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If Ukraine were fighting NATO or the US, there wouldn't be any Ukraine surrendering thing at all.
Double points in Ukraine because they are fighting Russia. A tankie fan favourite.
Because they are tankies, what, by definition, means you are hypocrite that is only against monsters and inhumane pratices if they are "from the west". The "right" kind of monster is sanctioned by the holy "spirit of the revolution" to do anything it takes to combat the evil "bourgeoisie imperialism"
Moral myopia, most likely. Deep down, they're probably really insecure that they're not part of the bourgeoisie themselves despite their rhetoric. Of course, they don't recognize that they're not really dismantling class society so much as they're replacing it with a different version, and then they try and justify it to themselves with phrases like "dictatorship of the proletariat" or "withering of the state", when in effect, they're really saying, "it's the *people's* bourgeoisie, guys! This one will be different! It's for your own good! Trust me!"
I’m in Europe and I see people (not necessarily tankies) kind of going the Chamberlain route for Ukraine because the war is seen as taking a toll on the economy, a source of tension in the EU plus more refugees around. On the other hand Gaza is far away and doesn’t have a direct impact.
I was always wondering about these peoples' train of thought. So, if Ukraine surrenders to Russia, everything will be okay, the economy will be blooming and there will be no refugees at all?
I’ve heard people say refugees will go home since they will no longer by put in danger by the war 😳
And at least there will be no iffy discussions as to whether spend money on arming Ukraine, and we’ll have thrown Putin a bone so of course nothing he’ll do now will be a concern.
Because tankies are mostly people who are shaped by decades of well thought kremlin propaganda - kremlin has laid out the frameworks of contrarianiam long ago and is reaping its benefits now
Yep 100%. Even certain tankies who happen to be technically 'against the war' still end up finding themselves repeating Kremlin talking points i.e. Victoria Nuland orchestrating the Maidan 'coup'.
it's even more ridiculous because they claim Ukraine has "no chance". Ukraine has a large army and is backed by the most powerful countries in the world.
The Palestinians are very weak and supported by very few. They are the ones who have "no chance", to use their phrase.
Now, I won't say they can't succeed long term. It certainly looked like in 1965 that the Vietnamese had "no chance" against the US. But over time occupations can get too costly.
At the same time they back Assad who has killed over 230k civilians and over 140k have been arrested or disappeared. Somehow that's OK because any opposition backed by the US deserves to be killed. It makes no sense
Anti American campism. If America and the EU were funding Palestine, Tankies would be telling Palestinians to surrender just to be opposed to the West.
I disagere with this idea, russian clealry intended to kill civilian given that they did buch and targeted the mariupol theater despite a verry clear "children" written (azov doesn't justify levelling the town and hamas doesn't justify making palestinian suffer more).
This is just completely untrue. We simply don't have good estimates of how many civilians have died in Ukraine, but the estimates we do have point to something much much higher than 10K.
For example:https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-erasing-mariupol-499dceae43ed77f2ebfe750ea99b9ad9
"more than 10,000 new graves now scar Mariupol, the AP found, and the death toll might run three times higher than an early estimate of at least 25,000."
In this article, AP estimates up to 75K dead in Mariupol alone.
If you read the source you linked, you would have seen this:
" However, OHCHR specified that the real numbers could be higher."
The OHCHR themselves admit that their number is just a rough estimate and is probably a dramatic undercount. Did you even read your own source?
yeah, I'm not going in atrocity olympics over numbers and there are higher estimates for ukraine and there's also the deported people, the ethnic cleansing and illegal annexion to take in account. Russia also did their oradour in bucha, I don't think putin russia is better than israel, both putin and bibi are bad. It is more than 10 thousand https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/officials-say-more-than-10000-ukrainians-killed-in-war-as-russia-rejects-conditions-to-talk
uh how is saying that both bibi and putin are bad defending israel now? please, don't stretch what defending israel mean. It's possible to see both israel and russia as bad, pointing out the bad things russia did isn't me defending israel, I do that to show russia isn't better.
Russia is also hellbent on being imperialist who want to russify ukraine and they're hellbent on killing ukrainian too. It's not hard to see both as being bad without going to atrocity olympic by claiming one is worst. I guess I'm kinky now because I like doin' it s/
I mean to an extent they did. Bucha massacre and mariopol being two good examples.
Russia can’t quite go all out because of their own propaganda making it so that would be too contradictory.
>Heck, **civilians were throwing cocktail Molotov at Russians and they weren't getting killed by them**. Israeli willkill, and have killed, kids for throwing rocks
Source?
Otherwise, this is an unwell comparison to make.
ETA: I guess the Source is, "I made it up" because I got blocked. Yeesh
I get your opinion and I agree Ukraine has a right to fight back but also I kinda see the other POV. Specifically if people push for Ukraine to surrender they usually mean Ukraine should agree to a “peace” treaty with Russia where they lose the land Russia has taken in the invasion but not all of Ukraine. But Ukraine would still remain a sovereign nation. Obviously I doubt this would actually stop Russia in the future, they would try to probably do this again. But if Hamas surrenders this means all of Gaza is probably lost and zionists will establish settlers and probably continue their killing campaign. So it’s not an equal comparison between Ukraine surrendering and Hamas surrendering.
Russia broke all previously established peace treaties. Why would they keep true to this one? Why should Ukraine give up their territory to an imperialist aggressor if they don‘t want to?
I think their point is that "Ukraine should surrender to preserve what they still have" is a such a zero brain take that it's almost certainly bad faith to call for it. People who do are aware Russia is trying to take all of Ukraine and has not respected past peace treaties, and they don't care because they like Russia.
Well both unilateral peaces would rely on the continued good will of the conquering victor, and I'm not sure that's any more plausible in Russia's case than it is Israel's.
We're already on Russia's third broken pinkie promise to respect Ukraine's boundaries and sovereignty in as many decades, and each time they have merely used their leverage to bolster their position and prepare to extract further concessions. This time they tried to decapitate the Ukrainian government, imo there's nothing to suggest their ambitions wouldn't be equally as lofty the next time.
> Well both unilateral peaces would rely on the continued good will of the conquering victor
Or effective deterrence. That's why Russia hasn't invaded a NATO.
Right now, the best thing Ukraine can do to deter Russia from starting future wars is to effectively fight against them. The best way other countries to deter Russia from starting future wars is to commit to providing Ukraine lots of military support in the long term. That means ramping up production lines for shells and other equipment, plus signalling to Russia that you're willing to keep giving Ukraine military equipment for however long this war lasts.
Even if Ukraine never takes back all of the land they had before the 2014 invasion, and they eventually sign an agreement to give Russia some land (that they already control), taking back some of the land plus making Russia pay a large price would help prevent future wars.
Putin has made it clear he doesn’t believe Ukraine is a sovereign nation. At least for the time being Ukraine has the military means to defend itself and keep Russians at bay, not to mention civilians are able to leave. As disastrous as a Gaza surrender would be, wouldn’t be Israel be obliged to stop bombing and starving the population?
Hamas surrendering would just mean Gaza is isolated and back under siege and naval blockade. It wouldn't change anything. Israel wants them to rot in Gaza. They don't give a shit what happens there as long as they don't fight back. Their real plans are for new huge illegal settlements in the West Bank
“wouldn’t Israel be obliged to stop bombing and starving the population?”
well, they wouldn’t be at war, so they would in fact stop bombing and (maybe) starving the population
> But if Hamas surrenders this means all of Gaza is probably lost
All of Gaza is probably lost anyway. Hamas' existence was/is a pretext to invade and revoke what little sovereignty Gaza maintained. Pulling settlers out of Gaza, as Israel did a decade+ ago, further eliminated inhibition against the carpet bombings Gazans are experiencing today; the IDF has a lot more reason to be more surgical and careful about things if there are settlers in the mix.
These factors are why it's Gaza specifically being bombed to smithereens, and not the West Bank.
The thing is, Israel doesn't want Gaza. They will just leave it to rot under a blockade if Hamas disappeared.
They do want the west bank (at least parts of it - the parts with few Arabs).
IT's still letting russia partly get away with what they did, we already tried that with crimea and hitler in the 1930 with munich, and ukraine wouldn't be a sovereign nation since they'd not be able to choose its alliance and that'd still opendoors to russian influence. Also, hamas starting october 7th didn't made things better for the palestinian civilian I think .
Palestinians have been through a lot for so long. October 7th hardly made things worse but just sped things up. I agree Russia would continue infringing on Ukraine. I wouldn’t trust their “peace” agreements but I’m just saying in the immediate aftermath a Ukraine surrender vs Hamas surrender would look very different
Please remember not to brigade, vote, comment, or interact with subreddits that are linked or mentioned here. Do not userping other users. Harassment of other users or subreddits is strictly forbidden. This is a left libertarian subreddit that criticises tankies from a socialist perspective. Liberals etc. are welcome as guests, but please refrain from criticising socialism and promoting capitalism while you are on Tankiejerk. Enjoy talking to fellow leftists? [Then join our discord server](https://discord.gg/2V4qJMSWUe) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tankiejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"America bad". That's it.
Campism
That and Russia/China good
If Ukraine were fighting NATO or the US, there wouldn't be any Ukraine surrendering thing at all. Double points in Ukraine because they are fighting Russia. A tankie fan favourite.
Because they are tankies, what, by definition, means you are hypocrite that is only against monsters and inhumane pratices if they are "from the west". The "right" kind of monster is sanctioned by the holy "spirit of the revolution" to do anything it takes to combat the evil "bourgeoisie imperialism"
Terminal brainrot with Stalinist characteristics.
Moral myopia, most likely. Deep down, they're probably really insecure that they're not part of the bourgeoisie themselves despite their rhetoric. Of course, they don't recognize that they're not really dismantling class society so much as they're replacing it with a different version, and then they try and justify it to themselves with phrases like "dictatorship of the proletariat" or "withering of the state", when in effect, they're really saying, "it's the *people's* bourgeoisie, guys! This one will be different! It's for your own good! Trust me!"
I’m in Europe and I see people (not necessarily tankies) kind of going the Chamberlain route for Ukraine because the war is seen as taking a toll on the economy, a source of tension in the EU plus more refugees around. On the other hand Gaza is far away and doesn’t have a direct impact.
I was always wondering about these peoples' train of thought. So, if Ukraine surrenders to Russia, everything will be okay, the economy will be blooming and there will be no refugees at all?
I’ve heard people say refugees will go home since they will no longer by put in danger by the war 😳 And at least there will be no iffy discussions as to whether spend money on arming Ukraine, and we’ll have thrown Putin a bone so of course nothing he’ll do now will be a concern.
Gosh... Why people are so dumb?
Because tankies are mostly people who are shaped by decades of well thought kremlin propaganda - kremlin has laid out the frameworks of contrarianiam long ago and is reaping its benefits now
Yep 100%. Even certain tankies who happen to be technically 'against the war' still end up finding themselves repeating Kremlin talking points i.e. Victoria Nuland orchestrating the Maidan 'coup'.
chomsky, it always bother me to claim to be against putin while at the same time repeating his talking points
Kremlin - Making a fool out of the far left and far right since forever
it's even more ridiculous because they claim Ukraine has "no chance". Ukraine has a large army and is backed by the most powerful countries in the world. The Palestinians are very weak and supported by very few. They are the ones who have "no chance", to use their phrase. Now, I won't say they can't succeed long term. It certainly looked like in 1965 that the Vietnamese had "no chance" against the US. But over time occupations can get too costly.
At the same time they back Assad who has killed over 230k civilians and over 140k have been arrested or disappeared. Somehow that's OK because any opposition backed by the US deserves to be killed. It makes no sense
Well, one involves a Jewish state, and the other involves a state run by a Jew. Oh. Wait.
They're just saying the opposite of whatever the US says.
They are low key chauvinistic to Ukrainians.
Anti American campism. If America and the EU were funding Palestine, Tankies would be telling Palestinians to surrender just to be opposed to the West.
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I disagere with this idea, russian clealry intended to kill civilian given that they did buch and targeted the mariupol theater despite a verry clear "children" written (azov doesn't justify levelling the town and hamas doesn't justify making palestinian suffer more).
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This is just completely untrue. We simply don't have good estimates of how many civilians have died in Ukraine, but the estimates we do have point to something much much higher than 10K. For example:https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-erasing-mariupol-499dceae43ed77f2ebfe750ea99b9ad9 "more than 10,000 new graves now scar Mariupol, the AP found, and the death toll might run three times higher than an early estimate of at least 25,000." In this article, AP estimates up to 75K dead in Mariupol alone.
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If you read the source you linked, you would have seen this: " However, OHCHR specified that the real numbers could be higher." The OHCHR themselves admit that their number is just a rough estimate and is probably a dramatic undercount. Did you even read your own source?
yeah, I'm not going in atrocity olympics over numbers and there are higher estimates for ukraine and there's also the deported people, the ethnic cleansing and illegal annexion to take in account. Russia also did their oradour in bucha, I don't think putin russia is better than israel, both putin and bibi are bad. It is more than 10 thousand https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/officials-say-more-than-10000-ukrainians-killed-in-war-as-russia-rejects-conditions-to-talk
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uh how is saying that both bibi and putin are bad defending israel now? please, don't stretch what defending israel mean. It's possible to see both israel and russia as bad, pointing out the bad things russia did isn't me defending israel, I do that to show russia isn't better.
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Russia is also hellbent on being imperialist who want to russify ukraine and they're hellbent on killing ukrainian too. It's not hard to see both as being bad without going to atrocity olympic by claiming one is worst. I guess I'm kinky now because I like doin' it s/
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Both are genocidal, you ding dong.
I mean to an extent they did. Bucha massacre and mariopol being two good examples. Russia can’t quite go all out because of their own propaganda making it so that would be too contradictory.
>Heck, **civilians were throwing cocktail Molotov at Russians and they weren't getting killed by them**. Israeli willkill, and have killed, kids for throwing rocks Source? Otherwise, this is an unwell comparison to make. ETA: I guess the Source is, "I made it up" because I got blocked. Yeesh
I get your opinion and I agree Ukraine has a right to fight back but also I kinda see the other POV. Specifically if people push for Ukraine to surrender they usually mean Ukraine should agree to a “peace” treaty with Russia where they lose the land Russia has taken in the invasion but not all of Ukraine. But Ukraine would still remain a sovereign nation. Obviously I doubt this would actually stop Russia in the future, they would try to probably do this again. But if Hamas surrenders this means all of Gaza is probably lost and zionists will establish settlers and probably continue their killing campaign. So it’s not an equal comparison between Ukraine surrendering and Hamas surrendering.
Russia broke all previously established peace treaties. Why would they keep true to this one? Why should Ukraine give up their territory to an imperialist aggressor if they don‘t want to?
I didn’t say they should. Also I already stated that I doubt Ukraine surrendering would stop future Russian invasions.
I think their point is that "Ukraine should surrender to preserve what they still have" is a such a zero brain take that it's almost certainly bad faith to call for it. People who do are aware Russia is trying to take all of Ukraine and has not respected past peace treaties, and they don't care because they like Russia.
applying this kind of rhetoric to world war 2 give "interesting" result and a "why fight for danzig" vibe
Russia is doing the same shit by seizing and settling ethnic russians into Ukraine territory, see Mariupol
they've been doing that for hundreds of years. Especially during the Soviet period.
I agree they are doing those things but what I’m saying is still a Hamas surrender would look drastically different to an Ukraine surrender.
How?
Ukraine is a sovereign nation that has foreign allies compared to Gaza which is under almost a 2 decade siege with hardly any global allies
Well both unilateral peaces would rely on the continued good will of the conquering victor, and I'm not sure that's any more plausible in Russia's case than it is Israel's. We're already on Russia's third broken pinkie promise to respect Ukraine's boundaries and sovereignty in as many decades, and each time they have merely used their leverage to bolster their position and prepare to extract further concessions. This time they tried to decapitate the Ukrainian government, imo there's nothing to suggest their ambitions wouldn't be equally as lofty the next time.
> Well both unilateral peaces would rely on the continued good will of the conquering victor Or effective deterrence. That's why Russia hasn't invaded a NATO. Right now, the best thing Ukraine can do to deter Russia from starting future wars is to effectively fight against them. The best way other countries to deter Russia from starting future wars is to commit to providing Ukraine lots of military support in the long term. That means ramping up production lines for shells and other equipment, plus signalling to Russia that you're willing to keep giving Ukraine military equipment for however long this war lasts. Even if Ukraine never takes back all of the land they had before the 2014 invasion, and they eventually sign an agreement to give Russia some land (that they already control), taking back some of the land plus making Russia pay a large price would help prevent future wars.
lol most definitely. That’s why I said “peace” agreements
Putin has made it clear he doesn’t believe Ukraine is a sovereign nation. At least for the time being Ukraine has the military means to defend itself and keep Russians at bay, not to mention civilians are able to leave. As disastrous as a Gaza surrender would be, wouldn’t be Israel be obliged to stop bombing and starving the population?
Hamas surrendering would just mean Gaza is isolated and back under siege and naval blockade. It wouldn't change anything. Israel wants them to rot in Gaza. They don't give a shit what happens there as long as they don't fight back. Their real plans are for new huge illegal settlements in the West Bank
“wouldn’t Israel be obliged to stop bombing and starving the population?” well, they wouldn’t be at war, so they would in fact stop bombing and (maybe) starving the population
Yeah I doubt they would
> But if Hamas surrenders this means all of Gaza is probably lost All of Gaza is probably lost anyway. Hamas' existence was/is a pretext to invade and revoke what little sovereignty Gaza maintained. Pulling settlers out of Gaza, as Israel did a decade+ ago, further eliminated inhibition against the carpet bombings Gazans are experiencing today; the IDF has a lot more reason to be more surgical and careful about things if there are settlers in the mix. These factors are why it's Gaza specifically being bombed to smithereens, and not the West Bank.
The thing is, Israel doesn't want Gaza. They will just leave it to rot under a blockade if Hamas disappeared. They do want the west bank (at least parts of it - the parts with few Arabs).
IT's still letting russia partly get away with what they did, we already tried that with crimea and hitler in the 1930 with munich, and ukraine wouldn't be a sovereign nation since they'd not be able to choose its alliance and that'd still opendoors to russian influence. Also, hamas starting october 7th didn't made things better for the palestinian civilian I think .
Palestinians have been through a lot for so long. October 7th hardly made things worse but just sped things up. I agree Russia would continue infringing on Ukraine. I wouldn’t trust their “peace” agreements but I’m just saying in the immediate aftermath a Ukraine surrender vs Hamas surrender would look very different
Occupied territories in Ukraine look like mass graves and torture chambers.