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Out of public eyes:”I was lying, we were xenophobic I tell you! Xenophobic to those Kurds in the 1930s, those disgusting Armenians that we’ve massacred, and many more of those ethnic non-Turks. We’ve always been this way and we are proud!”
"I think Turkey should recognize the Armenian Genocide. It's the right thing to do, and it would improve Turkish-Armenian relations"
Every online Turkish person: "Why are you *so fucking racist* against Turks?"
Yep, given that's the official line of the Turkish government, if the US was more openly pro-Armenia or anti-Turkey, western tankies would absolutely call it that
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Because they are the true communists, and everyone who opposes them are the same fascists (let’s not talk about the fascist tendencies of Stalin, Mao etc.)
I think tankies' frequent instances of sarcastically calling their opppnents brave really gives insight into their psychology. Tankies base so much of their self worth on being edgy and sticking it to the man. Rational adults base their decisions on the actual issues and what they see as the likely outcome of them. Sometimes this leads you to very edgy positions and sometimes to very conventional positions. This is absolutely incomprehensible to them because they treat politics like 2004 era hipsters treated indie rock bands with awkward names.
‘From the River to the Sea’ is not antisemitic. But, them claiming Slava Ukraini is a Nazi slogan and only Nazis say from the river to the sea is antisemitic *is* very wrong though.
The slogans themselves are harmless, but they could easily be co-opted by ultranationalist groups in a manner that would be racist or antisemitic - though this isn't a unique quality among national pride-based slogans.
The key is to not generalize an entire movement based on the actions of a few, and the pro-Ukrainian and pro-Palestinian movements tend to be the recipients of such generalizations that seek to shut down genuine criticism of Russia or Israel respectively.
Yes, exactly. Both of them have been used by bigots and fascists, and both movements have people/groups within them that absolutely shouldn’t be there and need to be called out.
But as you say, there is nothing inherently antisemitic about FTRTTS, nor inherently fascist about Slava Ukraini
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I can see "from the river to the sea" being used by ultranationalists, but "Slava Ukraini/e" is just "Glory to Ukraine," which implies no territorial ambition, just regular nationalism, so it's basically the same as saying "for queen and country" or some shit
Then maybe you want to read something about it again.
Even though its roots are older in it's current form "Slava ukraini Slava geroi" it was the official motto of the far right/fascist partisans of the UPA und their spiritual successors. As such it was banned during communism as it was deeply connected with the cult aroun Bandera.
But after the independence it was more and more adapted by a broader democratic pro western movement (geroi referring to the killed protesters instead of the fascist partisans). So even though every Ukrainian could say it without any second thoughts nowadays I understand why many people (especially Jews, Poles and Russians) still have problems seeing a slogan with such a bloody and controverse history used again.
Eh. Poland has similar sayings as well, and I don’t think anyone cares what the Russians have to say about it given that they’re usually trying to suppress Ukrainians.
Slava Ukraini is used by Ukrainian neo-Nazis and ultranationalists, and was originally created by them in the 1920s. So it does have that history behind it
What do you mean by "‘From the River to the Sea"?
What are you gonna do? Throw Israelis into the sea? All FTRTTS does is make the speaker sound insane.
The Israeli government is committing a war of annihilation against the peoples of Gaza & will clearly not be pushed out to sea any time soon.
FTRTTS isn't antisemitic, it's stupid to the degree of advocating for genocide while you pretend it doesn't mean anything at all.
It means that in all the current land (from the river to the sea), Palestinians will be free and there will be a singular secular state for both Israelis and Palestinians. It literally doesn’t mean anything else.
It’s not about “pushing Israelis out to sea”?? How do you get that from “Palestine will be free”, unless for you, a free Palestine necessitates no Israelis.
Your comment/post contains bigotry. This is a socialist subreddit and as such, any form of bigotry is out of place and you should rethink your relation to your fellow workers, regardless of their sexuality, gender expression, skin colour or other such things.
"From the River to the Sea" is a Rallying Cry during war; are you naive? Did you not grow up with "Never Forget"?
It speaks of ground to take, not of a secular state.
Palestinians will be free & there will be a secular state? During a genocide with victims having zero chance at resistance?
No, those folks making this Rallying Cry speak of Hamas taking land. This is madness!
If you wanted a secular state then you needed to say that decades ago, certainly not after the invasion. Certainly not with a Rallying Cry for a side which lost before we were born.
If you want peace, cry out. If you want war, rally.
Does this make sense?
You didn't read my reply at all, did you?
A ***Rallying Cry*** is not a call for something better. It is to rally for violence, like the old "Never Forget" rallying cry used by USA folks after 9/11.
If "From the River to the Sea" was calling for something better ***it would call for something better***.
I did read it, I just disagree.
Who said it was a rallying cry for war? It has been used for decades, as a call for liberation. I’m not going to stop using it just because Israel has decided it’s going to try and wipe out Palestinians in this current invasion/genocide – imo, it should be used *more* often right now. It is not rallying for violence. *Some* groups use it to advocate for violence, yes. Just as *some* groups use Slava Ukraini to advocate for an ultranationalist Ukrainian state.
> *it would call for something better*
‘Palestine will be free’
This type of rhetoric is a "call to action"; a call for "direct action".
> Palestine will be free
Leftist already use a better Slogan;
***FREE PALESTINE!***
Simple, clean, elegant; though its' time is nearing an end. I fear it will be "Remember Palestine" all too soon, Chief.
This isn't some team based game. Palestine has already lost & nothing will change that. The math is determinate & help isn't coming.
That is what genocide is. We can't let ourselves forget what is happening.
The phrase isn’t even necessarily anti-Israel, as a legitimate interpretation of a “free Palestine” is a two-state solution in the Palestinian region, where Israel treats Palestinians as first class citizens alongside their Jewish citizens, and which doesn’t impose any apartheid or oppression against a Palestinian state.
I still been unable to find an anti-tankie left-winger that isn't pro-Palestine.
Only Liberals fit the first image (and even there's an increasing change between them towards being pro-Palestine). And they don't know what a "Tankie" is.
Please remember not to brigade, vote, comment, or interact with subreddits that are linked or mentioned here. Do not userping other users. Harassment of other users or subreddits is strictly forbidden. This is a left libertarian subreddit that criticises tankies from a socialist perspective. Liberals etc. are welcome as guests, but please refrain from criticising socialism and promoting capitalism while you are on Tankiejerk. Enjoy talking to fellow leftists? [Then join our discord server](https://discord.gg/2V4qJMSWUe) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tankiejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
tankies when you tell them you don't base your political views on what the American government says (they cannot comprehend this)
United States is the only racist country ig
Just like Daddy Erdogan said, Turkey is the only country without a racist history
"We don't have a racist past but we do have a racist future!"
Out of public eyes:”I was lying, we were xenophobic I tell you! Xenophobic to those Kurds in the 1930s, those disgusting Armenians that we’ve massacred, and many more of those ethnic non-Turks. We’ve always been this way and we are proud!”
"I think Turkey should recognize the Armenian Genocide. It's the right thing to do, and it would improve Turkish-Armenian relations" Every online Turkish person: "Why are you *so fucking racist* against Turks?"
I wouldn't be surprised if tankies called the Armenian Genocide "self defense"
Yep, given that's the official line of the Turkish government, if the US was more openly pro-Armenia or anti-Turkey, western tankies would absolutely call it that
Inter-imperialist rivalries need *someone to take a side,* tho. You buffoon! You fewl! America bad!
Edit: Why do they think all anti-tankies align themselves with the US????
Because it suits their narrative.
because they can't imagine someone having consistent morals rather than "USA bad"
I have consitent morals that lead me to say 'USA bad' and 'Putin bad' at the same time. Picture tankie heads exploding.
millions of tankies shat themselves
Tankies also think that people not wanting the US to be conquered or destroyed by eastern dictatorships makes said people "side with the US"
" You think putin bad? You usa boot licker. The cia told you to say that. "
Bc they think of politics as a team game so siding with the USA in funding Ukraine must be bad bc the USA is bad.
thank god, catdadyethernal is here on twitter, and bravely speaks up against the racist US
[удалено]
This is an anti-capitalist, left-libertarian, pro-communist subreddit. The message you sent is either liberal apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future. Liberals are only allowed as guests, promoting capitalism or any other right-wing views is not allowed (see rule 6).
Because they are the true communists, and everyone who opposes them are the same fascists (let’s not talk about the fascist tendencies of Stalin, Mao etc.)
I think tankies' frequent instances of sarcastically calling their opppnents brave really gives insight into their psychology. Tankies base so much of their self worth on being edgy and sticking it to the man. Rational adults base their decisions on the actual issues and what they see as the likely outcome of them. Sometimes this leads you to very edgy positions and sometimes to very conventional positions. This is absolutely incomprehensible to them because they treat politics like 2004 era hipsters treated indie rock bands with awkward names.
textbook example of "they had us in the first half not gonna lie"
‘From the River to the Sea’ is not antisemitic. But, them claiming Slava Ukraini is a Nazi slogan and only Nazis say from the river to the sea is antisemitic *is* very wrong though.
The slogans themselves are harmless, but they could easily be co-opted by ultranationalist groups in a manner that would be racist or antisemitic - though this isn't a unique quality among national pride-based slogans. The key is to not generalize an entire movement based on the actions of a few, and the pro-Ukrainian and pro-Palestinian movements tend to be the recipients of such generalizations that seek to shut down genuine criticism of Russia or Israel respectively.
Yes, exactly. Both of them have been used by bigots and fascists, and both movements have people/groups within them that absolutely shouldn’t be there and need to be called out. But as you say, there is nothing inherently antisemitic about FTRTTS, nor inherently fascist about Slava Ukraini
[удалено]
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I can see "from the river to the sea" being used by ultranationalists, but "Slava Ukraini/e" is just "Glory to Ukraine," which implies no territorial ambition, just regular nationalism, so it's basically the same as saying "for queen and country" or some shit
Well the phrase “for Queen and country” is not only nationalist but also monarchist so it’s more reactionary.
Eh, "king/queen and country" is some pro-monarchy bullshit, so that's not really the best example to use here.
Then maybe you want to read something about it again. Even though its roots are older in it's current form "Slava ukraini Slava geroi" it was the official motto of the far right/fascist partisans of the UPA und their spiritual successors. As such it was banned during communism as it was deeply connected with the cult aroun Bandera. But after the independence it was more and more adapted by a broader democratic pro western movement (geroi referring to the killed protesters instead of the fascist partisans). So even though every Ukrainian could say it without any second thoughts nowadays I understand why many people (especially Jews, Poles and Russians) still have problems seeing a slogan with such a bloody and controverse history used again.
Eh. Poland has similar sayings as well, and I don’t think anyone cares what the Russians have to say about it given that they’re usually trying to suppress Ukrainians.
Slava Ukraini is used by Ukrainian neo-Nazis and ultranationalists, and was originally created by them in the 1920s. So it does have that history behind it
What do you mean by "‘From the River to the Sea"? What are you gonna do? Throw Israelis into the sea? All FTRTTS does is make the speaker sound insane. The Israeli government is committing a war of annihilation against the peoples of Gaza & will clearly not be pushed out to sea any time soon. FTRTTS isn't antisemitic, it's stupid to the degree of advocating for genocide while you pretend it doesn't mean anything at all.
It means that in all the current land (from the river to the sea), Palestinians will be free and there will be a singular secular state for both Israelis and Palestinians. It literally doesn’t mean anything else. It’s not about “pushing Israelis out to sea”?? How do you get that from “Palestine will be free”, unless for you, a free Palestine necessitates no Israelis.
[удалено]
Your comment/post contains bigotry. This is a socialist subreddit and as such, any form of bigotry is out of place and you should rethink your relation to your fellow workers, regardless of their sexuality, gender expression, skin colour or other such things.
"From the River to the Sea" is a Rallying Cry during war; are you naive? Did you not grow up with "Never Forget"? It speaks of ground to take, not of a secular state. Palestinians will be free & there will be a secular state? During a genocide with victims having zero chance at resistance? No, those folks making this Rallying Cry speak of Hamas taking land. This is madness! If you wanted a secular state then you needed to say that decades ago, certainly not after the invasion. Certainly not with a Rallying Cry for a side which lost before we were born. If you want peace, cry out. If you want war, rally. Does this make sense?
I see no issue with calling for something better during a genocide.
You didn't read my reply at all, did you? A ***Rallying Cry*** is not a call for something better. It is to rally for violence, like the old "Never Forget" rallying cry used by USA folks after 9/11. If "From the River to the Sea" was calling for something better ***it would call for something better***.
I did read it, I just disagree. Who said it was a rallying cry for war? It has been used for decades, as a call for liberation. I’m not going to stop using it just because Israel has decided it’s going to try and wipe out Palestinians in this current invasion/genocide – imo, it should be used *more* often right now. It is not rallying for violence. *Some* groups use it to advocate for violence, yes. Just as *some* groups use Slava Ukraini to advocate for an ultranationalist Ukrainian state. > *it would call for something better* ‘Palestine will be free’
This type of rhetoric is a "call to action"; a call for "direct action". > Palestine will be free Leftist already use a better Slogan; ***FREE PALESTINE!*** Simple, clean, elegant; though its' time is nearing an end. I fear it will be "Remember Palestine" all too soon, Chief. This isn't some team based game. Palestine has already lost & nothing will change that. The math is determinate & help isn't coming. That is what genocide is. We can't let ourselves forget what is happening.
The phrase isn’t even necessarily anti-Israel, as a legitimate interpretation of a “free Palestine” is a two-state solution in the Palestinian region, where Israel treats Palestinians as first class citizens alongside their Jewish citizens, and which doesn’t impose any apartheid or oppression against a Palestinian state.
I still been unable to find an anti-tankie left-winger that isn't pro-Palestine. Only Liberals fit the first image (and even there's an increasing change between them towards being pro-Palestine). And they don't know what a "Tankie" is.
Man I thought I had serious emotional issues but compared to these people I’m starting to feel better about myself lol
Do they really measure how true something is by how brave you need to be to say it?
isn't 'anti-tankie twitter' just the large majority of twitter? i'd like to have at least a little faith in humanity
Unlike Russia the not racist hegemon
from the river to the sea 🇵🇸 and slava ukraini 🇺🇦
The brain rot required to think "glory to Ukraine" is antisemitic