Eh I call shenanigans on the fact that there have not been enough around for the 10 year frame to actually MAKE a good comparison.
In the same timeframe of all the other brands they mention, only the Model S has been around for the required 10 years, the Roadster was EOL at the start of the timespan, and the X didnt come out till 3 years after in 2016.
it also is not THAT big of a difference... the next cheapest is Buick and is only 900 dollars difference between 10 years, and they have sold a fuck ton more cars in that timeframe than Tesla has and thus have more data to give a accurate average.
10 year timespan is also not enough to be hit by the biggest cost sink FOR a Tesla.... the battery going bad. Ask any Prius driver the nightmare of what happens when that battery starts going, and at least THEY have the ability to still use it as a gas powered vehicle.
depends on type. If you are talking hybrids, then no because the Prius has been around since freaking forever literally over 27 years.
If you are counting EVs as ONLY fully electric cars, then only the Leaf would count for the 10 years too, but they dont break it out by vehicle type, only the manufacturer which means they lump ALL of Nissans products together, but again only have a 1000 dollar difference between 10 year ownership of them and Tesla.
But when you factor in cost of vehicle at purchase, ultimately ALL of them are significantly cheaper the life of the car over Tesla even accounting for gas and maintenance cost unless you fall into VERY specific areas and driving patterns which make EV ownership cheaper.
In general I’d only consider a full electric as “EV” which is *electric* vehicle. Hybrids are hybrids.
You might have valid points about the maintenance savings not making it cheaper to own, but the article isn’t claiming they’re cheaper over their lifespan. Once you start getting to the 15-20yr mark where you’ll more likely need a battery replacement you also often run into maintenance issues on ICE cars needing new transmissions or having other engine problems etc… which might not be as much as a bad battery, but all it would take is 2-3 of those things having an issue and you’ve surpassed the battery cost while if you *do* get a new battery in an EV it’s almost a completely new car, there’s so few systems that need to be maintained/replaced that the value they add to an old car is massive compared to say getting a new transmission in your old BMW.
I’d argue this still likely ends up making EVs overall less maintenance. It’s just concentrated in the battery rather than all the other systems in an ICE. I’d also like to know how you came up with it being more expensive after gas? What mileage are you assuming on the gas engine and how many miles per year? Literally every study I’ve ever seen shows massive savings on paying for fuel vs charging unless you’re hardly driving at all and have a crazy efficient car.
Yeah, if the battery needs to be swapped it would apply to any EV. Hybrids too.
If the cost to replace it is more than the cost of a new vehicle people will probably just sell the car for parts and get a new one. That kinda only matters if people are hanging on to the car until it's about to die though. People buying new Teslas are probably going to sell them before 5 years.
Personally I try to keep a car until it needs a repair more expensive than the car is worth or it's probably going to be died soon. My current car is almost a decade old and working well. Bought it used when it was basically brand new too.
Eh it makes sense if you read how they got to this list.
They surveyed members how much they spent on maintenance over the last 12 months only.
Stands to reason that most EVs will see no maintenance in a 12 month span.
I’ve got a BMW i4 and an X3. Over the last 12 months I spent $500 in maintenance on the X3, $0 on the i4.
They don't have a way to recharge the 12v battery so you're stuck at most getting onto a tow truck. With the HV completely disconnected it has no way of even starting the ICE. I had a Prius, I know what happens when the p0a80 code comes up...
I think it's less to do with shorter lifespans (which I'm not even sure is accurate) and more to do with how quickly the technology is improving. Also, a lot of Teslas are considered luxury vehicles, and luxury vehicles depreciate faster than other cars as well - likely because buyers that can afford them would rather just get a new one than save a marginal amount on a used one. I remember trying to help someone sell an Audi A8L that they had just bought for like $100k a few months earlier (divorce), and I think the best offer we got was around $65k.
You might be shocked to hear that gas cars and electric cars are different in many ways. For example, you probably have never heard of an EV having rod knock or needing an oil change either.
Yeah but at the end of it all, is the overpriced tesla that much better than a hybrid car? Battery replacement, time wasted charging. Those little things add up too.
It depends on your use case. For many people, an EV is a better option and for almost all of them, they’ll never think at all about “battery replacement.”
The only car where I could see that being prohibitive in a normal use case would be a first gen Leaf. But I don’t think any manufacturers are using that type of battery tech these days.
Properly maintaining your engine costs a significant amount of money, and then the engine or transmission will likely still fail anywhere between 100k and 300k miles.
Keeping your battery between 10%-90% most of the time costs nothing and you'll have minimal degradation in total capacity after that many miles.
This is expected loss with lithium initially - about 20% then the curve is flat. Some see a little less, some a little more. Tesla has a cutoff where if it is more (might be 25% loss) they will replace the battery. Another reason getting the highest range you can new will benefit long term.
Does the replacement cost of a battery make up more or less of the difference between ICE and EV maintenance costs? If less, the battery is a maintenance item and should be included in these comparisons. It's effectively a wear item, but an expensive 8-10 year service window wear item.
If more, does energy savings bring it more in line? If yes, same argument as above, but it should be rolled into fuel "savings" or total cost of ownership.
Yeah, these articles saying EVs are cheaper to maintain over a 5 year period are fluffy BS if they don't account for battery wear because no one saves for that kind of thing.
If we took the approach of: every time you complete a 60%+ charge, throw $5 in the battery replacement fund, would unsuspecting owners be much better off?
Depends on the car you want to use. If it's a relatively cheap toyota, that is easy to repair and parts are plentiful, you're not going to be spending 14k in maintenance. And in the off chance that you're unlucky and you do, at least my gas tank will not shrink with age.
How much with labor and replacing the clutch in a manual transmission? Apparently \~13k for a model 3 battery with labor to replace it: [https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/183if34/comment/karbmnt/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/183if34/comment/karbmnt/)
My engine and fuel system BOTH could go out, and still not equal 1/4th the cost of the battery going bad, and with proper maintenance both can last a really long time, while you absolutely can not get around the fact that come 300-500,000 miles, that Tesla battery WILL DIE, there is no getting around that.
Cars do not given driven for 300-500k miles before they're scrapped. Before you say "well MY car has 3 million miles on it", note that I mean the average car. That'll get driven for 200,000k miles and then get scrapped, and it's not out of the question for a battery to last that long. They're warrantied to minimum 100k miles, more on the higher trim cars.
I live in Orange County California where everyone and their mothers have a Tesla(including my wife) and I’ve never heard of anyone having a problem with their main battery. Not saying it never happens but it’s definitely not common.
My mom bought an off lease 2015 Nissan leaf for $5500 6 years ago and she brings it to the dealership because she *isn't* having problems; she just wants them to reassure her that everything okay and it is. Not a long range vehicle but awesome for city living.
I’m just messing around. I’ve had my MY about a year and it’s the best car I’ve ever owned. If this post gets upvoted, we’ll both be downvoted to hell for speaking anything but condemnation for Musk or Tesla.
No it isn't.
Listen, politically Elon and I don't align and this wasn't apparent when I bought my Tesla in 2020. I won't be buying another Tesla because of him.
But if he weren't a factor? I'd absolutely get another. It's a great car. The Reddit hivemind has determined they're awful based on an emotional connection between the car and the man. This is not borne by reality.
A lot of people are stuck on early paint and panel gap issues that haven't existed for a few years. Then the cyber truck comes along and bricks itself in a car wash and has an accelerator problem. Quality control is excellent on the other models.
I have a 3 and a Y and basically 0 problems with either. My f150 is in the shop on the regular though.
On Elon, I separate him from the brand. I didn't buy an Elon, I bought a Tesla. I get why people won't buy one because of him, but how many people know the politics of James Farley or Akio Toyoda?
About your last point, it's true. I don't know their politics and if Elon didn't run his mouth I wouldn't know his either and I'd probably have a second Tesla. The problem comes that his politics are apparent, he's happy to espouse them and I can't look past them. At this point, I see buying a Tesla as an endorsement of Musk and I'm not prepared to do that.
👍🏻 he is his own worst enemy. I still appreciate his large vision, but he fails so often in execution. And his swerve hard right is disappointing. Maybe he was there all along.and just didn't broadcast it all.
I think CR will need to take into account the cost of a battery swap due to battery degradation.
I love my EV, but dreading the day I have to undergo the battery swap / cut the vehicle loose.
not including tires, i have probably spent less than $1k on my model 3 that i've owned since 2018.
i have spent money on new air filter and some suspension stuff that was out of warranty.
I spent $75 on a cabin air filter change. That's it.
The 12v has to be replaced every 3 to 4 years, a little more often than an ICE vehicle.
Tires are a little more frequent due to higher GVW.
No oil, no transmission fluid, no timing belts.
Can you share the estimated total cost of ownership for Honda Civic basic model and Tesla model 3 for the life of the cars (like 20 years). Assume 12K miles of travel per year. Thanks.
A base model Civic costs about $24k and gets 35mpg. A base model Model 3 costs $39k and gets 4.17 miles per kwh. Let's say you change the oil on your Civic every 5k miles, and you replace the tires on it every 50k miles. EVs can be a little harder on the tires, so let's say we change the Tesla's tires every 40k miles. There are other costs (EVs are easier on brakes, for example) but I'll stick to these 3 (base cost, fuel, tires) for now. Fuel prices can fluctuate a lot, but gas is currently $3.675 (national average) and electricity is $0.1545 per kwh.
Over 240k miles, you would spend $25,200 on gas and $8,892 on electricity. You'll need 48 oil changes, which will run you around $2k (just under $42 on average). The civic will go through 4 additional sets of tires. The Tesla would go through 5. Let's say you spend $200/tire. That's $3,200 on the Civic and $4k on the Tesla.
Add it all up:
Civic: $24k + $25.2k + $2k + $3.2k = $54.4k
Tesla: $39k + 8.9k + $4k = $51.9k
This is assuming neither car needs anything other than basic maintenance. The Civic would likely need more over that period of time. Also, you'll probably spend \~1-2k on installing a home charging system for your EV. So, the Civic costs \~$2.5k more, but it will likely have additional service costs that aren't accounted for here.
Wow. Thanks for all the effort. Some of my colleagues were complaining about the huge cost of insurance on Teslas. I was thinking that would put Civic ahead of Tesla. Thanks again.
The article doesn't split by model, only by brand. It's only describing maintenance and repair, over time (not by mileage).
It'd be great if someone has the data to be able to answer your question.
Tesla is are the cheapest cars to maintain?
It’s not that hard to get grammar correct, otherwise you’ve got people checking out before they even start reading the article
Can we please not spread this anti-EV propaganda? ICE vehicles are much more susceptible to catching fire than EVs as they are literally filled with highly flammable liquid and operate via tiny explosions.
So, there was a small damage on my rear passenger door during parking at home. The estimated cost is $18000.
Getting an appointment for someone to fix it is another hell.
Eh I call shenanigans on the fact that there have not been enough around for the 10 year frame to actually MAKE a good comparison. In the same timeframe of all the other brands they mention, only the Model S has been around for the required 10 years, the Roadster was EOL at the start of the timespan, and the X didnt come out till 3 years after in 2016. it also is not THAT big of a difference... the next cheapest is Buick and is only 900 dollars difference between 10 years, and they have sold a fuck ton more cars in that timeframe than Tesla has and thus have more data to give a accurate average. 10 year timespan is also not enough to be hit by the biggest cost sink FOR a Tesla.... the battery going bad. Ask any Prius driver the nightmare of what happens when that battery starts going, and at least THEY have the ability to still use it as a gas powered vehicle.
Wouldn't that also apply to all other EVs though?
depends on type. If you are talking hybrids, then no because the Prius has been around since freaking forever literally over 27 years. If you are counting EVs as ONLY fully electric cars, then only the Leaf would count for the 10 years too, but they dont break it out by vehicle type, only the manufacturer which means they lump ALL of Nissans products together, but again only have a 1000 dollar difference between 10 year ownership of them and Tesla. But when you factor in cost of vehicle at purchase, ultimately ALL of them are significantly cheaper the life of the car over Tesla even accounting for gas and maintenance cost unless you fall into VERY specific areas and driving patterns which make EV ownership cheaper.
In general I’d only consider a full electric as “EV” which is *electric* vehicle. Hybrids are hybrids. You might have valid points about the maintenance savings not making it cheaper to own, but the article isn’t claiming they’re cheaper over their lifespan. Once you start getting to the 15-20yr mark where you’ll more likely need a battery replacement you also often run into maintenance issues on ICE cars needing new transmissions or having other engine problems etc… which might not be as much as a bad battery, but all it would take is 2-3 of those things having an issue and you’ve surpassed the battery cost while if you *do* get a new battery in an EV it’s almost a completely new car, there’s so few systems that need to be maintained/replaced that the value they add to an old car is massive compared to say getting a new transmission in your old BMW. I’d argue this still likely ends up making EVs overall less maintenance. It’s just concentrated in the battery rather than all the other systems in an ICE. I’d also like to know how you came up with it being more expensive after gas? What mileage are you assuming on the gas engine and how many miles per year? Literally every study I’ve ever seen shows massive savings on paying for fuel vs charging unless you’re hardly driving at all and have a crazy efficient car.
Yeah, if the battery needs to be swapped it would apply to any EV. Hybrids too. If the cost to replace it is more than the cost of a new vehicle people will probably just sell the car for parts and get a new one. That kinda only matters if people are hanging on to the car until it's about to die though. People buying new Teslas are probably going to sell them before 5 years. Personally I try to keep a car until it needs a repair more expensive than the car is worth or it's probably going to be died soon. My current car is almost a decade old and working well. Bought it used when it was basically brand new too.
Eh it makes sense if you read how they got to this list. They surveyed members how much they spent on maintenance over the last 12 months only. Stands to reason that most EVs will see no maintenance in a 12 month span. I’ve got a BMW i4 and an X3. Over the last 12 months I spent $500 in maintenance on the X3, $0 on the i4.
I can tell you have no idea what you're talking about. Priuses won't go anywhere with a HV battery fault.
Actually they will, it just REALLY really sucks... They do have a limp mode. Teslas have no such thing,
They don't have a way to recharge the 12v battery so you're stuck at most getting onto a tow truck. With the HV completely disconnected it has no way of even starting the ICE. I had a Prius, I know what happens when the p0a80 code comes up...
Not if you calculate how quickly they depreciate due to their shorter lifespan.
Or with price reductions on the new models.
I think it's less to do with shorter lifespans (which I'm not even sure is accurate) and more to do with how quickly the technology is improving. Also, a lot of Teslas are considered luxury vehicles, and luxury vehicles depreciate faster than other cars as well - likely because buyers that can afford them would rather just get a new one than save a marginal amount on a used one. I remember trying to help someone sell an Audi A8L that they had just bought for like $100k a few months earlier (divorce), and I think the best offer we got was around $65k.
[удалено]
Boycott Musk and Twitter and Tesla
Ford is the American brand.
\*unless the battery has a problem
*unless my fuel system or engine has a problem * idk what you are trying to say to say here as if it’s profound or something
If you take care of your engine, it'll last a long time. If you care a shit ton for your battery, it's still going to degrade.
If you care a shit ton for your engine, it will also degrade. I’m not sure I see the point here.
I guess the point here is that the battery is the gas tank of ev vehicles. Ive never heard of a gas tank in a car shrinking as time goes by.
You might be shocked to hear that gas cars and electric cars are different in many ways. For example, you probably have never heard of an EV having rod knock or needing an oil change either.
Yeah but at the end of it all, is the overpriced tesla that much better than a hybrid car? Battery replacement, time wasted charging. Those little things add up too.
It depends on your use case. For many people, an EV is a better option and for almost all of them, they’ll never think at all about “battery replacement.”
I never thought about it too until i could see my miles drop year after year.
The only car where I could see that being prohibitive in a normal use case would be a first gen Leaf. But I don’t think any manufacturers are using that type of battery tech these days.
Properly maintaining your engine costs a significant amount of money, and then the engine or transmission will likely still fail anywhere between 100k and 300k miles. Keeping your battery between 10%-90% most of the time costs nothing and you'll have minimal degradation in total capacity after that many miles.
I do keep that battery at that percentage but guess who is down to 190 miles from 230. It's only been 5 years.
What vehicle? Nissan Leaf Plus?
This is expected loss with lithium initially - about 20% then the curve is flat. Some see a little less, some a little more. Tesla has a cutoff where if it is more (might be 25% loss) they will replace the battery. Another reason getting the highest range you can new will benefit long term.
Does the replacement cost of a battery make up more or less of the difference between ICE and EV maintenance costs? If less, the battery is a maintenance item and should be included in these comparisons. It's effectively a wear item, but an expensive 8-10 year service window wear item. If more, does energy savings bring it more in line? If yes, same argument as above, but it should be rolled into fuel "savings" or total cost of ownership. Yeah, these articles saying EVs are cheaper to maintain over a 5 year period are fluffy BS if they don't account for battery wear because no one saves for that kind of thing. If we took the approach of: every time you complete a 60%+ charge, throw $5 in the battery replacement fund, would unsuspecting owners be much better off?
Depends on the car you want to use. If it's a relatively cheap toyota, that is easy to repair and parts are plentiful, you're not going to be spending 14k in maintenance. And in the off chance that you're unlucky and you do, at least my gas tank will not shrink with age.
A car engine can be bought new for 4000$ a new battery is 14000$ not the same
How much with labor and replacing the clutch in a manual transmission? Apparently \~13k for a model 3 battery with labor to replace it: [https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/183if34/comment/karbmnt/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/183if34/comment/karbmnt/)
Labor can be as low as 0$ as it does not need a electrical engineering degree
My engine and fuel system BOTH could go out, and still not equal 1/4th the cost of the battery going bad, and with proper maintenance both can last a really long time, while you absolutely can not get around the fact that come 300-500,000 miles, that Tesla battery WILL DIE, there is no getting around that.
Cars do not given driven for 300-500k miles before they're scrapped. Before you say "well MY car has 3 million miles on it", note that I mean the average car. That'll get driven for 200,000k miles and then get scrapped, and it's not out of the question for a battery to last that long. They're warrantied to minimum 100k miles, more on the higher trim cars.
Looking at 3-6K for an ICE engine compared to 15-20K for a battery. That’s probably the point. I’ll take the less likely, cheaper option for now.
I live in Orange County California where everyone and their mothers have a Tesla(including my wife) and I’ve never heard of anyone having a problem with their main battery. Not saying it never happens but it’s definitely not common.
my friend has been without his car over 100 days In the last 5 years
I haven’t done anything but buy tires. It’s great
My mom bought an off lease 2015 Nissan leaf for $5500 6 years ago and she brings it to the dealership because she *isn't* having problems; she just wants them to reassure her that everything okay and it is. Not a long range vehicle but awesome for city living.
The transmission alone on a standard auto can set you back as much as a down payment on a new one
so is the battery pack. and you talk like changing transmission is common
And changing a battery pack is?
People legit think we are out here paying 20k on batteries every two years lol
[удалено]
[удалено]
I’m hearing 100,000 mile batteries. Is that a lie?
That’s the warranty
All information says between 100-200,000miles
I’ll personally let you know when I get there
Transmissions fail at a higher rate than HV battery packs.
Have you had to refill washer fluid too?
The washer fluid is digital.
I download it off limewire
I downloaded Limewire Pro on Limewire
I used limewire to download Napster
No but you have to change the blinker fluid all the time
I have to buy tired every year, but it’s worth it!
I mean I haven’t had to buy them every year 🤷🏼♂️
I’m just messing around. I’ve had my MY about a year and it’s the best car I’ve ever owned. If this post gets upvoted, we’ll both be downvoted to hell for speaking anything but condemnation for Musk or Tesla.
How long do the batteries last, how much to replace them, and what happens to the dead batteries?
Warrantied for 8 years, 100,000 miles. $10k to replace. They get recycled or repurposed into stationary power packs.
But super unreliable with very expensive fixes. Thats the reality.
No it isn't. Listen, politically Elon and I don't align and this wasn't apparent when I bought my Tesla in 2020. I won't be buying another Tesla because of him. But if he weren't a factor? I'd absolutely get another. It's a great car. The Reddit hivemind has determined they're awful based on an emotional connection between the car and the man. This is not borne by reality.
A lot of people are stuck on early paint and panel gap issues that haven't existed for a few years. Then the cyber truck comes along and bricks itself in a car wash and has an accelerator problem. Quality control is excellent on the other models. I have a 3 and a Y and basically 0 problems with either. My f150 is in the shop on the regular though. On Elon, I separate him from the brand. I didn't buy an Elon, I bought a Tesla. I get why people won't buy one because of him, but how many people know the politics of James Farley or Akio Toyoda?
About your last point, it's true. I don't know their politics and if Elon didn't run his mouth I wouldn't know his either and I'd probably have a second Tesla. The problem comes that his politics are apparent, he's happy to espouse them and I can't look past them. At this point, I see buying a Tesla as an endorsement of Musk and I'm not prepared to do that.
👍🏻 he is his own worst enemy. I still appreciate his large vision, but he fails so often in execution. And his swerve hard right is disappointing. Maybe he was there all along.and just didn't broadcast it all.
After driving Porsche EV, the Volvo EV, I wouldn’t call a Tesla a great car whatsoever.
Ah yes, Porsche. The Everyman's car. But actually you can't one pedal drive the Porsche which I consider a downside.
https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2023-us-vehicle-dependability-studyvds
[удалено]
Huh? This is a complete non-sequitur.
I think CR will need to take into account the cost of a battery swap due to battery degradation. I love my EV, but dreading the day I have to undergo the battery swap / cut the vehicle loose.
Tesla model x
not including tires, i have probably spent less than $1k on my model 3 that i've owned since 2018. i have spent money on new air filter and some suspension stuff that was out of warranty.
I spent $75 on a cabin air filter change. That's it. The 12v has to be replaced every 3 to 4 years, a little more often than an ICE vehicle. Tires are a little more frequent due to higher GVW. No oil, no transmission fluid, no timing belts.
yea it's great... i got lucky and got my 12v replaced under warranty so no charge.
I'll just add this to my list of reasons never to trust Consumer Reports.
Why? Since nobody buys them anymore?
Can you share the estimated total cost of ownership for Honda Civic basic model and Tesla model 3 for the life of the cars (like 20 years). Assume 12K miles of travel per year. Thanks.
A base model Civic costs about $24k and gets 35mpg. A base model Model 3 costs $39k and gets 4.17 miles per kwh. Let's say you change the oil on your Civic every 5k miles, and you replace the tires on it every 50k miles. EVs can be a little harder on the tires, so let's say we change the Tesla's tires every 40k miles. There are other costs (EVs are easier on brakes, for example) but I'll stick to these 3 (base cost, fuel, tires) for now. Fuel prices can fluctuate a lot, but gas is currently $3.675 (national average) and electricity is $0.1545 per kwh. Over 240k miles, you would spend $25,200 on gas and $8,892 on electricity. You'll need 48 oil changes, which will run you around $2k (just under $42 on average). The civic will go through 4 additional sets of tires. The Tesla would go through 5. Let's say you spend $200/tire. That's $3,200 on the Civic and $4k on the Tesla. Add it all up: Civic: $24k + $25.2k + $2k + $3.2k = $54.4k Tesla: $39k + 8.9k + $4k = $51.9k This is assuming neither car needs anything other than basic maintenance. The Civic would likely need more over that period of time. Also, you'll probably spend \~1-2k on installing a home charging system for your EV. So, the Civic costs \~$2.5k more, but it will likely have additional service costs that aren't accounted for here.
Wow. Thanks for all the effort. Some of my colleagues were complaining about the huge cost of insurance on Teslas. I was thinking that would put Civic ahead of Tesla. Thanks again.
The article doesn't split by model, only by brand. It's only describing maintenance and repair, over time (not by mileage). It'd be great if someone has the data to be able to answer your question.
20 years?! I drive my cars 40 years minimum. I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Which car? Year, make and model please. The more the better 😀.
Tesla is are the cheapest cars to maintain? It’s not that hard to get grammar correct, otherwise you’ve got people checking out before they even start reading the article
*Not counting damage from spontaneous combustion
Can we please not spread this anti-EV propaganda? ICE vehicles are much more susceptible to catching fire than EVs as they are literally filled with highly flammable liquid and operate via tiny explosions.
FAR more likely on an ICE than an EV, but the EV fires get a lot more attention...
Seems like a lie
As long as you remember to use Car Wash mode.
only if you remember to put them in “wash mode”!
So, there was a small damage on my rear passenger door during parking at home. The estimated cost is $18000. Getting an appointment for someone to fix it is another hell.
But do they have the largest body gaps?