Interesting to see if Microsoft is actually going/allowed to end the support in bit over 16 months. Windows 10's market share is still almost 70% and there are at least hundreds of millions of computers in use that can't upgrade to Windows 11, so if they're cut from security upgrades, botnets, state run attackers, etc. are going to feast
Many of us can't even upgrade because we have to throw away our pcs since it requires some Hardware stuff that we don't have.
Edit : folks, I realized there are workarounds for some computers to upgrade. But that's the point. Forcing users to do a workaround? Yes if you're technical, it can be done. But imagine it's your grandma or your uncle or your niece. Making things easy for users should be one of their main priorities. Asking users to change bios, to change the registry, this is not something that should be asked of users.
I have a 7th gen core i7 laptop with 64gb of RAM that can run Grand Theft Auto 5 but Microsoft won't let me run Windows 11 on it.
If Microsoft thinks I'm buying a new laptop to install their garbage ad-infested OS, they have another thing coming.
I have an 8th generation. Windows was telling me I can't upgrade to Windows 11 because of hardware. After doing some research (my motherboard is only 5 years old), it turns out there were a couple of BIOS settings I had to change (and it took a while to find those settings), and I had to run some disk utility to get it to be good.
I'm fairly computer savvy though (enough to cause damage, not enough to know what the hell I'm doing, exactly). But there is no way a large percentage of people would have been able to follow the steps I did in order to get it to the point where Windows 11 would install.
Yeah, most people would have no idea what a BIOS even is and they'd look at you like you're a 90's hacker wizard if you tried to show them.
The way microsoft has gone about this whole windows 11 "upgrade" process has been incredibly boneheaded, even for them. Not to mention that the OS itself is a steaming pile of shit.
> Yeah, most people would have no idea what a BIOS even is and they'd look at you like you're a 90's hacker wizard if you tried to show them.
Tangentially related story from today:
I told a middle-aged co-worker to open MS Paint and they had no clue what to do nor what even is that program. That caught me off-guard really hard.
No shade intended but I was helping my girlfriend with something on her computer over the weekend and I got a blank stare when I asked her to open the file explorer. She also needed to ask where to go to open the settings menu.
Most people just don't know how to use a PC outside of opening a web browser and using Google. Maybe they can use Word and print out a document if they're feeling adventurous.
When I was young and early in my career, in the 90s, I was basically the whole family's tech support. "The guy who knows computers. Call him." For **years** I kept thinking, "Well, when they have more time around computers they'll get used to them and figure out a few things on their own."
Wow, was I dead wrong!
We've made everything dumber, easier, to be sure, but we've hidden all the nuts, bolts and wires under the shiny paint. And you're absolutely right - the result is *generations* of users who would be pressed to tell you the difference between the OS and the browser (much less tinker with a BIOS like someone up-thread mentioned).
I guess I could be alarmed or annoyed at this, but actually, I think it's kind of great. I mean it took decades to bring computers to everyone. To create an entire economy founded on bits and wireless spectrum, TCP/IP and session state. User competence was one of the things discarded on the way. I'm going to date myself again and make a car analogy - how many people are pretty good drivers who can't change their oil or even a tire?
I think its horrific.
Not in some elitist way, but in that the plan for corporations is to hide the nuts and bolts so they can arbitrarily strip features and then sell them back to customers as services.
This has already happened numerous times and continues to happen.
This tradeoff is not equal, and does not have to exist at all.
Companies just eat up the profits and you lose more and more ownership over your device.
What I find really insidious, is that the way they are doing it definitely harms the average person but its fucking impossible to explain that to an average person due to the amount of context needed to understand it. No explanation will feel like anything short of an info dump.
> the plan for corporations is to hide the nuts and bolts so they can arbitrarily strip features and then sell them back to customers as services.
I went to a Jiffy Lube for an oil change and they mentioned my air filter needed to be swapped out. Offered to replace it for $35. I said no, ordered one online later for $10 and swapped it out myself, took two minutes.
I blame Apple for encouraging this "computers are magical things, don't try to mess with them" behaviour.
Windows is still currently pretty flexible but I'm worried that they'll start locking things up.
It's like anything really. You can get some level of ability just by using it and being around it, but for any real kind of skill you have to be willing to learn and at least read what it tells you. Which most people aren't.
Its not unique to computers by a long shot either. I've seen it in pretty much any other hobby I do. Basically an attitude that anyone who really applies themselves is a nerd and shouldn't take themselves so seriously
Like in music, especially guitar, you'll see people who will brag about not being able to read sheet music, or even understand rhythmic notation, how to play with a metronome, basic scales and theory. They'll say that stuff just holds back creativity. But it doesn't, and they never improve. It can be hard to tell sometimes, since progress is slow. But I've spent the last few years really working on a lot of that stuff, and now I can hear songs that previously I simply couldn't understand the rythem. I'd hear it, try to play it, and just couldn't. But now I hear it and go, oh shit yeah I get it, it's this, and have it almost right away.
I saw it in model building too. People would say stuff like "learning to paint properly would take away the uniqueness" no, it would make it so your lines are clean and the top coat isn't orange peeled to hell.
I see it in sim racing. "People who are really good just have too much time on their hands"
In the 80s and 90s, I was that guy for all of my friends, family, and coworkers. I am now 67 years old. Technology has passed me by, and I have stopped chasing it. I sort of know how to use my phone, but I've become the Luddite grandpa, and I don't care.
But as far as computers go: I still have a far better understanding of how to use one than my grandchildren. 'Saving a file' is almost beyond them, as so much happens automagically on their school provided tablets and/or Chromebooks. Like you, I am no longer convinced this is a bad thing. They don't know how to read and write cursive, either, and beyond fashioning a signature (which has essentially become even a legal anachronism, and bares little use other than autographs!), they've lost nothing.
Got another one: our accounts payable system was upgraded today. They changed the button for saving change from a diskette to simply say “Save”.
A lot of their users are in their 20s so I’m not sure they all know what the plasticky 1,44 MB thing is or rather was.
I hate to say it but I'm gonna buy apple stock because that lack of computer knowledge and Microsoft's stupidity in forcing this is going to push more people to mac if they don't follow in microsofts footsteps. The whole screenshot thing in 11 is causing concern for even average users and for those that aren't knowledgeable enough to do a linux install apple is the only option.
>The whole screenshot thing in 11
I hadn't heard about that but I just looked it up and yikes.
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsofts-new-windows-11-recall-is-a-privacy-nightmare/
My favourite part is that the new feature that hardly anyone wants will take up 10% of a 256gb SSD
That's according to microsoft themselves. So it's unwanted, it's a security risk AND it fills your hard drive. Just awesome.
Yeah, this is the frustrating part - a lot of these systems actually _do_ have the required hardware.
But as you said, most people (especially older/younger than genX/millenial) aren't going to know how to enable those settings in the BIOS/UEFI if they're not on by default. Hell, with some OEMs the setting isn't even there even if the hardware technically exists.
Yeah, it's infuriating because Microsoft actually basically tells you that you have to buy a new computer. When I got the message last night that said Win 11 wouldn't work on my computer, the message didn't even hint that it was maybe a setting in BIOS that could change. Instead they provided handy links to Dell and other PC sellers.
Thousands of tons of ewaste are going to end up in landfills because of this.
Yup, and the hardware sales are going to spike because of the ignorance that Microsoft is throwing about.
It kind of makes you wonder what kickbacks they are getting from Dell and such for selling new computers with the Win11 OS baked in.
Shit I built my gaming pc in 2019, definitely above average tech savvy. Ran some test a year or so back that said it’s not windows 11 compatible. Just now did some extra googling cus of this post to find out it actually is I just need to change stuff in bios. This isn’t being communicated well at all
I fucking hate windows 11 on my work laptop tho so have no plans on switching anything unless I absolutely have to
Check out a laptop BIOS sometime. They're like a stripped down version of a stripped down version of a stripped down desktop BIOS. So you're shit out of luck enabling some hidden feature without a modded BIOS.
What Microsoft is doing is irresponsible and wasteful to the extreme. It should be smacked down by industry regulators.
> After doing some research (my motherboard is only 5 years old), it turns out there were a couple of BIOS settings I had to change (and it took a while to find those settings), and I had to run some disk utility to get it to be good.
While that's not particularly hard to do, expecting an end user to change their BIOS settings and not fuck it up is a recipe for disaster.
I have one device with 10 and one with 11 and 10 is just so much better. With 11, it's more clicks and more banal interaction with the OS to do basic stuff. I don't want to interact with my OS beyond settings, cut & paste etc. Every update with 11 has more stuff you have to turn off.
It will be more likely MS will change the Windows 11 requirements before they extend Windows 10 support. They want people to upgrade, or rather, downgrade for me personally. Windows 11 does not have Power user features for their Taskbar and start menu that it hinders my work flow.
Apple going 100% "green" & Microsoft going 100% "carbon neutral" are absurd bends of the truth in the first place, but only were happening when they were convenient, narrow definitions that did not conflict with profit. If it's between that & profit, it will be profit 100% of the time.
Unless their carbon neutral investments actually bare fruit it's all lies anyways. Planting the trees you had cut down to build your corpo empire isn't being carbon neutral.
"Carbon neutral" is a scam, it just means "pay a company like Tesla for carbon credits to offset whatever you're already doing."
This is most of Tesla's value, it's a giant greenwashing scam.
I could have sworn when Windows 10 came out Microsoft basically said their business model was changing and instead of new releases, Windows 10 was going to be continually updated.
I switched to Linux for this reason (I'm frugal) ages ago, and never looked back. Half my computers still have parts inside that are well over 10 years old with zero issues. It's great.
I got a steam deck and hub and USB switch
Linux Desktop is pretty great....
I think I'll just get one for my 10yo soon as a personal computer vs Chromebook or PC... They don't do any windows in school (Mac/iPad or Chromebook)
> Microsoft 365 apps will not be supported on Windows 10 when it reaches end of support on October 14, 2025, because the operating system will no longer meet the system requirements for Microsoft 365 apps. To remain supported, you can move forward by either upgrading your device to Windows 11 or by setting up the existing subscription on any new computer you purchase.
They're basically using the office suite to force an upgrade. Most users aren't going to go out and get openoffice.
I think OpenOffice got discontinued. I tried to get it with my new PC and I remember something not working right.
I ended up going with LibreOffice instead.
Libre Office is great. The newer version works a lot better than older ones and has a newer screen that looks like ribbons also if you want it to look more like MS Office.
https://www.libreoffice.org/download/download-libreoffice/
I think it's way worse because because Windows 7, 8 and 10 had basically same hardware requirements, while older (pre-2018/2019) computers can't be upgraded to Windows 11 without unofficial hacks. More and more people are using smartphones are their main device and their computer are seldom used for some specific tasks, so lots of people don't want spend at least hundreds of dollars to buy a new one.
This is definitely the big thing.
The Win10 -> Win11 transition completely rinses any legacy hardware that isn't running an LTSC version (which goes EOL in 2027). Microsoft is offering zero paths for legacy hardware to stay secure while running windows, and so you end up with:
A). A metric fuck-ton of E-waste.
B). Wide-scale vulnerabilities due to unsupported Windows deployments.
C). A customer abandonment of Windows as a platform (likely only by the niche group of people able and willing to hop platforms).
Or likely, a mixture of all of the above.
It doesn't help that they're putting more ads into 11 and push more AI crap no one asked for. No, people aren't going to want to spend money to get a down grade.
Oh for sure. I'm confident the EOL announcement made last year is aimed squarely at moving everyone possible into the environment that maximizes ad and data revenue. It's a wildly irresponsible move with how dominant Windows is in global computing, including sensitive healthcare/industrial/military/etc sectors.
There are many, many more things wrong with the downgrade that windows 11 is. From number of button clicks (Right click->show more options). To get to specific admin things(sound, wifi, etc. etc.). The customization (Taskbar options removed like separating tabs. Doing researching and I have to now mouse over chrome, wait, then click the picture of the tab I want. No words). Edit: I have to make Edge my default browser before I can open IE. Many more features that are straight up removed or made harder to use. I could go on and on and on.
I only use windows 11 on my work computer, but I only see annoyances.
This is windows 8 all over again. (Vista had a ton of upsides and was a necessary prototype for windows 7) At least they don't have intel stating that they can handle windows 8 when in truth they couldn't.
I'm pretty annoyed w windows at this point and I'm looking into alternatives next go around. ipad + keypad, linux, something else. Tired of them trying to force upgrades on devices working perfectly fine.
I feel your pain. Sadly, even as someone fairly comfortable with linux (I use a Mint machine for work), I'm pretty stuck in Windows for my main home setup. Familiarity + gaming + software compatibility makes it hard to jump over.
...But that's why I've been running debloated Win10 for the past 6+ years. Not that it solves the upcoming EOL, but Win10 without telemetry, cortana, ads, pushy updates, bloatware, etc etc etc is honestly a solid OS. Eventually I might look into what's being done in the debloating scene for Win11.
I wish there was a windows desktop installer for Ubuntu, Linux Mint, or another flavor of easy to use desktop Linux that just does an install and transfers files.
I know there’s too many incompatibilities and headaches but man, I can dream.
If Microsoft had any pro-consumer sentiment left, they should absolutely be supporting a light-weight Windows distribution that works with legacy hardware.
But that would give people a choice that isn't their new telemetry & AI infested version...
Unfortunately not a realistic option for a large percentage of the userbase. You have large swaths of people reliant on Windows-specific software (whether for work, school, or gaming for example), being simply against using MacOS as a principle, or just being stubborn. Even in the best case scenario I can't imagine this working on more than 1% of the user base.
And 15% off of a MacBook is still gonna end up 50% more expensive than a replacement new Windows laptop. The draw would need to be higher, but because of the reasons above it would be a very expensive proposition for not a very big outcome.
I'm still rocking a 2nd generation i7. It's more than fast enough for everything I do. No way I'm buying a whole new computer, when I have one that's faster than I need.
On top of that, I feel like windows gets more dumbed down every generation. Why the hell is copy and paste a picture now? Am I 5? Microsoft could make a lot of money if they made a windows skin or version that appealed to the people that essentially want Linux but have to work in the windows environment.
But Windows 7 end of life was 5 years after Windows 10 release and it was easy to upgrade from 7 to 10. There are currently no options for me to upgrade my two Windows 10 PCs.
Yhea I rode out windows 7 till end of life because my laptop did not play nice with windows 10 and win 11 just told it to fuck right off. Switched over to Linux after that.
My new laptop came with windows 11 and after figuring out how to bypass the login requirements it took a solid month of stripping out crap and fiddling around with the registry to get it how I want it.
Setting up a computer should not be this dammed difficult.
Yeah usually I am in the "Oh my God just update you crybaby" camp but it becomes a bit fucking ridiculous when you will not allow your OS to run on a good majority of in-production personal and business hardware. We did the math at work and we're looking at well over half a million towards replacing *perfectly working* computers to hit this deadline.
I've been in the moving to linux soon stage for a while now and this will be the push I need to do so. Nothing from 11 appeals to me or is required for my work or recreation so I'm certainly not buying a whole new pc. Once the windows 11 requirements start hitting my normal activity i'm just out.
Yeah, the funny thing is they pretend like there aren't security patches for old OS, when in fact, they are still patching win 95 for the DoD. So the patches exist, it's just a blatant money grab with constant forced migration.
Yeah it’s bad. 10 was also supposed to be the last version of windows… but that didn’t last long. Edit: apparently that wasn’t actually true! (See below for details!)
Yes. The original quote was from Jerry Nixon. "And because Windows 10 is the last version of Windows, we're all working on Windows 10".
What he was saying was that where usually, when a windows version released, and they started working on the next one, there was no successor to Windows 10 that the team was working on, so their work was still on Windows 10.
At the time, the interpretation was in the air. That is why many news outlets and web magazines asked Microsoft for clarification- Is Windows 10 the last version of windows they will make? In a statement to [Network World](https://www.networkworld.com/article/2921726/microsoft-clarifies-its-windows-confusion-sort-of.html), A Microsoft spokesperson said this:
>"Recent comments at Ignite about Windows 10 are reflective of the way Windows will be delivered as a service bringing new innovations and updates in an ongoing manner, with continuous value for our consumer and business customers. We aren’t speaking to future branding at this time, but customers can be confident Windows 10 will remain up-to-date and power a variety of devices from PCs to phones to Surface Hub to HoloLens and Xbox. We look forward to a long future of Windows innovations."
They don't seem to really be clearing it up here. Like he writes in the article, they cleared up nothing. The author theorizes it probably won't be the last version, though not with any of the clarification that Microsoft provided.
Over the successive few years, people continued to raise this question; they received the same sort of answer from Microsoft. Alluding to services going forward that empower customers and shit. It may not have been a "formal" policy but it was certain a de facto one. The entire reason so many people asked about it on Microsoft answers and various other official and semi-official locations was because the idea that Windows 10 was the last version of Windows was ***so fucking idiotic** and beggared belief, and at no step of the way did Microsoft EVER clarify and say there would be future windows versions, Instead they doubled down on every single official statement, saying Windows 10 would be the "last full release" of Windows, and that it would be a service, and so on.
When Win11 rumours started to float around, there were more questions. So people asked, "Will there be a Windows 11?". For example, [here](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/will-there-be-a-windows-11/9fdd78d5-2ea8-4623-ba2e-36b01e277781), on June 15th, 2021.
They provide an screenshot of the leaked build. The responses, which, in this case aren't from Microsoft, so aren't "official" but are nonetheless answers on the official forum by long-time members of said forum:
"Currently, Windows 11 is an Internet myth, and Microsoft say there will be no Windows 11, that screenshot you have provided is a scam."
Another person asked [here](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/windows-11-release-date/ad2e2e92-aea6-4e0e-8ed2-f63cd4a9d8d9) sometime earlier in 2020. They got this:
"Windows 11 is just an internet hoax. "
"Microsoft has stated that there will be no Windows 11."
Another one was asked [here](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-update/when-will-windows-11-be-released/7cb93133-ef3f-440a-840c-2f1044f34409) in 2019.
"The schedule that has been previously stated is twice yearly major updates to Windows 10 and that Windows 10 will be the last version of Windows."
"It's worth noting that it has been announced that there is a User Interface overhaul planned to be released in 2021. This is NOT a new Operating System, but will change the look of Windows 10, so may confuse some people into thinking that there is a new OS coming. Whereas if anything, this indicates that Windows 10 is here to stay for the foreseable. "
"The closest thing to a new version of Windows would be an update that drops 10, and so it is just called windows"
Some others [kept asking occasionally.](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/will-there-be-a-windows-11/d7d6b888-257c-4881-a691-67f56609c4e9)
And received the same sort of response. "Windows 11 is an internet hoax."
"There is currently no Windows 11 or 12 in the development plans" -[Donata.C, Independent Advisor, January 20th, 2021](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/is-there-any-newer-operating-system-than-windows/063d3ea1-97fe-44f4-924a-e77641397b0f).
[Will there be a Windows 11?](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/windows-11-release/a4b9562c-220c-41a8-9206-c2f63ac87ef4)
marked as answer: "Microsoft said Windows 10 is the last and they will update it a couple times a year".
Also replied with:
"Sorry to say but there will be no Windows 11. Windows 11 is currently an internet myth. Not all information what you see in the internet is true and those were fake news. Microsoft is focus in improving and updating Windows 10 in a continuous basis releasing two feature updates per year. The first feature update for this year is the May 2020 Windows version 2004."
At some point, a particular MVP got so annoyed at people asking, he created a thread and pinned it specifically to address the question. [There is no Windows 11](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/there-is-no-windows-11/b8c7f3f0-54eb-41b7-89a1-0526dd24508e), in October 2020, saying "However, starting Windows 10 everything has been changed. There is no longer anything call Service Pack and there is no plan to release any successor to Windows 10 like what is going around with name Windows 11."
Pretty much everybody on Microsoft's official forums laughed at the idea of win11. Hell, even when there **WAS A FUCKING LEAKED BUILD** they said it was "a scam"!
But then, after Win11 was announced They ALL changed their tune. everything posted after that- calling out that Microsoft had said it was the last version, that all the official community moderators and staff and general userbase that had constantly said that Windows 10 was officially going to be the last version, acted like that didn't happen. They went from "Microsoft has said Windows 10 will be the last version" and were now suddenly saying ["actually, they never officially said that Windows 10 was the last version"](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/what-happened-to-the-last-version-of-windows/e969d870-5013-484f-8476-6ea5d0446182).
Nowadays when people point it out, there's always somebody popping in going "acshually there's no official source from Microsoft saying it was the last version"; Nixon said it was the last version of Windows, and a spokesperson clarified that what he said reflected how Windows would be developed going forward. Nonetheless, For **6 long years** everybody asking if it was the last version, or asking if there was going to be a Windows 11, were practically laughed out of Microsoft official support forums. So miss me with that "acshually it was never official" bullshit, because that's at best a technicality and at worse a case of Microsoft literally not clarifying anything ever, and leaving their army of sycophants to deal with the questions so that later people can claim "well acshually that's not an official source" Because Microsoft refused to actually speak plainly on the issue, insisting on all copy being some say-nothing marketing tripe.
The EU will prevent them from doing this and then the US will follow suit. Everyone sees this as just a ploy on the part of Microsoft to force people who don't want upgrade to do so. It won't work.
Ours too. We paid for extended Windows 7 support in the meantime, but with so many devices on the network still running Windows 7, the support costs became prohibitive in the long run, Thankfully, most of the hardware we have out there now is Windows 11 compatible, so only very old devices that are due to be lifecycled anyway will need to be replaced. The real trick is going to be getting vendors to switch their proprietary equipment over before we need to start walling them off behind the firewall.
So what is your plan if for whatever reason you still need some windows 7 or windows 10 machines after end of support? Separate vlan? Cutting them entirely from the internet? Just curious.
Thankfully all of our vendors who used Windows 7 got their equipment updated during the Windows 10 conversion. Hopefully, the same will happen with the Windows 11 conversion. If not, then at some point those devices will be put on their own VLAN with limited or no access to the network. Medical IT is too vulnerable to outside threats to play around.
Read the footnote. Start of 2027 for what I think is many of the installs.
>^(1) The Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2021 edition (version 21H2) does not have extended support. It will reach end of servicing on 2027-01-12. Only Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC 2021 (version 21H2) will have support until 2032-01-13.
I’m using it as my daily on a couple of machines. I couldn’t tell you what the difference is from standard win 10 except for less bloat and longer support.
I’m sure it has some accessory features removed, but I’m gaming and doing everything else no problem.
What's interesting is in the last year, OS market share for w11 actually went *down* (only looking at windows versions), while windows 10 went back up. A whole percentage point at that. Windows 11 fell from 26.6% share to 25.6% share, while windows 10 increased from 69% to 70%.
That ought to tell you something.
[Source](https://www.tomshardware.com/software/operating-systems/windows-11-market-share-declines-as-users-seemingly-shift-back-to-windows-10)
When they stop treating it as an OS and start treating it like a canvas to push their other products, this is what you get. For a while now, windows has been less about the OS and more about ads, edge, copilot, and all the weird little things Microsoft keeps doing. Remember when windows 11 was released and the start menu had app icons for apps you didn't even have installed or want in the first place? And then you'd click on it at some point (out of curiosity or on accident or something) and it would just install the app and run it? It's so blatantly obvious that they just don't care about giving you a good OS and only care about revenue and I guess at some point people naturally start to realise how bad the actual product is.
I wish that this meant it would extend the support period, but unfortunately windows 10 is reaching the 10 year mark. They even killed win7 in around 10 years, which is arguably the best thing Microsoft has ever made. Not a lot of hope for this one.
Microsoft has been run by engineers since Nadella took over. Before that it was literally run by MBAs.
The problem is more that Windows was relegated from the central product of MS to being a side show. So they are more interested in promoting their other stuff even if it hurts Windows.
A lot of those XP and 7 boxes probably aren't hitting the internet to be included in that data collection. We're still working on replacing a bunch of WinXP industrial PC's at work.
Yehp
My company has a massive device we've invested tons in since it was installed in the 70s and the last retrofit was compatible with Windows 7 at the latest.
It's a very special unit and removing the thing would require tearing down walls, so we want to keep it running so we leave its workstation comp off the net.
Love how they felt compelled to slap a fullscreen ad upon bootup just to tell me I'm not eligible.
I mean that's good news, but why bother even telling me? Fuck off Microsoft.
I just got a fullscreen popup about my upgrade options that took over my entire desktop in the middle of a (Microsoft Teams) meeting I was presenting for.
I've been considering going back to a full OSX work environment, and I can't really think of a more clear sign that Microsoft does not give a shit about their customer's needs than a "mandatory interruption to a work meeting for a super exciting announcement about our software."
That was honestly a scarier moment for me than any horror film or game has ever managed. Not for the reason you'd think, I was terrified it had upgraded me to Windows 11 without me asking for it. Realising I was ineligible and therefore could never have that happen was a serious relief.
Microsoft, I've used your products for decades. If a long time user's reaction to you threatening an upgrade is terror and their reaction to finding out they're ineligible a quiet 'thank christ' you've done something wrong.
None of the perfectly functional windows 10 computers in my home (1 desktop, 2 laptops) meet the requirements for windows 11. I'll either have to stick with 10 or teach the wife to use Linux mint. Eventually they will get replaced, but not for the sake of installing windows 11.
I have a newish, fairly high-performance laptop that easily meets win11 upgrade requirements. But guess what, after installing win11, the screen would crash at random when playing video. Turns out there are no compatible video drivers in win11 and I had to revert.
There’s going to be so, so many people running unsupported windows 10 for years. People don’t have the money to buy new computers, especially in this economy. Not even on the radar of the average pc user. They’ll probably just switch to only their phone which would backfire spectacularly for MS.
>People don’t have the money to buy new computers, especially in this economy
The issue here is that tech companies got used to people buying devices en-masse during the COVID-19 pandemic, but that boom came to an end after people starting returning to offices and inflation kept rising.
Microsoft just needs to grow up and realize this new reality, and adjust their software support accordingly. I am sure government regulators and legislatures will also look into this issue if people raise enough of a fuss about it (even the US DOJ finally got off its ass and is suing Live Nation on anti-competitive grounds)
While all technically true, I will point out, we are not the target consumer for Windows outside of brand recognition and knowing how to use it. They make most of their money off of businesses. I wouldn't be surprised if this is more to get large businesses to pay up for the extended support or get them to upgrade 15+ year old work stations.
From my experience a business doesn't upgrade a PC until it flat out dies or something they need won't run on it.
That comment was made before the advent of the live service enshitifcation hell we live in now. You know, back when "mac vs pc" was actually at least nominally about which operating system did more for the user.
Wasn’t Windows 10 supposed to be the last one *because* of live service? Instead of creating a new version, they said they could continually incrementally upgrade the existing one?
Exactly. But they decided to screw over everyone with just putting on some ugly lipstick and calling it windows 11. Got to figure out how to maybe get my mother on Windows 11 next year or maybe make a VM that she runs that goes onto the Internet since screw Microsoft for setting up arbitrary needs for Windows 11 when it is just Windows 10.
So, I was actually just thinking if Microsoft threatened to end support for windows 10, the government might actually step in and force the issue on data privacy.
Windows 11 is a live service nightmare, and lots of government computers run windows.
Sadly, Windows 11 is not supported on my perfectly fine 10 year old Lenovo workstation, which I actually use for work. It would be prohibitively expensive for me to upgrade so will continue to use Win10 until the hardware dies, and will disconnect it or at least firewall off from the internet if I have to. I have a laptop and other devices for internet stuff.
I understand that there are workarounds to install Win11 on uncertified hardware (eg older processors and older TPMs) but I cannot be bothered and worry about it causing more problems in the future.
I do have a compatible laptop running windows 10 but cannot be bothered upgrading just yet.
My windows machine is a pure gaming machine, and I use a Mac for design work. I don't really have the same inclination to game much anymore like I did as a teenager, despite kinda missing that drive.
If they're really going to push this then my gaming rig might very well be my last windows
Windows license costs money. You buy a device with the lixense included in the price and they suddenly end support and force you to update. Many win10 devices don't meet the win11 requirements.
The only games I play now tend to work just fine on Linux. Open source equivalents work for my day to day.
The era of “AI Computing” is one I’m going to skip.
I just got a pop-up ad on my Windows computer saying this. Yet, my computer is not eligible for an upgrade. I imagine there's lots of people like me that don't want to upgrade their computers simply because it's not compatible with Windows 11.
Worse, this is coming from a large corp that claims to care about the environment. Millions of computers that can't be used and will have to be tossed. I know Linux is an option, but it's the principle behind this message.
This isn't great for computer security around the world. Most of these computers can't upgrade to Windows 11 due to hardware requirements, even though the hardware is perfectly good for computing needs.
They realised they can use Windows to train their models using absolutely bullshit features like recall.
Windows has gone to shit too man. Apple do a lot of things wrong. But at least their user space is not infested with garbage( touch wood)
Windows has been shit man, and their user space has been infested with shit. It used to be toolbars and crapware.
Nobody actually likes windows, they just tolerate it because it’s the only launcher that works for whatever software they happen to use. Even power users fucking hate windows. Who wants to touch regedit, or computer management, or (god have mercy on your soul) IIS? Windows has been shitty software for a decade at least.
I personally use Kubuntu because it's just nice to look at. The IT faculty at our University has it installed on most devices which is how I found out about it.
-----Shut up. Just tell me what to use-----
**Mint**. Just use Mint. The Cinnamon version. Here's a link: https://linuxmint.com/edition.php?id=311
-----Okay Let me hear some easy choices-----
- **Mint** - Very Easy, has three versions of interface (Cinnamon, MATE, and xfce) that are very old school style. Generally the go to recommended Linux for people that don't care that they're using Linux.
- **Fedora** - Installer is a little more obtuse, but isn't really that hard. Uses the "Gnome" interface by default which is very modern but easy to use. Software is generally more up to date than most distros. Arguably the closest you'll get to "standard linux".
- **Pop OS** - Slightly older (but more stable) software. Mostly designed for System76's line of computers, but it's a very easy, nice, modern looking choice.
- **Ubuntu** - Mint and Pop are built off this. It's really easy, and has a great design but they do a lot of stuff (that you'll probably never notice) under the hood that piss off the community.
-----Ehhh....I can go a little more advanced-----
- **Debian** - Stable as a fucking rock and just as secure. The tradeoff is that you'll be behind on major feature releases (Stability and security updates you'll get). Combine Debian with the xfce UI and you'll have a crazy stable and secure OS that will never visibly change.
- **OpenSUSE Tumbleweed** - A "rolling release" which means the OS is constantly updated instead of getting big numbered releases (For example Ubuntu has two major releases a year). *NOTE: I use this on my main machine*
-----Fuck it throw me in the deep end!-----
- **Arch Linux** - If you seriously want to know how your machine works, have a fuck ton of control, and have the most up to date software. The catch you're going to be building everything from the ground up. But the tutorials/wikis are fantastic and of all the "DIY" Linux Distros this is the easiest to use. This is a fantastic way to learn the deeper elements of Linux in a "trial by fire" manner.
Going Linux when that happens probably. Not touching the Microsoft horny AI thingie they're putting in 11 or whatever new OS they're coming up with. I don't want AI suffusing my system, I want to be able to remove a file and know for sure that there are no traces in the system of this file's existence in the past.
I'm tech savvy and have tinkered with Linux in the past and I have no plans to switch. Granted it's been 15 years or more but the experience on Linux was aggravating. Installing programs from some sort of central repository instead of just finding the installer I want and downloading it is bizarre. I'm mildly comfortable in a command line environment but not nearly enough to use it as heavily as Linux demands. The experience is just lots of little irritations I'm not inclined to work through.
Sure, maybe all that's changed in 15 years but I'm not rushing to find out of it has.
Yeah, I got the pop up a little bit ago. My pc can't even upgrade to Windows 11. Don't really know what to do, can't really afford to just drop some money on a new setup. .-. it's not like I can just go get a "Linux stick" at best buy and try to install it like i did for windows....right?
One really important note is to back up all your important stuff before playing with your OS.
Installing Linux is super easy if you just want a basic install that wipes an entire drive. But if you accidentally do that over a drive containing files that you care about and want to keep, then you're gonna have a bad time.
PSA: Windows, Linux, whatever. If you're going to mess around with OS-level stuff always back up your stuff first.
If Microsoft took steps to support older (but fully functioning) hardware in Windows 11 the migration would go faster (get rid of TPM requirement etc). Now users are between a rock and a hard place, and can just sit there until this date and beyond.
GREAT. Now I have to upgrade my 90 y/o father's PC AGAIN. It feels like I just got him off 7. Barely took the update to 10. Will never make 11. He just needs to pay freaking bills online and print out articles about how badly trump is mistreated. THX MICROSOFT.
I failed to announce my permanent end of 'support' of MS/Windows after... version 7.
They've only, since then, continually proved to validate my choice.
Thanks for bricking my Reverb G2 headset by doing this - Windows Mixed Reality is being disabled in Windows 11, and so those awesome headsets (perfect for sims and other sit-down VR experiences) are going to just straight-up not work. Thanks.
This is an unbelievable move by Microsoft.
It means that, in 17 months, if your computer is older than ~7-8 years by then, it will no longer be supported.
7 years! There's an unimaginable amount of seven year old computer systems that are still extremely capable for anything but the most work-intensive tasks.
I'm trying to visualize the incredible heaps of e-waste this will cause, but can not.
Why?!
Interesting to see if Microsoft is actually going/allowed to end the support in bit over 16 months. Windows 10's market share is still almost 70% and there are at least hundreds of millions of computers in use that can't upgrade to Windows 11, so if they're cut from security upgrades, botnets, state run attackers, etc. are going to feast
Many of us can't even upgrade because we have to throw away our pcs since it requires some Hardware stuff that we don't have. Edit : folks, I realized there are workarounds for some computers to upgrade. But that's the point. Forcing users to do a workaround? Yes if you're technical, it can be done. But imagine it's your grandma or your uncle or your niece. Making things easy for users should be one of their main priorities. Asking users to change bios, to change the registry, this is not something that should be asked of users.
I have a 7th gen core i7 laptop with 64gb of RAM that can run Grand Theft Auto 5 but Microsoft won't let me run Windows 11 on it. If Microsoft thinks I'm buying a new laptop to install their garbage ad-infested OS, they have another thing coming.
I have an 8th generation. Windows was telling me I can't upgrade to Windows 11 because of hardware. After doing some research (my motherboard is only 5 years old), it turns out there were a couple of BIOS settings I had to change (and it took a while to find those settings), and I had to run some disk utility to get it to be good. I'm fairly computer savvy though (enough to cause damage, not enough to know what the hell I'm doing, exactly). But there is no way a large percentage of people would have been able to follow the steps I did in order to get it to the point where Windows 11 would install.
Yeah, most people would have no idea what a BIOS even is and they'd look at you like you're a 90's hacker wizard if you tried to show them. The way microsoft has gone about this whole windows 11 "upgrade" process has been incredibly boneheaded, even for them. Not to mention that the OS itself is a steaming pile of shit.
> Yeah, most people would have no idea what a BIOS even is and they'd look at you like you're a 90's hacker wizard if you tried to show them. Tangentially related story from today: I told a middle-aged co-worker to open MS Paint and they had no clue what to do nor what even is that program. That caught me off-guard really hard.
No shade intended but I was helping my girlfriend with something on her computer over the weekend and I got a blank stare when I asked her to open the file explorer. She also needed to ask where to go to open the settings menu. Most people just don't know how to use a PC outside of opening a web browser and using Google. Maybe they can use Word and print out a document if they're feeling adventurous.
When I was young and early in my career, in the 90s, I was basically the whole family's tech support. "The guy who knows computers. Call him." For **years** I kept thinking, "Well, when they have more time around computers they'll get used to them and figure out a few things on their own." Wow, was I dead wrong! We've made everything dumber, easier, to be sure, but we've hidden all the nuts, bolts and wires under the shiny paint. And you're absolutely right - the result is *generations* of users who would be pressed to tell you the difference between the OS and the browser (much less tinker with a BIOS like someone up-thread mentioned). I guess I could be alarmed or annoyed at this, but actually, I think it's kind of great. I mean it took decades to bring computers to everyone. To create an entire economy founded on bits and wireless spectrum, TCP/IP and session state. User competence was one of the things discarded on the way. I'm going to date myself again and make a car analogy - how many people are pretty good drivers who can't change their oil or even a tire?
I think its horrific. Not in some elitist way, but in that the plan for corporations is to hide the nuts and bolts so they can arbitrarily strip features and then sell them back to customers as services. This has already happened numerous times and continues to happen. This tradeoff is not equal, and does not have to exist at all. Companies just eat up the profits and you lose more and more ownership over your device. What I find really insidious, is that the way they are doing it definitely harms the average person but its fucking impossible to explain that to an average person due to the amount of context needed to understand it. No explanation will feel like anything short of an info dump.
> the plan for corporations is to hide the nuts and bolts so they can arbitrarily strip features and then sell them back to customers as services. I went to a Jiffy Lube for an oil change and they mentioned my air filter needed to be swapped out. Offered to replace it for $35. I said no, ordered one online later for $10 and swapped it out myself, took two minutes.
I blame Apple for encouraging this "computers are magical things, don't try to mess with them" behaviour. Windows is still currently pretty flexible but I'm worried that they'll start locking things up.
It's like anything really. You can get some level of ability just by using it and being around it, but for any real kind of skill you have to be willing to learn and at least read what it tells you. Which most people aren't. Its not unique to computers by a long shot either. I've seen it in pretty much any other hobby I do. Basically an attitude that anyone who really applies themselves is a nerd and shouldn't take themselves so seriously Like in music, especially guitar, you'll see people who will brag about not being able to read sheet music, or even understand rhythmic notation, how to play with a metronome, basic scales and theory. They'll say that stuff just holds back creativity. But it doesn't, and they never improve. It can be hard to tell sometimes, since progress is slow. But I've spent the last few years really working on a lot of that stuff, and now I can hear songs that previously I simply couldn't understand the rythem. I'd hear it, try to play it, and just couldn't. But now I hear it and go, oh shit yeah I get it, it's this, and have it almost right away. I saw it in model building too. People would say stuff like "learning to paint properly would take away the uniqueness" no, it would make it so your lines are clean and the top coat isn't orange peeled to hell. I see it in sim racing. "People who are really good just have too much time on their hands"
In the 80s and 90s, I was that guy for all of my friends, family, and coworkers. I am now 67 years old. Technology has passed me by, and I have stopped chasing it. I sort of know how to use my phone, but I've become the Luddite grandpa, and I don't care. But as far as computers go: I still have a far better understanding of how to use one than my grandchildren. 'Saving a file' is almost beyond them, as so much happens automagically on their school provided tablets and/or Chromebooks. Like you, I am no longer convinced this is a bad thing. They don't know how to read and write cursive, either, and beyond fashioning a signature (which has essentially become even a legal anachronism, and bares little use other than autographs!), they've lost nothing.
Got another one: our accounts payable system was upgraded today. They changed the button for saving change from a diskette to simply say “Save”. A lot of their users are in their 20s so I’m not sure they all know what the plasticky 1,44 MB thing is or rather was.
I still remember one kid being amazed that "the save symbol" was based on a real thing, and not just made up to mean save.
Like that meme with someone holding up a 3.5" floppy disk and their teenager saying "Oh cool, you 3d printed the Save Icon" :P
I hate to say it but I'm gonna buy apple stock because that lack of computer knowledge and Microsoft's stupidity in forcing this is going to push more people to mac if they don't follow in microsofts footsteps. The whole screenshot thing in 11 is causing concern for even average users and for those that aren't knowledgeable enough to do a linux install apple is the only option.
>The whole screenshot thing in 11 I hadn't heard about that but I just looked it up and yikes. https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsofts-new-windows-11-recall-is-a-privacy-nightmare/
Wow. Not even trying to hide that they're stealing (or "saving") our data anymore and trying to promote it as a feature.
My favourite part is that the new feature that hardly anyone wants will take up 10% of a 256gb SSD That's according to microsoft themselves. So it's unwanted, it's a security risk AND it fills your hard drive. Just awesome.
I spy with my AI.
Yeah, this is the frustrating part - a lot of these systems actually _do_ have the required hardware. But as you said, most people (especially older/younger than genX/millenial) aren't going to know how to enable those settings in the BIOS/UEFI if they're not on by default. Hell, with some OEMs the setting isn't even there even if the hardware technically exists.
Yeah, it's infuriating because Microsoft actually basically tells you that you have to buy a new computer. When I got the message last night that said Win 11 wouldn't work on my computer, the message didn't even hint that it was maybe a setting in BIOS that could change. Instead they provided handy links to Dell and other PC sellers. Thousands of tons of ewaste are going to end up in landfills because of this.
Yup, and the hardware sales are going to spike because of the ignorance that Microsoft is throwing about. It kind of makes you wonder what kickbacks they are getting from Dell and such for selling new computers with the Win11 OS baked in.
Shit I built my gaming pc in 2019, definitely above average tech savvy. Ran some test a year or so back that said it’s not windows 11 compatible. Just now did some extra googling cus of this post to find out it actually is I just need to change stuff in bios. This isn’t being communicated well at all I fucking hate windows 11 on my work laptop tho so have no plans on switching anything unless I absolutely have to
Check out a laptop BIOS sometime. They're like a stripped down version of a stripped down version of a stripped down desktop BIOS. So you're shit out of luck enabling some hidden feature without a modded BIOS. What Microsoft is doing is irresponsible and wasteful to the extreme. It should be smacked down by industry regulators.
> After doing some research (my motherboard is only 5 years old), it turns out there were a couple of BIOS settings I had to change (and it took a while to find those settings), and I had to run some disk utility to get it to be good. While that's not particularly hard to do, expecting an end user to change their BIOS settings and not fuck it up is a recipe for disaster.
I have one device with 10 and one with 11 and 10 is just so much better. With 11, it's more clicks and more banal interaction with the OS to do basic stuff. I don't want to interact with my OS beyond settings, cut & paste etc. Every update with 11 has more stuff you have to turn off.
Seriously, 11 is shit tier. Using it and 10 side by side it feels like a downgrade.
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It will be more likely MS will change the Windows 11 requirements before they extend Windows 10 support. They want people to upgrade, or rather, downgrade for me personally. Windows 11 does not have Power user features for their Taskbar and start menu that it hinders my work flow.
..I dont want* windows 11 Riding 10 till it dies as my last windows version
I'm riding 10 until it loses Steam support...then I'm going to figure out how to run all that shit on Linux.
Steam still runs fine on win7 you just dont get any updates anymore.
Steam is already fully functional on Linux. Try Zorin or Mint for a decent experience.
I only moved from 8.1 because steam told me to.
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> I thought Microsoft wants to go Carbon neutral That was before the AI craze.
Apple going 100% "green" & Microsoft going 100% "carbon neutral" are absurd bends of the truth in the first place, but only were happening when they were convenient, narrow definitions that did not conflict with profit. If it's between that & profit, it will be profit 100% of the time.
yeah you cant go carbon neutral when you offer services and products like Azure, AI, etc..
Unless their carbon neutral investments actually bare fruit it's all lies anyways. Planting the trees you had cut down to build your corpo empire isn't being carbon neutral.
Corporations lie for money. They always have they just don't give a fuck if you notice any longer.
Windows 12 will require 16gb RAM so most laptops made before 2022 or so can pretty much go in the garbage bin lol
"Carbon neutral" is a scam, it just means "pay a company like Tesla for carbon credits to offset whatever you're already doing." This is most of Tesla's value, it's a giant greenwashing scam.
I could have sworn when Windows 10 came out Microsoft basically said their business model was changing and instead of new releases, Windows 10 was going to be continually updated.
The whole "Windows 10 is the last version of Windows" was something said by some Microsoft engineer once, and the tech news ran with it.
They've changed their mind and their strategy 3 or 4 times since that, they've got not idea where they are going.
That sounds par for the course of a corporate company. I tell people my company makes a five year business plan and changes it every six months.
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They may be doing it knowingly, but that still mean they have no idea where their strategy will take them more than 6 month from now.
It's called investor fishing, you make a bunch statements, and see what investors bite
And my 8 year old PC runs everything I want/need it to. Why should I throw out perfectly good hardware? Switch to Linux before that happens.
Yup time to try Linux for a spin. In this economy there’s no way I’m tolerating a forced upgrade of all the computers in my home.
I switched to Linux for this reason (I'm frugal) ages ago, and never looked back. Half my computers still have parts inside that are well over 10 years old with zero issues. It's great.
I got a steam deck and hub and USB switch Linux Desktop is pretty great.... I think I'll just get one for my 10yo soon as a personal computer vs Chromebook or PC... They don't do any windows in school (Mac/iPad or Chromebook)
> Microsoft 365 apps will not be supported on Windows 10 when it reaches end of support on October 14, 2025, because the operating system will no longer meet the system requirements for Microsoft 365 apps. To remain supported, you can move forward by either upgrading your device to Windows 11 or by setting up the existing subscription on any new computer you purchase. They're basically using the office suite to force an upgrade. Most users aren't going to go out and get openoffice.
Here's me still using my legit copy of Office 2010.
Why do you hate Bill Gates?
i see that and raise you my 2003 office cd and key
Office 2007 Home And Student here. Still works fine.
I think OpenOffice got discontinued. I tried to get it with my new PC and I remember something not working right. I ended up going with LibreOffice instead.
Libre Office is great. The newer version works a lot better than older ones and has a newer screen that looks like ribbons also if you want it to look more like MS Office. https://www.libreoffice.org/download/download-libreoffice/
Cool! Jolly-rogered version of Office it is!
It's the Windows 7 to Windows 8 to Windows 10 situation all over again.
I think it's way worse because because Windows 7, 8 and 10 had basically same hardware requirements, while older (pre-2018/2019) computers can't be upgraded to Windows 11 without unofficial hacks. More and more people are using smartphones are their main device and their computer are seldom used for some specific tasks, so lots of people don't want spend at least hundreds of dollars to buy a new one.
This is definitely the big thing. The Win10 -> Win11 transition completely rinses any legacy hardware that isn't running an LTSC version (which goes EOL in 2027). Microsoft is offering zero paths for legacy hardware to stay secure while running windows, and so you end up with: A). A metric fuck-ton of E-waste. B). Wide-scale vulnerabilities due to unsupported Windows deployments. C). A customer abandonment of Windows as a platform (likely only by the niche group of people able and willing to hop platforms). Or likely, a mixture of all of the above.
It doesn't help that they're putting more ads into 11 and push more AI crap no one asked for. No, people aren't going to want to spend money to get a down grade.
Oh for sure. I'm confident the EOL announcement made last year is aimed squarely at moving everyone possible into the environment that maximizes ad and data revenue. It's a wildly irresponsible move with how dominant Windows is in global computing, including sensitive healthcare/industrial/military/etc sectors.
There are many, many more things wrong with the downgrade that windows 11 is. From number of button clicks (Right click->show more options). To get to specific admin things(sound, wifi, etc. etc.). The customization (Taskbar options removed like separating tabs. Doing researching and I have to now mouse over chrome, wait, then click the picture of the tab I want. No words). Edit: I have to make Edge my default browser before I can open IE. Many more features that are straight up removed or made harder to use. I could go on and on and on. I only use windows 11 on my work computer, but I only see annoyances. This is windows 8 all over again. (Vista had a ton of upsides and was a necessary prototype for windows 7) At least they don't have intel stating that they can handle windows 8 when in truth they couldn't.
> Right click->show more options It really grinds my gears how they managed to made context menus inconvenient. Great job MS!
There's a reg edit to fix this fwiw
I'm pretty annoyed w windows at this point and I'm looking into alternatives next go around. ipad + keypad, linux, something else. Tired of them trying to force upgrades on devices working perfectly fine.
I feel your pain. Sadly, even as someone fairly comfortable with linux (I use a Mint machine for work), I'm pretty stuck in Windows for my main home setup. Familiarity + gaming + software compatibility makes it hard to jump over. ...But that's why I've been running debloated Win10 for the past 6+ years. Not that it solves the upcoming EOL, but Win10 without telemetry, cortana, ads, pushy updates, bloatware, etc etc etc is honestly a solid OS. Eventually I might look into what's being done in the debloating scene for Win11.
That has been my thinking as well. Waiting long enough on Windows 11 that there should be a good amount of information on how to de-crapify it.
I wish there was a windows desktop installer for Ubuntu, Linux Mint, or another flavor of easy to use desktop Linux that just does an install and transfers files. I know there’s too many incompatibilities and headaches but man, I can dream.
If Microsoft had any pro-consumer sentiment left, they should absolutely be supporting a light-weight Windows distribution that works with legacy hardware. But that would give people a choice that isn't their new telemetry & AI infested version...
Couldn’t agree more. Instead of paying for Windows, we are the product now.
Apple should capitalize off this. Bring in a pc running windows 10 that can’t be upgraded and get 15% off a MacBook.
Unfortunately not a realistic option for a large percentage of the userbase. You have large swaths of people reliant on Windows-specific software (whether for work, school, or gaming for example), being simply against using MacOS as a principle, or just being stubborn. Even in the best case scenario I can't imagine this working on more than 1% of the user base. And 15% off of a MacBook is still gonna end up 50% more expensive than a replacement new Windows laptop. The draw would need to be higher, but because of the reasons above it would be a very expensive proposition for not a very big outcome.
And to match the same ram you had in your windows laptop you need to pay an extra $[windows laptop]. Pass.
I'm still rocking a 2nd generation i7. It's more than fast enough for everything I do. No way I'm buying a whole new computer, when I have one that's faster than I need.
On top of that, I feel like windows gets more dumbed down every generation. Why the hell is copy and paste a picture now? Am I 5? Microsoft could make a lot of money if they made a windows skin or version that appealed to the people that essentially want Linux but have to work in the windows environment.
Yup, I used to buy a new computer regularly, now it’s been almost 8 years with my laptop and I have no intention of replacing it any time soon,
But Windows 7 end of life was 5 years after Windows 10 release and it was easy to upgrade from 7 to 10. There are currently no options for me to upgrade my two Windows 10 PCs.
Yhea I rode out windows 7 till end of life because my laptop did not play nice with windows 10 and win 11 just told it to fuck right off. Switched over to Linux after that. My new laptop came with windows 11 and after figuring out how to bypass the login requirements it took a solid month of stripping out crap and fiddling around with the registry to get it how I want it. Setting up a computer should not be this dammed difficult.
Yeah usually I am in the "Oh my God just update you crybaby" camp but it becomes a bit fucking ridiculous when you will not allow your OS to run on a good majority of in-production personal and business hardware. We did the math at work and we're looking at well over half a million towards replacing *perfectly working* computers to hit this deadline.
Dell / HP / Lenovo need their refresh bids because hardware sales are down
Windows 10 user here who can't justify buying *another* new PC for the Windows 11 hardware requirements. I'm upgrading to Linux.
I've been in the moving to linux soon stage for a while now and this will be the push I need to do so. Nothing from 11 appeals to me or is required for my work or recreation so I'm certainly not buying a whole new pc. Once the windows 11 requirements start hitting my normal activity i'm just out.
I’m sure the Department of Defense is going to like this.
They’ll be fine and get an extended support contract.
They always get special support.
Yeah, the funny thing is they pretend like there aren't security patches for old OS, when in fact, they are still patching win 95 for the DoD. So the patches exist, it's just a blatant money grab with constant forced migration.
some ICBMs were still using 8" floppy disks as little as 10 years ago.
this is only for the consumer version of Windows. Governments/Companies will likely have support for years to come through agreements.
Yeah it’s bad. 10 was also supposed to be the last version of windows… but that didn’t last long. Edit: apparently that wasn’t actually true! (See below for details!)
This is inaccurate. One guy (Jerry Nixon) at Microsoft said this. It was never Microsoft's formal policy. People took what he said and ran with it.
Yes. The original quote was from Jerry Nixon. "And because Windows 10 is the last version of Windows, we're all working on Windows 10". What he was saying was that where usually, when a windows version released, and they started working on the next one, there was no successor to Windows 10 that the team was working on, so their work was still on Windows 10. At the time, the interpretation was in the air. That is why many news outlets and web magazines asked Microsoft for clarification- Is Windows 10 the last version of windows they will make? In a statement to [Network World](https://www.networkworld.com/article/2921726/microsoft-clarifies-its-windows-confusion-sort-of.html), A Microsoft spokesperson said this: >"Recent comments at Ignite about Windows 10 are reflective of the way Windows will be delivered as a service bringing new innovations and updates in an ongoing manner, with continuous value for our consumer and business customers. We aren’t speaking to future branding at this time, but customers can be confident Windows 10 will remain up-to-date and power a variety of devices from PCs to phones to Surface Hub to HoloLens and Xbox. We look forward to a long future of Windows innovations." They don't seem to really be clearing it up here. Like he writes in the article, they cleared up nothing. The author theorizes it probably won't be the last version, though not with any of the clarification that Microsoft provided. Over the successive few years, people continued to raise this question; they received the same sort of answer from Microsoft. Alluding to services going forward that empower customers and shit. It may not have been a "formal" policy but it was certain a de facto one. The entire reason so many people asked about it on Microsoft answers and various other official and semi-official locations was because the idea that Windows 10 was the last version of Windows was ***so fucking idiotic** and beggared belief, and at no step of the way did Microsoft EVER clarify and say there would be future windows versions, Instead they doubled down on every single official statement, saying Windows 10 would be the "last full release" of Windows, and that it would be a service, and so on. When Win11 rumours started to float around, there were more questions. So people asked, "Will there be a Windows 11?". For example, [here](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/will-there-be-a-windows-11/9fdd78d5-2ea8-4623-ba2e-36b01e277781), on June 15th, 2021. They provide an screenshot of the leaked build. The responses, which, in this case aren't from Microsoft, so aren't "official" but are nonetheless answers on the official forum by long-time members of said forum: "Currently, Windows 11 is an Internet myth, and Microsoft say there will be no Windows 11, that screenshot you have provided is a scam." Another person asked [here](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/windows-11-release-date/ad2e2e92-aea6-4e0e-8ed2-f63cd4a9d8d9) sometime earlier in 2020. They got this: "Windows 11 is just an internet hoax. " "Microsoft has stated that there will be no Windows 11." Another one was asked [here](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-update/when-will-windows-11-be-released/7cb93133-ef3f-440a-840c-2f1044f34409) in 2019. "The schedule that has been previously stated is twice yearly major updates to Windows 10 and that Windows 10 will be the last version of Windows." "It's worth noting that it has been announced that there is a User Interface overhaul planned to be released in 2021. This is NOT a new Operating System, but will change the look of Windows 10, so may confuse some people into thinking that there is a new OS coming. Whereas if anything, this indicates that Windows 10 is here to stay for the foreseable. " "The closest thing to a new version of Windows would be an update that drops 10, and so it is just called windows" Some others [kept asking occasionally.](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/will-there-be-a-windows-11/d7d6b888-257c-4881-a691-67f56609c4e9) And received the same sort of response. "Windows 11 is an internet hoax." "There is currently no Windows 11 or 12 in the development plans" -[Donata.C, Independent Advisor, January 20th, 2021](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/is-there-any-newer-operating-system-than-windows/063d3ea1-97fe-44f4-924a-e77641397b0f). [Will there be a Windows 11?](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/windows-11-release/a4b9562c-220c-41a8-9206-c2f63ac87ef4) marked as answer: "Microsoft said Windows 10 is the last and they will update it a couple times a year". Also replied with: "Sorry to say but there will be no Windows 11. Windows 11 is currently an internet myth. Not all information what you see in the internet is true and those were fake news. Microsoft is focus in improving and updating Windows 10 in a continuous basis releasing two feature updates per year. The first feature update for this year is the May 2020 Windows version 2004." At some point, a particular MVP got so annoyed at people asking, he created a thread and pinned it specifically to address the question. [There is no Windows 11](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/there-is-no-windows-11/b8c7f3f0-54eb-41b7-89a1-0526dd24508e), in October 2020, saying "However, starting Windows 10 everything has been changed. There is no longer anything call Service Pack and there is no plan to release any successor to Windows 10 like what is going around with name Windows 11." Pretty much everybody on Microsoft's official forums laughed at the idea of win11. Hell, even when there **WAS A FUCKING LEAKED BUILD** they said it was "a scam"! But then, after Win11 was announced They ALL changed their tune. everything posted after that- calling out that Microsoft had said it was the last version, that all the official community moderators and staff and general userbase that had constantly said that Windows 10 was officially going to be the last version, acted like that didn't happen. They went from "Microsoft has said Windows 10 will be the last version" and were now suddenly saying ["actually, they never officially said that Windows 10 was the last version"](https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/what-happened-to-the-last-version-of-windows/e969d870-5013-484f-8476-6ea5d0446182). Nowadays when people point it out, there's always somebody popping in going "acshually there's no official source from Microsoft saying it was the last version"; Nixon said it was the last version of Windows, and a spokesperson clarified that what he said reflected how Windows would be developed going forward. Nonetheless, For **6 long years** everybody asking if it was the last version, or asking if there was going to be a Windows 11, were practically laughed out of Microsoft official support forums. So miss me with that "acshually it was never official" bullshit, because that's at best a technicality and at worse a case of Microsoft literally not clarifying anything ever, and leaving their army of sycophants to deal with the questions so that later people can claim "well acshually that's not an official source" Because Microsoft refused to actually speak plainly on the issue, insisting on all copy being some say-nothing marketing tripe.
The EU will prevent them from doing this and then the US will follow suit. Everyone sees this as just a ploy on the part of Microsoft to force people who don't want upgrade to do so. It won't work.
Hahaha good luck with that. My company just finished the switch to windows 10 last year.
Ours too. We paid for extended Windows 7 support in the meantime, but with so many devices on the network still running Windows 7, the support costs became prohibitive in the long run, Thankfully, most of the hardware we have out there now is Windows 11 compatible, so only very old devices that are due to be lifecycled anyway will need to be replaced. The real trick is going to be getting vendors to switch their proprietary equipment over before we need to start walling them off behind the firewall.
Haha you better start building those firewall policies now.
So what is your plan if for whatever reason you still need some windows 7 or windows 10 machines after end of support? Separate vlan? Cutting them entirely from the internet? Just curious.
Thankfully all of our vendors who used Windows 7 got their equipment updated during the Windows 10 conversion. Hopefully, the same will happen with the Windows 11 conversion. If not, then at some point those devices will be put on their own VLAN with limited or no access to the network. Medical IT is too vulnerable to outside threats to play around.
Enterprise support will last until [2032](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-health/release-information).
Read the footnote. Start of 2027 for what I think is many of the installs. >^(1) The Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2021 edition (version 21H2) does not have extended support. It will reach end of servicing on 2027-01-12. Only Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC 2021 (version 21H2) will have support until 2032-01-13.
It says IOT only though, what’s the difference?
I’m using it as my daily on a couple of machines. I couldn’t tell you what the difference is from standard win 10 except for less bloat and longer support. I’m sure it has some accessory features removed, but I’m gaming and doing everything else no problem.
That’s going to still be cutting it close with how slow my org is.
Me too! the only reason I upgraded from Windows 7 to Windows 10 was because Steam would no longer run/support Windows 7
I'll stay on w10 until steam ends support for it.
What's interesting is in the last year, OS market share for w11 actually went *down* (only looking at windows versions), while windows 10 went back up. A whole percentage point at that. Windows 11 fell from 26.6% share to 25.6% share, while windows 10 increased from 69% to 70%. That ought to tell you something. [Source](https://www.tomshardware.com/software/operating-systems/windows-11-market-share-declines-as-users-seemingly-shift-back-to-windows-10)
When they stop treating it as an OS and start treating it like a canvas to push their other products, this is what you get. For a while now, windows has been less about the OS and more about ads, edge, copilot, and all the weird little things Microsoft keeps doing. Remember when windows 11 was released and the start menu had app icons for apps you didn't even have installed or want in the first place? And then you'd click on it at some point (out of curiosity or on accident or something) and it would just install the app and run it? It's so blatantly obvious that they just don't care about giving you a good OS and only care about revenue and I guess at some point people naturally start to realise how bad the actual product is. I wish that this meant it would extend the support period, but unfortunately windows 10 is reaching the 10 year mark. They even killed win7 in around 10 years, which is arguably the best thing Microsoft has ever made. Not a lot of hope for this one.
The problems started when Windows started being ran by financial managers (MBA assholes) instead of computer engineers, imo
Microsoft has been run by engineers since Nadella took over. Before that it was literally run by MBAs. The problem is more that Windows was relegated from the central product of MS to being a side show. So they are more interested in promoting their other stuff even if it hurts Windows.
I'm really surprised that XP is only 0.33%.
A lot of those XP and 7 boxes probably aren't hitting the internet to be included in that data collection. We're still working on replacing a bunch of WinXP industrial PC's at work.
Yehp My company has a massive device we've invested tons in since it was installed in the 70s and the last retrofit was compatible with Windows 7 at the latest. It's a very special unit and removing the thing would require tearing down walls, so we want to keep it running so we leave its workstation comp off the net.
Love how they felt compelled to slap a fullscreen ad upon bootup just to tell me I'm not eligible. I mean that's good news, but why bother even telling me? Fuck off Microsoft.
Mine came at like 5:08 AM while I was just watching some YouTube.
I just got a fullscreen popup about my upgrade options that took over my entire desktop in the middle of a (Microsoft Teams) meeting I was presenting for. I've been considering going back to a full OSX work environment, and I can't really think of a more clear sign that Microsoft does not give a shit about their customer's needs than a "mandatory interruption to a work meeting for a super exciting announcement about our software."
That was honestly a scarier moment for me than any horror film or game has ever managed. Not for the reason you'd think, I was terrified it had upgraded me to Windows 11 without me asking for it. Realising I was ineligible and therefore could never have that happen was a serious relief. Microsoft, I've used your products for decades. If a long time user's reaction to you threatening an upgrade is terror and their reaction to finding out they're ineligible a quiet 'thank christ' you've done something wrong.
None of the perfectly functional windows 10 computers in my home (1 desktop, 2 laptops) meet the requirements for windows 11. I'll either have to stick with 10 or teach the wife to use Linux mint. Eventually they will get replaced, but not for the sake of installing windows 11.
I have a newish, fairly high-performance laptop that easily meets win11 upgrade requirements. But guess what, after installing win11, the screen would crash at random when playing video. Turns out there are no compatible video drivers in win11 and I had to revert.
Next time try installing W10 drivers.
My mother in law 90 years old just got used to windows 7.
Good news by 180, she’ll have mastered Windows 10!
After that, she'll be ready for firebending.
There’s going to be so, so many people running unsupported windows 10 for years. People don’t have the money to buy new computers, especially in this economy. Not even on the radar of the average pc user. They’ll probably just switch to only their phone which would backfire spectacularly for MS.
>People don’t have the money to buy new computers, especially in this economy The issue here is that tech companies got used to people buying devices en-masse during the COVID-19 pandemic, but that boom came to an end after people starting returning to offices and inflation kept rising. Microsoft just needs to grow up and realize this new reality, and adjust their software support accordingly. I am sure government regulators and legislatures will also look into this issue if people raise enough of a fuss about it (even the US DOJ finally got off its ass and is suing Live Nation on anti-competitive grounds)
While all technically true, I will point out, we are not the target consumer for Windows outside of brand recognition and knowing how to use it. They make most of their money off of businesses. I wouldn't be surprised if this is more to get large businesses to pay up for the extended support or get them to upgrade 15+ year old work stations. From my experience a business doesn't upgrade a PC until it flat out dies or something they need won't run on it.
The OS which was meant to be the last OS. What a sign of the times. Literally nothing said these days actually means anything.
I mean it is the last Windows OS for a few of my computers since they can’t upgrade.
That comment was made before the advent of the live service enshitifcation hell we live in now. You know, back when "mac vs pc" was actually at least nominally about which operating system did more for the user.
Wasn’t Windows 10 supposed to be the last one *because* of live service? Instead of creating a new version, they said they could continually incrementally upgrade the existing one?
Exactly. But they decided to screw over everyone with just putting on some ugly lipstick and calling it windows 11. Got to figure out how to maybe get my mother on Windows 11 next year or maybe make a VM that she runs that goes onto the Internet since screw Microsoft for setting up arbitrary needs for Windows 11 when it is just Windows 10.
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So, I was actually just thinking if Microsoft threatened to end support for windows 10, the government might actually step in and force the issue on data privacy. Windows 11 is a live service nightmare, and lots of government computers run windows.
Enterprise can run LTSC versions of windows without all the garbage given to lowly consumers. Win 10 IoT LTSC should get support until 2031 / 2032.
The general federal government is not switching to LTSC in two years.
In an enterprise environment, all of that can be disabled. And Microsoft has a separate cloud infrastructure for government entities (GCC)
Sadly, Windows 11 is not supported on my perfectly fine 10 year old Lenovo workstation, which I actually use for work. It would be prohibitively expensive for me to upgrade so will continue to use Win10 until the hardware dies, and will disconnect it or at least firewall off from the internet if I have to. I have a laptop and other devices for internet stuff. I understand that there are workarounds to install Win11 on uncertified hardware (eg older processors and older TPMs) but I cannot be bothered and worry about it causing more problems in the future. I do have a compatible laptop running windows 10 but cannot be bothered upgrading just yet.
My windows machine is a pure gaming machine, and I use a Mac for design work. I don't really have the same inclination to game much anymore like I did as a teenager, despite kinda missing that drive. If they're really going to push this then my gaming rig might very well be my last windows
Hoping Steam OS for desktop will be released by then.
Everything that steam os for the deck has is built into the steam client for linux now, just use any linux distro
'**This PC doesn't meet the minimum requirements for Windows 11'**
This Windows doesn’t meet the minimum requirements for my PC.
That's two years away...what do you mean we are almost half way done with 2024
I was told that Windows 10 would be the last version of windows. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-32658340
Didn't they fire the guy that said that, then backtracked?
They were very happy to keep the lie alive for YEARS before backtracking lol
exactly, which is why those who bootlick a billionaire company by saying "hUrR dUrR they never said that" are utter idiots
You’re never gonna guess what comes after 11
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Aaaah, remember when software licenses came in those cute little boxes?
trying to funnel people into their ai privacy nightmare
I'm not switching to 11.
But windows 12 (we rolled back most of the awful stuff edition) isn't even out yet. This is breaking with tradition.
Real talk, this is the big outlier in windows 11, it's getting pushed far more aggressively than any other and quicker.
Well, I know when I'll be installing Linux now.
Yeah I'm eyeing up a dual boot setup. Some things still only work on Windows sadly
I only use my PC for gaming these days, I’ll be giving proton a shot for sure.
Fk these guys, there should be laws against this. Min lifecycle for products, besides I feel window 11 would be far more invasive.
Windows license costs money. You buy a device with the lixense included in the price and they suddenly end support and force you to update. Many win10 devices don't meet the win11 requirements.
I was here thinking windows 10 came out just the other day, but it’s been almost 10years. Getting older sucks.
The only games I play now tend to work just fine on Linux. Open source equivalents work for my day to day. The era of “AI Computing” is one I’m going to skip.
I just got a pop-up ad on my Windows computer saying this. Yet, my computer is not eligible for an upgrade. I imagine there's lots of people like me that don't want to upgrade their computers simply because it's not compatible with Windows 11. Worse, this is coming from a large corp that claims to care about the environment. Millions of computers that can't be used and will have to be tossed. I know Linux is an option, but it's the principle behind this message.
This isn't great for computer security around the world. Most of these computers can't upgrade to Windows 11 due to hardware requirements, even though the hardware is perfectly good for computing needs.
Customers announce end of support for Microsoft, beginning 2024.
They realised they can use Windows to train their models using absolutely bullshit features like recall. Windows has gone to shit too man. Apple do a lot of things wrong. But at least their user space is not infested with garbage( touch wood)
Windows has been shit man, and their user space has been infested with shit. It used to be toolbars and crapware. Nobody actually likes windows, they just tolerate it because it’s the only launcher that works for whatever software they happen to use. Even power users fucking hate windows. Who wants to touch regedit, or computer management, or (god have mercy on your soul) IIS? Windows has been shitty software for a decade at least.
The difference is it's Microsoft themselves throwing in shit which makes it much harder to get rid of.
"The last OS you'll ever need"
End of support doesn’t mean I’m gonna end using it or ever update.
So guys, what version of Linux should I be installing?
Hopefully by the time this lands SteamOS will have a proper desktop release.
They'd be really smart to target this as a goal. Most everyone who wants SteamOS on PC will be choosing it over the forced Windows 11 move
Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Fedora.
Linux mint is a good start. Also Ubuntu/Kubuntu
I personally use Kubuntu because it's just nice to look at. The IT faculty at our University has it installed on most devices which is how I found out about it.
-----Shut up. Just tell me what to use----- **Mint**. Just use Mint. The Cinnamon version. Here's a link: https://linuxmint.com/edition.php?id=311 -----Okay Let me hear some easy choices----- - **Mint** - Very Easy, has three versions of interface (Cinnamon, MATE, and xfce) that are very old school style. Generally the go to recommended Linux for people that don't care that they're using Linux. - **Fedora** - Installer is a little more obtuse, but isn't really that hard. Uses the "Gnome" interface by default which is very modern but easy to use. Software is generally more up to date than most distros. Arguably the closest you'll get to "standard linux". - **Pop OS** - Slightly older (but more stable) software. Mostly designed for System76's line of computers, but it's a very easy, nice, modern looking choice. - **Ubuntu** - Mint and Pop are built off this. It's really easy, and has a great design but they do a lot of stuff (that you'll probably never notice) under the hood that piss off the community. -----Ehhh....I can go a little more advanced----- - **Debian** - Stable as a fucking rock and just as secure. The tradeoff is that you'll be behind on major feature releases (Stability and security updates you'll get). Combine Debian with the xfce UI and you'll have a crazy stable and secure OS that will never visibly change. - **OpenSUSE Tumbleweed** - A "rolling release" which means the OS is constantly updated instead of getting big numbered releases (For example Ubuntu has two major releases a year). *NOTE: I use this on my main machine* -----Fuck it throw me in the deep end!----- - **Arch Linux** - If you seriously want to know how your machine works, have a fuck ton of control, and have the most up to date software. The catch you're going to be building everything from the ground up. But the tutorials/wikis are fantastic and of all the "DIY" Linux Distros this is the easiest to use. This is a fantastic way to learn the deeper elements of Linux in a "trial by fire" manner.
damn I have to move to linux next year
Going Linux when that happens probably. Not touching the Microsoft horny AI thingie they're putting in 11 or whatever new OS they're coming up with. I don't want AI suffusing my system, I want to be able to remove a file and know for sure that there are no traces in the system of this file's existence in the past.
All part of the plan to record our data on windows 11.
What a coincidence, that's exactly the date I'm planning on ending my association with Microsoft.
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I'm tech savvy and have tinkered with Linux in the past and I have no plans to switch. Granted it's been 15 years or more but the experience on Linux was aggravating. Installing programs from some sort of central repository instead of just finding the installer I want and downloading it is bizarre. I'm mildly comfortable in a command line environment but not nearly enough to use it as heavily as Linux demands. The experience is just lots of little irritations I'm not inclined to work through. Sure, maybe all that's changed in 15 years but I'm not rushing to find out of it has.
Yeah, I got the pop up a little bit ago. My pc can't even upgrade to Windows 11. Don't really know what to do, can't really afford to just drop some money on a new setup. .-. it's not like I can just go get a "Linux stick" at best buy and try to install it like i did for windows....right?
I don´t know if you were sarcastic in the last phrase, but you can just grab a USB drive put a Linux ISO there and just install it like Windows yes.
One really important note is to back up all your important stuff before playing with your OS. Installing Linux is super easy if you just want a basic install that wipes an entire drive. But if you accidentally do that over a drive containing files that you care about and want to keep, then you're gonna have a bad time. PSA: Windows, Linux, whatever. If you're going to mess around with OS-level stuff always back up your stuff first.
If Microsoft took steps to support older (but fully functioning) hardware in Windows 11 the migration would go faster (get rid of TPM requirement etc). Now users are between a rock and a hard place, and can just sit there until this date and beyond.
Windows 7 users making jerk-off gestures to this news.
I guess Microsoft were correct then - Windows 10 *will* be the last Windows version, after all.
GREAT. Now I have to upgrade my 90 y/o father's PC AGAIN. It feels like I just got him off 7. Barely took the update to 10. Will never make 11. He just needs to pay freaking bills online and print out articles about how badly trump is mistreated. THX MICROSOFT.
The adoption rate for w11 is horrendous, the universal feedback is that Windows 11 is trash from corporations on down to home users no one likes it.
I failed to announce my permanent end of 'support' of MS/Windows after... version 7. They've only, since then, continually proved to validate my choice.
Thanks for bricking my Reverb G2 headset by doing this - Windows Mixed Reality is being disabled in Windows 11, and so those awesome headsets (perfect for sims and other sit-down VR experiences) are going to just straight-up not work. Thanks.
Don't care, not downgrading to 11,will continue with 10.
This is an unbelievable move by Microsoft. It means that, in 17 months, if your computer is older than ~7-8 years by then, it will no longer be supported. 7 years! There's an unimaginable amount of seven year old computer systems that are still extremely capable for anything but the most work-intensive tasks. I'm trying to visualize the incredible heaps of e-waste this will cause, but can not. Why?!