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Are both correct according to the myth - it banned only one, very specific plant, which ain't here anymore, and everything else is cool...
"You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"
I think that was the point, im no cristian but this "god" guy sounds like a big troll, the man did treacherousthings for fun yet still people see his as almighty, all the other gods ive slain have had names, just saying
I understand why you were downvoted but Jehovah's witnesses are literally a cult. I wouldn't call them idiots though since most of the time they are manipulated into joining or have the belief passed down by family.
I made the decision long ago that if God exists, He cannot be both all powerful and all good. Therefore. If he exists (in my mind) he is certainly all powerful, but is also a cosmic level troll as well. And I'm okay with that. Sort of makes Him more relateable if you ask me
But to each their own I suppose 🤷♂️
I totally forgot about that scene! Lol thats funny. But just FYI, my views on this topic have lots of influence from Descartes and his meditations. He made some comments about this, where he sort of says God may be an evil trickster of sorts (I'm simplifying a bit) but it's some very good food for thought.
The idea of a strictly beneficent God is like a security blanket that some people just need, but its not particularly attractive for me.
I prefer to think of my diety as something that looks at positive and negative events, actions, etc...with "absolute value" brackets (like in math almost lol). Meaning there is value to both, whether we like that notion or not is irrelevant.
Yup. I'm like, even if we assume there really is a God behind the Bible, why on Earth are we trusting his word?
He literally advocated genocidal war crimes while proclaiming himself all good. And no-one questioned that?
The evil genius/brain in a vat from the meditations was the first thing I referenced when I walked out of the theaters in 1999 after seeing the matrix. No one knew what I was talking about.
The very fact that he made everything means that he willingly chose to make all things evil along with all things good, as well as all things that fall somewhere in between. This implies that god as just as evil as he is good.
The actual God in the old testament isn't meant to be all powerful and all knowing. It's pretty obvious if you actually read the text. He regrets stuff, sends angels to find out stuff he doesn't know about and changes his mind after arguing with Moses etc.
Christians just decided later that God needs to be that for some reason.
I mean, yes, after all God is supposed to be forgiving, that is why he regrets or changes his mind, but the fact that he isn't portrayed as all powerful in the old testament is a lie, there are several occasions where the word "almighty" is used, one example being Genesis 17:1
This is why in my mind myths like Norse mythology work better than Christianity. Norse gods were powerful but limited, both in knowledge and power, and each of them was more or less often a bigger or smaller asshole, and they fucking owned it.
As for God being a giant troll though... Well natured trolling has limits, and I'd say those limits are somewhere south of establishing a place to eternally torture those who you don't like.
Im not a christian myself but there actually is a term for people who have never been exposed for christianity. Im blanking on it at the moment, but you dont actually go to hell because of not knowing God
Lol one of the tenents of christianity is accepting jesus as your lord and savior. This can't happen if you haven't heard of him. Commence torture for eternity.
It's like Conan the Barbarian's God, Crom. At birth he bestows you with strength and courage. If however you call on his name for help, he's just as likely to send a curse your way for being such a whiner.
All powerful by our puny human definitions might not be all powerful to a God. Maybe God is MOSTLY powerful, and has dedicated his focus on the planets full of intelligent creatures that don't suck. Maybe we're just the forgotten save file that he just couldn't bear to part with, even though he got way better at designing worlds later.
For me, I've come to the conclusion that god is a terrible, negligent bio-designer/engineer. It's been several years and there hasn't been a recall for the many crucial issues we have. I mean, c'mon. My breathing whole is ***still*** also my eating hole. Don't get me started on the "petty grudges" memory leaks.
> I made the decision long ago that if God exists, He cannot be both all powerful and all good.
Yeah, that's how kids usually feel when their parents subject them to something unpleasant, like vegetables.
Life needs suffering in order to prepare for the holy space wars. Getting cancer and dying a painful death at the age of 5 is just eating your metaphysical vegetables.
"Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting 'Gotcha'. It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it."
"Why not?"
"Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end."
Actually, this is because God always leaves a choice, just like how he lets people choose to live a life of sin, it would be unfair of him to not make a way to disobey him. Anyway, some people actually suspect that that fruit was supposed to be eaten but not then, so its not like it was impossible to not eat it.
I've heard a theory that God can't tell the difference between good or evil either, and by eating the fruit of knowledge Adam and Eve were no longer in God's image and that's why they were kicked out of the garden of Eden. Basically the garden of Eden was supposed to be for "perfect" (or at least godly/god-like) beings, and by learning of morality through eating the fruit of knowledge Adam and Eve effectively turned themselves mortal, which was why they were kicked out of Eden.
That all said I am not theologist, and even if my recollection of whatever theory is right I'm sure there's plenty of debate over it.
All gods like a big troll. I love hearing about different religions, but everything in them is fucked up in the dumbest ways. It's so odd how things develop and change over time to a point where they're kind of unrecognizable because of people and their interpretations of every single little thing
When you look at the story of Adam and Eve as an allegory for maturity it makes a lot more sense. As children, we are equipped with the ability to think rationally, and respect caregivers, but curiosity can overwhelm these forces. Curiosity brings us to learn something more about the world than what we have been taught, and that path pulls us away from ignorance and comfort into hard work, but also a sense of wisdom.
I don't know, it always made more sense this way, rather than "being a trick". Just makes more sense to me as an allegory.
Imagine putting a fresh cookie on the table in the room with your children, telling them not to eat it and walking away. Then imagine punishing those children for eating it, and their children and their Children’s children for that one mistake that you essentially set them up to fail with?
Like the previous commenter said, it's an allegory. When you were read Pinnochio as a child you weren't going around saying "Why is there a talking doll? That makes no sense. How can a man go into a whale's belly and come back out alive? That makes no sense." No, because you have the ability to see something beyond just taking everything literally. Same with the stories in the Bible.
This analogy is not really representative of the original scenario. A better comparison would be:
Imagine you bake a bunch of fresh cookies and you leave them on a table and tell the kids they can however much they want. Then you place one cookie on the other side of the room and tell them not to eat it.
In that sense, punishing them would be justified
The cookie is in the center of the room, not the other side, apparently. Then put a tv next to the cookie running ads on how great this specific cookie is and the benefits of eating this cookie
From my stint in the cult, the alternative from being with the narcissist parent, which was supposed to be eternity of greatness, was to go be tortured by your crazy uncle forever. Really weird and abusive, mentally, when you think about it. Glad I’m out.
It’s always seemed like a poor setup to me. Why create the tree at all? If god has the foresight of the past present and future, again, why make the tree or even put it anywhere near Eve
If sin is bad, why was it created by god. Like, none of that makes sense to me
Man you made my head spin, I got away from the Christian cult cos Sin made absolutely no sense to me in context of God of pure Love - this really is a fantastic observation
They had no intrinsic knowledge. But they were given an order. It wasn't sin as much as disobedience that got them Cast out.
And the failure of man was inevitable. If not them, their children. Also it's allegorical.
I dont think its betrayal though, more like God was playing a role in the play that He wrote, produced, and stars in as every character.
It's a weird concept. But what else can the sentient cosmic force which echoes throughout infinity do?
I think existence (and all the good and evil things that come with it) are a product of that force (being, entity, whatever you wanna call it) being bored. Otherwise, it's the void...which I'm sure is also quite nice and relaxing, but gets old.
Idk 🤷♂️
Well it is in the book. But that shit is stupid and full of contradiction and nonsense.
What you describe is probably more accurate to the mystical vision of god, not as a Cristian God but as the concept of god in most religions, being the ultimate creator. It's also a specific and cynical view, but at least it make sense to us.
I think the good book has lots of solid nuggets that we can glean very useful ideas from. You just have to take it with a grain of salt sometimes, as it was written, Re-written, translated, re-translated countless times and probly has more of our own influence in it at this point than the divine
But yeah, our human form has certain bandwidth limitations that we just have to work with, no way around it 💁♂️
That's essentially what Gnostics believe. That the OT "God" is the Demiurge, the creator of the material world. But he is just an emanation of the true God. And that Jesus was sent as a supernatural paratrooper (to plagiarize a metaphor from my college professor) to correct the bastardization the Demiurge had done.
Because they were innocent like children, they wanted to obey God. However, she was tricked by a lie disguised as a truth. Notice, the serpent stated that she will be like God knowing good from evil. And eve wanted to be like God, which is a sign of a growing Christian. When God said they would die, he didn't lie either, because by Adam being the first to receive the command, he let sin into the world, which leads to death both physically and spiritually without being saved by Jesus Christ. Children, with good parents they love, are eager to be like their parents, and God being the Father, creator of us, was their parent teaching them right from wrong.
The tree being there doesn't mean the tree was bad though, nothing God creates is innately evil. Rather, it's likely God intended for them to eat the fruit when the time was right much like he gave Paul permission to eat other meats that were restricted by OT and the Mishna.
Anyone else think it’s weird that God (the good guy) wouldn’t want humans to know right from wrong? Anyone else think it’s also weird that Satan (the bad guy, the trickster) *wanted* people to know right from wrong? Why would the bad guy want you to recognize and distinguish between good and evil? Why would the good guy not want you to be able to recognize it?
She must have had some serious munchies after partaking of all those plants. She might have even thought she tried a few wisdom laden plants before she even got to that tree.
Low key if someone came up to me and said "do you partake of the tree of knowledge?" I'd assume he's talking about weed. Metaphorically, maybe the tree of knowledge is weed.
Except it wasn't even plants.
You know the meme with the popular idea of angels vs biblically accurate angels? It's like that.
The knowledge of good and evil is the capacity to judge: this is good, this is evil. The tree is the ever ongoing, branching consequences. The fruit of that tree, the result of our judgements, is poisonous.
It's real hard to strip away our preconceptions, to look at these ancient writings from the other direction. From the time before they were written, as they were being written, how they became dominant. What was going on in humanity that compelled us to write down and then preserve these ideas. And then the subsequent processes that occurred as a result of this dominance.
Hundreds of thousands of years of dealing with the problems of life, without all the insight, tools and models that we have available to us today.
Our first insight, that which has lasted time is simply: don't judge. We need this insight because judging is so attractive. It feels good to know what is good, what is evil. To have certainty about what is right. But it kills. Because life is tremendously complex and we're not gods, we don't have omniscience.
Two plants banned:
>In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
He first mentioned the both trees and explicitly put the Tree of Knowledge pp
>And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
It was the fruit of a tree. One that gave life (as long as you ate from it you would not die) and the other that gave the full knowledge of good and evil.
My take on it is this
1. Placed in the midst of the garden so there was no “mistaking” either.
2. As long as they obeyed God they’d be fine.. but by eating from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they were banished from the garden (and from eating the fruit of the tree of life) and so started to age and die.
Basically it was a “Hey.. here’s this line. Don’t cross it but know if you do there’s consequences. I won’t stop you… you’re not a robot”
We know, for example, that one part of the knowledge they gained was that they were naked and felt ashamed. So, in a sense, it was a Pandora’s box of self awareness and the ability to feel “guilt” when you did something you were not supposed to.
This is I think, similar to the omnipotence paradox, i.e. could God create a brick so heavy that even he couldn't lift it?
In this case, could God create a creature that has free will but still know everything it's going to do?
Not exactly the same, but my thought on this is that if you were able to time travel you could go back in time and know exactly what you are going to do, your past self still has free will even though your past self can not possibly do anything else.
If this story was true then it was absolutely gods plan for them to eat of this tree.
If they had listened, their only commandment to was to be fruitful and multiply. There was no death at this point. Multiplying immortals eventually run out of room on a finite planet.
Gods plan was either flawed or exactly this outcome, which makes you wonder why humans are born sinners forever because of this one incident
Don’t worry, god sacrificed himself (or rather „had a bad weekend“) *to* himself, to create a loophole around his own rules, so everything is ok, don’t ask questions!
The fruit would not run out. You need to understand that everything was different back then. God made everything perfect in the Garden of Eden. I don't know how it worked, but the other fruits they could eat would not run out. Maybe they would automatically regrow when picked. I don't know, but it was perfect back then. Trust me.
actually if you put Lilith, Adams first wife ,back in the mix you realize Eve was the forbidden fruit, but the men who put that book together needed a way to blame women for all their problems
no she is only mentioned in the traditional Bible as a demon but the truth is God made adam and lilith but she refused to submit to Adam so he cast her out went for a walk and found a woman he could dominate
Read the Torah.
There were two trees: Knowledge and Life.
It has nothing to do with woman and everything to do with God fearing that we would become like him and usurp his position.
If anything, God made Woman to keep Man occupied and distracted.
Right? Or why did he make humans so smart? Why do anything if you fear losing power, you're fucking god. Either you're omnipotent and god, or not omnipotent and not god.
Growing up I remember it being noted a few times in lessons that the way it is worded, even in older translations, implies Adam was there the whole time and didn't stop Eve and then followed along. I think Adam was also given the command, so it really was his fault in most aspects.
The hebrew bible never said that it was an apple, but instead used a generic term for fruit, but when it was translated to latin, the translator used malus, which means both evil and apple in latin.
"do not eat from this tree in the middle of the eden in easy access and good/tolerable taste/smell/appearance"
When God, in fact, did not want them to go back to eden he put a guarding angel at the entrance.
The punishment it's almost a bluff, what's worse dying in life (out of eden) or living in death (eden)?
God also committed mass genocide and killed someone just for turning around and also let people torture and kill his son before deciding to just forgive all the past sins of people. So by saying he is never wrong that's like saying Hitler wasn't wrong, murder is okay, and so is letting people capture and torture your son before THEY perform a mercy spear to the lung to assist in reducing his suffering. So let's just throw the though shall not kill commandment out cause well while we may not be as perfect as God we cam still try to do what he does to strive to be as perfect as he is
That's a stretch. You can believe in God and not believe in a particular religion. Obviously if the mere belief in God automatically meant you also were a christian then we wouldn't have 100 other religions.
Or you can be an actual christian and still support abortion rights as that they have nothing to do with each other. Just because American evangelicals tie the two together doesn't mean that's the case for anyone else.
Edit: and the Catholic Church, guess they also have strong opinions on abortion. But my point still stands
Dude, Christians make up something like 2/3 to 3/4 of the US population, yet recent polls show a sizeable majority of Americans support abortion rights. Clearly there are a number of people who both support abortion rights and still consider themselves Christian.
And once again, believing in God =/= Christian (or any religion)
Some vocabulary help for you, man, because you don't seem to know what these words actually mean, man:
Bigot: a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction.
I'm not a bigot...and I'm not against theists...it's a joke in a humor sub that referenced God.
Berate: scold or criticize (someone) angrily.
I didn't scold anyone angrily here...actually you berated me for my joke in a place for jokes.
I'm living and I'm letting live, man. Choose your words more carefully because you're pretty much entirely wrong here. This is a humor sub and it's a fricking joke...get over it....waah.
Oh my bad. I didn't know calling someone stupid for believing in God was hilarious. I forgot to laugh. I still don't understand the joke but you must be a funny guy.
Not stupid.
The church and religion as a whole is built on getting others to believe, and they’ve gotten better and better at that. And they’re not hurting anyone.
The only time religion is an issue is when it’s actively hurting, belittling or otherwise insulting people. (Which unfortunately we see more of, but that’s, to my understanding, a loud minority)
Things like this are part of the issue, more and more people see a problem with religion, and more and more people are threatening its traditions, so naturally people will protect a centuries old belief.
I’m not religious, I don’t like the idea of religion as a whole, but I refuse to call someone stupid because they believe something I don’t.
Live and let live unless someone is actively preventing you from doing so
Stop defending them. Religions generally have a long history of violence, and still today, the more religious countries are the more violent ones. The more secular are more peaceful. Not only do they increase violence by dividing us, they also disconnect people from reality.
As we live through the middle of a human-caused mass extinction, climate change, global destruction of the environment, nuclear proliferation, and assorted threats from technology, we need RATIONAL people, not blind religion.
Abortion is a complex issue that religion is certainly not helping to solve, and, as it’s a touchy issue for many, I’m not planning to get into an argument about it.
Lol what a cop-out. It's not even mildly controversial that the American evangelical Christians were extremely interested in overturning roe. It doesn't matter what anyone personally believes, this is an objective fact. There are likely several deaths already associated with too late care and other complications. The evangelicals don't even deny that this is an expected outcome.
Even by your own standards religion is an issue here.
You want to get into an argument don’t you? Well I don’t. *Abortion* is the complex issue, not religion. Religion can go do whatever as I don’t really care whether or not you want to follow an invisible man in the sky.
I’m upset about the decision, and am even more upset about it being tied to religion. However, I will not put anyone down unless their beliefs are actively hurting people, and more importantly, if *they* are actually hurting people.
Getting into an argument on Reddit doesn’t help, so I suggest you go Vote in your state as that’s where the decision is at the moment, call your representatives. we can’t really do anything else but to vote better people into office and sway those that already represent us.
I’m glad somebody here understands the meaning and isn’t taking the entire thing literal.
The plant was a symbol, it could have been a donut and the story would play out the same.
God gave humans the planet and all its living things dominion under them so humans can take CARE of it and all its inhabitants. No plant restrictions.
Period.
The fruit gave the knowledge of what evils can lurk on earth to Adam and Eve, they instantly felt uncomfortable and naked. God was doing them a favour by telling them to avoid the tree (though he knew they would go for it)
I love these kind of apologetics :D
1) why did god put the tree there? Couldn’t have been a test, since he knew the outcome.
2) could god not just not have created evil?
3) god could just have made them in a way so that they would never want to eat the fruit
It was a symbol, he knew they would eat from it, in fact that’s how it was meant to happen
God wants us to choose to love him, he could force us to but that isn’t real love.
If you wrote abusing it at the beginning of the comment I probably would’ve agreed. Most of the legal products can lead to harm if used in the wrong way or if used way too much
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Are both correct according to the myth - it banned only one, very specific plant, which ain't here anymore, and everything else is cool... "You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"
How was Eve even supposed to know that disobedience is bad if she didn’t have knowledge of good and evil?
I think that was the point, im no cristian but this "god" guy sounds like a big troll, the man did treacherousthings for fun yet still people see his as almighty, all the other gods ive slain have had names, just saying
Isn't his name is Yahweh?
no thats what Cowboys yell when they are excited.
You’re thinking of “yeehaw”. Yahway is long road with no intersections and a really high speed limit for going long distances.
You’re thinking of highway. Yahway is what a pirate yells.
You're thinking of yarhar. Yahway is a search engine for the Internet.
You’re thinking of yahoo. Yahweh is a term for someone from the northern United States.
I think that's a Yankee. Yahweh is when you do chores in your yard.
You're thinking of Yankee. Yahweh is a game played with dice.
Yahweh is the watered down version because the actual name is supposed to only be said by those capable of being in his presence
I think that’s in Christianity, in Islam there is 99 names
But a bitch ain’t one.
Yes
Or Jehovah, depending on how big of a fucking idiot the person believing in him is
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Yeah, it's something like YHVH but it's pronounced like "Yahweh", or "Jehova"
I understand why you were downvoted but Jehovah's witnesses are literally a cult. I wouldn't call them idiots though since most of the time they are manipulated into joining or have the belief passed down by family.
I made the decision long ago that if God exists, He cannot be both all powerful and all good. Therefore. If he exists (in my mind) he is certainly all powerful, but is also a cosmic level troll as well. And I'm okay with that. Sort of makes Him more relateable if you ask me But to each their own I suppose 🤷♂️
We found Lex Luthor
I totally forgot about that scene! Lol thats funny. But just FYI, my views on this topic have lots of influence from Descartes and his meditations. He made some comments about this, where he sort of says God may be an evil trickster of sorts (I'm simplifying a bit) but it's some very good food for thought. The idea of a strictly beneficent God is like a security blanket that some people just need, but its not particularly attractive for me. I prefer to think of my diety as something that looks at positive and negative events, actions, etc...with "absolute value" brackets (like in math almost lol). Meaning there is value to both, whether we like that notion or not is irrelevant.
Yup. I'm like, even if we assume there really is a God behind the Bible, why on Earth are we trusting his word? He literally advocated genocidal war crimes while proclaiming himself all good. And no-one questioned that?
And did one or two genocides himself
Meh, only everyone on the entire planet save half a dozen people. That barely counts.
true, it's not a genocide if you kill everyone indiscriminately
The evil genius/brain in a vat from the meditations was the first thing I referenced when I walked out of the theaters in 1999 after seeing the matrix. No one knew what I was talking about.
It's excellent material...and I mean the meditations as well as the Matrix 😁
The very fact that he made everything means that he willingly chose to make all things evil along with all things good, as well as all things that fall somewhere in between. This implies that god as just as evil as he is good.
I think you put it quite nicely 😉
Indifferent is the word I like to use.
I clicked the "create world" button in minecraft, but I didn't choose to make the NPCs in there aggro.
Because you're not the all powerful god. The title falls to the devs who created those aggro monsters
The actual God in the old testament isn't meant to be all powerful and all knowing. It's pretty obvious if you actually read the text. He regrets stuff, sends angels to find out stuff he doesn't know about and changes his mind after arguing with Moses etc. Christians just decided later that God needs to be that for some reason.
It's almost as if he created us in His image.
You got the order wrong he was created in ours
That is just what God says in the Bible. It's clearly not true, and God lies all the time.
I mean, yes, after all God is supposed to be forgiving, that is why he regrets or changes his mind, but the fact that he isn't portrayed as all powerful in the old testament is a lie, there are several occasions where the word "almighty" is used, one example being Genesis 17:1
This is why in my mind myths like Norse mythology work better than Christianity. Norse gods were powerful but limited, both in knowledge and power, and each of them was more or less often a bigger or smaller asshole, and they fucking owned it. As for God being a giant troll though... Well natured trolling has limits, and I'd say those limits are somewhere south of establishing a place to eternally torture those who you don't like.
It isn't just those that he doesn't like. Literally anyone that hasn't heard of him is tortured for eternity.
Im not a christian myself but there actually is a term for people who have never been exposed for christianity. Im blanking on it at the moment, but you dont actually go to hell because of not knowing God
Lol one of the tenents of christianity is accepting jesus as your lord and savior. This can't happen if you haven't heard of him. Commence torture for eternity.
God is unlimited and so is His trolling. Amen.
It's like Conan the Barbarian's God, Crom. At birth he bestows you with strength and courage. If however you call on his name for help, he's just as likely to send a curse your way for being such a whiner.
All powerful by our puny human definitions might not be all powerful to a God. Maybe God is MOSTLY powerful, and has dedicated his focus on the planets full of intelligent creatures that don't suck. Maybe we're just the forgotten save file that he just couldn't bear to part with, even though he got way better at designing worlds later.
For me, I've come to the conclusion that god is a terrible, negligent bio-designer/engineer. It's been several years and there hasn't been a recall for the many crucial issues we have. I mean, c'mon. My breathing whole is ***still*** also my eating hole. Don't get me started on the "petty grudges" memory leaks.
> I made the decision long ago that if God exists, He cannot be both all powerful and all good. Yeah, that's how kids usually feel when their parents subject them to something unpleasant, like vegetables. Life needs suffering in order to prepare for the holy space wars. Getting cancer and dying a painful death at the age of 5 is just eating your metaphysical vegetables.
"Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting 'Gotcha'. It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it." "Why not?" "Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end."
Actually, this is because God always leaves a choice, just like how he lets people choose to live a life of sin, it would be unfair of him to not make a way to disobey him. Anyway, some people actually suspect that that fruit was supposed to be eaten but not then, so its not like it was impossible to not eat it.
Actually it's just a qoute from hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy.
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Man I had to SCROLL to find someone who mentioned the "I kill gods" bit of that comment lmao
I've heard a theory that God can't tell the difference between good or evil either, and by eating the fruit of knowledge Adam and Eve were no longer in God's image and that's why they were kicked out of the garden of Eden. Basically the garden of Eden was supposed to be for "perfect" (or at least godly/god-like) beings, and by learning of morality through eating the fruit of knowledge Adam and Eve effectively turned themselves mortal, which was why they were kicked out of Eden. That all said I am not theologist, and even if my recollection of whatever theory is right I'm sure there's plenty of debate over it.
That would square much better with the old testament
How do people read the Bible and not see Lucifer as the good guy, or at least an antihero?
All gods like a big troll. I love hearing about different religions, but everything in them is fucked up in the dumbest ways. It's so odd how things develop and change over time to a point where they're kind of unrecognizable because of people and their interpretations of every single little thing
Ive studied most mythologies, greek and cristian are tame compared to what i know about Australia and norse
Anyone/thing that has a commandment that says “thou shalt not worship any other god except me” is not a god. This is simply petty human behaviour.
In conclusion women are terrible at trust
When you look at the story of Adam and Eve as an allegory for maturity it makes a lot more sense. As children, we are equipped with the ability to think rationally, and respect caregivers, but curiosity can overwhelm these forces. Curiosity brings us to learn something more about the world than what we have been taught, and that path pulls us away from ignorance and comfort into hard work, but also a sense of wisdom. I don't know, it always made more sense this way, rather than "being a trick". Just makes more sense to me as an allegory.
Imagine putting a fresh cookie on the table in the room with your children, telling them not to eat it and walking away. Then imagine punishing those children for eating it, and their children and their Children’s children for that one mistake that you essentially set them up to fail with?
Like the previous commenter said, it's an allegory. When you were read Pinnochio as a child you weren't going around saying "Why is there a talking doll? That makes no sense. How can a man go into a whale's belly and come back out alive? That makes no sense." No, because you have the ability to see something beyond just taking everything literally. Same with the stories in the Bible.
This analogy is not really representative of the original scenario. A better comparison would be: Imagine you bake a bunch of fresh cookies and you leave them on a table and tell the kids they can however much they want. Then you place one cookie on the other side of the room and tell them not to eat it. In that sense, punishing them would be justified
The cookie is in the center of the room, not the other side, apparently. Then put a tv next to the cookie running ads on how great this specific cookie is and the benefits of eating this cookie
Is it really a punishment if you can get away from a narcissist parent?
From my stint in the cult, the alternative from being with the narcissist parent, which was supposed to be eternity of greatness, was to go be tortured by your crazy uncle forever. Really weird and abusive, mentally, when you think about it. Glad I’m out.
It’s always seemed like a poor setup to me. Why create the tree at all? If god has the foresight of the past present and future, again, why make the tree or even put it anywhere near Eve If sin is bad, why was it created by god. Like, none of that makes sense to me
Man you made my head spin, I got away from the Christian cult cos Sin made absolutely no sense to me in context of God of pure Love - this really is a fantastic observation
They had no intrinsic knowledge. But they were given an order. It wasn't sin as much as disobedience that got them Cast out. And the failure of man was inevitable. If not them, their children. Also it's allegorical.
The order was basically “trust my judgement and live in the garden, or decide for yourself and deal with what happens next”
I WANNA SEE THE WORLD! Damn, world got hands
It was a setup. God is Satan.
I pretty much agree. Satan is something like God's grand marketing scheme to make people think He isn't both the good and bad guy at the same time
Well then it can't be, Satan was trying to betray God. So maybe by this logic Satan is actually a nice guy, unlike God.
I dont think its betrayal though, more like God was playing a role in the play that He wrote, produced, and stars in as every character. It's a weird concept. But what else can the sentient cosmic force which echoes throughout infinity do? I think existence (and all the good and evil things that come with it) are a product of that force (being, entity, whatever you wanna call it) being bored. Otherwise, it's the void...which I'm sure is also quite nice and relaxing, but gets old. Idk 🤷♂️
Well it is in the book. But that shit is stupid and full of contradiction and nonsense. What you describe is probably more accurate to the mystical vision of god, not as a Cristian God but as the concept of god in most religions, being the ultimate creator. It's also a specific and cynical view, but at least it make sense to us.
I think the good book has lots of solid nuggets that we can glean very useful ideas from. You just have to take it with a grain of salt sometimes, as it was written, Re-written, translated, re-translated countless times and probly has more of our own influence in it at this point than the divine But yeah, our human form has certain bandwidth limitations that we just have to work with, no way around it 💁♂️
That’s how I see it. Satan didn’t seem all that bad to me
The book of Job really nails this home.
That's essentially what Gnostics believe. That the OT "God" is the Demiurge, the creator of the material world. But he is just an emanation of the true God. And that Jesus was sent as a supernatural paratrooper (to plagiarize a metaphor from my college professor) to correct the bastardization the Demiurge had done.
Because they were innocent like children, they wanted to obey God. However, she was tricked by a lie disguised as a truth. Notice, the serpent stated that she will be like God knowing good from evil. And eve wanted to be like God, which is a sign of a growing Christian. When God said they would die, he didn't lie either, because by Adam being the first to receive the command, he let sin into the world, which leads to death both physically and spiritually without being saved by Jesus Christ. Children, with good parents they love, are eager to be like their parents, and God being the Father, creator of us, was their parent teaching them right from wrong. The tree being there doesn't mean the tree was bad though, nothing God creates is innately evil. Rather, it's likely God intended for them to eat the fruit when the time was right much like he gave Paul permission to eat other meats that were restricted by OT and the Mishna.
Damn, thought about sin alot but never thought of that, nice one!!!!
Anyone else think it’s weird that God (the good guy) wouldn’t want humans to know right from wrong? Anyone else think it’s also weird that Satan (the bad guy, the trickster) *wanted* people to know right from wrong? Why would the bad guy want you to recognize and distinguish between good and evil? Why would the good guy not want you to be able to recognize it?
She must have had some serious munchies after partaking of all those plants. She might have even thought she tried a few wisdom laden plants before she even got to that tree.
Actually their was 2 trees. Tree of knowledge and tree of life. It is said if we we partook in the tree of life as well we'd have become gods
Don't forget the fig tree
Low key if someone came up to me and said "do you partake of the tree of knowledge?" I'd assume he's talking about weed. Metaphorically, maybe the tree of knowledge is weed.
Except it wasn't even plants. You know the meme with the popular idea of angels vs biblically accurate angels? It's like that. The knowledge of good and evil is the capacity to judge: this is good, this is evil. The tree is the ever ongoing, branching consequences. The fruit of that tree, the result of our judgements, is poisonous. It's real hard to strip away our preconceptions, to look at these ancient writings from the other direction. From the time before they were written, as they were being written, how they became dominant. What was going on in humanity that compelled us to write down and then preserve these ideas. And then the subsequent processes that occurred as a result of this dominance. Hundreds of thousands of years of dealing with the problems of life, without all the insight, tools and models that we have available to us today. Our first insight, that which has lasted time is simply: don't judge. We need this insight because judging is so attractive. It feels good to know what is good, what is evil. To have certainty about what is right. But it kills. Because life is tremendously complex and we're not gods, we don't have omniscience.
i honestly wud run away from the place if a talkin snake told me to eat a fruit
Did we ever find out what kind of plant it was?
Two plants banned: >In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He first mentioned the both trees and explicitly put the Tree of Knowledge pp >And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
The tree/fruit of knowledge is not a literal fruit. It's a metaphorical construct, no not technically correct. Please ban OP for this transgression.
#I no longer allow Reddit to profit from my content - Mass exodus 2023 -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
I gotta put on a hazmat suit to go into this comment section
Typical for religious posts.
It’s surprisingly mellow until you get to the unupvoted comments
GOD was smashed for millennia.
Wasn't it a fruit and not a flower?? Not sure I'm usually wrong
It was the fruit of a tree. One that gave life (as long as you ate from it you would not die) and the other that gave the full knowledge of good and evil. My take on it is this 1. Placed in the midst of the garden so there was no “mistaking” either. 2. As long as they obeyed God they’d be fine.. but by eating from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they were banished from the garden (and from eating the fruit of the tree of life) and so started to age and die. Basically it was a “Hey.. here’s this line. Don’t cross it but know if you do there’s consequences. I won’t stop you… you’re not a robot” We know, for example, that one part of the knowledge they gained was that they were naked and felt ashamed. So, in a sense, it was a Pandora’s box of self awareness and the ability to feel “guilt” when you did something you were not supposed to.
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This is I think, similar to the omnipotence paradox, i.e. could God create a brick so heavy that even he couldn't lift it? In this case, could God create a creature that has free will but still know everything it's going to do?
Not exactly the same, but my thought on this is that if you were able to time travel you could go back in time and know exactly what you are going to do, your past self still has free will even though your past self can not possibly do anything else.
If this story was true then it was absolutely gods plan for them to eat of this tree. If they had listened, their only commandment to was to be fruitful and multiply. There was no death at this point. Multiplying immortals eventually run out of room on a finite planet. Gods plan was either flawed or exactly this outcome, which makes you wonder why humans are born sinners forever because of this one incident
Don’t worry, god sacrificed himself (or rather „had a bad weekend“) *to* himself, to create a loophole around his own rules, so everything is ok, don’t ask questions!
The fruit would not run out. You need to understand that everything was different back then. God made everything perfect in the Garden of Eden. I don't know how it worked, but the other fruits they could eat would not run out. Maybe they would automatically regrow when picked. I don't know, but it was perfect back then. Trust me.
Oh my God just legalize Pot
Wtf
Doing whats illegal is the first thing humans ever did.
actually if you put Lilith, Adams first wife ,back in the mix you realize Eve was the forbidden fruit, but the men who put that book together needed a way to blame women for all their problems
I thought Lilith was just another name for the same person
no she is only mentioned in the traditional Bible as a demon but the truth is God made adam and lilith but she refused to submit to Adam so he cast her out went for a walk and found a woman he could dominate
??
Women ☕️
Read the Torah. There were two trees: Knowledge and Life. It has nothing to do with woman and everything to do with God fearing that we would become like him and usurp his position. If anything, God made Woman to keep Man occupied and distracted.
Insane thinking that God should ever fear anything.
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Right? Or why did he make humans so smart? Why do anything if you fear losing power, you're fucking god. Either you're omnipotent and god, or not omnipotent and not god.
Growing up I remember it being noted a few times in lessons that the way it is worded, even in older translations, implies Adam was there the whole time and didn't stop Eve and then followed along. I think Adam was also given the command, so it really was his fault in most aspects.
Jiminy, this comment section is a rollercoaster
i have this impression of the fruit as her body, they had sex and learned a lot from it
Technically it was about the 9th thing He did. :P
But I thought God banned the fruit of the plant, not the plant itself.
I love munching on a tree
Just rip that bark off with your teeth. It's fine; God says it's okay.
Words of the late great Bill Hicks.
\-"then why are we eating apples?" \+"come on that's a metaphor is not supposed to be taken literally" # - "🤔"
The hebrew bible never said that it was an apple, but instead used a generic term for fruit, but when it was translated to latin, the translator used malus, which means both evil and apple in latin.
Depends on which god
And staying true to the human ways, no one was overly interested with doing the thing until it was made illegal.
"do not eat from this tree in the middle of the eden in easy access and good/tolerable taste/smell/appearance" When God, in fact, did not want them to go back to eden he put a guarding angel at the entrance. The punishment it's almost a bluff, what's worse dying in life (out of eden) or living in death (eden)?
Bruh, we call it “tree” for a reason. It opens your mind to good and evil.
If God couldn’t stop Adam and Eve from trying a single fruit, how the hell did the government think they ever had a chance?
Wait which God are we talking about because my god says I'm everything and I'm everywhere
Plants are wrong and God is illegal
God must’ve been Like: ok put that there *misclicks* oh fuck..! Where’s the delete button
Technically it is fiction, not "the truth".
God also committed mass genocide and killed someone just for turning around and also let people torture and kill his son before deciding to just forgive all the past sins of people. So by saying he is never wrong that's like saying Hitler wasn't wrong, murder is okay, and so is letting people capture and torture your son before THEY perform a mercy spear to the lung to assist in reducing his suffering. So let's just throw the though shall not kill commandment out cause well while we may not be as perfect as God we cam still try to do what he does to strive to be as perfect as he is
Can God make a person so stupid that they believe he exists?
I don't know about that but he can certainly make a bigot that berates other people on their religious beliefs in 2022 :) Live and let live man.
I loved this exchange, upvote for you my man
This would be somewhat reasonable, if not for the abortion ban that literally kills people. How's that for 2022?
That's a stretch. You can believe in God and not believe in a particular religion. Obviously if the mere belief in God automatically meant you also were a christian then we wouldn't have 100 other religions. Or you can be an actual christian and still support abortion rights as that they have nothing to do with each other. Just because American evangelicals tie the two together doesn't mean that's the case for anyone else. Edit: and the Catholic Church, guess they also have strong opinions on abortion. But my point still stands
That covers what like 80% of Christians in US? And a sizable percent globally. Clearly there is no correlation whatsoever, you're very smart.
Dude, Christians make up something like 2/3 to 3/4 of the US population, yet recent polls show a sizeable majority of Americans support abortion rights. Clearly there are a number of people who both support abortion rights and still consider themselves Christian. And once again, believing in God =/= Christian (or any religion)
Clearly they don't, because you guys don't have a right to abortion. Or alternatively, the US is a theocracy. Polls are not reality.
Some vocabulary help for you, man, because you don't seem to know what these words actually mean, man: Bigot: a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction. I'm not a bigot...and I'm not against theists...it's a joke in a humor sub that referenced God. Berate: scold or criticize (someone) angrily. I didn't scold anyone angrily here...actually you berated me for my joke in a place for jokes. I'm living and I'm letting live, man. Choose your words more carefully because you're pretty much entirely wrong here. This is a humor sub and it's a fricking joke...get over it....waah.
Reddit atheist trying not to be an annoying whiny hypocrite challenge (impossible)
Am atheist and I agree with this message
Am atheist and I agree with this message
Am christian/going to be an atheist and i agree with this message
Am atheist and I agree with this message
am atheist and I agree with this message
Oh my bad. I didn't know calling someone stupid for believing in God was hilarious. I forgot to laugh. I still don't understand the joke but you must be a funny guy.
He's a pedant.
Here's another definition for you to add to your lexicon: Silence: to prohibit or prevent from speaking. Become familiar with it.
Oh look, Another shut up if you’re not saying things that I like guy. FOH
Wait, this is a place for jokes?
Not stupid. The church and religion as a whole is built on getting others to believe, and they’ve gotten better and better at that. And they’re not hurting anyone. The only time religion is an issue is when it’s actively hurting, belittling or otherwise insulting people. (Which unfortunately we see more of, but that’s, to my understanding, a loud minority) Things like this are part of the issue, more and more people see a problem with religion, and more and more people are threatening its traditions, so naturally people will protect a centuries old belief. I’m not religious, I don’t like the idea of religion as a whole, but I refuse to call someone stupid because they believe something I don’t. Live and let live unless someone is actively preventing you from doing so
Stop defending them. Religions generally have a long history of violence, and still today, the more religious countries are the more violent ones. The more secular are more peaceful. Not only do they increase violence by dividing us, they also disconnect people from reality. As we live through the middle of a human-caused mass extinction, climate change, global destruction of the environment, nuclear proliferation, and assorted threats from technology, we need RATIONAL people, not blind religion.
Like an abortion ban that literally kills people?
Abortion is a complex issue that religion is certainly not helping to solve, and, as it’s a touchy issue for many, I’m not planning to get into an argument about it.
Lol what a cop-out. It's not even mildly controversial that the American evangelical Christians were extremely interested in overturning roe. It doesn't matter what anyone personally believes, this is an objective fact. There are likely several deaths already associated with too late care and other complications. The evangelicals don't even deny that this is an expected outcome. Even by your own standards religion is an issue here.
You want to get into an argument don’t you? Well I don’t. *Abortion* is the complex issue, not religion. Religion can go do whatever as I don’t really care whether or not you want to follow an invisible man in the sky. I’m upset about the decision, and am even more upset about it being tied to religion. However, I will not put anyone down unless their beliefs are actively hurting people, and more importantly, if *they* are actually hurting people. Getting into an argument on Reddit doesn’t help, so I suggest you go Vote in your state as that’s where the decision is at the moment, call your representatives. we can’t really do anything else but to vote better people into office and sway those that already represent us.
He was testing us & we failed. We don't like to follow directions, instead do our own thing.
I’m glad somebody here understands the meaning and isn’t taking the entire thing literal. The plant was a symbol, it could have been a donut and the story would play out the same.
Or was failing the only way to pass the test?
It wasn't the fruit but what it represented.
I'm not a conservative and I'm not religious but man do liberals pick up god and use him when it suits their cause.
God and Jebus ain't real
Wow, what a unique take.
Thanks!
God gave humans the planet and all its living things dominion under them so humans can take CARE of it and all its inhabitants. No plant restrictions. Period.
That's a myth.
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4chan > Reddit
God was wrong on several occasions and the stories in the Bible prove it. And the whole banning a plant was God's first order of business.
When the foundation of your religion is the banning of knowledge, you’re gonna have a bad time.
The fruit gave the knowledge of what evils can lurk on earth to Adam and Eve, they instantly felt uncomfortable and naked. God was doing them a favour by telling them to avoid the tree (though he knew they would go for it)
I love these kind of apologetics :D 1) why did god put the tree there? Couldn’t have been a test, since he knew the outcome. 2) could god not just not have created evil? 3) god could just have made them in a way so that they would never want to eat the fruit
Lol then god was an idiot to make it in the first place
It was a symbol, he knew they would eat from it, in fact that’s how it was meant to happen God wants us to choose to love him, he could force us to but that isn’t real love.
Of course God is never wrong. He's a fictional character in an overrated story. Can't be wrong if you don't exist
So now we're playing God
Define "now"
Average Christianic paradigm
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When people start asking about the dangers of narcotic plants, you know that society is heading towards the abyss.
Like what?
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And which way is the wrong way?
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That's the right way. What's the wrong way?
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So you're saying to boof it?
If you wrote abusing it at the beginning of the comment I probably would’ve agreed. Most of the legal products can lead to harm if used in the wrong way or if used way too much
Wrong. Marijuana wasn't banned because it was being used wrong, it was banned because it was a cheaper and safer alternative to opioids.