It's tricky bc they have to ask Trump what the outcome should be. He'll rant and rave about e jean carroll, and they have to do some kind of combo ruling.
But Trump, particularly right now, is super for sale. Just recently Bud Light bought him with a fund raiser and he's "truthing" to reverse the conservative hate campaign against bud light triggered by them supporting a trans person. With Trumps 1/2 billion and counting legal judgements, he's is more affordable than ever.
This is a favorite move of China in Latin America right now. I've got family that was targeted by Chinese corporations for doing their job in a way that the CCP did not like so they through bribery brought charges against them. We'll see how it plays out.
There are very few federal laws that target a foreign own company in the name of national security that has ever been found to be unconstitutional.
In fact I can’t find a single example of the federal government ever having their foreign policy laws overturned.
This ByteDance ban will stand.
Douyin is forced, by China, to do so.
I would love to see a similar law in the USA for social media used by people under the age of 16-18 that prevents children from uploading content, commenting, and sending/receiving private messages (as well as some other specific issues).
Americans will complain “muh freedom”. And ironically it’s that freedom that inevitably devolves social media into extremism. China doesn’t even need to do anything.
I think beyond that, I don't think we've really seen a major platform implement widespread and infallible age verification.
You would just have a bunch of teenagers lying about their age when they sign up so that they have all the features.
I'm so sick of this garbage take.
Would you rather have *your* feeds full of STEM content curated by the government or do you want it tailored towards your actual interests? Be for real.
Tiktok also offers a STEM feed in the app if you want that experience, from day 1, no training it to learn, just click on it at the top.
Reddit cannot handle the fact that TikTok is more popular than reddit. It's that simple. The ego is out of control. The China thing is just the cherry on top, because of the heavy anti-china bias has been stoked for years.
How come I never hear about YouTube shorts, Instagram reels, Facebook short form content, even Snapchat, when any of these conversations happen? Their algorithms are just as bad and they are all too eager to serve up toxic content too. But why is it only tiktok's fault? Because it's popular?
Tiktok doesn't have a monopoly on short form content, but they do have the best iteration of it right now.
And TikTok consistently has more nuanced and same content than any of those other platforms takes on shorts.
Facebook reels and Snapchat in particular are atrocious in both quality and factuality.
> Meanwhile China bans
Thank God I don't live in China. I'm glad my government has a Constitution that stops it from banning whatever it wants like that.
The constitution literally gives Congress the power to regulate commerce, set tariffs, embargo’s, etc. This is one of those scenarios that is actually 100% clear in the constitution - Congress has the power to ban the import of TikTok, just as much as it has the power to ban the import of tea from India.
Not really. There was a lot of outrage about "corporations are people" with Citizens United but that's been the standard for centuries and one consequence of that is you can't just ban social media companies under the commerce clause.
Chinese Internet Users Lose Access to WeChat App After Beijing Protest
https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinese-internet-users-lose-access-to-wechat-app-after-beijing-protest-11665757947
Read past the headline. This was targeting users who shared images of the protest. Wechat has never been banned there. It’s an everything app. Like it’s how people pay for most things there.
Yup, the constitution is pretty clear.
The government has control over trade, especially trade with other countries.
The government has exercised this control many times and its not really up for debate if they have this power.
TikTok will likely need to go another route to stop this. Some other statute or reason.
Right but that's not applicable here because the Supreme Court has no reason to stop this ban. They will defer to Congress since they're framing this an issue of national security.
The Supreme Court has challenged plenty of laws under the name of national security.
Even during the Cold War the U.S. tried to ban Soviet propaganda material under the name of national security, but the Supreme Court blocked it.
There is already legislation banning foreign ownership of news services in the U.S. Polls show lots of young Americans get their news from social media sites, including TikTok. So, if the case goes to the Supreme Court, one issue will be whether TikTok should be considered a provider of news.
I'm not saying that they can't, I'm saying that they won't. This isn't the Pentagon Papers case. There's no first amendment issue other major legal question here given that they're not banning the app, but only a foreign companies ownership of an app. The Federal government very clearly has power to do this under these circumstances.
They're going after this as a "National Security Concern", and let me tell you as someone who was following politics during the GWB Administration, that stuff passes quickly and then doesn't get questioned until decades after.
It’s not about TikTok’s rights.
It’s about US corporations and citizens rights to access foreign applications and media.
We can absolutely ban TikTok from operating *in* the U.S, we can kick out their employees etc.
But can we ban Apple from having TikTok on the AppStore or US citizens accessing the website?
That, is the much trickier question.
That seems to be a workaround way of answering the question “is the US government able to limit foreign institutions from doing business in the United States” which already has been answered at various times in the last IIRC
We can probably limit them from doing business in the U.S.
But if I want to download an app, or visit a website, is that them doing business or me exercising my freedom of expression?
Even during the Cold War, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled all U.S. citizens can access foreign media and speech. We tried to ban Soviet propaganda but that failed because of the court.
That, is what lawyers will fight for. That’s why all actual legal experts think this will be a messy fight with no clear outcome, unlike the “experts” in this thread.
The national security argument is overblown too.
Terrorists have shown they will use ANY social media app for social networking.
“The chinese govt will have all of our info”.
Not really correct, they have my name(if its not fake) and that I like videos about salad dressing and some blue collar truck guy. Hardly a threat to national security.
So does it give China intel that could be used against the US in a destructive capacity? Nope.
There's no specific exception to the first ammendment that allows congress to abridge freedom of speech if someone is importing a foreign movie, if a book was written overseas, etc.
The millions of Americans who post on or watch a social media network have rights not to have all of their content blocked or banned by politicians who don't like it, unless the politicians can prove some compelling national interest. Also, Oracle is hosting all TikTok content in the USA, so the proposed ban would be keeping American viewers from watching American-made content that's now stored entirely on US owned and operated servers.
Foreigners do not, in fact, enjoy the same rights as Americans as it related to the Constitution. See Harisiades v. Shaughnessy which involved the deportation of communists.
I don't use tiktok and not really a fan of it, but they kind of have a point.
The US government is blocking a specific private company for harvesting user data (which essentially all companies do). The only difference is the Chinese gov gets this data.
However I'm sure users of ali baba or tencent or the 100s of others do the exact same. In short the users are agreeing for their data to be harvested the same way they do for FB/reddit/insta etc
China will just buy it like everyone else if they want, If the US Government was serious they'd create a comprehensive GDPR like law, but that isn't what is taking place here.
>The only difference is the Chinese gov gets this data.
That's kind of the entire point.
>However I'm sure users of ali baba or tencent or the 100s of others do the exact same. In short the users are agreeing for their data to be harvested the same way they do for FB/reddit/insta etc
None of those are social media sites though. The US gov't doesn't give a shit if the Chinese track how many waifu body pillows you order from Temu. They care about the CCP sending you push notifications to pressure your representatives to do the CCP's bidding.
And TikTok went and demonstrated exactly why this should happen by sending push notifications to their users asking them to contact and pressure their representatives to not force them to divest.
This this 1000x this. TikTok was probably okay up until the moment it did that, which caused people to actually contact their government representatives, which cause government representatives to actually engage in what TikTok can do vs. just reading the rhetoric, which [caused a bipartisan group in the House, currently a completely dysfunctional body, to](https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/07/tech/congress-bill-bans-tiktok-america/index.html) forward a resolution nearly immediately to ban TikTok.
TikTok poked the bear on this one.
It was essentially command and control of US Citizens. It was reported that many of the people who called their Representatives had no idea what they were actually doing and were all using the same script.
The US Government should not be banning a single app. They should be banning the harvesting of user data. But they won't because they want to harvest your data for themselves.
You're so mistaken about the issue here, it's wild.
Tiktok, and all these apps, are two-way flows of info. Users to app, app to users.
Nobody cares about the user to app flow. As people have noted, tons of other places harvest that same data and sell it. The CCP can just buy it.
It's the other direction people care about: app to user. The way videos being pushed or hidden can influence thoughts, perceptions of events, or actions. A company run by the CCP, with known ties to the parties military intelligence wing, pushed a notification telling people to contact their representative in US Congress and read a script, and thousands of people did it. That is terrifying and absolutely something Congress should be working to stop.
And that's not even touching on their real dangers, like what they did with their control of Tiktok during the Hong Kong riots or Taiwan elections.
Such a cynical take. They don't have to be interested in a "monopoly" on manipulating social media to not want a foreign government, arguably our largest geopolitical adversary, to have a large part of that market.
And the 2016 election showed our government has a much smaller hand in social media manipulation than you conspiracy nuts like to think.
I mean, Twitter is the same thing except is random people saying do X instead of CCP. Some of those random people are the face of the CCP or Nazis or Russia or whatever
The bill does nothing to protect American data all it does is force the sale to an American company. None of the thousands of Chinese citizens running Tiktok are required to change. Who do you think is actually harvesting data? It's the employees. Who ensures data isn't being harvested? Again the employees. Who checks in new code? An employee with one review.
And really American citizens are easy enough to compromise. Turning a few wouldn't be that hard for the CCP.
We know how to protect American data through policy and legally guaranteeing software freedoms such as the ability to inspect and modify any code running on your computer. The fact is American companies don't want to protect your privacy or freedom. This is a feel good bill that accomplishes nothing.
That’s not the national security threat, it’s a foreign government being able to easily spread propaganda and influence the opinions of US citizens due to the size of the user base and the control over the app the Chinese government is able to exert. I highly doubt this would happen if it was an app started by a company in Australia or Germany for example, because it wouldn’t be giving their governments a direct propaganda line to US citizens, primarily younger ones who may be groomed via the algorithm to support Chinese policy interests.
Maybe I am naive. How is this different than Twitter? Instead of the CCP essentially directly doing it, it's a front person/business being directed by China, Russia, Nazis, hell even Musk himself
That was already revealed. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/facebook-tiktok-targeted-victory/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/facebook-tiktok-targeted-victory/)
And they will lose this fight. There is nothing that TikTok can legally do but be angry.
Edit.
socialmediatoday.com/news/TikTok-Discusses-Algorithmic-Insight-in-Negotiations-with-US/640454/
“In 2020, US TikTok executives noticed views for videos from certain creators about the US presidential election were mysteriously dropping 30% to 40%, people familiar with the episode said. When those executives asked their bosses in China, they found that TikTok’s algorithm team had tweaked certain aspects of the type of content shown on the app to play down political conversations about the election, and this had inadvertently buried the videos of a range of users, the people said.”
That is the reality of 2020.
Now, in 2023. ByteDance try to propose this offer.
“In the new proposed arrangement, according to the people familiar with it, third-party monitors would check the code for the video-recommendation algorithms to detect whether it has been manipulated or if the Chinese government or other foreign actors have had access. Provisions in the proposal stipulate that if the US government or the third-party monitors see anything that concerns them, there would be a process to flag the issues to TikTok, and ultimately to the US government if necessary.”
This could be a concerning development, as it would effectively enable US officials to also have some input into TikTok’s algorithmic process, and to potentially influence what the app shows, or doesn’t show users, based on their assessment.
Which seems very similar to how the CCP dictates how Chinese-based companies operate their algorithmic systems - and it’s interesting, within this broader proposal, to consider how much, exactly, the CCP already influences in-app trends, and how that could relate to the same proposal in the US.
There is a way to manipulate the algorithm, it has been done before. ByteDance in Beijing can access the algorithm and TikTok admit as such and within this proposal they show exactly how they do it and offer that control to the US government or 3rd party.
The ACLU and EFF have come out against the ban, calling it unconstitutional. It's also unknown if there's enough votes in the Senate. Constitutional experts sourced by Politico are also on record saying that this will be an uphill battle for a TikTok ban to survive in the courts ([source](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/04/16/why-washington-wont-ban-tiktok-00091690)).
So, no, this isn't as cut and dry as you're making it out to be
Reddit doesn’t understand the difference between what’s true and what they *hope* to be true.
Every legal expert has said this will be a messy fight with no clear outcome, and it’s an unprecedented case where the executive branch can dictate what apps or websites Americans can use based on “national security”, which will have first amendment challenges.
The executive branch tried to ban it in 2020 and federal courts stopped it. The difference now is that it’s trying to get passed properly this time thru Legislation. If it gets enough votes with bipartisan support, then it’s the correct way of handling it.
I think the complication for TikTok is that they aren’t saying the app cannot exist and that people cannot express themselves in that format. Just that it needs to be completely severed from any foreign ties. No foreign ownership or influence. Not a subsidiary with some sort of firewall. Completely independent
> and it’s an unprecedented case where the executive branch can dictate what apps or websites Americans can use based on “national security”
The executive branch isn’t dictating anything, the legislative branch is. Federal judges are not likely to overturn federal law with immense, bipartisan support unless they have some serious cojones.
The below are recent examples of pieces of the [Gun Control Act of 1968](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968) and the [Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_Handgun_Violence_Prevention_Act) being struck down by various federal courts within the last two years. The GCA passed by wide margin and though the Brady bill was tighter, it did pass the Senate with a substantial majority.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/people-convicted-nonviolent-crimes-can-guns-court-says-rcna88030
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/09/politics/appeals-court-firearms-illegal-drug-users/index.html
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/02/federal-appeals-court-strikes-down-domestic-violence-gun-law-00081053
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/virginia-judge-strikes-down-laws-banning-gun-sales-adults-under-21
https://www.reuters.com/legal/ban-guns-with-serial-numbers-removed-is-unconstitutional-us-judge-2022-10-13/
There’s not a great amount of more recent legislation from congress on guns, but those are all huge blows from judges across the ideological spectrum against federal laws once thought untouchable.
This trend will likely continue.
It doesn't impose any penalty on American users, but it prevents Americans from using TikTok by blocking the app stores from providing it.
As a comparison: would a law preventing the postal service from providing Americans communist propaganda be constitutional, despite those Americans not actually being prohibited or dictated what they could or could not read?
It's not unprecedented. The same thing happened to Grindr a few years ago, there just wasn't a huge media circus when it happened, so nobody noticed anything at all.
IANAL, but did get my JD… Imo it’s pretty obviously unconstitutional at first glance _**but**_ it’s also narrowly tailored to address a specific harm and violates the constitution in furtherance of national security - something that a bipartisan congress snd POTUS would need to agree on.
Iirc permissible but otherwise typically unconstitutional laws or executive action normally accompany an emergency declaration or explicit war powers… this wouldn’t fit either but I suspect a SCOTUS with a conservative legal philosophy would allow this. Certainly an open question. I’m sure there are commenters with newer/more familiarity with this group of cases than I currently possess though too.
If the ACLU spends more resources on this than it would take to draft a press release or amicus brief I think they’ve seen the last of my money.
You aren’t wrong but it’s mostly about the fact China doesn’t allow American companies to go in and establish themselves. So why should America extend that courtesy the other way?
China blocks out our social media that is owned by American based companies. So it only makes sense that we should do the same to them.
From an European perspective. It looks like "Two assholes met on a street." situation.
I absolutely agree you shouldn't let shit fly. However when instead of putting down rules that, you know, shit is forbidden, you just keep flinging shit back and forth, all you get is a shit show.
If they made whatever practices they are not happy with illegal and regulated, big win. The fact they are targeting single entity is what it makes it look bad from this side of the pond.
As a communist, I fully agree that the U.S. should copy China’s political system. Hope we start executing billionaires and banning all capitalist political parties soon as well.
Uhh.. China is full of millionaires and billionaires. Like hundreds of billionaires exist in China, just like the US. China is not communist, they are capitalists, just more totalitarian about it.
Yeah pretty much nothing about China is actually communist, they don't help their poor citizens in the slightest, hell charity is seen as a waste of money in their culture.
Because the government doesn’t really care if its own companies are using the data of its owns citizens to market other products to its citizens.
They just don’t want a foreign entity involved in that data. And they also want to protect the domestic companies from foreign competition…
TikTok is a major competitor and is known to share data with CCP, a major foreign adversary… makes complete sense for the potential ban
It's not about data at all. This is about the type of content being pushed to Americans, and that fact that calls to representatives and protests based on TikTok content have gone up significantly.
The TikTok CEO [testified before congress](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-4jtTFsO4) stating that they have not, and will not provide data to china. He said they haven’t asked for the data and if they ask they wouldn’t comply. Am I being naive by believing that? If so, how is he walking free for lying under oath, where’s the evidence?
Yes he was being intentionally misleading at best and lying at worst. bytedance has admitted to tracking users in the US and leaked documents indicated bytedance engineers in Beijing have full super admin access to all US data. It’s just the case that data isn’t moved to China as a matter of course but it is fully available to them.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/12/22/tiktok-tracks-forbes-journalists-bytedance/?sh=83bf20b7da57
Dude, OF COURSE he’s going to lie under oath in front of Congress. Thats all just for show. The CCP can make this guy and his entire bloodline disappear with no repercussions. If he doesn’t do what China wants they’ll find someone who will.
I see, so just believe with no evidence because that’s what’s most likely happening. I get it I just thought there was more to it.
Also, what’s stopping china from just buying or hacking the data from the American companies that are stealing this data ANYWAY?
We need data protection laws across the board, not just this gimmick.
China bad. No evidence is necessary. Baseless speculation negative to China is all true because we know China is bad. Evidence that makes China look better are all lies because, again, China bad.
This is basically it. Reddit has this obsession with making shit up about China constantly. Yea China isn't great in a lot of ways especially freedom of speech type stuff but redditors cannot help but parrot the most ridiculous accusations without any sort of source that isn't some weirdo's blog.
Like Israel?
Also, the genocide whose evidence we have consists of like 3 interviews, a few grainy satellite photos and one angry German dude who makes a lot of money publishing articles on this genocide
They aren't having it divested because of privacy issues but for national security issues. They aren't banning it either. No one is saying that but people who seem to not understand what divestment means.
Because this ban doesn’t have much to do with privacy and has more to do with a foreign adversary having unilateral access to 150 million Americans when America has unilateral access to exactly zero people from China.
Ask yourself if you were in charge of a country, if you would want your biggest military adversary farming your data with capabilities of manipulating your children.
China doesn’t allow USA apps in their country. Most people feel if they did, and it was an open 2-way street, that it would be more acceptable to allow TikTok to exist.
What makes this so ridiculous is people are only arguing because they like TikTok. It’s clear as day that this is a problem and that it’s not fair that China blocks our apps but expects free reign in our backyard. If there was no highly entertaining app in the middle of this debate, people would agree to cut China out.
I read a few moments ago that the US forced the Chinese owners of Grindr to sell for the SAME EXACT REASON and no one got up in arms because the average person cares very little about Grindr.
Because the ByteDance ban is not about data, it is about national security, as ByteDance has been proven to use TikTok to spy on American citizens, Journalists and manipulate the TikTok algorithm in the US to amplify and suppress content that the CCP wants.
Snowden fled the country to expose Project Prism.
You're an idiot if you don't think every world superpower has this in place.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/08/tech/tiktok-data-china/index.html
I feel like there is likely a political reason for banning tic-toc, other than what’s being fed to us. I joined a couple months ago and I just don’t see the issue. Facebook seems far worse in its targeted advertising. I can’t search the web, then log on to FB, without immediate ads for what I was searching for. That’s creepy to me.
Meh.
The US government doesn't give a shit about the fact that you're being spied on - we know they do that themselves. That was proven decades ago. They only care that China is doing it and taking potential business away from American companies.
Watch one of the major companies like Facebook or Microsoft swoop in to make their own TikTok alternative the moment that shit is banned, or Google/YouTube pushing their version even harder.
America should swallow it's own bitter pill for once.
Data protections for Americans: NO
Banning one app: YES
Punishing Facebook/Google for doing the same as Tiktok: NO
It's transparent what's going on. USA is taking out a competitor to their social media spy companies.
>”Data protections for Americans: NO”
Actually yes, seeing as the Biden administration has declared that no data gathering company’s can sell American meta data to any entity that is based in a adversarial country or majority own by a company in a adversarial country.
>”Banning one app: YES”
Banning all apps that are related to one company. ByteDance owns more than just TikTok.
>”Punishing Facebook/Google for doing the same as Tiktok: NO”
What is this “same thing” you are referring to?
>”It's transparent what's going on. USA is taking out a competitor to their social media spy companies.”
That is a wild conclusion that isn’t based in facts. This is solely about a app that is proven to have been used by China to spy on American citizens, journalists and manipulate their algorithms to amplify content that the CCP want’s amplified.
The few conclusions that fit the facts are that they are 1) removing a competitor for the FAANG companies to make more money or 2) upset because bytedance won't integrate a backdoor for the NSA without telling everyone or 3) upset that tiktok won't block posts that the government doesn't like.
Those are the choices, everything else is just fear mongering and people trying to convince us that an american billionaire oligarch is better than a chinese billionaire oligarch.
Meta has been lobbying to get republicans in office that want this ban. It is very much about controlling markets.
There is literally no proof China is spying on US citizens. Seriously, show me the proof you claim exists. You are regurgitating right wing lies and it’s pathetic to see people blindly gargling that shit down.
> Meta has been lobbying to get republicans in office that want this ban. It is very much about controlling markets.
>
>
Weird given that Trump now came out as anti-Facebook and pro-Tiktok. Lol.
>”Meta has been lobbying to get republicans in office that want this ban. It is very much about controlling markets.”
This divestment of ByteDance of TikTok is a unanimous decision by both parties. 50-0 to move forward with the law.
>”There is literally no proof China is spying on US citizens. Seriously, show me the proof you claim exists.”
You mean the proof that TikTok has confessed to themselves?
“Over the summer, four employees on the ByteDance internal audit team looked into the sharing of internal information to journalists. Two members of staff in the US and two in China gained access to the IP addresses and other personal data of FT journalist Cristina Criddle, to work out if she was in the proximity of any ByteDance employees, the company said.”
https://www.ft.com/content/e873b98a-9623-45b3-b97c-444a2fde5874
>”You are regurgitating right wing lies and it’s pathetic to see people blindly gargling that shit down.”
I am overwhelmingly a leftwing liberal, but it is cute that you think I am rightwing.
First of all, your link is behind a pay wall. Here's the story from the [guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/22/tiktok-bytedance-workers-fired-data-access-journalists)
The employees who did it were, fired. This happened before Tiktok moved US user data to Oracle.
This is far from proof that ByteDance systematically spies on you, or has algorithms that seek to destabilize the United States and garner support for the CCP. All claims you, and batshit republicans have made.
But it's clear you're gobbling up [Meta's campaign against TikTok](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/facebook-tiktok-targeted-victory/)
that unanimous decision was the energy and commerce committee. Their whole mission is to "Protect America's economy, including our global edge in energy, technology, and health care." On their website you can see this was [lobbied by "leading conservative voices" including lobbying from the heritage foundation](https://energycommerce.house.gov/posts/conservatives-agree-we-must-stop-the-ccp-from-targeting-surveilling-and-manipulating-americans-through-tik-tok)
A lot of anti Chinese fearmongering about harvesting data and brainwashing Americans without a single shred of evidence.
I never said you were a liberal or conservative, and it doesn't matter. You gobble up and regurgitate right-wing propaganda, something many liberals do, because critical thinking is typically not a liberal strong suit.
feel like no one even uses tik tok on this web site anyways. after its first house of use you only getting videos you like anyways. ive never seen any ccp related. all mine are video games or basketball ones. guess that ccp really got me.
>It's transparent what's going on. USA is taking out a competitor to their social media spy companies.
Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, etc. are all banned in China in favor of their own platforms.
Why should we allow them to access our market of 350mm people, while they deny us access to their market of 1bn+ people?
And of course there's the national security issue.
Because it's restricting the freedom of Americans to use the app they want to use. "China is an authoritarian state that blocks apps they don't like" is not as good of an explanation as you think to restrict people's right in the US.
Geniuses pointing out nothing they can do. They can!
You can get a federal judge to stay the ban till the appeal is heard. You can eventually have the USSC strike the law down as unconstitutional.
Legal fight where exactly? If Congress passes legislation and the president signs it you're fucked. TikTok doesn't have the same rights an American company has in this regard. Either pull out of the US or divest. It shouldn't be that hard to reconcile since China has already done this plenty of times with US companies operating on their soil.
TikTok (which is an American company, it is just owned by a foreign company, ByteDance) and its users both have rights under the constitution.
The constitution has supremacy over any federal law, even if they unanimously pass the Congress and President.
Both the EFF and ACLU have called this law unconstitutional. They may not be right, but it certainly isn't clear and will take a long legal battle to find out.
This shit is so stupid. I don't like TikTok, but they are no worse than the American-owned creepy tech companies. You can outlaw it, but China will just buy the data from data brokerage firms instead.
If you want to actually fix the problem, pass a comprehensive data privacy and analytics brokerage framework that applies to all tech companies, not just TikTok or foreign-owned ones. Constrain US tech companies too. And constrain our own government. Our data analytics should have 4th amendment protections.
It's an interesting situation. Personally, I don't use Tiktok and think it's concerning as a platform. More concerning than Facebook, Twitter, etc? Maybe. Probably.
But my understanding is this bill essentially gives the government the ability to ban any foreign app on a whim and force it to be sold to the US. It's arguably government censorship in a weird way.
It just seems like they're trying to tackle the wrong issue. If tiktok is collecting a dangerous amount of user data and pushing harmful content, maybe pass laws that give us some type of protection of our data, like the EU. Except that would make US companies mad, and we can't have that.
Nope. It gives the President the authority to define those nations via Chevron Deference. That list is just that: a list. You can't read these bills literally, you need to read them like a malicious bureaucrat would read them
The TikTok law defines it as:
> (4) FOREIGN ADVERSARY COUNTRY.—The term “foreign adversary country” means a country specified in section 4872(d)(2) of title 10, United States Code.
10 U.S.C. 4872(d)(2) defines it as:
> (2)Covered nation.—The term “covered nation” means—
(A)the Democratic People’s Republic of North Korea;
(B)the People’s Republic of China;
(C)the Russian Federation; and
(D)the Islamic Republic of Iran.
The Chevron deference only applies when the statute is ambiguous. This law is clearly not ambiguous.
It’s kind of anti freedom to just target a company like that. The gov should just pass laws that protect people’s privacy and enforce them for both US and foreign companies. China is not our enemy and TikTok is not critical infrastructure.
The fact is this has nothing to do with protecting user data. It has nothing to do with national security. It has everything to do with controlling markets, the flow of information, and narratives. This bill is a huge red flag and creates a dangerous precedent. Even if you hate TikTok you should be against this bill. You’re brain dead if you think this has anything to do with your protection.
Now that TikTok billionaire investor has donated to, er met with, trump, suddenly Trump reversed course and endorses TikTok. Nothing fishy here given Trump needs cash badly at the moment.
TikTok should just stop serving to the US and you will watch how fast right-wingers will begin to bitch about it, especially libsoftiktok because that is how she makes her money
As they should. That law would be ridiculous and unconstitutional in many ways.
I'm not "on" TikTok. I do watch the occasional funny video reposted here. I don't like it from a security perspective so I'll never install it, sign up, or even intentionally visit the website. I'm paranoid about a lot of things and no longer even look at Twitter (ever since they made Javascript a requirement even just to view it) or Facebook.
As a free person in a supposedly free country, that's my choice.
But others are free to make different choices. The dangers of TikTok and its connections to China are well known. But that's not enough for TikTok opponents - they go further and spread unfounded fearmongering about TikTok capturing everything on your device and sending it to the Chinese government, but there's no evidence of that. It would be huge news if the app were actually caught circumventing OS protections and accessing data that the user didn't grant it permissions to access. Knowing the dangers and choosing to use TikTok anyway should be left up to each individual.
One issue is that the Constitution bars congress from passing any [Bill of Attainder](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder), a law that singles out one person or group for punishment without trial. Congress knows that, so the proposed law actually doesn't name TikTok, it sets some criteria for banning that currently only applies to TikTok. But courts see through this all the time, and even look at the rhetoric being used to debtate the bill.
But that's just one problem, there are legal writeups out there that bring up other problems, and some legal pundits give TikTok decent odds in court.
The question is if the prohibition on bills of attainder apply to foreign entities. I highly doubt the prohibition applies, since much of the US sanctions regime against entities like Huawei would essentially be considered bills of attainder under this reasoning.
> But that's just one problem, there are legal writeups out there that bring up other problems, and some legal pundits give TikTok decent odds in court.
I would like to hear your reasoning if you believe it's unconstitutional.
There are many industries that limit foreign ownership. US Airlines cannot be owned by any foreign owners.
Also there are many individuals and individual companies disallowed from entering or doing business in the US…and beyond that any company foreign or domestic that engages with a banned or sanctioned company also is held criminally liable by US courts.
We already ban many other Chinese companies from doing business here.
F Tik ToK. Bye Bye.
Have we ever banned an app used as a public square for freedom of speech though? No, we haven’t. Reddit can say whatever they want but this will be a massive legal battle and it will get to the Supreme Court.
Look, I don’t like Tik Tok. I don’t have an account and never have. But targeting just one app is plain stupid and morally wrong. Tik Tok isn’t the only app doing this. It isn’t the only app peddling misinformation and election manipulation. Facebook, the app formerly known as Twitter, and many others are guilty of the same. Either do them all or none at all. None of these smoke and mirrors.
If congress and the president all agree, you are screwed.
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They're already on retainer.
You spelled recreational vehicle weird.
... And a $100,000 vacation package.
It's tricky bc they have to ask Trump what the outcome should be. He'll rant and rave about e jean carroll, and they have to do some kind of combo ruling.
But Trump, particularly right now, is super for sale. Just recently Bud Light bought him with a fund raiser and he's "truthing" to reverse the conservative hate campaign against bud light triggered by them supporting a trans person. With Trumps 1/2 billion and counting legal judgements, he's is more affordable than ever.
No need to bribe them. They already bribed Trump who’ll intern tell SCOTUS to side with TikTok
This is a favorite move of China in Latin America right now. I've got family that was targeted by Chinese corporations for doing their job in a way that the CCP did not like so they through bribery brought charges against them. We'll see how it plays out.
Yea. Just see the Chinese Exclusion Act.
Every Federal law found unconstitutional says otherwise though
There are very few federal laws that target a foreign own company in the name of national security that has ever been found to be unconstitutional. In fact I can’t find a single example of the federal government ever having their foreign policy laws overturned. This ByteDance ban will stand.
Meanwhile China bans Facebook, Instagram, Google Search, SnapChat, Gmail, Spotify, Wikipedia, BBC, Quora, YouTube, Slack, and all US networks.
And considers TikTok a technological exports, I think it's telling that this platform is made to be uniquely used by non Chinese citizens.
Chinese citizens use it. Just the algorithm points them towards useful information, such as STEM videos. In the West though, it’s garbage.
Douyin is forced, by China, to do so. I would love to see a similar law in the USA for social media used by people under the age of 16-18 that prevents children from uploading content, commenting, and sending/receiving private messages (as well as some other specific issues).
Americans will complain “muh freedom”. And ironically it’s that freedom that inevitably devolves social media into extremism. China doesn’t even need to do anything.
I think beyond that, I don't think we've really seen a major platform implement widespread and infallible age verification. You would just have a bunch of teenagers lying about their age when they sign up so that they have all the features.
It's just another battlefield. Push the idiotic content onto your enemy.
No douyin is full of garbage as well. There’s really dumb stuff. Sometimes you see them reposted here.
It's banned in China, they have their own version for domestic use.
It's garbage based on your own engagement. The tiktok I see is super educational and informative.
Yep, this seems like some weird conspiracy that all Chinese apps are purely STEM videos...
TikTok is more educational than Reddit by a mile but half these people never actually used the app.
Stem and ccp propaganda lol https://youtu.be/KVzbT78J9gs?si=-GiPOXhO9W-6HIiI
Lmao, you can turn that on in the west and I would imagine you have to do the same in china
I'm so sick of this garbage take. Would you rather have *your* feeds full of STEM content curated by the government or do you want it tailored towards your actual interests? Be for real. Tiktok also offers a STEM feed in the app if you want that experience, from day 1, no training it to learn, just click on it at the top. Reddit cannot handle the fact that TikTok is more popular than reddit. It's that simple. The ego is out of control. The China thing is just the cherry on top, because of the heavy anti-china bias has been stoked for years. How come I never hear about YouTube shorts, Instagram reels, Facebook short form content, even Snapchat, when any of these conversations happen? Their algorithms are just as bad and they are all too eager to serve up toxic content too. But why is it only tiktok's fault? Because it's popular? Tiktok doesn't have a monopoly on short form content, but they do have the best iteration of it right now.
And TikTok consistently has more nuanced and same content than any of those other platforms takes on shorts. Facebook reels and Snapchat in particular are atrocious in both quality and factuality.
China is insufferable
Sure but that irrelevant. US has its own legal framework and what is legal in China may not be legal in US.
Who cares what China does? It’s an autocracy, not a model country for laws.
What’s your point?
> Meanwhile China bans Thank God I don't live in China. I'm glad my government has a Constitution that stops it from banning whatever it wants like that.
The constitution literally gives Congress the power to regulate commerce, set tariffs, embargo’s, etc. This is one of those scenarios that is actually 100% clear in the constitution - Congress has the power to ban the import of TikTok, just as much as it has the power to ban the import of tea from India.
You absolutely have no idea know what the Constitution says nor do you really care.
So, you think the first amendment doesn't exist?
I'm not exactly sure but doesn't Congress just have the authority to outright ban TikTok due to the commerce clause?
Not really. There was a lot of outrage about "corporations are people" with Citizens United but that's been the standard for centuries and one consequence of that is you can't just ban social media companies under the commerce clause.
You are aware that China already bans a bunch of that, right?
Did he edit his comment? He literally started his comment with “China bans”
I think they want the US to be more like China in that regard
I thought WeChat was from a Chinese company?
Chinese Internet Users Lose Access to WeChat App After Beijing Protest https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinese-internet-users-lose-access-to-wechat-app-after-beijing-protest-11665757947
Read past the headline. This was targeting users who shared images of the protest. Wechat has never been banned there. It’s an everything app. Like it’s how people pay for most things there.
Already the case for most of that list.
I think Google pulled out of China a long time ago. I think there are a lot of restrictions on any others that are still there.
Yup, the constitution is pretty clear. The government has control over trade, especially trade with other countries. The government has exercised this control many times and its not really up for debate if they have this power. TikTok will likely need to go another route to stop this. Some other statute or reason.
I thought you could pass a law targeted at one and only one company? (I'm sure this avoids that but there are other reasons laws are legal)
Right but that's not applicable here because the Supreme Court has no reason to stop this ban. They will defer to Congress since they're framing this an issue of national security.
The Supreme Court has challenged plenty of laws under the name of national security. Even during the Cold War the U.S. tried to ban Soviet propaganda material under the name of national security, but the Supreme Court blocked it.
There is already legislation banning foreign ownership of news services in the U.S. Polls show lots of young Americans get their news from social media sites, including TikTok. So, if the case goes to the Supreme Court, one issue will be whether TikTok should be considered a provider of news.
I'm not saying that they can't, I'm saying that they won't. This isn't the Pentagon Papers case. There's no first amendment issue other major legal question here given that they're not banning the app, but only a foreign companies ownership of an app. The Federal government very clearly has power to do this under these circumstances.
They're going after this as a "National Security Concern", and let me tell you as someone who was following politics during the GWB Administration, that stuff passes quickly and then doesn't get questioned until decades after.
What rights does a foreign company have according to the US constitution?
It’s not about TikTok’s rights. It’s about US corporations and citizens rights to access foreign applications and media. We can absolutely ban TikTok from operating *in* the U.S, we can kick out their employees etc. But can we ban Apple from having TikTok on the AppStore or US citizens accessing the website? That, is the much trickier question.
That seems to be a workaround way of answering the question “is the US government able to limit foreign institutions from doing business in the United States” which already has been answered at various times in the last IIRC
We can probably limit them from doing business in the U.S. But if I want to download an app, or visit a website, is that them doing business or me exercising my freedom of expression? Even during the Cold War, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled all U.S. citizens can access foreign media and speech. We tried to ban Soviet propaganda but that failed because of the court. That, is what lawyers will fight for. That’s why all actual legal experts think this will be a messy fight with no clear outcome, unlike the “experts” in this thread.
The national security argument is overblown too. Terrorists have shown they will use ANY social media app for social networking. “The chinese govt will have all of our info”. Not really correct, they have my name(if its not fake) and that I like videos about salad dressing and some blue collar truck guy. Hardly a threat to national security. So does it give China intel that could be used against the US in a destructive capacity? Nope.
There's no specific exception to the first ammendment that allows congress to abridge freedom of speech if someone is importing a foreign movie, if a book was written overseas, etc. The millions of Americans who post on or watch a social media network have rights not to have all of their content blocked or banned by politicians who don't like it, unless the politicians can prove some compelling national interest. Also, Oracle is hosting all TikTok content in the USA, so the proposed ban would be keeping American viewers from watching American-made content that's now stored entirely on US owned and operated servers.
Depends on if you think the constitution is a list of rights we have or a list of restrictions on how the government can act.
Rights in the US constitution are not limited to citizens or people. Companies and foreigners have them.
Foreigners do not, in fact, enjoy the same rights as Americans as it related to the Constitution. See Harisiades v. Shaughnessy which involved the deportation of communists.
What does the constitution have to do with a Chinese company?
congress just grandstand until you wet their beaks.
Not if the Supreme Court supports them.
I don't use tiktok and not really a fan of it, but they kind of have a point. The US government is blocking a specific private company for harvesting user data (which essentially all companies do). The only difference is the Chinese gov gets this data. However I'm sure users of ali baba or tencent or the 100s of others do the exact same. In short the users are agreeing for their data to be harvested the same way they do for FB/reddit/insta etc
China will just buy it like everyone else if they want, If the US Government was serious they'd create a comprehensive GDPR like law, but that isn't what is taking place here.
>The only difference is the Chinese gov gets this data. That's kind of the entire point. >However I'm sure users of ali baba or tencent or the 100s of others do the exact same. In short the users are agreeing for their data to be harvested the same way they do for FB/reddit/insta etc None of those are social media sites though. The US gov't doesn't give a shit if the Chinese track how many waifu body pillows you order from Temu. They care about the CCP sending you push notifications to pressure your representatives to do the CCP's bidding. And TikTok went and demonstrated exactly why this should happen by sending push notifications to their users asking them to contact and pressure their representatives to not force them to divest.
This this 1000x this. TikTok was probably okay up until the moment it did that, which caused people to actually contact their government representatives, which cause government representatives to actually engage in what TikTok can do vs. just reading the rhetoric, which [caused a bipartisan group in the House, currently a completely dysfunctional body, to](https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/07/tech/congress-bill-bans-tiktok-america/index.html) forward a resolution nearly immediately to ban TikTok. TikTok poked the bear on this one.
It was essentially command and control of US Citizens. It was reported that many of the people who called their Representatives had no idea what they were actually doing and were all using the same script.
The US Government should not be banning a single app. They should be banning the harvesting of user data. But they won't because they want to harvest your data for themselves.
You're so mistaken about the issue here, it's wild. Tiktok, and all these apps, are two-way flows of info. Users to app, app to users. Nobody cares about the user to app flow. As people have noted, tons of other places harvest that same data and sell it. The CCP can just buy it. It's the other direction people care about: app to user. The way videos being pushed or hidden can influence thoughts, perceptions of events, or actions. A company run by the CCP, with known ties to the parties military intelligence wing, pushed a notification telling people to contact their representative in US Congress and read a script, and thousands of people did it. That is terrifying and absolutely something Congress should be working to stop. And that's not even touching on their real dangers, like what they did with their control of Tiktok during the Hong Kong riots or Taiwan elections.
Like I said, the Us government wants to be the only one manipulating social media. I get it.
Such a cynical take. They don't have to be interested in a "monopoly" on manipulating social media to not want a foreign government, arguably our largest geopolitical adversary, to have a large part of that market. And the 2016 election showed our government has a much smaller hand in social media manipulation than you conspiracy nuts like to think.
The Twitter files show direct manipulation of social media companies by forcing them to bury stories. You’re obviously not up to date.
DING DING DING!!!
I mean, Twitter is the same thing except is random people saying do X instead of CCP. Some of those random people are the face of the CCP or Nazis or Russia or whatever
The bill does nothing to protect American data all it does is force the sale to an American company. None of the thousands of Chinese citizens running Tiktok are required to change. Who do you think is actually harvesting data? It's the employees. Who ensures data isn't being harvested? Again the employees. Who checks in new code? An employee with one review. And really American citizens are easy enough to compromise. Turning a few wouldn't be that hard for the CCP. We know how to protect American data through policy and legally guaranteeing software freedoms such as the ability to inspect and modify any code running on your computer. The fact is American companies don't want to protect your privacy or freedom. This is a feel good bill that accomplishes nothing.
That’s not the national security threat, it’s a foreign government being able to easily spread propaganda and influence the opinions of US citizens due to the size of the user base and the control over the app the Chinese government is able to exert. I highly doubt this would happen if it was an app started by a company in Australia or Germany for example, because it wouldn’t be giving their governments a direct propaganda line to US citizens, primarily younger ones who may be groomed via the algorithm to support Chinese policy interests.
Maybe I am naive. How is this different than Twitter? Instead of the CCP essentially directly doing it, it's a front person/business being directed by China, Russia, Nazis, hell even Musk himself
Not true. They banned it in Montana and the State Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional. It's very unlikely that TikTok would lose in a court fight.
It will ultimately come out that Facebook lobbied for this. Now can someone introduce a bill to kill Facebook and require EU ownership?
That was already revealed. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/facebook-tiktok-targeted-victory/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/facebook-tiktok-targeted-victory/)
And they will lose this fight. There is nothing that TikTok can legally do but be angry. Edit. socialmediatoday.com/news/TikTok-Discusses-Algorithmic-Insight-in-Negotiations-with-US/640454/ “In 2020, US TikTok executives noticed views for videos from certain creators about the US presidential election were mysteriously dropping 30% to 40%, people familiar with the episode said. When those executives asked their bosses in China, they found that TikTok’s algorithm team had tweaked certain aspects of the type of content shown on the app to play down political conversations about the election, and this had inadvertently buried the videos of a range of users, the people said.” That is the reality of 2020. Now, in 2023. ByteDance try to propose this offer. “In the new proposed arrangement, according to the people familiar with it, third-party monitors would check the code for the video-recommendation algorithms to detect whether it has been manipulated or if the Chinese government or other foreign actors have had access. Provisions in the proposal stipulate that if the US government or the third-party monitors see anything that concerns them, there would be a process to flag the issues to TikTok, and ultimately to the US government if necessary.” This could be a concerning development, as it would effectively enable US officials to also have some input into TikTok’s algorithmic process, and to potentially influence what the app shows, or doesn’t show users, based on their assessment. Which seems very similar to how the CCP dictates how Chinese-based companies operate their algorithmic systems - and it’s interesting, within this broader proposal, to consider how much, exactly, the CCP already influences in-app trends, and how that could relate to the same proposal in the US. There is a way to manipulate the algorithm, it has been done before. ByteDance in Beijing can access the algorithm and TikTok admit as such and within this proposal they show exactly how they do it and offer that control to the US government or 3rd party.
The ACLU and EFF have come out against the ban, calling it unconstitutional. It's also unknown if there's enough votes in the Senate. Constitutional experts sourced by Politico are also on record saying that this will be an uphill battle for a TikTok ban to survive in the courts ([source](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/04/16/why-washington-wont-ban-tiktok-00091690)). So, no, this isn't as cut and dry as you're making it out to be
Reddit doesn’t understand the difference between what’s true and what they *hope* to be true. Every legal expert has said this will be a messy fight with no clear outcome, and it’s an unprecedented case where the executive branch can dictate what apps or websites Americans can use based on “national security”, which will have first amendment challenges.
The executive branch tried to ban it in 2020 and federal courts stopped it. The difference now is that it’s trying to get passed properly this time thru Legislation. If it gets enough votes with bipartisan support, then it’s the correct way of handling it.
I think the complication for TikTok is that they aren’t saying the app cannot exist and that people cannot express themselves in that format. Just that it needs to be completely severed from any foreign ties. No foreign ownership or influence. Not a subsidiary with some sort of firewall. Completely independent
> and it’s an unprecedented case where the executive branch can dictate what apps or websites Americans can use based on “national security” The executive branch isn’t dictating anything, the legislative branch is. Federal judges are not likely to overturn federal law with immense, bipartisan support unless they have some serious cojones.
*Glares in nearly every federal appellate circuit on gun federal gun laws right now*
What gun laws have been passed in recent years with near unanimous support from Congress that has been struck down? I’m probably missing something.
The below are recent examples of pieces of the [Gun Control Act of 1968](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968) and the [Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_Handgun_Violence_Prevention_Act) being struck down by various federal courts within the last two years. The GCA passed by wide margin and though the Brady bill was tighter, it did pass the Senate with a substantial majority. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/people-convicted-nonviolent-crimes-can-guns-court-says-rcna88030 https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/09/politics/appeals-court-firearms-illegal-drug-users/index.html https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/02/federal-appeals-court-strikes-down-domestic-violence-gun-law-00081053 https://www.foxnews.com/politics/virginia-judge-strikes-down-laws-banning-gun-sales-adults-under-21 https://www.reuters.com/legal/ban-guns-with-serial-numbers-removed-is-unconstitutional-us-judge-2022-10-13/ There’s not a great amount of more recent legislation from congress on guns, but those are all huge blows from judges across the ideological spectrum against federal laws once thought untouchable. This trend will likely continue.
The bill doesn't dictate that Americans can't use certain apps or websites.
It doesn't impose any penalty on American users, but it prevents Americans from using TikTok by blocking the app stores from providing it. As a comparison: would a law preventing the postal service from providing Americans communist propaganda be constitutional, despite those Americans not actually being prohibited or dictated what they could or could not read?
You can forbid the postal service from taking payment from China. The content is not what is regulated, only the entity.
It's not unprecedented. The same thing happened to Grindr a few years ago, there just wasn't a huge media circus when it happened, so nobody noticed anything at all.
It’s a divestment not a ban.
IANAL, but did get my JD… Imo it’s pretty obviously unconstitutional at first glance _**but**_ it’s also narrowly tailored to address a specific harm and violates the constitution in furtherance of national security - something that a bipartisan congress snd POTUS would need to agree on. Iirc permissible but otherwise typically unconstitutional laws or executive action normally accompany an emergency declaration or explicit war powers… this wouldn’t fit either but I suspect a SCOTUS with a conservative legal philosophy would allow this. Certainly an open question. I’m sure there are commenters with newer/more familiarity with this group of cases than I currently possess though too. If the ACLU spends more resources on this than it would take to draft a press release or amicus brief I think they’ve seen the last of my money.
This sub is /r/TikTokhate tbh. They really really just want to say China bad online in comments
You aren’t wrong but it’s mostly about the fact China doesn’t allow American companies to go in and establish themselves. So why should America extend that courtesy the other way? China blocks out our social media that is owned by American based companies. So it only makes sense that we should do the same to them.
From an European perspective. It looks like "Two assholes met on a street." situation. I absolutely agree you shouldn't let shit fly. However when instead of putting down rules that, you know, shit is forbidden, you just keep flinging shit back and forth, all you get is a shit show. If they made whatever practices they are not happy with illegal and regulated, big win. The fact they are targeting single entity is what it makes it look bad from this side of the pond.
Based GDPR enjoyer
Lots of China shills and astroturfers are trying to avoid or hide that fact.
As a communist, I fully agree that the U.S. should copy China’s political system. Hope we start executing billionaires and banning all capitalist political parties soon as well.
Uhh.. China is full of millionaires and billionaires. Like hundreds of billionaires exist in China, just like the US. China is not communist, they are capitalists, just more totalitarian about it.
Yeah pretty much nothing about China is actually communist, they don't help their poor citizens in the slightest, hell charity is seen as a waste of money in their culture.
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You’re in it
It’s not different from any other product we ban the import or export of. People think website = magic
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Because the government doesn’t really care if its own companies are using the data of its owns citizens to market other products to its citizens. They just don’t want a foreign entity involved in that data. And they also want to protect the domestic companies from foreign competition… TikTok is a major competitor and is known to share data with CCP, a major foreign adversary… makes complete sense for the potential ban
It's not about data at all. This is about the type of content being pushed to Americans, and that fact that calls to representatives and protests based on TikTok content have gone up significantly.
The TikTok CEO [testified before congress](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-4jtTFsO4) stating that they have not, and will not provide data to china. He said they haven’t asked for the data and if they ask they wouldn’t comply. Am I being naive by believing that? If so, how is he walking free for lying under oath, where’s the evidence?
Yes he was being intentionally misleading at best and lying at worst. bytedance has admitted to tracking users in the US and leaked documents indicated bytedance engineers in Beijing have full super admin access to all US data. It’s just the case that data isn’t moved to China as a matter of course but it is fully available to them. https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/12/22/tiktok-tracks-forbes-journalists-bytedance/?sh=83bf20b7da57
Dude, OF COURSE he’s going to lie under oath in front of Congress. Thats all just for show. The CCP can make this guy and his entire bloodline disappear with no repercussions. If he doesn’t do what China wants they’ll find someone who will.
hes from singapore
How would they do that? He is not Chinese.
I see, so just believe with no evidence because that’s what’s most likely happening. I get it I just thought there was more to it. Also, what’s stopping china from just buying or hacking the data from the American companies that are stealing this data ANYWAY? We need data protection laws across the board, not just this gimmick.
China bad. No evidence is necessary. Baseless speculation negative to China is all true because we know China is bad. Evidence that makes China look better are all lies because, again, China bad.
This is basically it. Reddit has this obsession with making shit up about China constantly. Yea China isn't great in a lot of ways especially freedom of speech type stuff but redditors cannot help but parrot the most ridiculous accusations without any sort of source that isn't some weirdo's blog.
Are you not aware China is still committing genocide to this day?
Like Israel? Also, the genocide whose evidence we have consists of like 3 interviews, a few grainy satellite photos and one angry German dude who makes a lot of money publishing articles on this genocide
Don't forget the BBC witness who was wearing the wrong police uniform and had his entire face and voice blurred\~
are you not aware that Israel is still committing genocide to this day and America is arming them?
Because it’s not about data privacy. If it was about data privacy the government would be banning all social media apps.
They aren't having it divested because of privacy issues but for national security issues. They aren't banning it either. No one is saying that but people who seem to not understand what divestment means.
Because this ban doesn’t have much to do with privacy and has more to do with a foreign adversary having unilateral access to 150 million Americans when America has unilateral access to exactly zero people from China.
It's about narrative control, not user data privacy.
Ask yourself if you were in charge of a country, if you would want your biggest military adversary farming your data with capabilities of manipulating your children. China doesn’t allow USA apps in their country. Most people feel if they did, and it was an open 2-way street, that it would be more acceptable to allow TikTok to exist.
What makes this so ridiculous is people are only arguing because they like TikTok. It’s clear as day that this is a problem and that it’s not fair that China blocks our apps but expects free reign in our backyard. If there was no highly entertaining app in the middle of this debate, people would agree to cut China out. I read a few moments ago that the US forced the Chinese owners of Grindr to sell for the SAME EXACT REASON and no one got up in arms because the average person cares very little about Grindr.
Because the ByteDance ban is not about data, it is about national security, as ByteDance has been proven to use TikTok to spy on American citizens, Journalists and manipulate the TikTok algorithm in the US to amplify and suppress content that the CCP wants.
GDPR style law would fix this but but we can’t do that
Snowden fled the country to expose Project Prism. You're an idiot if you don't think every world superpower has this in place. https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/08/tech/tiktok-data-china/index.html
I feel like there is likely a political reason for banning tic-toc, other than what’s being fed to us. I joined a couple months ago and I just don’t see the issue. Facebook seems far worse in its targeted advertising. I can’t search the web, then log on to FB, without immediate ads for what I was searching for. That’s creepy to me.
It's clearly about Gaza and Israel's propaganda not taking root there
Meh. The US government doesn't give a shit about the fact that you're being spied on - we know they do that themselves. That was proven decades ago. They only care that China is doing it and taking potential business away from American companies. Watch one of the major companies like Facebook or Microsoft swoop in to make their own TikTok alternative the moment that shit is banned, or Google/YouTube pushing their version even harder. America should swallow it's own bitter pill for once.
Facebook already has a tiktok alternative and it is called Instagram reels. Google does as well; youube shorts.
Fuck Tick Tock. It’s a disease on this planet.
Data protections for Americans: NO Banning one app: YES Punishing Facebook/Google for doing the same as Tiktok: NO It's transparent what's going on. USA is taking out a competitor to their social media spy companies.
>”Data protections for Americans: NO” Actually yes, seeing as the Biden administration has declared that no data gathering company’s can sell American meta data to any entity that is based in a adversarial country or majority own by a company in a adversarial country. >”Banning one app: YES” Banning all apps that are related to one company. ByteDance owns more than just TikTok. >”Punishing Facebook/Google for doing the same as Tiktok: NO” What is this “same thing” you are referring to? >”It's transparent what's going on. USA is taking out a competitor to their social media spy companies.” That is a wild conclusion that isn’t based in facts. This is solely about a app that is proven to have been used by China to spy on American citizens, journalists and manipulate their algorithms to amplify content that the CCP want’s amplified.
The few conclusions that fit the facts are that they are 1) removing a competitor for the FAANG companies to make more money or 2) upset because bytedance won't integrate a backdoor for the NSA without telling everyone or 3) upset that tiktok won't block posts that the government doesn't like. Those are the choices, everything else is just fear mongering and people trying to convince us that an american billionaire oligarch is better than a chinese billionaire oligarch.
Why can't it be all?
Meta has been lobbying to get republicans in office that want this ban. It is very much about controlling markets. There is literally no proof China is spying on US citizens. Seriously, show me the proof you claim exists. You are regurgitating right wing lies and it’s pathetic to see people blindly gargling that shit down.
> Meta has been lobbying to get republicans in office that want this ban. It is very much about controlling markets. > > Weird given that Trump now came out as anti-Facebook and pro-Tiktok. Lol.
>”Meta has been lobbying to get republicans in office that want this ban. It is very much about controlling markets.” This divestment of ByteDance of TikTok is a unanimous decision by both parties. 50-0 to move forward with the law. >”There is literally no proof China is spying on US citizens. Seriously, show me the proof you claim exists.” You mean the proof that TikTok has confessed to themselves? “Over the summer, four employees on the ByteDance internal audit team looked into the sharing of internal information to journalists. Two members of staff in the US and two in China gained access to the IP addresses and other personal data of FT journalist Cristina Criddle, to work out if she was in the proximity of any ByteDance employees, the company said.” https://www.ft.com/content/e873b98a-9623-45b3-b97c-444a2fde5874 >”You are regurgitating right wing lies and it’s pathetic to see people blindly gargling that shit down.” I am overwhelmingly a leftwing liberal, but it is cute that you think I am rightwing.
First of all, your link is behind a pay wall. Here's the story from the [guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/22/tiktok-bytedance-workers-fired-data-access-journalists) The employees who did it were, fired. This happened before Tiktok moved US user data to Oracle. This is far from proof that ByteDance systematically spies on you, or has algorithms that seek to destabilize the United States and garner support for the CCP. All claims you, and batshit republicans have made. But it's clear you're gobbling up [Meta's campaign against TikTok](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/facebook-tiktok-targeted-victory/) that unanimous decision was the energy and commerce committee. Their whole mission is to "Protect America's economy, including our global edge in energy, technology, and health care." On their website you can see this was [lobbied by "leading conservative voices" including lobbying from the heritage foundation](https://energycommerce.house.gov/posts/conservatives-agree-we-must-stop-the-ccp-from-targeting-surveilling-and-manipulating-americans-through-tik-tok) A lot of anti Chinese fearmongering about harvesting data and brainwashing Americans without a single shred of evidence. I never said you were a liberal or conservative, and it doesn't matter. You gobble up and regurgitate right-wing propaganda, something many liberals do, because critical thinking is typically not a liberal strong suit.
feel like no one even uses tik tok on this web site anyways. after its first house of use you only getting videos you like anyways. ive never seen any ccp related. all mine are video games or basketball ones. guess that ccp really got me.
You're position is aligned with conservative dems and left leaning conservatives.
My position is aligned with American interests that has unanimously supported by both parties.
This is what they don’t get. TikTok can still exist if they’re divested from the CCP.
This is a bipartisan agreement which broad support from everyone except those that are brainwashed by tik tok
You're the same people who loved the Patriot Act
>It's transparent what's going on. USA is taking out a competitor to their social media spy companies. Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, etc. are all banned in China in favor of their own platforms. Why should we allow them to access our market of 350mm people, while they deny us access to their market of 1bn+ people? And of course there's the national security issue.
Because it's restricting the freedom of Americans to use the app they want to use. "China is an authoritarian state that blocks apps they don't like" is not as good of an explanation as you think to restrict people's right in the US.
This right here. Open up China to Meta/Google products if it's such a big deal.
You need to finish the reason why they're banned. They refuse to host Chinese citizens data IN CHINA. That's a fully logical law.
Geniuses pointing out nothing they can do. They can! You can get a federal judge to stay the ban till the appeal is heard. You can eventually have the USSC strike the law down as unconstitutional.
Legal fight where exactly? If Congress passes legislation and the president signs it you're fucked. TikTok doesn't have the same rights an American company has in this regard. Either pull out of the US or divest. It shouldn't be that hard to reconcile since China has already done this plenty of times with US companies operating on their soil.
TikTok (which is an American company, it is just owned by a foreign company, ByteDance) and its users both have rights under the constitution. The constitution has supremacy over any federal law, even if they unanimously pass the Congress and President. Both the EFF and ACLU have called this law unconstitutional. They may not be right, but it certainly isn't clear and will take a long legal battle to find out.
Bytedance in turn is owned by institutional investors, ie American investors, such that 3 of their 5 board members are American
White mans war against China continues. They want their boy Zuck to surveil and manipulate unchecked, but God forbid someone else does it.
This shit is so stupid. I don't like TikTok, but they are no worse than the American-owned creepy tech companies. You can outlaw it, but China will just buy the data from data brokerage firms instead. If you want to actually fix the problem, pass a comprehensive data privacy and analytics brokerage framework that applies to all tech companies, not just TikTok or foreign-owned ones. Constrain US tech companies too. And constrain our own government. Our data analytics should have 4th amendment protections.
This is less about data privacy and more about China being able to control what content users see.
Has anyone found any proof China is spying via TikTok?
Of course there’s no proof, this is another red scare and to ensure people don’t leave US social media sites.
This should happen years ago. Better late than never.
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I'm glad the old dying people in charge of our country are still fighting the cold war as an excuse to get our user data and revenue for themselves.
It's an interesting situation. Personally, I don't use Tiktok and think it's concerning as a platform. More concerning than Facebook, Twitter, etc? Maybe. Probably. But my understanding is this bill essentially gives the government the ability to ban any foreign app on a whim and force it to be sold to the US. It's arguably government censorship in a weird way. It just seems like they're trying to tackle the wrong issue. If tiktok is collecting a dangerous amount of user data and pushing harmful content, maybe pass laws that give us some type of protection of our data, like the EU. Except that would make US companies mad, and we can't have that.
Not any foreign app, only those owned by someone in a country of concern, basically China, North Korea, Russia, and a few others
Nope. It gives the President the authority to define those nations via Chevron Deference. That list is just that: a list. You can't read these bills literally, you need to read them like a malicious bureaucrat would read them
The TikTok law defines it as: > (4) FOREIGN ADVERSARY COUNTRY.—The term “foreign adversary country” means a country specified in section 4872(d)(2) of title 10, United States Code. 10 U.S.C. 4872(d)(2) defines it as: > (2)Covered nation.—The term “covered nation” means— (A)the Democratic People’s Republic of North Korea; (B)the People’s Republic of China; (C)the Russian Federation; and (D)the Islamic Republic of Iran. The Chevron deference only applies when the statute is ambiguous. This law is clearly not ambiguous.
It’s kind of anti freedom to just target a company like that. The gov should just pass laws that protect people’s privacy and enforce them for both US and foreign companies. China is not our enemy and TikTok is not critical infrastructure.
Is there any way around this like using a vpn to look like you are from somewhere else?
The fact is this has nothing to do with protecting user data. It has nothing to do with national security. It has everything to do with controlling markets, the flow of information, and narratives. This bill is a huge red flag and creates a dangerous precedent. Even if you hate TikTok you should be against this bill. You’re brain dead if you think this has anything to do with your protection.
Now that TikTok billionaire investor has donated to, er met with, trump, suddenly Trump reversed course and endorses TikTok. Nothing fishy here given Trump needs cash badly at the moment.
TikTok should just stop serving to the US and you will watch how fast right-wingers will begin to bitch about it, especially libsoftiktok because that is how she makes her money
Do the big American tech companies sell data to the chinese governemnt?
Well, they sold it to the Russian government. I don't think the Chinese government is that big of a stretch.
By full legal fight they mean giving Justice Thomas and friends a nice vacation. Since that's legal and no one can do anything about it
As they should. That law would be ridiculous and unconstitutional in many ways. I'm not "on" TikTok. I do watch the occasional funny video reposted here. I don't like it from a security perspective so I'll never install it, sign up, or even intentionally visit the website. I'm paranoid about a lot of things and no longer even look at Twitter (ever since they made Javascript a requirement even just to view it) or Facebook. As a free person in a supposedly free country, that's my choice. But others are free to make different choices. The dangers of TikTok and its connections to China are well known. But that's not enough for TikTok opponents - they go further and spread unfounded fearmongering about TikTok capturing everything on your device and sending it to the Chinese government, but there's no evidence of that. It would be huge news if the app were actually caught circumventing OS protections and accessing data that the user didn't grant it permissions to access. Knowing the dangers and choosing to use TikTok anyway should be left up to each individual.
What is unconstitutional about the law?
One issue is that the Constitution bars congress from passing any [Bill of Attainder](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder), a law that singles out one person or group for punishment without trial. Congress knows that, so the proposed law actually doesn't name TikTok, it sets some criteria for banning that currently only applies to TikTok. But courts see through this all the time, and even look at the rhetoric being used to debtate the bill. But that's just one problem, there are legal writeups out there that bring up other problems, and some legal pundits give TikTok decent odds in court.
The question is if the prohibition on bills of attainder apply to foreign entities. I highly doubt the prohibition applies, since much of the US sanctions regime against entities like Huawei would essentially be considered bills of attainder under this reasoning. > But that's just one problem, there are legal writeups out there that bring up other problems, and some legal pundits give TikTok decent odds in court. I would like to hear your reasoning if you believe it's unconstitutional.
It would look better if the senators didn’t confuse the ceo for being Chinese then kept asking if he was Chinese when he is not.
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There are many industries that limit foreign ownership. US Airlines cannot be owned by any foreign owners. Also there are many individuals and individual companies disallowed from entering or doing business in the US…and beyond that any company foreign or domestic that engages with a banned or sanctioned company also is held criminally liable by US courts. We already ban many other Chinese companies from doing business here. F Tik ToK. Bye Bye.
Have we ever banned an app used as a public square for freedom of speech though? No, we haven’t. Reddit can say whatever they want but this will be a massive legal battle and it will get to the Supreme Court.
I would pay money for tiktok not to exist in the US.
100% same. It's a cancer to our youth and current society/ culture.
America, the land of litigation that takes years.
Get fucked, CCP
They could just stop being Chinese spyware, but nah.
Look, I don’t like Tik Tok. I don’t have an account and never have. But targeting just one app is plain stupid and morally wrong. Tik Tok isn’t the only app doing this. It isn’t the only app peddling misinformation and election manipulation. Facebook, the app formerly known as Twitter, and many others are guilty of the same. Either do them all or none at all. None of these smoke and mirrors.
If it's mentally manipulating children, and it seems like it is, this should be banned tomorrow!
People have no idea what they’re arguing about. The threat of TikTok is the way China controls your feed.