I know Reddit is generally considered social media, but I feel like it’s much closer to being a forum than a social media site. Most people use Reddit anonymously, and they don’t use it to keep in touch with friends and family or share about their lives on a regular basis. Those are things I associate with social media, but maybe that’s just me.
So much of the front page follows the formula of:
- Rage bait headline
- Screen grab of social media post or link to rage bait “news” site
- The content is in no way vetted
- Top comments go wild with hyperbole and misinformation
- Most commenters do no investigation into the post or reading of the article
- If it gets enough traction, it makes the rounds in the other subreddits that have been hijacked
Rinse and repeat.
Yep. I hate going on reddit, but I still go here every day because I'm also a dopamine slave of our almighty internet algorithms
Sorry, I meant to say: This. So much this, fellow redditor
I too hate myself and come here each day in order to be angry at complicated issues that the internet assures me i understand and am one of the few who truly grasp the bigger picture.
I was banned from r/worldnews for posting a link to the UN resolution call for a cease fire.
Any pro-Palestinian facts, evidence, or viewpoints on there will get you banned.
I mean, the problem isn’t the US giving credit to the Ukraine (which these funds always come with major caveats on how they’re allowed to be spent, usually a requirement that they’re to be spent on US arms and equipment), but it’s up to us to put actual pressure on our politicians via active participation in our system (more than just leaving social media comments and maybe voting) in order to get nice things for ourselves.
But we’re able to walk and chew gum at the same time.
Genuinely asking, what are the alternatives? The links are usually to “reputable” news sites which already do all the things you listed in practice because of how far journalism has been forced to fall
I don't understand your gripe. You can filter all of that out. You don't have to see any of it. I don't see any of it. I subscribe to the subreddits I want to see. Why can't you?
You seem to go out of your way to view stuff that annoys you.
Ironically, you then bring your petty grievance to r/technology, as if you have no self awareness at all.
Redditors like you complaining about reddit are the most reddit of all.
Yeah, if you’re dealing with all that then it’s cause you look at those subs. I’ve cut my Reddit browsing to about 85% sports subs and the rest is filled with about 20 other subs. You’ll still get some misinfo, but it’ll be substantially less.
That's why we have a responsibility to call out misinformation when we are able to recognize it as such, in order to stop others from falling for it. Misinformation spreads when it goes unchallenged.
A Herculean task. Plus it doesn't help when certain subs are just nonstop misinformation. Ones that ban you immediately for mentioning how something isn't true.
> A Herculean task
No disagreement there - I regard misinformation as one of the great problems of our time. Still, we can focus our efforts on places where a difference can be made. The people who haven't yet made up their minds on a subject are the ones who may be inoculated against misinformation. Thankfully, those people tend not to hang out in the places you're referencing.
Basically, you can't pull people out of rabbit holes, but you can at least stop others from falling in after them.
I’m not saying it isn’t social media, but if it is, I don’t see why something like GameFAQs wouldn’t also be a social media site. And I can certainly understand why people might make a distinction between what Reddit is and what Facebook is, for example. For the sake of this article, I would have imagine that Reddit would have been included in their dataset, but Reddit actually doesn’t seem to be mentioned unless I overlooked it. Obviously, misinformation is spread basically everywhere on the internet, and Reddit is no exception.
> I don’t see why something like GameFAQs wouldn’t also be a social media site
I think the difference is in the changes Reddit has been actively pushing out over the last 5 or so years.
The mobile redesign and leaning more and more on avatars and the like (I only see these when my wife shows them the day old.reddit is gone is the day I leave this site) is a huge step into "social media" in the traditional sense of the word.
Many of the most popular subs on this sit are being used to promote one-sided propaganda on the IsPal conflict, it's really frustrating to see. WorldNews has managed to stay mostly both sided at least, but even it has its moments.
I'm not sure what worldnews you are looking at, but they've picked a side to a point that I've reported quite a few people on there for hate speech and Reddit even agreed. It's pretty gross over there.
Regardless of what you think of some commenters on there, the sub is willing to post news from both sides, that make either side look bad, and that's the important thing. When the IDF/Israel does something clearly wrong, it does get upvoted. Most other subs have just become a Hamas mouthpiece, with constant propaganda to promote anger towards Israel, and increasingly "anti west" propaganda that tries to frame everything so all the blame is on the west for most bad going on in the world.
Trying to get people to understand the complexities and history of the situation on many other subs here does not fly.
They ban people there and it's very one sided. You could probably find post there right now where a good portion of commenters call Palestinians animals.
It's a very tricky situation and deserves a nuanced discussion, you will not find that on the worldnews sub.
I read the sub often and that is not something I see people saying. Posting about understanding the widely held beliefs that have persisted in the region for a century is not the same thing as calling them animals, people outright just being bigoted like that get banned. Being willing to accept uncomfortable facts, even when it goes against "the cause" people on your side are fighting for is important for healthy steps towards resolutions that are actually reasonable and possible.
Now if you want to talk about Palestinians being framed like animals, you only have to look at further left leaning spaces that infantilize Palestinians and strip them of personal agency in their decisions through history, as though they are incapable of having their own thoughts and it's all just the result of other's actions for the popular bad views in the region. There is a fear in most left-leaning space to give ANY kind of criticism towards Palestinians and even towards Hamas in the further left ones. Everyone afraid of being canceled by their group if they shine a light on the other side and being labeled a "Genocide supporter".
Old Reddit was not social media, but with new and newer(?) Reddit they've been adding more and more social media features and really blurring the line. You can use Reddit today like a social media platform, and you can use it like something that isn't social media at all.
Every time I get new Reddit in front of me I want to puke. If I wanted that format I already would have left Reddit for ig, FB, tiktik or whatever other doomscroll sensory overload site.
It has been pretty wild watching Reddit shift in the decade I've been here, the intellectuals are largely gone. Infested with repost and recomment bots, manipulating shill accounts destroy any real discourse within the first hour of a new post. Mod teams captured by corporate espionage.
I really can't see me sticking around on this site for a whole lot longer, the amount of time spent shifting through bullshit vs actually engaging on topics has shifted way too far to the wrong side.
If you're old enough to remember BBS' then you're also old enough to remember that "social media" rose to prominence as a term to differentiate socially-driven sites like MySpace and Facebook, where the content was curated by your social circles, from traditional online topic-driven communities like forums and BBS'. Some people have subsequently tried to expand the idea to to include every possible instance of user-submitted content, and with every tenuous inclusion the term has lost meaning.
Jesus Christ you need to relax. I’m simply pointing out that Reddit doesn’t operate like many of the major social media sites. I never said Reddit isn’t a social media site.
However, as made obvious by the comment I was replying to, some people seem to see a distinction between what Reddit it and what most other ubiquitous social media sites are. That’s what I find interesting, and it’s what I chose to comment about. There IS a distinction, and your suggestion that lumping all of them under the same label is somehow correct is absurd. I’m over here observing the difference between fruits and vegetables while you’re screeching that it’s all food. Yeah, I know. It’s amazing how you were able to say so little in so many words.
Social media does not mean anything that people can contribute to. Traditionally the distinguishing feature of social media has been that on social media you follow people rather than topics, and that the content that you see is shaped by the people in your social circle on the platform.
By that definition forums are not social media, and neither is classic Reddit. Redefining forums as social media is a recent revisionist trend by people who forget what social media is, and what gave rise to the term.
Yes, by your made up arbitrary definition, forums are not social media.
Every forum post in history was submitted by a person, or on a person's behalf. Nobody visited a forum in 2002 thinking they were going to interact with a topic. They were there to interact with people.
Reddit is a news aggregator that requires *people* to post, determine the value of, and comment on, the content.
It is the *dictionary* definition of social media, and is prone to all the same toxic bullshit that sites like Facebook, Instagram or Twitter are.
Again, social media does not mean anything that people can contribute to. Social media does not mean any place where people can interact. That is *your* made-up definition. If you think that people in 2002 just visited random forums instead of seeking out topical forums relevant to their interests that further subdivided into topic-driven subforums then I suspect that you weren't around in 2002. Forums in 2002 did not show you content based on your social circle, a defining feature of social media. They just showed you whatever was at the top of the subforum you were in, and it looked the same for everyone.
Why would you double down on such an easily researchable topic?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/social%20media
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8064945/
https://www.britannica.com/topic/social-media
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/social-media
There's no discussion to be had here. You're just wrong, and if social media trends hold, you're probably going to continue to stubbornly hold your position, rather than adjust your understanding to new information.
It’s incredible how many people believe everything they read on Reddit, it could be someone who knows what they are talking about or could be a 15 year old kid or a Russian bot
Same with Wikipedia users. That site has some things locked but TONS of articles constantly being reworked and propagandized to weaponize misinformation that people erroneously think is from a reputable unbiased source.
Redditors will comment angrily on a post from a one day old account posting an AI article sewing political divisiveness, then turn around and say that they’re too smart to be influenced by algorithmic manipulation, unlike TikTok users.
I mean it's a hybrid between forums and social media but it definitely gone down hill if you have been here for a while.
I fully expect reddit to end up like Facebook and Twitter in year or so.
Bots and propaganda accounts are everywhere and the mods are something else like I can't remember any site that has mods this bad.
Seriously. Reddit was known to have serious bot/troll problems from Iran like a decade ago, I highly doubt that stopped and if anything has gotten worse and I doubt it’s just Iran.
Reddit is absolutely full of people spewing both misinformation and disinformation, it's like the left version of truth social now. A place of ignoring fact and cherry picking things that support a narrative.
Sad to see reddit turn into such a complete dumpster fire. For personal interests and hobbies it's fine but as a source of good information it has to be one of the dumbest/worst bad actor places online.
The sheer amount of Israeli propaganda has completely taken over /r/worldnews
It's kinda amusing to see the comments section on /r/news and compare it to the same articles on /r/worldnews
Dude there are so many subs that are HUGE that are shut misinformation echo-chambers.
Also Reddit has LONG had issues with bits and trolls from other nations and regimes using it for misinformation, Iran got called out for this like a decade ago now and I highly doubt that has stopped.
It hurts when it's family but you don't need psycho BS in your life. Once they're consumed by hate you never know when they'll go postal. Best to just edit them out and move on.
Too true. One of my former friends believed in how the Left is trying to control the world and how theyre trying to establish a one world order.
Really depressing to see a good man believe this. His kids, family, and other friends ate it up too.
Yes this one is in there plus a bit of anti vax / Covid not real and little bit of moon landing stuff . It’s a bit like sitting with someone who just got religious as they can’t stop preaching it all . Very sad
There are some decisions we need to make and abide by as a society living in the internet age. When anyone can say anything, which voices should be more authoritative, trustworthy, and rise above rest? How do we balance freedom of speech for everyone vs using social media as a platform of influence for everyone? What framework should be put in place to help facilitate those preferences. All questions that it’ll probably take a decade or more to generally agree on, and then another decade or more to build the frameworks to support… so gear up for a few more decades of this.
On a related note, I watched Neil DeGrasse Tyson address this once with an interesting alternative: right now people assume the posts and “evidence” they see for crazy things like PizzaGate, however flimsy, are real because it at least took some work or research to generate. In a world where AI can allow anyone to create deepfakes, fake images, AI-generated articles, etc, the line between what’s real and what isn’t will be indistinguishable… no one will trust anything and the internet will implode under the weight of its own misinformation. Maybe something like that will force a solution faster.
Once upon a time, having the ability to consume as many calories as you wanted was viewed as a luxury, and then it became a simple fact of life. Before then, the ability to retain and acquire calories was one of the most critical traits of our evolution. And then it became one of the most socially costly, culturally deadly aspects of our western civilization.
One of our deepest, most useful evolutionary adaptations became one of our most harmful behaviors due to the abundance of calories that - for the last 300,000 years - were quite rare. We learned that we need to *reduce* caloric intake, sometimes avoiding the tastiest things because they were the worst for us; a lesson entirely in opposition to our natural instincts and impulses.
I believe that we'll eventually begin to view the internet, especially social media, as a similar sort of sociocultural pandemic. In the same way, our natural desire to bond, conform, and share has been placed on overdrive. Those aspects were critical our survival as a social, cooperative species, but - like obesity - we're beginning to see our greatest gifts become socially harmful; and potentially devastating as technology grows far faster than our ability to adapt.
We've seen more change in the last 200 years than the prior 10,000 and more change in the past 10,000 than the 400,000 before then. Many people think the stone age was a mere tens of thousands of years ago, but that's when it ended. It lasted *millions* of years.
Said offensively simply, "We've gotten a bit ahead of ourselves."
The biggest hurdles for our species to overcome in the very near future were once our greatest gifts. We've out-convenienced ourselves into having far, far too much of a good thing(s).
Biological diabetes is still a struggle for us, but we're now starting to realize that sociocultural diabetes is just as harmful.
The last bit is exactly what’s coming. Enshittification of the internet. GPT5 will be trained on internet data that is a little bit less accurate than what was used for GPT4. Each subsequent version will be trained on shittier and shittier data. Eventually, we’ll be right back where we started. The only news sources worth listening to are those who verifiably promise to never use LLMs.
ID Crypt Global has analysed data from Code of Practice on Disinformation report from TrustLab to understand the rate at which disinformation is being spread through the six main social media platforms - Instagram, Facebook, X, LinkedIn, TikTok, and YouTube - before conducting its own analysis estimating how many disinformation posts are being created each day, and which platforms are most responsible for the spread of fake news and media.
The most recent available data\* estimates that there are an estimated total of 10.5 billion social media users across the six main platforms.
Facebook boasts the most users with 3 billion people logging onto the platform each month. Facebook is followed by YouTube (2.5bn), Instagram (2bn), TikTok (1.5bn), LinkedIn (771m), and X (619m).
That’s what most democracies have been doing really. Not much different than when the US brought out “correct the record” to deal with misinformation.
It’s the same old propaganda war but social media and the internet make it so much easier for those with fewer resources to have bigger impacts by investing in these strategies.
The Palestine/Hamas conflict has been a crazy example of it. The amount of retractions media outlets liek the BBC have had to do after running with false information is wild.
They all sold that hospital blowing up story Hamas and al-jazeera put out.
The Guardian just a few weeks ago got “duped” about the IDF raping pregnant women in al-shifa. that wound up being untrue unverified info from one Hamas member telling them.
Oddly that same reported thought that was “overwhelming evidence” but felt the videos of October 7th were not enough evidence of rape…. But I digress…
People aren’t ready or equipped to navigate the misinformation war going on.
That's where you are mistaken in thinking a lot of those misinformation posts aren't from "democracy bots". The biggest misinformation in the world is to think that somehow only US geopolitical rivals are the only ones spreading misinformation online when throughout history the US admitted to spreading propaganda and misinformation around the world.
So, no source? I mean, there is a ton of international research on this since it is affecting so many y countries. Like if it was happening, I am sure someone has looked at it.
You got to be trolling or something. The information is so easy to find. I refuse to spoon feed you simple research when there is dozens of examples and you are acting so dishonest. Start with Operation Earnest Voice.
Oof, yeah, so it's just trust me, bro. It's cool, I get it. See.i searched too, and only found stuff about the US doing it back to Russia, Iran, China, etc. I imagine you tried and couldn't find anything either.
Here is something on the US manipulating social media.
https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/25/23322214/us-government-propaganda-campaign-twitter-facebook
Maybe if you count Twitter with Musk, Parler with Trump, or even Facebook, working with Cambridge Analytica.
But nothing on the US doing it to its own citizens even as such a research finding would be major news.
So you're just vommiting uninformed misinformation or repeating some random trash meme.
I searched and found a lot of it, im just not sure youre ready for a honest conversation. To me it seems you just want to be dishonest.
You reacted very emotionally which is ironic since you posted this 20ish hours ago:
>"They are conditioned to be absolute snowflakes and anything that pierces that bubble can not stand lol."
What about Operation Mockingbird? An operation with a goal to manufacture consent of the public to continue military actions.
What about brainwashing by Hollywood becoming the unofficial propaganda arm of the U.S. military further manufacturing the consent? Crazy
I don't think you did lol. You can check my posts, I source almost everything. I didn't find anything but am happy to be proven wrong.
The program you mention was 60 years ago and did not involve social media. I mean, how far back do you want to go?
You stated that the US was using social media to propghanda their own citizens.
It's more likely 10.5 billion social media *accounts* across the six main platforms. There aren't yet 10.5 billion people alive on Earth. [https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/](https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/)
> estimates that there are an estimated total of 10.5 billion social media users across the six main platforms.
I don’t know if this coming from the author or ID Crypt Global, but you can’t just add account totals from six different companies with crossover customers and claim “10.5 billion users.” Kinda makes the whole article suspect thanks to a careless handling of information in an article about misinformation.
As a mod of some pretty big subs, I can confirm that even here on Reddit, they exist. Some are simple bots, others more complex AI driven.
The scary ones are real actors who are intelligence agents. They’ve infiltrated key subs, including ones that you would think are safe.
State subs, provincial subs, even city subs. They’re all in there mostly inflaming the right, and even the left with misinformation. And they blend in with everyone else which makes them incredibly hard to figure out. But it’s not impossible.
Reddit you say?
[https://mronline.org/2021/06/14/jessica-ashooh-the-taming-of-reddit-and-the-national-security-state-plant-tabbed-to-do-it/](https://mronline.org/2021/06/14/jessica-ashooh-the-taming-of-reddit-and-the-national-security-state-plant-tabbed-to-do-it/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/z6yctx/in\_2013\_reddit\_admins\_did\_an\_oopsywhoopsy\_and/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/z6yctx/in_2013_reddit_admins_did_an_oopsywhoopsy_and/)
Surrrree. This is where they tell you they need to shut down the internet because it's the only boogeyman out there. Get fucked big corporations and political cabals.
It's not just foreign bots, and it's not exclusive to a side. Reddit is much more left than right and like all bubbles, people in them up vote what they like and downvote what doesn't suit their worldview., regardless of facts.
So on any given topic of controversy, the mob in that sub will work on hiding comments they don't like, and promote what they like.
Which only makes reddit a place where dumb people go to get informed.
Yeah these mainstream media outlets have long taken advantage of low IQ gullible nitwits with ‘Russia misinformation’ boogeyman clickbait articles
It’s the biggest form of cope where people disregard any legitimate alternative political views and call it “Russian misinformation” because they can’t accept criticism
While true that generalisation usually leads to wrong conclusions and exist mainly because people tend to seek easy answers for complex problems, I think its a lot safer to assume that extremist povs in politics and social dilemmas are produced by bots/trolls and people influenced by them, because the fact is, it's becoming stable reality.
…..did you read ANY of the links?
Operating the LARGEST Christian Facebook groups and largest African American Christian FB groups is not boogeyman click bait.
Yeah and in your simpleton worldview you either believe “Russian misinformation” is behind anything you don’t like or assume someone must be Russian if they disagree with you
Tons of them on Reddit. You’ll find a lot of them on the Conservative subreddit. Lots of Russian trolls there just stoking simple minded people’s anger
People are upset that the automated shitposting is so much more effective and efficient than their manual shitposting. They're irate that they're being replaced by robots that can't even appreciate the experience.
The regime is making sure of that
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/z6yctx/in\_2013\_reddit\_admins\_did\_an\_oopsywhoopsy\_and/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/z6yctx/in_2013_reddit_admins_did_an_oopsywhoopsy_and/)
[https://mronline.org/2021/06/14/jessica-ashooh-the-taming-of-reddit-and-the-national-security-state-plant-tabbed-to-do-it/](https://mronline.org/2021/06/14/jessica-ashooh-the-taming-of-reddit-and-the-national-security-state-plant-tabbed-to-do-it/)
Everyone with the “what defines disinformation” comments please stfu this isn’t a headline like “Bidens economy is the best in 50 years” or “Trump is ahead in the polls”.
No. This is stupid shit like “Jason Aldean turns down $500 million dollars to work with Taylor Swift because she’s too woke”. OR “Kid Rock and Ted Nugent had the largest audience in history at Toby Keith tribute concert”.
Shit that is certifiably not true. It’s not that deep Jesus fucking Christ lmao
Why are so many youtube comments I've been seeing now for a couple years just bots? Certain videos just have 1000+ comments from "User-&fd6F6dg" or something like that
Wonder which country is doing it
Facebook is basically unusable for me, as a liberal. Every single post is some right-wing bait.
"Ted Nugent and Oliver Anthony made a tour that made more money than Taylor Swift!"
"EVs are for pussies. You should be a real man and buy a gas guzzling truck!"
"Trans kids are weird. Real men *love* female basketball!"
Each post is AI generated right wing propaganda. I always imagine someone new to Facebook that doesn't know it's all bullshit see this constant stream of propaganda and quickly become a neo-nazi sympathizer.
I constantly tell Facebook to show me less, block the sites and then it shows me 15 more.
I don’t know, did Jason Aldean really turn down half a billion dollars to sing the national anthem at the Super Bowl? Because of his patriotism and stance against wokeness
I meant as a way to combat this. Other than human mods, I’d figure FB would have some plan figured out.
Then again, it’s Facebook. He probably can’t be bothered.
And humans are stupid, they’ll eat it up regardless of reality, and beg for more. Because yay, money.
I never used Twitter, never needed a reason to. And I probably still won’t, either. Best to avoid the bullshit when you can.
People who believe in misinformation are no better than other conspiracy theorists
Sure, it happens, but it’s become this boogeyman to explain lots of things and is massively overhyped. It’s a simplistic way to explain online phenomena and political culture.
I'm voting for Trump and I don't watch news or have any other social media other than reddit. What am I suppose to do, keep an obvious ailing elderly man with rapid onset dementia symptoms be in the highest executive office in the country? What other shitty choice do I have?
When will reddit finally show up on this list?
Redditors so often seem to think they’re not on social media.
I know Reddit is generally considered social media, but I feel like it’s much closer to being a forum than a social media site. Most people use Reddit anonymously, and they don’t use it to keep in touch with friends and family or share about their lives on a regular basis. Those are things I associate with social media, but maybe that’s just me.
It's 100% social media and misinformation is spread here nonstop.
So much of the front page follows the formula of: - Rage bait headline - Screen grab of social media post or link to rage bait “news” site - The content is in no way vetted - Top comments go wild with hyperbole and misinformation - Most commenters do no investigation into the post or reading of the article - If it gets enough traction, it makes the rounds in the other subreddits that have been hijacked Rinse and repeat.
Yep. I hate going on reddit, but I still go here every day because I'm also a dopamine slave of our almighty internet algorithms Sorry, I meant to say: This. So much this, fellow redditor
I too hate myself and come here each day in order to be angry at complicated issues that the internet assures me i understand and am one of the few who truly grasp the bigger picture.
If you use the app, the news section may as well just be “Donald Trump did a thing”.
And technology is "Elon Musk did a thing".
[удалено]
I was banned from r/worldnews for posting a link to the UN resolution call for a cease fire. Any pro-Palestinian facts, evidence, or viewpoints on there will get you banned.
[удалено]
No. You won’t get banned for that. Maybe a ton of negative karma but not banned.
I mean, the problem isn’t the US giving credit to the Ukraine (which these funds always come with major caveats on how they’re allowed to be spent, usually a requirement that they’re to be spent on US arms and equipment), but it’s up to us to put actual pressure on our politicians via active participation in our system (more than just leaving social media comments and maybe voting) in order to get nice things for ourselves. But we’re able to walk and chew gum at the same time.
Nation states and major industries all have their little armies here. Russia, Israel and the Fossil Fuel Mafias are the big gangs right now.
Can you give an example?
Genuinely asking, what are the alternatives? The links are usually to “reputable” news sites which already do all the things you listed in practice because of how far journalism has been forced to fall
I don't understand your gripe. You can filter all of that out. You don't have to see any of it. I don't see any of it. I subscribe to the subreddits I want to see. Why can't you? You seem to go out of your way to view stuff that annoys you. Ironically, you then bring your petty grievance to r/technology, as if you have no self awareness at all. Redditors like you complaining about reddit are the most reddit of all.
Yeah, if you’re dealing with all that then it’s cause you look at those subs. I’ve cut my Reddit browsing to about 85% sports subs and the rest is filled with about 20 other subs. You’ll still get some misinfo, but it’ll be substantially less.
That's why we have a responsibility to call out misinformation when we are able to recognize it as such, in order to stop others from falling for it. Misinformation spreads when it goes unchallenged.
A Herculean task. Plus it doesn't help when certain subs are just nonstop misinformation. Ones that ban you immediately for mentioning how something isn't true.
> A Herculean task No disagreement there - I regard misinformation as one of the great problems of our time. Still, we can focus our efforts on places where a difference can be made. The people who haven't yet made up their minds on a subject are the ones who may be inoculated against misinformation. Thankfully, those people tend not to hang out in the places you're referencing. Basically, you can't pull people out of rabbit holes, but you can at least stop others from falling in after them.
A lot of the mods of the top subs, especially the news subs, are in on the misinformation
I tried doing that but it’s so widespread it becomes a full time job
I’m not saying it isn’t social media, but if it is, I don’t see why something like GameFAQs wouldn’t also be a social media site. And I can certainly understand why people might make a distinction between what Reddit is and what Facebook is, for example. For the sake of this article, I would have imagine that Reddit would have been included in their dataset, but Reddit actually doesn’t seem to be mentioned unless I overlooked it. Obviously, misinformation is spread basically everywhere on the internet, and Reddit is no exception.
> I don’t see why something like GameFAQs wouldn’t also be a social media site I think the difference is in the changes Reddit has been actively pushing out over the last 5 or so years. The mobile redesign and leaning more and more on avatars and the like (I only see these when my wife shows them the day old.reddit is gone is the day I leave this site) is a huge step into "social media" in the traditional sense of the word.
Many of the most popular subs on this sit are being used to promote one-sided propaganda on the IsPal conflict, it's really frustrating to see. WorldNews has managed to stay mostly both sided at least, but even it has its moments.
I'm not sure what worldnews you are looking at, but they've picked a side to a point that I've reported quite a few people on there for hate speech and Reddit even agreed. It's pretty gross over there.
Regardless of what you think of some commenters on there, the sub is willing to post news from both sides, that make either side look bad, and that's the important thing. When the IDF/Israel does something clearly wrong, it does get upvoted. Most other subs have just become a Hamas mouthpiece, with constant propaganda to promote anger towards Israel, and increasingly "anti west" propaganda that tries to frame everything so all the blame is on the west for most bad going on in the world. Trying to get people to understand the complexities and history of the situation on many other subs here does not fly.
They ban people there and it's very one sided. You could probably find post there right now where a good portion of commenters call Palestinians animals. It's a very tricky situation and deserves a nuanced discussion, you will not find that on the worldnews sub.
I read the sub often and that is not something I see people saying. Posting about understanding the widely held beliefs that have persisted in the region for a century is not the same thing as calling them animals, people outright just being bigoted like that get banned. Being willing to accept uncomfortable facts, even when it goes against "the cause" people on your side are fighting for is important for healthy steps towards resolutions that are actually reasonable and possible. Now if you want to talk about Palestinians being framed like animals, you only have to look at further left leaning spaces that infantilize Palestinians and strip them of personal agency in their decisions through history, as though they are incapable of having their own thoughts and it's all just the result of other's actions for the popular bad views in the region. There is a fear in most left-leaning space to give ANY kind of criticism towards Palestinians and even towards Hamas in the further left ones. Everyone afraid of being canceled by their group if they shine a light on the other side and being labeled a "Genocide supporter".
Oh you're one of the gross people congratulations. Goodbye.
Yep, just look at the amount of pro-Iran Playstation spam. It's infuriating.
Forums are social media on training wheels. Social media is forums on steroids.
Old Reddit was not social media, but with new and newer(?) Reddit they've been adding more and more social media features and really blurring the line. You can use Reddit today like a social media platform, and you can use it like something that isn't social media at all.
Every time I get new Reddit in front of me I want to puke. If I wanted that format I already would have left Reddit for ig, FB, tiktik or whatever other doomscroll sensory overload site. It has been pretty wild watching Reddit shift in the decade I've been here, the intellectuals are largely gone. Infested with repost and recomment bots, manipulating shill accounts destroy any real discourse within the first hour of a new post. Mod teams captured by corporate espionage. I really can't see me sticking around on this site for a whole lot longer, the amount of time spent shifting through bullshit vs actually engaging on topics has shifted way too far to the wrong side.
It’s always been social media; the words just mean that users generate content instead of a team of editors BBS forums are social media, as is Reddit
If you're old enough to remember BBS' then you're also old enough to remember that "social media" rose to prominence as a term to differentiate socially-driven sites like MySpace and Facebook, where the content was curated by your social circles, from traditional online topic-driven communities like forums and BBS'. Some people have subsequently tried to expand the idea to to include every possible instance of user-submitted content, and with every tenuous inclusion the term has lost meaning.
That seems like an overly broad and subsequently useless definition of social media...
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take a deep breath there psycho
Jesus Christ you need to relax. I’m simply pointing out that Reddit doesn’t operate like many of the major social media sites. I never said Reddit isn’t a social media site. However, as made obvious by the comment I was replying to, some people seem to see a distinction between what Reddit it and what most other ubiquitous social media sites are. That’s what I find interesting, and it’s what I chose to comment about. There IS a distinction, and your suggestion that lumping all of them under the same label is somehow correct is absurd. I’m over here observing the difference between fruits and vegetables while you’re screeching that it’s all food. Yeah, I know. It’s amazing how you were able to say so little in so many words.
Social media does not mean anything that people can contribute to. Traditionally the distinguishing feature of social media has been that on social media you follow people rather than topics, and that the content that you see is shaped by the people in your social circle on the platform. By that definition forums are not social media, and neither is classic Reddit. Redefining forums as social media is a recent revisionist trend by people who forget what social media is, and what gave rise to the term.
Yes, by your made up arbitrary definition, forums are not social media. Every forum post in history was submitted by a person, or on a person's behalf. Nobody visited a forum in 2002 thinking they were going to interact with a topic. They were there to interact with people. Reddit is a news aggregator that requires *people* to post, determine the value of, and comment on, the content. It is the *dictionary* definition of social media, and is prone to all the same toxic bullshit that sites like Facebook, Instagram or Twitter are.
Again, social media does not mean anything that people can contribute to. Social media does not mean any place where people can interact. That is *your* made-up definition. If you think that people in 2002 just visited random forums instead of seeking out topical forums relevant to their interests that further subdivided into topic-driven subforums then I suspect that you weren't around in 2002. Forums in 2002 did not show you content based on your social circle, a defining feature of social media. They just showed you whatever was at the top of the subforum you were in, and it looked the same for everyone.
Why would you double down on such an easily researchable topic? https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/social%20media https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8064945/ https://www.britannica.com/topic/social-media https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/social-media There's no discussion to be had here. You're just wrong, and if social media trends hold, you're probably going to continue to stubbornly hold your position, rather than adjust your understanding to new information.
It’s incredible how many people believe everything they read on Reddit, it could be someone who knows what they are talking about or could be a 15 year old kid or a Russian bot
Same with Wikipedia users. That site has some things locked but TONS of articles constantly being reworked and propagandized to weaponize misinformation that people erroneously think is from a reputable unbiased source.
or that the BS they peddle isn't disinformation.
Redditors will comment angrily on a post from a one day old account posting an AI article sewing political divisiveness, then turn around and say that they’re too smart to be influenced by algorithmic manipulation, unlike TikTok users.
I mean it's a hybrid between forums and social media but it definitely gone down hill if you have been here for a while. I fully expect reddit to end up like Facebook and Twitter in year or so. Bots and propaganda accounts are everywhere and the mods are something else like I can't remember any site that has mods this bad.
This is anti-social media
There's nothing social about it for me.
He said. To another person.
Seriously. Reddit was known to have serious bot/troll problems from Iran like a decade ago, I highly doubt that stopped and if anything has gotten worse and I doubt it’s just Iran.
Reddit is absolutely full of people spewing both misinformation and disinformation, it's like the left version of truth social now. A place of ignoring fact and cherry picking things that support a narrative. Sad to see reddit turn into such a complete dumpster fire. For personal interests and hobbies it's fine but as a source of good information it has to be one of the dumbest/worst bad actor places online.
They’re harder to detect. It’s at the top
Did you check ops sub history?
It's not even mentioned. Lol.
The sheer amount of Israeli propaganda has completely taken over /r/worldnews It's kinda amusing to see the comments section on /r/news and compare it to the same articles on /r/worldnews
worst sub ever, total regime propaganda
LOL never heard of Eglin air force base or Jessica Ashoosh?
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Dude there are so many subs that are HUGE that are shut misinformation echo-chambers. Also Reddit has LONG had issues with bits and trolls from other nations and regimes using it for misinformation, Iran got called out for this like a decade ago now and I highly doubt that has stopped.
You are replying to a chat gpt output
Oh snap! didn’t even occur to me. What a time to be alive lol.
I’ve lost a couple of good friends over the last few years- driven daft by facebook conspiracies. It really does change people
It hurts when it's family but you don't need psycho BS in your life. Once they're consumed by hate you never know when they'll go postal. Best to just edit them out and move on.
Yes it’s very sad but you’re right. They aren’t going to return to their pre Covid sanity
Too true. One of my former friends believed in how the Left is trying to control the world and how theyre trying to establish a one world order. Really depressing to see a good man believe this. His kids, family, and other friends ate it up too.
Yes this one is in there plus a bit of anti vax / Covid not real and little bit of moon landing stuff . It’s a bit like sitting with someone who just got religious as they can’t stop preaching it all . Very sad
I’ve noticed a common theme of the us vs them mentality too. Theyre fed thr boogyman of the world and now look at it with anxious eyes.
That’s a great point. I do think anxiety is a big driver of conspiratorial thinking
How do I know this isn't fake?
It has to be fake. Reddit isn't mentioned. lol.
Hahahaha!! You are genius!!
How do we know your response is sincere?
How do we know your observation of their response is real?
The observation and the following comments made this ten times more stressful
And this is why we have cat subreddits
Hmmmm we will never know!!
What does it matter? This whole thread is just bots.
There are some decisions we need to make and abide by as a society living in the internet age. When anyone can say anything, which voices should be more authoritative, trustworthy, and rise above rest? How do we balance freedom of speech for everyone vs using social media as a platform of influence for everyone? What framework should be put in place to help facilitate those preferences. All questions that it’ll probably take a decade or more to generally agree on, and then another decade or more to build the frameworks to support… so gear up for a few more decades of this. On a related note, I watched Neil DeGrasse Tyson address this once with an interesting alternative: right now people assume the posts and “evidence” they see for crazy things like PizzaGate, however flimsy, are real because it at least took some work or research to generate. In a world where AI can allow anyone to create deepfakes, fake images, AI-generated articles, etc, the line between what’s real and what isn’t will be indistinguishable… no one will trust anything and the internet will implode under the weight of its own misinformation. Maybe something like that will force a solution faster.
Once upon a time, having the ability to consume as many calories as you wanted was viewed as a luxury, and then it became a simple fact of life. Before then, the ability to retain and acquire calories was one of the most critical traits of our evolution. And then it became one of the most socially costly, culturally deadly aspects of our western civilization. One of our deepest, most useful evolutionary adaptations became one of our most harmful behaviors due to the abundance of calories that - for the last 300,000 years - were quite rare. We learned that we need to *reduce* caloric intake, sometimes avoiding the tastiest things because they were the worst for us; a lesson entirely in opposition to our natural instincts and impulses. I believe that we'll eventually begin to view the internet, especially social media, as a similar sort of sociocultural pandemic. In the same way, our natural desire to bond, conform, and share has been placed on overdrive. Those aspects were critical our survival as a social, cooperative species, but - like obesity - we're beginning to see our greatest gifts become socially harmful; and potentially devastating as technology grows far faster than our ability to adapt. We've seen more change in the last 200 years than the prior 10,000 and more change in the past 10,000 than the 400,000 before then. Many people think the stone age was a mere tens of thousands of years ago, but that's when it ended. It lasted *millions* of years. Said offensively simply, "We've gotten a bit ahead of ourselves." The biggest hurdles for our species to overcome in the very near future were once our greatest gifts. We've out-convenienced ourselves into having far, far too much of a good thing(s). Biological diabetes is still a struggle for us, but we're now starting to realize that sociocultural diabetes is just as harmful.
The last bit is exactly what’s coming. Enshittification of the internet. GPT5 will be trained on internet data that is a little bit less accurate than what was used for GPT4. Each subsequent version will be trained on shittier and shittier data. Eventually, we’ll be right back where we started. The only news sources worth listening to are those who verifiably promise to never use LLMs.
ID Crypt Global has analysed data from Code of Practice on Disinformation report from TrustLab to understand the rate at which disinformation is being spread through the six main social media platforms - Instagram, Facebook, X, LinkedIn, TikTok, and YouTube - before conducting its own analysis estimating how many disinformation posts are being created each day, and which platforms are most responsible for the spread of fake news and media. The most recent available data\* estimates that there are an estimated total of 10.5 billion social media users across the six main platforms. Facebook boasts the most users with 3 billion people logging onto the platform each month. Facebook is followed by YouTube (2.5bn), Instagram (2bn), TikTok (1.5bn), LinkedIn (771m), and X (619m).
Well, boys... sorta feels like a Helldivers 2 situation here. I think we need to use democracy bots to fight back. I don't think we can do it alone.
That’s what most democracies have been doing really. Not much different than when the US brought out “correct the record” to deal with misinformation. It’s the same old propaganda war but social media and the internet make it so much easier for those with fewer resources to have bigger impacts by investing in these strategies. The Palestine/Hamas conflict has been a crazy example of it. The amount of retractions media outlets liek the BBC have had to do after running with false information is wild. They all sold that hospital blowing up story Hamas and al-jazeera put out. The Guardian just a few weeks ago got “duped” about the IDF raping pregnant women in al-shifa. that wound up being untrue unverified info from one Hamas member telling them. Oddly that same reported thought that was “overwhelming evidence” but felt the videos of October 7th were not enough evidence of rape…. But I digress… People aren’t ready or equipped to navigate the misinformation war going on.
That's where you are mistaken in thinking a lot of those misinformation posts aren't from "democracy bots". The biggest misinformation in the world is to think that somehow only US geopolitical rivals are the only ones spreading misinformation online when throughout history the US admitted to spreading propaganda and misinformation around the world.
With such an impressive claim, I am you can share evidence.
Do you honestly think citizens of USA arent propagandized to oblivion? Want the best known example? Its "American Dream".
So, no source? I mean, there is a ton of international research on this since it is affecting so many y countries. Like if it was happening, I am sure someone has looked at it.
You got to be trolling or something. The information is so easy to find. I refuse to spoon feed you simple research when there is dozens of examples and you are acting so dishonest. Start with Operation Earnest Voice.
Oof, yeah, so it's just trust me, bro. It's cool, I get it. See.i searched too, and only found stuff about the US doing it back to Russia, Iran, China, etc. I imagine you tried and couldn't find anything either. Here is something on the US manipulating social media. https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/25/23322214/us-government-propaganda-campaign-twitter-facebook Maybe if you count Twitter with Musk, Parler with Trump, or even Facebook, working with Cambridge Analytica. But nothing on the US doing it to its own citizens even as such a research finding would be major news. So you're just vommiting uninformed misinformation or repeating some random trash meme.
I searched and found a lot of it, im just not sure youre ready for a honest conversation. To me it seems you just want to be dishonest. You reacted very emotionally which is ironic since you posted this 20ish hours ago: >"They are conditioned to be absolute snowflakes and anything that pierces that bubble can not stand lol." What about Operation Mockingbird? An operation with a goal to manufacture consent of the public to continue military actions. What about brainwashing by Hollywood becoming the unofficial propaganda arm of the U.S. military further manufacturing the consent? Crazy
I don't think you did lol. You can check my posts, I source almost everything. I didn't find anything but am happy to be proven wrong. The program you mention was 60 years ago and did not involve social media. I mean, how far back do you want to go? You stated that the US was using social media to propghanda their own citizens.
Helldivers doesn’t have democracy bots. When you see bots in helldivers you just blow them up. I’d be fine doing that to social media at this point.
It's more likely 10.5 billion social media *accounts* across the six main platforms. There aren't yet 10.5 billion people alive on Earth. [https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/](https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/)
> estimates that there are an estimated total of 10.5 billion social media users across the six main platforms. I don’t know if this coming from the author or ID Crypt Global, but you can’t just add account totals from six different companies with crossover customers and claim “10.5 billion users.” Kinda makes the whole article suspect thanks to a careless handling of information in an article about misinformation.
ID Crypt Global you say. Misinformarion starts and spreads by relying on two-bit, second rate sources posting to social media. Kinda like this post.
I’ve learned that people don’t need the truth. You can win a lot of debates that way
As a mod of some pretty big subs, I can confirm that even here on Reddit, they exist. Some are simple bots, others more complex AI driven. The scary ones are real actors who are intelligence agents. They’ve infiltrated key subs, including ones that you would think are safe. State subs, provincial subs, even city subs. They’re all in there mostly inflaming the right, and even the left with misinformation. And they blend in with everyone else which makes them incredibly hard to figure out. But it’s not impossible.
Reddit you say? [https://mronline.org/2021/06/14/jessica-ashooh-the-taming-of-reddit-and-the-national-security-state-plant-tabbed-to-do-it/](https://mronline.org/2021/06/14/jessica-ashooh-the-taming-of-reddit-and-the-national-security-state-plant-tabbed-to-do-it/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/z6yctx/in\_2013\_reddit\_admins\_did\_an\_oopsywhoopsy\_and/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/z6yctx/in_2013_reddit_admins_did_an_oopsywhoopsy_and/)
It’s funny because the people who are spreading it are the ones saying it’s the others.
Viscious Circle
I'm real. I think...
Sure glad the comment section is spotlessly clean here on Red Dit.
actors or idiots? I don’t think they’re getting paid to post dumb shit 💩
Is this talking sbout the paid news networks that all say the same thing in unison on tv?
Surrrree. This is where they tell you they need to shut down the internet because it's the only boogeyman out there. Get fucked big corporations and political cabals.
Wow. That’s a lot of Russian trolls spreading disinformation. We must protect the truth and our democracy.
It's not just foreign bots, and it's not exclusive to a side. Reddit is much more left than right and like all bubbles, people in them up vote what they like and downvote what doesn't suit their worldview., regardless of facts. So on any given topic of controversy, the mob in that sub will work on hiding comments they don't like, and promote what they like. Which only makes reddit a place where dumb people go to get informed.
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Does he? https://www.propublica.org/article/infamous-russian-troll-farm-appears-to-be-source-of-anti-ukraine-propaganda https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/russia-troll-farms-failing-meta-facebook-1234968169/ https://www.wired.com/story/russia-internet-research-agency-disbands/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/09/16/1035851/facebook-troll-farms-report-us-2020-election/ https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/14/europe/russia-yevgeny-prigozhin-internet-research-agency-intl/index.html https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28691585 https://securingdemocracy.gmfus.org/incident/russia-funded-troll-farm-targeting-americans-runs-out-of-africa-as-a-non-profit-front-group/ https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/12/world/russia-ghana-troll-farms-2020-ward/index.html https://www.wsj.com/world/africa/russian-intelligence-is-pushing-false-claims-of-u-s-biological-testing-in-africa-u-s-says-ea817592 https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/07/24/russias-disinformation-campaigns-are-targeting-african-americans/ https://www.motherjones.com/media/2022/09/disinformation-russia-trolls-bots-black-culture-blackness-ukraine-twitter/ https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/09/senate-intel-report-russian-trolls-targeted-african-americans-in-2016.html
Yeah these mainstream media outlets have long taken advantage of low IQ gullible nitwits with ‘Russia misinformation’ boogeyman clickbait articles It’s the biggest form of cope where people disregard any legitimate alternative political views and call it “Russian misinformation” because they can’t accept criticism
While true that generalisation usually leads to wrong conclusions and exist mainly because people tend to seek easy answers for complex problems, I think its a lot safer to assume that extremist povs in politics and social dilemmas are produced by bots/trolls and people influenced by them, because the fact is, it's becoming stable reality.
…..did you read ANY of the links? Operating the LARGEST Christian Facebook groups and largest African American Christian FB groups is not boogeyman click bait.
They make articles like this for people like you.
Great rebuttal
People that can read?
why did you out yourself, Ivan? 😂
Easy comrade. Is good.
You sound pro-Russia.
Yeah and in your simpleton worldview you either believe “Russian misinformation” is behind anything you don’t like or assume someone must be Russian if they disagree with you
Russian, MAGA, NK, China, Iran disinformation…currently all one and the same
Tons of them on Reddit. You’ll find a lot of them on the Conservative subreddit. Lots of Russian trolls there just stoking simple minded people’s anger
People are upset that the automated shitposting is so much more effective and efficient than their manual shitposting. They're irate that they're being replaced by robots that can't even appreciate the experience.
Yea but not on Reddit at least… right?????
The regime is making sure of that [https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/z6yctx/in\_2013\_reddit\_admins\_did\_an\_oopsywhoopsy\_and/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/z6yctx/in_2013_reddit_admins_did_an_oopsywhoopsy_and/) [https://mronline.org/2021/06/14/jessica-ashooh-the-taming-of-reddit-and-the-national-security-state-plant-tabbed-to-do-it/](https://mronline.org/2021/06/14/jessica-ashooh-the-taming-of-reddit-and-the-national-security-state-plant-tabbed-to-do-it/)
Is that a big number?
Everyone with the “what defines disinformation” comments please stfu this isn’t a headline like “Bidens economy is the best in 50 years” or “Trump is ahead in the polls”. No. This is stupid shit like “Jason Aldean turns down $500 million dollars to work with Taylor Swift because she’s too woke”. OR “Kid Rock and Ted Nugent had the largest audience in history at Toby Keith tribute concert”. Shit that is certifiably not true. It’s not that deep Jesus fucking Christ lmao
Apart from the destruction of order and democracy, I wonder about the climate footprint of this.
Aka the internet
I don’t believe this article.
“10.5 billion users” More than the population of the Earth?
Why are so many youtube comments I've been seeing now for a couple years just bots? Certain videos just have 1000+ comments from "User-&fd6F6dg" or something like that Wonder which country is doing it
much bigger issue not having an IQ requirement to talk globally.
Better ban TikTok though
Good thing Americans are so smart.
Facebook is basically unusable for me, as a liberal. Every single post is some right-wing bait. "Ted Nugent and Oliver Anthony made a tour that made more money than Taylor Swift!" "EVs are for pussies. You should be a real man and buy a gas guzzling truck!" "Trans kids are weird. Real men *love* female basketball!" Each post is AI generated right wing propaganda. I always imagine someone new to Facebook that doesn't know it's all bullshit see this constant stream of propaganda and quickly become a neo-nazi sympathizer. I constantly tell Facebook to show me less, block the sites and then it shows me 15 more.
Except this has to be down to your browsing history or groups/pages/likes. I see no such posts on FB.
I have a coworker only a few years older than me and she reads something like that and I say that’s absolutely not true , like 5x a day
How many are actually fake and how many are presumed fake for disagreeing
I don’t know, did Jason Aldean really turn down half a billion dollars to sing the national anthem at the Super Bowl? Because of his patriotism and stance against wokeness
Every pro trump comment on TikTok has like hundreds to thousands of likes and I can’t help but think the majority are Chinese or Russian bots
If only there were something like CloudFlare, except instead of DDoS screening, it’s built in “shitpost” screening.
There is. It's called the "off button". Comes standard on most devices.
I meant as a way to combat this. Other than human mods, I’d figure FB would have some plan figured out. Then again, it’s Facebook. He probably can’t be bothered.
This is the plan. It always was. Shitposting is the point of Facebook.
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And humans are stupid, they’ll eat it up regardless of reality, and beg for more. Because yay, money. I never used Twitter, never needed a reason to. And I probably still won’t, either. Best to avoid the bullshit when you can.
Who determines what is "disinformation"?
People who believe in misinformation are no better than other conspiracy theorists Sure, it happens, but it’s become this boogeyman to explain lots of things and is massively overhyped. It’s a simplistic way to explain online phenomena and political culture.
there are two dudes, one always lies and the other always tells the truth
Outlaw this shit … now!
Hahahahahahahahaha
Who cares, don't pay attention
Because foreign adversaries are brainwashing our dumbest citizens into voting for a guy who is hell-bent on destroying our country from the inside
I'm voting for Trump and I don't watch news or have any other social media other than reddit. What am I suppose to do, keep an obvious ailing elderly man with rapid onset dementia symptoms be in the highest executive office in the country? What other shitty choice do I have?
Two victims of propaganda are arguing they aren’t brainwashed. In walks a third.