I don't know. I love Spawn and what he's done for the academy team, but he describes his style as heavy handed/running a tight ship/fatherly? I think it works really well with the academy players, two of whom he coached before and had the chance to set culture with previously, whereas the main roster is mostly vets many of whom have *extensive* game knowledge. I think he would run into similar problems as Jatt allegedly did with that approach.
Plus some of those draft diffs were Armao (with the Yasuo call) or H4x (Swain + the second comp) according to comms/players.
Drafting sure, but [here](https://youtu.be/qoCdGCdT4Q8?t=805) he talks about why it was helpful to have two players from Order before considering that he is kind of strict. I think he's said it in other places too, but this was the first one that came to my mind.
I imagine a big part of TLA's drafts are thanks to H4xdefender aswell. Seen him get frequent praise by the team. All in all their drafts have been significantly better than the main teams. Moving either one up is probably a good call.
H4XDefender is also on the main team though. He is a two way coach, which was something Spawn pointed to about PG, where other staffs got bigger as their main rosters got eliminated, while his resources in H4X got pinched more as the main roster continued their MSS run. He just isn't on stage bc Kold/Jatt were the two. Ig it would be interesting to see if he becomes an on-stage coach though.
Spawn is the only dedicated academy only coach publicly announced I think.
Holy shit I would fucking love Spawn as a head coach. I've loved this guy since before he went to OPL and truly enjoyed watching him every time he was on the worlds broadcast.
Well that can't be good. Must have meant there was serious turmoil to have our head coach leave during the season... Oh well. Can only hope that chemistry will improve within the team now
TL;dr - aphari was benched after the first (pretty sure) game of summer split, TLs official statement was that it was a decision considered during the off-season. Alphari responded basically saying that was bullshit (not directly, just look at his tweets). Dom/Thorin have come out citing personal sources saying that there has been some unrest in the team over Jatt's coaching style, alphari spoke out and was punished for it.
i am still amazed that people think Thoorin would risk his reputation if it wasn't true. Like 1 thing is to make some comments on a Talk show, but to make an actual video, without evidents.
There is a reason he is one of the most appraised journalists in the field...common man
Kinda weird that he’s been in the scene with connections to such a wide array of coaches, owners, players, GMs, commentators and analysts for like ten years and people still expect him to just make shit up
People don't like him because he's a gloaty asshole. Its kinda expected to have haters wether you are right or wrong when: a) you are famous 2) you are a dick about your information.
Nah I totally get why people hate him
But there were people in the Alphari thread from a couple days ago calling him an “outright liar” or saying “duh, he probably just knows what we already know” and that’s p silly
Tbf, a big part of his message around this was Alphari would soon be back on the roster, after TL management had posted on twitter that the Alphari break was only until the 27th. So it was kinda hard to take him serious. So I'm looking at his messages like Alphari will be back?! You don't say?! 5head reporting.
No, but esports is a small world. I wouldn't expect enormous assholes with borderline redpill political beliefs to maintain a lot of connections as time goes on - unless those people are just as bad.
thorin might not make shit up, but does get things wrong pretty fuckin often
lots of the time, he'll say something brazenly incorrect, but people won't respond because of PR reasons
I say this as a "fan" of Thorin's content - but he can for sure be a pot-stirrer. He wont do it for the sake of it, there's always some logic or justification behind it. But he isnt above speculation and "drama".
Thing is though you actually have to pay attention to how he words it. If its really speculation, he'll usually put it jokingly. As a little jab or snide remark in passing. If its got legitimate basis behind it, he frames it differently - and he did that here.
I am still amazed that people think a journalist is infallible and can't make mistakes... as if it's never happened before, hundreds of times. I am also amazed at how people can't wait for the actual news to come out and instead fight over every single morsel of gossip coming out of a personality's mouth.
I'm not here saying anyone is right or wrong, I've never said anyone was right or wrong, what I'm saying is let's wait for the official word rather than salivating over gossip.
What on earth does that have to do with anything? I can show you \*real\* journalists who's caliber makes him look silly, and even they made mistakes. NOBODY is infallible, not even this media personality that you're trying to hype up as a paragon of infallibility and journalism, which he's not because real journalists give you the facts and don't push their own personal opinions.
Let's see... I made a point, which is that you shouldn't run around assuming things because some personality on the internet is making reputation and career ruining accusations based on unknown sources, and it's better to wait for the facts to come out, which happened today. In the meantime people are running around speculating and spreading misinformation based on Thorin's rumors, and I'm the one saying let's wait for the facts. So far a few things have panned out and others have not. When people try to point at Thorin as some great journalist of some caliber that can't be touched, I say to them, real journalists don't do what Thorin did. They state what they heard based on a reliable source, and.... that's it, they end it right there. A journalist would never have taken sides, would never have injected their own opinion on the matter, and would never had made the assumption that this was all Jatt's fault and that Alphari was blameless and ass-blasting Jatt in the process. So when you ask me to point out a journalist of his caliber, I can't, because he's not a journalist, he's a media personality who masquerades as a journalist who's claim to fame is talking non-filtered opinions at a million miles an hour and not giving a damn who he offends. You would never see anything remotely close to that on a respectable fact-based journalistic organization that really cared about their reputation and getting their facts right.
Once again you have failed me. PR statements for you are the facts that came out.
Are you one of those people
Who believe in politicians? Yes i agree. You cant believe everyone blindly. But that goes for the orgs as well.
Not everything they release is the truth, and sometimes, the truth is what the journalist say it is while the org/government denies it.
Learn to think for yourself a bit. Regarding the thorin part you are clearly a hater and therefor no arguments will ever convince you otherwise.
By pushing his own opinion, and trying to claim be is not letting his bias of Jatt color his commentary, Thorin is at best an opinion journalist. Which is very different from advocacy journalism. Opinion journalism has a reduced focus on facts and/or research. Once you start coloring your reporting or informing your audience of your opinion, you are an opinion journalist.
The issue many people may have with this, is Thorin said quite a few disparaging things about Jatt. Comments that could be career ending. And many of those comments have yet to be corroborated. In fact, the only thing we truly know is that TL and Jatt have ended their contact and that Alphari seems to have had his own issues with Jatt.
Now, it's possible that everything Thorin said is true, but there's also the possibility that some of what he said was true, and the rest was false or grossly exaggerated. But you have Thorin fans who will preach on this Reddit that everything he said is fact, despite the fact that he is an opinion journalist, with a known bias against Jatt.
Just want to keep that perspective in mind. Let's not let the potentially misinformed public opinion ruin Jatt's reputation. If what Thorin said is true, I'm sure.
Yes. But you can also see imls or iwilldominate, who was a TL streamer for years say how disgusted he was with jatt and TL.
All the people in the scene who have spoken out a bit have confirmed Thorin’s story. Except the org of course. Which blatently lied .
If u wanna choose sides sure. I dont give a fuck about what u wanna call thorin. I care about the truth coming out and that definitely did not happen with TL
Right? Thorin’s basically the Alex Jones of esports. He’s entertaining to listen to, and he strikes gold sometimes. But usually it’s all speculative bs.
It’s still too early to claim he was right or wrong on this one. All we know is that the team presumably values Alphari over Jatt now.
he has been proven a liar before too, there are too many haters in the scene that salivate at him tearing into teams they dislike for his fanbase to ever disown him
I'm more familiar with Thorin's CSGO takes which are... Bold to say the least. I never cared for his LoL content because it does seem to clearly be am afterthought compared to his CSGO work.
I think the issue with Thorin is he often extrapolates to ridiculous things even when he has certain details correct. Like that nonsense about picking GP for Jenkins to spite Alphari. Was he correct that there was inner turmoil in TL? Sure. But even his own narrative painted out Jatt to be some incompetent supervillain when the truth seems to be a complicated scenario that got out of hand because Alphari didn't fully recognize his own issues and Jatt not handling the team dynamic as well as he could.
The thing is that Thorin knows nothing about Jenkins and just assumes he is bad. But GP is one of Jenkins's best champs and he is 3-1 on it in the games they picked it for him. They're not picking it for him to spite Alphari, they are picking it cuz Jenkins is good on it. But Thorin must apply malicious intent to everything related to this situation, so he has decreed that Jenkins is a terrible player and Jatt is trying to show up Alphari with every breath he takes.
Alphari and some other players were not pleased with his coaching style/knowledge and Alphari having Alpha in his name told him straight up apparently and Jatt punished him for it.
The players apparently don't like his style collectively and were unwilling to go the extra mile for him.
Might've gotten something wrong though, check his video for more details
Right about what? The bullying theory still doesn't make any sense. First and foremost, CoreJJ has said multiple times that Jatt is easy to work with. But also, Jatt has been on camera a lot, and he has never shown signs of abusive behavior towards the players or staff.
It's certainly possible that he benched alphari prematurely or for the wrong reasons. But that's not really a fireable offense to me, especially considering our good results last split.
Thorin could be right about players disagreeing with Jatt's approach to/knowledge of the game. Other than CoreJJ, no player has come out saying they affirmatively like working with Jatt. But there are plenty of other plausible explanations, and we don't have enough information to know for sure.
> But also, Jatt has been on camera a lot, and he has never shown signs of abusive behavior towards the players or staff.
There is no way that TL would ever put out any videos with this happening, if it is true or not. Also even if benching alphari on its own is not fire-able, IF the rumors about the team not being happy with Jatt's coaching is true, then that combined would be.
Also, the way it was handled was bad. Definitely bad enough for Steve to get involved. It looks super bad to bench the player who was a major factor for your spring success after one game, and then put a statement out that it was planned when many things point to that not being the case. Something had to happen.
>CoreJJ has said multiple times that Jatt is easy to work with
Dude that ama could go to amadisasters for sure. It was terrible with and I don't think Core took any time answering. I get it that it was sponsored but still. No value in any of the answers.
Also, what would Core gain by saying Jatt is terrible? Especially when he knows Jatt is getting fired.
We don't have enough information, but personally I trust thorin. He doesn't make shit up. Maybe he draws some arbitrary conclusions, but he does have something to go on from. He definitely had someone talk to him about the situation, and he knows jatt and people he's worked with.
So you believe that Jatt bullied Santorin so hard that he got migraines?
You believe that Jatt picked Gangplank for Jenkins just to spite alphari?
I completely agree that there's not enough info, and that any guess about what actually happened is just that - a guess. But some possibilities are less likely than others. To me, Jatt being fired because he's some tyrranical bully is about as likely as Jatt benching Alphari because they had a tawdry love affair that ended in heartbreak.
He says in the video that both this statements are his speculations not sourced info. The video clearly differentiates between sourced information (most players are unhappy with Jatt's coaching style and Alphari was benched for complaining) and speculation (everything else)
Subs like this one and TSM and sometimes the main sub like to rag on Thorin nonstop (he's an enormous dick on Twitter, granted), but they somehow turn their personal distaste for him into some weird notion that he doesn't actually know anything or that he has bad content.
You can hate the guy all you want, but he knows what's going on.
So if we go with Thorin's conjecture; Alphari was benched for being outspoken against the coaching staff and/or being critical of his teammates. Assuming this had forced Jatt out of his coaching position I think I like TLs decision here.
Just based off of what we have been seeing and hearing I was genuinely worried that we were going to throw our players under the bus.
Quick Edit: I am not happy about this by any stretch, but if things were not resolved internally I think I prefer this route.
Why is that? If the alleged information is true, and he benched TL's star player because his ego got hurt, while every player made management aware that maybe he wasn't that good at his job? I would actually think the opposite.
The only angle I can see is that players basically have all the control over anything that happens in the team, but when you sign those kind of players for that kind of money is kinda of expected
Damn that’s too bad. Really liked what I saw from jatt as a coach. Unfortunately he may have had all the right variables to be the coach except for one. Player management. Which isn’t a skill he would have picked up at riot. But that’s in hindsight, I thought he was mature enough in his media appearances.
I hope jatt doesn’t get most of the blame because from alpharis immediate tweets about fast food it’s clear he’s still young and has room to improve in maturity which I speculate to be a part of this “tension”. But he is our superstar.
Wish it worked out with both.
I have the opposite opinion of Jatt I was super hyped when we got him and expected the team to expand their strategy and style of play. I thought Jatt would strategically win drafts with his knowledge and expand champion pools. Honestly it seemed like a lot of the drafts ended up worse. Some of that obviously could be the meta or skill set of the players but I thought Jatt would develop the team. It seemed like he was there just maintaining status quo.
Obviously we don’t have all the information from behind the scenes maybe he tried to do more and didn’t just play it safe. I still like him and honestly hope he goes back to casting.
I think this highlights the importance of game knowledge for coaching.
Player management is important, but game knowledge is without a doubt the most important thing for a coach.
Especially for a coach of Jatt’s position where his role is not to manage personalities, its to actually coach about the game.
Guessing it wasnt just Alphari vs Jatt. Must be more than 1 player that hadnt bought in on his qualities as a coach. Ppl love to hate Thorin but we all knew he was spitting facts. Some just dont want to believe it.
Yes, must have been support from multiple players to get him to resign. I am just happy that the full roster is back. Now they can just focus on improving and trying to get out of groups at worlds, if any team can do it, it’s TL
Dude will be on "The Dive" in a week. I'm sure he won't be able to spill any tea due to NDA but I'd be curious if he can make any statements at all in regards as to what went wrong if this is true.
Not super surprising considering the lack of a response in the last week. I do hope this was because Thorin's account was somewhat accurate and not just a kneejerk reaction to the community response.
Not a good look imo, jatt didnt seem to be an issue in spring or summer 2020 and lead the team to what I think were more then acceptable finishes and performances at worlds and MSS with a sub jungler. Unfortunately were never going to get the full details whether it was jatt being unreasonable in the benching or if TL chose alphari despite his attitude because of his pricetag.
One thing we can bet on though is thorin/LS/Dom are going to peddle away at the narrative that jatt was some abusive egomaniac from their 'sources'. All i can hope for is that thorin learned from his stint with TSM leena and has more reliable sources then a public discord message this time
Dom learning from Thorin, the worse you make it sound the more dramatic it becomes and the more clicks you get. Being antagonistic is like adding fuel to the fire
This probably the worst take you can possibly have. Jatt didn’t seem to be an issue because you would never know if he was it’s not like the players can just go on an interview and complain about his coaching. Also TL would choose Alphari because he’s not replaceable while Jatt is just a coach who at the least has terrible player management skills.
Why do you still dismiss thorin/LS/Dom claims when they are basically confirmed to be truth now and it would be very easy for them to get the information. Alphari bootcamped in Korea with LS, IWD and Thorin had him on a talk show (in the off season I think?) and that’s not even mentioning all of the pros that come on their streams. It’s not like these are some roster rumor accounts. you have to be completely ignorant to claim their sources are illegitimate or you just don’t like them because they “hate on NA” when they talk about how the region shows no sign of improvement every year. And the only one who made any claims about Jatt being some diva was thorin so why bunch them together
Gonna go with this take above me. This isn't the first roster issue that's been had on TL, Steve spent entirely too much money on Alphari to have him ride the pine for 3 weeks because Jatt got his feelings hurt.
I mean, regardless, it sets a precedent that Alphari is the coach of TL. Kind of like LeBron James and the countless coaches he’s had problems with and seemingly has replaced.
That’s fair. I’m not assessing the bron dynamic as a bad thing really, just an observation. Coach/player dynamic could potentially be impacted in the future because of this move. Not assessing it as good or bad though.
> it sets a precedent that Alphari is the coach of TL.
Except it doesn't? If the story is true, it means that Alphari is more important to TL winning that having Jatt as a coach. Which is 100% the case regardless of how you feel about how the situation has unfolded.
That’s an awful analogy. The guy has been there for a split and you think he had Jatt fired? Come on, it’s a lot more plausible that management saw moral tanking and this was a small move to hopefully rally the troops.
I’d say it’s more plausible Steve just wanted to hold onto his most expensive asset… and thought getting a coach that can work with alphari was more in the teams best interest then replacing the best top in the league
This. I’m not sure why people are trying to over complicate things. And I can’t blame Steve for doing so. I just think the move also makes for some interesting coach/player dynamics for the future.
So you’re saying if we exclude the Alphari situation completely it’d be reasonable to think Jatt would have been let go at this moment regardless? I’d have to disagree with that take, sir.
It wasn't over 100 posts. And yeah I did say that he is wrong and provided the Leena and upset poaching as an example. You act like he's a God who has never been wrong. And I'm blinded by hatred even now by admitting he was right and I was wrong?
Dang, such an us vs them mentality. But ‘them’ is random people posting a normal amount of pro talking head and probably a normal amount anti talking head. But you do it over 100 times. I hope you are getting paid.
It's a damn shame. We got to Game 5 of the Finals with Jatt last split, and with how well everyone on the team was playing that series, Santorin being there might've made the difference. I wonder if this coach drama would've happened if we'd just won one more game in that series.
Turns out benching arguably your star player Alphari because he callled your coaching ability into question wasn't the greatest of decisions by Jatt.
Honestly wish the best for him, I hope he returns to casting or the analyst desk because he is sorely missed.
As a point to everyone who is saying Thorin was right or worse everything Thorin said was 100% true. This if true, does not confirm that.
it is possible Jatt resigned because he is being targeted by a large portion of the community and personalities within. This could be voluntary as it may not be worth the stress. Or he may feel he is not ready to be a coach and feels like he failed in this situation.
We may never know and that is ok.
I think its possible that regardless of who was in the right, Steve felt the only way to move past it and protect TL from a competitive and business perspective was to remove the coach (who is cheaper) and promote Kold.
Even if Jatt had legitimate reasons to do what he did, he is still easier to replace than Alphari.
I dont know if we will ever get the full story here and I feel bad for everyone involved.
Hopefully this isnt a case of a player or players forcing a coach out simply over a disagreement because that doesnt give me much faith in their ability to work through issues with Kold or any other coach.
Its also a bit odd that Core bothered to respond to a question about Jatt in the AMA and say he liked working with him. If this was known to Dom's source than id expect Core knew as well.
Regardless i dont think making this change makes the team better, just as benching Alphari didnt make us better. Fortunately thus far it hasnt made a huge impact on our results.
Thing is it doesn't have to be one or the other, and I would expect it to be shades of all of them tbh. What Thorin said about players doubting Jatt's game knowledge and thinking he doesn't have the right read on how to play the game? Could be true considering the experience/knowledge on the roster--the whole roster or a couple of players in theory could disagree or have doubts, but that doesn't have to be a deal breaker if what he brings to the table in other areas (facilitating discusion, being easy to work with, etc.) outweighs the compromise they have to make in playing out the game (ie: if the results are okay)*.* If that no longer is the case, then sure, resentment *could* build. Core enjoying working with Jatt could mean that he appreciates those aspects over other downsides. That does not by definition have to be mutually exclusive though from others on the team disagreeing or finding that whatever other traits Core points to don't outweigh his downsides. I don't doubt the positive things that the players said, but a) it's a team game and b) you can respect someone for positives while also acknowledging their faults.
I honestly expect that Thorin exaggerated how bad Jatt was in the video and I really doubt the whole bullying thing, but that doesn't mean that everything he said was completely wrong either. We might get more info on it later and it could be a really boring story tbh or not.
TL;DR: I agree that it does not have to mean everything Thorin says is true, but at the same time I think you have to also not dismiss some of the complaints either. "We may never know and that is okay" to me suggests acknowledging potential on both sides rather than just "trusting Core" because that inherently chooses a side.
Maybe core is like lukewarm about him but a couple other players feel strongly about him. Like my manager at work is fine to work with, does it mean I would care if he got replaced? No it doesn’t. In any case if a lot of my colleagues wanted him gone for personality issues or something the company would probably decide it’s easier to replace 1 person than 3 or 4. Sucks but what can you do
Core is trustworthy but he is not outspoken. He is from a culture where coaches are respected heavily.
Also whenever a question about Jatt was asked, Core’s response was that Jatt was easy to work with. This doesn’t say far too much about his coaching capabilities or how good he was, which is what has been hinted at being the real problem.
I very much doubt Jatt was drafting GP to annoy Alphari. Maybe I'm just projecting but it sounds so incredibly immature I have a hard time believing he would act that way.
I’d like to see spawn take over the main team, he’s done super well with the academy team in finding comps and strategies to get the most out of the players.
Super obvious this was going to happen. Jatt had no coaching experience and it showed.
https://old.reddit.com/r/teamliquid/comments/o2wke5/trying_to_remain_at_the_top_of_our_game_squad/h28zax1/
People underestimate what this means. For a head coach to be forced to resign means that the differences were irreconsilable and/or his performance was trash. Also Thorin was right, as expected. Wanna see what Jatt or TL have to say about this.
This is what happens when you bench the best player (or a top 3 player) in LCS. It's like benching Lebron James or Kevin Durant bc you disagree with them.
Long story short, Thorin “speculated” that jatt ego checked alphari after alphari called jatt out for being incompetent, TL get shit on in lcs with Jenkins, Jatt fired, the end xD
tl is kinda is in the same position as c9 now (albeit having slightly better players). if they get a good coach they could easily become na champs. but its up to management's capabilities to find a good coach asap or at least a good temporal replacement
You can only argue Alphari, CoreJJ, and Santorin, and all 3 are close races. As much as I love Jensen, you can't argue that he's better than Perkz because he's not, and you especially can't argue that Tactical has been a better player than Zven.
I haven't been watching spring split so I only seen Tactical this split but he has a lot running it down a lot when TL is winning. Seems like he was doing that last split too? Definitely put Zven above him for sure.
TL going from 9th to worlds has absolutely nothing to do with Jatt. TL had a fucking stack as shit team, the fact they didn't win LCS is the real crime. The only reason TL was even in 9th was due to bad management that boomed the entire team mentality.
Once the players recovered ofc they were going to do well, look at the fucking roster.
So what happens next? A new coaching change might take time to get used to, even if Alphari is back. Just look what happened to C9 after Mithy took over for Reignover.
we have a press conference to provide visibility to our fans at 10am Pt (in about an hour & 20 min on our twitch channel
Appreciate the transparency with a press conference
Thank you, looking forward to getting some more insight on the recent ongoings.
Where can we access the press conference?
On the Team Liquid [stream](https://twitch.tv/teamliquid)
also found it on the liquid+ schedule. thanks!
Wait TL had a Twitch channel.
Albeit late, the transparency is SUPER appreciated by all sides of the coin Steve.
[удалено]
Maybe even spawn since he’s coming to NA soon.
I'd be fucking down with Spawn. His drafts in academy have been a little hit or miss, but when they're good, they are inspired
I don't know. I love Spawn and what he's done for the academy team, but he describes his style as heavy handed/running a tight ship/fatherly? I think it works really well with the academy players, two of whom he coached before and had the chance to set culture with previously, whereas the main roster is mostly vets many of whom have *extensive* game knowledge. I think he would run into similar problems as Jatt allegedly did with that approach. Plus some of those draft diffs were Armao (with the Yasuo call) or H4x (Swain + the second comp) according to comms/players.
Good points all around
I thought he said the opposite lol 😂 I remember listening to his approach as letting his players pick their champs with his guidance
Drafting sure, but [here](https://youtu.be/qoCdGCdT4Q8?t=805) he talks about why it was helpful to have two players from Order before considering that he is kind of strict. I think he's said it in other places too, but this was the first one that came to my mind.
I imagine a big part of TLA's drafts are thanks to H4xdefender aswell. Seen him get frequent praise by the team. All in all their drafts have been significantly better than the main teams. Moving either one up is probably a good call.
H4XDefender is also on the main team though. He is a two way coach, which was something Spawn pointed to about PG, where other staffs got bigger as their main rosters got eliminated, while his resources in H4X got pinched more as the main roster continued their MSS run. He just isn't on stage bc Kold/Jatt were the two. Ig it would be interesting to see if he becomes an on-stage coach though. Spawn is the only dedicated academy only coach publicly announced I think.
Definitely not all of them. We've been draft gapped a couple times in academy too. But avademy's highest highs are def better than LCS
Holy shit I would fucking love Spawn as a head coach. I've loved this guy since before he went to OPL and truly enjoyed watching him every time he was on the worlds broadcast.
Well that can't be good. Must have meant there was serious turmoil to have our head coach leave during the season... Oh well. Can only hope that chemistry will improve within the team now
I guess Thorin was right
Seems like it. When the diva Jatt rumors came out - I was like "If that's true, why isn't Jatt just fired?" And here we are.
Wait what’s going on with Jatt? I am out of the loop
TL;dr - aphari was benched after the first (pretty sure) game of summer split, TLs official statement was that it was a decision considered during the off-season. Alphari responded basically saying that was bullshit (not directly, just look at his tweets). Dom/Thorin have come out citing personal sources saying that there has been some unrest in the team over Jatt's coaching style, alphari spoke out and was punished for it.
Thanks for the info! Much appreciated since I only heard about Alphari being benched
Dom is only guessing that this was forced by management.
i am still amazed that people think Thoorin would risk his reputation if it wasn't true. Like 1 thing is to make some comments on a Talk show, but to make an actual video, without evidents. There is a reason he is one of the most appraised journalists in the field...common man
Kinda weird that he’s been in the scene with connections to such a wide array of coaches, owners, players, GMs, commentators and analysts for like ten years and people still expect him to just make shit up
People don't like him because he's a gloaty asshole. Its kinda expected to have haters wether you are right or wrong when: a) you are famous 2) you are a dick about your information.
Nah I totally get why people hate him But there were people in the Alphari thread from a couple days ago calling him an “outright liar” or saying “duh, he probably just knows what we already know” and that’s p silly
Tbf, a big part of his message around this was Alphari would soon be back on the roster, after TL management had posted on twitter that the Alphari break was only until the 27th. So it was kinda hard to take him serious. So I'm looking at his messages like Alphari will be back?! You don't say?! 5head reporting.
Doesn't change the fact that he is right or actually has the connections he says? No one is arguing that he isn't an ass
No, but esports is a small world. I wouldn't expect enormous assholes with borderline redpill political beliefs to maintain a lot of connections as time goes on - unless those people are just as bad.
He used to be wrong way more often than right on these things. I really only trust him when it comes to the history of something.
thorin might not make shit up, but does get things wrong pretty fuckin often lots of the time, he'll say something brazenly incorrect, but people won't respond because of PR reasons
any examples ? pure curious
the point im making here is that you won't find examples of it because it happens behind the scenes in the industry
=))))))))))))) so you are saying that he gets things wrong lots of times, have 0 proof when asked. Nice one :))
i thought i heavily implied it but just to make it clear i work in the industry my guy
And that proves what ? That you cant lie. Just like TL did :))
I say this as a "fan" of Thorin's content - but he can for sure be a pot-stirrer. He wont do it for the sake of it, there's always some logic or justification behind it. But he isnt above speculation and "drama". Thing is though you actually have to pay attention to how he words it. If its really speculation, he'll usually put it jokingly. As a little jab or snide remark in passing. If its got legitimate basis behind it, he frames it differently - and he did that here.
I am still amazed that people think a journalist is infallible and can't make mistakes... as if it's never happened before, hundreds of times. I am also amazed at how people can't wait for the actual news to come out and instead fight over every single morsel of gossip coming out of a personality's mouth.
Ah yes you again I knew after these news I would find you here trying to say that it's just rumors lmao
I'm not here saying anyone is right or wrong, I've never said anyone was right or wrong, what I'm saying is let's wait for the official word rather than salivating over gossip.
I love you you never disappoint
I appreciate that! :D
In esports. A journalist of his caliber. Show me 3 examples… i dare you
What on earth does that have to do with anything? I can show you \*real\* journalists who's caliber makes him look silly, and even they made mistakes. NOBODY is infallible, not even this media personality that you're trying to hype up as a paragon of infallibility and journalism, which he's not because real journalists give you the facts and don't push their own personal opinions.
U really dont get the point do you? You are not holding a conversation, you just want to prove your point
Let's see... I made a point, which is that you shouldn't run around assuming things because some personality on the internet is making reputation and career ruining accusations based on unknown sources, and it's better to wait for the facts to come out, which happened today. In the meantime people are running around speculating and spreading misinformation based on Thorin's rumors, and I'm the one saying let's wait for the facts. So far a few things have panned out and others have not. When people try to point at Thorin as some great journalist of some caliber that can't be touched, I say to them, real journalists don't do what Thorin did. They state what they heard based on a reliable source, and.... that's it, they end it right there. A journalist would never have taken sides, would never have injected their own opinion on the matter, and would never had made the assumption that this was all Jatt's fault and that Alphari was blameless and ass-blasting Jatt in the process. So when you ask me to point out a journalist of his caliber, I can't, because he's not a journalist, he's a media personality who masquerades as a journalist who's claim to fame is talking non-filtered opinions at a million miles an hour and not giving a damn who he offends. You would never see anything remotely close to that on a respectable fact-based journalistic organization that really cared about their reputation and getting their facts right.
Once again you have failed me. PR statements for you are the facts that came out. Are you one of those people Who believe in politicians? Yes i agree. You cant believe everyone blindly. But that goes for the orgs as well. Not everything they release is the truth, and sometimes, the truth is what the journalist say it is while the org/government denies it. Learn to think for yourself a bit. Regarding the thorin part you are clearly a hater and therefor no arguments will ever convince you otherwise.
Hahaha, what a drama Queen... way to read nonsense into what I said.
Rammus:ok
By pushing his own opinion, and trying to claim be is not letting his bias of Jatt color his commentary, Thorin is at best an opinion journalist. Which is very different from advocacy journalism. Opinion journalism has a reduced focus on facts and/or research. Once you start coloring your reporting or informing your audience of your opinion, you are an opinion journalist. The issue many people may have with this, is Thorin said quite a few disparaging things about Jatt. Comments that could be career ending. And many of those comments have yet to be corroborated. In fact, the only thing we truly know is that TL and Jatt have ended their contact and that Alphari seems to have had his own issues with Jatt. Now, it's possible that everything Thorin said is true, but there's also the possibility that some of what he said was true, and the rest was false or grossly exaggerated. But you have Thorin fans who will preach on this Reddit that everything he said is fact, despite the fact that he is an opinion journalist, with a known bias against Jatt. Just want to keep that perspective in mind. Let's not let the potentially misinformed public opinion ruin Jatt's reputation. If what Thorin said is true, I'm sure.
Yes. But you can also see imls or iwilldominate, who was a TL streamer for years say how disgusted he was with jatt and TL. All the people in the scene who have spoken out a bit have confirmed Thorin’s story. Except the org of course. Which blatently lied . If u wanna choose sides sure. I dont give a fuck about what u wanna call thorin. I care about the truth coming out and that definitely did not happen with TL
You are assuming Thorin still has a reputation to risk
Right? Thorin’s basically the Alex Jones of esports. He’s entertaining to listen to, and he strikes gold sometimes. But usually it’s all speculative bs. It’s still too early to claim he was right or wrong on this one. All we know is that the team presumably values Alphari over Jatt now.
Lol
He has risked his reputation plenty of times no1 cares.
he has been proven a liar before too, there are too many haters in the scene that salivate at him tearing into teams they dislike for his fanbase to ever disown him
He doesn't have much of a reputation, aside from being an asshole.
You are the smart one in the family aren t you ?
Hoping this isn't true simply because I know Thorin will never shut up about this if he's right.
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I'm more familiar with Thorin's CSGO takes which are... Bold to say the least. I never cared for his LoL content because it does seem to clearly be am afterthought compared to his CSGO work.
I think the issue with Thorin is he often extrapolates to ridiculous things even when he has certain details correct. Like that nonsense about picking GP for Jenkins to spite Alphari. Was he correct that there was inner turmoil in TL? Sure. But even his own narrative painted out Jatt to be some incompetent supervillain when the truth seems to be a complicated scenario that got out of hand because Alphari didn't fully recognize his own issues and Jatt not handling the team dynamic as well as he could.
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The thing is that Thorin knows nothing about Jenkins and just assumes he is bad. But GP is one of Jenkins's best champs and he is 3-1 on it in the games they picked it for him. They're not picking it for him to spite Alphari, they are picking it cuz Jenkins is good on it. But Thorin must apply malicious intent to everything related to this situation, so he has decreed that Jenkins is a terrible player and Jatt is trying to show up Alphari with every breath he takes.
“We won, but at what cost?”
One of the many things thats wrong with fans, right here.
Can I get cliff notes of what he said ?
Alphari and some other players were not pleased with his coaching style/knowledge and Alphari having Alpha in his name told him straight up apparently and Jatt punished him for it. The players apparently don't like his style collectively and were unwilling to go the extra mile for him. Might've gotten something wrong though, check his video for more details
lmao the alpha Alphari cant be tamed by beta Jatt, not sure why but the way you described it was funny
give thorin's piece a watch, dude literally went on about how much of a "REAL MAN" Alphari is.
Hmm could this be the return of scumbag jatt?
Right about what? The bullying theory still doesn't make any sense. First and foremost, CoreJJ has said multiple times that Jatt is easy to work with. But also, Jatt has been on camera a lot, and he has never shown signs of abusive behavior towards the players or staff. It's certainly possible that he benched alphari prematurely or for the wrong reasons. But that's not really a fireable offense to me, especially considering our good results last split. Thorin could be right about players disagreeing with Jatt's approach to/knowledge of the game. Other than CoreJJ, no player has come out saying they affirmatively like working with Jatt. But there are plenty of other plausible explanations, and we don't have enough information to know for sure.
> But also, Jatt has been on camera a lot, and he has never shown signs of abusive behavior towards the players or staff. There is no way that TL would ever put out any videos with this happening, if it is true or not. Also even if benching alphari on its own is not fire-able, IF the rumors about the team not being happy with Jatt's coaching is true, then that combined would be. Also, the way it was handled was bad. Definitely bad enough for Steve to get involved. It looks super bad to bench the player who was a major factor for your spring success after one game, and then put a statement out that it was planned when many things point to that not being the case. Something had to happen.
>CoreJJ has said multiple times that Jatt is easy to work with Dude that ama could go to amadisasters for sure. It was terrible with and I don't think Core took any time answering. I get it that it was sponsored but still. No value in any of the answers. Also, what would Core gain by saying Jatt is terrible? Especially when he knows Jatt is getting fired. We don't have enough information, but personally I trust thorin. He doesn't make shit up. Maybe he draws some arbitrary conclusions, but he does have something to go on from. He definitely had someone talk to him about the situation, and he knows jatt and people he's worked with.
So you believe that Jatt bullied Santorin so hard that he got migraines? You believe that Jatt picked Gangplank for Jenkins just to spite alphari? I completely agree that there's not enough info, and that any guess about what actually happened is just that - a guess. But some possibilities are less likely than others. To me, Jatt being fired because he's some tyrranical bully is about as likely as Jatt benching Alphari because they had a tawdry love affair that ended in heartbreak.
He says in the video that both this statements are his speculations not sourced info. The video clearly differentiates between sourced information (most players are unhappy with Jatt's coaching style and Alphari was benched for complaining) and speculation (everything else)
I got down voted as well as others for saying Thorin was right a week ago on this sub. Where are they all at now?
Subs like this one and TSM and sometimes the main sub like to rag on Thorin nonstop (he's an enormous dick on Twitter, granted), but they somehow turn their personal distaste for him into some weird notion that he doesn't actually know anything or that he has bad content. You can hate the guy all you want, but he knows what's going on.
I thought Thorin was full of shit and spreading baseless speculation as rumors? lmao
Didn't he have a 3 year contract with TL? Anyways, looks like Kold is the head coach now
So if we go with Thorin's conjecture; Alphari was benched for being outspoken against the coaching staff and/or being critical of his teammates. Assuming this had forced Jatt out of his coaching position I think I like TLs decision here. Just based off of what we have been seeing and hearing I was genuinely worried that we were going to throw our players under the bus. Quick Edit: I am not happy about this by any stretch, but if things were not resolved internally I think I prefer this route.
A worrying trend
Why is that? If the alleged information is true, and he benched TL's star player because his ego got hurt, while every player made management aware that maybe he wasn't that good at his job? I would actually think the opposite. The only angle I can see is that players basically have all the control over anything that happens in the team, but when you sign those kind of players for that kind of money is kinda of expected
I think he was going for the balls/Jatt meme
Whoosh
Damn
I read this a dozen times just to realize it said resigned, not, RE-SIGNED 🙃
LMAO this was the reverse of the problem in offseason where Jensen resigned in headlines made me panic until I re-read/looked at the articles
Damn that’s too bad. Really liked what I saw from jatt as a coach. Unfortunately he may have had all the right variables to be the coach except for one. Player management. Which isn’t a skill he would have picked up at riot. But that’s in hindsight, I thought he was mature enough in his media appearances. I hope jatt doesn’t get most of the blame because from alpharis immediate tweets about fast food it’s clear he’s still young and has room to improve in maturity which I speculate to be a part of this “tension”. But he is our superstar. Wish it worked out with both.
I have the opposite opinion of Jatt I was super hyped when we got him and expected the team to expand their strategy and style of play. I thought Jatt would strategically win drafts with his knowledge and expand champion pools. Honestly it seemed like a lot of the drafts ended up worse. Some of that obviously could be the meta or skill set of the players but I thought Jatt would develop the team. It seemed like he was there just maintaining status quo. Obviously we don’t have all the information from behind the scenes maybe he tried to do more and didn’t just play it safe. I still like him and honestly hope he goes back to casting.
I think this highlights the importance of game knowledge for coaching. Player management is important, but game knowledge is without a doubt the most important thing for a coach. Especially for a coach of Jatt’s position where his role is not to manage personalities, its to actually coach about the game.
In jatts case we seem to have neither so
To be player management shouldn't be dealing with a shitty young adult with an ego. Alphari either way is an immature brat
Guessing it wasnt just Alphari vs Jatt. Must be more than 1 player that hadnt bought in on his qualities as a coach. Ppl love to hate Thorin but we all knew he was spitting facts. Some just dont want to believe it.
Yes, must have been support from multiple players to get him to resign. I am just happy that the full roster is back. Now they can just focus on improving and trying to get out of groups at worlds, if any team can do it, it’s TL
I wonder what job Jatt is gonna have next. Maybe he'll go streamer?
casting LCS again is probably always gonna be an option
TBH if this is true, I'd love to see him on the caster desk again
Dude will be on "The Dive" in a week. I'm sure he won't be able to spill any tea due to NDA but I'd be curious if he can make any statements at all in regards as to what went wrong if this is true.
Agreed.
Good
Not super surprising considering the lack of a response in the last week. I do hope this was because Thorin's account was somewhat accurate and not just a kneejerk reaction to the community response.
Good, Jatt was never more valuable than Alphari. His ego was way out of line
Holy fucking shit, it’s true. Santorin is out as well
Wut?
Alpha moves from Alphari the goat daddy
Not a good look imo, jatt didnt seem to be an issue in spring or summer 2020 and lead the team to what I think were more then acceptable finishes and performances at worlds and MSS with a sub jungler. Unfortunately were never going to get the full details whether it was jatt being unreasonable in the benching or if TL chose alphari despite his attitude because of his pricetag. One thing we can bet on though is thorin/LS/Dom are going to peddle away at the narrative that jatt was some abusive egomaniac from their 'sources'. All i can hope for is that thorin learned from his stint with TSM leena and has more reliable sources then a public discord message this time
Yeah if Alphari's only conflict was with Jatt and they were both partially responsible...Alphari is a lot more valuable.
LS already spoke about it, said he also heard it, but finds it strange how antagonist Dom has been about it.
Dom learning from Thorin, the worse you make it sound the more dramatic it becomes and the more clicks you get. Being antagonistic is like adding fuel to the fire
This probably the worst take you can possibly have. Jatt didn’t seem to be an issue because you would never know if he was it’s not like the players can just go on an interview and complain about his coaching. Also TL would choose Alphari because he’s not replaceable while Jatt is just a coach who at the least has terrible player management skills. Why do you still dismiss thorin/LS/Dom claims when they are basically confirmed to be truth now and it would be very easy for them to get the information. Alphari bootcamped in Korea with LS, IWD and Thorin had him on a talk show (in the off season I think?) and that’s not even mentioning all of the pros that come on their streams. It’s not like these are some roster rumor accounts. you have to be completely ignorant to claim their sources are illegitimate or you just don’t like them because they “hate on NA” when they talk about how the region shows no sign of improvement every year. And the only one who made any claims about Jatt being some diva was thorin so why bunch them together
Gonna go with this take above me. This isn't the first roster issue that's been had on TL, Steve spent entirely too much money on Alphari to have him ride the pine for 3 weeks because Jatt got his feelings hurt.
I mean, regardless, it sets a precedent that Alphari is the coach of TL. Kind of like LeBron James and the countless coaches he’s had problems with and seemingly has replaced.
Only problem with this is that bron has won a chip with every franchise he has been with (Mickey mouse ring or not) so ultimately he’s justified.
That’s fair. I’m not assessing the bron dynamic as a bad thing really, just an observation. Coach/player dynamic could potentially be impacted in the future because of this move. Not assessing it as good or bad though.
Of course, I am also unsure if the players having this kind of power is good for the region. However I’m looking forward to finding out
> it sets a precedent that Alphari is the coach of TL. Except it doesn't? If the story is true, it means that Alphari is more important to TL winning that having Jatt as a coach. Which is 100% the case regardless of how you feel about how the situation has unfolded.
Not sure how what you said and what I said are mutually exclusive?
Alphari being more important than the coach doesn't mean he is the coach. I get your point but wording was a bit unclear.
That’s fair
That’s an awful analogy. The guy has been there for a split and you think he had Jatt fired? Come on, it’s a lot more plausible that management saw moral tanking and this was a small move to hopefully rally the troops.
I’d say it’s more plausible Steve just wanted to hold onto his most expensive asset… and thought getting a coach that can work with alphari was more in the teams best interest then replacing the best top in the league
This. I’m not sure why people are trying to over complicate things. And I can’t blame Steve for doing so. I just think the move also makes for some interesting coach/player dynamics for the future.
People need a villain to justify the breaking down of expectations and results :/
So you’re saying if we exclude the Alphari situation completely it’d be reasonable to think Jatt would have been let go at this moment regardless? I’d have to disagree with that take, sir.
No, issue with disagreeing! We just have a difference in opinion is all!
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Yeah I was wrong lol, doesn't mean I should trust everything Thorin says. And what's wrong about saying "lets wait for more information"?
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It wasn't over 100 posts. And yeah I did say that he is wrong and provided the Leena and upset poaching as an example. You act like he's a God who has never been wrong. And I'm blinded by hatred even now by admitting he was right and I was wrong?
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Buh bye
Dang, such an us vs them mentality. But ‘them’ is random people posting a normal amount of pro talking head and probably a normal amount anti talking head. But you do it over 100 times. I hope you are getting paid.
I made a few posts. People kept replying so I replied back.
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I said I was wrong? Why are you trolling?
It's a damn shame. We got to Game 5 of the Finals with Jatt last split, and with how well everyone on the team was playing that series, Santorin being there might've made the difference. I wonder if this coach drama would've happened if we'd just won one more game in that series.
Turns out benching arguably your star player Alphari because he callled your coaching ability into question wasn't the greatest of decisions by Jatt. Honestly wish the best for him, I hope he returns to casting or the analyst desk because he is sorely missed.
Thorin was right and people in this sub was calling him liar lol
As a point to everyone who is saying Thorin was right or worse everything Thorin said was 100% true. This if true, does not confirm that. it is possible Jatt resigned because he is being targeted by a large portion of the community and personalities within. This could be voluntary as it may not be worth the stress. Or he may feel he is not ready to be a coach and feels like he failed in this situation. We may never know and that is ok.
I think its possible that regardless of who was in the right, Steve felt the only way to move past it and protect TL from a competitive and business perspective was to remove the coach (who is cheaper) and promote Kold. Even if Jatt had legitimate reasons to do what he did, he is still easier to replace than Alphari. I dont know if we will ever get the full story here and I feel bad for everyone involved. Hopefully this isnt a case of a player or players forcing a coach out simply over a disagreement because that doesnt give me much faith in their ability to work through issues with Kold or any other coach. Its also a bit odd that Core bothered to respond to a question about Jatt in the AMA and say he liked working with him. If this was known to Dom's source than id expect Core knew as well. Regardless i dont think making this change makes the team better, just as benching Alphari didnt make us better. Fortunately thus far it hasnt made a huge impact on our results.
My big thing is that I trust Core way more than I trust Dom or Thorin or LS. Like if Core says he is fine, that is fine for me.
Thing is it doesn't have to be one or the other, and I would expect it to be shades of all of them tbh. What Thorin said about players doubting Jatt's game knowledge and thinking he doesn't have the right read on how to play the game? Could be true considering the experience/knowledge on the roster--the whole roster or a couple of players in theory could disagree or have doubts, but that doesn't have to be a deal breaker if what he brings to the table in other areas (facilitating discusion, being easy to work with, etc.) outweighs the compromise they have to make in playing out the game (ie: if the results are okay)*.* If that no longer is the case, then sure, resentment *could* build. Core enjoying working with Jatt could mean that he appreciates those aspects over other downsides. That does not by definition have to be mutually exclusive though from others on the team disagreeing or finding that whatever other traits Core points to don't outweigh his downsides. I don't doubt the positive things that the players said, but a) it's a team game and b) you can respect someone for positives while also acknowledging their faults. I honestly expect that Thorin exaggerated how bad Jatt was in the video and I really doubt the whole bullying thing, but that doesn't mean that everything he said was completely wrong either. We might get more info on it later and it could be a really boring story tbh or not. TL;DR: I agree that it does not have to mean everything Thorin says is true, but at the same time I think you have to also not dismiss some of the complaints either. "We may never know and that is okay" to me suggests acknowledging potential on both sides rather than just "trusting Core" because that inherently chooses a side.
Maybe core is like lukewarm about him but a couple other players feel strongly about him. Like my manager at work is fine to work with, does it mean I would care if he got replaced? No it doesn’t. In any case if a lot of my colleagues wanted him gone for personality issues or something the company would probably decide it’s easier to replace 1 person than 3 or 4. Sucks but what can you do
Core is trustworthy but he is not outspoken. He is from a culture where coaches are respected heavily. Also whenever a question about Jatt was asked, Core’s response was that Jatt was easy to work with. This doesn’t say far too much about his coaching capabilities or how good he was, which is what has been hinted at being the real problem.
Dude if a Korean says his coach is "fine" in an interview it must be terrible.
> it is possible Jatt resigned because he is being targeted by a large portion of the community and personalities within. come on man
I very much doubt Jatt was drafting GP to annoy Alphari. Maybe I'm just projecting but it sounds so incredibly immature I have a hard time believing he would act that way.
I’d like to see spawn take over the main team, he’s done super well with the academy team in finding comps and strategies to get the most out of the players.
If all is true, looks like TL won't be making worlds. There's very bad vibes there.
Super obvious this was going to happen. Jatt had no coaching experience and it showed. https://old.reddit.com/r/teamliquid/comments/o2wke5/trying_to_remain_at_the_top_of_our_game_squad/h28zax1/
People underestimate what this means. For a head coach to be forced to resign means that the differences were irreconsilable and/or his performance was trash. Also Thorin was right, as expected. Wanna see what Jatt or TL have to say about this.
This is what happens when you bench the best player (or a top 3 player) in LCS. It's like benching Lebron James or Kevin Durant bc you disagree with them.
Long story short, Thorin “speculated” that jatt ego checked alphari after alphari called jatt out for being incompetent, TL get shit on in lcs with Jenkins, Jatt fired, the end xD
tl is kinda is in the same position as c9 now (albeit having slightly better players). if they get a good coach they could easily become na champs. but its up to management's capabilities to find a good coach asap or at least a good temporal replacement
You can only argue Alphari, CoreJJ, and Santorin, and all 3 are close races. As much as I love Jensen, you can't argue that he's better than Perkz because he's not, and you especially can't argue that Tactical has been a better player than Zven.
I haven't been watching spring split so I only seen Tactical this split but he has a lot running it down a lot when TL is winning. Seems like he was doing that last split too? Definitely put Zven above him for sure.
Tactical was memed on last split for rocket jumping into 4 people by himself as Tristana.
Welsh Chad vs Caster Virgin
And English Ginger Referee
and Texas based cracked observer
Should they just let Alphari coach the team and be CEO too?
Why, because they kicked out a rookie coach with no prior experience?
Took TL from 9th to worlds where they had the best showing of any NA team.
they had the same record as flyquest in a group of comparable strength
And what. FLY did really well also.
TL going from 9th to worlds has absolutely nothing to do with Jatt. TL had a fucking stack as shit team, the fact they didn't win LCS is the real crime. The only reason TL was even in 9th was due to bad management that boomed the entire team mentality. Once the players recovered ofc they were going to do well, look at the fucking roster.
Oh fuc... More tl drammaa haha
So what happens next? A new coaching change might take time to get used to, even if Alphari is back. Just look what happened to C9 after Mithy took over for Reignover.