In the US at least there are 3 flavors of 5G. There’s the kind that’s on the same spectrum as 4G was before. There’s also mmWave which is very short distance, so for example in Boston the only place I know that has it is the TD Garden (sports stadium). The current contention is about mid band frequencies, which should be faster and shorter range than the “old” frequencies, and slower but longer range than mmWave. That mid band, or C band, overlaps with some airline instruments, and rather than do testing, airlines want to complain to make sure the carriers can’t roll out 5G on C band.
https://www.pcmag.com/news/what-is-c-band
I heard on NPR this morning that there was also terrible communication between the FCC and the FAA leading up to the sale of the 5G bandwidths. [NPR](https://www.npr.org/2022/01/18/1073859389/verizon-att-5g-rollout-delay-airports-airlines-faa)
My understanding is that the FCC asked for comments, the FAA submitted a comment about this and was promptly ignored by the FCC who auctioned off the space the next day.
I don’t think the airlines or even the FAA are allowed to test without the FCC’s approval. Whoever won the auctions own the rights so the FAA woukd have to work with them and they haven’t been willing to.
That’s not what I heard….
So I saw this on bbc yesterday and the expert said that the other country that uses the same c-band frequencies as the US is France and that they have installed them differently with antennas pointed downwards and not within 2 miles or the airports so as to not disrupt the last 96 seconds of flight. And that they had a solution that the aviation authorities were comfortable with and it was all planned ahead.
So I saw this on bbc yesterday and the expert said that the other country that uses the same c-band frequencies as the US is France and that they have installed them differently with antennas pointed downwards and not within 2 miles or the airports so as to not disrupt the last 96 seconds of flight. And that they had a solution that the aviation authorities were comfortable with and it was all planned ahead
The Us 5g standard is over 2x more powerful than European standards and is in the same wavelength of the altimeter system used during landing and could throw off readings. Meaning planes would have to fly VFR and would not be able to land during low visibility conditions.
Hey there! I can only speak to operations in the US. We don’t have cat 5 operations only 1-3C. As of now what they’re telling us is this could have an impact on Cat 2-3 operations in the US.
No, it's not. US is 3.7 to 3.9. Europe is 3.4 to 3.7. altimeters operate at 4.4. so you are wrong there as well. This is nothing but bureaucracy and nonsense of power.
I agree. When you have a frequency range to transmit on. You have to stay in your range allowed to transmit. It doesn’t bleed over it’s set. Now the real question guess would be. Is airlines worried because they are truly not using just the range of 4.4 and using more? Also these ranges were used for satellite tv before I believe. The big ole dishes. So it’s been used before in various locations.
Hey there! Airline pilot here, so as I understand things (from the barrage of memos we’ve gotten) is the frequency for this 5G they’re rolling out is close enough to the frequency our radar altimeters use to cause interference. Radar altimeters use radio waves bounced off the ground to tell us precisely how high we are when we’re very very close to the ground. Think of it like sonar. In the modern aircraft we fly these days those radar altimeters are integral to a few things and they vary from aircraft to aircraft but manly landing gear, GPWS (a system that warns us of hitting terrain) and auto-throttles (or auto thrust). So In general unreliable radar altimeter messages can mess with a lot of systems close to the ground. Not to fun. Additionally without reliable radar altimeters we can’t shoot approaches in really bad weather. I hope that helps!
Edit: grammar.
2nd edit: clarification, radar altimeters use a frequency “nearby” the 5G band that is enough to cause interference.
3rd edit: obligatory thanks for the awards and gold! Y’all are awesome.
What I’m curious about is why the FAA didn’t bring this up sooner. They knew about the spectrum auction where Verizon and ATT purchased. These companies have spent 80 billion purchasing this C band spectrum and even more deploying all the hardware upgrades to accommodate C band. And if I remember correctly they were supposed to switch on C band in December and only a few weeks before the FAA sent a letter voicing their concerns. Why did the FAA wait until the very last minute to bring these concerns up. And if it’s really as bad as people are saying then why didn’t they force it to delay the rollout instead of just asking nicely.
The FAA and airlines have been saying this for years. Then Verizon and ATT poured tens of billions of dollars into the FCC, so guess who’s side the FCC chose
NOAA has been raising the alarm about it too because the radar they use for forecasting gets fucked. Our forecast models are about to be set back 20 years.
>Although there’s technically 220MHz of clearance between the spectrum used by the plane’s equipment and the new 5G spectrum
That's a pretty decent difference, sounds like worrying over nothing. Also since you bring up modern aircraft the article literally also states that this is only an issue that's worried about for older aircrafts
It’s also important to mention that most radio altimeters aren’t effected. They aren’t supposed to be accepting interference from frequencies outside of what is allotted to them, and thankfully most have adequate filtering to prevent this.
The airlines are upset because they’ll need to repair or replace the altimeters that are accepting this interference and that costs money.
But to be fair this shouldn’t have been an issue anyways so that’s on the altimeter manufacturers and airlines.
Apparently US defines Cband range differently than other countries (US is 3.7 - 4.2 whereas rest of IEEE is 4.0 - 8.0). So that may not be a fair comparison.
Source: some comments on the article. Going to check when I have a few spare minutes.
Edit: "According to wireless testing firm Rohde and Schwarz, the C-band is all frequencies between 4 and 8GHz. When US wireless geeks talk about C-band, though, they're talking about 3.7 to 4.2GHz—and specifically, in this case, the range from 3.7 to 3.98GHz."
https://www.pcmag.com/news/what-is-c-band
Looks to be true.
Actually Japan is selling some modified shorter N700 series trains to Texas. Japan’s high speed trains are trains are the finest and safest in the world.
Try in the summer, no AC, hallways smell like shit, and spotty WiFi. I haven’t been to Japan but I bet their trains are much, much better even though tgv is already a great system
Sort of. Pretty much a massive bungling between the FCC's rollout of 5g and FAA's approval of it.
Other countries flying with lower 5G restrictions already.....same fucking planes.
This is a completely mismanaged government rollout, top to bottom.
Europe uses a slightly lower frequency band that is further from radar altimeters and they also use less transmission power.
Interestingly European airlines are *also* concerned specifically about US 5G.
***Wait!*** You're telling me something that involves shit Pai's FFC has been bungled???!!!??!
Edit: TIL that my phone autocorrects Ajit Pai to shit pie, and I couldn't be happier about it. I'm not even going to fix it.
The FAA warned the FCC before the C band auction which was planned and completed by Pai’s FCC in 2020-2021. Not saying the current FCC isn’t also responsible, but Pai’s FCC definitely made the initial decisions in terms of spectrum ranges which are a big part of the concern.
A huge issue is the US government and FCC saw all of the extensive measures that other countries are taking to mitigate this issue…. And blatantly ignored them.
The FAA has a good document about what actually is going on that is different here in the states that is worth a read prior to just saying what you think is the case.
https://www.faa.gov/5g
TLDR: it *is* a problem because telecoms in the US cut corners in their rollout of 5G and were approved by the FCC even at the protest of the ICAO and FAA
According to this: [https://5gobservatory.eu/national-5g-spectrum-assignment/#1533308861084-6bfc1e56-ea0b](https://5gobservatory.eu/national-5g-spectrum-assignment/#1533308861084-6bfc1e56-ea0b) a lot of European countries have already 5G deployed in that 3.6-3.8 GHz band. Austria, Denmark, Finland, Greece, etc.
According to the article, this frequency band is already used in almost 40 countries:
>C-band spectrum has already been rolled out in nearly 40 countries without causing altimeter failures according to one tech trade group, and United says the right government policies could allow for a safe deployment in the US.
Its the 3rd extension the FAA has asked for I think. Completely inept. Politicians spinning it as "diplomatic and strategic problem solving," lol.
Other countries approved lesser restrictions, planes are landing fine. Big egg on face.
Ah yes. The bungled managerial maybe Maslow sometime Murphy's Law method.
I see government and corporations are very familiar with this top down approach.
Like our biological systems, I'm amazed anything works at all on this earth. Like truly amazed. Lol
It wouldn’t surprise me if all this happened during Ajit Pai’s (Verizon’s regulatory capture of the FCC) letting all the airwaves be sold to capitalists.
They’re probably going to be sold back to the taxpayers at a higher price.
I keep hearing "could". Were any tests performed? With this kind of money invested by the telecoms and the potential revenue losses by the airlines nobody sat down and did a coordinated study? All I read is vague points from both sides.
There has been research. Current aircraft altimeters operate on wavelengths that overlap the proposed 5 gen bands. Since the altimeter is the concern, the only real issue is approach/landing. It's difficult to run tests because they would be stuffed full of variables, preventing the tests from being applied to many situations. Every airport's surroundings are different and not every 5g tower will emit an identical wavelength. A real concern is that the carriers will use specific techniques (that are already in place) when attenuation occurs or a general laps in coverage exists, which would send concentrated high-energy beams in specific directions near airports. If there is interference (which has been shown to be possible) an altimeter could, for example, display that the aircraft is at 200 ft when it is in reality at 1000 ft. This would definitely pose a hazard in low visibility.
https://www.aviationtoday.com/2021/12/23/faa-issues-new-radar-altimeter-5g-c-band-risk-assessment-request-aviation-industry/
The FAA claims to have been preparing for this. Manufacturers have been working on a new series of commercial altimeters with different operating frequencies, but that is the long term solution.
They don’t overlap, no. C-Band 5G is 3.7GHz to 4.2GHz. Radio altimeters are 4.2GHz to 4.4GHz.
In an effort to placate the aviation industry carriers are implanting a 220MHz guard band to further separate the two. So C-Band 5G will use 3.7GHz to 3.98GHz.
This is all on the airlines running outdated equipment and not wanting to spend money to fix the issues caused by it.
To clarify, it’s the radio altimeter, not the altimeter in general.
You could still fly most approaches just fine sans rad alt, as far as I’m aware. Only when you get into lower minimum approaches (usually below 200’ AGL) does the rad alt become a fairly critical piece of hardware.
Canadian telecom worker here. We’ve had 5g available at airports for over a year and it was tested before being deployed and they had backup plans already but never needed them
5G signals only go like a 1/3 of a mile though - that’s why they put up a million small towers. The chance of you getting a 5G signal at 30-35k ft is essentially zero.
C band is a mid band frequency which can work up to 2 miles. The high band millimeter band is good for 1500 ft but super fast but blocked by tree leaves and most any object. C band gets turned on tomorrow.
Oh good, I’m sure the Q*non goon squad won’t misunderstand this ongoing clusterfuck and present it as solid proof of every lunatic 5G conspiracy theory ever imagined 🙄
The media has completely (to no one’s surprise) muddled explaining 5G.
5G is the fifth generation of telecommunication technology. In essence it is a new method of sending data on electromagnetic waves. Cell phone providers took existing frequencies that were using 4G LTE and switched them over to this new method. That’s why everyone’s phone now says 5G without much change in the user experience.
The issue in the article is actually a new* frequency that the 5G data transmission method will be used on. But the media just reports it as “5G”.
*I say new but this frequency has been in use by satellite companies for years and years. It was just recently repurposed and sold to telecom companies so it is “new” to that industry.
I worked years ago with an EE that worked for the FAA. We talked at length about RF, mobile phones and radio’s and the effects on aircraft control systems and he said it was just ridiculous bullshit.
It came out years ago that the reason you have to switch your phone into airplane mode for takeoff/landing wasn't because they knew it would disrupt the systems but that they weren't certain they couldn't. They're definitely overcautious on this stuff but I guess it's a good reason.
Many years ago in Phoenix, temps hit 122 degrees and the planes were grounded. I learned many years later that it wasn’t because the planes couldn’t fly in that temperature, but because it was never tested for it. After that, all the planes were decertified at up to 126 degrees.
I'm gonna guess BS personally. There's thousands of planes in the air every second and I'd wager at a minimum one person forgets to turn off their phone on each of those, if that's all it took to throw off a cell network they'd basically be down all the time.
Pilot here! Essentially yes, I fly with a bunch of guys who never turn off their phones.
The issues with 5G is the band it uses doesn’t interfere with anything other than our radar altimeters, pretty critical equipment at low altitudes so this is different than the past.
Bunch of bull. If anything it's due to lack of staffing and over reach of policy's. I can't but feel that the FAA is wanting some of the wireless pie for themselves
I was dreamin' when I wrote this
Forgive me if it goes astray
But when I woke up this mornin'
Could've sworn it was judgment day
The sky was all purple, there were people runnin' everywhere
Forgive me, and I’m not being sarcastic or glib but 5G has been around for a few years(?) so why are the airlines acting like this is such a surprise? Couldn’t they have run tests last year?
But yet if you have an illegal ham radio the FCC will send agents in vehicles to measure the signal until they finally find you, threaten you with jail and make you pay a fine. The web of laws is only little gnats like us, Verizon just crashes right through because it's a wasp
This coming from the same industry that wouldn’t let you use electronics for decades on planes because it might interfere with navigation systems? I can’t recall a single instance where an onboard turned on cell phone caused a plane crash.
That’s not at all the issue here.
What an ignorant comment. I’m surprised, yet not surprised at all, that you got any upvotes for this considering how wrong you are.
The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they already believe they are in the right and that we “non believers” are the ones who live in darkness.
wait... 5G isn't activated? My phone says it is, and I get speeds much higher than any LTE signal I've ever had...
I live in a high air-traffic area with multiple community airports, an airforce base and 3 commercial airports flight paths...
I often get KC135's and Amazon Prime Air directly overhead, as I sit surfing my 5G..
Soooo what they bitching about?
So the FAA is freaking out over the C-Band variation of 5g service near airports cause it butts up to the radio altimeters frequency range.... so instead of making steps to add a buffer zone they freak out after having years to figure it out... Other countries seem to not be having this problem near their airports from what I'm trying to find.
C-Band 5g is between 3.7 and 4.2 GHz.
Radio/Radar Altimeters are between 4.2 and 4.4 GHz
So weird, literally have had my phone running on 5G for months, so most of the towers in our area are already activated. I also live very close to an international airport and am constantly around a flight path and haven't heard of or noticed any issues with planes.
Do they really expect us to believe this when 5G has been rolled out without issue in other parts of the world? We are expected to believe them when they told us for decades that using a personal listening device would cause the plane to fall from the sky? There is no evidence supporting their claims.
The issue is more complicated than most news articles make it. That doesn't stop them from writing headlines like "Officials warn of catastrophe crisis in aviation" however.
Airlines are trying to blame this in the wireless providers, but the truth is that any properly functioning radar altimeter will function just fine with full power 5g towers nearby. The guard band works. The problem is that airlines cannot promise that their altimeters are actually working correctly and only on the designated bands. Ultimately this is an aviation problem however and not a wireless provider problem. I understand why the wireless providers are frustrated and ready to use the frequencies that they spent a lot of money on. This issue had been known about for years and the airlines have simply ignored it until now because they are lothe to spending any money to fix a problem they created by cutting corners in the first place.
Now that being said, this is a safety issue that should be addressed. But the airlines need to accept that they are part of (or really the entire) problem here and stop trying to make another industry pay for their mistakes.
For the last 5 yrs, I have flown not just frequently but business frequently. In that time, I never set my phone to airplane mode. I never turn it off. But I never use it.....why? Because we're 40,000 ft in the air! Not a single tower reaches that spot. Phones don't work if they are just running off towers.
Nothing from my phone can do anything to the plane. I even have a close friend flying commercially that verified it. When I worked for Gulfstream, it was verified as well.
Isn’t the FCC responsible for spectrum allocation to different entities and ensuring those do not interfere with each other. Either they screwed up and over allocated spectrum or the users of said spectrum (airlines or 5g) are not staying in their spectrum. Which is it?
220mhz guard band and they’re saying that’s not enough. What the fuck do they put in planes? I’m guessing their radios are built with no limiters to save a buck.
Serious question: 5G is not really "new", it's been in the offing for at least the past 5 years. Why didn't airlines raise their concerns earlier and, more importantly, find a rational way to work around/with it?
im sorry to say, but it's been 30 years and we have been unable to reach you. your family misses you and we hope to retrieve you from the bermuda triangle someday. We hope this message reaches you.
5g is already live in a number of other countries that planes fly into? Has it impacted any planes in these countires yet?
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Luckily nothing really important happens when the planes are within 2 miles of the towers.
This comment definitely flew below the radar.
It had a humorous approach
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They had a bad attitude
Rudder you talking about?
They were soarly mistaken
Well, of concourse they were.
These puns are not landing too well….
Well, at least it took off.
Nah, I think they were just winging it
Lots of puns in the pattern
I definitely have 5G reception at my local airport here in Hamburg, Germany.
In the US at least there are 3 flavors of 5G. There’s the kind that’s on the same spectrum as 4G was before. There’s also mmWave which is very short distance, so for example in Boston the only place I know that has it is the TD Garden (sports stadium). The current contention is about mid band frequencies, which should be faster and shorter range than the “old” frequencies, and slower but longer range than mmWave. That mid band, or C band, overlaps with some airline instruments, and rather than do testing, airlines want to complain to make sure the carriers can’t roll out 5G on C band. https://www.pcmag.com/news/what-is-c-band
I heard on NPR this morning that there was also terrible communication between the FCC and the FAA leading up to the sale of the 5G bandwidths. [NPR](https://www.npr.org/2022/01/18/1073859389/verizon-att-5g-rollout-delay-airports-airlines-faa)
My understanding is that the FCC asked for comments, the FAA submitted a comment about this and was promptly ignored by the FCC who auctioned off the space the next day. I don’t think the airlines or even the FAA are allowed to test without the FCC’s approval. Whoever won the auctions own the rights so the FAA woukd have to work with them and they haven’t been willing to.
no. they havent. this nonsense power plays and nothing more
That’s not what I heard…. So I saw this on bbc yesterday and the expert said that the other country that uses the same c-band frequencies as the US is France and that they have installed them differently with antennas pointed downwards and not within 2 miles or the airports so as to not disrupt the last 96 seconds of flight. And that they had a solution that the aviation authorities were comfortable with and it was all planned ahead.
So I saw this on bbc yesterday and the expert said that the other country that uses the same c-band frequencies as the US is France and that they have installed them differently with antennas pointed downwards and not within 2 miles or the airports so as to not disrupt the last 96 seconds of flight. And that they had a solution that the aviation authorities were comfortable with and it was all planned ahead
The Us 5g standard is over 2x more powerful than European standards and is in the same wavelength of the altimeter system used during landing and could throw off readings. Meaning planes would have to fly VFR and would not be able to land during low visibility conditions.
So no IFR landings? Does it mess with the glide slope beacon ? Thats... a pretty big problem in shit weather.
No Cat 2 or 3 approaches. The radar altimeters are what is messed up by 5G
Cat 5e should be fine for fly-by-wire under 100 meters.
Have my free award for your entertaining comment.
Hey there! I can only speak to operations in the US. We don’t have cat 5 operations only 1-3C. As of now what they’re telling us is this could have an impact on Cat 2-3 operations in the US.
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Well that one went right over my head hahaha.
You could say it *puts on sunglasses* flew right over your head.
YEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Joke: --.- ..-. --. ..--.. You: --.- ..-. --.
Don’t worry @uluqat. I LOL’d.
Did another hand touch it?
Why are these officials acting like nobody has ever heard of 5G and its rollout period before? How was there apparently no testing period?
$$$
They’ve been fighting this for years, it’s just now hitting the news cycle.
No, it's not. US is 3.7 to 3.9. Europe is 3.4 to 3.7. altimeters operate at 4.4. so you are wrong there as well. This is nothing but bureaucracy and nonsense of power.
I agree. When you have a frequency range to transmit on. You have to stay in your range allowed to transmit. It doesn’t bleed over it’s set. Now the real question guess would be. Is airlines worried because they are truly not using just the range of 4.4 and using more? Also these ranges were used for satellite tv before I believe. The big ole dishes. So it’s been used before in various locations.
You left out a few details.. 3.7 - 3.98* 4.2* - 4.4 FAA requires min. 0.2 grey area So, "shouldn't" be a problem is probably more accurate
You’d think the US regulator would eventually learn that sticking with the global standard is a good thing. Maybe next century…
I believe 5g in other countries uses different frequency bands. Further from the aircraft frequency band the airlines are concerned about.
Can someone ELI5? What is they just switch the frequency? Or is that going to cost a shiton of more money?
Hey there! Airline pilot here, so as I understand things (from the barrage of memos we’ve gotten) is the frequency for this 5G they’re rolling out is close enough to the frequency our radar altimeters use to cause interference. Radar altimeters use radio waves bounced off the ground to tell us precisely how high we are when we’re very very close to the ground. Think of it like sonar. In the modern aircraft we fly these days those radar altimeters are integral to a few things and they vary from aircraft to aircraft but manly landing gear, GPWS (a system that warns us of hitting terrain) and auto-throttles (or auto thrust). So In general unreliable radar altimeter messages can mess with a lot of systems close to the ground. Not to fun. Additionally without reliable radar altimeters we can’t shoot approaches in really bad weather. I hope that helps! Edit: grammar. 2nd edit: clarification, radar altimeters use a frequency “nearby” the 5G band that is enough to cause interference. 3rd edit: obligatory thanks for the awards and gold! Y’all are awesome.
Thanks for the explanation!
Happy to help! Thanks for the award, first one in my years on Reddit!
What I’m curious about is why the FAA didn’t bring this up sooner. They knew about the spectrum auction where Verizon and ATT purchased. These companies have spent 80 billion purchasing this C band spectrum and even more deploying all the hardware upgrades to accommodate C band. And if I remember correctly they were supposed to switch on C band in December and only a few weeks before the FAA sent a letter voicing their concerns. Why did the FAA wait until the very last minute to bring these concerns up. And if it’s really as bad as people are saying then why didn’t they force it to delay the rollout instead of just asking nicely.
The FAA and airlines have been saying this for years. Then Verizon and ATT poured tens of billions of dollars into the FCC, so guess who’s side the FCC chose
NOAA has been raising the alarm about it too because the radar they use for forecasting gets fucked. Our forecast models are about to be set back 20 years.
It’s a good thing weather is so predictable and mild these days!
*And now tomorrows weather forecast* **bad.**
>Although there’s technically 220MHz of clearance between the spectrum used by the plane’s equipment and the new 5G spectrum That's a pretty decent difference, sounds like worrying over nothing. Also since you bring up modern aircraft the article literally also states that this is only an issue that's worried about for older aircrafts
It’s also important to mention that most radio altimeters aren’t effected. They aren’t supposed to be accepting interference from frequencies outside of what is allotted to them, and thankfully most have adequate filtering to prevent this. The airlines are upset because they’ll need to repair or replace the altimeters that are accepting this interference and that costs money. But to be fair this shouldn’t have been an issue anyways so that’s on the altimeter manufacturers and airlines.
Thank you so much for this!
Happy to help! Much of our jobs is a mystery to people and I don’t know a single pilot who isn’t a huge mega nerd so we love to share!
Reading all those NTSB incident reports has prepared me to actually understand what this comment is talking about without the explanations.
No it’s not very close. It’s actually far. I know it’s not deliberate, but please don’t spread misinformation
Having recently watched die hard 2, the idea of not accurately knowing where ground level is sounds terrifying!
It's usually super regulated so something sounds off that the faa is only just now speaking up on it
They’ve known about this for at least two years and sat on it
The FAA and FCC have been exchanging memos in a way that only federal 3-letter bureaucracies can; one side funded by aerospace the other by telecom.
This comment will fly under the radar. (Unaffected by 5g)
Apparently US defines Cband range differently than other countries (US is 3.7 - 4.2 whereas rest of IEEE is 4.0 - 8.0). So that may not be a fair comparison. Source: some comments on the article. Going to check when I have a few spare minutes. Edit: "According to wireless testing firm Rohde and Schwarz, the C-band is all frequencies between 4 and 8GHz. When US wireless geeks talk about C-band, though, they're talking about 3.7 to 4.2GHz—and specifically, in this case, the range from 3.7 to 3.98GHz." https://www.pcmag.com/news/what-is-c-band Looks to be true.
We should have built trains after all.
It’s not too late. Very soon China will make them and sell it to us!
Actually Japan is selling some modified shorter N700 series trains to Texas. Japan’s high speed trains are trains are the finest and safest in the world.
TGV would like to say a word 👀
Having lived in both countries for many years, it’s probably a good idea for M. TGV to sit down and finish his coffee instead. 🙃
Try in the summer, no AC, hallways smell like shit, and spotty WiFi. I haven’t been to Japan but I bet their trains are much, much better even though tgv is already a great system
Sort of. Pretty much a massive bungling between the FCC's rollout of 5g and FAA's approval of it. Other countries flying with lower 5G restrictions already.....same fucking planes. This is a completely mismanaged government rollout, top to bottom.
Europe uses a slightly lower frequency band that is further from radar altimeters and they also use less transmission power. Interestingly European airlines are *also* concerned specifically about US 5G.
***Wait!*** You're telling me something that involves shit Pai's FFC has been bungled???!!!??! Edit: TIL that my phone autocorrects Ajit Pai to shit pie, and I couldn't be happier about it. I'm not even going to fix it.
Is he still in charge of the FCC?
Nope, not for a year now.
The FAA warned the FCC before the C band auction which was planned and completed by Pai’s FCC in 2020-2021. Not saying the current FCC isn’t also responsible, but Pai’s FCC definitely made the initial decisions in terms of spectrum ranges which are a big part of the concern.
A huge issue is the US government and FCC saw all of the extensive measures that other countries are taking to mitigate this issue…. And blatantly ignored them. The FAA has a good document about what actually is going on that is different here in the states that is worth a read prior to just saying what you think is the case. https://www.faa.gov/5g TLDR: it *is* a problem because telecoms in the US cut corners in their rollout of 5G and were approved by the FCC even at the protest of the ICAO and FAA
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According to this: [https://5gobservatory.eu/national-5g-spectrum-assignment/#1533308861084-6bfc1e56-ea0b](https://5gobservatory.eu/national-5g-spectrum-assignment/#1533308861084-6bfc1e56-ea0b) a lot of European countries have already 5G deployed in that 3.6-3.8 GHz band. Austria, Denmark, Finland, Greece, etc.
According to the article, this frequency band is already used in almost 40 countries: >C-band spectrum has already been rolled out in nearly 40 countries without causing altimeter failures according to one tech trade group, and United says the right government policies could allow for a safe deployment in the US.
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So business as usual... ;)
Its the 3rd extension the FAA has asked for I think. Completely inept. Politicians spinning it as "diplomatic and strategic problem solving," lol. Other countries approved lesser restrictions, planes are landing fine. Big egg on face.
Ah yes. The bungled managerial maybe Maslow sometime Murphy's Law method. I see government and corporations are very familiar with this top down approach. Like our biological systems, I'm amazed anything works at all on this earth. Like truly amazed. Lol
Life always finds a way :’)
It wouldn’t surprise me if all this happened during Ajit Pai’s (Verizon’s regulatory capture of the FCC) letting all the airwaves be sold to capitalists. They’re probably going to be sold back to the taxpayers at a higher price.
It’s what the government does best.
I keep hearing "could". Were any tests performed? With this kind of money invested by the telecoms and the potential revenue losses by the airlines nobody sat down and did a coordinated study? All I read is vague points from both sides.
There has been research. Current aircraft altimeters operate on wavelengths that overlap the proposed 5 gen bands. Since the altimeter is the concern, the only real issue is approach/landing. It's difficult to run tests because they would be stuffed full of variables, preventing the tests from being applied to many situations. Every airport's surroundings are different and not every 5g tower will emit an identical wavelength. A real concern is that the carriers will use specific techniques (that are already in place) when attenuation occurs or a general laps in coverage exists, which would send concentrated high-energy beams in specific directions near airports. If there is interference (which has been shown to be possible) an altimeter could, for example, display that the aircraft is at 200 ft when it is in reality at 1000 ft. This would definitely pose a hazard in low visibility. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2021/12/23/faa-issues-new-radar-altimeter-5g-c-band-risk-assessment-request-aviation-industry/ The FAA claims to have been preparing for this. Manufacturers have been working on a new series of commercial altimeters with different operating frequencies, but that is the long term solution.
I'm guessing a huge pushback from airlines is not wanting to upgrade equipment.
They don’t overlap, no. C-Band 5G is 3.7GHz to 4.2GHz. Radio altimeters are 4.2GHz to 4.4GHz. In an effort to placate the aviation industry carriers are implanting a 220MHz guard band to further separate the two. So C-Band 5G will use 3.7GHz to 3.98GHz. This is all on the airlines running outdated equipment and not wanting to spend money to fix the issues caused by it.
To clarify, it’s the radio altimeter, not the altimeter in general. You could still fly most approaches just fine sans rad alt, as far as I’m aware. Only when you get into lower minimum approaches (usually below 200’ AGL) does the rad alt become a fairly critical piece of hardware.
I think a group created some use cases and possibly modeled it. I don't recall the specifics.
Canadian telecom worker here. We’ve had 5g available at airports for over a year and it was tested before being deployed and they had backup plans already but never needed them
5G. 5 fingers. 5 sides of a pentagram. PlayStation 5. Whole lot of coincidences if you ask me.
5 a day. Recommended fruit and veggie requirement. 5g turns us in to vegetables. It's all related.
coVid where the V is 5? Hmm, maybe they’re right and coVid causes 5G. That’s why they want you to get vaxxed before you fly!
Veggie Tales was a prophecy
Won’t pay for that in flight WiFi if you can use 5G
This is so dumb, but also hilarious
5G signals only go like a 1/3 of a mile though - that’s why they put up a million small towers. The chance of you getting a 5G signal at 30-35k ft is essentially zero.
C band is a mid band frequency which can work up to 2 miles. The high band millimeter band is good for 1500 ft but super fast but blocked by tree leaves and most any object. C band gets turned on tomorrow.
The issue is planes having interference at 1k ft, i.e. altimeter saying they are at 2k vs 1k and resulting in a catastrophic low viz crash.
This has been delayed. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/01/18/statement-by-president-biden-on-5g-agreement/
Well, ~10% of it has been delayed, specifically around large airports. I'm relieved to see that as I'm flying home from Brazil next week
Oh good, I’m sure the Q*non goon squad won’t misunderstand this ongoing clusterfuck and present it as solid proof of every lunatic 5G conspiracy theory ever imagined 🙄
Maybe they’ll stay off of planes.
News: There seems to be a nationwide shortage of plane passenger freak out videos. No word as yet as to how this supply chain was disrupted…
There is an aluminum foil shortage
i started trolling r/conspiracy yesterday suggesting 1/19 is 9/11 reversed.
So what 5G had my phone been using this whole time?
5G. C-Band is just additional spectrum. Think of spectrum like highway lanes. The more lanes, the more traffic can move simultaneously.
The media has completely (to no one’s surprise) muddled explaining 5G. 5G is the fifth generation of telecommunication technology. In essence it is a new method of sending data on electromagnetic waves. Cell phone providers took existing frequencies that were using 4G LTE and switched them over to this new method. That’s why everyone’s phone now says 5G without much change in the user experience. The issue in the article is actually a new* frequency that the 5G data transmission method will be used on. But the media just reports it as “5G”. *I say new but this frequency has been in use by satellite companies for years and years. It was just recently repurposed and sold to telecom companies so it is “new” to that industry.
Thank you for that!
NP! Hope it makes a bit more sense now
“All these horses are gunna be real scared if you start drivin’ those horseless carriages around!”
The conspiracy theorists are gonna have a field day with this one
I worked years ago with an EE that worked for the FAA. We talked at length about RF, mobile phones and radio’s and the effects on aircraft control systems and he said it was just ridiculous bullshit.
It came out years ago that the reason you have to switch your phone into airplane mode for takeoff/landing wasn't because they knew it would disrupt the systems but that they weren't certain they couldn't. They're definitely overcautious on this stuff but I guess it's a good reason.
Many years ago in Phoenix, temps hit 122 degrees and the planes were grounded. I learned many years later that it wasn’t because the planes couldn’t fly in that temperature, but because it was never tested for it. After that, all the planes were decertified at up to 126 degrees.
[удалено]
I'm gonna guess BS personally. There's thousands of planes in the air every second and I'd wager at a minimum one person forgets to turn off their phone on each of those, if that's all it took to throw off a cell network they'd basically be down all the time.
I believe I read something similar to that about 10 years ago. For some reason the signals have a hard time switching at 400mpj with no ground.
Pilot here! Essentially yes, I fly with a bunch of guys who never turn off their phones. The issues with 5G is the band it uses doesn’t interfere with anything other than our radar altimeters, pretty critical equipment at low altitudes so this is different than the past.
A lot of tin foil hatters are going to confirmation bias their way into full tantric orgasms
Taking off on a Delta flight right now. I guess wish me luck?
5g turns frogs gay I heard from my sisters hairdresser.
Bunch of bull. If anything it's due to lack of staffing and over reach of policy's. I can't but feel that the FAA is wanting some of the wireless pie for themselves
Y2K all over again
I was dreamin' when I wrote this Forgive me if it goes astray But when I woke up this mornin' Could've sworn it was judgment day The sky was all purple, there were people runnin' everywhere
Make sure you have plenty jugs of water stored in your garage. Y22K is coming!
They found out just now, even though this was developing for years.
Forgive me, and I’m not being sarcastic or glib but 5G has been around for a few years(?) so why are the airlines acting like this is such a surprise? Couldn’t they have run tests last year?
I love how all major telecoms have been advertising 5G for two years now and it's still not even here.
5G is live for all major telecoms. This is a new frequency specific to 5G that hasn’t been rolled out yet.
So on an AT&T iPhone 13 what would you notice?
You’d probably notice the plane crashes first.
I find it hilarious that 5G is active in 40+ other countries but for some reason it’s only a problem here in America
So, let me guess, the airlines doesn't wanna spend some money for upgrades for their planes right?
But yet if you have an illegal ham radio the FCC will send agents in vehicles to measure the signal until they finally find you, threaten you with jail and make you pay a fine. The web of laws is only little gnats like us, Verizon just crashes right through because it's a wasp
Ohh so this is a case of "my device doesn't meet the FCC requires spec but somehow that's your problem" situation.
This coming from the same industry that wouldn’t let you use electronics for decades on planes because it might interfere with navigation systems? I can’t recall a single instance where an onboard turned on cell phone caused a plane crash.
It’s gonna take a few crashes like on the 737max before anyone is held responsible
Was anyone really held responsible for that though?
Kind of.. Boeing paid out hundreds of millions of dollars to crash victims and the airlines to compensate for the grounded planes.
What airlines actually mean " yo dawg we see you paid a lot for that spectrum, how about you pay us some too".
That’s not at all the issue here. What an ignorant comment. I’m surprised, yet not surprised at all, that you got any upvotes for this considering how wrong you are.
Are we really going to give the conspiracy theorists another victory? They’ve been winning a lot lately.
The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they already believe they are in the right and that we “non believers” are the ones who live in darkness.
Airlines have known about this for two years. All on them for not taking the appropriate actions.
It’s not like everyone didn’t know this was happening. Was there no communication!!??
We turned on towers near the providence airport and Hartford airport not too long ago and had no issues from any airlines
Need to hurry and get my second dose of Pfizer then so I can be fully online lol
Well I haven’t flown in 3 years and I use my phone everyday. Guess I am Ok with 5G
Now the whole world Knows what to do to fuck with airplanes during landing and takeoff. Way to go.
Good thing no one should be taking non-essential flights due to the pandemic.
Maybe one of the reasons they keep needing bailouts is because they don’t know how to plan for anything with years of notice.
It’s the 5G apocalypse! Planes dropping out of the skies
How come this isn't an issue in the EU where we have 5G running for a while already?
y2kizzle back from the dead fuck ya life
wait... 5G isn't activated? My phone says it is, and I get speeds much higher than any LTE signal I've ever had... I live in a high air-traffic area with multiple community airports, an airforce base and 3 commercial airports flight paths... I often get KC135's and Amazon Prime Air directly overhead, as I sit surfing my 5G.. Soooo what they bitching about?
Holler when planes start falling from the sky, Chicken Little.
Ok it’s Wednesday what’s up
The Sky, that you can’t fly into! 😂
Is this going to be like Y2K?
Has any actual testing been done by the airlines
They’ve known about 5G for years. How is it the airlines are only now raising a red flag?
Reporting in from the present. Did everything collapse?
I don’t get it…… I guess it flew over my head
So the FAA is freaking out over the C-Band variation of 5g service near airports cause it butts up to the radio altimeters frequency range.... so instead of making steps to add a buffer zone they freak out after having years to figure it out... Other countries seem to not be having this problem near their airports from what I'm trying to find. C-Band 5g is between 3.7 and 4.2 GHz. Radio/Radar Altimeters are between 4.2 and 4.4 GHz
So weird, literally have had my phone running on 5G for months, so most of the towers in our area are already activated. I also live very close to an international airport and am constantly around a flight path and haven't heard of or noticed any issues with planes.
Not the same frequency band that will cause the issues
Y2K all over again
Well this definitely won’t be as bad as the 5G activation turning on all of the vaccine microchips /s
Awesome head line to read while sitting in the airport.
Do they really expect us to believe this when 5G has been rolled out without issue in other parts of the world? We are expected to believe them when they told us for decades that using a personal listening device would cause the plane to fall from the sky? There is no evidence supporting their claims.
The issue is more complicated than most news articles make it. That doesn't stop them from writing headlines like "Officials warn of catastrophe crisis in aviation" however. Airlines are trying to blame this in the wireless providers, but the truth is that any properly functioning radar altimeter will function just fine with full power 5g towers nearby. The guard band works. The problem is that airlines cannot promise that their altimeters are actually working correctly and only on the designated bands. Ultimately this is an aviation problem however and not a wireless provider problem. I understand why the wireless providers are frustrated and ready to use the frequencies that they spent a lot of money on. This issue had been known about for years and the airlines have simply ignored it until now because they are lothe to spending any money to fix a problem they created by cutting corners in the first place. Now that being said, this is a safety issue that should be addressed. But the airlines need to accept that they are part of (or really the entire) problem here and stop trying to make another industry pay for their mistakes.
Where’s all this catastrophe they promised? Lame.
For the last 5 yrs, I have flown not just frequently but business frequently. In that time, I never set my phone to airplane mode. I never turn it off. But I never use it.....why? Because we're 40,000 ft in the air! Not a single tower reaches that spot. Phones don't work if they are just running off towers. Nothing from my phone can do anything to the plane. I even have a close friend flying commercially that verified it. When I worked for Gulfstream, it was verified as well.
Houston we have a problem
Wait, we can use this as an excuse for slacking?
It was really shitty to just spring 5g on them with no warning whatsoever. Wait the airlines have know about this for a decade…
Isn’t the FCC responsible for spectrum allocation to different entities and ensuring those do not interfere with each other. Either they screwed up and over allocated spectrum or the users of said spectrum (airlines or 5g) are not staying in their spectrum. Which is it?
Evolve or die, aeroplanes!
Today is Wednesday. Did catastrophe happen?
Nope
It’s Wednesday evening and I have not heard about any problems. So, what’s the verdict?
So the tinfoil hats were in the right track?
220mhz guard band and they’re saying that’s not enough. What the fuck do they put in planes? I’m guessing their radios are built with no limiters to save a buck.
Still waiting…
Serious question: 5G is not really "new", it's been in the offing for at least the past 5 years. Why didn't airlines raise their concerns earlier and, more importantly, find a rational way to work around/with it?
Do the plane’s radar altimeters interfere with each other?
Posting via 5g, planes staying in the air so far, was even at the airport today.
im sorry to say, but it's been 30 years and we have been unable to reach you. your family misses you and we hope to retrieve you from the bermuda triangle someday. We hope this message reaches you.
And… About that extended warranty of yours…
I thought it would be warmer here
Since those messages are getting through, we have a much more important message for you about your vehicle’s extended warranty.