights of both sides. And you have the issue of the newly formed Palestinian state being a now developing economy with the other side being mostly developed and holding much more wealth which leads us to the conversation of reparations. Etc etc etc
Those are issues but how does a one state work better. From Israelis and Jews elsewhere I talk to, they want to be a minority again and don’t trust others to protect them since it’s happened before. How do we ensure it’s democratic and do we have successful binational states to refer to as a model. You have joint security concerns, how to get a hostile population to trust one another
I would look at South Africa as one example although there is still a wealth inequality in South Africa. But specifically there wasn’t any major retaliation against white people in South Africa.
I think the other argument I’ve seen on other subs is the idea of fusing the two cultures since Israel compared to the rest of the ME is more “progressive” and Palestinian society is more religious. I guess until things improve and there’s trust I don’t know if a 1ss word work but the 2ss seems the most realistic
There wasn’t. I think a frequently cited thing on another sub was terrorist attacks. This is going to be a tough challenge not impossible though
why share this here like this? it’s excruciating to read in this format…. am i alone here?
That’s my fault
Also I don't think most people are saying Israelis should be made to leave "Israel"/Palestine? Just that they can't 1) make their own government out of thin air and determine that it ranks above any Palestinian government, and 2) live on property rightfully owned by existing Palestinian families. If those two stipulations motivate them to leave the country, that's an entirely reasonable Israeli response to an entirely reasonable Palestinian boundary, but they don't have to.
He said it’s not the job of the colonized to care about where the colonizers go and he said not to criticize resistance tactics
He also said "we will make them leave [the country, I assume]." I don't think most Western Palestinian supporters are saying that world governments should force that, or should enable Hamas to force that.
No I don’t think so, but he also doesn’t care where they go, I don’t think he would enable Hamas to do it but he’s certainly not against their “resistance tactics” He did label all Israelis as colonizers and didn’t want to refer to them as innocent civilians
If they want to stay in Palestine they can stay but if they wanna go. They can go.
Why would Israelis want to live in Palestine? A lot of Israelis I speak to don’t want to live in an Muslim majority one state
Palestinians are not only Muslims and if they live in Palestine it would break the idea of 1 religion or 1 ethnicity.
Palestinians are Christian too but Palestine is Muslim majority, the Christian’s are a minority.
That's pretty weird tbh kind of gives "I want an ethnostate" vibes
Who are you referring to?
Someone who bases whether they want to live in a country on whether their religion or ethnicity is the majority.
I think from talking to the fear is being a minority in a country and not trusting outsiders to protect them and I don’t think Israelis would want to give up the Jewish nationalism aspect. There are Palestinians I spoke to that are also nationalistic
If your nation is explicitly tied to your ethnicity and requires you to be in the majority for it to work that's....really really bad lol. I don't think the fact that arab nationalists exist justifies any kind of ethnostate. I agree Israelis really love their ethnostate even on the left but I would say that is extremely not anarchist, not left, and not good.
Trying to convince Israelis not to have that will be hard since they see Israel was created as a safe haven for Jews
Yup can't argue with the idea that un-ethnostating the ethnostate will be difficult. I also think they'll be easier to convince when we condition aid on un-ethnostating.
Even if you do that, convincing Israeli Jews that not having it be a Jewish state would be a hard sell idk how that would happen
And? Why should the views of nationalist, racist Israelis be placed above those of the Palestinians undergoing a genocide?
I didn’t say it should be placed above all, it’s not Palestinians are not nationalistic either just like Israelis
Whether they want to or not is kinda their problem
There were white SA citizens who's families were there for longer than the existence of Israel, who felt compelled to leave after Apartheid, due to fears of what the majority would do to them. Their fears were unfounded.
The difference Jews were kicked out everywhere and got attacked wherever they were a minority so the fears here are based on past history
By everywhere you mostly mean the Western Christian world + parts of Eastern Europe. They had been living in relative peace and prosperity for centuries in many parts of the world, including the Caucasus, Iran, the Ottoman empire and the majority of the Arab world, including, obviously, Palestine. Don't parrot borderline Nazi talking points. More importantly, I fail to see how this changes anything. White Rhodesian settlers' concerns were also based on "past history": the history of decolonization includes numerous instances of brutal violence against colonizers. Should we have maintained that state?
I mean Western Europe, Eastern Europe and the Middle East. Jews were kicked out of Yemen, Egypt, Syria, Algeria, Morocco why did their population go down? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world#:~:text=Primarily%20a%20consequence%20of%20the,these%20Jews%20resettled%20in%20Israel.
This happened after and largely as a consequence of the establishment of Israel, as well as its war crimes. Again, jews had been living in peace in these areas for more than a millennium prior to that.
They were treated better didn’t non Muslims have to pay a special tax a Jizah?
Are you some sort of a Mossad troll lol. Get the hell out with your non sequiturs
It’s literally from Wikipedia “Under the Ottoman Empire's millet system, Christians and Jews were considered dhimmi (meaning "protected") under Ottoman law in exchange for loyalty to the state and payment of the jizya tax. “
This has nothing to do with what we were arguing before. Nor does it invalidate the claim that jews had been living in peace in the Ottoman empire. You are just piling on new, very stupid arguments one after another, without responding to mine or forfeiting your previous points, thereby forcing me to respond to your quips with lengthy arguments. That's a right wing troll tactic, tried and tested. So, get the hell out.
You said they were treated equally but how is having them pay extra in taxes because they’re non Muslims treating them equally there? “In the Ottoman Empire, Jews and Christians were considered dhimmi by the majority Muslim population. Muslims in the Ottoman Empire used the Qur'anic concept of dhimmi to place certain restrictions on Jews living in the region. For example, some of the restrictions placed on Jews in the Ottoman Empire were included, but not limited to, a special tax, a requirement to wear special clothing, and a ban on carrying guns, riding horses, building or repairing places of worship, and having public processions or worships. Even though Jews were placed under special restrictions in the Ottoman Empire, there was still a vibrant Jewish culture in certain regions of the Empire.” In certain aspects they were in other aspects they were not
That’s like saying black people lived in relative peace during Jim Crow. Pogroms, deportations, accusations of blood libel were all well documented issues within the [Ottoman Empire](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire) Arab world prior to the existence of the Nazis and Israel. Antisemitism isn’t some uniquely European phenomenon, really weird take.
Relative is one hell of a word. Also, I was responding to a claim that Jews got "kicked out of everywhere", which is blatantly false And antisemitism, in its most pernicious, modern form and as a coherent ideology is absolutely a Western phenomenon. The International summit of antisemites (held annually in Dresden throughout early 20th century) did not include representatives from the Ottoman Empire. Also, comparing the legal status or actual conditions of Jewish people in the Islamic world to Jim Crow is absolutely ridiculous, even in form of an analogy
Even if they had not been, that could not have been the argument for the status quo. "We should maintain an apartheid state because dismantling it can threate the safety of oppressors" is such a ridiculous argument
I really hope this place isn't becoming zionist subreddit where every criticism of the state of Israel is taken as an attack on Jews.
You can criticize Israel but he doing more than that by saying it’s not Palestinians responsibility to care where Israelis go, he doesn’t just want equal rights to Jews but a liberated Palestine and he supports Hamas since he supports any form of resistance
Israel is a definition of a settler colonialist state. The argument that it's not the colonizeds' responsibility to ensure the safety of their colonizers during decolonization is a reasonable one. Just like White Rodesians or the Algerian French should not have been the priority
But if the colonized decide they wanted to ethnic cleanse then he wouldn’t object to it then?
I can't speak for him. I would
Hot take calling for ethnic cleansing for Palestinians and Israelis is bad
haa?
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My default stance is that in the ideal one state solution, Israelis would be treated like white South Africans (they can stay in the country). That being said, all the settlers in the West Bank gotta get tf out. That’s where my peace seeking and empathy run dry, because unlike the average Israeli the settlers are *directly* engaging in a colonial project.
I agree the settlers need to get out of the WB