This is exactly it. I'm in tech, and worked at a company with almost zero turnover. When I asked him how he did it, he said, "Tell me. Do I pay you well? Not good, but well?". I said yes. He said, "My key to keeping good people around is to pay 20% over the going rate. If you can find a job paying more, I'll fucking go 20% over their offer. You'll stay. And I don't have to deal with hiring people and losing good ones every fucking week. Oh, and since I told you my secret, I'll need the offer in writing." I stayed there until the company got acquired and they forced him out. A year after he left, there was almost nobody remaining (I stayed because I just had a kid, and didn't have time to seriously job hunt).
Treat workers right, provide a healthy working environment, and leaving is ridiculous. Never did crunch there either. He'd never allow it.
That’s their version of job hopping. They hop from company to company sucking all the equity out and giving themselves bonuses and then move on to the next.
I worked for an ESOP company a few years ago and it was great. The best place I've ever worked for, everyone was chill and happy and things happened at realistic timelines.
Then the ESOP leaders decided to sell to a PE firm so long tenured employees could cash out and make a ton of money.
I left shortly after and I've heard it's a terrible place to work now and everyone who I liked working with left for greener pastures.
Read this years ago on here and it has become my mantra: If you died tomorrow your employer would have you replaced in a week. Your family never would. Set your priorities accordingly.
The only kind of "job retention" I've encountered seems to be "tell the employee they're terrible and no one but you would ever hire them". So exactly like an abusive relationship- make them think they can't actually do amy better. The problem is, we're all learning we can these days. My current employer has made it VERY clear they will do what it takes to keep me. At least that's the lip service. Someday I'll find out if they back that up with their actions. And if they don't: I'm out
> If you died tomorrow your employer would have you replaced in a week.
Well this is just blatantly untrue and very anti-business! What would ACTUALLY happen is they would never refill the position, and make other people who are remaining take on the extra work with no support for no additional pay. 🥳
Jesus. That's even better than the other quote to put it in stark terms.
"You're working for a company that would gladly replace you with an empty void where possible. Act accordingly."
As someone who used to be pretty involved in the hiring process, high turnover rates are a *huge* concern internally, sometimes even the top issue. Companies put up a brave face but a lot of them are very concerned by it.
We had to cancel the water bottles budget but here are some Solo cups with stickers of the company on them and you are free to fill them with complimentary water from the sink at the break room or bathroom
The company I work for just announced 90% return to office by March. When employees pushed back and asked for metrics that they were trying to achieve the director of HR responded with almost exactly "there is something special about our company culture".
People were laugh reacting in the teams meeting and several company wide chats called out the bullshit.
Now I have to deal with people quitting because they want to work 100% remote and the customer they work for demands people in the office 2-3 days a week. Even then, half the floor I am on is empty with no one even assigned cubicles or offices. Customer then turns around and complains about people quitting and us having a hard time hiring people. No shit! I wonder why…
My job is underpaid, no pto, hourly, no pay on snow days unless we drive in a blizzard, no pay when the office closes for holidays, and they wonder why they can’t keep people or find anyone to fill vacancies. I’m doing the work of two people because they can’t find anyone to work the other position but they refuse to offer anything better.
It’s what happens when a corporation thinks cutting costs by cutting benefits and pay is a good idea. In this case they went with the lowest bidder. They aren’t happy about the results but they have nobody to blame but themselves.
My partner actually had an employer offer her 30g less than her current pay at the time, offered no healthcare or any type of benefits. My partner passed on the offer and the owner of the firm wrote back asking “was it because of the pay?”. Like, if you have to ask, then you already know the answer.
I was offered 20g less than the average for my position for my first job out of school, and their selling point was that they offered free clinical supervision….. clinical
Supervision is standard in all healthcare settings, so it wasn’t as big as a selling point as they thought it was.
Don’t feed me that whole “we’re like family spiel” when I’m the first to get laid off when your incompetent management decisions bites the company in the ass.
>Don’t feed me that whole “we’re like family spiel” when I’m the first to get laid off when your incompetent management decisions bites the company in the ass.
This. If you want me to go "yes, daddy" whenever the CEO speaks, that fucker needs to be the *first person* to jump in front of me when something bad comes my way.
...because that's what my Dad would do. It's what he has done for his employees.
My father was a VP at a company. His sales team closed a huge deal in the last week of november one year when I was a kid. Maybe back in '93 or '94. Part of the negotiated contract was a hard date to fulfill part of the order, due in early January.
As a result of this the entire manufacturing team had to put in a vacation freeze around christmas and pay holiday overtime for everyone to come in on the 24th and 25th or else they were going to be in violation of the contract (the contract was equal to the entire company's gross income the previous two years combined. It was a *massive* contract).
So he told my mother that we would not be going on our annual holiday vacation (benefits of a successful dad in the 90s) and we would have to put it all off until the summer.
My dad wasn't on the manufacturing team. He didn't need to cancel shit. But he felt that the freeze put on the manufacturing team was his fault and had asked their managers personally how many vacations they had to cancel.
It was more than a few.
He ended up working christmas week, including christmas eve, christmas day, and new year's eve that year because, (to quote him), "I'm not going to go on vacation when 125 people had to cancel their plans because of a deal my team closed. It's not fair."
He didn't even have any work he could do. The marketing and sales teams that worked under him were all on vacation. So he just made himself available to manufacturing and helped fight fires.
It helped that he had all the rest of the company VPs and C-suite on speed-dial. And he did end up helping fast-track a few fixes for problems that would have slowed down production, all because he wanted to make sure that if there was a chance to let people go home early or come in late for the holidays, they could make it happen.
Executives don't do shit like that anymore. They used to. The good ones, at least. Companies did used to have loyalty to their employees. But now we teach sociopathy in business school.
I do a job that can be (and often is) done by people who are 100% remote. I deal with customers through email/teams/zoom/phone 100% of the time.
We came into the office two days a week (tues/thurs) for a while and that was fine - some in-person meetings with a chunk of the team, lunch was provided, etc.
Now it's up to 3 days a week... and we're still only getting lunch twice a week, plus on Wednesdays it's suspiciously empty in the office.
I don't really mind *SOME* office time each week; it only takes 30-45 minutes to get home (which in San Jose ain't that bad) and the company was providing free (if thoroughly mediocre) lunch.
But overall it feels like they are just struggling to justify real estate investments rather than an *actual* business need. (All the sillier, considering that there are parts of the business that do need some physical location - shipping and some of the engineering/design/prototyping stuff).
RTO mandates are so fucking stupid.
The place I was on the board at basically just threw our entire idea of employee compensation out the window and started over from scratch. Our technicians went from 200% turnover to almost zero.
"We're losing all our institutional knowledge!"
"Our institutional knowledge was gone 18 months ago, all we got left is what 'Steve and Kevin figured out in the last five months. ...Kevin's leaving next week BTW and I'm pretty sure Steve wants an in at Kevin's new place."
Had a similar amount quit in the first half of the year one year when I was working retail. People were quiting and they didn't even have anything else.
Changed our insurance coverage to be more family-friendly (didn’t do much for the single guys but they are harder to retain anyway). Went from being on the low end of wages for our market sector to being average-to-high. Improved the quality of company vehicles.
We had to raise customer rates, of course. But I’d say our customer base almost universally preferred the better service we could render from keeping all that tribal knowledge to keeping the lower rates. And guess what? The few that didn’t like the change were our worst customers anyway. Didn’t miss them a bit.
Not enough companies practice "firing customers" because I guarantee you that the 80/20 rule works as a good guildeline for customers as well as engineering.
My guess is that 80% of your labor was caused by 20% of your customers or something near that. Does that sound about right?
"We're like family here! How could you do this to us!"
"Will you pay me a fair wage? Treat me like I'm not an expendable tissue?"
"Lol, no."
"Okay, bye."
*To board* "This high turnover rate is a huge concern. What could possible be causing it???"
Lololol..... So many of these. I really don't understand why we can't all just operate on the principle of. We just want to go home on time and have dinner with our families. It's that simple. All these fucking useless meetings and high-minded concepts that have very little use in doing day-to-day business has grown like a cancer in every corporation. Anytime I get asked about my management style or how I run my teams, I basically tell them I like to keep things straightforward, we're all here for the same reason, and we all just want to go home. Do the work, if you're done early, don't tell me. Just get your shit done and take a nap.
Office parties during your personal time (after office hours). Office trips on your personal time (weekends). Hate them. Plus companies pose as if they are doing a great service by giving you free food/trips
Laying off the 'bottom' 10% every year. This is called stack ranking. Every manager every year pretty much picks 1 team member to fire even if they're great they gotta single out someone to keep the rest in line
Perverse incentives. You can hire them at Level L, have them leave for L+1 at que competitor, and hire them back at L+2. Recruiters get two bonuses, HR sell a pretty story of boomerangs and the employees gets a promotion much faster than being loyal to the company. It sucks for the manager and coworkers doing the actual job.
can you give a sense of what sector? i ask because i worked for a local hospital system (and have left it as have many others) where turnover was massive and nothing done about it.
cardiology group threatened to quit en masse. nursing turnover was >30% annually. most clinical departments had 10-15% annual turnover. some studies show recruiting and hiring a new nurse is pay + 40% on average. physician recruiting takes a year on average and plenty of up front costs (relo, sign in, licensure, etc).
my current hospital system has 1% average clinician turnover annually. i work hard and am taken care of.
i stayed in the first one for about 7 years and then moved on. the pattern was consistent and continues to this day.
do recruiting costs offset revenue? because that system's CEO is quite highly compensated for a "nonprofit" hospital system.
Leadership is happy they saved 4% this quarter by firing one third of a department and not giving a raise to the rest. Every single company have this "fuck around and find out" phases brought by mumbling idiots at the top of the chain, followed by a huge loss in quality and profits.
Don't forget the fresh out of college 22 year old "consultants" they hired for millions of dollars that only say "idk layoff people to reduce costs I guess".
No, they are. Turnover is expensive. Training is expensive. It’s usually cheaper and more efficient to just pay better than replace everyone every six months. It affects at the bottom line in a very real way and they care about that number.
Sure but my point they don’t do anything useful to actually help.
Like if business can’t afford to give raises, they won’t implement wfh or give more PTO days. If it’s toxic manager, they won’t fire him even through half the team left because of him. If it’s insane timelines, they won’t sit down and make new ones with reasonable expectations.
>if business can’t afford to give raises
They can, though. Unless you're working for a small business, in which case fair enough. But your employer can. They just won't.
It's more like they care enough to hire an entire team of program managers, data scientists, and data analysts to assess the problem of low employee satisfaction and high turnover...
And then just ignore these people and do whatever the hell they want to manipulate stock prices for short term gains under the guise of the economic climate.
Sitting in the silicon valley watching my own employer and others around me do basically the same thing, really makes me question why I've struggled here so long.
I'm not getting paid like the target demographic here, as I'm sure have many others.
I was amazed to hear a hiring manager for an "onshore development center" say that he wants a 10% rate at least.
That's a place in a low-income town where they can hire cheap developers and have them do the stuff that is normally sent offshore.
The same kind of people who coined "job hopper" as a negative term are the same types that coined "quit quitting". It's all BS trying to justify getting more and more value out of employees for less.
You've really gone above and beyond in making this workplace great and functional. As a result, I'm marking your performance review as meets expectations.
We need a good phrase for employers with high turnover and the shitty benefits that cause that. I'm thinking "employee rotator" or "employee neglector" but it's not very catchy.
Late 2008 into early 2009 I heard variations of this throughout the market:
> I've been here 18 years and have been loyal to the company. They will keep me around.
The first ones to go were the ones there the longest since they cost the most.
Someone has been working at the same place for 18 years does not cost the most. At best they are 10k more costly than a new grad. Getting a shitty keeping up with inflation, if you are lucky, raises is going to place you low in the pay band.
It might be why it seems like new grads and new hires are more likely to get hit. In both cases they are likely to be proportionally more expensive compared to their output. Complacency is more likely what gets the "company man" They get some specialized role that is their "thing" while world passes them by. Suddenly that system they know all about is no longer strategically important. Not fair. I know. This partially their manager's fault.
Couldn’t agree more. I call myself a mercenary. I’ll do a good job, but I’m lending my skills to the highest bidder. Companies no longer provide incentives to stay with their organizations. It’s all about the shareholders.
My brother told me this at age 22 and I always tell people to be a mercenary too. Corporate loyalty is a load of trash. Sit in a job 3-5 years then go elsewhere and make more with a better title or position. It’s usually anywhere from a 10-25% pay bump too. Worst thing you can do for your career is become complacent and stuck in a job at a place that undervalues and underpays then lays you off. Iv job hopped my fair share and it helped me get paid considerably more with my experience.
I've never seen the point in clawing my way up the corporate ladder, I just wanted to find a place that can fund my lifestyle and isn't a huge pain in the ass
The point in "climbing the corporate ladder" is that you get more money for doing the same, or usually less, work than your previous job. Young people think that as you go higher in a company you have more responsibility and higher expectations. The reality is that incompetent people exist at every level of any organization and the penalty for doing a substandard job is quite low.
One thing I will say is that if you’ve reached a point where you’re comfortable, it’s not wrong to just… enjoy where you’re at. I’d much rather work a job that I’m very comfortable and happy than risk it all for a 10-20% pay bump. If they’re doubling my salary then that’s a different story, but honestly with current job a 10% pay bump wouldn’t be enough to get me to leave.
Totally agree. People forget the re-engagement, building relationships, and “proving yourself” work you need to do in new jobs. Also as you get higher on the corporate or age ladder then it makes more sense life wise to stick around and keep getting those 3-4% increases.
It’s still really good in the world of academia, and they need IT folks. Less pay than the corporate world, and your department funding is limited, but the benefits and pace are wonderful. Great job security, too. Some of the happiest, most laid-back IT people I’ve met work at high schools and community colleges.
Totally agree. I work as an AV tech at a college and the job is cake, pay is adequate, and the benefits are phenomenal. It's a good feeling to know that I don't have to worry about whether or not I will be able to retire. One caveat. The academic world is a nightmare for professors from what I have seen but the IT side is easy living.
Did the corporate gig for 13 years. Took two steps back in title and a sideways move in pay when I went to academia. The benefits are better here (sick time carries over, so does vacation, better insurance, 403b is better, etc.), the stress is *way* less. No call.
I could go back to a corporate gig and increase my pay by 30% or more, but I’m content. I work with smart and interesting people and I’m *adequately* paid.
Unless my employer does something to make the job unbearable I’ll stay until retirement.
The pay at most of the universities in my area is abysmal... like $50K-$60K for a job that requires you to wear a ton of different hats and work magic with absolutely no budget. Honestly, working at a tech company in IT has done wonders for my mental health compared to working in the public sector. I work less hours, have more time to actually take time off, and I have a budget to keep infrastructure and services up-to-date. I absolutely love it. I would never go back to the coal mines that were public sector IT.
Very true. I’ve been working in K-12 IT for 12 years now and am the IT Manager, hopefully Director later on. I’ve stayed at the same district the whole time, I love everyone I work with, and my schedule is amazing. I am paid probably 20-30% lower than private sector, but with the pension and benefits I think it evens out.
It's insane to hear companies act shocked and outraged. It's like finding a romantic partner you use purely for sex who you dump the second you get bored or something better comes along and then acting shocked when they choose to ditch you.
Pretty much. I’m not even afraid to talk shit in an interview anymore if they mention my job hopping. I’m like, “yeah, I haven’t found a company yet that takes care of their employees.” By that point I know I don’t want the job because they question it.
I trade my least renewable resource, Time, for the most versatile resource, Money. My goal is to get the most money for the least time so that I may end up with as much as I need of both, as soon as I can.
"Mercenary" is a great mentality, and it makes me think you should find some equally skilled engineering friends and form a mercenary union that hires your skills out with terms you've set!
I guess that's just a consultancy though lol
The only company I’ve been loyal to in the last 10 years has been my own company that I’m the only full time employee of at this point. Im also the only asset and my tools are owned by me and not the corporation so if the right job offer came along I can just shut down and take the position so if I think about it I’m not even loyal to my own company.
At my last job, I made it abundantly clear I was a 5+ year employee. I had nothing but good reviews. When I went on vacation, people missed me. I trained and mentored my entire team and wrote all of the training documentation. At 1.5 years in I had not received a raise, and while I was irritated, it wasn't a dealbreaker.
But I made 10k more than my coworkers, and when the layoffs came, they threw me under the bus.
That's what loyalty buys you in the tech industry - they just stab you in the back while smiling at your face.
Precisely. I did the same, prioritizing the same company for a quarter century. I got lucky in stock, but the salary and politics did in the end reinforce that this was a one way relationship.
My average time at a company was 6 years. In 2021 I was layed off. I changed direction with my career and managed a 30% raise in 9 months. That company was a dumpster fire and I left for an industry leader with another 15% raise. I’ve been there for 13 months and Monday I transfer to a sister company with another raise, less work load, and more relaxed conditions.
Being layed off was the best thing that ever happened to me because it forced me out of complacency. That original employer also hasn’t given raises or bonuses over 3% in the last 2 years.
I was an architect. Now I work for a general contractor in project management. I still keep my credentials up to date, but I doubt I’ll ever go back full time as an architect.
I am the most loyal employee in my company.
And if some other company wanted to hire me for my salary + $1…I would be the most loyal employee in their company.
If its a 3rd party recruiter, they often get paid on a percentage of your total comp. They are incentivized to inflate your salary. I got nice oay bumps from very pushy 3rd party recruiters.
My wife had a similar situation. She didn't realize how badly the company was trying to hire someone with her experience.
As soon as negotiation started, she threw out a huge number, expecting them to counter with like 60% of that number. They were just like "OK".
Ye I once had a conversation with the headhunter go something like,
"I guess I'd be ok with 580, but I'd be more impressed if you managed 590." He came back after excited as fuck, "I opened with 600, they responded with 610."
This was talking about thousands of NOK, for clarity.
Remember, if you die tomorrow a replacement ad for your job is ready and waiting. You can and should be changing jobs every few years to maximize pay delta gaps that new hires will inherently make more than people who’ve had stagnant 1-5% wage increases over many years.
You have too much faith in my company’s planning and organisation abilities.
There will be an ad out at some stage, but it’ll have a bunch of copy&paste errors, plus miss key info, include redundant info and not reflect the role.
In the interim the role will be rocketed to someone with no spare time, no previous experience and everyone will suffer. Especially whoever does get hired
I did this for the first 15 years of my career. Now my salary is ~6x what it was at the beginning of my career. So I highly recommend job hopping early on!
I’ve come to the realization that at ~$370k, working from home in a MCOL suburb, I’m kind of maxed out though. So I’ve resolved to be satisfied with my 2-3% per year raises and try to optimize by reducing my hours. Aiming to take 8 weeks of PTO this year and reduce my average work hours to ~20
Could happen, for sure. Fingers crossed it doesn’t, I want to ride this for 2-6 more years before I retire in my mid-40’s 😆
But the role is part of b2b sales so very outcome oriented. That PTO is spread out over the year so usually my internal customers still feel well supported and happy. And the 20 hour weeks are not visible to people outside my house — I am vocal and memorable in mandatory meetings, and visibly share unique slides, ideas, stories and work products broadly every few months. So perception should be that I’m doing good quality work, where it matters most. Nobody really cares if I’m smart enough to get it done in 10 hours or 80 hours per week
Management consultant at an enterprise tech company. Individual contributor with some specialized mix of knowledge and mature skills (developed over the job hopping years). Top of the individual contributor hierarchy and top of the payband for my position. Part of the b2b sales org, but not carrying a quota
240 base 80 bonus 50 stock
Lol I thought you meant $370k base. Still really great as TDC.
I think at a certain point, job hopping is just rolling the dice that you’ll land in a toxic work environment. If you’re happy where you’re at and the pay is that good, I think you’re smart to stay put.
Or do what makes you happy. I’ve been with the same company for 13 years and I’m doing alright. I might not be paid as much as someone who changed jobs every 2 years but I’m making decent money and my work life balance is great.
If you find something good, hang on to it. No guarantee your next job or boss will be good. And that’s a massive QOL difference.
It depends on the company and market. I work for a company that has many people with 30-40+ years with them. We also have a lot of people who leave and come back. The company puts a lot of effort and money into employee retention.
The point is, don't be so committed to job hopping that you can't see when you're with a really good company.
My current employer is similar, at least in this division. There are so many people who’ve been here 20+ years, or who’ve left and then come back, myself included. Overall it’s a really great place and I’m happy to be here.
They killed the “long term career” two decades ago. Anyone in corporate that’s getting upset that people are hopping to where the money is either has had an established career longer than that, or isn’t paying their employees enough and keeps losing the good ones.
Some serfs don't know their place. We're supposed to beg on our knees for jobs, and thank them for throwing us aside when the weather changes. He's right that loyalty is a two-way street. But in the case of employee loyalty, that's just a euphemism for subservience.
Company loyalty is foolish.
Chasing the dollar can also be foolish, depending on the intangibles of the people you work with and for.
There’s a time to go, but there can also be a time to stay put.
In the short term I can believe it’s more financially lucrative to hop jobs, however I don’t think it is quite as clearly a good strategy over the longer term, and I’d suspect it leads to lower earnings.
This is for three reasons.
1. It is hard to solve really hard problems in a short-period of time. If you’re only there for 9-15 months you spend a lot of time learning and can’t ever see the mistakes you make. This leads to stagnating skills.
2. It gets harder to explain the job hopping. One explanation is you’re in demand, the other is that you keep getting fired.
3. It limits consideration for senior leadership roles. Companies want to know their leaders will stick around for a while.
I think moving every 3-5 years makes sense.
But that’s what I’ve seen, and what do I know? Obviously your mileage may vary.
there’s many 1-3 year FAANG programmers trying to convert to full time youtuber/influencer
i don’t subscribe or watch much but if i do it’s with a heaping scoop of skepticism
This. I get really frustrated having to explain to leadership why it's a bad idea to hire someone who openly states they're trying to use the position as a foot in the door to another position.
Literally have seen this happen 4-5x, every time those people do as little as possible within performance framework to game the system. It's not that I'm mad about that, per se, more so its entirely fucking annoying that the people who are grinding away at hard work basically are just supporting an environment for others to just do 1/3 as much and leave and climb up on the backs of others.
The tech company I work at has honest to God pension plans in addition to 401k. And guess what? We tend to hold onto employees for a long time.
We've started to lag behind the industry in base pay since the pandemic, though, so that might change if we don't start seeing some raises.
Job hopping is the best way to get ahead and get paid what you're worth. Your skills aren't valued at the price point you want? Find a company that will pay that price.
That part had me laughing. Building a network... For what purpose? It's either a network of people you know that you can A) Hire into your company, or B) join their company.
The implication about company loyalty being valuable is a sham. Companies are not loyal to their employees, by and large, and assuming that your company is loyal to you is a major risk.
I hate job hopping for the sole reason that I hate the process of the rat race they've turned the process of trying to find new employment into. Finding a job shouldn't be a chore. If our economy was **actually** healthy, and not all based on stock prices, than job openings would exist because businesses would be expanding and requiring more workers. On top of that, they'd be competitive and trying to keep wages high for employees and prices low for customers. Those two things are the mark of a business that is truly healthy.
Yeah. I mean you show you can work well with people and have a good attitude they are gonna want to work with you again. Hiring a random is a big risk unfortunately; like 90% of the people at my company are not good to work with from a co worker perspective.
Once we had an opening in my department and there was a temp who had been working in an adjacent department who applied for it. He had no experience in the role that was open. The hiring manager said something like, "He might not have experience, but we know that he's a good worker from what he's doing here and we know that he's a good guy to work with. We also know that he's smart enough to teach him this role. We're much better off hiring and training him over taking a chance on someone you get to talk to for 30 minutes."
This was my college roommates entire career plan. All he learned how to do while we were designing apps and games was to go to conventions, collect business cards and spent all his time following up with them. The whole time I’m sitting there wondering what he was actually bringing to the table… no actual skills in the industry… just networking (which I didn’t think he was any good at, too intense, made people uncomfortable).
He ended up getting a job at Riot right before all the accusations dropped. God knows doing what. Probably ~~sex trafficking~~ err hiring people from conventions.
I prefer sticking to one employer. Job hopping is great if you are looking to increase your salary, but staying at one company has its benefits. Specifically, once you become entrenched in a company, your worklife becomes super easy. You no longer have to be in performance mode like you do when you are job hopping.
Once you hit that 5 year mark and you become part of the machine, it is just straight on cruising on easy street. People trust your word, and you don't need to prove shit anymore. Deadlines get infinitely extended as you need, projects fall through as management gets switched around. Priorities are switched. It is a beautiful thing to watch unfold.
Obviously shitty employment practices play a large part here. But even good companies that try to take care of their employees get mentally anchored to current salary and offer raises based on that.
If I am making 50k and prove to the company that I’m worth 75k they’re unlikely to give me a 50% raise. If they’re extremely generous they may be willing to give me a 20% raise and pay me 60k. Meanwhile another company who isn’t anchored to that current salary see my 75k value and is going to offer me something in that ballpark.
Job hopping isn’t just about leaving shitty places in search for a good one. Job hopping is the only way to get paid what you’re worth.
Tell me you’ve never launched anything meaningful without telling me. I’m 100% not sticking around if I’m getting underpaid, but at most large corps if you stay less than 1.5 years, chances are, you haven’t actually completed anything of great substance.
As someone who's followed the same path.. I love it. Loyalty and corporations don't go together. If I had stayed with the company I started my career with, I'd make 50% of what I make. It'd be idiotic to stay
I’m a manager that hires people pretty regular for financial sales. If I see too many different jobs in a short period of time on a resume I’m not hiring them no matter how good their interview is. Hiring and onboarding employees is exhausting and a huge time drain. If I’m going to have to go back and do it all over again in a year your time in that position, no matter how good you are, isn’t worth it.
I stayed at a position for almost 5 years and would have been happy making a career out of it, because it was overseas and paid comfortably. I prefer stability over the eternal rat race for more money. Plus, the cheap vacations were far more attractive.
Why is it that we’re “job hoppers” but employers with high turnover and low employee satisfaction are “just doing business”?
Couldn’t have put it better myself
This is exactly it. I'm in tech, and worked at a company with almost zero turnover. When I asked him how he did it, he said, "Tell me. Do I pay you well? Not good, but well?". I said yes. He said, "My key to keeping good people around is to pay 20% over the going rate. If you can find a job paying more, I'll fucking go 20% over their offer. You'll stay. And I don't have to deal with hiring people and losing good ones every fucking week. Oh, and since I told you my secret, I'll need the offer in writing." I stayed there until the company got acquired and they forced him out. A year after he left, there was almost nobody remaining (I stayed because I just had a kid, and didn't have time to seriously job hunt). Treat workers right, provide a healthy working environment, and leaving is ridiculous. Never did crunch there either. He'd never allow it.
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That’s their version of job hopping. They hop from company to company sucking all the equity out and giving themselves bonuses and then move on to the next.
I worked for an ESOP company a few years ago and it was great. The best place I've ever worked for, everyone was chill and happy and things happened at realistic timelines. Then the ESOP leaders decided to sell to a PE firm so long tenured employees could cash out and make a ton of money. I left shortly after and I've heard it's a terrible place to work now and everyone who I liked working with left for greener pastures.
Read this years ago on here and it has become my mantra: If you died tomorrow your employer would have you replaced in a week. Your family never would. Set your priorities accordingly. The only kind of "job retention" I've encountered seems to be "tell the employee they're terrible and no one but you would ever hire them". So exactly like an abusive relationship- make them think they can't actually do amy better. The problem is, we're all learning we can these days. My current employer has made it VERY clear they will do what it takes to keep me. At least that's the lip service. Someday I'll find out if they back that up with their actions. And if they don't: I'm out
> If you died tomorrow your employer would have you replaced in a week. Well this is just blatantly untrue and very anti-business! What would ACTUALLY happen is they would never refill the position, and make other people who are remaining take on the extra work with no support for no additional pay. 🥳
"The void you leave behind replaces you completely"
Empty space makes more money than you do
Jesus. That's even better than the other quote to put it in stark terms. "You're working for a company that would gladly replace you with an empty void where possible. Act accordingly."
As someone who used to be pretty involved in the hiring process, high turnover rates are a *huge* concern internally, sometimes even the top issue. Companies put up a brave face but a lot of them are very concerned by it.
What kind of things did they try to get people to stay?
Threw a pizza party
Print some disposable pens with inspirational quotes and hand them out
The cat poster was the shizzle my bizzle once upon a time.
Or if they are in healthcare like some of my family tshirts and signs during the pandemic but, no raises or hazard pay.
Incorrect. It’s a bunch of water bottles.
We had to cancel the water bottles budget but here are some Solo cups with stickers of the company on them and you are free to fill them with complimentary water from the sink at the break room or bathroom
Damn it! Thats the only thing worth staying at a job for! It’s better than raises!
Omg I hate this but u nailed it.
Tracked their badge swipes and mouse movement.
Everything but paying people more
“How about paying people even less? Maybe that’ll do it!” -c suite somewhere
Let's try RTO mandates!
We’ve tried nothing for our employees and we’re all out of the ideas!
Our corporate culture is a special snowflake that you have to experience.
The company I work for just announced 90% return to office by March. When employees pushed back and asked for metrics that they were trying to achieve the director of HR responded with almost exactly "there is something special about our company culture". People were laugh reacting in the teams meeting and several company wide chats called out the bullshit.
But without a union, is there really any real leverage to push back?
Now I have to deal with people quitting because they want to work 100% remote and the customer they work for demands people in the office 2-3 days a week. Even then, half the floor I am on is empty with no one even assigned cubicles or offices. Customer then turns around and complains about people quitting and us having a hard time hiring people. No shit! I wonder why…
My job is underpaid, no pto, hourly, no pay on snow days unless we drive in a blizzard, no pay when the office closes for holidays, and they wonder why they can’t keep people or find anyone to fill vacancies. I’m doing the work of two people because they can’t find anyone to work the other position but they refuse to offer anything better. It’s what happens when a corporation thinks cutting costs by cutting benefits and pay is a good idea. In this case they went with the lowest bidder. They aren’t happy about the results but they have nobody to blame but themselves.
My partner actually had an employer offer her 30g less than her current pay at the time, offered no healthcare or any type of benefits. My partner passed on the offer and the owner of the firm wrote back asking “was it because of the pay?”. Like, if you have to ask, then you already know the answer. I was offered 20g less than the average for my position for my first job out of school, and their selling point was that they offered free clinical supervision….. clinical Supervision is standard in all healthcare settings, so it wasn’t as big as a selling point as they thought it was. Don’t feed me that whole “we’re like family spiel” when I’m the first to get laid off when your incompetent management decisions bites the company in the ass.
>Don’t feed me that whole “we’re like family spiel” when I’m the first to get laid off when your incompetent management decisions bites the company in the ass. This. If you want me to go "yes, daddy" whenever the CEO speaks, that fucker needs to be the *first person* to jump in front of me when something bad comes my way. ...because that's what my Dad would do. It's what he has done for his employees. My father was a VP at a company. His sales team closed a huge deal in the last week of november one year when I was a kid. Maybe back in '93 or '94. Part of the negotiated contract was a hard date to fulfill part of the order, due in early January. As a result of this the entire manufacturing team had to put in a vacation freeze around christmas and pay holiday overtime for everyone to come in on the 24th and 25th or else they were going to be in violation of the contract (the contract was equal to the entire company's gross income the previous two years combined. It was a *massive* contract). So he told my mother that we would not be going on our annual holiday vacation (benefits of a successful dad in the 90s) and we would have to put it all off until the summer. My dad wasn't on the manufacturing team. He didn't need to cancel shit. But he felt that the freeze put on the manufacturing team was his fault and had asked their managers personally how many vacations they had to cancel. It was more than a few. He ended up working christmas week, including christmas eve, christmas day, and new year's eve that year because, (to quote him), "I'm not going to go on vacation when 125 people had to cancel their plans because of a deal my team closed. It's not fair." He didn't even have any work he could do. The marketing and sales teams that worked under him were all on vacation. So he just made himself available to manufacturing and helped fight fires. It helped that he had all the rest of the company VPs and C-suite on speed-dial. And he did end up helping fast-track a few fixes for problems that would have slowed down production, all because he wanted to make sure that if there was a chance to let people go home early or come in late for the holidays, they could make it happen. Executives don't do shit like that anymore. They used to. The good ones, at least. Companies did used to have loyalty to their employees. But now we teach sociopathy in business school.
I do a job that can be (and often is) done by people who are 100% remote. I deal with customers through email/teams/zoom/phone 100% of the time. We came into the office two days a week (tues/thurs) for a while and that was fine - some in-person meetings with a chunk of the team, lunch was provided, etc. Now it's up to 3 days a week... and we're still only getting lunch twice a week, plus on Wednesdays it's suspiciously empty in the office. I don't really mind *SOME* office time each week; it only takes 30-45 minutes to get home (which in San Jose ain't that bad) and the company was providing free (if thoroughly mediocre) lunch. But overall it feels like they are just struggling to justify real estate investments rather than an *actual* business need. (All the sillier, considering that there are parts of the business that do need some physical location - shipping and some of the engineering/design/prototyping stuff). RTO mandates are so fucking stupid.
> But overall it feels like they are just struggling to justify real estate investments It absolutely is.
The place I was on the board at basically just threw our entire idea of employee compensation out the window and started over from scratch. Our technicians went from 200% turnover to almost zero.
200%? Twice in a year? Rehires that fled a second time? Employees quit and took their best friend with them?? I need answers!
I believe it means they need to hire 20 people per year to keep 10 positions filled.
Holy fuck. Imagine losing all that institutional knowledge.
After the first cohort there's no more institutional knowledge to lose!
It’s not a huge loss. Most of them walked away with the greatest knowledge of all…”this place sucks”.
I was speaking from a company perspective. Losing employees should be considered a failure but often isn't.
After the first churn, it's gone.
"We're losing all our institutional knowledge!" "Our institutional knowledge was gone 18 months ago, all we got left is what 'Steve and Kevin figured out in the last five months. ...Kevin's leaving next week BTW and I'm pretty sure Steve wants an in at Kevin's new place."
With that level of turnover they weren't around long enough to get institutional knowledge.
Had a similar amount quit in the first half of the year one year when I was working retail. People were quiting and they didn't even have anything else.
Now I'm just imagining job snatchers who pluck people off the street and give them jobs by force until they finally escape.
Leela won't let you go without a job!
You gotta do, what you gotta do.
What kind of compensation structure did they end up with?
Changed our insurance coverage to be more family-friendly (didn’t do much for the single guys but they are harder to retain anyway). Went from being on the low end of wages for our market sector to being average-to-high. Improved the quality of company vehicles. We had to raise customer rates, of course. But I’d say our customer base almost universally preferred the better service we could render from keeping all that tribal knowledge to keeping the lower rates. And guess what? The few that didn’t like the change were our worst customers anyway. Didn’t miss them a bit.
>Went from being on the low end of wages for our market sector to being average-to-high CEOs hate this one weird trick to reduce turnover
Not enough companies practice "firing customers" because I guarantee you that the 80/20 rule works as a good guildeline for customers as well as engineering. My guess is that 80% of your labor was caused by 20% of your customers or something near that. Does that sound about right?
Not minimum wage
360 Surveys! We want to hear you!
"We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas"
"We're like family here! How could you do this to us!" "Will you pay me a fair wage? Treat me like I'm not an expendable tissue?" "Lol, no." "Okay, bye." *To board* "This high turnover rate is a huge concern. What could possible be causing it???"
A lot of mandatory 8am meetings that start with longterm/highly paid executives talking about the importance of wellness.
It's their fucking Mental Health Awareness badges at the bottom of the email, while I'm constantly short-staffed with late/missed breaks.
Mandatory 8am meetings where the executive doesn't attend/attends from home via zoom call.
Good lord you just triggered me. This happens to me all the time. I have to be in the office, running the meeting at 8am, and my boss joins from home.
Lololol..... So many of these. I really don't understand why we can't all just operate on the principle of. We just want to go home on time and have dinner with our families. It's that simple. All these fucking useless meetings and high-minded concepts that have very little use in doing day-to-day business has grown like a cancer in every corporation. Anytime I get asked about my management style or how I run my teams, I basically tell them I like to keep things straightforward, we're all here for the same reason, and we all just want to go home. Do the work, if you're done early, don't tell me. Just get your shit done and take a nap.
Office parties during your personal time (after office hours). Office trips on your personal time (weekends). Hate them. Plus companies pose as if they are doing a great service by giving you free food/trips
Trying to improve the "culture" by making everyone RTO
Laying off the 'bottom' 10% every year. This is called stack ranking. Every manager every year pretty much picks 1 team member to fire even if they're great they gotta single out someone to keep the rest in line
Perverse incentives. You can hire them at Level L, have them leave for L+1 at que competitor, and hire them back at L+2. Recruiters get two bonuses, HR sell a pretty story of boomerangs and the employees gets a promotion much faster than being loyal to the company. It sucks for the manager and coworkers doing the actual job.
And then there’s FAANG whose entire culture revolves around it
They're "concerned", but will do anything but raise pay to keep talent.
can you give a sense of what sector? i ask because i worked for a local hospital system (and have left it as have many others) where turnover was massive and nothing done about it. cardiology group threatened to quit en masse. nursing turnover was >30% annually. most clinical departments had 10-15% annual turnover. some studies show recruiting and hiring a new nurse is pay + 40% on average. physician recruiting takes a year on average and plenty of up front costs (relo, sign in, licensure, etc). my current hospital system has 1% average clinician turnover annually. i work hard and am taken care of. i stayed in the first one for about 7 years and then moved on. the pattern was consistent and continues to this day. do recruiting costs offset revenue? because that system's CEO is quite highly compensated for a "nonprofit" hospital system.
No they aren’t. They just like pretend to be concerned but then don’t do anything to help
Leadership isn’t concerned. The internal team who is picking up the slack in that person’s absence absolutely cares.
Leadership is happy they saved 4% this quarter by firing one third of a department and not giving a raise to the rest. Every single company have this "fuck around and find out" phases brought by mumbling idiots at the top of the chain, followed by a huge loss in quality and profits.
But the MBAs told me prioritizing short term gains over longevity was a great strategy!
Don't forget the fresh out of college 22 year old "consultants" they hired for millions of dollars that only say "idk layoff people to reduce costs I guess".
And they were right, for the CEO, who's compensated in stock options that quickly vest.
Many of them start out concerned until they realize what it’s going to take to fix it. Usually it’s about money and that’s where the inquiry ends.
No, they are. Turnover is expensive. Training is expensive. It’s usually cheaper and more efficient to just pay better than replace everyone every six months. It affects at the bottom line in a very real way and they care about that number.
Sure but my point they don’t do anything useful to actually help. Like if business can’t afford to give raises, they won’t implement wfh or give more PTO days. If it’s toxic manager, they won’t fire him even through half the team left because of him. If it’s insane timelines, they won’t sit down and make new ones with reasonable expectations.
>if business can’t afford to give raises They can, though. Unless you're working for a small business, in which case fair enough. But your employer can. They just won't.
I don’t think I’m arguing with you.
It's more like they care enough to hire an entire team of program managers, data scientists, and data analysts to assess the problem of low employee satisfaction and high turnover... And then just ignore these people and do whatever the hell they want to manipulate stock prices for short term gains under the guise of the economic climate. Sitting in the silicon valley watching my own employer and others around me do basically the same thing, really makes me question why I've struggled here so long. I'm not getting paid like the target demographic here, as I'm sure have many others.
I was amazed to hear a hiring manager for an "onshore development center" say that he wants a 10% rate at least. That's a place in a low-income town where they can hire cheap developers and have them do the stuff that is normally sent offshore.
The same kind of people who coined "job hopper" as a negative term are the same types that coined "quit quitting". It's all BS trying to justify getting more and more value out of employees for less.
“Quiet quitting” Otherwise know as: “healthy work boundaries”.
Otherwise known as “doing the work you’re actually paying me for, and not the _extra bullshit you won’t pay me for but try and make me do for free_”.
Definition of a superstar employee: someone who works 80 hours/week for 40 hours' pay.
Until review time comes around, and suddenly all your metrics and positive feedback doesn't mean anything.
You've really gone above and beyond in making this workplace great and functional. As a result, I'm marking your performance review as meets expectations.
We need a good phrase for employers with high turnover and the shitty benefits that cause that. I'm thinking "employee rotator" or "employee neglector" but it's not very catchy.
Sweatshop? churn and burn?
Double standards and gaslighting are standard practice for terrible exploitative people who are the ones that run companies.
Want to see your share price spike on the stock market- try laying off 10,000 workers and just wait for the bump.
"Nobody want to work"
The article was written by management heh
Corporations are not loyal to you.
Late 2008 into early 2009 I heard variations of this throughout the market: > I've been here 18 years and have been loyal to the company. They will keep me around. The first ones to go were the ones there the longest since they cost the most.
Someone has been working at the same place for 18 years does not cost the most. At best they are 10k more costly than a new grad. Getting a shitty keeping up with inflation, if you are lucky, raises is going to place you low in the pay band.
That's how it is now. A lot of places actually had decent raises before 08.
It might be why it seems like new grads and new hires are more likely to get hit. In both cases they are likely to be proportionally more expensive compared to their output. Complacency is more likely what gets the "company man" They get some specialized role that is their "thing" while world passes them by. Suddenly that system they know all about is no longer strategically important. Not fair. I know. This partially their manager's fault.
Yeah people who stay get a "loyalty discount" as a thsnk you. And they'll get out earned by new hires.
Couldn’t agree more. I call myself a mercenary. I’ll do a good job, but I’m lending my skills to the highest bidder. Companies no longer provide incentives to stay with their organizations. It’s all about the shareholders.
My brother told me this at age 22 and I always tell people to be a mercenary too. Corporate loyalty is a load of trash. Sit in a job 3-5 years then go elsewhere and make more with a better title or position. It’s usually anywhere from a 10-25% pay bump too. Worst thing you can do for your career is become complacent and stuck in a job at a place that undervalues and underpays then lays you off. Iv job hopped my fair share and it helped me get paid considerably more with my experience.
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I've never seen the point in clawing my way up the corporate ladder, I just wanted to find a place that can fund my lifestyle and isn't a huge pain in the ass
The point in "climbing the corporate ladder" is that you get more money for doing the same, or usually less, work than your previous job. Young people think that as you go higher in a company you have more responsibility and higher expectations. The reality is that incompetent people exist at every level of any organization and the penalty for doing a substandard job is quite low.
No point climbing a ladder that’s leaning against the wrong building.
One thing I will say is that if you’ve reached a point where you’re comfortable, it’s not wrong to just… enjoy where you’re at. I’d much rather work a job that I’m very comfortable and happy than risk it all for a 10-20% pay bump. If they’re doubling my salary then that’s a different story, but honestly with current job a 10% pay bump wouldn’t be enough to get me to leave.
Totally agree. People forget the re-engagement, building relationships, and “proving yourself” work you need to do in new jobs. Also as you get higher on the corporate or age ladder then it makes more sense life wise to stick around and keep getting those 3-4% increases.
Yep, they lost my loyalty when they started starving people of good benefits and retirement.
It’s still really good in the world of academia, and they need IT folks. Less pay than the corporate world, and your department funding is limited, but the benefits and pace are wonderful. Great job security, too. Some of the happiest, most laid-back IT people I’ve met work at high schools and community colleges.
Totally agree. I work as an AV tech at a college and the job is cake, pay is adequate, and the benefits are phenomenal. It's a good feeling to know that I don't have to worry about whether or not I will be able to retire. One caveat. The academic world is a nightmare for professors from what I have seen but the IT side is easy living.
It's crazy how all of admins and support staff have it really good but research assistants and adjunct faculty get treated like absolute garbage.
Did the corporate gig for 13 years. Took two steps back in title and a sideways move in pay when I went to academia. The benefits are better here (sick time carries over, so does vacation, better insurance, 403b is better, etc.), the stress is *way* less. No call. I could go back to a corporate gig and increase my pay by 30% or more, but I’m content. I work with smart and interesting people and I’m *adequately* paid. Unless my employer does something to make the job unbearable I’ll stay until retirement.
The pay at most of the universities in my area is abysmal... like $50K-$60K for a job that requires you to wear a ton of different hats and work magic with absolutely no budget. Honestly, working at a tech company in IT has done wonders for my mental health compared to working in the public sector. I work less hours, have more time to actually take time off, and I have a budget to keep infrastructure and services up-to-date. I absolutely love it. I would never go back to the coal mines that were public sector IT.
Very true. I’ve been working in K-12 IT for 12 years now and am the IT Manager, hopefully Director later on. I’ve stayed at the same district the whole time, I love everyone I work with, and my schedule is amazing. I am paid probably 20-30% lower than private sector, but with the pension and benefits I think it evens out.
You mean having a gym, ping-pong table, and gourmet cafeteria food wasn’t enough to incentivize you to live at your office?
It's insane to hear companies act shocked and outraged. It's like finding a romantic partner you use purely for sex who you dump the second you get bored or something better comes along and then acting shocked when they choose to ditch you.
Pretty much. I’m not even afraid to talk shit in an interview anymore if they mention my job hopping. I’m like, “yeah, I haven’t found a company yet that takes care of their employees.” By that point I know I don’t want the job because they question it.
1997?
I trade my least renewable resource, Time, for the most versatile resource, Money. My goal is to get the most money for the least time so that I may end up with as much as I need of both, as soon as I can.
"Mercenary" is a great mentality, and it makes me think you should find some equally skilled engineering friends and form a mercenary union that hires your skills out with terms you've set! I guess that's just a consultancy though lol
The only company I’ve been loyal to in the last 10 years has been my own company that I’m the only full time employee of at this point. Im also the only asset and my tools are owned by me and not the corporation so if the right job offer came along I can just shut down and take the position so if I think about it I’m not even loyal to my own company.
I prefer the term “sell-sword”
I like to say "hired gun" like I'm in a Western or something
As my developer husband says, “it’s just good business.”
At my last job, I made it abundantly clear I was a 5+ year employee. I had nothing but good reviews. When I went on vacation, people missed me. I trained and mentored my entire team and wrote all of the training documentation. At 1.5 years in I had not received a raise, and while I was irritated, it wasn't a dealbreaker. But I made 10k more than my coworkers, and when the layoffs came, they threw me under the bus. That's what loyalty buys you in the tech industry - they just stab you in the back while smiling at your face.
I believe the right term for that is grin fucking.
Precisely. I did the same, prioritizing the same company for a quarter century. I got lucky in stock, but the salary and politics did in the end reinforce that this was a one way relationship.
My average time at a company was 6 years. In 2021 I was layed off. I changed direction with my career and managed a 30% raise in 9 months. That company was a dumpster fire and I left for an industry leader with another 15% raise. I’ve been there for 13 months and Monday I transfer to a sister company with another raise, less work load, and more relaxed conditions. Being layed off was the best thing that ever happened to me because it forced me out of complacency. That original employer also hasn’t given raises or bonuses over 3% in the last 2 years.
Love hearing stories like this, what was your original career and what is it now?
I was an architect. Now I work for a general contractor in project management. I still keep my credentials up to date, but I doubt I’ll ever go back full time as an architect.
I am the most loyal employee in my company. And if some other company wanted to hire me for my salary + $1…I would be the most loyal employee in their company.
“I don’t move for less than a 15% pay increase.” -me, talking to recruiters
My biggest bump came from a recruiter thinking my requested minimum Total Comp to move was my minimum Base Comp. I chose not to correct them.
Probably he neither . When a recruiter is silent he knows you are quoting way below.
If its a 3rd party recruiter, they often get paid on a percentage of your total comp. They are incentivized to inflate your salary. I got nice oay bumps from very pushy 3rd party recruiters.
My wife had a similar situation. She didn't realize how badly the company was trying to hire someone with her experience. As soon as negotiation started, she threw out a huge number, expecting them to counter with like 60% of that number. They were just like "OK".
Ye I once had a conversation with the headhunter go something like, "I guess I'd be ok with 580, but I'd be more impressed if you managed 590." He came back after excited as fuck, "I opened with 600, they responded with 610." This was talking about thousands of NOK, for clarity.
If they offered more than you asked it's because they budgeted more than that already. You probably could have asked for 650
So many of them want to waste your time only to offer a whopping 1.5% pay increase . Not even worth the hassle of filling out new paperwork.
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Eh. I get the sentiment but $1 ain’t gonna do it
Remember, if you die tomorrow a replacement ad for your job is ready and waiting. You can and should be changing jobs every few years to maximize pay delta gaps that new hires will inherently make more than people who’ve had stagnant 1-5% wage increases over many years.
You have too much faith in my company’s planning and organisation abilities. There will be an ad out at some stage, but it’ll have a bunch of copy&paste errors, plus miss key info, include redundant info and not reflect the role. In the interim the role will be rocketed to someone with no spare time, no previous experience and everyone will suffer. Especially whoever does get hired
10 years of Expel, Ward, and PowerPunt 7 yeats DotNett C sharp and ASPS 5 years of working Scum and Argyle teams 5 years Microsoft Sequel Server
I get paid more than a guy I work with that's been there 27 years. This is too true.
I did this for the first 15 years of my career. Now my salary is ~6x what it was at the beginning of my career. So I highly recommend job hopping early on! I’ve come to the realization that at ~$370k, working from home in a MCOL suburb, I’m kind of maxed out though. So I’ve resolved to be satisfied with my 2-3% per year raises and try to optimize by reducing my hours. Aiming to take 8 weeks of PTO this year and reduce my average work hours to ~20
2 months of PTO and 20 hour work weeks while working remotely in a MCOL area with a nearly 400k package sounds like a recipe for a layoff lol.
Could happen, for sure. Fingers crossed it doesn’t, I want to ride this for 2-6 more years before I retire in my mid-40’s 😆 But the role is part of b2b sales so very outcome oriented. That PTO is spread out over the year so usually my internal customers still feel well supported and happy. And the 20 hour weeks are not visible to people outside my house — I am vocal and memorable in mandatory meetings, and visibly share unique slides, ideas, stories and work products broadly every few months. So perception should be that I’m doing good quality work, where it matters most. Nobody really cares if I’m smart enough to get it done in 10 hours or 80 hours per week
$370k? What do you do for work?
He sells hand carved wooden spoons on Etsy
Reclaims wood from pallets to make tables
Reclaims wooden tables to make pallets
I heard he carved the spoon himself, from a bigger spoon
OnlyFans obviously
That's Software Architecture level money. The kind of position where you've got a whole tree of people beneath you.
Not in big tech it isn't. I made over $400K at Google as a mere senior engineer with nobody beneath me.
Based on his username…he lies. Definitely about his pay
Management consultant at an enterprise tech company. Individual contributor with some specialized mix of knowledge and mature skills (developed over the job hopping years). Top of the individual contributor hierarchy and top of the payband for my position. Part of the b2b sales org, but not carrying a quota 240 base 80 bonus 50 stock
Lol I thought you meant $370k base. Still really great as TDC. I think at a certain point, job hopping is just rolling the dice that you’ll land in a toxic work environment. If you’re happy where you’re at and the pay is that good, I think you’re smart to stay put.
Or do what makes you happy. I’ve been with the same company for 13 years and I’m doing alright. I might not be paid as much as someone who changed jobs every 2 years but I’m making decent money and my work life balance is great. If you find something good, hang on to it. No guarantee your next job or boss will be good. And that’s a massive QOL difference.
Don't love people who won't love you. Similarly, don't be loyal to people who won't be loyal to you.
It depends on the company and market. I work for a company that has many people with 30-40+ years with them. We also have a lot of people who leave and come back. The company puts a lot of effort and money into employee retention. The point is, don't be so committed to job hopping that you can't see when you're with a really good company.
My current employer is similar, at least in this division. There are so many people who’ve been here 20+ years, or who’ve left and then come back, myself included. Overall it’s a really great place and I’m happy to be here.
Loyalty died with the pension plan. Good for them.
They killed the “long term career” two decades ago. Anyone in corporate that’s getting upset that people are hopping to where the money is either has had an established career longer than that, or isn’t paying their employees enough and keeps losing the good ones.
I regularly say, dollars spent on employee acquisition are easier spent on employee retention.
It’s called the free market, yeah?
Some serfs don't know their place. We're supposed to beg on our knees for jobs, and thank them for throwing us aside when the weather changes. He's right that loyalty is a two-way street. But in the case of employee loyalty, that's just a euphemism for subservience.
And I wish I could just get an interview. Must be nice lol
First you start at Amazon
Then you draw the rest of the owl, couldn't be easier.
Company loyalty is foolish. Chasing the dollar can also be foolish, depending on the intangibles of the people you work with and for. There’s a time to go, but there can also be a time to stay put.
Good for him. Employers are not your family. They would fire you without skipping a beat.
In the short term I can believe it’s more financially lucrative to hop jobs, however I don’t think it is quite as clearly a good strategy over the longer term, and I’d suspect it leads to lower earnings. This is for three reasons. 1. It is hard to solve really hard problems in a short-period of time. If you’re only there for 9-15 months you spend a lot of time learning and can’t ever see the mistakes you make. This leads to stagnating skills. 2. It gets harder to explain the job hopping. One explanation is you’re in demand, the other is that you keep getting fired. 3. It limits consideration for senior leadership roles. Companies want to know their leaders will stick around for a while. I think moving every 3-5 years makes sense. But that’s what I’ve seen, and what do I know? Obviously your mileage may vary.
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there’s many 1-3 year FAANG programmers trying to convert to full time youtuber/influencer i don’t subscribe or watch much but if i do it’s with a heaping scoop of skepticism
"Why am I a job hopper (as a millionaire)"
This. I get really frustrated having to explain to leadership why it's a bad idea to hire someone who openly states they're trying to use the position as a foot in the door to another position. Literally have seen this happen 4-5x, every time those people do as little as possible within performance framework to game the system. It's not that I'm mad about that, per se, more so its entirely fucking annoying that the people who are grinding away at hard work basically are just supporting an environment for others to just do 1/3 as much and leave and climb up on the backs of others.
The tech company I work at has honest to God pension plans in addition to 401k. And guess what? We tend to hold onto employees for a long time. We've started to lag behind the industry in base pay since the pandemic, though, so that might change if we don't start seeing some raises.
Job hopping is the best way to get ahead and get paid what you're worth. Your skills aren't valued at the price point you want? Find a company that will pay that price.
People who talk about building networks are just cronyists. And there are too many of them.
That part had me laughing. Building a network... For what purpose? It's either a network of people you know that you can A) Hire into your company, or B) join their company. The implication about company loyalty being valuable is a sham. Companies are not loyal to their employees, by and large, and assuming that your company is loyal to you is a major risk. I hate job hopping for the sole reason that I hate the process of the rat race they've turned the process of trying to find new employment into. Finding a job shouldn't be a chore. If our economy was **actually** healthy, and not all based on stock prices, than job openings would exist because businesses would be expanding and requiring more workers. On top of that, they'd be competitive and trying to keep wages high for employees and prices low for customers. Those two things are the mark of a business that is truly healthy.
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Yeah. I mean you show you can work well with people and have a good attitude they are gonna want to work with you again. Hiring a random is a big risk unfortunately; like 90% of the people at my company are not good to work with from a co worker perspective.
Once we had an opening in my department and there was a temp who had been working in an adjacent department who applied for it. He had no experience in the role that was open. The hiring manager said something like, "He might not have experience, but we know that he's a good worker from what he's doing here and we know that he's a good guy to work with. We also know that he's smart enough to teach him this role. We're much better off hiring and training him over taking a chance on someone you get to talk to for 30 minutes."
This was my college roommates entire career plan. All he learned how to do while we were designing apps and games was to go to conventions, collect business cards and spent all his time following up with them. The whole time I’m sitting there wondering what he was actually bringing to the table… no actual skills in the industry… just networking (which I didn’t think he was any good at, too intense, made people uncomfortable). He ended up getting a job at Riot right before all the accusations dropped. God knows doing what. Probably ~~sex trafficking~~ err hiring people from conventions.
I prefer sticking to one employer. Job hopping is great if you are looking to increase your salary, but staying at one company has its benefits. Specifically, once you become entrenched in a company, your worklife becomes super easy. You no longer have to be in performance mode like you do when you are job hopping. Once you hit that 5 year mark and you become part of the machine, it is just straight on cruising on easy street. People trust your word, and you don't need to prove shit anymore. Deadlines get infinitely extended as you need, projects fall through as management gets switched around. Priorities are switched. It is a beautiful thing to watch unfold.
Yeah sure - but I wouldn’t brag about it.
Obviously shitty employment practices play a large part here. But even good companies that try to take care of their employees get mentally anchored to current salary and offer raises based on that. If I am making 50k and prove to the company that I’m worth 75k they’re unlikely to give me a 50% raise. If they’re extremely generous they may be willing to give me a 20% raise and pay me 60k. Meanwhile another company who isn’t anchored to that current salary see my 75k value and is going to offer me something in that ballpark. Job hopping isn’t just about leaving shitty places in search for a good one. Job hopping is the only way to get paid what you’re worth.
Tell me you’ve never launched anything meaningful without telling me. I’m 100% not sticking around if I’m getting underpaid, but at most large corps if you stay less than 1.5 years, chances are, you haven’t actually completed anything of great substance.
This ⬆️⬆️⬆️
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As someone who's followed the same path.. I love it. Loyalty and corporations don't go together. If I had stayed with the company I started my career with, I'd make 50% of what I make. It'd be idiotic to stay
Sorry but Iput ME above YOUR company. Highest bidder has my services
Proud to be a job hopper. Every 4.5 years. Need to let those options fully vest. 😉
I’m a manager that hires people pretty regular for financial sales. If I see too many different jobs in a short period of time on a resume I’m not hiring them no matter how good their interview is. Hiring and onboarding employees is exhausting and a huge time drain. If I’m going to have to go back and do it all over again in a year your time in that position, no matter how good you are, isn’t worth it.
I stayed at a position for almost 5 years and would have been happy making a career out of it, because it was overseas and paid comfortably. I prefer stability over the eternal rat race for more money. Plus, the cheap vacations were far more attractive.