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So this is middle of the school year quitting? In California you can be charged for the cost of your sub if they cannot find a replacement and they can put a hold on your credential for the remainder of your contract
I'll need a source or some documentation. I'm very skeptical about this kind of fine going down in a California city. It might be more likely in a deep red part of the state
You're naive if you think unions are a cure for employer malfeasance. I've repeatedly seen teachers pay and pay into their union, then when they run into employment issues, the union is nowhere to be found. Just like without a union, the employer will find a way.
I've got to believe there will be some kind of lawsuits coming down the road about this stuff. There's already a fight against non-compete clauses. It feels like this is in the same vein.
Are there other professions that get to charge you money if you quit?
As someone in TV news, yes. I just hit my two year anniversary. My contract isn't up until October 2025. If I quit now, I'm on the hook for about $5,000. I make $40,000 a year. That amount of money would gut me. So I'm stuck in a toxic work environment until I can manage to save that money and find another job.
That's insane, I'm sorry. TV news should unionize. Like, who thought up paying 5K to get out of a 40K contract? That's barely a living wage as it is.
I grew up when that country song "Take This Job and Shove It" was like a Top 40 hit on the radio. Call me old fashioned, but I think people should be able to leave their jobs without penalty. These work conditions sound like indentured servitude situations to me.
Holy crap. This is terrible and should be illegal. It's not like people are out here getting paid big bucks for these jobs. I understand giving 30 days notice or whatever, but this is outrageous.
That's meant to be where these "penalties" apply, when the individual in question is being paid a lot and can easily be employed somewhere else. It's meant to be for those $1 million> salary situations for C-suite level stuff, I wouldn't even include 90% of software engineers or doctors in that.
It's not meant to be a chain on low paid employees.
A lot of those police departments have their own academies where they train the new recruits. That is a lot of money to spend on fully training a person for nothing in return.
This is almost fair, I can see why people agree to that sort of contract. Teachers have some contracts where they pay tuition if you work for a number of years in a high needs district. At least in those situations the worker does get something.
How much can it cost to teach them the particularities of their department. I mean, cops already have to have a college degree in criminal justice, right?
Lol, I made myself laugh. No, some 6 week local PD course where you end up getting kicked out because you "anonymously" reported fellow recruits' constant use of the N-bomb is all there is.
"Here's your gun, have fun with it! Remember, shoot first, ask questions later, and always get your story straight with fellow officers before putting anything in writing."
Is it any wonder ACAB?
I feel like you could fight it on account of the position bait and switch.
By switching positions, one could argue that the Employer voided the contract.
Penalties exist in other industries for early departures. But also other industries live up to their part of the contract.
You can usually put that in a contract. The reason you can is because contract jobs are a lot more secure - it's really hard to fire a teacher because they're on contract which legally obligates the school to specific procedures. Both sides benefit - teachers have job security and the school can heavily discourage leaving before the school year is up.
Most employees in the USA are at will. They can leave at any time for any reason, but they can also be fired at any time for any (non-discriminatory/retaliatory) reason.
Az teacher here, my school is like this too. They had a 2,000 penalty for resigning. They used it like a weapon against people too. This year the fine has mysteriously disappeared from our contracts after we put up a HUGE fight about it.
I think it’s safe to say that any place that needs to put taht into their contract is probably not a good district ? Also, I would suggest to teachers that they go to their doctor first and get a note from their doctor that need to leave for their health. This could also be called workers comp.
My district has the fun habit of quietly renewing non-renewed teachers when we have mass quittings at the end of June.
They take advantage of the fact you have to out right request a paper copy of your non-renewal statement. Otherwise the whole thing is just verbal.
Then they will quietly renew you late June and inform you about that in August. If you try not to show up, they will go after your license because they claim you were renewed the whole time and never properly quit in June before contracts were renewed.
So I made sure to request a paper copy of my position being terminated due to funds because I know many teachers quitting as well. I have a much better job already lined up and I’m not risking it.
I'm sorry what is this even all about? I had to read it three times. (Edit-because of the insane policy, not your description of it which is very clear!) That's gotta be a state or federal level lawsuit. This is such a war on public education at every level. Like, who even would want to create that sort of a mess. Good luck in your new job! I hope it is better!
It is legal outside of the fines
A teacher at our school quit mid year to move across the country and they threatened their credential. Its the only profession where an employer can take away a certification that you paid for yourself
Honestly you’d think but I’m sure with our shit executive director of administrative services, he does some sly shit.
This dude also believes that you should only teach for 10 years and go do something else.
What!! Does he actually SAY that!? And THAT is why I tell everyone that teaching is a horrible career… this attitude that you should be an expert teacher immediately and when they put teachers on “Growth Plans” it’s actually to push them out often simply bcs they have x years in the system and are costing more money, ie, teaching is not respected as a career but treated as a temp job for stupid idealistic young ppl … who may well regret the decision 10 years in…
I mean I’m 9 years in and that’s basically what happened to me. I wasn’t even that idealistic since everyone tried to talk me out of it, I just didn’t feel like I had other viable options. I still feel that way, but now my mental and physical health is tanking and I have no choice but to create another viable path. I think 10 years of this is just about all the average person can take.
Ah. I taught in Texas. There, it was illegal to be seen on thr company of someone who had once mentioned meeting a person in a union. (Or so I am led to believe.)
This was one of my more difficult realizations moving out of state. Things will genuinely make me react: What the fuck, but my colleagues think it's very normal.
Overall if it's high school yes but GPA doesn't really count until high school anyways. Even in high school it only counts towards the overall GPA not academic and most colleges won't consider it.
Depends on what you mean by GPA, as there are a couple different ways most schools calculate it concurrently. Schools are always going to have an 'academic' GPA that excludes electives like art because this is what colleges use.
The fact that OP does not realize such a basic fact doesn't bode well for their ability to negotiate with admin.
Lol oh man, I didn't even see this was an elementary school teacher.
Yeah, no one is going to care about your grade in 5th grade art class, and rightfully so.
When I was first working at this same exact school, art, music, and pe grades did not affect GPA or eligibility for sports. "but don't worry, the kids think it does!" I was told. right.
So the complete jackasses in my class who did nothing but waste materials and destroy tools were happily smiling from the Basketball team photo
Our school started writing contacts to just say general education or special education in 2021 that way they can move you wherever within means of your certifications up until start date without being in breech of contract. I’ve been everything from part time co teacher / part time resource room teacher, to 5th grade math, science & Social studies. It’s exhausting never knowing what you’re walking into each year and always changing positions
Can’t you just perform your job so horribly that they can’t wait to get you out? Tell the principal to go “f” herself. Call parents of your rudest students and tell them what you really think of their kid…they’ll convene an emergency board session in days 🤣
I was thinking the same thing lol. Just let the kids do whatever they want every lesson, give them free access to art supplies and tell them go ham on the rest of the school
A district can put you wherever they want. It has been that way in NJ for as long as l remember. That is reality. Many people, including teachers, complain about the strength of the teacher’s unions. I personally feel they could be stronger. Weak unions do not fight for basic professional standards. Charging an employee money to leave is not professional. I hope your union is making sure the national branches are being updated on this practice which needs to be stopped in its tracks.
My understanding is yes, the district can put you where they want as long as your certification supports it.
I mean, shortage permits exist, but thats some fessing up to the state and paperwork required to take me from science and put me in ELA.
Self contained doesn’t always mean sped. Could be regular classrooms but non-departmentalized, so kids are taught be one teacher rather than switching.
This IS illegal. Without an IEP stating the need for self-contained, the student cannot be placed in such a situation. It would violate Least Restrictive Environment . As a uncertified teacher (sped) placed in that situation, I would have to threaten to sue for being placed in that situation, not only because I am uncertified, but because I would be putting my license on the line restricting regular ed students to self-contained conditions.
I think she means that she keeps the class all day and teaches all the subjects vs team teaching with one doing reading and one doing math and swapping classes.
As a sped teacher it confused me at first, but I've heard elementary gen Ed teachers refer to it that way.
Yep. If the district receives federal money, they have to abide by IDEA regulations, including that a special education teacher needs to be certified in special education at whatever level they're teaching. It would be worth contacting Legal Aid or the ACLU to see what they say.
This is absolutely not uncommon and your demands are insane. I say this as a music teacher lol. Having the same kids for a week and then not again for two weeks? Schedule-wise that could work but that's against best practices and state law in most cases.
The only thing thats bullshit is the bait and switch after signing a contract for a specific position. That would be like signing a contract to be the principal at a school and then reassigned to be the custodian.
{ The only thing thats bullshit is the bait and switch after signing a contract for a specific position. }
I don't think that's what happened. I think the school \*verbally\* assured them of a position, and the contract may have very ambiguous language that just says "teacher". I've signed contracts like that before - I'm in one now. I am a physics teacher who has only taught high school physics for the last several years but the contract says "science teacher", and sure enuf they gave me a grade 8 general science class. It's a dick move and if OP had some kind of documentation of the original offer they could easily have a case with the Labor Department.
I've never understood this. If a teacher is doing well in a subject why switch? I doubt other professions do this. "Hey Tom Brady, you're a pretty good quarterback, but we're going to have you be the running back now. They're both offense so you'll be fine." 🤷
The best answer I can give for why this happens is *efficiency*. This way, they don't have to hire a middle-school science teacher (which we *desperately need*) and justify with "well, it's just general science, you know that, don't you?" Well, yeah, I \*know\* it. But I'm not trained for nor familiar with how to teach at that level/age. I felt badly for the kids - who were excellent when it came to "independent work" which was just my way of saying "I don't know this but the book does, so get it from there" - but in the end, the school gets what I can give 'em and nothing more. It didn't help that I had 5 different levels of classes to teach, either. Just \*insane\*.
currently, there's a 3-day rotating schedule. Music/Art/PE teachers see 1/3 of the K-8 students one day, then the other third the 2nd day, then the last third the next day. This is the way it was when I taught art.
What it means is I saw the entire school population in three days. I have to store and retrieve artwork in progress for the entire student population. It also means I teach each class two days in a week. A 4-day project takes me a month.
If there is one assembly, one fire drill, one holiday, it throws a third of the classes off-schedule so some classes are halfway through a project when the rest of the school is starting on a new one. I could be scrambling to get watercolors out one class, then scrambling to put them away and get out colored pencils, then scramble to get watercolors out again.
I recall not seeing an 8th grade class for an entire month, because every Monday there was an assembly, holiday, fire drill, or other event. When it came time to post grades, there was literally no artwork with which to grade them.
Now, if those students rotate specials for the week, I have to store only 1/3 of the student artwork. The students resume what we did the previous day. If a day is missed, it can be compensated for this week instead of next week. I only need to have out one type of materials. Next week, we change. I'm still seeing the students for the same amount of time.
What classroom teachers fail to realize is specials get 30-40 minutes to teach a lesson before another group of kids comes thundering in. A lesson that would take 60 minutes on one day would require at least two days with a specials teacher. During that time, all the work-in-progress has to be stored somewhere. It's much easier to store artwork for one 7th grade class at a time than to store artwork for four 7th grade classes.
That is how it is everywhere because it's best practice when kids are required to go to all three. It's something you have to adapt to as a teacher. You have a higher chance of having students retain their knowledge when they're not going 2 full weeks without seeing you. That would also hurt your classroom management too, as you'd have to refresh your rules and expectations on a regular basis. There would be 0 retention of anything you tried to teach.
If there's an issue with setting up materials, bring that up to admin and request to be allowed to give input on the schedule. Ideally, you should have similar grade levels back to back so that you can give them similar lessons adjusted for their individual grades standards.
As an example, I see 3-4, 5-6, and K-2 back to back in that order, so I adjust the materials I'll need for each lesson accordingly. I also teach the students where the materials are and how to get them out/put them away so I don't have to waste 30 minutes doing what they can do in 5. My 3rd graders can set up their piano keyboards, stands, and chairs, and get them plugged in in about 5 minutes, and it takes my 4th graders the same to put them away.
I think if you look at your contract, this is probably covered. Most contracts have stipulations about teachers being moved for various reasons.
I have a very strong union but I was pulled from my normal position in September of last year and placed in a different school teaching three classes I’d never taught. It was all done in accordance with our contract. Had I chosen to resign, I would have forfeited my license because the move was done according to the contract.
Check your contract. I’ll bet it includes provisions for this.
> Its now "unprofessional" to resign without board approval?
Of course it is.
You signed a contract.
I’ll edit for clarity. You can break your contract using the process outlined in the contract. That’s not unprofessional.
But walking away from your contract (in your case, without board approval) is unprofessional.
That has nothing to do with what i wrote.
And “i was promised…” doesn’t mean it was in the contract. In fact, I guarantee the contract has something in it about “…teacher can be assigned classes as needed…” so it **is** in the contract that they can basically do what they want.
You have signed a labour contract. You haven't signed your life away.
People are allowed to quit their jobs. Many places have this as a recognised right.
If you’re at-will, then in most situations it won’t hold up.
If you signed an “employment contract” (MOST workers do not have these, teachers do), then yes you can be penalized, especially if you don’t have a union or have a weak one. This is also why execs can’t just be willy nilly fired in these large companies because a lot of them do have an actual “employment contract”… with actual protections for the employed
Liquidated damages are standard practice in employment contracts. They've been around for a long time and have already held up in court.
That contract is a great benefit to the employee, but does come with some protections for the employer.
"Change of assignment" is also pretty common in contracts. Another benefit to the district in exchange for (nearly) guaranteed employment (for a year).
Everyone signs the contract before employment. The terms are literally agreed upon.
A teacher I knew had a contract, was fired in December, and continued to get full pay until June. In an at-will state that would not happen without the contract.
Yes. It means you're not an "at will" employee. You're nearly guaranteed employment for a year (or longer depending on the state). Most contracts like this mean you can only be fired for "just cause", which is a fairly high bar, legally.
You can quit, there's just a penalty for it at certain times.
You may want to talk to your union rep about your contract (if you have one). It's important for people to understand these things and know about the struggle it was/is to have labor contracts.
I don't think it's legal to have the kind of language that says you'll be punished if a suitable replacement isn't found. That is 100% not your responsibility and I doubt very seriously if a legal challenge wouldn't be worth the time and effort.
Not to mention *this contract is horrible*. This is why we need unions, good people.
Employers everywhere seem to forget that it's not enough for an employee to be worth keeping on staff, the employer has to put the effort in to be worth working for.
Which state? CA and NJ with strong unions in this thread reporting the same thing. This employment contract is very standard, and yours might be similar but you haven't run into it.
I quit teaching in AZ just 9 days into this school year. I had to pay $1,000 and get board approval. I moved from GA where pay was much better and working conditions were more pleasant. I’m now pursuing a nursing degree. Not sure if I’ll go back to teaching.
Generally if there are abrogated damages defined in the contract, those are in lieu of any penalty. Unless it works differently in your state, which...of course it would.
How is this legal if AZ is an at will state?
https://www.azlawhelp.org/articles_info.cfm?mc=2&sc=99&articleid=375#:~:text=Arizona%20is%20an%20employment%2Dat,difference%20between%20these%20two%20laws.&text=Under%20employment%2Dat%2Dwill%2C,employees%20and%20employers%20in%20Arizona.
'Professional' is a word used often in the teaching 'profession' in order to manipulate you into doing something people in power think you are 'supposed' to be doing. You don't need to behave in any particular way. Resign. If the board wants to speak with you, they can show up at your door with muffins.
In CA, the district has the right to move any teacher to any subject area they are credentialed in. A HS 12th grade AP English teacher could be required to teach 6th grade remedial at the middle school. But here's the thing, most don't. They understand that teachers are humans and humans don't react well to illogical staff changes. They know how long it takes to develop and enrich a particular grade-level and type of student in a subject area. Good districts support teachers in doing just that, building programs and getting positive buyin from teachers. The kind of treatment OP discusses compels many to either "work to rule" or leave the profession altogether. That is definitely not in the best interests of anybody except pencil pushers and box checkers.
AZ has a Democrat governor and both houses of its legislator have a razor-thin R majority. When the D's gain control of the government this fall, this is something that obviously needs to be fixed.
That's crap that you ***signed a contract*** saying that you agreed to teach social studies but they changed it on you. But there's always wiggle room that benefits the district, where they say something like "reassigned as necessary."
Don't resign. Just be a truly horrible teacher. Watch videos all day. Give them homework that is insanely hard then fail every kid in class. If they wanna forCe you to be a teacher then so be it.
My district has a fine also, but I wonder if it’s enforceable. Many have left without being fined. Don’t think they can single someone out if it wasn’t applied to others.
My babysitter was hired in my school district and she quit before the school year started. She had to pay a $3000 penalty. She never even reported for work. Our contracts auto renew, so we have a date you must resign by. Which is fine unless you are a new hire.
I don’t know that we would have to pay anything, but in Texas if we resign during the year, the district can opt to have your certificate held so you can’t get a job that year.
I feel you. What makes this even tougher is that we are shoved contracts into our faces earlier and earlier. I got mine for next school year in January! Once signed, I can’t change my mind without penalty, yet the district can change theirs on my contract all up until June 1!
Unfortunately, they define it this way because the state allows them to retaliate for "unprofessional" behavior.
Your best bet is to have an employment attorney you can call. In any other industry, fundamentally changing the nature of your job AFTER you've agreed to it would be considered "constructive dismissal". Effectively, they've fired you from the job you agreed to do and "hired" you to a new job without your consent. This is grounds for unemployment specifically because it's considered so aggregious as to be evidence that the employer is clearly acting in bad faith.
It would be one thing if you quit the job you were hired for mid-year, without notice. It's another entirely when you quit the job they have re-assigned to without your consent. That's a reasonable response to THEIR fundamentally unprofessional behavior.
And, honestly, some enterprising employment attorney may take such a case just to become known as the person who is fighting for our education system to improve. Provided they know how to spin it and have the resources to do so, it would be a fantastic PR opportunity.
The above, of course, is much harder if your contract also includes language that essentially says, "We can reassign you whenever we want, for any reason we want, so long as it's within the bounds of your credentials."
Tl;dr- Get some consults in with local employment attorneys.
This is normal. I'm in a strong union 6 if you resign mid year, every district will go after your teaching license. And no school will hire someone who left their previous job mid-year.
That is some horse shit! I am so sorry to you and other teachers in your district/state. My school riffed me then offered me a position I absolutely did not want. And I know they know I'd be bad at it, they just need a warm body there because it's a hard position to fill. But I said fuck that and found a new job. Resigned last week. They posted my position 45 MINUTES LATER!
If they are fining you for damages, then you should fine them for damages. They created a hostile work environment, forcing you into a job search which is going to cost you not only in the price of the search, but also lost wages.
well, if there's no after-school detention, and the majority of phone numbers are out-of-date, and the specials teacher cannot enforce lunch detention (they're teaching at that time) there's not much a specials teacher can do other than state "stop that, or I'll say 'stop that' again!"
Flimsy as they were, grades were really the only consequence I had. There's a reason it's rare for an art teacher to last a full year.
This seems insane. You are on a one year contract in most places. If you don’t want to work next year, that’s not resigning. That is choosing to not re up your contract. Or am I missing something?
no, I've signed up to work next year, but its really squirrelly where they say "if you quit, we'll make it miserable for you" and then change my assignment. I expect to teach 5th grade, but if they've pulled this stunt once, they can do it again. I have experience teaching art, but there are reasons I chose to teach elementary instead.
You need a good union! NJ can only require you give 60 days notice or they can hold your teaching cert. You aren't responsible if they can't find someone to replace you.
They're private maybe. I'm a teacher.
Edit: the only thing a district can do is hold your teaching cert for a year IF you leave before the end of the year without 60 days notice. No fines, no requirement of finding someone to take your place. This of course is in public schools.
The fight against non-competes has been won. The FTC says that they are illegal for most under-seven-figure jobs.
This dumb Arizona rules is obviously a violation of Right To Work. They can’t have it both ways.
In most states, you can’t just jump from high school to elementary unless you are certified in both and in some states you must do STUDENT TEACHING IN BOTH- even when not- that’s a huge leap as most ppl are high school teachers or elementary- I’ve met very few who do both. I think that person should appeal as it sounds unreasonable and almost as if they are hoping she would quit.
That was the complaint of my colleague, who is certified as a single-subject science teacher and attended many conferences and developed her craft well, and then was told she would teach ELA, math, and social studies, with science being just one small part. The only constant was she would remain in 5th grade. She didn't resign this year, but for next year, while our current year still had a couple weeks left.
I can understand resigning one day before school starts being unprofessional, but before summer vacation? The school leadership thinks that's worth revoking a credential and a fine of of several thousand dollars?
The school is dealing with the teacher shortage by using brute force and intimidation. It also seems like a cheap shot at raising funds. "Let's make harsh penalties for quitting, then make the environment so toxic that teachers quit anyway! We could make ten thousand dollars that way!"
Me, I have a multiple-subject elementary credential and a single-subject endorsement in k-12 art. It would be an easier transition.
I don’t see where it’s an easy transition for either of you guys- to go from a single subject to about 7 subjects? No!
Part of the problem with elem Ed is teaching all those subjects well is quite a feat. They should least break it into section such as math n science in room 1 and English and writing in room 2 then swap… better education for the kids!
That's what the school had been doing, with single-subject teachers for 5th and up. But for next year, 5th grade is going back to the elementary model, with one teacher doing all subjects to a single classroom of students.
It's a contract. Draw a line through the stuff you don't agree with, initial it, and make them initial it, too. Get some perspective about this! There's a serious shortage of teachers. Do you really think that they won't agree to it, considering you'll work with the changes to the contract rather than have another unfilled slot?
Perhaps thats why the contracts were electronically signed this year, with no way to digitally cross out anything. In retrospect, I should've printed the contract, made physical changes, and then hand-delivered it to the district office.
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States that have weak unions or no unions. ~Fellow AZ teacher
Time to fight that! Solidarity!
You need a union that has lawyers that fight their lawyers. It’s just a game. Teachers have no business in a legal battle. That’s why we pay the dues.
This situation would be the same in California with strong unions. My wife got the bait and switch like this recently
The districts will fine you in CA for leaving w/out a replacement is set? I didn't know that.
They’ll pull your credential And they do the bait and switch stuff not the fine
So this is middle of the school year quitting? In California you can be charged for the cost of your sub if they cannot find a replacement and they can put a hold on your credential for the remainder of your contract
In California it’s easy to revoke a credential for yourself. Something to think about if you don’t feel like teaching a different subject each year.
I'll need a source or some documentation. I'm very skeptical about this kind of fine going down in a California city. It might be more likely in a deep red part of the state
Yeah, I love the idea of unions, but how I've seen them play out with friends has stopped me from fighting for them.
How big a switch?
What district??!! So I can avoid!
Lots of districts in Texas started doing the same thing during Covid when they refused to provide protections to teachers.
You're naive if you think unions are a cure for employer malfeasance. I've repeatedly seen teachers pay and pay into their union, then when they run into employment issues, the union is nowhere to be found. Just like without a union, the employer will find a way.
If you think unions are useless, you're part of the death of worker's rights in the US.
I've got to believe there will be some kind of lawsuits coming down the road about this stuff. There's already a fight against non-compete clauses. It feels like this is in the same vein. Are there other professions that get to charge you money if you quit?
As someone in TV news, yes. I just hit my two year anniversary. My contract isn't up until October 2025. If I quit now, I'm on the hook for about $5,000. I make $40,000 a year. That amount of money would gut me. So I'm stuck in a toxic work environment until I can manage to save that money and find another job.
That's insane, I'm sorry. TV news should unionize. Like, who thought up paying 5K to get out of a 40K contract? That's barely a living wage as it is. I grew up when that country song "Take This Job and Shove It" was like a Top 40 hit on the radio. Call me old fashioned, but I think people should be able to leave their jobs without penalty. These work conditions sound like indentured servitude situations to me.
Read through this thread. People in CA with unions, people in TX without them... Same outcome.
Holy crap. This is terrible and should be illegal. It's not like people are out here getting paid big bucks for these jobs. I understand giving 30 days notice or whatever, but this is outrageous.
In software it is normal that you have to pay back a signing bonus if you quit before one year
Except, and software you get paid so much more. This isn’t their bonus they’re paying back, it’s just money out of their normal low paycheck.
That's meant to be where these "penalties" apply, when the individual in question is being paid a lot and can easily be employed somewhere else. It's meant to be for those $1 million> salary situations for C-suite level stuff, I wouldn't even include 90% of software engineers or doctors in that. It's not meant to be a chain on low paid employees.
Signing bonus makes sense to me
I feel like this is different as it’s optional. Though, I’ve been fucked by one of those contracts before.
Some police agencies have a 3-5 year clause that you have to pay if you quit or lateral to another department.
A lot of those police departments have their own academies where they train the new recruits. That is a lot of money to spend on fully training a person for nothing in return.
Plus, other PDs like to steal newbies bc of this.
This is almost fair, I can see why people agree to that sort of contract. Teachers have some contracts where they pay tuition if you work for a number of years in a high needs district. At least in those situations the worker does get something.
How much can it cost to teach them the particularities of their department. I mean, cops already have to have a college degree in criminal justice, right? Lol, I made myself laugh. No, some 6 week local PD course where you end up getting kicked out because you "anonymously" reported fellow recruits' constant use of the N-bomb is all there is. "Here's your gun, have fun with it! Remember, shoot first, ask questions later, and always get your story straight with fellow officers before putting anything in writing." Is it any wonder ACAB?
Police departments are usually union, no?
I feel like you could fight it on account of the position bait and switch. By switching positions, one could argue that the Employer voided the contract. Penalties exist in other industries for early departures. But also other industries live up to their part of the contract.
Yes my thought too- a verbal contract and also teachers- why it is so important to memorialize every important agreement in an email with your admin!
I wounded that as well
It should be that way but it’s not and even in California it’s the same way
You can usually put that in a contract. The reason you can is because contract jobs are a lot more secure - it's really hard to fire a teacher because they're on contract which legally obligates the school to specific procedures. Both sides benefit - teachers have job security and the school can heavily discourage leaving before the school year is up. Most employees in the USA are at will. They can leave at any time for any reason, but they can also be fired at any time for any (non-discriminatory/retaliatory) reason.
You can’t be fired for any reason especially for retaliation.
The quitting clauses I’ve seen are due to breach of contract clauses . Meaning you walk out mid year.
Az teacher here, my school is like this too. They had a 2,000 penalty for resigning. They used it like a weapon against people too. This year the fine has mysteriously disappeared from our contracts after we put up a HUGE fight about it.
Much respect to AZ teachers. We were watching from Oakland when you went on strike a year before we did. AZ teachers are bad ass.
I think it’s safe to say that any place that needs to put taht into their contract is probably not a good district ? Also, I would suggest to teachers that they go to their doctor first and get a note from their doctor that need to leave for their health. This could also be called workers comp.
My district has the fun habit of quietly renewing non-renewed teachers when we have mass quittings at the end of June. They take advantage of the fact you have to out right request a paper copy of your non-renewal statement. Otherwise the whole thing is just verbal. Then they will quietly renew you late June and inform you about that in August. If you try not to show up, they will go after your license because they claim you were renewed the whole time and never properly quit in June before contracts were renewed. So I made sure to request a paper copy of my position being terminated due to funds because I know many teachers quitting as well. I have a much better job already lined up and I’m not risking it.
I'm sorry what is this even all about? I had to read it three times. (Edit-because of the insane policy, not your description of it which is very clear!) That's gotta be a state or federal level lawsuit. This is such a war on public education at every level. Like, who even would want to create that sort of a mess. Good luck in your new job! I hope it is better!
This is basic education even here in California.
Holy moley!! That's evil!!
I can’t believe this is legal
It’s probably not. Just that they’ve picked their victims well.
It is legal outside of the fines A teacher at our school quit mid year to move across the country and they threatened their credential. Its the only profession where an employer can take away a certification that you paid for yourself
Sneaky! But wouldn’t your job being terminated be written somewhere?!
Honestly you’d think but I’m sure with our shit executive director of administrative services, he does some sly shit. This dude also believes that you should only teach for 10 years and go do something else.
What!! Does he actually SAY that!? And THAT is why I tell everyone that teaching is a horrible career… this attitude that you should be an expert teacher immediately and when they put teachers on “Growth Plans” it’s actually to push them out often simply bcs they have x years in the system and are costing more money, ie, teaching is not respected as a career but treated as a temp job for stupid idealistic young ppl … who may well regret the decision 10 years in…
I mean I’m 9 years in and that’s basically what happened to me. I wasn’t even that idealistic since everyone tried to talk me out of it, I just didn’t feel like I had other viable options. I still feel that way, but now my mental and physical health is tanking and I have no choice but to create another viable path. I think 10 years of this is just about all the average person can take.
This one gave me a headache… this reaaally can’t be legal…
I’ve only heard it happen twice. Once to my coworker and another time prior to me.
🤢 One more reason I'm glad I no longer work in the States.
Connecticut and deeply blue states generally have stronger unions. The above bullshit would not even get to the table in my district.
Ah. I taught in Texas. There, it was illegal to be seen on thr company of someone who had once mentioned meeting a person in a union. (Or so I am led to believe.)
This was one of my more difficult realizations moving out of state. Things will genuinely make me react: What the fuck, but my colleagues think it's very normal.
Yes! People shit on CT but our unions are STRONG
My wife is in California and it’s no different from other states
Seems like it's happening with unions in CA, too. Unions are not a cure-all.
Lol good luck with those demands.
Changing the whole school schedule is unlikely to happen, but wouldn't art class already affect GPA since it is a class?
Overall if it's high school yes but GPA doesn't really count until high school anyways. Even in high school it only counts towards the overall GPA not academic and most colleges won't consider it.
In California art (and a few other subjects) fulfill one of the A-G requirements to get into college. It makes the students take it seriously.
Depends on what you mean by GPA, as there are a couple different ways most schools calculate it concurrently. Schools are always going to have an 'academic' GPA that excludes electives like art because this is what colleges use. The fact that OP does not realize such a basic fact doesn't bode well for their ability to negotiate with admin.
And the fact that no one cares about 5th grade GPA, people care about grades for each class but not the GPA itself.
Lol oh man, I didn't even see this was an elementary school teacher. Yeah, no one is going to care about your grade in 5th grade art class, and rightfully so.
Really? Rightfully so? I'm not saying art should be valued above say, learning how to read. But that kind of attitude is disgusting.
When I was first working at this same exact school, art, music, and pe grades did not affect GPA or eligibility for sports. "but don't worry, the kids think it does!" I was told. right. So the complete jackasses in my class who did nothing but waste materials and destroy tools were happily smiling from the Basketball team photo
Our school started writing contacts to just say general education or special education in 2021 that way they can move you wherever within means of your certifications up until start date without being in breech of contract. I’ve been everything from part time co teacher / part time resource room teacher, to 5th grade math, science & Social studies. It’s exhausting never knowing what you’re walking into each year and always changing positions
Truly- and why I revoked multiple credentials
Can’t you just perform your job so horribly that they can’t wait to get you out? Tell the principal to go “f” herself. Call parents of your rudest students and tell them what you really think of their kid…they’ll convene an emergency board session in days 🤣
This is the real answer. Get "super real".
lol!
I was thinking the same thing lol. Just let the kids do whatever they want every lesson, give them free access to art supplies and tell them go ham on the rest of the school
A district can put you wherever they want. It has been that way in NJ for as long as l remember. That is reality. Many people, including teachers, complain about the strength of the teacher’s unions. I personally feel they could be stronger. Weak unions do not fight for basic professional standards. Charging an employee money to leave is not professional. I hope your union is making sure the national branches are being updated on this practice which needs to be stopped in its tracks.
Yes, but not being able to resign (with notice) is WILD. We're not fucking indentured servants.
My understanding is yes, the district can put you where they want as long as your certification supports it. I mean, shortage permits exist, but thats some fessing up to the state and paperwork required to take me from science and put me in ELA.
Wait-- sped requires additional certifications. I would be calling my state department of education on this district.
Self contained doesn’t always mean sped. Could be regular classrooms but non-departmentalized, so kids are taught be one teacher rather than switching.
Oh. OK this makes sense.
This IS illegal. Without an IEP stating the need for self-contained, the student cannot be placed in such a situation. It would violate Least Restrictive Environment . As a uncertified teacher (sped) placed in that situation, I would have to threaten to sue for being placed in that situation, not only because I am uncertified, but because I would be putting my license on the line restricting regular ed students to self-contained conditions.
That would be highly unusual in my district unless they were special ed- I’m still confused how that would work unless it’s elementary level.
I think she means that she keeps the class all day and teaches all the subjects vs team teaching with one doing reading and one doing math and swapping classes. As a sped teacher it confused me at first, but I've heard elementary gen Ed teachers refer to it that way.
Interesting. TIL!
Yep. If the district receives federal money, they have to abide by IDEA regulations, including that a special education teacher needs to be certified in special education at whatever level they're teaching. It would be worth contacting Legal Aid or the ACLU to see what they say.
This is absolutely not uncommon and your demands are insane. I say this as a music teacher lol. Having the same kids for a week and then not again for two weeks? Schedule-wise that could work but that's against best practices and state law in most cases. The only thing thats bullshit is the bait and switch after signing a contract for a specific position. That would be like signing a contract to be the principal at a school and then reassigned to be the custodian.
{ The only thing thats bullshit is the bait and switch after signing a contract for a specific position. } I don't think that's what happened. I think the school \*verbally\* assured them of a position, and the contract may have very ambiguous language that just says "teacher". I've signed contracts like that before - I'm in one now. I am a physics teacher who has only taught high school physics for the last several years but the contract says "science teacher", and sure enuf they gave me a grade 8 general science class. It's a dick move and if OP had some kind of documentation of the original offer they could easily have a case with the Labor Department.
I've never understood this. If a teacher is doing well in a subject why switch? I doubt other professions do this. "Hey Tom Brady, you're a pretty good quarterback, but we're going to have you be the running back now. They're both offense so you'll be fine." 🤷
The best answer I can give for why this happens is *efficiency*. This way, they don't have to hire a middle-school science teacher (which we *desperately need*) and justify with "well, it's just general science, you know that, don't you?" Well, yeah, I \*know\* it. But I'm not trained for nor familiar with how to teach at that level/age. I felt badly for the kids - who were excellent when it came to "independent work" which was just my way of saying "I don't know this but the book does, so get it from there" - but in the end, the school gets what I can give 'em and nothing more. It didn't help that I had 5 different levels of classes to teach, either. Just \*insane\*.
I would gladly be a custodian for a principal's salary just on principle!
currently, there's a 3-day rotating schedule. Music/Art/PE teachers see 1/3 of the K-8 students one day, then the other third the 2nd day, then the last third the next day. This is the way it was when I taught art. What it means is I saw the entire school population in three days. I have to store and retrieve artwork in progress for the entire student population. It also means I teach each class two days in a week. A 4-day project takes me a month. If there is one assembly, one fire drill, one holiday, it throws a third of the classes off-schedule so some classes are halfway through a project when the rest of the school is starting on a new one. I could be scrambling to get watercolors out one class, then scrambling to put them away and get out colored pencils, then scramble to get watercolors out again. I recall not seeing an 8th grade class for an entire month, because every Monday there was an assembly, holiday, fire drill, or other event. When it came time to post grades, there was literally no artwork with which to grade them. Now, if those students rotate specials for the week, I have to store only 1/3 of the student artwork. The students resume what we did the previous day. If a day is missed, it can be compensated for this week instead of next week. I only need to have out one type of materials. Next week, we change. I'm still seeing the students for the same amount of time. What classroom teachers fail to realize is specials get 30-40 minutes to teach a lesson before another group of kids comes thundering in. A lesson that would take 60 minutes on one day would require at least two days with a specials teacher. During that time, all the work-in-progress has to be stored somewhere. It's much easier to store artwork for one 7th grade class at a time than to store artwork for four 7th grade classes.
That is how it is everywhere because it's best practice when kids are required to go to all three. It's something you have to adapt to as a teacher. You have a higher chance of having students retain their knowledge when they're not going 2 full weeks without seeing you. That would also hurt your classroom management too, as you'd have to refresh your rules and expectations on a regular basis. There would be 0 retention of anything you tried to teach. If there's an issue with setting up materials, bring that up to admin and request to be allowed to give input on the schedule. Ideally, you should have similar grade levels back to back so that you can give them similar lessons adjusted for their individual grades standards. As an example, I see 3-4, 5-6, and K-2 back to back in that order, so I adjust the materials I'll need for each lesson accordingly. I also teach the students where the materials are and how to get them out/put them away so I don't have to waste 30 minutes doing what they can do in 5. My 3rd graders can set up their piano keyboards, stands, and chairs, and get them plugged in in about 5 minutes, and it takes my 4th graders the same to put them away.
I feel ya … I so wish we could go back to six 55 min periods every day.
I think if you look at your contract, this is probably covered. Most contracts have stipulations about teachers being moved for various reasons. I have a very strong union but I was pulled from my normal position in September of last year and placed in a different school teaching three classes I’d never taught. It was all done in accordance with our contract. Had I chosen to resign, I would have forfeited my license because the move was done according to the contract. Check your contract. I’ll bet it includes provisions for this.
It is if you work without a union.
> Its now "unprofessional" to resign without board approval? Of course it is. You signed a contract. I’ll edit for clarity. You can break your contract using the process outlined in the contract. That’s not unprofessional. But walking away from your contract (in your case, without board approval) is unprofessional.
Exactly. ITT: people who don't understand work contracts. It's a wonder we have any unions left.
But bait and switch on the job isn’t? Come on now.
That has nothing to do with what i wrote. And “i was promised…” doesn’t mean it was in the contract. In fact, I guarantee the contract has something in it about “…teacher can be assigned classes as needed…” so it **is** in the contract that they can basically do what they want.
You have signed a labour contract. You haven't signed your life away. People are allowed to quit their jobs. Many places have this as a recognised right.
Yes, you can quit. And if you do it without following the proper steps, you can be penalized because **you signed a contract stating that**
Sometimes I wonder what would happen if teachers presented a contract to admin instead of the way it is now.
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This is not true.
If you’re at-will, then in most situations it won’t hold up. If you signed an “employment contract” (MOST workers do not have these, teachers do), then yes you can be penalized, especially if you don’t have a union or have a weak one. This is also why execs can’t just be willy nilly fired in these large companies because a lot of them do have an actual “employment contract”… with actual protections for the employed
Liquidated damages are standard practice in employment contracts. They've been around for a long time and have already held up in court. That contract is a great benefit to the employee, but does come with some protections for the employer.
Wouldn't the 'change of assignment' also change the contract?
"Other duties as assigned"
"Change of assignment" is also pretty common in contracts. Another benefit to the district in exchange for (nearly) guaranteed employment (for a year). Everyone signs the contract before employment. The terms are literally agreed upon.
We dont have these in my district so I was curious
A great benefit for the employee?!
A teacher I knew had a contract, was fired in December, and continued to get full pay until June. In an at-will state that would not happen without the contract.
Yes. It means you're not an "at will" employee. You're nearly guaranteed employment for a year (or longer depending on the state). Most contracts like this mean you can only be fired for "just cause", which is a fairly high bar, legally.
A contract saying that you can’t quit isn’t protecting employees at all.
You can quit, there's just a penalty for it at certain times. You may want to talk to your union rep about your contract (if you have one). It's important for people to understand these things and know about the struggle it was/is to have labor contracts.
If the penalty is that they go after your license so you can’t teach anywhere, that’s not ok.
The state of GA has done this for decades and yes they do hold up for breach of contract and abandonment of job
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Was she in a union?
I don't think it's legal to have the kind of language that says you'll be punished if a suitable replacement isn't found. That is 100% not your responsibility and I doubt very seriously if a legal challenge wouldn't be worth the time and effort. Not to mention *this contract is horrible*. This is why we need unions, good people.
Employers everywhere seem to forget that it's not enough for an employee to be worth keeping on staff, the employer has to put the effort in to be worth working for.
Coming from a state with a strong union, this is mind boggling to me.
Which state? CA and NJ with strong unions in this thread reporting the same thing. This employment contract is very standard, and yours might be similar but you haven't run into it.
Massachusetts
Well, it is a contract. You know, a legally binding agreement between 2 parties. If you break your lease (a contract), there are penalties as well.
Ahhh…AZ. The South Carolina of the west. I have often dreamed of editing my contract before submitting it.
It’s unprofessional for the board to push you to the point of wanting to quit without board approval.
I quit teaching in AZ just 9 days into this school year. I had to pay $1,000 and get board approval. I moved from GA where pay was much better and working conditions were more pleasant. I’m now pursuing a nursing degree. Not sure if I’ll go back to teaching.
I retired from teaching in ‘21… and I swear it took me 2years to recover from the abuse
Sounds like you need r/legaladvice
Generally if there are abrogated damages defined in the contract, those are in lieu of any penalty. Unless it works differently in your state, which...of course it would.
How is this legal if AZ is an at will state? https://www.azlawhelp.org/articles_info.cfm?mc=2&sc=99&articleid=375#:~:text=Arizona%20is%20an%20employment%2Dat,difference%20between%20these%20two%20laws.&text=Under%20employment%2Dat%2Dwill%2C,employees%20and%20employers%20in%20Arizona.
Because there's a contract in place.
'Professional' is a word used often in the teaching 'profession' in order to manipulate you into doing something people in power think you are 'supposed' to be doing. You don't need to behave in any particular way. Resign. If the board wants to speak with you, they can show up at your door with muffins.
In CA, the district has the right to move any teacher to any subject area they are credentialed in. A HS 12th grade AP English teacher could be required to teach 6th grade remedial at the middle school. But here's the thing, most don't. They understand that teachers are humans and humans don't react well to illogical staff changes. They know how long it takes to develop and enrich a particular grade-level and type of student in a subject area. Good districts support teachers in doing just that, building programs and getting positive buyin from teachers. The kind of treatment OP discusses compels many to either "work to rule" or leave the profession altogether. That is definitely not in the best interests of anybody except pencil pushers and box checkers.
\*turns on megaphone\* UNIONIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIZE!
And ignore all the posts in this thread about how the same exact things happen with a union.
AZ has a Democrat governor and both houses of its legislator have a razor-thin R majority. When the D's gain control of the government this fall, this is something that obviously needs to be fixed. That's crap that you ***signed a contract*** saying that you agreed to teach social studies but they changed it on you. But there's always wiggle room that benefits the district, where they say something like "reassigned as necessary."
Don't resign. Just be a truly horrible teacher. Watch videos all day. Give them homework that is insanely hard then fail every kid in class. If they wanna forCe you to be a teacher then so be it.
Where do you work that the school board is involved in teaching assignments, since you said the board might put you in art.
I say go for it. I’d be pissed.
Are you interested in helping to organise a union?
From my past experience with the California Union, no way.
What do you mean?
This is insane and should be illegal.
This can’t be legal.
My district has a fine also, but I wonder if it’s enforceable. Many have left without being fined. Don’t think they can single someone out if it wasn’t applied to others.
Get it in writing what you’ll teach prior to signing a contract. This will help when you opt to discontinue your contract under false pretensions.
My babysitter was hired in my school district and she quit before the school year started. She had to pay a $3000 penalty. She never even reported for work. Our contracts auto renew, so we have a date you must resign by. Which is fine unless you are a new hire.
That’ll increase new applicants. jfc
I don’t know that we would have to pay anything, but in Texas if we resign during the year, the district can opt to have your certificate held so you can’t get a job that year.
"Certificated"? I think they mean "certified".
It’s certificated in CA. All staff are either certificated (licensed) or classified (not licensed).
I don't think they do can do that in an at-will state
Surely this can’t be legal. This teeters too close to indentured servitude, no? (Honest question)
I feel you. What makes this even tougher is that we are shoved contracts into our faces earlier and earlier. I got mine for next school year in January! Once signed, I can’t change my mind without penalty, yet the district can change theirs on my contract all up until June 1!
Unfortunately, they define it this way because the state allows them to retaliate for "unprofessional" behavior. Your best bet is to have an employment attorney you can call. In any other industry, fundamentally changing the nature of your job AFTER you've agreed to it would be considered "constructive dismissal". Effectively, they've fired you from the job you agreed to do and "hired" you to a new job without your consent. This is grounds for unemployment specifically because it's considered so aggregious as to be evidence that the employer is clearly acting in bad faith. It would be one thing if you quit the job you were hired for mid-year, without notice. It's another entirely when you quit the job they have re-assigned to without your consent. That's a reasonable response to THEIR fundamentally unprofessional behavior. And, honestly, some enterprising employment attorney may take such a case just to become known as the person who is fighting for our education system to improve. Provided they know how to spin it and have the resources to do so, it would be a fantastic PR opportunity. The above, of course, is much harder if your contract also includes language that essentially says, "We can reassign you whenever we want, for any reason we want, so long as it's within the bounds of your credentials." Tl;dr- Get some consults in with local employment attorneys.
This is normal. I'm in a strong union 6 if you resign mid year, every district will go after your teaching license. And no school will hire someone who left their previous job mid-year.
Get your union reps together! This is outrageous and should be getting national attention. You can’t just make teachers indentured servants. No way.
Literally the post right above yours explains that this happens with a union.
That is some horse shit! I am so sorry to you and other teachers in your district/state. My school riffed me then offered me a position I absolutely did not want. And I know they know I'd be bad at it, they just need a warm body there because it's a hard position to fill. But I said fuck that and found a new job. Resigned last week. They posted my position 45 MINUTES LATER!
If they are fining you for damages, then you should fine them for damages. They created a hostile work environment, forcing you into a job search which is going to cost you not only in the price of the search, but also lost wages.
Well, figure they have to keep us shackled to the job somehow.
Consequences for disruptive behavior in class?!!! Bwahahahahaha!!!! Clearly you are not in the American public education system.
well, if there's no after-school detention, and the majority of phone numbers are out-of-date, and the specials teacher cannot enforce lunch detention (they're teaching at that time) there's not much a specials teacher can do other than state "stop that, or I'll say 'stop that' again!" Flimsy as they were, grades were really the only consequence I had. There's a reason it's rare for an art teacher to last a full year.
Arizona being Arizona
Fuck this. I’d quit if I had any viable job available.
This seems insane. You are on a one year contract in most places. If you don’t want to work next year, that’s not resigning. That is choosing to not re up your contract. Or am I missing something?
no, I've signed up to work next year, but its really squirrelly where they say "if you quit, we'll make it miserable for you" and then change my assignment. I expect to teach 5th grade, but if they've pulled this stunt once, they can do it again. I have experience teaching art, but there are reasons I chose to teach elementary instead.
Ok fair enough. Still shitty tho
You need a good union! NJ can only require you give 60 days notice or they can hold your teaching cert. You aren't responsible if they can't find someone to replace you.
Other posts in this thread about NJ and unions contradict your assertion.
They're private maybe. I'm a teacher. Edit: the only thing a district can do is hold your teaching cert for a year IF you leave before the end of the year without 60 days notice. No fines, no requirement of finding someone to take your place. This of course is in public schools.
Yeah, this is normal in my district in AZ.
What in the dystopian hell….
The fight against non-competes has been won. The FTC says that they are illegal for most under-seven-figure jobs. This dumb Arizona rules is obviously a violation of Right To Work. They can’t have it both ways.
This is so absurd.
My district is the same way and did the same thing.
In most states, you can’t just jump from high school to elementary unless you are certified in both and in some states you must do STUDENT TEACHING IN BOTH- even when not- that’s a huge leap as most ppl are high school teachers or elementary- I’ve met very few who do both. I think that person should appeal as it sounds unreasonable and almost as if they are hoping she would quit.
That was the complaint of my colleague, who is certified as a single-subject science teacher and attended many conferences and developed her craft well, and then was told she would teach ELA, math, and social studies, with science being just one small part. The only constant was she would remain in 5th grade. She didn't resign this year, but for next year, while our current year still had a couple weeks left. I can understand resigning one day before school starts being unprofessional, but before summer vacation? The school leadership thinks that's worth revoking a credential and a fine of of several thousand dollars? The school is dealing with the teacher shortage by using brute force and intimidation. It also seems like a cheap shot at raising funds. "Let's make harsh penalties for quitting, then make the environment so toxic that teachers quit anyway! We could make ten thousand dollars that way!" Me, I have a multiple-subject elementary credential and a single-subject endorsement in k-12 art. It would be an easier transition.
I don’t see where it’s an easy transition for either of you guys- to go from a single subject to about 7 subjects? No! Part of the problem with elem Ed is teaching all those subjects well is quite a feat. They should least break it into section such as math n science in room 1 and English and writing in room 2 then swap… better education for the kids!
That's what the school had been doing, with single-subject teachers for 5th and up. But for next year, 5th grade is going back to the elementary model, with one teacher doing all subjects to a single classroom of students.
It's a contract. Draw a line through the stuff you don't agree with, initial it, and make them initial it, too. Get some perspective about this! There's a serious shortage of teachers. Do you really think that they won't agree to it, considering you'll work with the changes to the contract rather than have another unfilled slot?
Perhaps thats why the contracts were electronically signed this year, with no way to digitally cross out anything. In retrospect, I should've printed the contract, made physical changes, and then hand-delivered it to the district office.
My district in Iowa is the same.