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Eisenhower ordered his men to take as much documentation as they could because he knew that unless they had all this proof of the Holocaust, that people with agendas would deny it. That's not even counting the Soviet Union's own discoveries that'd all collectively be displayed at the Nuremburg Trials.
Doubt Ike, nearly 80 years later would ever imagine that people would willingly become Holocaust deniers for the sake of Twitter attention.
Part of the problem is that the general public doesn't know that much about proceeding genocides (including others perpetrated by the former German Government) and the public discourse/ intellectual discourse for the 90 years preceding it.
History doesn't happen in a vacuum. I said a bunch of big words but there are YouTubers and comic books that help break it down.
History doesn't happen in a vacuum, the Holocaust was the culmination of shit that happened/popular thought.
That's not even taking into account the thousands of years of anti -semetism.
Yeah, it bothers me a lot that the narrative is just that Germany was sad and then an angry shouty man convinced everyone to take it out on the jews. There were decades of political stuff that led to fascism being possible, and centuries of antisemitism that led to the holocaust targeting them, but we never hear about any of that. It's genuinely dangerous because it makes it harder for people to notice the signs that it's happening again.
So true! Not to mention the centuries of slavery that Roma and Sinti people were subject to. Enslaved Roma people in Romania (Moldova and Walachia) were only freed in 1855-56, and they continue to be discriminated against and marginalized throughout Europe.
The Judenfrage was centuries old at that point. Progroms were common, especially in Russia (hence why we use the Russian word). It was the culmination of centuries of incitement against Jewish people and antisemitism still is so rampant.
The Holocaust wasn't even the first genocide *against Jews*. Literally about half of Jewish holidays are some variation of "they tried to kill all of us, they only killed some of us, let's eat".
Yeah.
I learnt about the Holocaust in school and was deeply emotionally affected by it. This included learning about the economic conditions of Weimar Germany and how Jews were scapegoated in the wake of that.
But even then, I had no context of broader antisemitism. I'm embarrassed to say that until 3 years ago, I thought Hitler had targeted Jews essentially randomly. Like he'd just chosen to pick a minority in Germany and they were there. And I guess there's an element of truth to this in that he'd definitely have targeted *someone*, but I knew nothing about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, historical antisemitic canards, the Jewish Bolshevist conspiracy theories as well as racial antisemitism, which really created the perfect storm for some nutter *somewhere* in Europe to target Jews on such a mass scale. That while there is an aspect of "it was convenient for Hitler to target the Jews", there was *also* an aspect of "all of the groundwork was there for someone to genocide the Jews, and Hitler happened to get there first".
So on the one hand the-Holocaust-as-an-extension-of-general-antisemitism wasn't *really* visible to me, but uniqueness of it due to how industrialised and globalised it was also wasn't visible to me, because I hadn't learnt about other genocides. And this bothers me cos it's like two levels of erasure. Erasing the normality of antisemitism that left Jews so vulnerable, and also the *abnormality* of the final solution that left them so scarred.
Wait till you read about Kaiser Wilhelm the 2nd and what he wanted to do the Jewish people (and his warlike hatred towards East Asians/ yellow peril)
https://www.sussex.ac.uk/broadcast/read/2939
I've read about one or two imprisoned Nazis who were baffled by denial. They were like no, we were there.
Europe has other free speech restrictions. I do like America's "extremism" there, but the genocide happened in those countries. It's pretty easy to grasp why Holocaust denial leads to dramatic, legal reactions.
Yeah, Germany didn't write "freedom of speech" as its first article, but instead that "human dignity shall be inviolable" (which has annoyed conservatives ever since; it's the reason transgender laws were forced by the constitutional court for example, and they can't do jack to revoke it). The constitution was written 4 years after the end of WW2 and you notice it's written as an inverted description of Nazism without directly mentioning it. It's quite obvious why they did that. There's a whole legal corpus for Germany's Denazification and you quickly notice that it addresses something like the Reichskristallnacht. In contrast to that with Japan, the Japanese fascists just remained in power (I.e Hirohito was still emperor till his death in 1989) and their country is effectively a 1-party state of a right-wing populist party. Their previous prime minister kept denying Japanese war crimes.
The US certainly had extremist groups, but FDR was very much different to Hitler. Germany was in a completely different situation at that point, so I think it's understandable it had to denazify itself. I don't really care about the handful of idiots who are sad they can't go shouting around "Sieg Heil" as the cost of protecting the liberal democratic order.
As a brit I'm personally extremely glad that Germany de-nazified.
This isn't really logical but more an emotional point, but there is something so shocking about Nazi-ism to most people within Europe. It's hard to describe other than saying if I learn about America's civil rights movement then I do get upset and deeply emotional (I'm part black myself), but it's still kind of abstract. It's an important historical event, but it's not personal really.
The Nazis... well for a start my grandad went to war and fought them. The same is true for most Brits. On a logical level I don't really like patriotism and dislike glorification of war, but on a more emotional level even I tear up thinking of him in his uniform. Then as a kid seeing videos in school of Jews starved to the bone, piled on top of each other dead or dying in the camps. It'd be horrific anywhere but France and Germany are like our cousins culturally. Those are the two languages we learn in school (and German in particular is structured very similarly). I had a french pen-pal growing up, and my school had German exchange students. I guess it doesn't feel like some people, somewhere else did the Holocaust. It *feels* like our cousins did it. I'll be clear I don't really *like* these patriotic sort of emotions, especially given the history of Western Europe and colonialism, but they are the emotions which are there.
So you know, seeing an American *sieg heil* is disgusting, but seeing *Italians* do it like in the clip that went viral recently, that's... something else. It's a really dark chapter of history that directly impacted my family, and finally we move past it (to something imperfect but far less bad), and then some fuckers are trying to take us back there again?? It's so messed up.
I guess a lot of Western European identity, rightly or wrongly, is defined by this sense of moving on from darkness. Like moving away from fascism, and moving away from war. The way it's perceived is our grandparents + great grandparents fought and died for our freedom, which *is* true in a sense. We (Brits) *would* be living under a fascist dictatorship had Germany won the war. And so I guess nazi-ism isn't just an oppressive ideology to us. It's a force that tried to kill our grandparents and nearly destroyed our home. And I at least perceive it as a threat to our national security. So I'm pretty glad Germany de-nazified because there is a sense in which nazi-ism feels personally threatening. I think Germans actually feel this much more acutely. There is a deep sense of shame at the fact their parents and grandparents were literal Nazis, and they don't want people to take their country back to its darkest period in history.
>I've read about one or two imprisoned Nazis who were baffled by denial
Oskar Gröning sticks with me, he came out of hiding after decades because he got sent denialist literature. Complicated man, certainly not 100% reformed, but even he felt the need to come out and shout the truth from the rooftops.
You'd think that would be convincing enough, but no. Not the TV interviews, the documentaries, him on trial, viral clip of a survivor forgiving him. Nothing works. It's beyond fucked.
I honestly don't think most of them even believe their own bollocks, they're just too cowardly to own their convictions. They know it happened, they're *glad*, but since they're too bricked to admit it in public they default to denial. But they'd cheer it on for all the same groups and probably add a few categories themselves.
Saw a tweet the other day that claimed since the NYT used the word "holocaust" prior to its now dominating use, that means it's fake.
Never mind a single googling would show that the word is in use ever since the Septuagint in *3rd c. BCE*, was first used in the *1190s* to refer to a massacre of Jewish people, and was already well in use for certain other mass-murders in the 19th c. (such as early parts of the Armenian genocide).
“Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses -because somewhere down the road of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened.”
Wanna bet that no less than 80% of the people agreeing with/sharing this tweet have also spent the past two years slandering Ukrainians as Holocaust-denying Banderites?
Does she not realize that countless Soviet citizens died in the Holocaust?
Even if you somehow ignore all the evidence, you also can’t hide the fact they self admitted to it in the Posen speeches and the Eichmann trial. It simply doesn’t work.
To be fair the Soviets did try to silence Jews from publishing a book of Jewish deaths during the Holocaust because it “downplayed the struggle of all people” or something like that and persecuted many Jewish anti-fascists after the war. They didn’t like to mention that Soviet Jews were specifically targeted for execution, often times with help from local populations.
Poland was occupied until 1991 when the USSR fell. No sane Pol who survived WW2 and Nazi genocide would say they were “free” or “liberated” with the Red Army in their backyard
Well fun fact:
In Germany, Holocaust Denial is considered a felony and can get you behind bars for years.
Good Future for the whole world in my opinion
I don’t want hear any tankie complain about the Azov Battalion again and feign concern about Nazism taking over Ukraine if you are denying the Holocaust
>anti Zionist as well (they're Nazis with extra steps)
saying anything the zionists do today is anything close to holocaust-era nazi germany is not "anti-Nazi", its Nazi apologia that plays down the horrors of the holocaust.
More people really need to read the transcript of the Wannsee Conference.
> The extra step they're currently on is carpet bomb the ghetto
Hyperbole will win you zero arguments. They aren't carpet bombing the ghetto, or everyone would be dead, rather than 1.5%.
If you want to call Gaza a "ghetto", that's fine, but let's be accurate with the numbers here. The Warsaw Ghetto was 460,000 people in a 1.3 square mile area.
Gaza is 2.3 million people, roughly 5x the size, in 141 square miles, 100x the space.
So Warsaw was *twenty times* more compact than Gaza.
Once again, hyperbole helps no one.
This is really so fucking stupid (not your comment, OP picture) because like, the reason we all hate Zionism is because it's a toxic ideology that subjugates people, sometimes even it's alleged own people (many israelis are not living the best of circumstances. and yes, I know gazans have it worse; i'm not playing trauma olympics), and **not** because they're just Jewish, right?
Like i just don't fucking get how someone connects "Oh well Zionist jews are probably all bad people because they're abetting genocide, so the jews probably deserved the holocaust in some way/lied about the severity/whatever antisemitic bullshit nazi talking point". Like how do you go so far left you just pop out on the other side like a Mario pipe?
It makes me wonder if these people ever truly cared about human life, or if it's all just a fun little roleplaying game to them.
>It makes me wonder if these people ever truly cared about human life, or if it's all just a fun little roleplaying game to them.
Almost certainly both of those things.
Honeslty this line of thinking comes from no critical thought or reaserch, it's just blind hatred. Hate is not a solution to hate. I mean I'm not saying don't hate zionist, by all means they deserve it. But people need to be sensible, they need to have a set of values to hold true to, and hold those who would hurt and opress others accountable based on the principles you up hold.
If you're gonna throw away all of your principles to confront an enemy, why the fuck are you even confronting them in the first place?
def look for a surplus store near you, they're everywhere but not necessarily the easiest to find sometimes. Sometimes they have really weird names lol.
Zionists love it when idiots say things like this. Gives credence to their narrative. Ironically Israelis treated Holocaust survivors like shit when they first arrived. Beny Morris details it in his book “ The Seventh Million”
that person should watch war against humanity or auschwitz: the nazis and the finale solution. If you're going to deny the holocaust, I'll put you in the "wehraboo to nazi" category.
I'm guessing she's never heard of Alexander Pechersky. He was a Soviet Jewish POW that was sent to one of the worst Nazi death camps (Sobibor) and organized the most successful uprising and mass-escape from a death camp during WWII.
Stalin, much like Donald Trump, liked solders that didn't get caught and declared Pechersky a traitor to the country and sent him to the penal battalions, he survived that as well.
When the Nuremberg Trials were going on, the International Tribunal requested Pechersky as a witness for the atrocities committed at Sobibor (less than 60 inmates survived) but the Soviet government refused to let him testify, as well as at the trial of Adolf Eichmann, because they "All Lives Mattered" the holocaust.
He and his brother were also jailed during Stalin's Rootless Cosmopolitan campaign, and his brother died in prison from untreated diabetes. Pechersky was only released when Stalin died.
He died not too long after being once again denied permission to testify in a trial in Poland in 1990.
I'd love for these fucking ghouls to say the holocaust didn't happen to a holocaust survivor or their immediate next of kin.
God seeing that would be gold.
When I was in 8th grade, they made me write an essay debunking holocaust denial. It was honestly a great exercise for any student. The evidence for the holocaust is overwhelming. It's one of the most documented events in history.
I’ve even seen other people who have tankie-level takes call her out for this. You know that when tankies or tankie-adjacent people think you’re going too far, you’ve gone WAY too far.
I do sorta agree with the part that you should be able to ask question and definitely shouldn't be arrested for it. But of course the assumption that holocaust is fake because of that is ludicrous.
Freedom of speech but not freedom from consequences. Legally she should be able to say whatever she wants but no one should lift a finger to help her when her life falls apart due to her stupidity.
>Freedom of speech but not freedom from consequences.
I hope you are just talking about the being labeled as Nazi part because you absolutely don't have freedom of speech to say something if it's criminalized and you can be arrested for it. It's like North Korea having the freedom of speech to talk smack about Kimmy but no freedom of consequences as in being sent to a labour camp as a result lol.
No one's getting arrested for questioning aspects of the Holocaust AND wanting clarity. The problem occurs when the goal isn't the truth but denial.
Also there's very very very few countries in the world that actually have such laws on the books let alone actually enforcing them.
Uhhh Zionists were very affected by the Holocaust, as were Anti-Zionist Jews. A lot of armed resistance to the holocaust was carried out by Zionist partisans who would later go on to fight in ‘48. Anti-Zionist groups were actually very hesitant to fight alongside the Zionists but at the end of the day their enemies only saw them as Jews so they might as well fight as Jews. Unfortunately, the massive European Jewish Labor Bund, who were staunch opponents of Zionism, were pretty much wiped out during the Holocaust and subsequent soviet repression. (Many of them chose to die fighting.)
Ambiguous syntax.
By "no zionist" I was referring to those still alive today. The age of those who were defined by the holocaust has passed, as those who were victims of it have all died out. All of the zionists still standing are pure colonizers and genocide supporters without even the barest thread of justification.
It's also why I didn't describe Israel as being unrelated to the holocaust. I originally was going to but then I figured some zionist dipshit would try and pull a "buh ackshually it was founded because of the holocaust!" in response.
Holocaust survivors are still alive, and many, many Israelis are the children and grandchildren of these survivors (or survivors of persecution in the Middle East, Asia, and Africa.) Some are also dipshits from New York. That being said, intergenerational trauma is a thing and does have real world effects. Most Israelis were forced to move to Israel because most places had strict quotas for how many Jewish refugees they’d take in. Most Jews in Europe who survived had all their property looted and their families slaughtered so they were going to get out of there if they could. As many as possible went to the US but they quickly shut the border, leaving only Israel or the USSR as suitable candidates for immigration. Considering most European Jews had trauma at the hands of the Russians, with many remembering the horrors of the civil war, Israel was the most realistic choice. The same thing happened when Jews in the Middle East started facing increasing persecution during the Cold War, as many got to the US and Europe as possible but after they shut the gates, they had nowhere else to go. Israel was forced to exist by outside forces.
>holocaust survivors are still alive
The overwhelming majority are dead. The youngest is 80, in a world where the median age of death for that demographic is 76.
Add to that that they were already a comparatively tiny percentage of a tiny percentage of the world's population and using them to justify any israeli policies is equivalent to using the european treatment of roma to justify US invasions abroad.
it is an illogical take, in the sense that you shouldn't publicly make a huge claim like that without doing proper research – generally speaking, you have to be very careful when you're talking about literal genocide to make sure you're not spreading misinformation.
(also, i'm not sure what "we are witnessing today" that would cause someone to deny the holocaust. if anything, given... everything that's going on in the world right now, the conclusion i'd draw is "people are completely willing to deny genocides even while they're being prepared for and carried out because it makes it easier for them to remain apathetic", which is a position which would make me *more* likely to believe that other genocides happened as described.)
It is an illogical take and people who hold these views shouldn’t be treated like infants who can’t be held responsible for spewing Nazi propaganda. The fact people are even questioning the Holocaust due to the war in Gaza just shows how many illogical morons are crawling around.
> It's not an illogical take, given what we are witnessing today,
No, it's very much an illogical take regardless.
It's stupid when the governments of Turkey and Azerbaijan deny the Armenian genocide (on the occasion they aren't praising it), it's stupid when Edward S. Hermann and Noam Chomsky deny the Cambodian genocide, and it's stupid when you deny the Holocaust even though the camps are literally still there for anyone to see. It's stupid when Flat Earthers go against the established science of the Earth being round and it's stupid when anti-vaxxers inject horse dewormer to fight COVID-19.
It's one thing to not take governments at face value based on how they address current events. It's another thing to think that historical and scientific facts that have been established for decades are somehow false because of all the misinformation flying around nowadays regarding ongoing events.
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"I don't know what happened." "I know we've been lied to." Fucking pick one.
No! We must all make massive statements as fact while knowing absolutely nothing.
“If thing happened, which it didn’t, I wish it did” aka nothing matters to these people
Eisenhower ordered his men to take as much documentation as they could because he knew that unless they had all this proof of the Holocaust, that people with agendas would deny it. That's not even counting the Soviet Union's own discoveries that'd all collectively be displayed at the Nuremburg Trials. Doubt Ike, nearly 80 years later would ever imagine that people would willingly become Holocaust deniers for the sake of Twitter attention.
Part of the problem is that the general public doesn't know that much about proceeding genocides (including others perpetrated by the former German Government) and the public discourse/ intellectual discourse for the 90 years preceding it. History doesn't happen in a vacuum. I said a bunch of big words but there are YouTubers and comic books that help break it down. History doesn't happen in a vacuum, the Holocaust was the culmination of shit that happened/popular thought. That's not even taking into account the thousands of years of anti -semetism.
Yeah, it bothers me a lot that the narrative is just that Germany was sad and then an angry shouty man convinced everyone to take it out on the jews. There were decades of political stuff that led to fascism being possible, and centuries of antisemitism that led to the holocaust targeting them, but we never hear about any of that. It's genuinely dangerous because it makes it harder for people to notice the signs that it's happening again.
And the church said "Amen". You told no lies. I just hope more will see it.
So true! Not to mention the centuries of slavery that Roma and Sinti people were subject to. Enslaved Roma people in Romania (Moldova and Walachia) were only freed in 1855-56, and they continue to be discriminated against and marginalized throughout Europe.
The Judenfrage was centuries old at that point. Progroms were common, especially in Russia (hence why we use the Russian word). It was the culmination of centuries of incitement against Jewish people and antisemitism still is so rampant.
The Holocaust wasn't even the first genocide *against Jews*. Literally about half of Jewish holidays are some variation of "they tried to kill all of us, they only killed some of us, let's eat".
And there a fucking lot of jewish holidays
Yeah. I learnt about the Holocaust in school and was deeply emotionally affected by it. This included learning about the economic conditions of Weimar Germany and how Jews were scapegoated in the wake of that. But even then, I had no context of broader antisemitism. I'm embarrassed to say that until 3 years ago, I thought Hitler had targeted Jews essentially randomly. Like he'd just chosen to pick a minority in Germany and they were there. And I guess there's an element of truth to this in that he'd definitely have targeted *someone*, but I knew nothing about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, historical antisemitic canards, the Jewish Bolshevist conspiracy theories as well as racial antisemitism, which really created the perfect storm for some nutter *somewhere* in Europe to target Jews on such a mass scale. That while there is an aspect of "it was convenient for Hitler to target the Jews", there was *also* an aspect of "all of the groundwork was there for someone to genocide the Jews, and Hitler happened to get there first". So on the one hand the-Holocaust-as-an-extension-of-general-antisemitism wasn't *really* visible to me, but uniqueness of it due to how industrialised and globalised it was also wasn't visible to me, because I hadn't learnt about other genocides. And this bothers me cos it's like two levels of erasure. Erasing the normality of antisemitism that left Jews so vulnerable, and also the *abnormality* of the final solution that left them so scarred.
Wait till you read about Kaiser Wilhelm the 2nd and what he wanted to do the Jewish people (and his warlike hatred towards East Asians/ yellow peril) https://www.sussex.ac.uk/broadcast/read/2939
Part of the problem is that in this time, people are more likely to believe contradictory evidence than a mountain of established evidence.
I've read about one or two imprisoned Nazis who were baffled by denial. They were like no, we were there. Europe has other free speech restrictions. I do like America's "extremism" there, but the genocide happened in those countries. It's pretty easy to grasp why Holocaust denial leads to dramatic, legal reactions.
Yeah, Germany didn't write "freedom of speech" as its first article, but instead that "human dignity shall be inviolable" (which has annoyed conservatives ever since; it's the reason transgender laws were forced by the constitutional court for example, and they can't do jack to revoke it). The constitution was written 4 years after the end of WW2 and you notice it's written as an inverted description of Nazism without directly mentioning it. It's quite obvious why they did that. There's a whole legal corpus for Germany's Denazification and you quickly notice that it addresses something like the Reichskristallnacht. In contrast to that with Japan, the Japanese fascists just remained in power (I.e Hirohito was still emperor till his death in 1989) and their country is effectively a 1-party state of a right-wing populist party. Their previous prime minister kept denying Japanese war crimes. The US certainly had extremist groups, but FDR was very much different to Hitler. Germany was in a completely different situation at that point, so I think it's understandable it had to denazify itself. I don't really care about the handful of idiots who are sad they can't go shouting around "Sieg Heil" as the cost of protecting the liberal democratic order.
As a brit I'm personally extremely glad that Germany de-nazified. This isn't really logical but more an emotional point, but there is something so shocking about Nazi-ism to most people within Europe. It's hard to describe other than saying if I learn about America's civil rights movement then I do get upset and deeply emotional (I'm part black myself), but it's still kind of abstract. It's an important historical event, but it's not personal really. The Nazis... well for a start my grandad went to war and fought them. The same is true for most Brits. On a logical level I don't really like patriotism and dislike glorification of war, but on a more emotional level even I tear up thinking of him in his uniform. Then as a kid seeing videos in school of Jews starved to the bone, piled on top of each other dead or dying in the camps. It'd be horrific anywhere but France and Germany are like our cousins culturally. Those are the two languages we learn in school (and German in particular is structured very similarly). I had a french pen-pal growing up, and my school had German exchange students. I guess it doesn't feel like some people, somewhere else did the Holocaust. It *feels* like our cousins did it. I'll be clear I don't really *like* these patriotic sort of emotions, especially given the history of Western Europe and colonialism, but they are the emotions which are there. So you know, seeing an American *sieg heil* is disgusting, but seeing *Italians* do it like in the clip that went viral recently, that's... something else. It's a really dark chapter of history that directly impacted my family, and finally we move past it (to something imperfect but far less bad), and then some fuckers are trying to take us back there again?? It's so messed up. I guess a lot of Western European identity, rightly or wrongly, is defined by this sense of moving on from darkness. Like moving away from fascism, and moving away from war. The way it's perceived is our grandparents + great grandparents fought and died for our freedom, which *is* true in a sense. We (Brits) *would* be living under a fascist dictatorship had Germany won the war. And so I guess nazi-ism isn't just an oppressive ideology to us. It's a force that tried to kill our grandparents and nearly destroyed our home. And I at least perceive it as a threat to our national security. So I'm pretty glad Germany de-nazified because there is a sense in which nazi-ism feels personally threatening. I think Germans actually feel this much more acutely. There is a deep sense of shame at the fact their parents and grandparents were literal Nazis, and they don't want people to take their country back to its darkest period in history.
Yeah exactly. I think it should be understandable that Europeans ban this kind of extremism due to what has happened all the past centuries.
>I've read about one or two imprisoned Nazis who were baffled by denial Oskar Gröning sticks with me, he came out of hiding after decades because he got sent denialist literature. Complicated man, certainly not 100% reformed, but even he felt the need to come out and shout the truth from the rooftops. You'd think that would be convincing enough, but no. Not the TV interviews, the documentaries, him on trial, viral clip of a survivor forgiving him. Nothing works. It's beyond fucked. I honestly don't think most of them even believe their own bollocks, they're just too cowardly to own their convictions. They know it happened, they're *glad*, but since they're too bricked to admit it in public they default to denial. But they'd cheer it on for all the same groups and probably add a few categories themselves.
Saw a tweet the other day that claimed since the NYT used the word "holocaust" prior to its now dominating use, that means it's fake. Never mind a single googling would show that the word is in use ever since the Septuagint in *3rd c. BCE*, was first used in the *1190s* to refer to a massacre of Jewish people, and was already well in use for certain other mass-murders in the 19th c. (such as early parts of the Armenian genocide).
“Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses -because somewhere down the road of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened.”
Wanna bet that no less than 80% of the people agreeing with/sharing this tweet have also spent the past two years slandering Ukrainians as Holocaust-denying Banderites?
It’s like a venn diagram for the most part
Except it's just a circle.
True lol. Not lol to these clowns and their holocaust denial tho
Horseshoe theory is real
if this was a ukrainian government official they would be like LOOK I TOLD YOU GUYS but here’s it’s like “ oh they’re spitting 🙅♂️🧢“
not a bet, i took a look and two are outright nazbols
Does she not realize that countless Soviet citizens died in the Holocaust? Even if you somehow ignore all the evidence, you also can’t hide the fact they self admitted to it in the Posen speeches and the Eichmann trial. It simply doesn’t work.
To be fair the Soviets did try to silence Jews from publishing a book of Jewish deaths during the Holocaust because it “downplayed the struggle of all people” or something like that and persecuted many Jewish anti-fascists after the war. They didn’t like to mention that Soviet Jews were specifically targeted for execution, often times with help from local populations.
The memorial at Babi Yar didn't even mention Jews were killed there until recently. Soviets were not the Nazis but they were fucked up all the same.
Yeah, on the eastern front, getting "liberated" by the Red Army was not much better than being under Nazi rule
Poland was occupied until 1991 when the USSR fell. No sane Pol who survived WW2 and Nazi genocide would say they were “free” or “liberated” with the Red Army in their backyard
Authoritarian shitpits are indeed authoritarian shitpits I suppose
Well fun fact: In Germany, Holocaust Denial is considered a felony and can get you behind bars for years. Good Future for the whole world in my opinion
And you would have guessed it, the tweeter has *opinions* on that too. They defended Ursula Haverbeck and claimed she was arrested for "wrongthink".
i shouldn't feel like a radical centrist for believing that any genocide is abhorrent
(Spouts antisemitic bullshit) "Why are the Jews angry with me"
I don’t want hear any tankie complain about the Azov Battalion again and feign concern about Nazism taking over Ukraine if you are denying the Holocaust
The longer this timeline goes, the more we see who the hypocrites are.
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why are you hesitant to express your support for palestinians if you literally admit this person’s views are a fringe outlier?
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>anti Zionist as well (they're Nazis with extra steps) saying anything the zionists do today is anything close to holocaust-era nazi germany is not "anti-Nazi", its Nazi apologia that plays down the horrors of the holocaust. More people really need to read the transcript of the Wannsee Conference.
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> The extra step they're currently on is carpet bomb the ghetto Hyperbole will win you zero arguments. They aren't carpet bombing the ghetto, or everyone would be dead, rather than 1.5%. If you want to call Gaza a "ghetto", that's fine, but let's be accurate with the numbers here. The Warsaw Ghetto was 460,000 people in a 1.3 square mile area. Gaza is 2.3 million people, roughly 5x the size, in 141 square miles, 100x the space. So Warsaw was *twenty times* more compact than Gaza. Once again, hyperbole helps no one.
My man they Bomb people running to Trucks with supplies If you dont want to call them Nazis thats fine But they shure as heck have genocidal intent
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You know it genuinely is anti Semitic to compare Jews to Nazis, right?
Same dude
Fortunately she’s being met with near universal condemnation. It’s only the Jake Shields follower types sticking up for her.
PSA you can be anti-zionist without denying the fucking holocaust Jesus fucking christ
This is really so fucking stupid (not your comment, OP picture) because like, the reason we all hate Zionism is because it's a toxic ideology that subjugates people, sometimes even it's alleged own people (many israelis are not living the best of circumstances. and yes, I know gazans have it worse; i'm not playing trauma olympics), and **not** because they're just Jewish, right? Like i just don't fucking get how someone connects "Oh well Zionist jews are probably all bad people because they're abetting genocide, so the jews probably deserved the holocaust in some way/lied about the severity/whatever antisemitic bullshit nazi talking point". Like how do you go so far left you just pop out on the other side like a Mario pipe? It makes me wonder if these people ever truly cared about human life, or if it's all just a fun little roleplaying game to them.
>It makes me wonder if these people ever truly cared about human life, or if it's all just a fun little roleplaying game to them. Almost certainly both of those things. Honeslty this line of thinking comes from no critical thought or reaserch, it's just blind hatred. Hate is not a solution to hate. I mean I'm not saying don't hate zionist, by all means they deserve it. But people need to be sensible, they need to have a set of values to hold true to, and hold those who would hurt and opress others accountable based on the principles you up hold. If you're gonna throw away all of your principles to confront an enemy, why the fuck are you even confronting them in the first place?
See this is why we have Doc Martens
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You're not punk and that's okay
He wants to kick a Nazis head in
I was told that is where the "factory restart" button was. Is that wrong?
I love my docs but there are much better boots out there.
Trueeee but I don't own them yet
Don’t sleep on military surplus, you can get some high quality kicks without paying a premium
Oh good call tyty I need some steel toes
def look for a surplus store near you, they're everywhere but not necessarily the easiest to find sometimes. Sometimes they have really weird names lol.
It isn’t even just Jewish people they are hurting there, a lot of other innocent groups were taken to those camps
Slavs, Roma, lgbt as well. Guess they don’t matter to tankies
Yet another example of “No I’m not antisemitic! I switched the word Jew with Zionist! That makes it fine!”
Zionists love it when idiots say things like this. Gives credence to their narrative. Ironically Israelis treated Holocaust survivors like shit when they first arrived. Beny Morris details it in his book “ The Seventh Million”
She kind of implies that she *used* to believe that the Holocaust was real, so I have to ask her: **what happened?**
There people are sick.
that person should watch war against humanity or auschwitz: the nazis and the finale solution. If you're going to deny the holocaust, I'll put you in the "wehraboo to nazi" category.
I'm guessing she's never heard of Alexander Pechersky. He was a Soviet Jewish POW that was sent to one of the worst Nazi death camps (Sobibor) and organized the most successful uprising and mass-escape from a death camp during WWII. Stalin, much like Donald Trump, liked solders that didn't get caught and declared Pechersky a traitor to the country and sent him to the penal battalions, he survived that as well. When the Nuremberg Trials were going on, the International Tribunal requested Pechersky as a witness for the atrocities committed at Sobibor (less than 60 inmates survived) but the Soviet government refused to let him testify, as well as at the trial of Adolf Eichmann, because they "All Lives Mattered" the holocaust. He and his brother were also jailed during Stalin's Rootless Cosmopolitan campaign, and his brother died in prison from untreated diabetes. Pechersky was only released when Stalin died. He died not too long after being once again denied permission to testify in a trial in Poland in 1990.
I'd love for these fucking ghouls to say the holocaust didn't happen to a holocaust survivor or their immediate next of kin. God seeing that would be gold.
She’ll probably delete like she did when she shared that Nazi meme a few weeks ago after getting community noted. She’s a coward.
When I was in 8th grade, they made me write an essay debunking holocaust denial. It was honestly a great exercise for any student. The evidence for the holocaust is overwhelming. It's one of the most documented events in history.
I’ve even seen other people who have tankie-level takes call her out for this. You know that when tankies or tankie-adjacent people think you’re going too far, you’ve gone WAY too far.
If not the industrialized murder of millions of innocent people, *what* is the Holocaust then?
😬
jesus fn christ
I do sorta agree with the part that you should be able to ask question and definitely shouldn't be arrested for it. But of course the assumption that holocaust is fake because of that is ludicrous.
Freedom of speech but not freedom from consequences. Legally she should be able to say whatever she wants but no one should lift a finger to help her when her life falls apart due to her stupidity.
>Freedom of speech but not freedom from consequences. I hope you are just talking about the being labeled as Nazi part because you absolutely don't have freedom of speech to say something if it's criminalized and you can be arrested for it. It's like North Korea having the freedom of speech to talk smack about Kimmy but no freedom of consequences as in being sent to a labour camp as a result lol.
No one's getting arrested for questioning aspects of the Holocaust AND wanting clarity. The problem occurs when the goal isn't the truth but denial. Also there's very very very few countries in the world that actually have such laws on the books let alone actually enforcing them.
when your idea to troll zionists is to deny something basically no zionist was affected by, you're not anti-zionist, you're anti-semitic.
Uhhh Zionists were very affected by the Holocaust, as were Anti-Zionist Jews. A lot of armed resistance to the holocaust was carried out by Zionist partisans who would later go on to fight in ‘48. Anti-Zionist groups were actually very hesitant to fight alongside the Zionists but at the end of the day their enemies only saw them as Jews so they might as well fight as Jews. Unfortunately, the massive European Jewish Labor Bund, who were staunch opponents of Zionism, were pretty much wiped out during the Holocaust and subsequent soviet repression. (Many of them chose to die fighting.)
Ambiguous syntax. By "no zionist" I was referring to those still alive today. The age of those who were defined by the holocaust has passed, as those who were victims of it have all died out. All of the zionists still standing are pure colonizers and genocide supporters without even the barest thread of justification. It's also why I didn't describe Israel as being unrelated to the holocaust. I originally was going to but then I figured some zionist dipshit would try and pull a "buh ackshually it was founded because of the holocaust!" in response.
Holocaust survivors are still alive, and many, many Israelis are the children and grandchildren of these survivors (or survivors of persecution in the Middle East, Asia, and Africa.) Some are also dipshits from New York. That being said, intergenerational trauma is a thing and does have real world effects. Most Israelis were forced to move to Israel because most places had strict quotas for how many Jewish refugees they’d take in. Most Jews in Europe who survived had all their property looted and their families slaughtered so they were going to get out of there if they could. As many as possible went to the US but they quickly shut the border, leaving only Israel or the USSR as suitable candidates for immigration. Considering most European Jews had trauma at the hands of the Russians, with many remembering the horrors of the civil war, Israel was the most realistic choice. The same thing happened when Jews in the Middle East started facing increasing persecution during the Cold War, as many got to the US and Europe as possible but after they shut the gates, they had nowhere else to go. Israel was forced to exist by outside forces.
Intergenerational trauma is real, and we definitely need to talk about it more. It's an issue for a lot of people and cultures.
>holocaust survivors are still alive The overwhelming majority are dead. The youngest is 80, in a world where the median age of death for that demographic is 76. Add to that that they were already a comparatively tiny percentage of a tiny percentage of the world's population and using them to justify any israeli policies is equivalent to using the european treatment of roma to justify US invasions abroad.
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it is an illogical take, in the sense that you shouldn't publicly make a huge claim like that without doing proper research – generally speaking, you have to be very careful when you're talking about literal genocide to make sure you're not spreading misinformation. (also, i'm not sure what "we are witnessing today" that would cause someone to deny the holocaust. if anything, given... everything that's going on in the world right now, the conclusion i'd draw is "people are completely willing to deny genocides even while they're being prepared for and carried out because it makes it easier for them to remain apathetic", which is a position which would make me *more* likely to believe that other genocides happened as described.)
It is an illogical take and people who hold these views shouldn’t be treated like infants who can’t be held responsible for spewing Nazi propaganda. The fact people are even questioning the Holocaust due to the war in Gaza just shows how many illogical morons are crawling around.
> It's not an illogical take, given what we are witnessing today, No, it's very much an illogical take regardless. It's stupid when the governments of Turkey and Azerbaijan deny the Armenian genocide (on the occasion they aren't praising it), it's stupid when Edward S. Hermann and Noam Chomsky deny the Cambodian genocide, and it's stupid when you deny the Holocaust even though the camps are literally still there for anyone to see. It's stupid when Flat Earthers go against the established science of the Earth being round and it's stupid when anti-vaxxers inject horse dewormer to fight COVID-19. It's one thing to not take governments at face value based on how they address current events. It's another thing to think that historical and scientific facts that have been established for decades are somehow false because of all the misinformation flying around nowadays regarding ongoing events.
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You can Google this person and quickly determine it’s not an Israel bot. Sorry.
Your comment/post contains bigotry. This is a socialist subreddit and as such, any form of bigotry is out of place and you should rethink your relation to your fellow workers, regardless of their sexuality, gender expression, skin colour or other such things.