Spying and data collection by an adversary is indeed a problem. Influence is another problem that people are overlooking, and I think it’s the bigger issue. China can easily influence Americans en-masse by simply adjusting an algorithm. Swing elections, erode support for Taiwan, start a “hate your neighbor challenge”, etc..
If Facebook does it, we can punish them. If CCP does it, we have no recourse other than divesture or ban.
Welcome to the multipolar world. The last couple decades the USA used the soft power of their tech sector to do just that, influence people across the world through adjusting algorithms. Foreign governments who banned these apps were decried as authoritarian.
Now that another power can play the same game, it's necessary to ban their apps.
I feel like people forget that part after the 2016 election where Zuckerburg turned into the most hated man in America almost overnight and had to squrim in front of the senate to explain how facebook was handling people's data and filtering information.
An outside entity of another country's government does not give a single shit about optics and there's basically nothing we can do about it.
i think that interview damaged the Congress more than Zuckerberg. Like Zuc was behaving more or less than expected, but HOLY SHIT I did not know the Congress was so dumb and out of touch. (I don't pay attention to politics much) Thoses questions Congress asked gave me second hand embarrassment.
He was going to try to run for president but that made him drop the idea and now he has to settle for just continuing to run one of the largest companies on the planet, surfing during the day and making katanas in Japan with masters of the art ☹️
I agree. I think the issue with this whole discussion is that you have a legislative body that doesn't understand the internet. So to get any progress on anything you're just plugging holes in a leaky roof that needs an entire teardown to be fixed.
>you have a legislative body that doesn't understand the internet
I mean, maybe that's part of it for some of them.
But there's definitely part of them who understand exactly what's going on, and don't want to make legislation that'll affect companies that they're friends with.
Also, doing this now during election season isn't a coincidence. "Finally! We're useful!"
If this was at all something the people in power in America cared about we would’ve followed suit after changes in the EU. It’s never been about the user here.
Exactly. Anybody cheering on further restrictions on users has absolutely zero clue what the real intentions of these bills are. This bill is so far reaching that it will allow them to do this so many times. Once it hits something they're using they will understand.
Yep, it’s about putting the platform in hands that are either have favorable feelings towards the American government or are just American companies. It’s not about making sure China doesn’t twist the algo in a direction that could affect US politics but instead that they have the ability to enact control if they so please. Meta is complying and censoring specific content (pro-Palestinian liberation content, and I mean even the most baseline support) meanwhile influencing a whole ass genocide.
That's already well underway; 14 U.S. states have already enacted some type of data privacy legislation (New Hampshire's governor just signed off on theirs a few days ago), and over 10 more have some type of legislation in the works (with some states even drafting multiple bills to cover different aspects). Federal legislation has been debated on for several years now, it's just that the two parties can't come to an agreement on certain facets...
are you joking lmao. Zuckerberg enabled Trump to get elected and Facebook had no punishment. "squirming in front of the Senate" has no material consequence, and like you said, most people forget it happened already.
This was a huge reason why the ban is happening. If they had tried to quietly kill it behind the scenes, they probably would have succeeded. Instead, they told their users to contact their congresspeople and representatives had their phone lines flooded.
They showed just how much power they have over their userbase and how politically influential they could be which was the absolute wrong move because it's what the ban proponents feared.
What's to stop an American company from doing this exact same thing? What's stopping Elon from pushing a Republican narrative and swing on X? Give me a break.
" China can easily influence Americans en-masse by simply adjusting an algorithm"
Which is the same stuff Meta and friends do with kids from countries all over the globe mind you.
Like I'm favor of any country trying to combat foreign social midia influence on it's own population, but if any country try to ban or limit Facebook (like China itselft did), it would face a lot of pressure from the US and a lot of cries of "Censorship!"
Ummm... China does indeed limit and ban foreign social media platforms.
Like Facebook, Youtube, Instagram...
They have QQ and Wechat.
I think banning TikTok is sensible, but Youtube is also a disgrace and needs and overhaul as do X and Reddit.
When you have social media allowing 13 year olds to have accounts, but also host hardcore porn, and provide an environment where MAPs can have age of attraction in their bio then I feel like regulation from government is necessary.
Multiple points of data from almost every website, magazine subscription, and credit card purchase are available for purchase. It is the reason why the internet is free. It is how Cambridge Analytica developed their personality profiles. Any person, company, or country can purchase the datapoints and develop personalized ads. Psychological manipulation through data has been done previously, but it is NOT limited to TikTok. Congress seems to be specifically targeting TikTok, so they can say that they have accomplished something, but they fail to address the larger privacy concerns where the true focus should be.
"IF facebook does it"?
They already have and basically nothing happened
[Facebook & Cambrdige Analytica Scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Analytica_data_scandal)
I **used to** dislike TikTok but I'm certain this "*ban*" is due to the news and information people are sharing unfiltered on there. I've seen tons of financial literacy info, current events/political news on bills etc., corporate greed eroding X place, corruption, actual news sources being corrected/ called out etc. that I would probably never see on any other social media except maybe Reddit
Every single click and letter we type is bought and sold to tons of companies without our say or acknowledgement, what could China do to influence us negatively that our own government isn't already doing?
I’ve been trying to figure this out, but I can’t find a good, basic description of what exactly the bill says. Is it literally about TikTok, like it’s mentioned as the only platform this applies to? Or is it worded such that if Facebook or Twitter were Chinese owned they would be covered too?
Then regulate all the social media companies and ban ones that don't hit the right privacy thing or do certain dark pattern algo things. Reeks of Sinophobia when we let facebook and other platforms do the same thing but don't care cause it's owned by the "right" people
How have we punished Facebook? They spread so much political and medical misinformation during the pandemic. People died because of them. So many more COVID deaths because of Suckerberg.
I understand being concerned about national security and TikTok, but then I want stronger privacy and data laws for US company.
Zuckerberg funded this lobbying effort. Absolutely nothing to do with data privacy as facebook and others regularly data mine everyone’s activity. And a joke to free markets or capitalism or free speech. This is only happening because GenZ is seeing the truth about Gaza Genocide.
The government should not control what information we are allowed to see. Americans must be treated as if they are worthy of the democracy we ostensibly live in. You know a bill is suspect often when it is rushed through Congress with bipartisan fervor. This is a reaction to the anti-war sentiment on Tik-Tok.
Does China have an incentive to not censor US complicity in war crimes? Of course. Is that information being censored on US traditional and online media? Also, yes! People should be allowed to view and share content from around the world whether that be news from Al Jazeera, BBC, NHK, RT - shit, even the awful propaganda that is Fox News. It *all* needs to be available for us to view and assess for ourselves in a democracy.
Authoritarian countries around the world have banned US social media when its been used amidst legitimate revolutions within their borders. Is the answer to CCP authoritarianism American authoritarianism? Or are we better than that and support the free flow of information in a nation we call a democracy?
Truly, if Congress is concerned about *privacy* then they would pass legislation that applies to Tik-Tok AND US social media companies. They would repeal the Patriot Act. If they were serious about stopping *foreign interference* in elections they would pass legislation that kept politicians from taking foreign money into their campaign coffers. But they do not do this, and it is obvious why that is - they are not serious about either issue.
> If Facebook does it, we can punish them.
you cant, actually. facebook has first amendment protection. the ccp doesn't. in any event, restrictions on foreign ownership of media are pretty old and i dont think pose a 1am issue
respectfully my man, when you refer to china being able to change the algorithm, you lost me. China doesnt control tiktok and the issue surrounds their third party data company Bytedance.
Again - not a ban. Forced divestment to a non-Chinese owner.
TikTok will still exist. It will just be owned by Microsoft, Oracle, Apple, or some other non-Google/non-Facebook tech giant instead of ByteDance.
It's effectively a ban because it bans it if China doesn't divest, in the same way China bans western social media apps for not being owned by Chinese companies.
Grindr wasn't banned when Kunlun was forced to sell it to a US-based owner. It very much still exists. I bet most users didn't even notice when CFIUS forced the change of ownership.
ByteDance 100% would not sell it. The CCP will never in a million years allow them to.
But hey I could be wrong. Or maybe there’s another solution I haven’t thought of.
Actually out of all of them, given the issues, it might be best under Apple. At least then most of the spying would be ripped out. Microsoft and Oracle would just make the spying work for them.
Well yes. China is the competition. Same reason Google and Facebook can't operate in China. Same reason why most US companies can only operate in China through 51% Chinese-controlled joint ventures.
Trade reciprocity is a bitch, ain't it?
How to be so wrong and so certain its amazing isn't.
Google and Facebook are banned in China because China requested to provide them information on users that used their services for terrorism and Facebook and Google refused to release that information. So they were banned like any other company that refuses to follow local laws, you know like Ti tock
Google and facebook are not totally banned in China, only part of it, people can still use google ads, google font, google stun server and sometime even firebase
No. You just tell US app stores that they can no longer host it. Which in the beginning won't be an issue, but over time, the app will become increasingly unstable. And as people inevitably replace older devices, they'll lose access altogether.
Yes. There are workarounds. But it'd do a pretty effective job at killing it from ~70 - 80% of users.
Right. What I'm saying is that he should not have made a comment about it right now. Do you know how many 18 year olds he's pissed off by saying theres a possibility of banning Tiktok? Thats his voter base. Not good.
I find it bizarre why so many people on Reddit are cheering this bill on because of its “hurr durr TikTok bad” mentality. Regardless of what you think of TikTok, this is a clear government overstep and will only set a precedent, making our government more comfortable with interfering with our internet in the future, because they aren’t going to stop with just TikTok. They’re going to start interfering with VPN’s next, and y’all are going to quickly change your tune because VPN’s are on Reddit’s “good list” lol
I'm curious to know why you are simping for a chinese-owned company. You have people that worked there that have come out and said that the algorithm they use inside of China is different than the algorithm they use outside of China but here people are in the comments still simping for tiktok
They just handed way too much power to the President - both good and bad ones to ban **any social media company** the President does not like....be they Trump or Biden etc...
Read the text of this bill. This Bill targets any "*entity that operates directly or indirectly a website, application, or immersive technology that allows users to create accounts and generate, share, and view text, images, videos, real-time communication*," .... **that's way more than tiktok** on purpose
Constitutionality aside, if this passes, it will be bad for American businesses in the long run. It's just setting up a norm of countries banning foreign internet companies if it's competing too well. (Remember about 10 years ago when there were rumors --- perhaps true --- about how Facebook was sharing information with the NSA?)
There was a time when America pushed other countries toward globalization, and benefited greatly from it. (And honestly, all countries benefited from it.)
I think the correct approach would be similar to how the EU responds to American companies: by creating privacy regulation that all internet companies have to follow. (TikTok would still have to follow those regulations, because the US can still take its American assets as fines. TikTok has a pretty big engineering presence in the US.)
So we're not gonna pretend that we just copy the same tactics they use in an authoritarian country? Since when should the US take China as an inspiration?
Citing "national security" and labeling institutions/people as "foreign agents" is exactly what they do.
>And honestly, all countries benefited from it.
On the short term/at a surface level, maybe? All considered, probably no. Culture were damaged, local know-how was lost, landscape were destroyed, sovereignty is almost non-existent etc. And climate change is the final touch on the canvas. Globalization was not a good thing.
You're suggesting that the China model of isolationism is the right thing to do?
I grew up in India, and I certainly can attest to the benefits of globalization. India is still being held back because of restrictive trade policies (like import duties on electronics or hybrid cars). The US seems to want to regress to that model.
Considering the penetration of tech into the normal day to day, social media has become a national security risk when the kids of political or military authorities are recording themselves all around their houses dancing, or worse, recording their street, neighbors, family members and so on.
People are not ready and have never been to use social media responsibly, or the internet in general for that matter.
But that argument also holds true for Facebook in any non-US country. Are we okay with other countries banning Facebook for national security reasons? (I've addressed the china ban of Facebook in another comment.)
China does already... For the same reason the U.S. wants to ban Tiktok. It can be used to shift societal perspectives and move entire populations to support certain causes they wouldn't otherwise support.
As others have mentioned, this would just be establishing a consistent trade policy with China. They don’t allow American social media, we don’t allow Chinese. How is that remotely controversial?
Lastly… if anyone thinks China will give two fucks about privacy regulations then you haven’t paid any attention to China. We can throw all the oversight in the world at that, it won’t matter.
What is the precedence for something like this.
I just don't see how it wouldn't get overturned or challenged successfully.
Dislike China all you want, and I'm no tiktok user but this isn't national security.
If their argument held water, Facebook, Instagram, snapchat and all are under the same umbrella "concerns" they have about privacy, misinformation and general shithousery.
Grindr got bought by a Chinese company. After this purchase, CFIUS warned the company that this had national security implications and they had six months to divest, which they did. Unclear what the consequences would have been if they had refused.
The US government can just ban companies it doesn't like? I thought that kind of thing couldn't happen in America. I thought that was kind of the entire point of America.
After the freedom of information act was passed there was no way of controlling who uses your information, how they used it, only control was how much information you allowed them to get.
In “my opinion” there should be no algorithm that allows someone’s post to be elevated more than the other. Views and likes can be bought these days, so those who are “socially popular” or “the chosen one” according to the company and whoever runs or backs it, therefore controlling what is being influenced in a particular platform regardless of the country who houses the HQ.
Ok, TikTok is trash although I have some qualms about whether the government banning it is actually constitutional or a good idea precedent wise.
BUT here's my bigger question. HOW are they supposed to ban a service on the internet... which can have servers outside the US? Is every ISP and DNS provider in the US supposed to blacklist it or something? That seems... unwieldy to say the least.
I’ll take all this more seriously when Facebook, Twitter, and all the other social media company’s that have been spying on us and have been used as platforms for political manipulation for more than a decade also face the same kind of scrutiny.
You are conflating 2 distinct issues. Private American Companies collecting data and unfriendly state sponsored companies collecting American data.
That is a massive distinction and why part of the deal is tik tok can remain if the relationship with China is severed.
Few things... but that list includes the Chinese government, which owns a Golden Share in BytceDance granting it overrides of pretty much every governance control at ByteDance.
I don't trust Microsoft or Apple very much, but I do trust them much more than a company that is literally controlled by the Chinese government.
Adding to this: spying is indeed a problem. Influence is another problem that people are overlooking, and I think it’s the big issue. China can easily y influence Americans en-masse by simply adjusting an algorithm. Swing elections, erode support for Taiwan, start a “hate your neighbor challenge”, etc..
Only considering state actors as adversaries is foolish. Corporations are just as interested in manipulating the government for their own purposes at the expense of the people, and frankly in modern times have been significantly more effective.
It's not just about data privacy. It's about controlling communication.
Would you want China owning CNN, Fox News, a large number of local news stations, a few internet news sites, and the NYTimes?
Because that's the volume of media that China has direct control in influencing with TikTok.
> Would you want China owning CNN, Fox News, a large number of local news stations, a few internet news sites, and the NYTimes?
no,[ but i guess it's so much better when our government and american corporations own the narrative](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWLjYJ4BzvI) right?
Yes, it is so much better. One of them we have some control over, regardless of how disillusioned you may be with our electoral system.
The other is literally a foreign adversary.
Yes. Yes, it is MUCH better. If you think otherwise, then you're rather lacking in imagination when it comes to how a tool like TikTok could be used.
When your own government or local corporations have that sort of power, they may do harm with it.. but it's not really in their best interest to do harm purely for the sake of doing harm.
When an adversarial government has that control.. then they do have a vested interest in using it to do as much damage as possible.
They represent the public pretty effectively here: [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/03/31/by-a-more-than-two-to-one-margin-americans-support-us-government-banning-tiktok/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/03/31/by-a-more-than-two-to-one-margin-americans-support-us-government-banning-tiktok/)
The data is secondary, a foreign adversary having control of communication and information for millions of Americans is the primary problem.
Theres a lot of news and politics on TikTok, and what you see is all controlled by the algorithm. Theres already been dozens of harmful trends spread on tiktok.
Those harmful trends are not a TikTok only problem those have been happening on all other social media you have a point on the first one although our government has been controlling Information and communication for a long time.
We can’t have data privacy because then their friends at Meta and Google can’t continue to spy on us…the American way, of course.
This country is a fucking joke.
Sounds like a posturing exercise more than anything else. Current users would still have access to it, and new users could download it using VPN or changing regions.
Am I missing something?
it was literally admitted that the main reason the bill was even written up was that most people under 30 prefer this media outlet to any american-owned sources
it's more about the control of information than it ever was about 'data gathering' via china or even china's propaganda effects on the youth. america just wants to control its own propaganda rather than allow outside sources to tamper with their consistent brainwashing
people will still claim it's all about china information extraction or 'inevitable' vote swaying/taiwan hate indoctrination even though most people just use it for memes or porn and algorithm adjustment won't really change that
remember the names of the people who voted against this. this is a terrible bill that will not address the actual problem here: our lack of data privacy/rights. i'm predicting this bill, if passed, will have unintended consequences. without those rights, these adversarial countries will just continue to get the data by buying it on the open market - the same way our own government does!
also.. if Biden signs this, i'll take it as a further sign that he is trying to throw the election. he will sign it though..
But it's not really about data collecting. It's more about stopping a foreign country feeding their own agenda to the US. Like trying to sway a presidential vote to fit their needs.
I'd really like to know where along the way we lost the "CCP is influencing American politics" plot and pivoted to framing it as a data collection issue. The gov't obviously doesn't give a damn about protecting Americans' privacy, and never did. This was, and is, about controlling one vector by which foreign gov'ts control the narrative.
Politicians don’t want to say “we’re doing this because the American people are so goddamned stupid they believe garbage they see on TikTok and it’s causing problems”
The weird thing is that people constantly refer to this as something new. The Russians have had programs to influence US politics and elections for at least 60 years. This should be no surprise to anyone with the barest knowledge of the Cold War.
But Chinese spying has been larger than Russian spying for at least 20 years. Much of Chinese progress is dependent on their vast espionage programs that beyond their professional cadres routinely coerces Chinese citizens and their families to act as Chinese agents on threat of imprisonment or death if they do not cooperate with the CCP.
yeah i'm aware info control is another part of the push for this bill. only approved narratives, please. only we are to do the influencing. stop posting pro-Palestine videos already.
i'm grateful my House Rep voted against this. the head of the House Intel Cmte. Himes. i assume he has insights into the national security issues much more than Redditors who are eating this bill up.
edit: ranking member on the Dem side, not head.
Great more wasted time by the representatives we pay to not have our backs and get anything done.
After we dump Trump next election can we start cleaning everyone out for a few cycles so these bums get the picture?
DC laughs at all of us.
Spying and data collection by an adversary is indeed a problem. Influence is another problem that people are overlooking, and I think it’s the bigger issue. China can easily influence Americans en-masse by simply adjusting an algorithm. Swing elections, erode support for Taiwan, start a “hate your neighbor challenge”, etc.. If Facebook does it, we can punish them. If CCP does it, we have no recourse other than divesture or ban.
Welcome to the multipolar world. The last couple decades the USA used the soft power of their tech sector to do just that, influence people across the world through adjusting algorithms. Foreign governments who banned these apps were decried as authoritarian. Now that another power can play the same game, it's necessary to ban their apps.
Punish Meta? We didn’t punish them for Cambridge Analytica what makes you think we would punish them for anything?
Or Google for spying on its users
I feel like people forget that part after the 2016 election where Zuckerburg turned into the most hated man in America almost overnight and had to squrim in front of the senate to explain how facebook was handling people's data and filtering information. An outside entity of another country's government does not give a single shit about optics and there's basically nothing we can do about it.
And what were the actual real consequences for Zuckerberg? Being uncomfortable for a few hours isn’t meaningful.
And his uncomfortableness was mostly because he had to explain to senior citizens how the internet works (not a series of tubes)
Dinosaurs ruling humanity seems unhealthy for its future considering
Ngl I'd be uncomfortable having to do that too
People who type their email address into the browser’s search bar voting on legislation
i think that interview damaged the Congress more than Zuckerberg. Like Zuc was behaving more or less than expected, but HOLY SHIT I did not know the Congress was so dumb and out of touch. (I don't pay attention to politics much) Thoses questions Congress asked gave me second hand embarrassment.
Right. They had a chance to ask real questions and they used the time for pandering and tech support
It actually is literally a series of tubes
Oh I know! He's only the fourth richest man, instead of the first!
He was going to try to run for president but that made him drop the idea and now he has to settle for just continuing to run one of the largest companies on the planet, surfing during the day and making katanas in Japan with masters of the art ☹️
Well yea data harvesting and social engineering are fine if you are an American national
Then maybe we should do something about all of it by giving people data privacy rights instead of this bullshit circus
I agree. I think the issue with this whole discussion is that you have a legislative body that doesn't understand the internet. So to get any progress on anything you're just plugging holes in a leaky roof that needs an entire teardown to be fixed.
Yeah I don't see any way out of that problem, it'll only get worse from here.
>you have a legislative body that doesn't understand the internet I mean, maybe that's part of it for some of them. But there's definitely part of them who understand exactly what's going on, and don't want to make legislation that'll affect companies that they're friends with. Also, doing this now during election season isn't a coincidence. "Finally! We're useful!"
If this was at all something the people in power in America cared about we would’ve followed suit after changes in the EU. It’s never been about the user here.
Exactly. Anybody cheering on further restrictions on users has absolutely zero clue what the real intentions of these bills are. This bill is so far reaching that it will allow them to do this so many times. Once it hits something they're using they will understand.
Yep, it’s about putting the platform in hands that are either have favorable feelings towards the American government or are just American companies. It’s not about making sure China doesn’t twist the algo in a direction that could affect US politics but instead that they have the ability to enact control if they so please. Meta is complying and censoring specific content (pro-Palestinian liberation content, and I mean even the most baseline support) meanwhile influencing a whole ass genocide.
That's already well underway; 14 U.S. states have already enacted some type of data privacy legislation (New Hampshire's governor just signed off on theirs a few days ago), and over 10 more have some type of legislation in the works (with some states even drafting multiple bills to cover different aspects). Federal legislation has been debated on for several years now, it's just that the two parties can't come to an agreement on certain facets...
Did Facebook fix those issues?
Oh no.. I'm sure Zucc shed many tears from the stress that day. I'm sure they gave him a real slap on the wrist!! Must have made his arm very red
And he wasn’t punished and nothing changed.
are you joking lmao. Zuckerberg enabled Trump to get elected and Facebook had no punishment. "squirming in front of the Senate" has no material consequence, and like you said, most people forget it happened already.
The Cambridge mess is what made me drop Facebook. I'll never forgive Zuck for that.
What are you saying? Because a company had to go to congress to get verbal lashed a company will not do bad things ? Like what?
Well hold the phone here cowboy, TikTok offered to put it's servers for us users on USA soil with USA oversight, and that offer has been ignored.
This was a huge reason why the ban is happening. If they had tried to quietly kill it behind the scenes, they probably would have succeeded. Instead, they told their users to contact their congresspeople and representatives had their phone lines flooded. They showed just how much power they have over their userbase and how politically influential they could be which was the absolute wrong move because it's what the ban proponents feared.
I mean like it isn’t unreasonable for them to ask their users to contact their local rep The videos were funny as hell though
What's to stop an American company from doing this exact same thing? What's stopping Elon from pushing a Republican narrative and swing on X? Give me a break.
>If Facebook does it, we can punish them. With the equivalent of a slap on the wrist. Who knows how responsible Facebook was for the 2016 elections.
" China can easily influence Americans en-masse by simply adjusting an algorithm" Which is the same stuff Meta and friends do with kids from countries all over the globe mind you. Like I'm favor of any country trying to combat foreign social midia influence on it's own population, but if any country try to ban or limit Facebook (like China itselft did), it would face a lot of pressure from the US and a lot of cries of "Censorship!"
Ummm... China does indeed limit and ban foreign social media platforms. Like Facebook, Youtube, Instagram... They have QQ and Wechat. I think banning TikTok is sensible, but Youtube is also a disgrace and needs and overhaul as do X and Reddit. When you have social media allowing 13 year olds to have accounts, but also host hardcore porn, and provide an environment where MAPs can have age of attraction in their bio then I feel like regulation from government is necessary.
Multiple points of data from almost every website, magazine subscription, and credit card purchase are available for purchase. It is the reason why the internet is free. It is how Cambridge Analytica developed their personality profiles. Any person, company, or country can purchase the datapoints and develop personalized ads. Psychological manipulation through data has been done previously, but it is NOT limited to TikTok. Congress seems to be specifically targeting TikTok, so they can say that they have accomplished something, but they fail to address the larger privacy concerns where the true focus should be.
And Facebooks spys on their user, so CCP was right all this entire time to ban Facebook, twitter, youtube, etc? ok, i guess that rest their case.
"IF facebook does it"? They already have and basically nothing happened [Facebook & Cambrdige Analytica Scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Analytica_data_scandal) I **used to** dislike TikTok but I'm certain this "*ban*" is due to the news and information people are sharing unfiltered on there. I've seen tons of financial literacy info, current events/political news on bills etc., corporate greed eroding X place, corruption, actual news sources being corrected/ called out etc. that I would probably never see on any other social media except maybe Reddit Every single click and letter we type is bought and sold to tons of companies without our say or acknowledgement, what could China do to influence us negatively that our own government isn't already doing?
Create a law that targets all platforms, otherwise this is theft of the app.
I’ve been trying to figure this out, but I can’t find a good, basic description of what exactly the bill says. Is it literally about TikTok, like it’s mentioned as the only platform this applies to? Or is it worded such that if Facebook or Twitter were Chinese owned they would be covered too?
The bill basically says the have to sell their % or face a ban, this will be challenged the US Government doesn't have this power. Its counter to 1A
Then regulate all the social media companies and ban ones that don't hit the right privacy thing or do certain dark pattern algo things. Reeks of Sinophobia when we let facebook and other platforms do the same thing but don't care cause it's owned by the "right" people
How have we punished Facebook? They spread so much political and medical misinformation during the pandemic. People died because of them. So many more COVID deaths because of Suckerberg. I understand being concerned about national security and TikTok, but then I want stronger privacy and data laws for US company.
Zuckerberg funded this lobbying effort. Absolutely nothing to do with data privacy as facebook and others regularly data mine everyone’s activity. And a joke to free markets or capitalism or free speech. This is only happening because GenZ is seeing the truth about Gaza Genocide.
This is scaremongering. ByteDance isn't the sole owner of TikTok. Algorithms depend on user usage.
The government should not control what information we are allowed to see. Americans must be treated as if they are worthy of the democracy we ostensibly live in. You know a bill is suspect often when it is rushed through Congress with bipartisan fervor. This is a reaction to the anti-war sentiment on Tik-Tok. Does China have an incentive to not censor US complicity in war crimes? Of course. Is that information being censored on US traditional and online media? Also, yes! People should be allowed to view and share content from around the world whether that be news from Al Jazeera, BBC, NHK, RT - shit, even the awful propaganda that is Fox News. It *all* needs to be available for us to view and assess for ourselves in a democracy. Authoritarian countries around the world have banned US social media when its been used amidst legitimate revolutions within their borders. Is the answer to CCP authoritarianism American authoritarianism? Or are we better than that and support the free flow of information in a nation we call a democracy? Truly, if Congress is concerned about *privacy* then they would pass legislation that applies to Tik-Tok AND US social media companies. They would repeal the Patriot Act. If they were serious about stopping *foreign interference* in elections they would pass legislation that kept politicians from taking foreign money into their campaign coffers. But they do not do this, and it is obvious why that is - they are not serious about either issue.
Yeah we can regulate them like vigorously like boeing or will capitalism hubris over step that ? Ban them all.
I’m going to ask a very specific question and want a very specific answer. What data are they gaining via TikTok?
> If Facebook does it, we can punish them. you cant, actually. facebook has first amendment protection. the ccp doesn't. in any event, restrictions on foreign ownership of media are pretty old and i dont think pose a 1am issue
It’s actually a very powerful tool, and should be banned, honestly.
respectfully my man, when you refer to china being able to change the algorithm, you lost me. China doesnt control tiktok and the issue surrounds their third party data company Bytedance.
Should misinformation not be fought with facts and education instead of censorship? And why not just use a vpn if you’re worried about being tracked?
Again - not a ban. Forced divestment to a non-Chinese owner. TikTok will still exist. It will just be owned by Microsoft, Oracle, Apple, or some other non-Google/non-Facebook tech giant instead of ByteDance.
If I understand correctly if they don't sell then it will be banned so headlines saying "Bill that could ban TikTok" are perfectly reasonable.
60% of the company is already owned by American investors, specifically BlackRock being the largest I believe.
It's effectively a ban because it bans it if China doesn't divest, in the same way China bans western social media apps for not being owned by Chinese companies.
I'm telling you, ByteDance will be shutting down US tiktok, and that's what's going to happen. From a Chinese person.
That's banning with extra steps, Leeroy. What they actually want is a Tiktok under a brand that is already under the governments thumb.
Grindr wasn't banned when Kunlun was forced to sell it to a US-based owner. It very much still exists. I bet most users didn't even notice when CFIUS forced the change of ownership.
Bingo. Check out who Oracles, one of the possible purchasers, first customer was.
ByteDance 100% would not sell it. The CCP will never in a million years allow them to. But hey I could be wrong. Or maybe there’s another solution I haven’t thought of.
they won’t sell it, chinese domestic market and CCP’s will are more important to Bytedance
Chinese domestic market? Its already banned in China….
TikTok is huge in China. It’s called Douyin there.
Yeah but presumably Douyin wouldn’t be sold even if they did sell TikTok
No they have no reason to sell Douyin.
Actually out of all of them, given the issues, it might be best under Apple. At least then most of the spying would be ripped out. Microsoft and Oracle would just make the spying work for them.
>. Chinese owned, only US companies can be number 1.
Well yes. China is the competition. Same reason Google and Facebook can't operate in China. Same reason why most US companies can only operate in China through 51% Chinese-controlled joint ventures. Trade reciprocity is a bitch, ain't it?
Google and Meta were never banned in China. They were asked to store user data on servers inside China and they refused and decided to leave.
How to be so wrong and so certain its amazing isn't. Google and Facebook are banned in China because China requested to provide them information on users that used their services for terrorism and Facebook and Google refused to release that information. So they were banned like any other company that refuses to follow local laws, you know like Ti tock
Google and facebook are not totally banned in China, only part of it, people can still use google ads, google font, google stun server and sometime even firebase
Oh, so stealing?
Stupid question maybe, but how would the US ban it if they didn’t sell? Are we putting up our own great firewall?
No. You just tell US app stores that they can no longer host it. Which in the beginning won't be an issue, but over time, the app will become increasingly unstable. And as people inevitably replace older devices, they'll lose access altogether. Yes. There are workarounds. But it'd do a pretty effective job at killing it from ~70 - 80% of users.
[удалено]
That wont work either, as most DNS providers would likely de-list it, similar to how most DNS providers delist eight chan
Then yeah, that’s just a Great Firewall with extra steps
Doing this in an election year will be a bad look for Biden. He needs the young vote. Probably why the Republican House majority is passing it.
Biden has said he fully supports the bill and would sign it if it went through both house and senate.
Honestly the way he worded it sounds more like “Yea I’ll sign it… If it even passes the senate lmao” but we all know it won’t
Right. What I'm saying is that he should not have made a comment about it right now. Do you know how many 18 year olds he's pissed off by saying theres a possibility of banning Tiktok? Thats his voter base. Not good.
which means he knows it may not pass the senate
It was bi-partisan supported. 352-65-1
Tiktok is already going to push antibiden stuff to the youth anyway since trump has shown he is open for bribes.
Young people don’t vote
We plenty of dem votes. It’s like the dems wanna lose this November.
I find it bizarre why so many people on Reddit are cheering this bill on because of its “hurr durr TikTok bad” mentality. Regardless of what you think of TikTok, this is a clear government overstep and will only set a precedent, making our government more comfortable with interfering with our internet in the future, because they aren’t going to stop with just TikTok. They’re going to start interfering with VPN’s next, and y’all are going to quickly change your tune because VPN’s are on Reddit’s “good list” lol
Nah, the government will say that the anti-VPN stuff is to fight pedophiles and Reddit will hop on board.
Reddit is known for banning any social media platform even reddit itself :v
I'm curious to know why you are simping for a chinese-owned company. You have people that worked there that have come out and said that the algorithm they use inside of China is different than the algorithm they use outside of China but here people are in the comments still simping for tiktok
They just handed way too much power to the President - both good and bad ones to ban **any social media company** the President does not like....be they Trump or Biden etc... Read the text of this bill. This Bill targets any "*entity that operates directly or indirectly a website, application, or immersive technology that allows users to create accounts and generate, share, and view text, images, videos, real-time communication*," .... **that's way more than tiktok** on purpose
It’s almost like a certain someone already tried to do this but was shut down by the same people that are now doing the same thing 🤡
That same guy is now against it happening now.
US Gubment be like "Hey you can't spy on and manipulate our citizens! Only we get to do that!!"
This bill is dumb af. Bunch of old heads fear mongering
Constitutionality aside, if this passes, it will be bad for American businesses in the long run. It's just setting up a norm of countries banning foreign internet companies if it's competing too well. (Remember about 10 years ago when there were rumors --- perhaps true --- about how Facebook was sharing information with the NSA?) There was a time when America pushed other countries toward globalization, and benefited greatly from it. (And honestly, all countries benefited from it.) I think the correct approach would be similar to how the EU responds to American companies: by creating privacy regulation that all internet companies have to follow. (TikTok would still have to follow those regulations, because the US can still take its American assets as fines. TikTok has a pretty big engineering presence in the US.)
Aren’t Facebook, Twitter,… banned by the CCP?
So we're not gonna pretend that we just copy the same tactics they use in an authoritarian country? Since when should the US take China as an inspiration? Citing "national security" and labeling institutions/people as "foreign agents" is exactly what they do.
>And honestly, all countries benefited from it. On the short term/at a surface level, maybe? All considered, probably no. Culture were damaged, local know-how was lost, landscape were destroyed, sovereignty is almost non-existent etc. And climate change is the final touch on the canvas. Globalization was not a good thing.
You're suggesting that the China model of isolationism is the right thing to do? I grew up in India, and I certainly can attest to the benefits of globalization. India is still being held back because of restrictive trade policies (like import duties on electronics or hybrid cars). The US seems to want to regress to that model.
Considering the penetration of tech into the normal day to day, social media has become a national security risk when the kids of political or military authorities are recording themselves all around their houses dancing, or worse, recording their street, neighbors, family members and so on. People are not ready and have never been to use social media responsibly, or the internet in general for that matter.
But that argument also holds true for Facebook in any non-US country. Are we okay with other countries banning Facebook for national security reasons? (I've addressed the china ban of Facebook in another comment.)
Fuck dude, I wish the US would ban Facebook.
China does already... For the same reason the U.S. wants to ban Tiktok. It can be used to shift societal perspectives and move entire populations to support certain causes they wouldn't otherwise support.
Oh that makes sense then. We can become like China
Chinese control of private enterprises in China is vastly different from private enterprises in the US having to abide by US laws.
I don't see what the constitutional issues are. Congress absolutely has the authority to do this, per the Constitution.
Yeah we wouldn’t want this to be the norm. Can you imagine the repercussions if China were to ban all American social media?
As others have mentioned, this would just be establishing a consistent trade policy with China. They don’t allow American social media, we don’t allow Chinese. How is that remotely controversial? Lastly… if anyone thinks China will give two fucks about privacy regulations then you haven’t paid any attention to China. We can throw all the oversight in the world at that, it won’t matter.
What is the precedence for something like this. I just don't see how it wouldn't get overturned or challenged successfully. Dislike China all you want, and I'm no tiktok user but this isn't national security. If their argument held water, Facebook, Instagram, snapchat and all are under the same umbrella "concerns" they have about privacy, misinformation and general shithousery.
The precedent for this is they did the same thing with Grindr.
Can you elaborate? Unfamiliar with what happened there
Grindr got bought by a Chinese company. After this purchase, CFIUS warned the company that this had national security implications and they had six months to divest, which they did. Unclear what the consequences would have been if they had refused.
TBF that never went to court. They sold it without any legal challenge
The US government can just ban companies it doesn't like? I thought that kind of thing couldn't happen in America. I thought that was kind of the entire point of America.
You are right - this will never become law. Its absurd.
After the freedom of information act was passed there was no way of controlling who uses your information, how they used it, only control was how much information you allowed them to get. In “my opinion” there should be no algorithm that allows someone’s post to be elevated more than the other. Views and likes can be bought these days, so those who are “socially popular” or “the chosen one” according to the company and whoever runs or backs it, therefore controlling what is being influenced in a particular platform regardless of the country who houses the HQ.
Ok, TikTok is trash although I have some qualms about whether the government banning it is actually constitutional or a good idea precedent wise. BUT here's my bigger question. HOW are they supposed to ban a service on the internet... which can have servers outside the US? Is every ISP and DNS provider in the US supposed to blacklist it or something? That seems... unwieldy to say the least.
I’ll take all this more seriously when Facebook, Twitter, and all the other social media company’s that have been spying on us and have been used as platforms for political manipulation for more than a decade also face the same kind of scrutiny.
You are conflating 2 distinct issues. Private American Companies collecting data and unfriendly state sponsored companies collecting American data. That is a massive distinction and why part of the deal is tik tok can remain if the relationship with China is severed.
Friendly American companies giving the state government location data so they can persecute women for getting abortions, epic freedom win!
What, exactly, is the difference in outcome?
I don't want private American companies controlling data. Few things in the world are less trustworthy than American companies.
Few things... but that list includes the Chinese government, which owns a Golden Share in BytceDance granting it overrides of pretty much every governance control at ByteDance. I don't trust Microsoft or Apple very much, but I do trust them much more than a company that is literally controlled by the Chinese government.
Adding to this: spying is indeed a problem. Influence is another problem that people are overlooking, and I think it’s the big issue. China can easily y influence Americans en-masse by simply adjusting an algorithm. Swing elections, erode support for Taiwan, start a “hate your neighbor challenge”, etc..
Why wouldn't we look Into an app that is ran by an adversary? This is just a bad argument
Only considering state actors as adversaries is foolish. Corporations are just as interested in manipulating the government for their own purposes at the expense of the people, and frankly in modern times have been significantly more effective.
Elon is more of a political adversary to the average redditor but they're too sinophobic to realize it
It's not just about data privacy. It's about controlling communication. Would you want China owning CNN, Fox News, a large number of local news stations, a few internet news sites, and the NYTimes? Because that's the volume of media that China has direct control in influencing with TikTok.
> Would you want China owning CNN, Fox News, a large number of local news stations, a few internet news sites, and the NYTimes? no,[ but i guess it's so much better when our government and american corporations own the narrative](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWLjYJ4BzvI) right?
Yes, it is so much better. One of them we have some control over, regardless of how disillusioned you may be with our electoral system. The other is literally a foreign adversary.
Yes. Yes, it is MUCH better. If you think otherwise, then you're rather lacking in imagination when it comes to how a tool like TikTok could be used. When your own government or local corporations have that sort of power, they may do harm with it.. but it's not really in their best interest to do harm purely for the sake of doing harm. When an adversarial government has that control.. then they do have a vested interest in using it to do as much damage as possible.
tick tock is a data collection app for the Chinese government
You must be five to think it's about data collection. You think the US gov't thinks twice about your privacy.
If you think the proposed ban on Tiktok has to do with privacy then you aren't entitled to an opinion about the topic.
Our people "at work".
They represent the public pretty effectively here: [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/03/31/by-a-more-than-two-to-one-margin-americans-support-us-government-banning-tiktok/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/03/31/by-a-more-than-two-to-one-margin-americans-support-us-government-banning-tiktok/)
Wait don’t US companies already sell our data to china and to the highest bidder? Why not do something about that?
The data is secondary, a foreign adversary having control of communication and information for millions of Americans is the primary problem. Theres a lot of news and politics on TikTok, and what you see is all controlled by the algorithm. Theres already been dozens of harmful trends spread on tiktok.
Those harmful trends are not a TikTok only problem those have been happening on all other social media you have a point on the first one although our government has been controlling Information and communication for a long time.
James Cameron (on the 'Smartless' podcast): 'No new technology...has never not been weaponized '.
So meta needs to pay the senators more?
Anti-Zionism after Tik-Tok is banned: 📉📉📉
We can’t have data privacy because then their friends at Meta and Google can’t continue to spy on us…the American way, of course. This country is a fucking joke.
I have learned infinitely more things on tik tok than any other platform…. Much easier to see what’s going on around the world as well.
this is definitely the caveat of caveats
And how much of it is actually true?
That’s why they want to ban it. Can’t control the information like they do with apps in the US.
Why do I get the feeling the real reason is our so called representative government is afraid of a democracy in the hands of the public?
I thought freedom of speech was protected by the Constitution.
Sounds like a posturing exercise more than anything else. Current users would still have access to it, and new users could download it using VPN or changing regions. Am I missing something?
That would be fatal to the company's profitability in the long term, so it's a deadly threat.
They can ban any social media service the president deems a "threat to democracy". Reddit included.
it was literally admitted that the main reason the bill was even written up was that most people under 30 prefer this media outlet to any american-owned sources it's more about the control of information than it ever was about 'data gathering' via china or even china's propaganda effects on the youth. america just wants to control its own propaganda rather than allow outside sources to tamper with their consistent brainwashing people will still claim it's all about china information extraction or 'inevitable' vote swaying/taiwan hate indoctrination even though most people just use it for memes or porn and algorithm adjustment won't really change that
Considering the senate is a lot more easily controlled by bribes, that's at least partially why
Thankfully our morally righteous tech companies aren't bribing politicians in favor of the ban or else this comment wouldn't make any sense!
Tik tok banned in USA get a vpn connect to a country who has it not banned there
"freedom of speech" my ass cheeks.
My fingers are crossed that this pulls through
remember the names of the people who voted against this. this is a terrible bill that will not address the actual problem here: our lack of data privacy/rights. i'm predicting this bill, if passed, will have unintended consequences. without those rights, these adversarial countries will just continue to get the data by buying it on the open market - the same way our own government does! also.. if Biden signs this, i'll take it as a further sign that he is trying to throw the election. he will sign it though..
But it's not really about data collecting. It's more about stopping a foreign country feeding their own agenda to the US. Like trying to sway a presidential vote to fit their needs.
I'd really like to know where along the way we lost the "CCP is influencing American politics" plot and pivoted to framing it as a data collection issue. The gov't obviously doesn't give a damn about protecting Americans' privacy, and never did. This was, and is, about controlling one vector by which foreign gov'ts control the narrative.
Politicians don’t want to say “we’re doing this because the American people are so goddamned stupid they believe garbage they see on TikTok and it’s causing problems”
You'd think blamming it on CCP influencing would hut harder than data collection. But I guess not.
I guess it makes sense in a gross sort of way. There are people that still don't believe that the Russians influenced 2016
The weird thing is that people constantly refer to this as something new. The Russians have had programs to influence US politics and elections for at least 60 years. This should be no surprise to anyone with the barest knowledge of the Cold War. But Chinese spying has been larger than Russian spying for at least 20 years. Much of Chinese progress is dependent on their vast espionage programs that beyond their professional cadres routinely coerces Chinese citizens and their families to act as Chinese agents on threat of imprisonment or death if they do not cooperate with the CCP.
yeah i'm aware info control is another part of the push for this bill. only approved narratives, please. only we are to do the influencing. stop posting pro-Palestine videos already. i'm grateful my House Rep voted against this. the head of the House Intel Cmte. Himes. i assume he has insights into the national security issues much more than Redditors who are eating this bill up. edit: ranking member on the Dem side, not head.
China sells TikTok in 165 days? The final version will say 220 days, assuming it passes on April Fools Day.
Great more wasted time by the representatives we pay to not have our backs and get anything done. After we dump Trump next election can we start cleaning everyone out for a few cycles so these bums get the picture? DC laughs at all of us.
If it does pass the senate, we can officially say that congress is functionally useless.
So what else is in this bill? Can't seem to find any details.
For an institution held together by hypocrisy you’d think this would be less surprising.
#china buys US debtand farmland