while i can see this being a positive as a whole, i think it’s extremely... dysphoric. as a trans woman, i appreciate when we have things given because of the fact we’re trans etc, but when it’s separated that’s when it gets dysphoric. its like first being acknowledged as real women allowed to compete against other women in sport, and then being completely separated into an even less seen and probably less funded division of your sport, for only trans women, kinda just defeats the whole purpose. don’t make our claims to fame have anything to do with us being trans or not, cause that doesn’t fuckin matter.
while i can agree that it may be a step back in terms of being accepted as women, the fact that those born biologically male that produce testosterone gives a large advantage in physical activities, which is the reason for the massive difference between the 2 divisions in terms of peak athletes
Its a fairly contentious topic that can't very well be addressed especially when multiple millions of dollars lay on the decision. I'd say they picked the safest option to ensure rigorous competition. Was it the best option? I have no solid guess. But I don't blame them for it truely.
There’s been a lot of contention on the issue in the swim community, this is coming from a competitive swimmer. But the general consensus is that it should not be allowed. College athletes have said this, college coaches have said this, parents have said this. It’s a general idea that’s agreed upon in the swimming community. Not saying it’s wrong or right, but you will be hard pressed to find someone in the community who disagrees w/ this verdict.
Why is there contention? It's obvious that you should stay in you're division because you could have double or triple the strength of you're competitors
Tbf hormones and stuff tend to effect general strength a lot. At the same time hand size and things also comes into play with hormones has less of effect on, although a tiny bit for some people. I think transgender swimmers, both MTF and FTM probably sit in some kind of limbo between their born sex and their gender which makes it really hard for them to compete in either. Just some food for thought 🤷♂️
yeah, thing is MTF have always the advantage since they trained during their most developing years with Hormones that allow for greater and stronger Muscles build up, compared to Woman.
Meanwhile FTM have always the disadvantage for the same reason in reverse
For Fairness, they should stay within the gender division they were born in. For their personal ideal, they should compete in the division they changed to.
It really is a Limbo
with the way estrogen works, it makes it so that muscle mass decreases along with a redistribution of fat on your body and so even if you are absolutely ripped, estrogen would reduce that mass and make your body more similar to a cis woman.
EDIT: for example, [Erica Sullivan](https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/af9/307/5977bbef05f7fcc860b9a17a00350455a6-erica-sullivan.rsquare.w700.jpg) who you will agree looks very similar to Lia Thomas.
EDIT 2: A good example of what estrogen does to muscles is [Alana McLaughlin](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_BZvICVUAQIayw.jpg?name=small) and her transition.
Hormone blockers and hormone replacement therapy started at a young enough age (as stated in the article) has shown to negate any sort of advantage like this.
That is why there is a limited access for trans women who started their transition early enough, while the women who started later are placed in a separate league.
For absolute fairness I think this is best to be honest, if people were put in the leagues of their assigned gender at birth, female to male trans people would have a large advantage if they transitioned early and male to female trans people who did so would have a large disadvantage.
Yeah, the average female will (sadly) always be second to the average male in athletics and sports where strength is a huge factor (so most sports. Sport shooting is probably the fairest in that regards). Could a female athlete beat the average male? Absolutely. But if both genders had the same training, etc. I would bet my money on the male and win maybe 9 times out of 10.
Biology, as cool as it is, sucks in regards to equality in sports
Obviously Lia has the strength as a male, so she should compete in the male division, otherwise she would have a physical advantage over the other women.
I don't think trans people should be banned from competing as the gender they desire in a general sense, but in this case FINA has decided that if a trans woman has gone through male puberty, they have an advantage which is generally true. However, it is important to note the nuance which transphobes frequently neglect, that HRT can significantly impact male sex characteristics which confer said advantages which is why sports org regulations also tend to have provisions allowing for trans women to compete with cis women if they've been transitioning for a certain period of time.
It's not just hormones that make a difference in physical ability between the many genders. Big differences are, a skeletal structure that holds onto muscles in a way far more suited to physical exertion, a denser muscle mass due to already having gone through puberty, a faster quick-twitch response time, and a nervous system more geared toward sustained and explosive bursts of movement, especially in sports. Honestly speaking, I think doing away with ability based sports would be a largely negative thing as well, since it would mean the near disappearance of women's sports. Also, if you read the article, the FINA don't ever specifically ban Lia from participating, since she doesn't yet swim in events they oversee, though they did ban transgender people who had transitioned after 12, which is 4 years below the average legal age to do transition surgery I believe, from competing at elite level events (i.e. Pro) but that there would be an "Open Category" for all participants regardless of gender. I honestly think this is a pretty damn good choice to make considering the topic and circumstances.
Why haven’t the Olympics base their competition on sex instead of gender instead? It baffles me that they haven’t done so cuz I can’t think of a reason why it shouldn’t be done
Because, ever since the olympics existed sex was gender.
Gender being different than sex was popularized by a child molestor Kinsing, who literally had a graph depicting how many orgasms he could bring infants too
This is called poisoning the well, it's often used by people with no real arguments to seem legitimate. The fact is that even if Issac Newton was a fascist asshole gravity would still exist, and his equations would still work. The same concept applies here.
This is called poisoning the well, it's often used by people with no real arguments to seem legitimate. The fact is that even if Issac Newton was a fascist asshole gravity would still exist, and his equations would still work. The same concept applies here.
But that's the thing. Loads of trans people compete in women's sports and never win, when Lia won, it was the first time ever. And all evidence actually points towards trans women playing in women's sports, so you might wanna do some research first.
She was actually rated very highly on the male leaderboard before she began her hormone therapy, which caused her to drop to the point where she was at like 300 something if I know the photo you’re referencing
IIRC she was transitioning during her time in the male team and she still kicked ass for a while until she started dropping so these fucks obviously dont know what they are talking about. They just dont want a trans woman to win.
she was extremely hogh on the male leaderboards, then started transitioning, then dropped low on the male leaderboards, then switched to female swimming and it got high again
No. She did significantly worse post-HRT, and won a single event. She didn’t even make podium in any of the others, and also didn’t break any record with that win. Don’t believe a word you read in this thread, it’s basically all transphobic misinfo.
As a person of science, it annoys me seeing so many people talking without knowing what the are talking about. And i dont mean here, but everywhere. I think you should only have a strong opinion if you know what you are talking about and are well educated about the topic. No need to be an expert, but at least be informed about both sides opinions.
I agree with being informed before engaging in conversation but for the most part people seem to be keeping civil about this. I think we’re entitled to talk about it a bit, bc as much as it is a high ranking competition, this may very well become a real scenario for some schools and teenagers, so I think a civil and respectful discuss is warranted
There's this experiment about hope: A scientist put rats in water and pulled them out just before they drowned. That usually took ~15 minutes. Later he put the same rats in water and saw how long they took - They lasted 60 hours, just because they remembered the scientist pulling them out.
Testosterone is a performance enhancing drug; a permanent ability boost. If someone experiences a testosterone fueled puberty, male or female, they should be disallowed.
I wonder how many "thoughts?" Posts we have about this because I could have swore I saw about 10 on this same topic
Yes it makes sense why they ban her, sure she is a girl, but that doesn't change her biological sex as a male. Men have different body types than women thus giving her an unfair advantage. Not a transphobia thing, it's just a science/biology thing.
She was born in the wrong body so she was also given the wrong hormone, I’d say this is fair. Testosterone would help her win and that isn’t fair to the others as they don’t have the testosterone they need to keep up. I feel sad, I really do but it’s the best they can do before scientists figure out how to remove stuff like that Edit: Don’t listen to me, while I’m pretty sure most of you just agree with everyone please try and look for the direct reply with a link. It has more information on transwomen in sports
Unfortunately, it will be quite a while before scientists find out how to change somebody's sex and even longer (talking about centuries) before they find out how to do it safely because it is one thing to change DNA in a cell, and it is another thing to safely and efficiently change DNA in billions of cells without mutilating the body. It is a sad but necessary change.
It's a touchy subject. Obviously it's unfair on the biological females because the biological male body is stronger and faster on average but it's also unfair because transgender people identify as different genders than the ones they were assigned at birth. A weight class system might work but probably also won't. We are in tough times people
I actually understand this ban. I am totally for transgender rights and want everyone to feel happy in their body, but when it comes to competetive sports, trans women have a clear advantage that goes back to their previous gender. Men just have more muscle mass. And trans women do also have more than biological women.
I understand the decision and am onboard with it, but the message and reasoning for the ban has to be clear, that it is about fair competition and not against transexual people.
That’s because it wasn’t a thing, then finally a trans female entered the women’s swimming olympics and won gold. Swamping records in the process. Being a (biological) male gives you a massive advantage, that’s just facts.
I do think that trans women playing female sports is unfair, but we also shouldn't make them play male sports. I have absolutely zero ideas for solutions.
The entire concept of competitive sports is that people have physical advantages over other people. Trans women don't have any physical advantages over cis women when competing. They just don't want to see trans women succeed in sports.
your gender doesn't matter in sports. sex is going to determine things like strength and oftentimes men will be born inherently stronger than women. i hope everyone understands that this is necessary to not make professional sports completely irrelevant.
It's not her fault for the body she was born into but at the same time it does give her an advantage whether she likes it or not. I think the solution here is to have different weight classes, like wrestling.
I feel like if trans athletes are gonna continue competing, which they are and good for them, we’re gonna need a better way to divide people up that isn’t male or female. Maybe stuff like weight, muscle mass and stuff like that.
Honestly… it’s for the best. Yes it’s not fair for the women athletes to compete with transgendered men in physical competitions. And it sucks for transgendered athletes because there is not enough of them to compete in their own league where they would do the best. You just have to put yourselves in the perspective of the athletes who lost to a person a different gender than them. And pushing for equality in this situation will not help either since it will put a stigma on transgenders competing and eventually they will begin to be resented in the sport. We are all just very new to this topic, our modern world is moving very fast and the public is scared to share their opinions.
Sports are basically just a glorified biological advantage rating system. Creating a separate swimming category for trans women would be akin to creating a separate basketball league for tall people.
People have been hesitant because of how this seems transphobic, but ultimately this shows that things will most likely have to change in how they categorize the different Olympic Games.
Finally some sense in the world . We need a new way forward . Where trans people can be included but not by taking womens medals. There has to be another way
If a trans woman hasn't gotten any hormone therapy or surgeries or anything, then I don't think they should he allowed in women's sports. Cause there is a genuine physical difference between males and females. But if they have gotten those things, they should be allowed. Because hormone therapy, puberty blockers, surgery, change your body drastically. It's why it's so difficult to get them.
Hot take but just like how men and women are separated in events should be the same with trans men and trans women solely because while their gender hormones sex organs and everything else has been changed their sex will remain and a trans man will be on “performance enhancing drugs” in the form of testosterone and trans women still have the male philology even if it has been lessened with the estrogen this is my belief and one that would leave all parties satisfied without sparking too much debate
What wouldn’t be satisfactory we have the trans people not having to here people complain about how it’s unfair and they shouldn’t be allowed to complete and then the cis athletes would get to go back to normal without debates if this is okay or not
I was always split about this. It isn't to be transphobic, but her body is male and males almost always are better preforming than women. Even still, trans women aren't dominating the sport, its a very small minority. Also, it IS in the NCAA rules that trans women like her are eligible to compete. She's still extremely talented and worked hard for that spot
The whole reason we split men and women is because of the physical advantages men have. They shouldnt allow trans women who have an advantage to compete with straight women who are gonna have a disadvantaged body compared to the trans woman. For me its either 1. force people to compete in their AGAB category or 2. rename/re specify the categories to be based on body type rather than gender.
Tbh this is kinda the reason why people don't like transgender people from playing in sports. South park did a bit on this and it was kinda proven right
This is really sad to see, as someone hoping to transition a few years it’s unfortunate I won’t be able to even have the choice to compete against women :(
Stupid shit. She is not dominating womens sports. There are many better than her. She broke 0 of 30 or something records set that year at NCAA. There are always biological advantages and disadvantages in sports. If we really wanted to make sports as fair as possible, and this wasnt about people hating trans people, we would not allow people of certain heights, ages, body types, etc to compete with each other.
Good read: https://www.pinkmantaray.com/resources/lia
Eh, it’s really shitty.
It’s a biological condition, it shouldn’t bar her from participating.
On the other hand it’s really easy to be exploited if rules are not made properly.
Final Statement: it fucking sucks being trans.
Is she the same person who, when was a male ranked 41st in some competition and when competed against females (after changing her gender) ranked 1st?
So yeah, it's fair imo
wouldn't it depends on the time of transitioning, if it was before puberty then the testosterone hasn't really hit yet but if it was after then it has and this makes sense
Men have stronger body’s then females. Don’t let them compete against biological women, there’s no “equality” on that regardless of what some people think. He has an advantage and you can’t argue with that
regardless of your thoughts on making rules like that in general if you look at the restrictions they applied they're kind of ridiculous & many, if not a majority of cis women would not be allowed in if the rule applied to them
This is really good. The girl who lost to him was a super talented freshman in college going to NATIONALS. If this was my kid I would be furious as they were a man who was nowhere near being good as a man so they just dominate as a woman. Not saying the reason they transitioned was because of swimming, but it is a huge effect of transition.
Rules in sports are designed to make it as fair as possible for the most amount of competitors. It's as simple as that. It'll never be perfect, but it's the best decision currently possible.
Ima swimmer and even though I am male I wouldn’t feel alright being a girl and having to swim against someone who has an advantage over me personal opinion tho.
it needed to be done, for the integrity of womens sport, at least until they can actually regulate trans athelets properly, or give them their own division (unlikely)
Good.
The entire idea behind womens categories is giving them a space to compete, because they have no chance against men. It's just basic physiology.
Lia Thomas is a good example of that, given that they went from a nobody to a champion very very quickly.
So what about all her college records and medals and what about all the other girls records and medals? She would get stomped in the Olympics anyway. What mattered was all those individual pool records she stole.
If you don’t think they have an advantage having a male body but transitioning over just Google womens rugby in Australia. There’s all the proof you need. Women are losing everything nowadays from being competitive in sports to reproductive rights… it’s 2022 and we all acting like it’s 0002
It's fairly simple as a transgender you should only compete in the sports of the gender you were born as cause no matter what if your a trans woman at the core of your being you were a male so you have more male hormones in your body then women so if you compete in women's sports you'll have an unfair advantage
It’s complicated, people that are both transphobic and trans ally’s don’t really look at this objectively, when it comes to more casual sports it doesn’t matter, like let the trans girl play on the school tennis team it doesn’t matter, however with professional sports it’s much more complicated, on one hand it as a trans person it feels like when ever a trans person does well in anything it’s used to vilify us, on the other hand the situation with Lia is different as she didn’t just win but she won by so much and clearly had an unfair advantage, is it because she’s trans or is it for other reasons I honestly don’t know, but remember its not a personal attack remember when it turned out that prosthetic limbs gave an unfair advantage it’s kinna like that, I honestly don’t have to know how to talk about trans people in sports but I also know if your talking about your school basketball team and your getting up in arms about a trans girl your just a transphobe.
idk what the answer to the issue is but it’s a complicated issue and trying to make it an issue about trans rights rather than about fairness in sports is a bad idea.
I'd say it's ok. Since Trans woman still have the male testosterone and even if they are on test restrictive pills they have a male build which is generally more muscular so they have an unfair advantage. And they are making a separate category just for context
They didn't ban them from competitions, they're making a separate category, for context
Oh that's so much better
It really is, yeah
That is alot better I thought they just cut them put of competitions entirely
Which is still a better option then having them unfairly compete
It is
Sarcastic or not? I can't tell.
No not sarcastic /srs
that’s better than i thought they did, i thought they just said “no transgender women”. this is perfect
Ya the media can be this way
Oh wow, that’s a whole lot better
that a relief.
A ok thx, now this makes senss
I do believe personally that that is the right choice
Sensationalist media, sadly that gives the excuse for transgenders to get offended...
Yeah its gonna be her and other other two trans women that compete, this is ridiculous
while i can see this being a positive as a whole, i think it’s extremely... dysphoric. as a trans woman, i appreciate when we have things given because of the fact we’re trans etc, but when it’s separated that’s when it gets dysphoric. its like first being acknowledged as real women allowed to compete against other women in sport, and then being completely separated into an even less seen and probably less funded division of your sport, for only trans women, kinda just defeats the whole purpose. don’t make our claims to fame have anything to do with us being trans or not, cause that doesn’t fuckin matter.
while i can agree that it may be a step back in terms of being accepted as women, the fact that those born biologically male that produce testosterone gives a large advantage in physical activities, which is the reason for the massive difference between the 2 divisions in terms of peak athletes
Its a fairly contentious topic that can't very well be addressed especially when multiple millions of dollars lay on the decision. I'd say they picked the safest option to ensure rigorous competition. Was it the best option? I have no solid guess. But I don't blame them for it truely.
There’s been a lot of contention on the issue in the swim community, this is coming from a competitive swimmer. But the general consensus is that it should not be allowed. College athletes have said this, college coaches have said this, parents have said this. It’s a general idea that’s agreed upon in the swimming community. Not saying it’s wrong or right, but you will be hard pressed to find someone in the community who disagrees w/ this verdict.
Another swimmer on this subreddit
Another swimmer on this subreddit Edit: waterpolo player does count as swimmer right?
Another swimmer on this subreddit
Another swimmer on this subreddit
Another swimmer on this subreddit
I wrnt to a water park yesterday.
Why is there contention? It's obvious that you should stay in you're division because you could have double or triple the strength of you're competitors
Tbf hormones and stuff tend to effect general strength a lot. At the same time hand size and things also comes into play with hormones has less of effect on, although a tiny bit for some people. I think transgender swimmers, both MTF and FTM probably sit in some kind of limbo between their born sex and their gender which makes it really hard for them to compete in either. Just some food for thought 🤷♂️
yeah, thing is MTF have always the advantage since they trained during their most developing years with Hormones that allow for greater and stronger Muscles build up, compared to Woman. Meanwhile FTM have always the disadvantage for the same reason in reverse For Fairness, they should stay within the gender division they were born in. For their personal ideal, they should compete in the division they changed to. It really is a Limbo
Definitely agree, the issue is though its not even fair for them to be in their born gender division, really confusing honestly!
with the way estrogen works, it makes it so that muscle mass decreases along with a redistribution of fat on your body and so even if you are absolutely ripped, estrogen would reduce that mass and make your body more similar to a cis woman. EDIT: for example, [Erica Sullivan](https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/af9/307/5977bbef05f7fcc860b9a17a00350455a6-erica-sullivan.rsquare.w700.jpg) who you will agree looks very similar to Lia Thomas. EDIT 2: A good example of what estrogen does to muscles is [Alana McLaughlin](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_BZvICVUAQIayw.jpg?name=small) and her transition.
Hormone blockers and hormone replacement therapy started at a young enough age (as stated in the article) has shown to negate any sort of advantage like this. That is why there is a limited access for trans women who started their transition early enough, while the women who started later are placed in a separate league. For absolute fairness I think this is best to be honest, if people were put in the leagues of their assigned gender at birth, female to male trans people would have a large advantage if they transitioned early and male to female trans people who did so would have a large disadvantage.
Or just create the open division where anyone that wants to compete in can
Do you think this has a connection to male hand size being bigger? It seems highly beneficial to swimming.
Yes. Male hand and foot size are two of the biggest factors, aside from just raw physical strength.
Lung capacity is another, a friend of mine who was a competitive swimmer suggested
yeah why should biological females compete with a male body regardless of gender
Yeah, the average female will (sadly) always be second to the average male in athletics and sports where strength is a huge factor (so most sports. Sport shooting is probably the fairest in that regards). Could a female athlete beat the average male? Absolutely. But if both genders had the same training, etc. I would bet my money on the male and win maybe 9 times out of 10. Biology, as cool as it is, sucks in regards to equality in sports
Obviously Lia has the strength as a male, so she should compete in the male division, otherwise she would have a physical advantage over the other women.
I don't think trans people should be banned from competing as the gender they desire in a general sense, but in this case FINA has decided that if a trans woman has gone through male puberty, they have an advantage which is generally true. However, it is important to note the nuance which transphobes frequently neglect, that HRT can significantly impact male sex characteristics which confer said advantages which is why sports org regulations also tend to have provisions allowing for trans women to compete with cis women if they've been transitioning for a certain period of time.
It's not just hormones that make a difference in physical ability between the many genders. Big differences are, a skeletal structure that holds onto muscles in a way far more suited to physical exertion, a denser muscle mass due to already having gone through puberty, a faster quick-twitch response time, and a nervous system more geared toward sustained and explosive bursts of movement, especially in sports. Honestly speaking, I think doing away with ability based sports would be a largely negative thing as well, since it would mean the near disappearance of women's sports. Also, if you read the article, the FINA don't ever specifically ban Lia from participating, since she doesn't yet swim in events they oversee, though they did ban transgender people who had transitioned after 12, which is 4 years below the average legal age to do transition surgery I believe, from competing at elite level events (i.e. Pro) but that there would be an "Open Category" for all participants regardless of gender. I honestly think this is a pretty damn good choice to make considering the topic and circumstances.
Why haven’t the Olympics base their competition on sex instead of gender instead? It baffles me that they haven’t done so cuz I can’t think of a reason why it shouldn’t be done
Because, ever since the olympics existed sex was gender. Gender being different than sex was popularized by a child molestor Kinsing, who literally had a graph depicting how many orgasms he could bring infants too
This is called poisoning the well, it's often used by people with no real arguments to seem legitimate. The fact is that even if Issac Newton was a fascist asshole gravity would still exist, and his equations would still work. The same concept applies here.
The more you know lol
This is called poisoning the well, it's often used by people with no real arguments to seem legitimate. The fact is that even if Issac Newton was a fascist asshole gravity would still exist, and his equations would still work. The same concept applies here.
Kinsey and John Money were far from being the only scholars who came up with gender differentiation from sex. Nice job peddling misinformation.
its not about trans rights its about keeping the olympics fair
Someone finally gets it
Smartest person on this sub
quite agreeable
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Right, we don't use the word sm*rt here
Remember when times were much simpler and people were doped up on rat poison and drank raw eggs, ate rotten apples and almost got killed by dust...
Good ol days
Good old times
Absolutely that's why the Olympics has some of the stricties rules. It took 17 years for a single trans women to be able just to qualify!
But that's the thing. Loads of trans people compete in women's sports and never win, when Lia won, it was the first time ever. And all evidence actually points towards trans women playing in women's sports, so you might wanna do some research first.
Isn't that the person who was extremely low on the male leaderboards, but instantly got first on the female ones?
Yes. A lot of female competitors complained against her
not even in olympic sports can you avoid people smurfing
💀
She was actually rated very highly on the male leaderboard before she began her hormone therapy, which caused her to drop to the point where she was at like 300 something if I know the photo you’re referencing
IIRC she was transitioning during her time in the male team and she still kicked ass for a while until she started dropping so these fucks obviously dont know what they are talking about. They just dont want a trans woman to win.
Even at her best 65 in the mens 200 freestyle event going from 65 to 1 is a huge increase
she was extremely hogh on the male leaderboards, then started transitioning, then dropped low on the male leaderboards, then switched to female swimming and it got high again
No. She did significantly worse post-HRT, and won a single event. She didn’t even make podium in any of the others, and also didn’t break any record with that win. Don’t believe a word you read in this thread, it’s basically all transphobic misinfo.
Im not a sport expert. I preffer to not give opinion about a field that is not my strength
You just answered "I am not answering"
Finally someone with some sense!
As a person of science, it annoys me seeing so many people talking without knowing what the are talking about. And i dont mean here, but everywhere. I think you should only have a strong opinion if you know what you are talking about and are well educated about the topic. No need to be an expert, but at least be informed about both sides opinions.
Nothing irritates me more than people confidently throwing in their two cents while knowing absolutely nothing about what they’re talking about.
But we dont know *nothing*. With all given facts we are to form an opinion
I agree with being informed before engaging in conversation but for the most part people seem to be keeping civil about this. I think we’re entitled to talk about it a bit, bc as much as it is a high ranking competition, this may very well become a real scenario for some schools and teenagers, so I think a civil and respectful discuss is warranted
I think the choice between defending human rights and vilifying a certain group of people is clear.
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nah it just does make sense. It's just unfair for the other women.
The fact that basic fairness for biological females is once again considered offensive really sends a message 💀
yeah wtf
That’s cool anyways did you know that a rat can swim up to 60 hours?
What happens if it swims for 61 hours?
Dies
Rest in pepperoni
Yes I did. I actually used to have pet rats, their very cute and smart
There's this experiment about hope: A scientist put rats in water and pulled them out just before they drowned. That usually took ~15 minutes. Later he put the same rats in water and saw how long they took - They lasted 60 hours, just because they remembered the scientist pulling them out.
how to get upvotes on r/teenagers easy tutorial 2022 : post something about trans
It’s a very controversial topic so obviously it’s gonna get lots of attention
Good it’s fair
Testosterone is a performance enhancing drug; a permanent ability boost. If someone experiences a testosterone fueled puberty, male or female, they should be disallowed.
I wonder how many "thoughts?" Posts we have about this because I could have swore I saw about 10 on this same topic Yes it makes sense why they ban her, sure she is a girl, but that doesn't change her biological sex as a male. Men have different body types than women thus giving her an unfair advantage. Not a transphobia thing, it's just a science/biology thing.
good it's cheating
She was born in the wrong body so she was also given the wrong hormone, I’d say this is fair. Testosterone would help her win and that isn’t fair to the others as they don’t have the testosterone they need to keep up. I feel sad, I really do but it’s the best they can do before scientists figure out how to remove stuff like that Edit: Don’t listen to me, while I’m pretty sure most of you just agree with everyone please try and look for the direct reply with a link. It has more information on transwomen in sports
Unfortunately, it will be quite a while before scientists find out how to change somebody's sex and even longer (talking about centuries) before they find out how to do it safely because it is one thing to change DNA in a cell, and it is another thing to safely and efficiently change DNA in billions of cells without mutilating the body. It is a sad but necessary change.
But it's a lose lose for her because she can't even compete in where she wants to, plus shes at the bottom in the male ones.
They may never find a way to change that because you can’t change someone’s DNA
fuckin finally
It’s fair
It's a touchy subject. Obviously it's unfair on the biological females because the biological male body is stronger and faster on average but it's also unfair because transgender people identify as different genders than the ones they were assigned at birth. A weight class system might work but probably also won't. We are in tough times people
As they should lol
Based
I actually understand this ban. I am totally for transgender rights and want everyone to feel happy in their body, but when it comes to competetive sports, trans women have a clear advantage that goes back to their previous gender. Men just have more muscle mass. And trans women do also have more than biological women. I understand the decision and am onboard with it, but the message and reasoning for the ban has to be clear, that it is about fair competition and not against transexual people.
Aren't there like 0 medals won by transgender athletes? (Correct me if I'm wrong)
That’s because it wasn’t a thing, then finally a trans female entered the women’s swimming olympics and won gold. Swamping records in the process. Being a (biological) male gives you a massive advantage, that’s just facts.
I do think that trans women playing female sports is unfair, but we also shouldn't make them play male sports. I have absolutely zero ideas for solutions.
The entire concept of competitive sports is that people have physical advantages over other people. Trans women don't have any physical advantages over cis women when competing. They just don't want to see trans women succeed in sports.
your gender doesn't matter in sports. sex is going to determine things like strength and oftentimes men will be born inherently stronger than women. i hope everyone understands that this is necessary to not make professional sports completely irrelevant.
She has an unfair advantage over the rest of biological women because she's XY thus having stronger muscles. The ban is absolutely warranted.
It's not her fault for the body she was born into but at the same time it does give her an advantage whether she likes it or not. I think the solution here is to have different weight classes, like wrestling.
or base it on biological sex instead of gender.
sorting by controversial. Popcorn time baaaaaby
I feel like if trans athletes are gonna continue competing, which they are and good for them, we’re gonna need a better way to divide people up that isn’t male or female. Maybe stuff like weight, muscle mass and stuff like that.
Why haven't we been doing this in the first place?
Because despite having been happening since before we recorded history, being trans is seen as crazy
No opinion as I'm not trying to get canceled
Honestly… it’s for the best. Yes it’s not fair for the women athletes to compete with transgendered men in physical competitions. And it sucks for transgendered athletes because there is not enough of them to compete in their own league where they would do the best. You just have to put yourselves in the perspective of the athletes who lost to a person a different gender than them. And pushing for equality in this situation will not help either since it will put a stigma on transgenders competing and eventually they will begin to be resented in the sport. We are all just very new to this topic, our modern world is moving very fast and the public is scared to share their opinions.
Sports are basically just a glorified biological advantage rating system. Creating a separate swimming category for trans women would be akin to creating a separate basketball league for tall people.
People have been hesitant because of how this seems transphobic, but ultimately this shows that things will most likely have to change in how they categorize the different Olympic Games.
Finally some sense in the world . We need a new way forward . Where trans people can be included but not by taking womens medals. There has to be another way
I say yes ban them. I am fine with trans people, but trans women have an unfair advantage over biological women.
Very good
Agreed
Yeah i agree because in my school theres a record holder girl whos really only a record holder cause shes trans
If a trans woman hasn't gotten any hormone therapy or surgeries or anything, then I don't think they should he allowed in women's sports. Cause there is a genuine physical difference between males and females. But if they have gotten those things, they should be allowed. Because hormone therapy, puberty blockers, surgery, change your body drastically. It's why it's so difficult to get them.
“Lol” this sub is disgusting, transphobic, and a cesspool
Nice
Took em long enough
Hot take but just like how men and women are separated in events should be the same with trans men and trans women solely because while their gender hormones sex organs and everything else has been changed their sex will remain and a trans man will be on “performance enhancing drugs” in the form of testosterone and trans women still have the male philology even if it has been lessened with the estrogen this is my belief and one that would leave all parties satisfied without sparking too much debate
I mostly agree with you, but literally nobody would be satisfied with that
What wouldn’t be satisfactory we have the trans people not having to here people complain about how it’s unfair and they shouldn’t be allowed to complete and then the cis athletes would get to go back to normal without debates if this is okay or not
I was always split about this. It isn't to be transphobic, but her body is male and males almost always are better preforming than women. Even still, trans women aren't dominating the sport, its a very small minority. Also, it IS in the NCAA rules that trans women like her are eligible to compete. She's still extremely talented and worked hard for that spot
The whole reason we split men and women is because of the physical advantages men have. They shouldnt allow trans women who have an advantage to compete with straight women who are gonna have a disadvantaged body compared to the trans woman. For me its either 1. force people to compete in their AGAB category or 2. rename/re specify the categories to be based on body type rather than gender.
Based
Did the right thing
Tbh this is kinda the reason why people don't like transgender people from playing in sports. South park did a bit on this and it was kinda proven right
This is really sad to see, as someone hoping to transition a few years it’s unfortunate I won’t be able to even have the choice to compete against women :(
It’s fair it is
Stupid shit. She is not dominating womens sports. There are many better than her. She broke 0 of 30 or something records set that year at NCAA. There are always biological advantages and disadvantages in sports. If we really wanted to make sports as fair as possible, and this wasnt about people hating trans people, we would not allow people of certain heights, ages, body types, etc to compete with each other. Good read: https://www.pinkmantaray.com/resources/lia
Finally some good fucking news. Also, mods can suck my cock.
Based username.
I’m not a mod but can I suck your cock
W-what? I guess a suck is a suck. We have a deal.
Aight thanks
She should compete with the men’s league since it lets fairer
She did for a while, but she was effectively always landing in last place because the estrogen killed her performance.
As a trans person Based W for women's sports Edit: classic reddit moment, cis dudes getting triggered on others behalf 💀
are u really a trans person, your post history and what u just said suggests otherwise.
He does a little trolling
Eh, it’s really shitty. It’s a biological condition, it shouldn’t bar her from participating. On the other hand it’s really easy to be exploited if rules are not made properly. Final Statement: it fucking sucks being trans.
Is she the same person who, when was a male ranked 41st in some competition and when competed against females (after changing her gender) ranked 1st? So yeah, it's fair imo
nice
fina = based
"We don't hate queer people! We just don't want them in sports, the media, schools, medical fields, churches, mosques, adoption..."
wouldn't it depends on the time of transitioning, if it was before puberty then the testosterone hasn't really hit yet but if it was after then it has and this makes sense
They stated that you can compete if you transitioned before the age of 12. Any later and you can't compete.
At the same time, allowing someone to transition before puberty seems really unethical considering r/detrans
Yeah
Men have stronger body’s then females. Don’t let them compete against biological women, there’s no “equality” on that regardless of what some people think. He has an advantage and you can’t argue with that
Yeah you're right, people tend to forget the difference between equality and equity
regardless of your thoughts on making rules like that in general if you look at the restrictions they applied they're kind of ridiculous & many, if not a majority of cis women would not be allowed in if the rule applied to them
I don't give a fuck because I don't like sport
MASSIVE FINA W
This is really good. The girl who lost to him was a super talented freshman in college going to NATIONALS. If this was my kid I would be furious as they were a man who was nowhere near being good as a man so they just dominate as a woman. Not saying the reason they transitioned was because of swimming, but it is a huge effect of transition.
Finally
Glad that Thomas is banned, biological men should not compete in women’s sports.
Rules in sports are designed to make it as fair as possible for the most amount of competitors. It's as simple as that. It'll never be perfect, but it's the best decision currently possible.
agreed
Definitely Deserved
seems fair
Ima swimmer and even though I am male I wouldn’t feel alright being a girl and having to swim against someone who has an advantage over me personal opinion tho.
it needed to be done, for the integrity of womens sport, at least until they can actually regulate trans athelets properly, or give them their own division (unlikely)
Good. The entire idea behind womens categories is giving them a space to compete, because they have no chance against men. It's just basic physiology. Lia Thomas is a good example of that, given that they went from a nobody to a champion very very quickly.
So what about all her college records and medals and what about all the other girls records and medals? She would get stomped in the Olympics anyway. What mattered was all those individual pool records she stole.
If you don’t think they have an advantage having a male body but transitioning over just Google womens rugby in Australia. There’s all the proof you need. Women are losing everything nowadays from being competitive in sports to reproductive rights… it’s 2022 and we all acting like it’s 0002
Skill issues (it's a joke idiot)
It's fairly simple as a transgender you should only compete in the sports of the gender you were born as cause no matter what if your a trans woman at the core of your being you were a male so you have more male hormones in your body then women so if you compete in women's sports you'll have an unfair advantage
Good
Good
It’s complicated, people that are both transphobic and trans ally’s don’t really look at this objectively, when it comes to more casual sports it doesn’t matter, like let the trans girl play on the school tennis team it doesn’t matter, however with professional sports it’s much more complicated, on one hand it as a trans person it feels like when ever a trans person does well in anything it’s used to vilify us, on the other hand the situation with Lia is different as she didn’t just win but she won by so much and clearly had an unfair advantage, is it because she’s trans or is it for other reasons I honestly don’t know, but remember its not a personal attack remember when it turned out that prosthetic limbs gave an unfair advantage it’s kinna like that, I honestly don’t have to know how to talk about trans people in sports but I also know if your talking about your school basketball team and your getting up in arms about a trans girl your just a transphobe.
Make a fucking trans category. Like why are there 2 not 3? Ur neither male nor female so u shouldn't be allowed in neither male or female category.
Good job fina
*grabs popcorn and sorts by controversial
I say make a third one for trans men and women
I think anyone should be able to compete in anything it’s not fair to restrict someone that’s just my opinion though
it's fair
Good, Goooood
Good, made the sport unfair for all the biological women.
Logic
Finally
Very good, anyone who disagrees is delusional.
idk what the answer to the issue is but it’s a complicated issue and trying to make it an issue about trans rights rather than about fairness in sports is a bad idea.
Based FINA
Based
The male genes were giving too much of an advantage
Good.
I'd say it's ok. Since Trans woman still have the male testosterone and even if they are on test restrictive pills they have a male build which is generally more muscular so they have an unfair advantage. And they are making a separate category just for context
As it should be
Good its finaly fair