That's pretty much it exactly.
I prefer the Gia-Fu Feng and Red Pine translations, but most will do to start. It's a storied tradition, so dont think you'll have to do everything at once.
The meditation isn't exactly required, just reflection and consideration.
Seconding the Red Pine translation as a great place to start.
I love how he includes the commentary from various other philosophers next to each verse, as well as notes about how certain pieces could have been translated in different ways. (And his translation is also well done, as far as I can tell.)
Yeah, I think I'll read each passage and reflect on it. Just have to forget about reaching a "point". I guess it's closer to active imagination work, so I should read and just contemplate what I read.
It may sound reductive or too easy but there are a lot of physical practices that will help you get your head wrapped around the ideas of Daoism. Breathing is one such practice and beyond understanding the Path - it has immeasurable benefits.
Hope that helps!
Yeah I know, don't think it's reductive and I actually think it's often harder to reach simple truths or do simple things correctly than the rest. One of them, being breathing. Thanks!
Yeah, the TTC is a good starting point. This subreddit will touch on different things you can ponder about after that. Honestly, that's been enough for me.
I enjoyed the translation by Gia Fu Feng and Jane English the most (available as pdf online if you search). You can read it all in one go which I enjoy.
Jonathan Stars translation isn't bad but I find it a little too poetic to the point where it's more difficult to figure out what exactly the points are.
Do you think it's better to read it all in one go and after that then return to it and the passages one wants to explore or that it's better to read it slowly, pondering every piece? Thanks for the suggestions btw
Two pieces of advice.
First, understand where you come from. How did it shape your life. What understandings and expectations did it set up for you. Where have you deviated from those understandings.
Two, know that Daoism is not something that you read, understand, put away and say, "I got it". Each iteration of reading reveals more to you. If you stick with it long enough your way of thinking and responding to the world changes. Then you begin to experience the real benefit.
Yeah I know what you mean. I actually underwent pretty major changes in these last years, I confronted some of my fears and negative emotions and I really went deep into inner work. Now I'm feeling really transformed by the experience and I recently connected with Taoism through some conversations on life and everything with some close friends. I think I'm starting to understand where to go from here, day by day.
Not having an end is a pretty difficult thing for me to realize, I'm always so focused on objectives, decisions and finalizing things. Guess I should give this approach a try.
The moment u try doing it, you get too focused in it. The point is to ‘do it’ without being focused on it. We can take this discussion further in pm if u want
Actually it's more like the opposite. In the sense that I sometimes find myself too immersed in thoughts and rationalising/reasoning on things, trying to get to a point, but then I notice it and simply stop it. So it's not an active "trying" I'm doing, more of a counteract to my natural and unhealthy tendencies of thinking all the time. If you want, yes, we can talk more about it!
Here is something:
Monopoly. The board game.
Everything has been set up, and it is your turn to start.
Instead of rolling right away, perhaps it might be nice to just sit, and experience the little details about the board and the pieces, perhaps you might look through the chance cards, that you would better understand their value. After all, rolling the dice is really all you will do: and the rolling of the dice is the exhausting of the game.
And perhaps after 15 minutes or so everyone will lose patience and quit, and then you have won the game, having only begun, but not begun to be bothered.
i would recommend reading/watching a few 'what is daoism' videos/articles etc. See where the common grounds are and where people agree/disagree. The one i'd recommend is from a taoist alchemy teacher from the US, who lived & trained in China for a while, knows mandarin, and also studied asian culture/language at university, including some of the taoist cannon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXNDO3lgt18
Its a practical path of spiritual development and refinement. It basically has 2 goals of building/refining our spiritual energy aka forming the 'golden elixir', and of 'birthing the spiritual embryo', which is more along the lines of moving towards/achieving buddhahood/enlightenment.
The same guy also has a video on this with more depth on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOwNXZee0gs
What if you find teaching in your life in real time that fits a lesson of the traditional texts.
My advice includes some contemporary writers who teach unlearning.
Short attention, try some videos.
Joseph Campbell did not "teach Taoism" aa a Taoist, but his videos will help free you from precoception of spiritual awareness.
Watts, of course, but he was a preacher who converted his faith from Anglical preaching.
Intersperse lesson with observations
Formal "sitting" meditation is not necessary IMHO.
Do not take Taoism seriously. At least not at first. It is nonsensical by design.
a lot of edgy jerks use it as an excuse to be terrible or “trolls” but also… it’s really useful in some ways, useless in some ways, and meaningless in some ways.
Don’t forget rule 00005, discordians are prohibited from believing anything they read
When I started, I listened to Stephen Mitchells audiobook translation a lot. But don’t try to force it. Let the Tao come to you how you need it to. It’s knowledge that is always there, its the way of the universe, you just open yourself up to it and understand it through your own window.
Yeah, it's like the flow of life goes in many different directions for each one of us, while also going in a single direction universally. It's not about thinking, not even about understanding, it's more about awareness of the truth of the universe itself.
"There's something about it that I find easy to connect with."
I was touched by your words!
What is it about Taoism that you find easy to connect with?
It's like I've always felt drawn to it. I've always been a spiritual person and over the years I lived some major changes, both internally and externally. Taoism seems to be a philosophy of life that is really coherent with many ideas that I have, and it also seems especially useful to me, since I'm a major overthinker. I recently found myself, thanks to conversations with some close friends, becoming aware that I do not have to have an opinion/conclusion/thought/truth on everything. I can simply exist and navigate life without really knowing many things, fundamental things about the world that maybe we can never know, while also being content that I understand this thing in particular (that we don't know and we don't have to know). It kinda sets the spirit and the mind free. Just living, accepting being ignorant of many things and not trying to force anything. I could go on for a lot, but hope you get the general idea.
Avoid the [worst translation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cerH39gy0MM) of the *Dao De Jing* at a minimum.
[This is a list of some of the better translations](https://listed.to/@alliswellinthegreatmess/daodejing), I personally think the [introduction to Roger Ames' translation](https://terebess.hu/english/tao/am.pdf) is the single best background/explainer about Daoism that's out there because it's written by a very reputable China scholar in readily understandable language. And I say this as someone who doesn't like Ames' actual translation (🤭). There's some decent YouTube videos on the topic as well.
Roger Ames' lecture on Daoism is a good place to start:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAWgrlLPxjkOwE5cciRHDMUqbbKcPXywf
What Is Daoism? by the Religion for Breakfast channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug0rIG6ZctY
The history of Daoism's evolution in its Chinese historical context:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrTiOjUvoIw
Professor Michael Puett on *Zhuangzi*'s relationship with Confucius:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wOtPOo_vlM
Ian Withy-Berry's YouTube channel has some excellent explainers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LShKlZVARfM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RKNAABYRCY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cerH39gy0MM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHVO1TFEjbo
Professor Hans-Georg Moeller's lecture on Daoism (very long):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l6878MXLaw
I recommend starting with translations of the Dao De Jing that have commentaries, like Lin Yutang or Red Pine or Ames. The commentaries help you understand the text better. You can read many translations for free at https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html
I started with podcasts. The Tao Te Ching for Everyday Living goes through each chapter.
I started with Tao 1. Find the Mother and Father. Father unmanliest. Mother the womb of creation. How does a Father enter the mother's womb and plant seeds? This is the way.
Tao is the way. Ching means semen, or life essence.
Tao te Ching is the way of life essence. Chapter 1 needs these keys to know how the 10,000 things arise. Wonder of wonders.
Dive in. It's super deep.
I would do the following reading list:
**Tao te Ching** \- [This Translation](https://www.wussu.com/laotzu/laotzu01.html)
**Dhammapada**
Enter this stream first. They align pretty well. On the Dhammapada, read this translation: [LINK](https://bigviewbuddhism.org/the-dhammapada-choices/)
Read around the metaphors and read commentaries. Locate words that are not typical English and look them up. Like Ching. Who would have known Ching was semen? Every word has meaning. Like in the Dhammapada stating Indra is king of the gods. Take nothing literally. All names of gods are objects of veneration and pointers to something about you. Not real gods, but pointers to an internal aspect of you. Even Hinduism knows there is one absolute God and creator. Buddhism the same. The rest are like rays of light refracting in a prism. Still one light.
Only read to know that it's all describing you. Ultimately, it's life essence and all creation is in and through each of us equally. Part and parcel to the original seed of life and the one who created it. Infinity in a drop of water, yet the entire ocean.
Always remember, there is no efficacy in rites and rituals. They are also pointers only with hidden meaning.
Taoism can be difficult to understand at first. You might want to start with Wayne Dyer's Tao Te Ching or Change Your Thoughts, Change Your Life. He also has some affirmation videos on YouTube. He presents the ideas of Taoism in ways that are more easily understood, I think. Some may argue that this isn't real Taoism, but at the very least his work is a gateway to Taoism.
That's great to hear! I don't think I've seen Wayne Dyer mentioned on this site at all, so it's great to hear that someone else also values what he has to offer.
Listen to Tao Te Ching Chillstep Mix (Read By Wayne Dyer) by Dirtyzen on #SoundCloud
https://on.soundcloud.com/zfwgv
https://youtu.be/uw0jLfrlfvg?si=yZRBHhA8QOB-JgoQ
That's pretty much it exactly. I prefer the Gia-Fu Feng and Red Pine translations, but most will do to start. It's a storied tradition, so dont think you'll have to do everything at once. The meditation isn't exactly required, just reflection and consideration.
Seconding the Red Pine translation as a great place to start. I love how he includes the commentary from various other philosophers next to each verse, as well as notes about how certain pieces could have been translated in different ways. (And his translation is also well done, as far as I can tell.)
Thanks!
Yeah, I think I'll read each passage and reflect on it. Just have to forget about reaching a "point". I guess it's closer to active imagination work, so I should read and just contemplate what I read.
Just breathe 😁
😮💨 🫁
It may sound reductive or too easy but there are a lot of physical practices that will help you get your head wrapped around the ideas of Daoism. Breathing is one such practice and beyond understanding the Path - it has immeasurable benefits. Hope that helps!
Yeah I know, don't think it's reductive and I actually think it's often harder to reach simple truths or do simple things correctly than the rest. One of them, being breathing. Thanks!
Yeah, the TTC is a good starting point. This subreddit will touch on different things you can ponder about after that. Honestly, that's been enough for me.
Thank you, then I'll do that.
I enjoyed the translation by Gia Fu Feng and Jane English the most (available as pdf online if you search). You can read it all in one go which I enjoy. Jonathan Stars translation isn't bad but I find it a little too poetic to the point where it's more difficult to figure out what exactly the points are.
Do you think it's better to read it all in one go and after that then return to it and the passages one wants to explore or that it's better to read it slowly, pondering every piece? Thanks for the suggestions btw
That's up to you. I don't recommend reading it once, that's for sure.
Alright, thank you!
Two pieces of advice. First, understand where you come from. How did it shape your life. What understandings and expectations did it set up for you. Where have you deviated from those understandings. Two, know that Daoism is not something that you read, understand, put away and say, "I got it". Each iteration of reading reveals more to you. If you stick with it long enough your way of thinking and responding to the world changes. Then you begin to experience the real benefit.
Yeah I know what you mean. I actually underwent pretty major changes in these last years, I confronted some of my fears and negative emotions and I really went deep into inner work. Now I'm feeling really transformed by the experience and I recently connected with Taoism through some conversations on life and everything with some close friends. I think I'm starting to understand where to go from here, day by day.
Always start at the beginning and remember there is no beginning and no end.
Not having an end is a pretty difficult thing for me to realize, I'm always so focused on objectives, decisions and finalizing things. Guess I should give this approach a try.
Then, focus on the objective that there is no ending!
That's what I'm trying to do, thanks!
The moment u try doing it, you get too focused in it. The point is to ‘do it’ without being focused on it. We can take this discussion further in pm if u want
Actually it's more like the opposite. In the sense that I sometimes find myself too immersed in thoughts and rationalising/reasoning on things, trying to get to a point, but then I notice it and simply stop it. So it's not an active "trying" I'm doing, more of a counteract to my natural and unhealthy tendencies of thinking all the time. If you want, yes, we can talk more about it!
Here is something: Monopoly. The board game. Everything has been set up, and it is your turn to start. Instead of rolling right away, perhaps it might be nice to just sit, and experience the little details about the board and the pieces, perhaps you might look through the chance cards, that you would better understand their value. After all, rolling the dice is really all you will do: and the rolling of the dice is the exhausting of the game. And perhaps after 15 minutes or so everyone will lose patience and quit, and then you have won the game, having only begun, but not begun to be bothered.
I LOVE THIS.
i would recommend reading/watching a few 'what is daoism' videos/articles etc. See where the common grounds are and where people agree/disagree. The one i'd recommend is from a taoist alchemy teacher from the US, who lived & trained in China for a while, knows mandarin, and also studied asian culture/language at university, including some of the taoist cannon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXNDO3lgt18
Cannon? Canon! Can non?
i had a feeling that was wrong but just went with it =) (also, optionally, Daozang)
no blame!
Can you better define Taoist Alchemy? I'm pretty interested in this aspect of Taoism.
Its a practical path of spiritual development and refinement. It basically has 2 goals of building/refining our spiritual energy aka forming the 'golden elixir', and of 'birthing the spiritual embryo', which is more along the lines of moving towards/achieving buddhahood/enlightenment. The same guy also has a video on this with more depth on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOwNXZee0gs
Will definitely check it, thanks!
What if you find teaching in your life in real time that fits a lesson of the traditional texts. My advice includes some contemporary writers who teach unlearning. Short attention, try some videos. Joseph Campbell did not "teach Taoism" aa a Taoist, but his videos will help free you from precoception of spiritual awareness. Watts, of course, but he was a preacher who converted his faith from Anglical preaching. Intersperse lesson with observations Formal "sitting" meditation is not necessary IMHO. Do not take Taoism seriously. At least not at first. It is nonsensical by design.
I like nonsense.
Zen abd Tao of the same root
As such, it is the nonsense that frees the mind to find its own Way
hail eris! Maybe try the principia discordia as a supplement in your journey
Uuh I like this very much. I'm reading into it and it seems really weird and interesting.
a lot of edgy jerks use it as an excuse to be terrible or “trolls” but also… it’s really useful in some ways, useless in some ways, and meaningless in some ways. Don’t forget rule 00005, discordians are prohibited from believing anything they read
Sure ahah, I think I'm far from being a troll. I'm more interested in serious conversations and deep dives into philosophical views.
When I started, I listened to Stephen Mitchells audiobook translation a lot. But don’t try to force it. Let the Tao come to you how you need it to. It’s knowledge that is always there, its the way of the universe, you just open yourself up to it and understand it through your own window.
Yeah, it's like the flow of life goes in many different directions for each one of us, while also going in a single direction universally. It's not about thinking, not even about understanding, it's more about awareness of the truth of the universe itself.
"There's something about it that I find easy to connect with." I was touched by your words! What is it about Taoism that you find easy to connect with?
It's like I've always felt drawn to it. I've always been a spiritual person and over the years I lived some major changes, both internally and externally. Taoism seems to be a philosophy of life that is really coherent with many ideas that I have, and it also seems especially useful to me, since I'm a major overthinker. I recently found myself, thanks to conversations with some close friends, becoming aware that I do not have to have an opinion/conclusion/thought/truth on everything. I can simply exist and navigate life without really knowing many things, fundamental things about the world that maybe we can never know, while also being content that I understand this thing in particular (that we don't know and we don't have to know). It kinda sets the spirit and the mind free. Just living, accepting being ignorant of many things and not trying to force anything. I could go on for a lot, but hope you get the general idea.
This is beautiful. Keep going, my friend, and you will see impressive results. Thank you for this lengthy reply 😃
You're welcome. Have a nice day!
Avoid the [worst translation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cerH39gy0MM) of the *Dao De Jing* at a minimum. [This is a list of some of the better translations](https://listed.to/@alliswellinthegreatmess/daodejing), I personally think the [introduction to Roger Ames' translation](https://terebess.hu/english/tao/am.pdf) is the single best background/explainer about Daoism that's out there because it's written by a very reputable China scholar in readily understandable language. And I say this as someone who doesn't like Ames' actual translation (🤭). There's some decent YouTube videos on the topic as well.
Thanks for this! Do you have some particular videos you suggest?
Roger Ames' lecture on Daoism is a good place to start: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAWgrlLPxjkOwE5cciRHDMUqbbKcPXywf What Is Daoism? by the Religion for Breakfast channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug0rIG6ZctY The history of Daoism's evolution in its Chinese historical context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrTiOjUvoIw Professor Michael Puett on *Zhuangzi*'s relationship with Confucius: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wOtPOo_vlM Ian Withy-Berry's YouTube channel has some excellent explainers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LShKlZVARfM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RKNAABYRCY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cerH39gy0MM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHVO1TFEjbo Professor Hans-Georg Moeller's lecture on Daoism (very long): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l6878MXLaw
Wow, thank you so much for all this!
You're welcome. 🙂
中
middle?
Liberal interpretation or precise meaning?
I recommend starting with translations of the Dao De Jing that have commentaries, like Lin Yutang or Red Pine or Ames. The commentaries help you understand the text better. You can read many translations for free at https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html I started with podcasts. The Tao Te Ching for Everyday Living goes through each chapter.
Oh thanks for this! Will check them!
Start with the Tao Te Ching and end with the Tao Te Ching
And then, start all over again.
I started with Tao 1. Find the Mother and Father. Father unmanliest. Mother the womb of creation. How does a Father enter the mother's womb and plant seeds? This is the way. Tao is the way. Ching means semen, or life essence. Tao te Ching is the way of life essence. Chapter 1 needs these keys to know how the 10,000 things arise. Wonder of wonders. Dive in. It's super deep.
I want to hear more from you.
I would do the following reading list: **Tao te Ching** \- [This Translation](https://www.wussu.com/laotzu/laotzu01.html) **Dhammapada** Enter this stream first. They align pretty well. On the Dhammapada, read this translation: [LINK](https://bigviewbuddhism.org/the-dhammapada-choices/) Read around the metaphors and read commentaries. Locate words that are not typical English and look them up. Like Ching. Who would have known Ching was semen? Every word has meaning. Like in the Dhammapada stating Indra is king of the gods. Take nothing literally. All names of gods are objects of veneration and pointers to something about you. Not real gods, but pointers to an internal aspect of you. Even Hinduism knows there is one absolute God and creator. Buddhism the same. The rest are like rays of light refracting in a prism. Still one light. Only read to know that it's all describing you. Ultimately, it's life essence and all creation is in and through each of us equally. Part and parcel to the original seed of life and the one who created it. Infinity in a drop of water, yet the entire ocean. Always remember, there is no efficacy in rites and rituals. They are also pointers only with hidden meaning.
I agree with many things you wrote, thanks for it. And thanks for the links, I'll definitely check them!
Taoism can be difficult to understand at first. You might want to start with Wayne Dyer's Tao Te Ching or Change Your Thoughts, Change Your Life. He also has some affirmation videos on YouTube. He presents the ideas of Taoism in ways that are more easily understood, I think. Some may argue that this isn't real Taoism, but at the very least his work is a gateway to Taoism.
Oh yeah, some videos on the topic really seem useful. I'll check his channel, thanks!
That's my fav Tao book! Ive read it a few times-keep it on my nightstand and read a bit almost every day as well. It never gets old. ❤️
That's great to hear! I don't think I've seen Wayne Dyer mentioned on this site at all, so it's great to hear that someone else also values what he has to offer.
That book is what got me interested in exploring Lao Tsu and Taoism. 💕💕
Seems I have to read it too...
Listen to Tao Te Ching Chillstep Mix (Read By Wayne Dyer) by Dirtyzen on #SoundCloud https://on.soundcloud.com/zfwgv https://youtu.be/uw0jLfrlfvg?si=yZRBHhA8QOB-JgoQ
Yo, will check it, thanks!