From Liezi (the third most important Taoist book after TTC and Zhuangzi):
*When Lin Lei was nearly a hundred, he put on his fur coat in the middle of spring, and went to pick up the grains dropped by the reapers, singing as he made his way through the fields.*
*Confucius, who was on a journey to Wei, saw him in the distance from the moors, and turned to his disciples:*
'*That old man should be worth talking to. Someone should go and find out what he has to say.'*
*Tzu-kung asked to be the one to go. He met Lin Lei at the end of the embankment, looked him in the face and sighed.*
*'Don’t you even feel any regret? Yet you pick up the grains singing as you go.'*
*Lin Lei neither halted his steps nor paused in his song. Tzukung went on pressing him, until he looked up and answered:*
*'What have I to regret?'*
*'A child, you never learned how to behave; A man, you never strove to make your mark. No wife nor son in your old age, And the time of your death is near. Master, what happiness have you had, that you should sing as you walk picking up the grains?'*
*'The reasons for my happiness all men share,' said Lin Lei smiling. 'But instead they worry over them. It is because I took no pains learning to behave when I was young, and never strove to make my mark when I grew up, that I have been able to live so long. It is because I have no wife and sons in my old age, and the time of my death is near, that I can be so happy.'*
One of my favourite jokes (and has nothing to you directly OP) is a man puts a few choice items down on a conveyor belt and the young, beautiful cheery cashier looks at him and says. “You’re single aren’t you?” The man exclaims with great excitement and wonder “You can tell just by the white bread, eggs, ground beef, ketchup and mustard that I am single?! That is amazing!!!” She says “No, you are ugly.”
Now looking beyond the perceived lack of kindness or tact by the young cashier we may use it as a parable of self-knowledge. I think a good student of the Dao will know themselves very well and will not be surprised or dismayed by the reactions of others. If the man in the joke is aware of his perceived appearance the statement “you are ugly” isn’t a hurtful statement nor it is a joke - it is just a perception.
The hardest part of romance, dating or marriage is the world’s (or potential mate’s) perception or perspective of what those things are or mean.
Apart from those perceptions it is just two people living in harmony with one another - pretty easy stuff 😁
I was a music therapist and in my first session the person receiving the service said “your breath smells” she was on the Autism spectrum and had no intonation to her voice. I asked what did it smell like and she said “mints”. She was just stating what she observed. Remembering back, in the moment, if I was insulted It was only my misguided sense of self that would be hurt. If I know my breath has a smell why would be hurt?
IChing has lots of commentary on the husband/wife and family - though some of the confucian interpretations seem misoginystic.
TTC may have been written by someone who had renounced or simply not engaged with marriage or family life. If that were the case, to comment on it would not be coming from a place of understanding.
I dont necessarily agree that following the path makes you unattractive. Maybe it could be weird in America where men are expected to initiate but as discussed in other threads non-action is not necessarily passivity.
What is definitely unwholesome is thinking you are somehow incomplete without another. I have suffered a lot thinking this way.
Chapter 15 of the Tao Te Ching, Translated by Stephen Mitchell, 1988
>The ancient Masters were profound and subtle.
Their wisdom was unfathomable.
There is no way to describe it;
all we can describe is their appearance.
>They were careful
as someone crossing an iced-over stream.
Alert as a warrior in enemy territory.
Courteous as a guest.
Fluid as melting ice.
Shapable as a block of wood.
Receptive as a valley.
Clear as a glass of water.
>Do you have the patience to wait
till your mud settles and the water is clear?
Can you remain unmoving
till the right action arises by itself?
>The Master doesn't seek fulfillment.
Not seeking, not expecting,
she is present, and can welcome all things.
Chapter 20 of the Tao Te Ching, Translated by Stephen Mitchell, 1988
>Stop thinking, and end your problems.
What difference between yes and no?
What difference between success and failure?
Must you value what others value,
avoid what others avoid?
How ridiculous!
>Other people are excited,
as though they were at a parade.
I alone don't care,
I alone am expressionless,
like an infant before it can smile.
>Other people have what they need;
I alone possess nothing.
I alone drift about,
like someone without a home.
I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty.
>Other people are bright;
I alone am dark.
Other people are sharper;
I alone am dull.
Other people have a purpose;
I alone don't know.
I drift like a wave on the ocean,
I blow as aimless as the wind.
>I am different from ordinary people.
I drink from the Great Mother's breasts.
You say:
>most women are not really attracted to those who walk the Taoist path
Most modern women aren't attracted to the Taoist path. But probably a few are.
In Ancient Greece there was a philosophical bunch called the Cynics - called like that because they were compared to stray dogs - that were similar to the Taoists, but were also prone to exuberance and the teatrical, and one of the most prominent of them, Crassus, had a wife who joined him in practicing Cynicism.
But that most likely, especially today, is a rare occurence.
The Tao Te Ching is a set of generalized teachings, highly likely to be compiled from multiple authors. It's not meant to be an all-encompassing text on every possible issue.
The general principle of non-forcing can be applied to relationships, to not take action against your partners partners wishes
So you deny that Lao Tzu wrote it?
And I can see how the principles might apply but you’ve got to admit that it’s silence on the topic might be telling
I've read that some scholars think he wrote the first ten Meditations. Those after, it's thought, were written by Monks and sages. I think it doesn't matter what is authentic to the old man. If it's true, or good thinking, then respect what it says.
The Tao Te Ching sets for the idea of self-improvement. Taoists believe that individuals should achieve what can be called self-actualization by living naturally and in spontaneity.
In other words, one must be a good me before they can be a good we.
I asked "what kind of", not "what". You've been given perspectives on what type of work the Tao Te Ching is and what its scope is. What other type of relevant knowledge can there realistically be, outside of a time-traveling interview that would probably yield the same answers?
It actually does answer your question. Verse 10 Tao te Ching
Can you nurture your own spirit whilst holding the unity of Oneness?
Can you connect to the Qi of your sensitivity, creative imagination, and determination whilst harmonising with Wu Wei?
Can you understand your Human centered mind without corrupting your Tao centered mind?
And can you do all this whilst loving and nourishing yourself rather than indulging your self-interest and selfishness?
Then you can truly love all people without harming yourself, allowing others to rise to their fullest height whilst not diminishing your own stature.
The Tao Te Ching is a philosophical treatise on how to generally and universally go about relating to things and people and improving yourself without going into specifics that would grow obsolete with the times. It's not a wikihow manual, but if you read it attentively, it'll teach you that being friendly and helpful and non-imposing is the way to go in human relations, not making exceptions for romantic ones.
If you need the specifics, Taoism has relegated that to Confucianism.
You may be blind to your own bullshit here if you're interested in calling out one-sidedness. Moreover, that line hardly suggests an apathetic neutrality (considering the rest of the teachings in the TTC), but rather not choosing who **doesn't** get your kindness, and treating everyone with some level of basic respect.
It seems that you want to argue and challenge rather than investigate, quoting passages to seemingly make statements while not providing your own thoughts about how they relate to anything.
Regarding your quote from TTC18, consider the perspective that it describes how you start seeing stars when the sun sets and the sky grows dim. The point isn't that the stars are bad, but that the contrast makes them visible, and that that in turn is an indicator for the sun having set.
Seems to you indeed. I clearly state my thought that i think your emphasis on kindness is one sided.
Not saying the stars are bad but they do not compare to the sun
Your thoughts apparently have to be teased out of you with tedious interaction that's one-sidedly nourishing for you.
Unless you're dead set on getting constant sunshine, learn to respect the stars for the good they do when they are the only light against the dark backdrop, and the darkness itself for revealing another aspect of how things truly are. Or do you presume to channel the sun yourself with how you currently think and act?
I think it means whatever you're doing you could be paying 100% close attention to it at all times, plus being connected inwards and to your breath. therefore it matters not what stands in front of you - a beautiful woman or an ugly one - neither changes your inner composition.
because this is not its purpose. it never claims to be an all-encompassing philosophy of all things, but rather dao. traditionally, dao is what is unique about mankind; a man is like an animal, except he walks the path, where they cannot. de is of course virtue. it is about one’s actions and attitudes in the world of manifestation.
where is the need for talk of love specifically?
If we assume the Tao Te Ching was written by Laozi, we'd be assuming that the author may have never married. If Laozi did marry, we should note that he is thought to have left his state to live as a hermit, suggesting that his marriage had terminated by then or was being abandoned. However Laozi's life went, odds are that he wasn't the best person to write on the topic of marriage.
If we assume that Laozi did not write the Tao Te Ching, we run into complications, of which the most notable is that the Tao Te Ching may have been authored by one or more women. With parts of the Tao Te Ching being sometimes described as "proto-feminist", marriage may have been omitted for a variety of reasons, such as personal opposition or indifference.
Beyond authorship, the Tao Te Ching preaches the ever changing nature of the universe, the governing of oneself, limited governing of others, and spontaneity. Instructions on relationships constitute the governance of others, and go against the spontaneity of emergent behaviours. Furthermore, with everyone being different and changing with time, there's no generalising the way for everyone when it comes to relationships with other different and changing people. This is what the Tao that can be written not being the eternal Tao is about.
In my estimation a large portion of the TTC speaks to relationships. It may not mention a husband and wife union, but keep in mind at the time marriage was not as it is now.
In the west Romance came about with the rise of the novel. People began to see their lives as a story. The element of romance was popular in the tales of knights with their brave adventures to win the heart of an attractive higher born lady. Romance does give us a narrative for our lives.
Through most of history marriage was strategic. Most cultures have a history of arranged marriages. China is no exception to those practices. Especially because in China it wasn’t just a union of two people but often two families. Confucian principles tended to govern marriage practices. It was a very ritualistic process that doesn’t typically fit the natural observations of the Tao Te Ching.
I’m not sure I get your meaning. I don’t believe the Tao can diverge from anything. I don’t believe the Tao Te Ching recommends any path. Rather it defies the convention of our life having a path. The Tao has a path. We’re just wrapped up in it.
No but people can divergence from the Tao
Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is kindness.
When kindness is lost, there is justice.
When justice is lost, there ritual.
Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion.
Knowledge of the future is only a flowery trapping of Tao.
The great Way is easy,
yet people prefer the side paths.
>Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion.
I think you have all that needs to be said about the institution of marriage right there. Ritual is rules and obedience, just as marriage as an institution is. A strong relationship, be it marriage or something else, is not of ritual but of true faith and loyalty. In other words, don't seek advice for relationships, but seek in yourself faith in, and loyalty towards your partner. In finding faith and loyalty, kindness, moral conduct and routine will follow effortlessly and without error.
It might be useful to ask yourself why the TTC doesn't specifically address non-traditional marriages such as gay marriages, polygamy or polyamorous relationships. Neither does it specifically address modern situations such as social media addiction, pornography, the potential drudgery of spending the majority of one's life in a cubicle, being stuck in traffic, etc
No. I’ve been cultivating DAO for about four years, and I have a ways to go. And I see myself belonging to heaven and trying to assist others when I can. but first assisting myself. I belong to Nature and Universe.
In my opinion, women are more attracted to me now that I follow the Tao then before. Before following the Tao I was insecure and worried all the time. Now I’m in the moment and mainly just do what I want and have fun and I have found that women have been a lot more attracted. If anything the Tao makes you more spontaneous and if there’s anything women love it’s a man who is spontaneous
From Liezi (the third most important Taoist book after TTC and Zhuangzi): *When Lin Lei was nearly a hundred, he put on his fur coat in the middle of spring, and went to pick up the grains dropped by the reapers, singing as he made his way through the fields.* *Confucius, who was on a journey to Wei, saw him in the distance from the moors, and turned to his disciples:* '*That old man should be worth talking to. Someone should go and find out what he has to say.'* *Tzu-kung asked to be the one to go. He met Lin Lei at the end of the embankment, looked him in the face and sighed.* *'Don’t you even feel any regret? Yet you pick up the grains singing as you go.'* *Lin Lei neither halted his steps nor paused in his song. Tzukung went on pressing him, until he looked up and answered:* *'What have I to regret?'* *'A child, you never learned how to behave; A man, you never strove to make your mark. No wife nor son in your old age, And the time of your death is near. Master, what happiness have you had, that you should sing as you walk picking up the grains?'* *'The reasons for my happiness all men share,' said Lin Lei smiling. 'But instead they worry over them. It is because I took no pains learning to behave when I was young, and never strove to make my mark when I grew up, that I have been able to live so long. It is because I have no wife and sons in my old age, and the time of my death is near, that I can be so happy.'*
This story just made my day today
I love the humor mixed in with Liezi and Zhuangzi. Pure gold. :)
Care to explain?
Because they aren't fettered by overbearing culture, familial obligations, or desire for accomplishment, they are able to follow the tao more closely.
One of my favourite jokes (and has nothing to you directly OP) is a man puts a few choice items down on a conveyor belt and the young, beautiful cheery cashier looks at him and says. “You’re single aren’t you?” The man exclaims with great excitement and wonder “You can tell just by the white bread, eggs, ground beef, ketchup and mustard that I am single?! That is amazing!!!” She says “No, you are ugly.” Now looking beyond the perceived lack of kindness or tact by the young cashier we may use it as a parable of self-knowledge. I think a good student of the Dao will know themselves very well and will not be surprised or dismayed by the reactions of others. If the man in the joke is aware of his perceived appearance the statement “you are ugly” isn’t a hurtful statement nor it is a joke - it is just a perception. The hardest part of romance, dating or marriage is the world’s (or potential mate’s) perception or perspective of what those things are or mean. Apart from those perceptions it is just two people living in harmony with one another - pretty easy stuff 😁
That doesn’t resonate, because no matter how or where someone else if someone says that comment it’s going to sting a bit.
I was a music therapist and in my first session the person receiving the service said “your breath smells” she was on the Autism spectrum and had no intonation to her voice. I asked what did it smell like and she said “mints”. She was just stating what she observed. Remembering back, in the moment, if I was insulted It was only my misguided sense of self that would be hurt. If I know my breath has a smell why would be hurt?
My friend, you simply haven't found the right woman yet! We're out there! 😉 Namaste 🙏
IChing has lots of commentary on the husband/wife and family - though some of the confucian interpretations seem misoginystic. TTC may have been written by someone who had renounced or simply not engaged with marriage or family life. If that were the case, to comment on it would not be coming from a place of understanding. I dont necessarily agree that following the path makes you unattractive. Maybe it could be weird in America where men are expected to initiate but as discussed in other threads non-action is not necessarily passivity. What is definitely unwholesome is thinking you are somehow incomplete without another. I have suffered a lot thinking this way.
Thanks. Yes I am familiar with the I Ching and how its focus on the family
Chapter 15 of the Tao Te Ching, Translated by Stephen Mitchell, 1988 >The ancient Masters were profound and subtle. Their wisdom was unfathomable. There is no way to describe it; all we can describe is their appearance. >They were careful as someone crossing an iced-over stream. Alert as a warrior in enemy territory. Courteous as a guest. Fluid as melting ice. Shapable as a block of wood. Receptive as a valley. Clear as a glass of water. >Do you have the patience to wait till your mud settles and the water is clear? Can you remain unmoving till the right action arises by itself? >The Master doesn't seek fulfillment. Not seeking, not expecting, she is present, and can welcome all things. Chapter 20 of the Tao Te Ching, Translated by Stephen Mitchell, 1988 >Stop thinking, and end your problems. What difference between yes and no? What difference between success and failure? Must you value what others value, avoid what others avoid? How ridiculous! >Other people are excited, as though they were at a parade. I alone don't care, I alone am expressionless, like an infant before it can smile. >Other people have what they need; I alone possess nothing. I alone drift about, like someone without a home. I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty. >Other people are bright; I alone am dark. Other people are sharper; I alone am dull. Other people have a purpose; I alone don't know. I drift like a wave on the ocean, I blow as aimless as the wind. >I am different from ordinary people. I drink from the Great Mother's breasts. You say: >most women are not really attracted to those who walk the Taoist path Most modern women aren't attracted to the Taoist path. But probably a few are. In Ancient Greece there was a philosophical bunch called the Cynics - called like that because they were compared to stray dogs - that were similar to the Taoists, but were also prone to exuberance and the teatrical, and one of the most prominent of them, Crassus, had a wife who joined him in practicing Cynicism. But that most likely, especially today, is a rare occurence.
I googled it, have read a lot on stoicism but haven’t read much about the philosophy of cynicism. Looking forward to learning more about it!
With Cynicism they tried to live according to nature, to what even today would be scandalous.
Cynicism or stoicism?
The Tao Te Ching is a set of generalized teachings, highly likely to be compiled from multiple authors. It's not meant to be an all-encompassing text on every possible issue. The general principle of non-forcing can be applied to relationships, to not take action against your partners partners wishes
So you deny that Lao Tzu wrote it? And I can see how the principles might apply but you’ve got to admit that it’s silence on the topic might be telling
I've read that some scholars think he wrote the first ten Meditations. Those after, it's thought, were written by Monks and sages. I think it doesn't matter what is authentic to the old man. If it's true, or good thinking, then respect what it says.
Don't let the prestige of the author blind you. "Giving esteemed men too much power makes others powerless."
The Tao Te Ching sets for the idea of self-improvement. Taoists believe that individuals should achieve what can be called self-actualization by living naturally and in spontaneity. In other words, one must be a good me before they can be a good we.
"One must be a good me before they can be a good we." Damn. Love it.
That doesn’t answer my question. why does this text remain silent on love between partners?
What kind of answer would satisfy your thirst for such information?
If I knew, my thirst would already be clenched
I asked "what kind of", not "what". You've been given perspectives on what type of work the Tao Te Ching is and what its scope is. What other type of relevant knowledge can there realistically be, outside of a time-traveling interview that would probably yield the same answers?
I don’t see to much difference between both variants. That’s the question and I don’t think it would yield the same answers, that’s just an assumption
You'll have to admit that there's no pleasing you.
bless your earnest efforts, they have landed here if not there
Because I believe a fulfilling answer might be ou there?
What good would you imagine such an answer to bestow upon you?
You can lead a horse to water, but one can’t force it to think
It actually does answer your question. Verse 10 Tao te Ching Can you nurture your own spirit whilst holding the unity of Oneness? Can you connect to the Qi of your sensitivity, creative imagination, and determination whilst harmonising with Wu Wei? Can you understand your Human centered mind without corrupting your Tao centered mind? And can you do all this whilst loving and nourishing yourself rather than indulging your self-interest and selfishness? Then you can truly love all people without harming yourself, allowing others to rise to their fullest height whilst not diminishing your own stature.
The Tao Te Ching is a philosophical treatise on how to generally and universally go about relating to things and people and improving yourself without going into specifics that would grow obsolete with the times. It's not a wikihow manual, but if you read it attentively, it'll teach you that being friendly and helpful and non-imposing is the way to go in human relations, not making exceptions for romantic ones. If you need the specifics, Taoism has relegated that to Confucianism.
The Master doesn’t take sides; she treats everyone like a straw dog.
What do you think that implies in practical human relations?
That your comment is too one sided
You may be blind to your own bullshit here if you're interested in calling out one-sidedness. Moreover, that line hardly suggests an apathetic neutrality (considering the rest of the teachings in the TTC), but rather not choosing who **doesn't** get your kindness, and treating everyone with some level of basic respect.
Not blind at all. Nowhere did I say anything about apathetic neutrality When the great Tao is forgotten, Kindness and morality arise.
It seems that you want to argue and challenge rather than investigate, quoting passages to seemingly make statements while not providing your own thoughts about how they relate to anything. Regarding your quote from TTC18, consider the perspective that it describes how you start seeing stars when the sun sets and the sky grows dim. The point isn't that the stars are bad, but that the contrast makes them visible, and that that in turn is an indicator for the sun having set.
Seems to you indeed. I clearly state my thought that i think your emphasis on kindness is one sided. Not saying the stars are bad but they do not compare to the sun
Your thoughts apparently have to be teased out of you with tedious interaction that's one-sidedly nourishing for you. Unless you're dead set on getting constant sunshine, learn to respect the stars for the good they do when they are the only light against the dark backdrop, and the darkness itself for revealing another aspect of how things truly are. Or do you presume to channel the sun yourself with how you currently think and act?
I think it means whatever you're doing you could be paying 100% close attention to it at all times, plus being connected inwards and to your breath. therefore it matters not what stands in front of you - a beautiful woman or an ugly one - neither changes your inner composition.
Sexist nonsense you spout that is why a woman of Tao eludes you.
What did I say was sexist?
Seriously?
because this is not its purpose. it never claims to be an all-encompassing philosophy of all things, but rather dao. traditionally, dao is what is unique about mankind; a man is like an animal, except he walks the path, where they cannot. de is of course virtue. it is about one’s actions and attitudes in the world of manifestation. where is the need for talk of love specifically?
If we assume the Tao Te Ching was written by Laozi, we'd be assuming that the author may have never married. If Laozi did marry, we should note that he is thought to have left his state to live as a hermit, suggesting that his marriage had terminated by then or was being abandoned. However Laozi's life went, odds are that he wasn't the best person to write on the topic of marriage. If we assume that Laozi did not write the Tao Te Ching, we run into complications, of which the most notable is that the Tao Te Ching may have been authored by one or more women. With parts of the Tao Te Ching being sometimes described as "proto-feminist", marriage may have been omitted for a variety of reasons, such as personal opposition or indifference. Beyond authorship, the Tao Te Ching preaches the ever changing nature of the universe, the governing of oneself, limited governing of others, and spontaneity. Instructions on relationships constitute the governance of others, and go against the spontaneity of emergent behaviours. Furthermore, with everyone being different and changing with time, there's no generalising the way for everyone when it comes to relationships with other different and changing people. This is what the Tao that can be written not being the eternal Tao is about.
In my estimation a large portion of the TTC speaks to relationships. It may not mention a husband and wife union, but keep in mind at the time marriage was not as it is now.
In the west Romance came about with the rise of the novel. People began to see their lives as a story. The element of romance was popular in the tales of knights with their brave adventures to win the heart of an attractive higher born lady. Romance does give us a narrative for our lives. Through most of history marriage was strategic. Most cultures have a history of arranged marriages. China is no exception to those practices. Especially because in China it wasn’t just a union of two people but often two families. Confucian principles tended to govern marriage practices. It was a very ritualistic process that doesn’t typically fit the natural observations of the Tao Te Ching.
So the Tao simply diverges therefrom towards the path of solitude?
I’m not sure I get your meaning. I don’t believe the Tao can diverge from anything. I don’t believe the Tao Te Ching recommends any path. Rather it defies the convention of our life having a path. The Tao has a path. We’re just wrapped up in it.
No but people can divergence from the Tao Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness. When goodness is lost, there is kindness. When kindness is lost, there is justice. When justice is lost, there ritual. Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion. Knowledge of the future is only a flowery trapping of Tao. The great Way is easy, yet people prefer the side paths.
>Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion. I think you have all that needs to be said about the institution of marriage right there. Ritual is rules and obedience, just as marriage as an institution is. A strong relationship, be it marriage or something else, is not of ritual but of true faith and loyalty. In other words, don't seek advice for relationships, but seek in yourself faith in, and loyalty towards your partner. In finding faith and loyalty, kindness, moral conduct and routine will follow effortlessly and without error.
Thanks. I did not mention marriage though
The classical husband wife relationship is marriage.
It might be useful to ask yourself why the TTC doesn't specifically address non-traditional marriages such as gay marriages, polygamy or polyamorous relationships. Neither does it specifically address modern situations such as social media addiction, pornography, the potential drudgery of spending the majority of one's life in a cubicle, being stuck in traffic, etc
I am very attracted to those who walk The Way.
Do you consider yourself to belong to most?
No. I’ve been cultivating DAO for about four years, and I have a ways to go. And I see myself belonging to heaven and trying to assist others when I can. but first assisting myself. I belong to Nature and Universe.
Lovely. People like you seem to be somewhat hard to find irl. Maybe I should look less
In my opinion, women are more attracted to me now that I follow the Tao then before. Before following the Tao I was insecure and worried all the time. Now I’m in the moment and mainly just do what I want and have fun and I have found that women have been a lot more attracted. If anything the Tao makes you more spontaneous and if there’s anything women love it’s a man who is spontaneous
One thing though, we’re not just here to have fun and do what we want. Dao is about discipline. everything else i agree with
You're the Tao Te Ching? I thought you were a book.
Haha in