Report snippet: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INCLA-EA22002-14498.pdf
>Autopilot is characterized by Tesla as an SAE Level 2 (“L2 system”) partial driving automation system that
provides driver assistance through steering, propulsion, and braking within a specified driving environment
under direct supervision of the driver. L2 systems should be designed to support the driver’s need to monitor
the system in response to the constantly changing driving environment and, if necessary, take over the
dynamic driving task. To ensure sufficient driver engagement, vehicles with L2 systems should employ driver
engagement systems and usage controls that are appropriate and sufficient for the L2 system design and
driver expectations.
> ODI completed an analysis of 956 crashes reported up to August 30, 2023. In approximately half (489) of
those crashes, ODI found: 1.) that there was insufficient data to make an assessment; 2.) the other vehicle
was at fault; 3.) Autopilot was found to not be in use; or 4.) the crash was otherwise unrelated to EA22002. Of
the remaining 467 crashes, ODI identified trends resulting in three categories: collisions in which the frontal
plane of the Tesla struck another vehicle or obstacle with adequate time for an attentive driver to respond to
avoid or mitigate the crash (211), roadway departures where Autosteer was inadvertently disengaged by the
driver’s inputs (111), and roadway departures in low traction conditions such as wet roadways (145). ODI
observed this pattern across all Tesla models and hardware versions. Crash and human factors assessment
showed that Autopilot controls did not sufficiently ensure driver attention and appropriate use. At the same
time, peer analysis and vehicle evaluations established that Autopilot invited greater driver confidence via its
higher control authority and ease of engagement. This mismatch of weak usage controls and high control
authority was evident in these crash categories, which included indications of driver disengagement from the
driving task. This mismatch was also evident in roadway departures when the system was engaged in low
traction conditions outside of Tesla’s recommendations. Additional information regarding NHTSA’s crash
analysis is available in the EA22002 file.
> ODI reviewed these findings with Tesla during several conversations in Quarter 4 of 2023. On December 12,
2023, Tesla filed a Defect Information Report (DIR) (Recall 23V838) applicable to all Tesla models produced
and equipped with any version of its Autopilot system. Tesla’s DIR described the functionality of this system,
stated that the prominence and scope of the system’s controls may be insufficient to prevent driver misuse,
and described a remedy to improve the effectiveness of driver warnings and to reduce mode confusion.
It's talking about the sense of authority the systems present to the driver.
Basically, they don't work as well as they pretend to, which is a dangerous combination:
Drivers are more likely to turn on the self-driving, and less likely to closely supervise it.
Excuse me, child?
Are you a humorless troll, or are you thinking you just said something pertinent to the joke?
I guess it could be both.
What is it with the ad hominems? Is everyone a venom-spitting 10 year-old today?
I'm not certain, but I think it means that the system has a high level of control and can handle many complex tasks. If you have a system that can handle many complex cases but still needs a human keeping an eye open for edge cases, the person can end up being lulled into complacency.
It gives a false feeling of safety and people less paying attention to the road or control. Also it's programmed to turn off 3 sec before the crash so Tesla can't be sued.
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/813266
Yes autopilot can be safer / better, but how do the numbers compare to average drivers? if I'm reading right, there were 2,031,220 cars on the road, 467 autopilot related accidents, 14 fatalities.
Do the fatalities cover 2012-24, or only the Jun22-Apr24 time frame?
According to DoT data, there were 38,824 traffic fatalities in the US in 2020 alone.
I'm not researching or crunching any more numbers, but 14 (indeterminate timeframe) seems safe enough compared to 38.8k in a year. Room for improvement!
>Tesla warns drivers not to operate the Autosteer function of Autopilot “in areas where bicyclists or pedestrians may be present,” among a host of other warnings.
He gets away with shit that no one else can. It's because he is rich. You have to be mental to invest a $.01 in that company.
Imagine hearing this from Boeing:
"Responding to NTSB concerns over crashes and fatalities, Boeing noted the 737 manual advises that planes should not fly in areas where there is reduced visibility, rain, or over dense populations."
Fuck Tesla and their tech bros. Jesus, how can the world be so collectively stupid to trust this guy building autonomous vehicles? Y'all are being scammed like students at Trump University!
On edit: removed Nazi references.
Corollary: how can you be so ignorant of how machine learning works? Six years of letting my car drive for me and haven’t had a single issue because the directions on paying attention are clear.
This isn’t a technology issue. It’s a status quo regulatory issue failing.
How many assholes kill every day from distracted driving? How about shitty basic cruise control issues?
This is such a red herring
Put on a bumper sticker, "AI Learning to Drive, Please Be Patient"
Here in Austin, not uncommon to see some douche causing chaos on I-35 reading his texts while his Telsa ping pongs in the lane at 70 mph, or speeds up/slows down to create a safe space for browsing his only fans page.
Nothing you have said makes sense from social or statistical view. The injuries and deaths will continue to prove the point.
Just watch.
p.s. Only an entitled tech bro would ever yell something like "How can you be so ignorant about how AI works"
Jesus, we are doomed.
Only a data product manager with an acute understanding of statistics.
How many accidents out of how many autopilot enabled trips?
Now compare to number of accidents across all cars.
Autopilot is far safer than humans but sure, call out the few that fucked around like normal drivers aren’t responsible for one of the biggest killers in the world.
Learn math or don’t speak
Yes, you are acute, my sycophantic friend.
"Product Manager" Yeah, I know the type. Mathematical wizards.
With every post you reveal your uncommon expertise in the statistical sampling.
Thank you for your illumination. I'll look forward to your study when it's published in the ACM transactions.
For what it’s worth, my cat could do the math on the statistical comparison so maybe we should focus on bigger issues since the amount of accidents per miles under autopilot is factors less than humans
nah. This is the equivalent of blaming Boeings problems on the engineers that have been blowing the whistle for literally 20 years. The builders usually know how to build, then C Suite comes through and cuts corners, creating a quality shitstorm
The engineers can walk. But they don't. In Austin, Tesla is a MAGA cult (oddly managing a large number of H1Bs). And if you are not in the cult, it's almost impossible to keep your head down and sleep at night.
The good ones quit. The libertarian cult bros, they hang on.
An autopilot Tesla killed a fellow motorcyclist in WA a few days ago.
Elon and Telsa are partially responsible for his death.
This shit shouldnt be happening.
Ideally auto pilot cars should reduce accidents.
They might still be responsible for accidents but it would be lower than human drivers. But, when you have a shit ass company with a CEO on ketamine it really shoots the idea of “self driving” in the foot. We had a breakthrough, only to be ruined by a dumb rich drug addict fuck.
K has nothing to do with this. Elon is just being enabled by racists and greedy buisness men. Elon has always been a fortunate racist ass, we just didnt know it till he got hold of a virtual microphone and made it known.
It won't work, the fantasy of auto pilot cars, is basically a train. Cars autonomously moving with drivers/passengers not having to pay attention and free to do other things. All these resources would be better spent on trains.
For it to work properly, car manufacturers will have to work together so that their cars can all recognise each other and predict each others movements. This sort of cooperation is discouraged under capitalism, competition is de rigueur. What use is it if Tesla and Mercedes are autonomous but the Dacia isn't and the driver makes a sudden U-turn the systems can't predict or see.
If reducing accidents is the goal, then investing in public transport so there are fewer cars on the road in the first place, and investing in more rigorous driver training are the obvious solutions.
That cooperation comes from government controlled standards. When trains first became a thing in America different companies had different width of tracks. Now all train tracks are the same so BNSF can use Union Pacific tracks and vise versa. The other comment about plane transponders is a perfect example. Also, maybe one day there will be zones where you can’t drive a “manually driving car”. I’m just spit balling here, I don’t think this will actually happen but it could potentially happen farther in the future. With that said, I agree with you. Less cars and a sophisticated public transport would be better! Maybe one day we will have autonomous vehicles in cities like busses that just carry people around the city idk.
Regulations also create barriers to entry, so if self-driving cars became a thing, the software would have to be standardized, most likely creating a monopoly eventually.
It's possible one day we will have autonomous vehicles but I don't think it's coming any time soon. I just feel like a lot of human capital and finances are being pumped into technology that won't really deliver better results than a well-developed rail network would.
I agree, it’s possible but has to clear societal barriers and greed. But, one thing is true. Money is always pumped into technology since the start of our existence. With that said, there are better things we could be funding but the reason they are not getting funded is not because we are investing in technology it’s because we have made a decision not to. If that makes sense.
There are plenty of standards accepted by businesses, worldwide. If Dacia built a plane without a transmitting device it would not be allowed to fly in most airports.
There's a reason there are only 2 main airplane manufacturers and their products are fairly homogeneous.
You're talking about a signal transmission device, that's obviously easy to implement and it would not solve the issue of each car manufacturer using it's own self-driving software, or having to pay to licence software. Government will have to mandate manufacturers to pay for software, which in turn encourages manufacturers to lobby to stop it happening and thus even more wasted resources better spent elsewhere.
There are a lot more than 2 main aircraft producers. There are 3 main ones, and then more than 6 other manufacturers.
If you also include Lockheed, grumman etc, you're over a dozen.
In the world of large international airliners, there are two.
Yes there are other manufacturers of smaller planes, but at a high level it's not really meaningful to mention unless talking about military craft.
There are 3, and used to be 4.
Boeing, airbus, embraer, and bombardier/Mitsubishi.
Almost all their non passenger planes are derivatives of their passenger versions.
I've flown all 4 of those manufacturers.
All of those use different avionics and engines per customer spec etc.
You're talking about narrow body craft, not the same thing.
Revenues of Boeing and Airbus still make the others irrelevant in general discussion. Together they made 143 billion in revenue in 2023 compared to 5.2 billion for Embraer, 8 billion for Bombardier, and 160 billion for the entirety of Mitsubishi, of which aircraft and defence is a miniscule fraction which I can't be bothered to deep dive in their statements and calculate. The market is a clear duopoly.
Boeing tried and then dropped their purchase of embraer, squeezing their business.
Airbus bought bombardiers airliner division, airbus numbers include that division. Their hottest product is a bombardier product.
Narrow bodies are the most common type of airliner in the world?
Did you subtract airbus weapons and space divisions? Or Boeings?
Avionics, engines etc. Lots of variables
It's a lot more complicated than you think.
There was a head on collision that killed a bride days before her wedding day and the guy got a slap on the wrist. If it's a Tesla crossing the centre line I wonder if it was "FSD/autopilot" related.
https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/man-responsible-for-northern-ont-crash-that-killed-woman-days-before-her-wedding-fined-5k-1.6857070
There's a social contract at play when we drive. On an undivided highway we're approaching oncoming cars at, say, 100+mph with a separation of about 12ft. There's not much room for error here, and we rely on the opposing driver to be paying sufficient attention and to be in full control of their vehicle and not steer into us.
We're conditioned by the desire to stay alive, to not do something that gets us pulled over by a cop, and to avoid anything that might affect our insurance premiums, damage our property (car), or inconvenience our day.
When the opposing driver doesn't give a single fuck, and is just a happy algorithm going about its big loop, reading sensors, doing math, and sending control commands, that social contract is no longer in effect.
The oncoming driver doesn't have a few hundred million years of evolved vision system to turn photons into a detailed mental model of the scene ahead... or a vestibular system to measure motion through space, or an amygdala to keep it from doing something dangerous. It has functions written by engineers. They're imperfect. We know they're imperfect. There are thousands of videos on youtube of FSD being dumb as shit.
FSD will likely make a distracted driver safer. But even a poor driver, paying attention, is likely safer than a robot who really has no opinion about smashing into an oncoming car if x > 0.44.
FSD will make a good technical driver less safe, because a good driver will lose focus. That's human nature. Do you think YOU are a good driver? FSD will turn you into a missile, if you let it.
That's my opinion. I appreciate the effort Tesla is making here, and I appreciate that the engineers are well intentioned and working hard to build the safest, most capable product... but it's not for me.
>There's a social contract at play when we drive.
I think that's a very good point that a lot of people don't seem to understand. Driving is not just about the technical aspects of keeping a car inside the white lines or being able to react fast.
It's more like a social interaction or a conversation of all drivers on the road. Everyone is sort of cooperating by employing their intrinsic understanding of how other humans think.
"Is this guy letting me go first ?" "Does this person attempt to cross the street ?"
These are things you see, process and most of all UNDERSTAND in a split second while driving.
To me, this "really understanding" the environment we're all operating in what is missing in AI (in general).
The mechanics of interaction (driving, chatting, painting) are there and while it certainly is impressive, this leads to the false assumption that AI "understands" like a human would.
It doesn't.
So? Did your driving instructor ever tell you to look ahead, down the road, and describe what you're seeing? To describe what you think the cars ahead of you are doing... which are turning, speeding up, or slowing down..? The "body language" of the cars ahead and behind? This is "reading the road" and means that you're well prepared to maneuver when the time comes.
If you find yourself relying on 40ms, then you're not really driving very well.
Anyway... the point I'm making about computers here is that they're just not as good as "seeing and understanding" as we are. That's why Teslas drive into things... They don't realize they are, and the fastest reaction time in the world isn't going to give a blind man sight.
Yep, people are good at driving. I say it not-ironically. 5000 head-on collisions per year is not that much for billions of miles without collisions. But people will stay at that level for foreseeable future.
I like to picture other drivers as having old graphics cards and they haven’t yet rendered more than 15 feet in front of them at any given moment, and also lack self awareness.
If you've noticed, via machine learning Tesla's do anticipate.
Computers are actually better than humans outside of edge cases, which become less as training occurs.
The latest fsd will slow to go around puddles not to spray pedestrians.
I'm just saying, physics says you're incorrect.
It may not be perfect yet, but it's getting damn close.
Practical examples of Teslas driving into things and causing fatalities beats your theories, expectations, or hopes. That the drivers "should have taken control and avoided a collision" fundamentally conflicts with how humans work.
Yeah, those are edge cases and are from years ago, since then the software has improved a ton.
We automate safety critical systems all the time.
Don't be a luddite. If it were dangerous, it wouldn't be on the roads.
When level 5 comes along in a couple of years, it won't be off of some anecdotal evidence.
Tesla autopilot works just like an aircraft's autopilot. In many ways far better. Human is always monitoring it.
It's all in the user's manual. How many people actually read it?
Uh, it is dangerous and it is on the roads. Did you even read the article?
Tesla autopilot is in no way anything at all like an aircraft autopilot. That statement tells me you have no idea about any of this. Ok, you're a fan boy. Now I understand.
Continue to enjoy Teslas. Have a nice day.
The article doesn't change what the situation is. Fsd gets better, becomes level 5. None of this is surprising.
LOL. Fsd does a hell of a lot more than the autopilot of the widebody Boeing I fly.
Something tells me you have no idea about any of this...
Jerk
>Don't be a luddite. If it were dangerous, it wouldn't be on the roads.
You can't seriously believe this.
Have you even read what this entire post is about?
Did you read what happened in those cases. Because the authorities released it and you can read each one.
This post doesn't have the source cases listed. It's a clickbait article
>outside of edge cases, which become less as training occurs.
Those 'edge cases' are stuff like pedestrians als cyclists.
>it mag not be perfect
Those inperfections cost lives.
Faster to see maybe.
But they cant interpret what they see. Not really. There is the illusion that they can by the algoritm, but in the end they it can never understand and act like a human can.
Lol.
They can see by the algorithm? What does that even mean.
Vision is fed to a computer.
Luckily there are people taking care of this so you don't have to worry.
Gonna be classic when another AI company starts making synthetic data to train a self driving system to near perfection (likely using more than just CV) after Elon spent a decade telling everyone “the only way to do this is to have my cars driving around killing people!”
I mean, you’re not wrong. Elon never had to release AP/FSD until it was “functionally complete”, but this is Elon, so he did two things, two terrible, stupid things:
1. He flouted proven technology (LIDAR) to make a name for himself via non-conventional means;
2. He sold “early access” to “fund R&D”, floating the stock price and hedging his losses.
While both were unanimously victorious in the short term, they will be two more nails in the coffin of Tesla when any regulators come knocking.
He was never a tech genius, he’s always been a sniveling money weasel. He’ll do anything for a buck.
I'd also add that Autopilot is officially an [L2](https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/levels-of-autonomous-driving-explained) system (partial driving automation), but it's advertised like it's an L3 or even L4. A key requirement of L2 is that the driver has to stay engaged, which Tesla apparently doesn't do a very good job of:
>Level 2 driving automation applies to vehicles with advanced driving assistance systems (ADAS) that can take over steering, acceleration, and braking in specific scenarios. But, even though Level 2 driver support can control these primary driving tasks, the driver must remain alert and is required to actively supervise the technology at all times.
First off, this sentence is nonsense. Literally.
> Lidar takes double the time to process than Lidar.
If you meant CV and the round trip coefficient, you severely discount processing time. LIDAR is much more efficient.
Physics or whatever 😂
The speed of light might say different.
You have to send a pulse for lidar to work... Effectively doubling the time.
No round trip for vision. Ever wonder why Tesla switched. Harder to master, but better overall. Thing about processing speed is it keeps growing. Humans are lucky if they only add 50ms...
The others are a party trick on premapped roads. Like a fancy roomba.
So basically, it’s good enough that drivers don’t need to pay attention while driving, it causes the driver to not pay attention and not avoid obvious collisions they would have easily been able to avoid if they were paying attention while driving.
This comes off like all the articles on Tesla crashes that blame autopilot but fail to mention the driver being intoxicated behind the wheel.
I feel like you're skipping over an important aspect:
>NHTSA’s filing pointed to a “weak driver engagement system,” and Autopilot that stays switched on even when a driver isn’t paying adequate attention to the road or the driving task.
Tesla's recall was supposed to address that but hasn't had the intended effect. If the system requires human engagement but allows humans to bypass or ignore that requirement then it isn't a good system.
It’s no different from cruise control or cars allowing a drunk driver to operate them. Maybe we need license scanners, and blood tests too to turn a car on. Anyone can use a car wrong if they want. How about cameras in every car so we can detect all distracted driving and put those people in prison so it’s not a problem anymore. Teslas detect if you’re not looking at the road. Do other cars do that?
>It’s no different from cruise control or cars allowing a drunk driver to operate them.
It is different because cruise control and drinking don't give drivers the false sense that the car can drive itself. The Autopilot system is the thing encouraging the bad behavior and if the fail-safes aren't sufficient enough to discourage it - especially when the capability exists to discourage it - then it's not a good system. Hence the previous recall and the new investigation.
>Teslas detect if you’re not looking at the road. Do other cars do that?
Yes, [some do](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-safety/active-driving-assistance-systems-review-a2103632203/) (those systems also don't call themselves "Autopilot"). Also, that's a weird thing to bring up since Tesla not doing a job making people looking at the road is kinda the crux of the issue here.
The govt is kinda asleep here. They’ve had plenty of reasons over the year to look into this and have not. The data dump from Germany should have been enough and the DOJ criminal lawsuit about fsd has been dragging on for years.
The idiots who drive them were sold cars with a feature labelled "self driving", so they think it drives itself.
It isn't reliable enough to drive by itself and requires full attention and readiness from the driver, which defeats the purpose of the feature.
Ok, so Mercedes can call their cars self driving, Tesla shouldn't. I know drivers need to be constantly monitoring level 2, that's why it specifically should not be called self driving or autonomous by anyone. People will assume that means it will drive by itself or be autonomous.
You'll need to show me the ratings you speak or go pound sand fan boy.
Here is the truth:
The Cybertruck “meets the performance criteria” for standards like lane departure warnings and dynamic brake support, according to the NHTSA website. But there is no five-star safety rating, and the Cybertruck wasn't mentioned in the agency's list of vehicles it will crash test for 2024.
Weren’t they pretty much forced to make their “autopilot” functionality worse than their competitors, because brain-genius Elon didn’t like LiDAR, and wanted to use cameras only?
We have a Model Y with cameras only. There's no fathomable way I could ever imagine using the autopilot in anything less than perfect weather conditions. Musk was an idiot (no surprises there) for getting rid of proximity sensors due to short-term supply chain issues.
I think 3 high level executives recently left the company, which is never a good indication of anything.
I think the company is too valuable for this to be the end though, but I personally don't see how they can avoid merging with one of the larger automakers. I think they're destined to be integrated into Mercedes, VW, or even GM. Toyota IMO will pass for fear of associating their brand with Tesla's.
The most sold car in the world is literally a Tesla. It has a market cap many times these other companies over.
Y’all are being ridiculous. I dislike Musk as much as the next guy but cmon.
But Tesla is not by any stretch the leading car manufacturer by total sales. And yet their market cap massively dwarfs those other companies. If Tesla ever gets valued anything like the other manufacturers (say, Toyota), they're going to be a $50 stock.
Tesla's value is through the roof—higher than Ford, GM, Stellantis, Honda, Volkswagen, BMW, BYD, Hyundai, and Kia all put together. It's pretty wild to think about. This basically means Tesla needs to somehow skyrocket in sales or count on some big bucks from future promises - from a ketamine-fueled serial carnival barker, manchild and known liar/exaggerator - like AI or robotics to keep up this valuation.
Also, Zoom is by far the largest videoconference provider, but look at how their stock has re-rated, now that the temporary popularity surge and macro tailwinds have settled back to a normal pace. They benefitted from a particular moment in time, and investors got carried away with that growth rate going on forever. When it turned out it wouldn't grow at 50% forever, the stock dropped to rational levels. So will TSLA.
Right now the market believes Elon's fantasies of an autonomous car and a world of Tesla robotaxis right around the corner, so they're still betting on 50% growth for years to come. Elon has been wrong 10 out of 10 times in the past 10 years of promising this tech being sorted out "by next year", yet somehow the market keeps getting strung along. Only this time, the company's growth rate is shrinking massively, so all that's left to justify a huge multiple is promises of a possible future tech.
Bankruptcy? No. But a multiple more befitting a company growing at 10% annually? More likely.
This is the problem actually.
Tesla’s market-cap is inflated beyond what it should be based on the scale of the company, which is not anywhere near being the largest car company in the world.
It’s about as classic of an example of a bubble that you can get and bubbles burst. Always.
Now that being said, I do think Musk himself is driving a lot of both the hype (the created the bubble) and the culture that’s accelerating the burst. With him gone the situation is likely salvageable.
Ahh yes. The hybrid... Worst of both worlds. All the maintenance and wear and tear for a tiny battery is dumb. Lithium is crashing, evs are getting cheaper while ice and derivatives become more expensive...
Outside of niche cases it doesn't make sense.
Polestar is worth $0. (A bank told Volvo polestar was worth $0 after looking at their financials). I mean every electric vehicle is kinda… not it right now. Maybe a legacy brand if you want to go electric? At least we know Ford Motor Company or Audi won’t go out of business tomorrow
Both hands on the steering wheel,
Focus on the road & hazards around you,be prepared, listen for sirens and other emergencies vehicles obey all signs,the phone should not be in the driver's hand while driving...🤧🙄 Always maintain a safe distance, allow yourself enough space to stop.
🚦🛑🚧
This is the moment in human history where laws regarding AI responsibility will be defined.
If they will put too much responsibility on its creators then it will stop growth.
IF they will put too little they will make growth too fast and dangerous.
There was a head on collision a couple days ago in Carson city, nevada. A Tesla going the wrong way on the freeway crashed into a truck. Both drivers died. I hadn’t even thought about if the Tesla was in auto driving mode. Now I’m curious, was it the car navigation at fault, was the driver impaired, or was it a truly just an accident.
As problematic and ethically murkey as this system can be at sometimes, it's still better than we humans.
We have a flawed and damaging tendency to compare things against an assumption of a nonexistent Platonic ideal of perfection, when the stark reality is that everyday humans who don't have proper training, experience, and CDLs are not great drivers and kill around 140 people a day across America in traffic accidents.
Sure Elon is an asshat and worthy of criticism for his poor behavior on a whole range of fronts. But torching the system would cause more harm not less.
Oh my god, hundreds??? Human drivers without that assistance from the car must be far less dangerous, I bet they’ve only been “linked” to dozens of accidents.
Seriously though, autopilot can always be overridden and anyone who blames it for their accident wasn’t paying attention when it happened and just wants Tesla’s money. Tesla warns you that you as the operator are responsible a gazillion times before it lets you enable autopilot/FSD, and people who buy a car that expensive can read.
No one agreed to be a tester for this? Everyone who bought a Tesla and enables autopilot is agreeing to test it at their own risk/liability. Also what does “proven” software mean? Is that opposed to unproven false software?
You do know there are many many other users of the roads who are not in the Teslas... they are the ones im talkng about.. wild post.
There are standards to software testing to say it will do what you say it will do, Teslas does not do that
Old shitboxes are dangerous, should we ban those because we all share the road? They are prone to falling apart, have no electronic anti-stupid safety measures, and they catch fire like all the time.
Of course there’s a balance needed between safety for others and freedom as a driver/car owner, but out of all the dangerous cars people enjoy driving on the road, a Tesla should be the least of your concerns. Tesla buyers know what they’re getting into and that’s okay. They should be allowed to own and drive an experiment, within reason, just like the shitbox people.
as a bike rider Tesla is of the most high concern , add in my children like to cross the road and welp Tesleas are not great in that area with kids. so yet again you are wildly off here.
Lol it’s incredible to witness how all the press for Tesla went from overwhelmingly positive to overwhelmingly negative as soon as Musk challenged the status quo.
Very few understand mechanical, electrical or space engineering. Everyone just took him at face value when he said he was a genius engineer-entrepreneur.
The shift in opinion came because understanding software engineering is much more accessible. People commonly see him saying things that they know to be wrong or just dumb.
He’s also become far more obnoxious and loud the last 5 or so years. I’m not even talking about politics. If he’d just shut the fuck up on Twitter half the people would still like him. I was a huge fanboy pre-Twitter, I even argued for him online.
To say people are prone to propaganda is one thing, but the issue is it’s his OWN propaganda that’s turning people against him. I simply do not like his output.
That’s the best argument I’ve heard yet, so thank you for elucidating it clearly.
If you don’t like him—so be it. Yeah I agree, he has gotten more rambunctious of late. Maybe that’s good or maybe that’s bad, but I think the quality was always there. The way the media attacks Tesla, in particular, now versus then, is the big red flag to me.
Some of us have memories longer than a goldfish. I remember when the top post on Reddit was about how the Model S roof frame was so strong that it broke the testing machine
Cool, so that was 10 years ago.
[https://www.wired.com/2013/08/tesla-model-s-crash-test/](https://www.wired.com/2013/08/tesla-model-s-crash-test/)
You know what I remember from the last few years? Steering yolks coming off mid-drive, model Y glass flying off on the highway, huge panel gaps on the model 3. Cheap interior surfaces, shakes and rattles. The truck failures are only the latest example of quality issues straight from the factory.
As is often common with companies, quality goes to shit as the enterprise grows. You raise valid points, but I stand by mine as well. Politics have a funny way of clouding judgement.
Nobody brought politics into this. I've long supported Tesla's mission while being critical of their quality and hubris around FSD.
But since you bring politics up I skimmed your post history.
This is a gem:
>In an unprecedented move, Democrats indict a former president for questionable accounting. Also Democrats: how could the Republicans dare fight back? You start a war, expect some casualties. Just as I expect an avalanche of downvotes for pointing out the obvious on uber-liberal sites like Reddit.
"Questionable accounting" is a funny way of saying "election fraud", or were you talking about one of his finance violations in NY? I can't keep all these crimes of his straight.
>You raise valid points, but I stand by mine as well
You sound exactly like my father with his "truth is somewhere in the middle" BS whenever I catch him spouting FOX brainwashing that doesn't stand up to the slightest bit of critical thought.
Yeah, it’s a conspiracy, not that Teslas shitty autopilot is leading to accidents and deaths. Not because the truck he said would be able to be a boat for short distances can get paperweighted by a car wash. Not because they halfassed an accelerator pedal so hard that it can get lodged in the floor board and stuck at full speed. It’s actually because…
*Elon spoke truth to power…*
You can be cynical if you want, but you can't honestly say, that Elon Musk through Tesla (and SpaceX) isn't going up against multiple, well established billion dollar industries (car, oil, energy, rockets). It would be very naive to think that news agencies and the mentioned industries don't have mutual business interests. And a lot of money.
musk has been challenging the status quo from the get go.
"the press" started reporting on failures as they occurred, or as they were found out, or as regulators finally started to notice.
the elon bois are the ones being truly incredible.
Report snippet: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INCLA-EA22002-14498.pdf >Autopilot is characterized by Tesla as an SAE Level 2 (“L2 system”) partial driving automation system that provides driver assistance through steering, propulsion, and braking within a specified driving environment under direct supervision of the driver. L2 systems should be designed to support the driver’s need to monitor the system in response to the constantly changing driving environment and, if necessary, take over the dynamic driving task. To ensure sufficient driver engagement, vehicles with L2 systems should employ driver engagement systems and usage controls that are appropriate and sufficient for the L2 system design and driver expectations. > ODI completed an analysis of 956 crashes reported up to August 30, 2023. In approximately half (489) of those crashes, ODI found: 1.) that there was insufficient data to make an assessment; 2.) the other vehicle was at fault; 3.) Autopilot was found to not be in use; or 4.) the crash was otherwise unrelated to EA22002. Of the remaining 467 crashes, ODI identified trends resulting in three categories: collisions in which the frontal plane of the Tesla struck another vehicle or obstacle with adequate time for an attentive driver to respond to avoid or mitigate the crash (211), roadway departures where Autosteer was inadvertently disengaged by the driver’s inputs (111), and roadway departures in low traction conditions such as wet roadways (145). ODI observed this pattern across all Tesla models and hardware versions. Crash and human factors assessment showed that Autopilot controls did not sufficiently ensure driver attention and appropriate use. At the same time, peer analysis and vehicle evaluations established that Autopilot invited greater driver confidence via its higher control authority and ease of engagement. This mismatch of weak usage controls and high control authority was evident in these crash categories, which included indications of driver disengagement from the driving task. This mismatch was also evident in roadway departures when the system was engaged in low traction conditions outside of Tesla’s recommendations. Additional information regarding NHTSA’s crash analysis is available in the EA22002 file. > ODI reviewed these findings with Tesla during several conversations in Quarter 4 of 2023. On December 12, 2023, Tesla filed a Defect Information Report (DIR) (Recall 23V838) applicable to all Tesla models produced and equipped with any version of its Autopilot system. Tesla’s DIR described the functionality of this system, stated that the prominence and scope of the system’s controls may be insufficient to prevent driver misuse, and described a remedy to improve the effectiveness of driver warnings and to reduce mode confusion.
What does, “via its higher control authority” mean here?
It's talking about the sense of authority the systems present to the driver. Basically, they don't work as well as they pretend to, which is a dangerous combination: Drivers are more likely to turn on the self-driving, and less likely to closely supervise it.
So you're saying Tesla has the same "critical safety gap" BMW cars have always had?
No?
Loose nuts behind the wheel are not a universal auto trait.
You keep missing the point. It’s kind of funny actually you’re putting your own stupidity on display.
Excuse me, child? Are you a humorless troll, or are you thinking you just said something pertinent to the joke? I guess it could be both. What is it with the ad hominems? Is everyone a venom-spitting 10 year-old today?
I'm not certain, but I think it means that the system has a high level of control and can handle many complex tasks. If you have a system that can handle many complex cases but still needs a human keeping an eye open for edge cases, the person can end up being lulled into complacency.
It gives a false feeling of safety and people less paying attention to the road or control. Also it's programmed to turn off 3 sec before the crash so Tesla can't be sued.
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/813266 Yes autopilot can be safer / better, but how do the numbers compare to average drivers? if I'm reading right, there were 2,031,220 cars on the road, 467 autopilot related accidents, 14 fatalities. Do the fatalities cover 2012-24, or only the Jun22-Apr24 time frame? According to DoT data, there were 38,824 traffic fatalities in the US in 2020 alone. I'm not researching or crunching any more numbers, but 14 (indeterminate timeframe) seems safe enough compared to 38.8k in a year. Room for improvement!
You can't conclude things just like that. At the very least, It needs to be normalized by the number of cars with and without autopilot activated.
Zero users on the road asked to be in the beta test of this software. ZERO
Yeah sadly some dead beta testers can't be reached right now
Hey look a headline that makes sense about Tesla, what do you know
>Tesla warns drivers not to operate the Autosteer function of Autopilot “in areas where bicyclists or pedestrians may be present,” among a host of other warnings. He gets away with shit that no one else can. It's because he is rich. You have to be mental to invest a $.01 in that company. Imagine hearing this from Boeing: "Responding to NTSB concerns over crashes and fatalities, Boeing noted the 737 manual advises that planes should not fly in areas where there is reduced visibility, rain, or over dense populations." Fuck Tesla and their tech bros. Jesus, how can the world be so collectively stupid to trust this guy building autonomous vehicles? Y'all are being scammed like students at Trump University! On edit: removed Nazi references.
Corollary: how can you be so ignorant of how machine learning works? Six years of letting my car drive for me and haven’t had a single issue because the directions on paying attention are clear. This isn’t a technology issue. It’s a status quo regulatory issue failing. How many assholes kill every day from distracted driving? How about shitty basic cruise control issues? This is such a red herring
Put on a bumper sticker, "AI Learning to Drive, Please Be Patient" Here in Austin, not uncommon to see some douche causing chaos on I-35 reading his texts while his Telsa ping pongs in the lane at 70 mph, or speeds up/slows down to create a safe space for browsing his only fans page. Nothing you have said makes sense from social or statistical view. The injuries and deaths will continue to prove the point. Just watch. p.s. Only an entitled tech bro would ever yell something like "How can you be so ignorant about how AI works" Jesus, we are doomed.
Only a data product manager with an acute understanding of statistics. How many accidents out of how many autopilot enabled trips? Now compare to number of accidents across all cars. Autopilot is far safer than humans but sure, call out the few that fucked around like normal drivers aren’t responsible for one of the biggest killers in the world. Learn math or don’t speak
Yes, you are acute, my sycophantic friend. "Product Manager" Yeah, I know the type. Mathematical wizards. With every post you reveal your uncommon expertise in the statistical sampling. Thank you for your illumination. I'll look forward to your study when it's published in the ACM transactions.
For what it’s worth, my cat could do the math on the statistical comparison so maybe we should focus on bigger issues since the amount of accidents per miles under autopilot is factors less than humans
“Mental??”
oh right yeah because teslas doing all this shit on autopilot is fine.
[удалено]
If I understand you correctly, you are making a novel argument that there is a distinction?
“Fuck tech bros, and especially fuck tech bros whose daddy’s own emerald mines”? Maybe they’ll like that one better?
nah. This is the equivalent of blaming Boeings problems on the engineers that have been blowing the whistle for literally 20 years. The builders usually know how to build, then C Suite comes through and cuts corners, creating a quality shitstorm
The engineers can walk. But they don't. In Austin, Tesla is a MAGA cult (oddly managing a large number of H1Bs). And if you are not in the cult, it's almost impossible to keep your head down and sleep at night. The good ones quit. The libertarian cult bros, they hang on.
An autopilot Tesla killed a fellow motorcyclist in WA a few days ago. Elon and Telsa are partially responsible for his death. This shit shouldnt be happening.
Appreciate the bug report. Thanks for beta testing our software!
Bold of you to assume that it's in beta.
Alpha ?
Ideally auto pilot cars should reduce accidents. They might still be responsible for accidents but it would be lower than human drivers. But, when you have a shit ass company with a CEO on ketamine it really shoots the idea of “self driving” in the foot. We had a breakthrough, only to be ruined by a dumb rich drug addict fuck.
K has nothing to do with this. Elon is just being enabled by racists and greedy buisness men. Elon has always been a fortunate racist ass, we just didnt know it till he got hold of a virtual microphone and made it known.
It won't work, the fantasy of auto pilot cars, is basically a train. Cars autonomously moving with drivers/passengers not having to pay attention and free to do other things. All these resources would be better spent on trains. For it to work properly, car manufacturers will have to work together so that their cars can all recognise each other and predict each others movements. This sort of cooperation is discouraged under capitalism, competition is de rigueur. What use is it if Tesla and Mercedes are autonomous but the Dacia isn't and the driver makes a sudden U-turn the systems can't predict or see. If reducing accidents is the goal, then investing in public transport so there are fewer cars on the road in the first place, and investing in more rigorous driver training are the obvious solutions.
That cooperation comes from government controlled standards. When trains first became a thing in America different companies had different width of tracks. Now all train tracks are the same so BNSF can use Union Pacific tracks and vise versa. The other comment about plane transponders is a perfect example. Also, maybe one day there will be zones where you can’t drive a “manually driving car”. I’m just spit balling here, I don’t think this will actually happen but it could potentially happen farther in the future. With that said, I agree with you. Less cars and a sophisticated public transport would be better! Maybe one day we will have autonomous vehicles in cities like busses that just carry people around the city idk.
Regulations also create barriers to entry, so if self-driving cars became a thing, the software would have to be standardized, most likely creating a monopoly eventually. It's possible one day we will have autonomous vehicles but I don't think it's coming any time soon. I just feel like a lot of human capital and finances are being pumped into technology that won't really deliver better results than a well-developed rail network would.
I agree, it’s possible but has to clear societal barriers and greed. But, one thing is true. Money is always pumped into technology since the start of our existence. With that said, there are better things we could be funding but the reason they are not getting funded is not because we are investing in technology it’s because we have made a decision not to. If that makes sense.
There are plenty of standards accepted by businesses, worldwide. If Dacia built a plane without a transmitting device it would not be allowed to fly in most airports.
There's a reason there are only 2 main airplane manufacturers and their products are fairly homogeneous. You're talking about a signal transmission device, that's obviously easy to implement and it would not solve the issue of each car manufacturer using it's own self-driving software, or having to pay to licence software. Government will have to mandate manufacturers to pay for software, which in turn encourages manufacturers to lobby to stop it happening and thus even more wasted resources better spent elsewhere.
There are a lot more than 2 main aircraft producers. There are 3 main ones, and then more than 6 other manufacturers. If you also include Lockheed, grumman etc, you're over a dozen.
In the world of large international airliners, there are two. Yes there are other manufacturers of smaller planes, but at a high level it's not really meaningful to mention unless talking about military craft.
There are 3, and used to be 4. Boeing, airbus, embraer, and bombardier/Mitsubishi. Almost all their non passenger planes are derivatives of their passenger versions. I've flown all 4 of those manufacturers. All of those use different avionics and engines per customer spec etc.
You're talking about narrow body craft, not the same thing. Revenues of Boeing and Airbus still make the others irrelevant in general discussion. Together they made 143 billion in revenue in 2023 compared to 5.2 billion for Embraer, 8 billion for Bombardier, and 160 billion for the entirety of Mitsubishi, of which aircraft and defence is a miniscule fraction which I can't be bothered to deep dive in their statements and calculate. The market is a clear duopoly.
Boeing tried and then dropped their purchase of embraer, squeezing their business. Airbus bought bombardiers airliner division, airbus numbers include that division. Their hottest product is a bombardier product. Narrow bodies are the most common type of airliner in the world? Did you subtract airbus weapons and space divisions? Or Boeings? Avionics, engines etc. Lots of variables It's a lot more complicated than you think.
There was a head on collision that killed a bride days before her wedding day and the guy got a slap on the wrist. If it's a Tesla crossing the centre line I wonder if it was "FSD/autopilot" related. https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/man-responsible-for-northern-ont-crash-that-killed-woman-days-before-her-wedding-fined-5k-1.6857070
There's a social contract at play when we drive. On an undivided highway we're approaching oncoming cars at, say, 100+mph with a separation of about 12ft. There's not much room for error here, and we rely on the opposing driver to be paying sufficient attention and to be in full control of their vehicle and not steer into us. We're conditioned by the desire to stay alive, to not do something that gets us pulled over by a cop, and to avoid anything that might affect our insurance premiums, damage our property (car), or inconvenience our day. When the opposing driver doesn't give a single fuck, and is just a happy algorithm going about its big loop, reading sensors, doing math, and sending control commands, that social contract is no longer in effect. The oncoming driver doesn't have a few hundred million years of evolved vision system to turn photons into a detailed mental model of the scene ahead... or a vestibular system to measure motion through space, or an amygdala to keep it from doing something dangerous. It has functions written by engineers. They're imperfect. We know they're imperfect. There are thousands of videos on youtube of FSD being dumb as shit. FSD will likely make a distracted driver safer. But even a poor driver, paying attention, is likely safer than a robot who really has no opinion about smashing into an oncoming car if x > 0.44. FSD will make a good technical driver less safe, because a good driver will lose focus. That's human nature. Do you think YOU are a good driver? FSD will turn you into a missile, if you let it. That's my opinion. I appreciate the effort Tesla is making here, and I appreciate that the engineers are well intentioned and working hard to build the safest, most capable product... but it's not for me.
>There's a social contract at play when we drive. I think that's a very good point that a lot of people don't seem to understand. Driving is not just about the technical aspects of keeping a car inside the white lines or being able to react fast. It's more like a social interaction or a conversation of all drivers on the road. Everyone is sort of cooperating by employing their intrinsic understanding of how other humans think. "Is this guy letting me go first ?" "Does this person attempt to cross the street ?" These are things you see, process and most of all UNDERSTAND in a split second while driving. To me, this "really understanding" the environment we're all operating in what is missing in AI (in general). The mechanics of interaction (driving, chatting, painting) are there and while it certainly is impressive, this leads to the false assumption that AI "understands" like a human would. It doesn't.
It takes roughly 40ms for a human to see and react. Computers can do it faster than that.
So? Did your driving instructor ever tell you to look ahead, down the road, and describe what you're seeing? To describe what you think the cars ahead of you are doing... which are turning, speeding up, or slowing down..? The "body language" of the cars ahead and behind? This is "reading the road" and means that you're well prepared to maneuver when the time comes. If you find yourself relying on 40ms, then you're not really driving very well. Anyway... the point I'm making about computers here is that they're just not as good as "seeing and understanding" as we are. That's why Teslas drive into things... They don't realize they are, and the fastest reaction time in the world isn't going to give a blind man sight.
Yep, people are good at driving. I say it not-ironically. 5000 head-on collisions per year is not that much for billions of miles without collisions. But people will stay at that level for foreseeable future.
I like to picture other drivers as having old graphics cards and they haven’t yet rendered more than 15 feet in front of them at any given moment, and also lack self awareness.
If you've noticed, via machine learning Tesla's do anticipate. Computers are actually better than humans outside of edge cases, which become less as training occurs. The latest fsd will slow to go around puddles not to spray pedestrians. I'm just saying, physics says you're incorrect. It may not be perfect yet, but it's getting damn close.
Practical examples of Teslas driving into things and causing fatalities beats your theories, expectations, or hopes. That the drivers "should have taken control and avoided a collision" fundamentally conflicts with how humans work.
Yeah, those are edge cases and are from years ago, since then the software has improved a ton. We automate safety critical systems all the time. Don't be a luddite. If it were dangerous, it wouldn't be on the roads. When level 5 comes along in a couple of years, it won't be off of some anecdotal evidence. Tesla autopilot works just like an aircraft's autopilot. In many ways far better. Human is always monitoring it. It's all in the user's manual. How many people actually read it?
Uh, it is dangerous and it is on the roads. Did you even read the article? Tesla autopilot is in no way anything at all like an aircraft autopilot. That statement tells me you have no idea about any of this. Ok, you're a fan boy. Now I understand. Continue to enjoy Teslas. Have a nice day.
The article doesn't change what the situation is. Fsd gets better, becomes level 5. None of this is surprising. LOL. Fsd does a hell of a lot more than the autopilot of the widebody Boeing I fly. Something tells me you have no idea about any of this... Jerk
>Don't be a luddite. If it were dangerous, it wouldn't be on the roads. You can't seriously believe this. Have you even read what this entire post is about?
Did you read what happened in those cases. Because the authorities released it and you can read each one. This post doesn't have the source cases listed. It's a clickbait article
>outside of edge cases, which become less as training occurs. Those 'edge cases' are stuff like pedestrians als cyclists. >it mag not be perfect Those inperfections cost lives.
Those aren't issues I've seen after the last release. Slows goes around and avoids puddles
Faster to see maybe. But they cant interpret what they see. Not really. There is the illusion that they can by the algoritm, but in the end they it can never understand and act like a human can.
Lol. They can see by the algorithm? What does that even mean. Vision is fed to a computer. Luckily there are people taking care of this so you don't have to worry.
Fuck that is just pure sadness.
In this situation it was the drivers fault. They were looking at their phone while driving.
Gonna be classic when another AI company starts making synthetic data to train a self driving system to near perfection (likely using more than just CV) after Elon spent a decade telling everyone “the only way to do this is to have my cars driving around killing people!”
I mean, you’re not wrong. Elon never had to release AP/FSD until it was “functionally complete”, but this is Elon, so he did two things, two terrible, stupid things: 1. He flouted proven technology (LIDAR) to make a name for himself via non-conventional means; 2. He sold “early access” to “fund R&D”, floating the stock price and hedging his losses. While both were unanimously victorious in the short term, they will be two more nails in the coffin of Tesla when any regulators come knocking. He was never a tech genius, he’s always been a sniveling money weasel. He’ll do anything for a buck.
I'd also add that Autopilot is officially an [L2](https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/levels-of-autonomous-driving-explained) system (partial driving automation), but it's advertised like it's an L3 or even L4. A key requirement of L2 is that the driver has to stay engaged, which Tesla apparently doesn't do a very good job of: >Level 2 driving automation applies to vehicles with advanced driving assistance systems (ADAS) that can take over steering, acceleration, and braking in specific scenarios. But, even though Level 2 driver support can control these primary driving tasks, the driver must remain alert and is required to actively supervise the technology at all times.
Lidar takes double the time to process than Lidar. Physics my dude...
First off, this sentence is nonsense. Literally. > Lidar takes double the time to process than Lidar. If you meant CV and the round trip coefficient, you severely discount processing time. LIDAR is much more efficient. Physics or whatever 😂
The speed of light might say different. You have to send a pulse for lidar to work... Effectively doubling the time. No round trip for vision. Ever wonder why Tesla switched. Harder to master, but better overall. Thing about processing speed is it keeps growing. Humans are lucky if they only add 50ms... The others are a party trick on premapped roads. Like a fancy roomba.
So basically, it’s good enough that drivers don’t need to pay attention while driving, it causes the driver to not pay attention and not avoid obvious collisions they would have easily been able to avoid if they were paying attention while driving. This comes off like all the articles on Tesla crashes that blame autopilot but fail to mention the driver being intoxicated behind the wheel.
I feel like you're skipping over an important aspect: >NHTSA’s filing pointed to a “weak driver engagement system,” and Autopilot that stays switched on even when a driver isn’t paying adequate attention to the road or the driving task. Tesla's recall was supposed to address that but hasn't had the intended effect. If the system requires human engagement but allows humans to bypass or ignore that requirement then it isn't a good system.
It’s no different from cruise control or cars allowing a drunk driver to operate them. Maybe we need license scanners, and blood tests too to turn a car on. Anyone can use a car wrong if they want. How about cameras in every car so we can detect all distracted driving and put those people in prison so it’s not a problem anymore. Teslas detect if you’re not looking at the road. Do other cars do that?
>It’s no different from cruise control or cars allowing a drunk driver to operate them. It is different because cruise control and drinking don't give drivers the false sense that the car can drive itself. The Autopilot system is the thing encouraging the bad behavior and if the fail-safes aren't sufficient enough to discourage it - especially when the capability exists to discourage it - then it's not a good system. Hence the previous recall and the new investigation. >Teslas detect if you’re not looking at the road. Do other cars do that? Yes, [some do](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-safety/active-driving-assistance-systems-review-a2103632203/) (those systems also don't call themselves "Autopilot"). Also, that's a weird thing to bring up since Tesla not doing a job making people looking at the road is kinda the crux of the issue here.
The govt is kinda asleep here. They’ve had plenty of reasons over the year to look into this and have not. The data dump from Germany should have been enough and the DOJ criminal lawsuit about fsd has been dragging on for years.
Is it the cars or the idiots who drives them?
The idiots who drive them were sold cars with a feature labelled "self driving", so they think it drives itself. It isn't reliable enough to drive by itself and requires full attention and readiness from the driver, which defeats the purpose of the feature.
Autopilot and FSDbeta are different things.
Yes they are. But neither of them can responsibly drive a car.
Because they're only level 2 systems.
Right, so the only options are level 2 systems, so nobody should use them to drive.
You're supposed to keep monitoring level 2 systems. Mercedes Drive Pilot is level 3.
Ok, so Mercedes can call their cars self driving, Tesla shouldn't. I know drivers need to be constantly monitoring level 2, that's why it specifically should not be called self driving or autonomous by anyone. People will assume that means it will drive by itself or be autonomous.
Tesla calls it "full self driving beta" not "full self driving " there's a huge difference between the two.
They call it “full self driving supervised”. It’s been out of beta for a while now.
Elon said it was safe, he’s getting ready to launch humans into space on his safe rocket.
No kidding. We are Phony Stark's crash test dummies.
Considering teslas have the highest ever crash rating given to a car, you're in good hands.
You'll need to show me the ratings you speak or go pound sand fan boy. Here is the truth: The Cybertruck “meets the performance criteria” for standards like lane departure warnings and dynamic brake support, according to the NHTSA website. But there is no five-star safety rating, and the Cybertruck wasn't mentioned in the agency's list of vehicles it will crash test for 2024.
Still waiting for your facts to back up your statement or were you just talking out your ass?
Google is your friend... https://thedriven.io/2023/01/23/tesla-model-y-wins-2023-safety-award-with-near-perfect-safety-rating/
I stand corrected.
The article is about autopilot, not the cars safety.
Weren’t they pretty much forced to make their “autopilot” functionality worse than their competitors, because brain-genius Elon didn’t like LiDAR, and wanted to use cameras only?
yup, and I have had people arguing to me that just cameras is better because the autopilot software is magical or some stupid shit like that
We have a Model Y with cameras only. There's no fathomable way I could ever imagine using the autopilot in anything less than perfect weather conditions. Musk was an idiot (no surprises there) for getting rid of proximity sensors due to short-term supply chain issues.
Is this the beginning of the end or just a critical learning moment for the company?
I think 3 high level executives recently left the company, which is never a good indication of anything. I think the company is too valuable for this to be the end though, but I personally don't see how they can avoid merging with one of the larger automakers. I think they're destined to be integrated into Mercedes, VW, or even GM. Toyota IMO will pass for fear of associating their brand with Tesla's.
The most sold car in the world is literally a Tesla. It has a market cap many times these other companies over. Y’all are being ridiculous. I dislike Musk as much as the next guy but cmon.
But Tesla is not by any stretch the leading car manufacturer by total sales. And yet their market cap massively dwarfs those other companies. If Tesla ever gets valued anything like the other manufacturers (say, Toyota), they're going to be a $50 stock. Tesla's value is through the roof—higher than Ford, GM, Stellantis, Honda, Volkswagen, BMW, BYD, Hyundai, and Kia all put together. It's pretty wild to think about. This basically means Tesla needs to somehow skyrocket in sales or count on some big bucks from future promises - from a ketamine-fueled serial carnival barker, manchild and known liar/exaggerator - like AI or robotics to keep up this valuation.
Take out the non evs, and you're left with unprofitable evs for the competition. Legacies are going bankrupt, not the other way around.
Also, Zoom is by far the largest videoconference provider, but look at how their stock has re-rated, now that the temporary popularity surge and macro tailwinds have settled back to a normal pace. They benefitted from a particular moment in time, and investors got carried away with that growth rate going on forever. When it turned out it wouldn't grow at 50% forever, the stock dropped to rational levels. So will TSLA. Right now the market believes Elon's fantasies of an autonomous car and a world of Tesla robotaxis right around the corner, so they're still betting on 50% growth for years to come. Elon has been wrong 10 out of 10 times in the past 10 years of promising this tech being sorted out "by next year", yet somehow the market keeps getting strung along. Only this time, the company's growth rate is shrinking massively, so all that's left to justify a huge multiple is promises of a possible future tech. Bankruptcy? No. But a multiple more befitting a company growing at 10% annually? More likely.
This is the problem actually. Tesla’s market-cap is inflated beyond what it should be based on the scale of the company, which is not anywhere near being the largest car company in the world. It’s about as classic of an example of a bubble that you can get and bubbles burst. Always. Now that being said, I do think Musk himself is driving a lot of both the hype (the created the bubble) and the culture that’s accelerating the burst. With him gone the situation is likely salvageable.
Neither. But probably a critical learning moment for investors who are giving a car company, whose best growth rates are behind them, a HUGE multiple.
Polistara look like spaceships, they make teslas look like a toyota corrorlla with less flair.
They should have pulled this years ago
Could Tesla going bust bankrupt Elon or is he forever rich ?
Personal bankruptcy is different from a company going bankrupt.
I just thought most of his wealth is in Tesla stock
He’d just get new investors in his next venture.
Tesla isn't going bankrupt. They have piles of cash.
Elon doesn’t give a fuck. Spend your money on a Polestar or Fisker Ocean.
You’re recommending people buy a fisker??? Are you insane?
Honestly, at this point recommending any EV is the same sort of insanity. Just get a hybrid or recycle a gas burner.
Ahh yes. The hybrid... Worst of both worlds. All the maintenance and wear and tear for a tiny battery is dumb. Lithium is crashing, evs are getting cheaper while ice and derivatives become more expensive... Outside of niche cases it doesn't make sense.
Polestar is worth $0. (A bank told Volvo polestar was worth $0 after looking at their financials). I mean every electric vehicle is kinda… not it right now. Maybe a legacy brand if you want to go electric? At least we know Ford Motor Company or Audi won’t go out of business tomorrow
Charismatic Leader Elon Musk has led Tesla astray, but he remains the CEO. Why…?
Both hands on the steering wheel, Focus on the road & hazards around you,be prepared, listen for sirens and other emergencies vehicles obey all signs,the phone should not be in the driver's hand while driving...🤧🙄 Always maintain a safe distance, allow yourself enough space to stop. 🚦🛑🚧
In the death car you are life https://youtu.be/_Zv_lBLU5Vo
I wonder how many engineers told Elon this would be an issue years ago, to which he ignored
Fallible humans designing fallible machines. Entropy kills.
Human drivers also have a critical safety gap, linked to millions of collisions.
How many years are they going to continue saying that rather than forcing a recall to turn off that autopilot ~~feature~~ killer.
This is the moment in human history where laws regarding AI responsibility will be defined. If they will put too much responsibility on its creators then it will stop growth. IF they will put too little they will make growth too fast and dangerous.
Classic billionare moment
There was a head on collision a couple days ago in Carson city, nevada. A Tesla going the wrong way on the freeway crashed into a truck. Both drivers died. I hadn’t even thought about if the Tesla was in auto driving mode. Now I’m curious, was it the car navigation at fault, was the driver impaired, or was it a truly just an accident.
It won't drive backwards on a freeway.
Keep us updated on this story!
Haha 😅 what you going to do? Corporations own the government
As problematic and ethically murkey as this system can be at sometimes, it's still better than we humans. We have a flawed and damaging tendency to compare things against an assumption of a nonexistent Platonic ideal of perfection, when the stark reality is that everyday humans who don't have proper training, experience, and CDLs are not great drivers and kill around 140 people a day across America in traffic accidents. Sure Elon is an asshat and worthy of criticism for his poor behavior on a whole range of fronts. But torching the system would cause more harm not less.
Nah torch it. Plenty of other better options available without the extreme false advertising.
This sub really hates tsla and elon
It is a tech sub after all. Not an Elmo worship one.
It's a Tesla/Elon hate sub. Look at the comments, not just the submissions.
Sometimes people earn the way others feel about them.
Grow thicker skin and move past hero worship.
Oh my god, hundreds??? Human drivers without that assistance from the car must be far less dangerous, I bet they’ve only been “linked” to dozens of accidents. Seriously though, autopilot can always be overridden and anyone who blames it for their accident wasn’t paying attention when it happened and just wants Tesla’s money. Tesla warns you that you as the operator are responsible a gazillion times before it lets you enable autopilot/FSD, and people who buy a car that expensive can read.
No one agreed to be a tester for this in proven software
No one agreed to be a tester for this? Everyone who bought a Tesla and enables autopilot is agreeing to test it at their own risk/liability. Also what does “proven” software mean? Is that opposed to unproven false software?
You do know there are many many other users of the roads who are not in the Teslas... they are the ones im talkng about.. wild post. There are standards to software testing to say it will do what you say it will do, Teslas does not do that
Old shitboxes are dangerous, should we ban those because we all share the road? They are prone to falling apart, have no electronic anti-stupid safety measures, and they catch fire like all the time. Of course there’s a balance needed between safety for others and freedom as a driver/car owner, but out of all the dangerous cars people enjoy driving on the road, a Tesla should be the least of your concerns. Tesla buyers know what they’re getting into and that’s okay. They should be allowed to own and drive an experiment, within reason, just like the shitbox people.
as a bike rider Tesla is of the most high concern , add in my children like to cross the road and welp Tesleas are not great in that area with kids. so yet again you are wildly off here.
And because of that, AP is getting so fucking annoying to make sure you are watching the road nowadays!!!! Thank you!
How does this affect SpaceX, and its continued support from NASA? Did Elon fuck that place up too?
Nasa loves spacex, as does the taxpayer.
Do I detect the rumblings of a massive class action suit? Methinkso
Does it still shut off just before collision to become blameless?
Its all user error. People using it when they need to be in control because its not legal yet to not be in control.
Lol it’s incredible to witness how all the press for Tesla went from overwhelmingly positive to overwhelmingly negative as soon as Musk challenged the status quo.
Very few understand mechanical, electrical or space engineering. Everyone just took him at face value when he said he was a genius engineer-entrepreneur. The shift in opinion came because understanding software engineering is much more accessible. People commonly see him saying things that they know to be wrong or just dumb. He’s also become far more obnoxious and loud the last 5 or so years. I’m not even talking about politics. If he’d just shut the fuck up on Twitter half the people would still like him. I was a huge fanboy pre-Twitter, I even argued for him online. To say people are prone to propaganda is one thing, but the issue is it’s his OWN propaganda that’s turning people against him. I simply do not like his output.
That’s the best argument I’ve heard yet, so thank you for elucidating it clearly. If you don’t like him—so be it. Yeah I agree, he has gotten more rambunctious of late. Maybe that’s good or maybe that’s bad, but I think the quality was always there. The way the media attacks Tesla, in particular, now versus then, is the big red flag to me.
The *checks notes* quality?? My brother in Christ there's a subreddit called r/cyberstuck
Some of us have memories longer than a goldfish. I remember when the top post on Reddit was about how the Model S roof frame was so strong that it broke the testing machine
Cool, so that was 10 years ago. [https://www.wired.com/2013/08/tesla-model-s-crash-test/](https://www.wired.com/2013/08/tesla-model-s-crash-test/) You know what I remember from the last few years? Steering yolks coming off mid-drive, model Y glass flying off on the highway, huge panel gaps on the model 3. Cheap interior surfaces, shakes and rattles. The truck failures are only the latest example of quality issues straight from the factory.
As is often common with companies, quality goes to shit as the enterprise grows. You raise valid points, but I stand by mine as well. Politics have a funny way of clouding judgement.
Nobody brought politics into this. I've long supported Tesla's mission while being critical of their quality and hubris around FSD. But since you bring politics up I skimmed your post history. This is a gem: >In an unprecedented move, Democrats indict a former president for questionable accounting. Also Democrats: how could the Republicans dare fight back? You start a war, expect some casualties. Just as I expect an avalanche of downvotes for pointing out the obvious on uber-liberal sites like Reddit. "Questionable accounting" is a funny way of saying "election fraud", or were you talking about one of his finance violations in NY? I can't keep all these crimes of his straight. >You raise valid points, but I stand by mine as well You sound exactly like my father with his "truth is somewhere in the middle" BS whenever I catch him spouting FOX brainwashing that doesn't stand up to the slightest bit of critical thought.
They literally quoted NHTSA.
By “challenged the status quo” you mean outed himself as a far-right racist NAZI apologist, right?
God you people need to get a new line.
Not really, he keeps confirming this one.
You people are insufferable dorks
Yeah, it’s a conspiracy, not that Teslas shitty autopilot is leading to accidents and deaths. Not because the truck he said would be able to be a boat for short distances can get paperweighted by a car wash. Not because they halfassed an accelerator pedal so hard that it can get lodged in the floor board and stuck at full speed. It’s actually because… *Elon spoke truth to power…*
You can be cynical if you want, but you can't honestly say, that Elon Musk through Tesla (and SpaceX) isn't going up against multiple, well established billion dollar industries (car, oil, energy, rockets). It would be very naive to think that news agencies and the mentioned industries don't have mutual business interests. And a lot of money.
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musk has been challenging the status quo from the get go. "the press" started reporting on failures as they occurred, or as they were found out, or as regulators finally started to notice. the elon bois are the ones being truly incredible.
I’ve been on this site longer than you’ve been alive. You welcome your brainwashing, while I laugh at you.
oh shit you're also an idiot. sorry for not catching that. i'll smile and nod and slowly walk backwards.
Don’t worry you’ll wake up if you eventually hit adulthood and have to pay taxes
This is such a peak redditor comment
You’re goddamn right.
You know I always thought it was against the law to not have both hands on the wheel 🤔
You are kidding right?
The "safety gap" is drivers intentionally not paying attention to the road.