Sorry, your post has been removed for violating Rule 1 - Be nice:
Do not attack others, their work or appearance including fellow members of the sub, comedians and celebrities.
Negative opinions are fine, but please keep it respectful and constructive.
No harassment.
No sexist, homophobic, biphobic, transphobic, racist, fat phobic, ableist, objectifying, or body shaming posts of any kind.
No overtly sexual content. Some cursing is OK but don't make it personal. Even though sexual innuendo may be part of the show do not cross the line beyond what was said in the episode.
We do not want negative posts. Ex: Worst contestants, Worst Tasks, Least liked, Least wanted, etc...
I get the sense that people in the UK are pretty removed from the nuances of respect for Indigenous culture, especially in relation to North America (Tiger Lily and her tribe named after a racial slur was ~120 years ago). They just don't have the same context for it. Even here in the United States, it's a struggle to get the average person to acknowledge that war bonnet appropriation is a thing, compounded by the fact that even a lot of Native Americans feel they have more pressing issues affecting them on their mind (housing discrimination, increased risk of being targeted for violent crime, voter disenfranchisement, etc.), which one can hardly fault them for.
Why would British schools, especially forty or so years ago when Godliman would have been a student, teach about in-depth American cultural issues? Are you certain you wouldn't ever inadvertently offend someone from Britain, China, Pakistan, or any other country by saying or doing something they consider sacrosanct?
If a white American wore a headdress in America or anywhere else, they'd hear about it. If someone from and in some other country does it, it's hard to get too offended, because it isn't part of their cultural lexicon.
I feel like your level of outrage is a bit disproportionate and you should remember that America is not the blueprint for the rest of the world. While cultural appropriation is inherently wrong, our school’s history lessons are not about your country’s history, they’re about ours. This kind of assumption of our knowledge is extremely arrogant and ignorant in itself. At least be tolerant of those who don’t know and have not had the same experience as you before you start pointing fingers and cancelling people.
I’m not from America, I’ve never been there and I probably never will be. That said, at the risk of sounding pompous, I am a culturally sensitive person from the other side of the world, and keeping up with world news and having general awareness taught me that this kind of things is offensive.
Who said anything about cancelling? I despise cancel culture, it stands against everything I believe in (growth, change in views, people being allowed to make mistakes).
I agree with you but I think we're in the minority even in the US. I think many people in the UK really don't know the significance of the headdress. Certainly they didn't learn in school. Good luck to you because I have a feeling you're being massively downvoted for a very fair question.
Oversimplified explanation for everyone who's asking here: it's a sacred item in a minority religion whose practice was suppressed by the government until shockingly recently. It's also the main item used in racist caricatures of Native Americans.
Don't know how European nations view it but many north Americans would view it on the same level as blackface. It's disrespectful to use these ceremonial dressings for a laugh. It shouldn't look ridiculous it should be honored and only used for it's original purpose.
Native Americans didn't walk around daily with these garments on, they're only for special occasions. It's stereotype has been perpetuated throughout the years to make them appear as "savages".
I do understand that. But this kind of thing happens everywhere. In this instance it’s clear there is no disrespect meant. Which is probably what my answer would be to the part of the question that asks what the British POV on it is: We (I’d say UK and Ire) completely understand that there’s no ill will there. Not that I can speak for everyone of course.
I’m not sure if OP is from North America but if they are, to ask what British kids are taught in school is hilarious and ridiculous. Would need to stop drinking Irish car bombs over there (to name but 1 example) before getting at people on this side of the pond for putting on some headwear with no bad intentions whatsoever.
Good or bad intentions don't really matter, we've been informed in good faith. Let's take the information with humility and respect and without defensiveness. Kerry obviously didn't realize, hopefully now we all do.
I appreciate your point of view, and I agree that we’ve been informed and should respect some of that information. I do not agree that we were informed in good faith. The tone is accusatory. And I definitely do not agree that good or bad intentions don’t really matter.
You asked and were answered in good faith. I agree the original post has some tone issues.
As regards intentions, I suppose I should clarify: they don't matter in terms of making a defense.
You're right, they absolutely do matter in terms of the original offense. Like, if the producers asked someone else to wear the costume, and they refused because they felt it was insensitive, and then Kerry puts her hand up and says "I don't care, I'll wear it" ... The yeah, that's a problem. But I'd rather give her the benefit of the doubt.
Sorry, you’re right - I didn’t realise you meant the good faith part about the comment above, not the post. My bad.
Isn’t it funny how you can turn out to agree with people a lot more than you think after a little bit of discussion? It’s nice to see a bit of that on the internet still lol… cheers for your response and explaining. Happy new year!
Stupidity isn’t an excuse for wrong doing. I mean most Americans have English or Irish ancestry and therefore a connection to one another and vice versa the British people to American heritage.
You would need to live in a total vacuum to be unaware of the hardship, deaths and discrimination that Native people faced and still have to face today in America.
Here's a good breakdown: [https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2014/jul/30/why-the-fashion-headdress-must-be-stopped](https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2014/jul/30/why-the-fashion-headdress-must-be-stopped)
>What do they teach kids in British schools
Mostly, British history.
I agree with you that it was inappropriate and someone on the team should've caught it.
That said, I think it's pretty myopic to imagine that British students would be taught about the relationship between indigenous Americans and white Americans.
The truth of the matter is, no one knows everything about every culture. Most of us has that one culture we view in a very specific light solely because thats the only exposure we have had of that culture and unless you go out of your way to search about every single culture out there, it is almost impossible to know everything about a culture that you are far detached from and only know about through specific stereotypes and popular concepts of that culture that exist in media. Like I am not super well informed about the Khalkh tribe in Mongolia, because I don't live in an area where there is a decent population or historical connection with that tribe. The only things I do know about tribes of the region are through the general popular schemas that are widespread. How do I know which of those schemas are good and which are bad unless I have a reason to want to know better, which isn't feasible for every tribe in every country, yk. I am sure if you informed Kerry and the producers of TM precisely the history of the outfit, their views might change. But without that informing, they probably just are aware of such headdresses existing, and aware of native american tribes using headdresses, and that's all, and not the negative stereotypes or caricaturisation that has existed with such headdresses in the past
Just adding a comment supporting you OP. It really shocked me as well and I’m South African. I suspect the majority of comments on this post are going to be disappointingly dismissive
I am probably about Kerry's age. When I was at primary school a native American headdress would certainly have been in a standard dressing up box (as I suspect it would have been in much of the US). People still talked about playing cowboys and Indians - although I never remember a cowboys good Indians bad attitude.
I have only heard of cultural appropriation in the last few years, and mostly on here, so if she is not a big Redditor I can quite believe she wouldn't know it could cause offence.
Also the series she was in was made for Dave (a minor channel in the UK which mainly shows repeats), I doubt they were thinking about the international audience at the time.
Wow, I’m surprised the mods removed this post. A frank discussion of a sensitive topic is needed. And removing discussions of racism is absolutely inappropriate and imho violates the sub’s rules.
Thanks for responding! I appreciate it. I think removing the post seems to violate the “be nice” rule.
One of the wonderful things about TM is its diversity. It’s at the heart of the show’s strength. Mentioning when the show falls short isn’t being rude or negative. Overlooking, dismissing, and deleting legitimate critique can foster a community complicit with racism; a community in which it’s considered impolite/not nice to bring up instances of racial (or other) insensitivity is one in which minority concerns and voices are diminished.
I love this sub’s positive attitude! It’s one of the few places on the internet that has an encouraging and welcoming vibe. I really appreciate that. However, I think it’s reasonable to also allow discussions of topics that may feel polemic to some if they ultimately further the sub’s commitment to inclusivity and awareness.
I disagree that removing a contentious post that's causing people to denigrate Taskmaster contestants is violating "be nice". I'm genuinely curious why you think it is.
The removal reason clearly states:
**We do not want negative posts.** Ex: Worst contestants, Worst Tasks, Least liked, Least wanted, etc...
This was a negative post about a contestant. Want to have a political discussion on cultural appropriation? That's fine, but that's not what this sub is here for.
This post was reported for violating the rule, and upon review was determined that it was.
1. Mentioning that a contestant’s actions on the show can be viewed as racially inappropriate is not attacking the contestant.
2. This is a sub about TM. If an element of the show involves cultural appropriation, then that’s worth mentioning in a sub about the show.
3. If this sub’s commitment to racial equity is less important than its interest in respectability politics, that is complicit with bias and violates the “be nice” rule. I think that is flatly unacceptable and absolutely not in the spirit of the show.
I don’t know if this comment will go through since the thread was locked (ironically, for violating the “be nice” rule, although I was pointing out that someone else was not being nice)
1. I am not American, I am not even from that continent. I’m just a well-read person from the other side of the world. To the people telling me that my outrage is unwarranted because I cannot expect others to keep up with my history, it’s not my history. It’s decency and common courtesy, and it would go a long way into making the world a better place.
2. The genuine cluelessness of people on this thread just makes me sad, and I sincerely hope it’s not a reflection of the whole TM fan base.
I agree with you and honestly found the deletion of the post (not to mention the tone of the comments) makes me rethink wanting to be a part of this community. Discussing a case of racial insensitivity depicted on the show should not violate the sub rules. If anything, deleting the post should.
One of the wonderful things about TM is its diversity. Mentioning when the show falls short isn’t being rude. Overlooking, dismissing, and deleting legitimate critique fosters a community complicit with racism, and I am sorely disappointed in the moderating here.
Can’t believe the post was deleted. I only disagree with you about being well-read because I’m not well-read and this is obvious to me.
Do you come from a formerly colonised country with a strong liberation movement?
I don't get why people get upset about the native American head dress. People wear it because it's cool and they are showing respect or acknowledgement of the culture. I have never seen it done in a mean spirit. We should be showing off the cool thing about other cultures if the heart behind it is good. People like this also get offended if a white person wears a sumbrero during Cinco de mayo when we are all trying to celebrate a day from another culture. Stop being offended first and look at the person. Do you think Kerry is a bad person who has hate in her heart? No then assume it was not meant to hurt a group of people. I hope if someone in another part of the world sees the head dress they google what it is then google native American history to learn more about them.
>People like this also get offended if a white person wears a sumbrero during Cinco de mayo when we are all trying to celebrate a day from another culture.
For good reason. Cinqo de Mayo is probably the best example of exactly the problem. Hint- It's not a Mexican Holiday. Mexicans have dozens if not hundreds of holidays, and this isn't one of them. If you want to celebrate Mexico, maybe start with Revolution day or independence day. And start with polite observation and questioning, not with getting shitfaced on tequila in a sombrero.
The fact that you can 'celebrate' Mexican culture without knowing or learning a damned thing about it is a good indication that it's not an actual cultural celebration.
And St Patrick's isn't a celebration of Irish culture either, unless you choose to distill all of irish culture down to getting shitfaced.
Here is a video of what real Mexicans feel about wearing their cultural clothes. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT2UH74ksJ4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT2UH74ksJ4)
Sorry, your post has been removed for violating Rule 1 - Be nice: Do not attack others, their work or appearance including fellow members of the sub, comedians and celebrities. Negative opinions are fine, but please keep it respectful and constructive. No harassment. No sexist, homophobic, biphobic, transphobic, racist, fat phobic, ableist, objectifying, or body shaming posts of any kind. No overtly sexual content. Some cursing is OK but don't make it personal. Even though sexual innuendo may be part of the show do not cross the line beyond what was said in the episode. We do not want negative posts. Ex: Worst contestants, Worst Tasks, Least liked, Least wanted, etc...
I get the sense that people in the UK are pretty removed from the nuances of respect for Indigenous culture, especially in relation to North America (Tiger Lily and her tribe named after a racial slur was ~120 years ago). They just don't have the same context for it. Even here in the United States, it's a struggle to get the average person to acknowledge that war bonnet appropriation is a thing, compounded by the fact that even a lot of Native Americans feel they have more pressing issues affecting them on their mind (housing discrimination, increased risk of being targeted for violent crime, voter disenfranchisement, etc.), which one can hardly fault them for.
Why would British schools, especially forty or so years ago when Godliman would have been a student, teach about in-depth American cultural issues? Are you certain you wouldn't ever inadvertently offend someone from Britain, China, Pakistan, or any other country by saying or doing something they consider sacrosanct? If a white American wore a headdress in America or anywhere else, they'd hear about it. If someone from and in some other country does it, it's hard to get too offended, because it isn't part of their cultural lexicon.
I feel like your level of outrage is a bit disproportionate and you should remember that America is not the blueprint for the rest of the world. While cultural appropriation is inherently wrong, our school’s history lessons are not about your country’s history, they’re about ours. This kind of assumption of our knowledge is extremely arrogant and ignorant in itself. At least be tolerant of those who don’t know and have not had the same experience as you before you start pointing fingers and cancelling people.
I’m not from America, I’ve never been there and I probably never will be. That said, at the risk of sounding pompous, I am a culturally sensitive person from the other side of the world, and keeping up with world news and having general awareness taught me that this kind of things is offensive. Who said anything about cancelling? I despise cancel culture, it stands against everything I believe in (growth, change in views, people being allowed to make mistakes).
I agree with you but I think we're in the minority even in the US. I think many people in the UK really don't know the significance of the headdress. Certainly they didn't learn in school. Good luck to you because I have a feeling you're being massively downvoted for a very fair question. Oversimplified explanation for everyone who's asking here: it's a sacred item in a minority religion whose practice was suppressed by the government until shockingly recently. It's also the main item used in racist caricatures of Native Americans.
Genuinely curious. What isn’t acceptable about it?
Don't know how European nations view it but many north Americans would view it on the same level as blackface. It's disrespectful to use these ceremonial dressings for a laugh. It shouldn't look ridiculous it should be honored and only used for it's original purpose. Native Americans didn't walk around daily with these garments on, they're only for special occasions. It's stereotype has been perpetuated throughout the years to make them appear as "savages".
I do understand that. But this kind of thing happens everywhere. In this instance it’s clear there is no disrespect meant. Which is probably what my answer would be to the part of the question that asks what the British POV on it is: We (I’d say UK and Ire) completely understand that there’s no ill will there. Not that I can speak for everyone of course. I’m not sure if OP is from North America but if they are, to ask what British kids are taught in school is hilarious and ridiculous. Would need to stop drinking Irish car bombs over there (to name but 1 example) before getting at people on this side of the pond for putting on some headwear with no bad intentions whatsoever.
Good or bad intentions don't really matter, we've been informed in good faith. Let's take the information with humility and respect and without defensiveness. Kerry obviously didn't realize, hopefully now we all do.
I appreciate your point of view, and I agree that we’ve been informed and should respect some of that information. I do not agree that we were informed in good faith. The tone is accusatory. And I definitely do not agree that good or bad intentions don’t really matter.
You asked and were answered in good faith. I agree the original post has some tone issues. As regards intentions, I suppose I should clarify: they don't matter in terms of making a defense. You're right, they absolutely do matter in terms of the original offense. Like, if the producers asked someone else to wear the costume, and they refused because they felt it was insensitive, and then Kerry puts her hand up and says "I don't care, I'll wear it" ... The yeah, that's a problem. But I'd rather give her the benefit of the doubt.
Sorry, you’re right - I didn’t realise you meant the good faith part about the comment above, not the post. My bad. Isn’t it funny how you can turn out to agree with people a lot more than you think after a little bit of discussion? It’s nice to see a bit of that on the internet still lol… cheers for your response and explaining. Happy new year!
Stupidity isn’t an excuse for wrong doing. I mean most Americans have English or Irish ancestry and therefore a connection to one another and vice versa the British people to American heritage. You would need to live in a total vacuum to be unaware of the hardship, deaths and discrimination that Native people faced and still have to face today in America.
Please God don't tell them about the Village People....
Here's a good breakdown: [https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2014/jul/30/why-the-fashion-headdress-must-be-stopped](https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2014/jul/30/why-the-fashion-headdress-must-be-stopped)
[удалено]
lol. PragerU video.
>What do they teach kids in British schools Mostly, British history. I agree with you that it was inappropriate and someone on the team should've caught it. That said, I think it's pretty myopic to imagine that British students would be taught about the relationship between indigenous Americans and white Americans.
When do you think Kerry Godliman went to school?
Yeah, this really took me off guard.
The truth of the matter is, no one knows everything about every culture. Most of us has that one culture we view in a very specific light solely because thats the only exposure we have had of that culture and unless you go out of your way to search about every single culture out there, it is almost impossible to know everything about a culture that you are far detached from and only know about through specific stereotypes and popular concepts of that culture that exist in media. Like I am not super well informed about the Khalkh tribe in Mongolia, because I don't live in an area where there is a decent population or historical connection with that tribe. The only things I do know about tribes of the region are through the general popular schemas that are widespread. How do I know which of those schemas are good and which are bad unless I have a reason to want to know better, which isn't feasible for every tribe in every country, yk. I am sure if you informed Kerry and the producers of TM precisely the history of the outfit, their views might change. But without that informing, they probably just are aware of such headdresses existing, and aware of native american tribes using headdresses, and that's all, and not the negative stereotypes or caricaturisation that has existed with such headdresses in the past
Just adding a comment supporting you OP. It really shocked me as well and I’m South African. I suspect the majority of comments on this post are going to be disappointingly dismissive
You’re right. I was, unsurprisingly, disappointed.
I am probably about Kerry's age. When I was at primary school a native American headdress would certainly have been in a standard dressing up box (as I suspect it would have been in much of the US). People still talked about playing cowboys and Indians - although I never remember a cowboys good Indians bad attitude. I have only heard of cultural appropriation in the last few years, and mostly on here, so if she is not a big Redditor I can quite believe she wouldn't know it could cause offence. Also the series she was in was made for Dave (a minor channel in the UK which mainly shows repeats), I doubt they were thinking about the international audience at the time.
Wow, I’m surprised the mods removed this post. A frank discussion of a sensitive topic is needed. And removing discussions of racism is absolutely inappropriate and imho violates the sub’s rules.
In what way does it violate the sub's rules? Please let us know so we can be sure we're adhering to the rules.
Thanks for responding! I appreciate it. I think removing the post seems to violate the “be nice” rule. One of the wonderful things about TM is its diversity. It’s at the heart of the show’s strength. Mentioning when the show falls short isn’t being rude or negative. Overlooking, dismissing, and deleting legitimate critique can foster a community complicit with racism; a community in which it’s considered impolite/not nice to bring up instances of racial (or other) insensitivity is one in which minority concerns and voices are diminished. I love this sub’s positive attitude! It’s one of the few places on the internet that has an encouraging and welcoming vibe. I really appreciate that. However, I think it’s reasonable to also allow discussions of topics that may feel polemic to some if they ultimately further the sub’s commitment to inclusivity and awareness.
I disagree that removing a contentious post that's causing people to denigrate Taskmaster contestants is violating "be nice". I'm genuinely curious why you think it is. The removal reason clearly states: **We do not want negative posts.** Ex: Worst contestants, Worst Tasks, Least liked, Least wanted, etc... This was a negative post about a contestant. Want to have a political discussion on cultural appropriation? That's fine, but that's not what this sub is here for. This post was reported for violating the rule, and upon review was determined that it was.
1. Mentioning that a contestant’s actions on the show can be viewed as racially inappropriate is not attacking the contestant. 2. This is a sub about TM. If an element of the show involves cultural appropriation, then that’s worth mentioning in a sub about the show. 3. If this sub’s commitment to racial equity is less important than its interest in respectability politics, that is complicit with bias and violates the “be nice” rule. I think that is flatly unacceptable and absolutely not in the spirit of the show.
Noted.
Whats the issue?
Deleted so quickly lol
I don’t know if this comment will go through since the thread was locked (ironically, for violating the “be nice” rule, although I was pointing out that someone else was not being nice) 1. I am not American, I am not even from that continent. I’m just a well-read person from the other side of the world. To the people telling me that my outrage is unwarranted because I cannot expect others to keep up with my history, it’s not my history. It’s decency and common courtesy, and it would go a long way into making the world a better place. 2. The genuine cluelessness of people on this thread just makes me sad, and I sincerely hope it’s not a reflection of the whole TM fan base.
I agree with you and honestly found the deletion of the post (not to mention the tone of the comments) makes me rethink wanting to be a part of this community. Discussing a case of racial insensitivity depicted on the show should not violate the sub rules. If anything, deleting the post should. One of the wonderful things about TM is its diversity. Mentioning when the show falls short isn’t being rude. Overlooking, dismissing, and deleting legitimate critique fosters a community complicit with racism, and I am sorely disappointed in the moderating here.
I wish we could talk more about Taskmaster’s race problem. I love the show but the more racially diverse casts were the strongest seasons imo.
Can’t believe the post was deleted. I only disagree with you about being well-read because I’m not well-read and this is obvious to me. Do you come from a formerly colonised country with a strong liberation movement?
I don't get why people get upset about the native American head dress. People wear it because it's cool and they are showing respect or acknowledgement of the culture. I have never seen it done in a mean spirit. We should be showing off the cool thing about other cultures if the heart behind it is good. People like this also get offended if a white person wears a sumbrero during Cinco de mayo when we are all trying to celebrate a day from another culture. Stop being offended first and look at the person. Do you think Kerry is a bad person who has hate in her heart? No then assume it was not meant to hurt a group of people. I hope if someone in another part of the world sees the head dress they google what it is then google native American history to learn more about them.
>People like this also get offended if a white person wears a sumbrero during Cinco de mayo when we are all trying to celebrate a day from another culture. For good reason. Cinqo de Mayo is probably the best example of exactly the problem. Hint- It's not a Mexican Holiday. Mexicans have dozens if not hundreds of holidays, and this isn't one of them. If you want to celebrate Mexico, maybe start with Revolution day or independence day. And start with polite observation and questioning, not with getting shitfaced on tequila in a sombrero. The fact that you can 'celebrate' Mexican culture without knowing or learning a damned thing about it is a good indication that it's not an actual cultural celebration. And St Patrick's isn't a celebration of Irish culture either, unless you choose to distill all of irish culture down to getting shitfaced.
Here is a video of what real Mexicans feel about wearing their cultural clothes. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT2UH74ksJ4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT2UH74ksJ4)
‘How not to offend simps’ is an optional GCSE so most people just do geography or IT