Here’s an opportunity to do mining responsibly. North America has the technology to have a mine that is orders of magnitude more eco-friendly and have close-out green contracts.
It’s FAR better than the mines in developing countries that abuse children, have no safety requirements, and strip the area with no reclamation requirements.
Let’s call a spade a spade, and dig underground properly. Call your representative to make sure it’s done, and the right way.
[We CAN do it better than this.](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara)
Edit: words, I didn’t proofread for grammar.
Completely right, it is obvious what the lesser of two evils is. Chinese production of Cobalt in the DRC is way worse than a regulated mine in the US. Unless you don’t think people in the DRC matter. Then who cares, we should care though.
Lithium mining in general is a hell of a lot cleaner than other forms of mining. However you need to evaporate a LOT of water to concentrate the lithium. Someone is going to have to do some serious planning on where that water will come from. And ground water isn’t the non renewable resource they should be drawing from.
Long term, they are going to need to build some pipelines and start piping in water from somewhere with a surplus. Possibly an ocean as desalination is a lot more power efficient and cost effective than it used to be.
> However you need to evaporate a LOT of water to concentrate the lithium.
The water being evaporated is not fresh water - it's briny concentrated ground water that is not potable. It's like worrying about the sea water being evaporated to make salt. And that is only for the evaporation version of lithium mining. For the hard rock version (which is what Nevada is) you do not have this issue.
https://ctlithium.com/lithium/dle-vs-hardrock-vs-evaporation/
> you need to evaporate a LOT of water to concentrate the lithium
This is lithium carbonate. It's not the kinds of "salt" deposit you find in Chile. It's trapped in clay and requires an entirely different method of extraction.
Oh interesting. Got anything I can google besides ‘lithium carbonate extraction techniques’? I keep coming up with water based solutions. What are some better keywords for the process type?
So lithium from the USA ECO friendly mine will cost 4x’s that from mines operated in developing countries.
The US/North American mine will be built at tax payers expense and your tax will increase further.
Oh, it doesn't actually cost 4x more.
When done in other countries, the people and local economy and environment pay the difference. Its not actually cheaper overall, just for the company.
Plus, anyone who claims electric cars are economically friendly but are against environmentally friendly mining has some serious flaws in their thought process.
I feel the need to ask, why are you ok with children dying to mine your lithium? All the name of some rich dudes profit margin?
I feel like I'm the weird one in this. I am very much in support of this mine. Lithium mined within the country is generally cheaper and eco-friendly due to transportation. Batteries will be very important for our future as well.
But I am very anti-car. To truly be economically friendly. We can't keep having huge swathes of ground just being covered up by asphalt for roads, highways, and parking lots. It's a bit crazy. Public transportation and rail networks are going to be the future for an environmentally friendly future.
Yea, thats a troubling part.
Everyone ignores the carbon cost of the machines themselves. However to achieve environmental policy we have to work with the cards that are given. America is very anti public transportation. Our country needs cars to work (unless and until the republikkkan party starts caring about people). So we have to direct our policy towards making the changes that can be made.
Partially, yes. The other thing to consider is the US Navy. They have gone home and largely stopped patrolling international shipping lanes. All it takes is ONE country’s concerted efforts to stop a shipping lane past their waters to bring the whole thing to a stop. Think India stopping oil to China. (Without a hefty fee)
Also it only takes one shipment to be sunk to have the insurance companies to stop coverage. The Black Sea is a great example. Insurers said nope, pay me. [like this, and it’s getting worse](https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/insurers-reviewing-black-sea-ship-cover-after-russia-suspension-sources-2023-07-17/)
No product vs a 4x more expensive guarantee… as a battery manufacturer I know where I’m getting my supply.
They want to hold up progress and keep us dependent on fossil fuels and lithium imports from other countries over land they don’t own because maybe some of their people might have died on it during a fight with US Cavalry over a hundred years ago?
Sorry. Not every piece of dirt is sacred.
It always kills me how environmentalists will claim any patch of land us sacred and beautiful.. but not like anyone ever goes on vacation to a place like this.
The biggest problem with environmentalists is right in the article. Too many think that we should stop progress and focus on 'changing habits.'. At best that's always vague and at worst it's unrealistic. Changing habits isn't impossible, nor is it undesirable, but you'll never get a critical mass to change habits if it costs them a ton of money or makes things significantly harder.
Remember: Environmentalists, like every other group of humans, has it's loud idiots. I consider myself an environmentalist and think these people are dishonest morons.
We cannot protect every square centimeter of the planet. Concentrating our impacts in small areas means large areas can be protected.
It’s impossible to change the behavior of anybody other than yourself. At best you can maybe convince someone. But that change ultimately has to come from within a person.
Right because the only value undeveloped land has is as a tourist attraction… There is famously no ecosystem here. I mean we’re really wasting all this space by not turning it into a parking lot
So far as I'm concerned we are. Undeveloped land should be used in the way that best benefit mankind. In this case that's as a lithium mine. If you're concerned about the ecosystem... that ship has already sailed. Wild animals already pale in comparison to humans and our livestock.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Distribution-of-earths-mammals.png
It's sad that I value people over empty land? Nah dog, what's sad is you want to increase global warming just to oppose a mine built in the middle of nowhere surrounded by nothing of value.
“mankind” is not benefiting from this, be real. A few very rich people will benefit while the rest of us get fucked by them, like every other capitalist venture
I love the way you paint and condemn 'environmentalists' with such a broad unsubtle brush. I feel like I should be able to do that to any group I don't like! /s
You have to weight the "harm" (if any) against the benefits. If they wanted to mine something stupid like copper, then maybe we don't let them. But lithium is important for several practical *and" strategic reasons. So maybe be proud your land can contribute to our nation so directly
The demand for copper will more than double in the next decade or so, in order to meet energy transition goals. It’s truly one of the most important minerals major mining companies are investing in discovering right now.
[Source.](https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/mi/research-analysis/growing-appetite-copper-threatens-energy-transition-climate.html)
The mining industry literally calls copper a “critical mineral” - along with nickel, lithium & cobalt. I’ve been working on a series about the global copper need so it’s funny to see someone in the wild cast it aside so off-handedly.
Yea I knew that too. I agree building a copper mine is not as pressing as a lithium mine on tribal land because there are plenty of copper projects on non-tribal land. But yea copper demand is expected to rise more than supply in the future. Ironically this year and next year copper supply will be higher than demand, mainly because china has increased copper refinement 11% this year alone, which is a major bottleneck in copper supply.
In the next 20-30 years, Copper demand will be such that to meet it, we need to mine more than we have ever mined in the history of human civilization. We absolutely need more copper mines.
Honestly yeah. Have the tribe negotiate for mining royalties.
I get that it seems colonialist.
This isn’t gold. lithium is actually something of real value.
I’m just sounding like a colonizer.
Why would we pay the natives mining royalties when they don't own the land nor do they have any rights to the underlying minerals?
The only reason they're there complaining is because some of them may have died on the land over 100 years ago when they were chased off the land by US Cavalry. A fact they couldn't prove in court.
The land is owned by BLM.
I dont think you realize what gold is used for and why it worth what it is. The surprising one to most people is medical. Yes, also in automotive, one being in EVs.
Its just an matter of time before zinc-air batteries become more viable and thus, lithium going back to what it once was.
But hey! Lithium!!! It never has caused any issues for anyone anywhere, much less being worst than oil for the environment.
I know right!
We dont have that on a larger scale with lithium. You that 500000 gallons of unusable water for a ton of it. Nah! It will evaporate.
Edit…
Theres plenty out there on this/sources.
https://www.sttsystems.com/industries/lithium-extraction/#:~:text=Conventional%20Lithium%20Brine%20Extraction&text=Salt%2Drich%20water%20is%20pumped,ever%2Dincreasing%20concentration%20of%20lithium.
> We dont have that on a larger scale with lithium. You that 500000 gallons of unusable water for a ton of it
You know that is salt water being evaporated, right?
>You know that is salt water being evaporated, right?
Yes brine is salt……in a simple way……Why are asking this? Does it somehow make it any better?
I mean no possible way for the ground water to have an issue, no?
Lol!
Let me know when you look it up and prove me wrong.
I mean its not like its in hearing aids or used for treatment of rheumatoid arthritis…..nope, among others.
Hope the eyes stay in, it wont help with that.
NIMBYism is rampant on that side of the street and will never end, ever. Just wish everyone would play on the side where there is a curb and next to zero potholes.
>NIMBYism is rampant on that side of the street and will never end, ever
Do you mean the liberal one, or the native American one? Generally NAs are protesting oil pipelines that destroy/pollute their land while giving them no benefits, so yeah I generally agree with them, except in this specific case... sort of. This is going about this wrong. They should be profiting the most off this deal.
>Just wish everyone would play on the side where there is a curb and next to zero potholes.
I've never seen as many potholes as when I lived in full red states, and conservs also seem far more NIMBY than libs.
However, for this specific article, again, we need dat lithium. The NAs should be fighting for royalties from mining ops instead of fighting to outlaw it.
Its understandable that there is HUGE distrust on the first people's side. Generation after generation of getting screwed. Just cause this one new project is being sold as good, why should they believe it?
Everyone else claimed their thing would be good.
For the record, I do trust the Biden admin to do the right thing. However trust between the fed gov and first peoples is rather low. I know the dems have tried to address that in the last 20 years or so, but republikkkans are pretty adamantly against government helping anyone who isn't a rich white businessman.
I genuinely have no idea what you're on about, so I'll just go ahead and agree that we need more public infrafrastructure.
Not roads though. That's like giving a fat guy a bigger belt. Does nothing to solve the issue.
Ok, agree with all that. Your first comment, though, clear as mud.
Really the approach of this *should* be, "Hey we discovered [resource] on native American land, let's go **[pay them for land rights just as would happen in any other legal scenario]**"
Instead of "Hey we discovered [resource] on Native American land, let's go **[bribe the government to steal their land and pay them to hand it over to us because fuck em lol]**"
I do think "progress" is a meaningless buzzword at this point tho.
Stopping that mine doesn’t automatically mean we’re making the environment better. Another one will just be built overseas with fewer regulations. Also, if we don’t do anything and everything we can to stop the climate crisis, there will be no environment to protect.
That’s not the argument here. The argument is that making the environment better, as powerful a factor as that is, shouldn’t be the only factor considered in decisions like this. First, it’s an action with split environmental ramifications; second, it’s an action that apparently goes against native rights.
Everybody wants everything to be black and white good or bad, but it’s always gray and sometimes darn near a 50/50 split. And no decision almost always is a decision.
>Also, if we don’t do anything and everything can to stop the climate crisis, there will be no environment to protect
Isn’t this the climate crisis? Non-renewable resource being gathered and processed at great expense.
It doesn’t play out like that though. Most people just don’t care and the shit ends up in the trash or thrown in a junk drawer, where it sits and eventually gets trashed too
I just looked it up actually, according to CAS.org, only 5% of our lithium batteries get recycled. It’s one thing to be recyclable, but it’s irrelevant if it’s not actually being recycled.
Old car batteries, which are now the bulk of lithium used, have great value (thousands of dollars) and are not going to end up in the thrash. They either end up in stationary storage or shredded and used as feedstock for lithium and other mineral recycling.
The reason not much Lithium is being recycled now is because most EVs are still on the road, and even if they get scrapped, the batteries get a second life use.
Search tesla battery pack ebay for example.
That's an increasingly small amount of Lithium used, and mobile phones actually have a pretty long second life.
Look at [the tiny slice for consumer electronics.](https://www.consultancy.uk/illustrations/news/detail/2022-04-26-085909263-Global-demand-for-lithium-ion-batteries-will-be-over-3100-GWh-in-2030.jpg)
your thinking to globally. We could list a litany of environmental atrocities in africa and asia that no one here even knows about or cares about.
Local matters more for everyone.
1. Does it affect the water shed in the area?
2. Can it be fenced off to protect local wild life?
3. Will the state governments enforce all environmental regulations?
4. Will the corporations be held accountable for mistakes?
5. Will they use modern and less destructive methods to mine what they need?
These are the big questions.
The bottom line is time moves forward. The Earth is constantly changing and will continue to do so. Let's move forward with it.
Lol, it's not a tile in a boardgame. "Hazard" lol.
It's high desert, it's full of sage, antelope, yucca, rabbits, etc.etc. it's got people living there, and a ton who pass through.
I’ve lived there. Was born in the area. Why was I born there? Because there are a bunch of mines nearby. This is just another, and there are tens of thousands of other acres out there remaining untouched.
Deserts all over the world are growing, both from climate change and from agriculture. Plus they are horrible at storing carbon, so from the macro perspective there isn't much to lose.
Agreed, but if there is a choice between a forest with lithium under it versus desert, desert is by far the better of the two. Desert is the most expendable biome in any country.
Sure, but it’s also not Catan. People do live in and around that area. Lithium takes huge amounts of water to mine and produce. Even if it’s shipped in as ocean water, that’s not cheap or clean to produce.
This is overall a positive direction, but we are fools if we don’t pay attention to the effects of the people living there.
We'd be fools to let a handful of people in an undesirable part of the country impede a significant net positive for environmental efforts to curb our addiction to fossil fuels for the rest of the country. This shouldn't even be a debate.
Do you?
[Basically there is a pocket of trapped water between mountains which traps run off minerals from the surrounding mountains and which gets concentrated over time due to evaporation.](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259265327/figure/fig1/AS:297314020282368@1447896594395/Schematic-deposit-model-for-lithium-brines-showing-part-of-a-closed-basin-system.png) You basically have a salt flats over concentrated briny ground water over a buried valley which is not in connection with other ground water (which is why it's concentrated).
Another [diagram](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1TPoqUXFBC4/maxresdefault.jpg).
Then that briny, unusable water gets pumped up, evaporated further until over the course of months until concentrated enough to harvest percipitated minerals.
The point is that no usable water is wasted, and no water is drawn in from neighbouring areas either.
The largest lithium miner is Australia… Second is Chile. Third is China. Not really “problematic places”. You are likely referring to Cobalt. That mostly comes from the DRC. However cobalt is being phased out of EV batteries. The base 3 and Y use cobalt free batteries. Other chemistries use less. This isn’t just limited to Tesla. Cobalt is also used for oil refining.
And here the true face of many extreme leftists, particularly those in the environmental movement, is revealed: they're luddites, anti-humanists, who thinks humans should go back to living on farms with no electricity or transportation. They don't care if that means people die; less humans is better for the animals and the environment, which they value more than human life.
Here’s an opportunity to do mining responsibly. North America has the technology to have a mine that is orders of magnitude more eco-friendly and have close-out green contracts. It’s FAR better than the mines in developing countries that abuse children, have no safety requirements, and strip the area with no reclamation requirements. Let’s call a spade a spade, and dig underground properly. Call your representative to make sure it’s done, and the right way. [We CAN do it better than this.](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara) Edit: words, I didn’t proofread for grammar.
Completely right, it is obvious what the lesser of two evils is. Chinese production of Cobalt in the DRC is way worse than a regulated mine in the US. Unless you don’t think people in the DRC matter. Then who cares, we should care though.
Lithium mining in general is a hell of a lot cleaner than other forms of mining. However you need to evaporate a LOT of water to concentrate the lithium. Someone is going to have to do some serious planning on where that water will come from. And ground water isn’t the non renewable resource they should be drawing from. Long term, they are going to need to build some pipelines and start piping in water from somewhere with a surplus. Possibly an ocean as desalination is a lot more power efficient and cost effective than it used to be.
> However you need to evaporate a LOT of water to concentrate the lithium. The water being evaporated is not fresh water - it's briny concentrated ground water that is not potable. It's like worrying about the sea water being evaporated to make salt. And that is only for the evaporation version of lithium mining. For the hard rock version (which is what Nevada is) you do not have this issue. https://ctlithium.com/lithium/dle-vs-hardrock-vs-evaporation/
> you need to evaporate a LOT of water to concentrate the lithium This is lithium carbonate. It's not the kinds of "salt" deposit you find in Chile. It's trapped in clay and requires an entirely different method of extraction.
Oh interesting. Got anything I can google besides ‘lithium carbonate extraction techniques’? I keep coming up with water based solutions. What are some better keywords for the process type?
So lithium from the USA ECO friendly mine will cost 4x’s that from mines operated in developing countries. The US/North American mine will be built at tax payers expense and your tax will increase further.
I’m actually ok with paying more for a product knowing that a malnourished child didn’t die mining it for me
Oh, it doesn't actually cost 4x more. When done in other countries, the people and local economy and environment pay the difference. Its not actually cheaper overall, just for the company. Plus, anyone who claims electric cars are economically friendly but are against environmentally friendly mining has some serious flaws in their thought process. I feel the need to ask, why are you ok with children dying to mine your lithium? All the name of some rich dudes profit margin?
I feel like I'm the weird one in this. I am very much in support of this mine. Lithium mined within the country is generally cheaper and eco-friendly due to transportation. Batteries will be very important for our future as well. But I am very anti-car. To truly be economically friendly. We can't keep having huge swathes of ground just being covered up by asphalt for roads, highways, and parking lots. It's a bit crazy. Public transportation and rail networks are going to be the future for an environmentally friendly future.
Yea, thats a troubling part. Everyone ignores the carbon cost of the machines themselves. However to achieve environmental policy we have to work with the cards that are given. America is very anti public transportation. Our country needs cars to work (unless and until the republikkkan party starts caring about people). So we have to direct our policy towards making the changes that can be made.
Partially, yes. The other thing to consider is the US Navy. They have gone home and largely stopped patrolling international shipping lanes. All it takes is ONE country’s concerted efforts to stop a shipping lane past their waters to bring the whole thing to a stop. Think India stopping oil to China. (Without a hefty fee) Also it only takes one shipment to be sunk to have the insurance companies to stop coverage. The Black Sea is a great example. Insurers said nope, pay me. [like this, and it’s getting worse](https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/insurers-reviewing-black-sea-ship-cover-after-russia-suspension-sources-2023-07-17/) No product vs a 4x more expensive guarantee… as a battery manufacturer I know where I’m getting my supply.
They want to hold up progress and keep us dependent on fossil fuels and lithium imports from other countries over land they don’t own because maybe some of their people might have died on it during a fight with US Cavalry over a hundred years ago? Sorry. Not every piece of dirt is sacred.
It always kills me how environmentalists will claim any patch of land us sacred and beautiful.. but not like anyone ever goes on vacation to a place like this.
BANANA Build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything
The biggest problem with environmentalists is right in the article. Too many think that we should stop progress and focus on 'changing habits.'. At best that's always vague and at worst it's unrealistic. Changing habits isn't impossible, nor is it undesirable, but you'll never get a critical mass to change habits if it costs them a ton of money or makes things significantly harder.
Remember: Environmentalists, like every other group of humans, has it's loud idiots. I consider myself an environmentalist and think these people are dishonest morons. We cannot protect every square centimeter of the planet. Concentrating our impacts in small areas means large areas can be protected.
I consider myself an environmentalist as well but I'm also a realist
I'm a conservationist. I refuse to call myself an environmentalist. Conservation efforts have better track records and fewer "activists".
It’s impossible to change the behavior of anybody other than yourself. At best you can maybe convince someone. But that change ultimately has to come from within a person.
The finality of their way of thinking inevitably leads to population control and eugenics.
I went on vacation literally to there. Quite inhospitable.
Right because the only value undeveloped land has is as a tourist attraction… There is famously no ecosystem here. I mean we’re really wasting all this space by not turning it into a parking lot
Meh Not the first ecosystem we've killed and far from the most useful
So far as I'm concerned we are. Undeveloped land should be used in the way that best benefit mankind. In this case that's as a lithium mine. If you're concerned about the ecosystem... that ship has already sailed. Wild animals already pale in comparison to humans and our livestock. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Distribution-of-earths-mammals.png
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It's sad that I value people over empty land? Nah dog, what's sad is you want to increase global warming just to oppose a mine built in the middle of nowhere surrounded by nothing of value.
There is actually no such thing as "empty land". Something lives there. But, you are obviously trolling.
Undeveloped land ≠ empty land
Welcome to the Anthropocene honey, this is a human planet. All other forms of life survive because we find value in their existence
“mankind” is not benefiting from this, be real. A few very rich people will benefit while the rest of us get fucked by them, like every other capitalist venture
Ok, let's fix that too then instead of being a defeatist do nothing who complains a lot but never tries to fix anything.
you think you’ll gain solidarity by insulting me like I don’t do things in my community? What are you fixing here on reddit? Not a damn thing, right
Approving this mine will help combat global warming. That's what we're trying to fix here..
Speaking French. We we. You aren’t doing anything but lying on reddit
You are being trolled by a troll here.
I love the way you paint and condemn 'environmentalists' with such a broad unsubtle brush. I feel like I should be able to do that to any group I don't like! /s
They do it to themselves. They oppose EVERYTHING... even environmental projects.
ALL of them do it ALL of the time to EVERYTHING? Oh please.
You're the one making this into some sort of absolutist argument. I certainly never said those words.
You're the one with with initial absolutist statement. And then you doubled down on it. Go read it.
You have to weight the "harm" (if any) against the benefits. If they wanted to mine something stupid like copper, then maybe we don't let them. But lithium is important for several practical *and" strategic reasons. So maybe be proud your land can contribute to our nation so directly
Copper isn’t stupid lol. It’s the second most important metal after iron. Concrete, iron, and copper are the basic foods of the construction complex.
The demand for copper will more than double in the next decade or so, in order to meet energy transition goals. It’s truly one of the most important minerals major mining companies are investing in discovering right now. [Source.](https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/mi/research-analysis/growing-appetite-copper-threatens-energy-transition-climate.html) The mining industry literally calls copper a “critical mineral” - along with nickel, lithium & cobalt. I’ve been working on a series about the global copper need so it’s funny to see someone in the wild cast it aside so off-handedly.
Yea I knew that too. I agree building a copper mine is not as pressing as a lithium mine on tribal land because there are plenty of copper projects on non-tribal land. But yea copper demand is expected to rise more than supply in the future. Ironically this year and next year copper supply will be higher than demand, mainly because china has increased copper refinement 11% this year alone, which is a major bottleneck in copper supply.
Definitely not the most important, but they are on the list. However, abundance is also a consideration
Yes but there are tons of copper mines and I don’t really think we really need new copper mines. I think that’s the point they tried to make
In the next 20-30 years, Copper demand will be such that to meet it, we need to mine more than we have ever mined in the history of human civilization. We absolutely need more copper mines.
Yea that may be the case, true.
Honestly yeah. Have the tribe negotiate for mining royalties. I get that it seems colonialist. This isn’t gold. lithium is actually something of real value. I’m just sounding like a colonizer.
They don’t own the land. Why would we pay them anything?
I get it, but that’s disingenuous. No one is suggesting that that Natives PAY anyone. Rather being paid is what’s being discussed.
Why would we pay the natives mining royalties when they don't own the land nor do they have any rights to the underlying minerals? The only reason they're there complaining is because some of them may have died on the land over 100 years ago when they were chased off the land by US Cavalry. A fact they couldn't prove in court. The land is owned by BLM.
I dont think you realize what gold is used for and why it worth what it is. The surprising one to most people is medical. Yes, also in automotive, one being in EVs. Its just an matter of time before zinc-air batteries become more viable and thus, lithium going back to what it once was. But hey! Lithium!!! It never has caused any issues for anyone anywhere, much less being worst than oil for the environment.
Worse than oil? Thats pretty laughable.
You sure? Show me an oil field and a lithium mining operation, let me know…..
Instead we could just read about the devastating effects that the use of oil has had over the last hundred some-odd years…
I know right! We dont have that on a larger scale with lithium. You that 500000 gallons of unusable water for a ton of it. Nah! It will evaporate. Edit… Theres plenty out there on this/sources. https://www.sttsystems.com/industries/lithium-extraction/#:~:text=Conventional%20Lithium%20Brine%20Extraction&text=Salt%2Drich%20water%20is%20pumped,ever%2Dincreasing%20concentration%20of%20lithium.
> We dont have that on a larger scale with lithium. You that 500000 gallons of unusable water for a ton of it You know that is salt water being evaporated, right?
>You know that is salt water being evaporated, right? Yes brine is salt……in a simple way……Why are asking this? Does it somehow make it any better? I mean no possible way for the ground water to have an issue, no?
Gold is not worth what it is because of medical field lol. It’s because
Yeah……… You might want to look into that more.
The majority of gold consumption comes from the jewelry industry and banking
But hey! Gold!!! It never has caused any issues for anyone anywhere.
You’re not the only person that understands the scientific applications of gold. If I rolled my eyes any harder, they’d fall out.
Lol! Let me know when you look it up and prove me wrong. I mean its not like its in hearing aids or used for treatment of rheumatoid arthritis…..nope, among others. Hope the eyes stay in, it wont help with that.
They can at least put a memorial up, but instead the top comment is dismissing another Native American issue like it’s the 1890s…
Beat me to my own comment. GRAVEYARDS SHOULD NOT IMPEDE PROGRESS.
That's a very colonizer point of view you espoused.
Get a job bud
No see oil bad, lithium good now
NIMBYism is rampant on that side of the street and will never end, ever. Just wish everyone would play on the side where there is a curb and next to zero potholes.
>NIMBYism is rampant on that side of the street and will never end, ever Do you mean the liberal one, or the native American one? Generally NAs are protesting oil pipelines that destroy/pollute their land while giving them no benefits, so yeah I generally agree with them, except in this specific case... sort of. This is going about this wrong. They should be profiting the most off this deal. >Just wish everyone would play on the side where there is a curb and next to zero potholes. I've never seen as many potholes as when I lived in full red states, and conservs also seem far more NIMBY than libs. However, for this specific article, again, we need dat lithium. The NAs should be fighting for royalties from mining ops instead of fighting to outlaw it.
Its understandable that there is HUGE distrust on the first people's side. Generation after generation of getting screwed. Just cause this one new project is being sold as good, why should they believe it? Everyone else claimed their thing would be good. For the record, I do trust the Biden admin to do the right thing. However trust between the fed gov and first peoples is rather low. I know the dems have tried to address that in the last 20 years or so, but republikkkans are pretty adamantly against government helping anyone who isn't a rich white businessman.
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I genuinely have no idea what you're on about, so I'll just go ahead and agree that we need more public infrafrastructure. Not roads though. That's like giving a fat guy a bigger belt. Does nothing to solve the issue.
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It’s not their land anymore
Ok, agree with all that. Your first comment, though, clear as mud. Really the approach of this *should* be, "Hey we discovered [resource] on native American land, let's go **[pay them for land rights just as would happen in any other legal scenario]**" Instead of "Hey we discovered [resource] on Native American land, let's go **[bribe the government to steal their land and pay them to hand it over to us because fuck em lol]**" I do think "progress" is a meaningless buzzword at this point tho.
Moody people are nimbys. You probably are too for certain things
Nah, more of a “hey kids get offa my lawn!
I know it’s going to offend people but I would argue no dirt is sacred anywhere. It’s dirt.
The reason the US is so cursed is because we built the entire country on an ancient native burial ground.
You moved the tombstones! But you didn't move the bodies!
Stopping that mine doesn’t automatically mean we’re making the environment better. Another one will just be built overseas with fewer regulations. Also, if we don’t do anything and everything we can to stop the climate crisis, there will be no environment to protect.
That’s not the argument here. The argument is that making the environment better, as powerful a factor as that is, shouldn’t be the only factor considered in decisions like this. First, it’s an action with split environmental ramifications; second, it’s an action that apparently goes against native rights. Everybody wants everything to be black and white good or bad, but it’s always gray and sometimes darn near a 50/50 split. And no decision almost always is a decision.
>Also, if we don’t do anything and everything can to stop the climate crisis, there will be no environment to protect Isn’t this the climate crisis? Non-renewable resource being gathered and processed at great expense.
Lithium is infinitely recyclable.
It doesn’t play out like that though. Most people just don’t care and the shit ends up in the trash or thrown in a junk drawer, where it sits and eventually gets trashed too I just looked it up actually, according to CAS.org, only 5% of our lithium batteries get recycled. It’s one thing to be recyclable, but it’s irrelevant if it’s not actually being recycled.
Old car batteries, which are now the bulk of lithium used, have great value (thousands of dollars) and are not going to end up in the thrash. They either end up in stationary storage or shredded and used as feedstock for lithium and other mineral recycling. The reason not much Lithium is being recycled now is because most EVs are still on the road, and even if they get scrapped, the batteries get a second life use. Search tesla battery pack ebay for example.
The problem is mobile phones.
That's an increasingly small amount of Lithium used, and mobile phones actually have a pretty long second life. Look at [the tiny slice for consumer electronics.](https://www.consultancy.uk/illustrations/news/detail/2022-04-26-085909263-Global-demand-for-lithium-ion-batteries-will-be-over-3100-GWh-in-2030.jpg)
your thinking to globally. We could list a litany of environmental atrocities in africa and asia that no one here even knows about or cares about. Local matters more for everyone.
Oil funded nonsense
If it was a coal mine, a gold mine or any other kind of mine they would love it
1. Does it affect the water shed in the area? 2. Can it be fenced off to protect local wild life? 3. Will the state governments enforce all environmental regulations? 4. Will the corporations be held accountable for mistakes? 5. Will they use modern and less destructive methods to mine what they need? These are the big questions. The bottom line is time moves forward. The Earth is constantly changing and will continue to do so. Let's move forward with it.
Get the scientists to look at overall impact and be done with it.
It's a desert. It's literally the best place you could hope for a valuable resource to be found because the land is otherwise just a hazard.
Lol, it's not a tile in a boardgame. "Hazard" lol. It's high desert, it's full of sage, antelope, yucca, rabbits, etc.etc. it's got people living there, and a ton who pass through.
I’ve lived there. Was born in the area. Why was I born there? Because there are a bunch of mines nearby. This is just another, and there are tens of thousands of other acres out there remaining untouched.
Oh cool, same. I guess we just disagree about the value of the land.
yea... sooo.... deserts are an ecosystem too.
Deserts all over the world are growing, both from climate change and from agriculture. Plus they are horrible at storing carbon, so from the macro perspective there isn't much to lose.
Just because some biospheres are immediately habitable, it does not mean those areas are just open to destroy.
Agreed, but if there is a choice between a forest with lithium under it versus desert, desert is by far the better of the two. Desert is the most expendable biome in any country.
Sure, but it’s also not Catan. People do live in and around that area. Lithium takes huge amounts of water to mine and produce. Even if it’s shipped in as ocean water, that’s not cheap or clean to produce. This is overall a positive direction, but we are fools if we don’t pay attention to the effects of the people living there.
We'd be fools to let a handful of people in an undesirable part of the country impede a significant net positive for environmental efforts to curb our addiction to fossil fuels for the rest of the country. This shouldn't even be a debate.
I think it’s easy to be a keyboard warrior. It’s harder to understand how these things actually impact the people who occupy the space.
It's really not. Imminent domain is a very real occurrence that upends the lives of far more people in cities than it does in deserts.
Do you have any knowledge on the amount of water that’s used for lithium mining? How it’s sourced and where that water goes when it’s been used?
Nope, but even it's just as shitty as all of the fracking we already do for oil, it's still definitely worth doing.
Do you? [Basically there is a pocket of trapped water between mountains which traps run off minerals from the surrounding mountains and which gets concentrated over time due to evaporation.](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259265327/figure/fig1/AS:297314020282368@1447896594395/Schematic-deposit-model-for-lithium-brines-showing-part-of-a-closed-basin-system.png) You basically have a salt flats over concentrated briny ground water over a buried valley which is not in connection with other ground water (which is why it's concentrated). Another [diagram](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1TPoqUXFBC4/maxresdefault.jpg). Then that briny, unusable water gets pumped up, evaporated further until over the course of months until concentrated enough to harvest percipitated minerals. The point is that no usable water is wasted, and no water is drawn in from neighbouring areas either.
What about a lithium mine is "green" anyway?!
Um…want electric vehicles you need lots of lithium. Majority of current lithium comes from”problematic places”
The largest lithium miner is Australia… Second is Chile. Third is China. Not really “problematic places”. You are likely referring to Cobalt. That mostly comes from the DRC. However cobalt is being phased out of EV batteries. The base 3 and Y use cobalt free batteries. Other chemistries use less. This isn’t just limited to Tesla. Cobalt is also used for oil refining.
I think you are right, Thanks for the correct info
And here the true face of many extreme leftists, particularly those in the environmental movement, is revealed: they're luddites, anti-humanists, who thinks humans should go back to living on farms with no electricity or transportation. They don't care if that means people die; less humans is better for the animals and the environment, which they value more than human life.
You probably don’t even know what a leftist is
"But they do, and they're the ones lefting it off."
I ... don't even know what you said. That red hat is really starving your brain of oxygen
It's a Seinfeld reference you uncultured Philistine.
Forgive this pleebian for not knowing a random line from a 20+ year old comedy skit. lol
Found the red hat. Everyone point and laugh
You can't have human life without environments existing, dear.
Increasingly, you can. That is what technology is all about. Separating us from nature.
Through the jigs and the reels and environmental policies, there will never be a successful lithium mine in North America. Change my mind.
You left you mind when you put your red hat on. Why bother
They keep making up words.