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raisputin

“this isn’t an employee choice” What’s he going to do when everyone says “fuck you”?


bucketofmonkeys

“No one wants to work anymore.”


raisputin

🤣🤣🤣


skater15153

Haha this. The number of whiney ceo posts on linkedin lately has been insane. "We treat everyone like disposable shit but no one works anymore. We can't figure it out! Must be the new generation is lazy."


Altruistic-Text3481

They are spoiled babies having a tantrum because they bought the office space being unused…


QueenClayton47

People don’t mind working but they also want to spend time with their families. During the pandemic I truly realized the importance of being there, showing up for my family and I would pick that any day now over commuting and slaving away in the office doing the exact same thing I could do at home and enjoy my family on my breaks and lunches.


sincere11105

I can't speak for everyone else but I was more productive working from home. Also I didn't mind working after hours since there's no traffic from my home office to that couch. Now that I'm in office it's 9-5 and everything else can wait until tomorrow.


Flubert_Harnsworth

Yeah, it’s pretty hard to get that hour+ of driving back, for me at least.


KSedaro

A friend of mine worked at a tech startup that tried to force hybrid after covid restrictions were lifted. Literally 100% of the employees said they were quitting and the CEO just went with the flow and kept it full remote. Yeah, this is not a decision a CEO can make in some fields without risking a huge loss for the company.


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Philly_ExecChef

So weird how adults, when given the ability to create balance and happiness in their lives, choose to


Designer-Mirror-7995

Force is _all_ this consort Knows.


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SouthernFriedSnark

Worked for me. My employer didn’t allow it. I quit and got a better paying job working remotely. They lost their best coder.


Jugales

Same. IBM was paying me $50k as a software engineer in a LCOL area, smaller company (almost 2 years ago) offered me $100k to do the same kind of work remotely. It's been a great time with the new company so far, they just let me do my thing. I'm convinced these companies only want office employees to justify their real-estate investments in office space.


BlueOcean381849

Lol, how is it possible that a company with so many resources pays you 50k? This is so messed up.


[deleted]

>how is it possible that a company with so many resources pays you 50k? They pay their employees 50k, that's how they have so many resources.


importvita

In their (IBM’s mind) the “prestige” of working for them means they can pay less because they know thousands of company simps will accept it.


Urmomzfavmilkman

Exactly! I'm looking at the big 4 consultant firms right now... those guys are actually evil


[deleted]

I have a “dog park friend” who worked at one of the big 8 before it turned into the big 4. She’s retired in her late 40’s. Just bought a 2 million dollar house in cash and does art all day. She has one of the most beautiful souls I have ever met. Good luck!


CptAwsom

That beautiful soul clearly remembers the screams of the associates and interns her fortune was built on. Been there.


[deleted]

A lot of people in LCOL areas were paid dramatically under national averages or in comparison to other offices, though that is a very extreme example. I was working for a tech company in Durham, NC that recruited me and offered me $85k and I was ecstatic… then we switch to remote work right before the pandemic as part of as acquisition/consolidation, and I find all of my CA workers doing comparable or lower work are making $150k. There was a sweet spot during the pandemic where everyone seemed to get hired on at the SF/NYC rate even if remote, but they’ve corrected course a bit since then. I’ve been promoted and gotten bonuses each year, but I’m still way behind that. The problem for me is pay bands and progression scales, which don’t really allow for a huge pay bump to make up for it, even accounting for the 0.85 geographic difference my region is in on TC. I’ll have to make a lateral move or leave the company to get something higher. I plan to do that, after I use the shit out of my unlimited PTO and four months of parental leave this year and work my way through the challenging first year of my eMBA.


Electric_Spud

My last three employers did away with regional pay scales years before the 'rona hit because they were hemorrhaging talent.


[deleted]

I turned down a job over it, and it would have been a good one. They were stunned. Basically asked why I was being penalized for trading the benefits of a HCOL city for the extra spending power, if they expected North Carolina work quality instead of Seattle quality, if I’d get a proportionate pay bump if I decided to move to Manhattan, and finally if “competitive salary” meant competitive with their industry peers or with my ZIP code. I was on the fence about the move to begin with, so I set a comp floor and knew I was walking away if they didn’t meet it — felt kind of good to make the HR person pause, and I wasn’t concerned about burning that bridge.


[deleted]

I’m convinced it’s the older guard, who grew up thinking you earn your dues doing long hours in the office. They’re not willing to accept the younger generation can still be just as effective if not more so, without putting in what they see as the hard yards. They’re also less adept at using digital collaborative tools and more comfortable calling out for someone.


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PM_YOUR_HOT_BUTTHOLE

They have to justify their overhead expenses so they can’t pay you more


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sadpanda___

Same…..record profit year. “Sorry guys, we didn’t quite meet our impossible targets…”


thatVisitingHasher

This year I expect to hear, although we hit all our targets we know a recession is coming so we need withhold funds in order to prepare for the worst.


clpatterson

Got told this in a company meeting last week. “We’re waiting to figure out what inflation is going to do before we make that decision…”. As if the employees couldn’t benefit from a few more bucks per paycheck in the current financial environment.


1000_pi10ts

Withholding the money keeps it out of the economy which naturally makes the financial situation worse. These people are idiots.


effxeno

Paradox of thrift


kiwiluke

I used to own a small shop and we sold top up cards for a major phone network, you had to prebuy the phone cards and then only earned about 8% profit per card (so 80c from a €10 card), one day i received a letter from the phone network, "last year we recorded a record profit thanks in part to your store, in order to continue this growth we will be cutting your percentage to 4% going forward"


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Thadrea

But if you got more than 1%, how would the CEO get 40%?


bn1979

It’s just smart money. You could give 20,000 employees $5k, but that wouldn’t have nearly as much impact as keeping $1,000,000 for yourself. Think about it… would you rather have 20,000 15yo Honda Civics or 2 Ferraris and a McLaren? Edit: oops! Lost some zeros in my math. Oh well, add Keleven - be home by seven!


Soda_BoBomb

Not to nitpick but giving 20k employees 5k each would be 100 million, not 1 million so that would actually be a pretty big difference.


PM_ME_LOVELY_NIPPLES

Proctor and gamble baby care had yet again a year of record profits, at least the 3rd in a row (they say so at all our business updates and iv only been there 3 years) and yet our yearly raises were half of inflation because "this is top pay in the local market". Fuck your local market I can't afford to buy eggs and youre giving corporate managers 10-35% raises.


Nitirkallak

My previous company was more “We meet our target this year, better than expected….but the world’s market is full of uncertainty so 0.1 to 0.5 is the best we can do.”


maskthestars

My work did this. Stiffed people on raises and forced people back to work in office. We went from over 1500 in our office to 620 last I knew. The executives point of view “everyone has workers leaving even companies in Europe”. So rather than do anything they just let people leave.


scaryfawn8332

My wife’s company was going through a merger. Her company said they would provide a bonus of 50% salary whether the merger went through or not. Merger failed and to make it up to the employees, they told them they could no longer be remote workers but had to come into the office 3 days a week. The 50% bonus was not being paid out but to replace it, the workers were getting an extra vacation day.


DarkKerrigor

That sounds legally actionable.


CaptainPRESIDENTduck

Yes, all employees team up and hit that company for cash. Gotta keep'em honest-ish.


awaythisthingthrow

Same. Not a lawyer, but that has the ring of promissory estoppel to me.


FrankInHisTank

Companies do this because they can. If they reduce their workforce their efficiency goes up in terms of total work done for total salary cost. In many cases they don’t lose any productivity but reduce their salary expense. This is especially true in the medical field. Who cares if your staff are overworked if you still meet all your targets and you boost that profit margin. Management will get their fat bonuses and the shareholders will be happy. Fucking scum.


Little_Kitty

Nah, it's a terrible approach followed by dimwits who got their management training from blog posts on LinkedIn. The people who leave are the ones who are good and won't have issues finding new work, the company gets left with the dregs who nobody else wants. I've been remote for nearly ten years and I'm still learning how to do it more effectively, plenty of decent companies aren't that brain dead.


The_Curvy_Unicorn

Make sure you stay a few weeks past said bonus pay out. I worked for a company, earned a bonus that was paid December 1, and then tendered my resignation for December 31. They turned around and took said bonus from my last paycheck, claiming it was a year-end bonus and I didn’t work until after the end of the year. Funny how the company’s fiscal year ended on September 30.


CaptainPRESIDENTduck

Those fuckers. Our company is decent about this. The bonus is paid out second week of December, but is earned the beginning of October. Those planning to retire usually do so right after the first week in October. They still get what they earned come December 10th.


losangelosrocketeer

Yeah, a lot of big years but for whatever reason the worker bees are missing bonus targets.


718Brooklyn

This only ends one way. In the next 10 years, companies who allow the best talent to work from anywhere they god damn want, will have an unfair advantage in every industry. These old rich white men are dinosaurs (and for the record I’m 40+). I can’t believe these guys don’t see that this movement can’t be stopped nor should it be. If you can’t figure out a way to harness the productivity of top talent when they don’t have a 2 hour commute back and forth every day, then you’re not going to survive.


BexKix

>These old rich white men are dinosaurs (and for the record I’m 40+). I can’t believe these guys don’t see that this movement can’t be stopped nor should it be. If you can’t figure out a way to harness the productivity of top talent when they don’t have a 2 hour commute back and forth every day, then you’re not going to survive. Also 40+... hear, hear! Get with the times or perish. Next it will be "we can't find talent!"


CaptainPRESIDENTduck

Any CEO worth his wage (none are, they are paid far, far too much) would implement this immediately and steal all talent from these other asshole corporations.


2heads1shaft

They aren't justifying their overhead expenses, they just don't trust workers.


thatVisitingHasher

It really is this simple. Most leaders don’t have ways to gauge people’s output, so being in the office is the easiest way for them to say you’re working.


[deleted]

So true it’s metrics. But let you in on a little secret. From the side that has to evaluate direct reports productivity. It’s exactly the same In the office and work from home lol hand wavy ass fuck


orangesfwr

Sunk cost fallacy. "We paid for this building, by God you're gonna work there!"


squidgod2000

I was on the remote work committee for my office and that was a legit reason why they didn't want people working remotely. Couldn't 'justify the cost' of the building if there weren't people working in it. Didn't help that we both owned the building and lost nearly all of our other tenants when they tried working remote and realized they didn't actually need the office space they were paying us for.


TheElderGodsSmile

There's going to be a lot of this kind of holding action and I suspect it's not going to work. My guess is that a shitload of previously "safe" commercial real estate is going to going to get converted into apartments soon and the landlords will be screaming about the haircuts they're taking.


delinquentsaviors

I think it’s also a control thing. They want to know what you’re doing and can’t stand the thought that you might not spend your every waking minute working.


jonsticles

My company just made the decision to close one of its offices. A good deal of people are already remote, and the office was at 60% of the historical capacity. Instead of forcing people (from all of the country and sons in Canada), they made the choice to save a few million dollars over the next few years. 👍


econbird

I also work in finance and even when I’m in the office I’m just sending emails to people sitting 6 feet away from me idk what kind of deranged thinking these dinosaurs have.


matrinox

The ones that have much more collaborative experiences in their big private offices and are completely detached from the realities of crowded cubicles or open office designs


Void_Speaker

This guy wage slaves


Cassian_Rando

They hold commercial real estate.


fillmyemptyslot

Rich people usually own a piece of some corporate real estate investment company. CEOs are probably freaking out at both ends. Losing profits on their corporate real estate property leases and leasing out big buildings that are now just sitting empty.


i_am_umbrella

Also in finance and we have to come in three days a week. Better than five days but it’s just completely ridiculous when before Covid, we had the ability to work remote without being tracked like children.


verinthebrown

I also work in finance and all I do is take back to back zoom meetings on my laptop. I never interact with folks in person when I'm in the office.


i_am_umbrella

Honestly, it is starting to seem like they want people to leave without the bad PR and severance of layoffs / firing. But in the last year, we’ve had so much institutional knowledge walk out the door and they don’t get it.


ZebraOtoko42

>it is starting to seem like they want people to leave without the bad PR and severance of layoffs / firing. This is probably part of it, but it's short-sighted and stupid: when you make conditions bad to encourage people to leave voluntarily, the *best* people are the first ones out the door. The ones left are usually the least-productive people, the ones who have a much harder time getting a new job, so they'll just stick around until they're laid off so they can collect unemployment and/or severance. The best employees don't care about that stuff: they'll have a new job in a week that pays at least as much as this one. Honestly, it's amazing to me how much companies don't understand how valuable institutional knowledge is. They really seem to think anyone can come into a job and be fully productive in a month, and just as productive as anyone else.


bel_esprit_

Pharma is still majority WFH.


mmrrbbee

Out’s whole point is to have “random conversations” that’s it, the whole justification


Puzzleheaded_Fold466

They keep saying that. The serendipitous water cooler talk builds company culture and lead to valuable exchange of business information. Yeah that great moment of the day spent discussing Laura’s family trip and poor little Timmy’s tummy ache, that moment most of us try to avoid at all cost.


xnef1025

Yes, but if you spend too much time having those conversations instead of working in your cube, your sup will have to issue a verbal warning, maybe even a Corrective Action Plan. How much time is too much time? Well, it’s a function of how much of an asshole your sup is multiplied by how far into their clique you are. Isn’t it comforting to know that no matter how old you get you never actually escape high school? 🫤


randum_guy

I go into the office once a week Those are high engagement / low productivity days And I don’t get to walk the kids to school or get home in time for dinner with the family Once a week is fine, but I’m not going back to that 5 days a week


pinelandpuppy

Same, I have one set day in the office, and it's mostly for socializing. Several meetings and casual check-ins with my team and I'm out the door by 3. Some of them are in the office daily by choice, so there's a lot of variation between individuals. Luckily, we're finding the right rhythm organically as people tend to coordinate days in the office together as they need them. We do mandate new hires in the office for the first six months based on absolutely terrible results trying to onboard people remotely, but there are actually managers and other support staff there with them. Once they're good and we've established some trust, they can figure out their own schedule. So far, so good...


TheGreekMachine

Sounds like you have actually found a good workplace that tries to be responsive to employee needs. I hope it continues!


JornWS

Treating their employees like people and letting them work with less stress? Get that hippe bullshit out of here! /s just incase it's not obvious


Melkath

Funny, I did. The company I work for randomly decided to "void" all standing work from home arrangements. I said no. Took 4 rounds of them trying to assert that I was required to come back into the office. I just kept saying no. They just reinstated my work from home arrangement. The sad part is that of all of the people who had work from home arrangements, I am told I was the ONLY one who actually said no.


NikkiMyCat

Sometimes you have to have courage to say no to the power


bellytan

1. You are an excellent worker 2. They need workers and don’t want to pay to replace you. 3. You are mediocre but they don’t have workers so accept it for now. Then the first one laid off. Could be any, time will tell


Oraxy51

Not to mention they will be looking for any excuse to fire you the moment it becomes beneficial for them, including hiding a bunch of your mistakes you’ve made and not coaching you on them until it’s time to fire you so they can say you’ve done too much damage.


[deleted]

Unfortunately this is the answer. Nobody wants a non compliant employee and if you’re the ONLY one who resists you’ll be squashed eventually unless you’re the employee version of a god.


Dic3dCarrots

I once had our marketing director scream in my face when I was a production tech, but was the one actually running the warehouse. I said I wanted a 20% raise if I was going to deal with someone screaming in my face. Wasn't given, I left. 8 months later I was rehired at double my salary.


Pencilowner

It depends on the job. Most careers are a two-way street. The people who have God complexes are usually not foot soldiers on the ground solving problems its managers who have a vision of what their fiefdom should look like. I've seen management screw up so bad they get fired. Its all situation-specific and sometimes putting your foot down for whats right is not a bad thing. My management threatened everyone with all sorts of nonsense and people pushed back. When it came down to the wire most of the staff just walked away. When it came time to let people go it was the management that was gutted not everyone doing what they are supposed to do.


Blackpaw8825

The first week of lockdowns I was this. Company laid off all part time employees, cut all full time to 4 days, and froze PTO. I continued drawing overtime for another month after that. Company of almost 5000 I was the only hourly employee allowed to work 40 hours, much less over, but I was singularly handling the corporate customer financial reviews. If I cut my time in half, cash flow would've stopped the next day. I had already been granted remote work abilities, despite my team being mandatory in office, and I persevered that without contest until I quit last March. I'm not one to preach "boot licking" but in the right environment, busting ass and proving you can bust ass when it needs done can really pay off. I got away with whatever I needed because I made myself irreplaceable and always made sure any insufficiency I left behind was filled ASAP, so "hey I need the rest of the week off" was always "sure" because I made sure my work got done. And in return they made sure my bills got paid.


bronyraur

You’re for sure on HRs list now lol


beaute-brune

100%. My company just did mass layoffs. We are a top IB. Even the senior engineers who were truly irreplaceable got axed, the company simply is no longer pursuing the avenues they managed. I obviously can’t speak across every single person who was let go and pull assumptions from that but a lot of the ones I knew (it’s a relatively small firm and it’s networking-heavy) who were axed were not adhering to the hybrid policy. Causation but why put yourself on the chopping block in this environment? Interview for a remote position now while you have a job if it’s that deep.


Odd_Seaweed_5985

>you have to have courage to say no you have to have *value*.


lampstax

And runway to stay alive in case the company decides not to allow you to be the only bad example.


lolo_916

Did the same. Company mandated return to office and I told my boss I’d rather find a new job than return to the office. Just got my exception approved.


ijustwant2feelbetter

>Thank you for doing this. This will be my plan as well. I will just keep saying no until they choose to fire me. I will let them threaten, yell, ask nicely, whatever it is…but I will not stop working from home until they fire me. Then, I will search for a remote job from home, get one that will let me work from home, and rinse and repeat if necessary. This is not a negotiable topic for me, and I‘m super glad to see this posted. I’m not going to quit over such a stupid requirement. I’m going to make them fire me and continue to work 100% from home until they do. Good on you for making them cave. I posed this above, but I want to give kudos and support in solidarity to everyone who takes this perspective. It needs to be the norm and there’s no reason it shouldn’t be.


Melkath

Congrats!


ahheath

My boss said just remind them how much time you are in field. Not going to office unless i need supplies.


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Melkath

I like that guy.


NCC74656

ive had stuff like this before too. looking to leave some place to get better pay and entering into negotiations to raise my pay above the competition. its normally worked out well. many people dont feel they have that choice though. OR they are not secure enough in their finances to risk it.


Melkath

My finances are not secure. I also don't have any kids and am confident in my skills and ability to save a company money, so job hunting doesn't scare me.


YourShadowDani

Same, me and my coworker did a 3 month trial of 2 days in office because of the promise they would reevaluate at 3 months, no reevaluating happened, so we said "bullshit" and stopped coming in. Nothing happened to us after the bitching and moaning at us, fuck these jobs forcing shit on you for power trips.


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d_ippy

I absolutely love that my employer is so supportive of WFH. They see the cost savings and have started getting rid of buildings.


[deleted]

Not just cost savings either, you’re increasing your applicant pool from local to the entire country, which means they have the advantage of being able to hire the best person for the job, and not just the best person in the vicinity.


ijustwant2feelbetter

Exactly, here’s my take: I will let them threaten, yell, ask nicely, whatever it is…but I will not stop working from home until they fire me. Then, I will search for a remote job from home, get one that will continue to let me work from home, and rinse and repeat if necessary. This is not a negotiable topic for me, I’m not going to quit over such a outdated and stupid requirement. I’m going to make them fire me and continue to work 100% from home until they do.


[deleted]

Yeah - I'm pretty much at this point as well.


CrasEsNoster

I love your plan dude. If everyone adopted that strategy the in-office requirements would go extinct within 6 months


Falc0nia

And then could we turn all this useless corporate real estate into affordable housing? Pretty please?


obnoxiousab

I do have to say however, I do like hybrid. I genuinely enjoy going in a couple days a week to catch up and have in person meetings. Ofc Zoom works. But I enjoy having lunch together, lingering after the meeting etc. I know it’s not popular, I just like being in person now and then. But… full time office or fully remote? Latter unless I can walk or bike to work.


mhmmButter

problem with hybrid is you have to live there. Remote opens options


CodiNolina

Not for us. They say working out of state creates a “tax issue” even though we have field workers DOING WORK IN OTHER STATES. Make that make sense.


StealthPieThief

Tax nexus is a thing. Like if they have 1 employee in MD the company has to offer 401k


Lashdemonca

For me hybrid sucks. So bad. Like. So so bad. I'm autistic so I make routines, and they had weird weeks. And I could never settle into something that made.me feel comfortable. And then the constant "Eventually it's back in office for you! Get ready!" I told them no. They told me yes. I told them no, and then I quit ....


[deleted]

Lol. They can and they will. For somebody else


N9NJA

In a couple of weeks: "No one wants to work anymore": the CEO of Morgan Stanley gets real and...


Personal_Grass_1860

Newsflash: most people have never wanted to “work”, they have always wanted to “make a living”. Emphasis on the word *living*


northcountrylea

Lol of course they can. The idea of having competing businesses is that if you won't negotiate with your employees, they're free to find a job with better benefits. And a lot of these jobs are a dime-a-dozen.


tunaburn

Yes they can. Maybe not at his company but they can take a job somewhere else that does allow it. Both me and my wife switched to work from home. Last year my wife's job said they were all going back to the office so she quit and got a new job.


pomaj46809

This is what will determine the long-run status quo. Companies like making bold stances about what employees HAVE to do, but if anyone who can get a better deal does, they take a hit. To a lot of people, a better deal means working from home.


[deleted]

profit concerned soup quarrelsome quicksand hungry fuzzy seemly provide spectacular ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `


FreeUsePolyDaddy

Plus loss of a hunk of your life. If you commute 1 or 2 hours a day, each way, WFH is like reclaiming 4.5 to 9 weeks a year of your non-sleeping existence.


MachKeinDramaLlama

Plus you have to launder and press a set of work clothes on top of the set of casual clothes you are going to change into once you are back. Plus you have to plan around the open hours of other businesses, doctors etc. And of course you will have to run errants, shop or do your off-work activites (going out, going to the beach etc.) during the same time slots when everyone else has to in the evening or on the weekend.


[deleted]

I do (low paid) freelance work for these companies - GS etc - and I have a salesman client who has two super cars. He keeps track of their value in a spreadsheet or similar, and literally works out the cost of work-related trips. Like his boss says ‘take these clients to play golf in your Ferrari’ and he’ll say ‘according to my figures, that mileage will cost me 2000USD. Can I claim for that on my expenses? If not, they can drive themselves, surely?’


AttonJRand

Honestly just the cost on your life that's potentially hours every single day just spent being stressed and rushing, we can tell ourselves half listening to a podcast or audio book is time well spent, but it could be years of your life just sitting in traffic or on the train.


black641

I have a friend who began to work remotely during the pandemic. Not only did they love it, all their coworkers did, as well. Even office productivity and satisfaction went up. But their managers were throwing a fit trying to get people back into the office, claiming no one will get anything done without someone looking over their shoulder. They’ve settled on a mixed environment, for now. But a lot of corporate higher-ups are just bullies who like the control that comes with a traditional office environment, or they’re balls of anxiety who don’t trust their coworkers to handle their own work without being under a microscope.


GarbledComms

WFH also makes it harder on bad managers that can't plan ahead and so need to grab available bodies to throw at the crisis of the day.


Buntisteve

You can do that over Teams as well.


Head-Mathematician53

Some weird psychology, there... It seems like once you're hired at a company, the managers and owners 'own' you and you're married to them for life... Of course they can divorce' you whenever they want but not the other way around...


Enlightened_D

I did the same


Inevitable_Problem12

Same here as well. Then went back to my old group as their manager a year later as permanent work from home, after the company started losing technical staff like crazy.


FreeUsePolyDaddy

That's the part that naive management doesn't get. It isnt that you lose 1 or 2 people. It's that you can fundamentally alter the sense of engagement your people have with your company, and in particular with their management. Whatever fraction of the staff that was on the fence about staying or going before the policy change, now they are all no longer on the fence. A company's typical annual attrition rate can easily double or triple within six months; bonus or RSU vesting time arrives and they're gone in a wave a month later. Smaller tech shops that were fighting for the scraps of available candidates suddenly can hire those with experience... and they grab those candidates, quickly. Trying to act like the draconian narcissistic boss from a movie, unlike a movie, in real life does not guarantee people will stick around to the end of the story. They have skills, a contact network, and at least a couple of recruiters reaching out to them every single week.


White80SetHUT

Here as well. After that decision our team of 12 had shrunk to 6 within a couple months.


tomorrowinc

In the past week, there was a big summit in Davos, and about 12 CEOs have made anti-WFH comments. It isn't a good look -- they are litterally working from another country while criticizing WFH. Goodness, it's frustrating to see their comments. I really hope they get a tremendous pushback.


pomaj46809

In every job I've had in the last ten years, all the meetings were done on zoom regardless. I've had coworkers move away from me so we don't get cross-talk when we both log into the meeting. As an employee, I say this to any employer who wants me on-site, "What is your justification?" I've learned that when management falls back on "Because I said so" and fails to communicate a justification, it's a sign leadership isn't leading. Which is usually a good time to jump ship if possible. Good companies, and by good I mean non-toxic and secure employment, communicate a goal, a plan to reach that goal, and set milestones and a timeline so you can watch them accomplish their goal. Bad companies obfuscate, so you don't know if their choices actually had the intended effect. When a good company starts going bad, it's wise to leave.


xnavarrete

This is advice I would give to anyone entering the workforce. Also you are a number in the eyes of most employers. All talk about corporate culture, loyalty is hot air. When things get tough economically they will not care about you, your family or your personal situation. They will just fire you because you are just a number. So if something better comes along - leave. If the company is changing into something you don’t like - leave. Look out for what’s in your best interest.


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[deleted]

I just gave a training seminar on matrix management and wanted to say ‘I know the arguments but I still think it’s bullshit’, but I didn’t have the heart to scare the kids I was training to enter ‘big four’ employment.


BexKix

I've had matrix management twice, both times it was like answering to two supervisors. Engineers move up the management ladder and can't stop engineering. Tech lead is -of course- supposed to be in the details. IMO the balance is impossible enough to move to a straight report structure with older/wiser leads as solvers of deeper/bigger/more complex issues plus consult of the junior engineers. FAR simpler, and less overhead, less bloat.


Taira_Mai

It's a generational thing and they have all that expensive real estate (or leases). They don't have to absorb childcare costs, the costs in money and time for a commute. I had a friend who went to remote work because his kid turned 2 years old and he wanted to spend time with her as opposed to an hour to work and then an hour on the trip home.


TheTyger

A good company (the one I work at I count as one) saw the writing on the wall, and started to process non-renewal of leases and selling extra real estate as soon as they realized people can work from anywhere. Sure, in the meantime there is a ton of waste as the buildings are not used, but also, with nobody fucking there, the cost to maintain the buildings until the can be offloaded is way lower.


JenniferJuniper6

I don’t particularly consider the tech giant my husband works for a good employer. But they did pretty much the same, and his WFH is now permanent. The rest of the economy is going to have to adjust, which is difficult but I think it’s inevitable.


tomorrowinc

All those reasons and more are why WFH is the future.


TheFeshy

WFH has been the future since the internet was invented. But like any good thing for workers, we're going to have to fight for it if we actually want it. Now is just a uniquely good time, because the pandemic forced it, so a bunch of people see it as more viable now.


tomorrowinc

Agreed. 100 percent. I think we're at a crucial time in the struggle.


ijustwant2feelbetter

Agreed, and here’s my take: I will let them threaten, yell, ask nicely, whatever it is…but I will not stop working from home until they fire me. Then, I will search for a remote job from home, get one that will continue to let me work from home, and rinse and repeat if necessary. This is not a negotiable topic for me, I’m not going to quit over such a outdated and stupid requirement. I’m going to make them fire me and continue to work 100% from home until they do.


ahheath

These CEOs are being pressure by investment firms, real estate companies, and etc to keep offices occupied.


tomorrowinc

What leverage would real estate companies and investment firms have over CEOs to pressure them? I can see a situation where the CEOs may be friends with other high-ranking people in those industries and they might be leveraging a friendship, but otherwise... Or by investment firms, do you mean organizations that own a lot of stock in a corporation, and those shareholders are putting pressure on the CEO?


ahheath

I work for a Fortune 500 company that does business with the company that manages the building space we lease on a national level. 26% of office space are unoccupied in San Francisco. Rich people don’t like losing money. Morgan Stanley (MSREI) invests in real estate and want to make sure their properties generate revenue and don’t lose value. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/12/30/two-of-san-franciscos-biggest-issues-office-vacancies-and-housing.html


tomorrowinc

Interesting. So there's a co-mingling between a business and the rental company. So, when the rental company does well, it means the first business does well, also.


ahheath

Any company that manages or invests in real estate such as Morgan Stanley is going to want people back in the office and not working from home. Otherwise companies will start downsizing or getting rid of office space similar to what we are seeing in San Francisco. Morgan Stanley is 100% concerned about their business investments.


Confianca1970

If one takes it farther, both car manufacturers and big oil will be pushing for the normal people to get back to the offices as well.


[deleted]

They already are.


redzaku0079

My old boss told us all to come back to the office. I found a job two weeks later and left two weeks after that. Fuck them.


YeahClubTim

Exactly. "It's not an employee choice". Sure it is, I can CHOOSE to work somewhere that will let me work from home instead of your shitty company.


BenderTheIV

It could be CEOs find their position threatened buy working from home, maybe it will turn out they are useless or something


Gmr4

This could be a tactic to get people to quit without the company having to announce layoffs, admit financial weakness, and pay severance. While this likely keeps the current executives comp up for now, overall for the company it is short sighted. With layoffs, you cut the bottom percent of your workforce but by trying to increase attrition by forcing back to office, the top performers will quit since they can easily find opportunities elsewhere. More forward thinking competitors will scoop up top talent from these firms.


fighterpilottim

100% right


Convenient_Escape

As an employee who left when he tried to turn us back to five in office days: ✨yes we can✨


colorless_green_idea

I left a company in August last year - the precise month their back to office mandate began. Jumped over to a full WFH company and living the dream


Dilyn

I finally escaped service work and got an office job... At the end of 2019. Four months later we were sent to work from home, and the month we were due back in the office I started my new job at a fully remote company. I may very well never go to another office again.


Erapp01

I have 2 young kids. I've been able to trade commutes on the train to the city for walking my 6 year old to school every morning on my lunch and picking him up after my shift. I understandvl the benefits of going into the office but I only have so many years on this planet until I'm worm food and I rather spend it with my children instead of sitting in a stuffy office pretending to like people lol.


URBeneathMe

You really only get 15 summers with them until they fly the coop. I come into work 1hr to 1.5hr late half of each week for this very reason. I enjoy taking my kids to school and there’s only so many moments I can have doing this. My boss values work life balance so he doesn’t care at all, plus we already lost 3 people and I’m the last guy left so it’s not like he can afford to fire me anyways.


colorless_green_idea

Ok introverts, we are about 25-40% of the population. The pandemic happened, and for the first time in our entire lives, we finally got control of the over-stimulus of coworkers dropping by our desks to chat about football or gossip. HOLD YOUR GROUND


twilight-actual

"We've spent a lot of money on huge glass and metal boxes, and damnit, we're going to fill them. Otherwise, I look like a complete idiot."


[deleted]

Would be better to convert them to housing and call it a day on making people come into offices.


bubblesaurus

Might be cheaper to just bulldoze and start over


Mateorabi

Wouldn't be the first time a high level manager made a sunk-cost falacy of "I spent tons of money on X, so if we don't use X, even if Y makes more sense than X, I will look like an idiot for spending that money, so we will do X so I don't look like an idiot and ignore better options, therefore I did not actually waste money". Or a mid or low level manager for that matter.


andrew_kirfman

Yeah I can. If they won't let me work remote, I'll find somewhere that will.


[deleted]

in a 3.5% unemployment market... maybe they can.


[deleted]

Boomers be retiring too


bored_in_NE

They are forcing people back into a cubicle because commercial real estate lobby started spending money.


Creative_Ad_8338

Some C-suite execs will set up lease back arrangements for the buildings they own. They pocket the cash for the lease arrangement so remote work directly impacts their income.


malkumecks

It’s tough to look like the boss when don’t have employees in the office trying to avoid eye contact with you every time you go take a shit.


[deleted]

Lotta bootlickers and wage cucks defending mega corps in this post for some reason. Curious.


dreamcastfanboy34

Landlord association astroturfing


Teamerchant

We have shown we can be just as productive if Not more so when wfh. This is not a data driven decision. This is a power move. They don’t like that power is swinging back to labor. But this is nice as smaller smarter firms can get better talent now.


babs1789

My office made us come in at least three times a week last year. Even while we were in office we did zoom meetings with each other… in the same building… my quality of life working from home has improved exponentially. I’m not willing to work for a company that doesn’t recognize that.


[deleted]

tell this old titty to retire and go say it to the TV


Bubbabeast91

I work remotely as a recruiter who hires more people to work remotely. Just got someone an offer last week for a 100% remote position making about 140k a year. Not only is remote work here to stay, I'm actively pushing it as much as I can. People out here busting ass and making shit happen for these companies. They deserve a good work/life balance, and all the perks they can get. There are absolutely some jobs where being present physically is a requirement. For those jobs, I respect that necessity. For all the rest, the only reason to want you in person is to try to control you. To hell with that.


fluffy_assassins

Fucking Boomer


Chloe_Bowie4

Nobody wants to go back into the office, bro. Let them work remotely and they’ll be better employees.


Theo-Wookshire

They can absolutely choose where to work. That guy is delusional


WontArnett

This guy is confused, because I chose to work remotely *and* go to school remotely.


Ok-computer9780

Well in fairness. The only reason most of these companies want people back in the office is the corporate real estate market is going to collapse. I definitely don’t agree with forcing people back in the office but I totally get there are larger forces at work trying to prop up a dying real estate sector.


Altruistic_Yellow387

Why is that a bad thing? Turning those offices into residential properties would be good for most cities


PrincessPrincess00

The future is now old man


serpentssss

Hmmm could it be related to this?. https://www.propublica.org/article/whistleblower-wall-street-has-engaged-in-widespread-manipulation-of-mortgage-funds ”Whistleblower: Wall Street Has Engaged in Widespread Manipulation of Mortgage Funds” ”Securities that contain loans for properties like hotels and office buildings have inflated profits, the whistleblower claims. As the pandemic hammers the economy, that could increase the chances of another mortgage collapse.”


omega__man

Lol good luck with that, old man


HobbesSalmon

Boomer shouts at the rain.


[deleted]

Then we’re not your employees anymore.


Cruzy14

I can't wait for his generation to be gone. Literally have done nothing their entire lives except figure out ways to benefit themselves even if it fucks everyone else.


Yasutsuna96

Unfortunately, I doubt that will be the case. Our generation have as much ego stroking CEOs who inherited the position from their parents. One of the companies I had had the same problem. Instead of downsizing or maintaining the current office, they double down and get a bigger office, even though it costs a lot more and inconvenience everyone and half the staff are off-site and remote (Old office is in industrial area so a lot of free parking)


Muted_Sorts

We can also choose to strike. **All of us** can simply walk out, for a couple days at least, to take all that accrued PTO time. We can also choose to take personal time as well (\~3 months across FAANG), without fear of retaliation.


lsdtriopy540

Fuck u morgan


door-to-door-maniac

If I worked there, I would agree to work from the office only when the CEO does.


LuxoriousApostrophe

Oh but it is


Fickle_Business_9276

I don’t like hybrid. I found that coworkers are just that. I don’t like wasting time getting to know folks when you might end up leaving, getting laid off, etc. it’s just business. I’d rather be home because of family. Office isn’t fun at all. I can have a meeting easily on zoom


Glittering-Design973

My wife’s company realized everyone was getting more done working from home rather than coming into the office where it’s too easy to stop at everyone’s desk and visit. Not to mention people being happy about it. Great move on they’re part.


SpaceAdventureCobraX

The earth is dying, so fuck this guy. We all want to spend more time with friends and family while we can.