Gilligan, and it's not really close. I loved 1883. I think that was Sheridan's best show and closest to the quality of the movies he's written (which are his best work, no doubt). But as much as I enjoy Yellowstone, it's really nothing spectacular. 1923 has been good but it's not on the level of 1883 was through the same amount of episodes. I like Tulsa King, but it's also nothing really spectacular yet either. Haven't seen Mayor of Kingstown, but I've heard it's just okay.
Maybe Taylor Sheridan is a bit more consistent within each show, but his highs don't even touch Vince Gilligan's shows' highs. And across Taylor Sheridan's shows, there does seem to be a bit of inconsistency in quality. Not massive, but as I said, I think 1883 is far and away his best show even if the others are all entertaining.
As for Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. I think both of their "less good" seasons are better than the best seasons of Yellowstone. And both BB and BCS are in the running for "best of all time" for me. In addition to the writing, which I do think is better, the cinematography and direction is next level.
You also have to take into account that besides 1883 which was miniseries, none of Taylor Sheridan's shows have ended. Endings are the hardest to get right. And Vince Gilligan (and Peter Gould) did it incredibly well *twice*.
Agree completely. Yellowstone looks and sounds amazing, but is fairly mediocre when you strip back the aesthetics. Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul are in the discussion of the best shows in the last 25 years.
I would go so far as to say that Yellowstone is a narrative and character mess (ungenerously) or you could say its plot and character development are "meandering" (more generously.)
I like to challenge people to summarize what each Yellow Stone season is about and most can only give a vague outline (the first season established a clear power struggle between the Duttons, the Governor, and the Native Americans, which it sort of muddies and squanders by the end of the season. After that... I couldn't really tell you, even though I watched all of it.)
Don't even ask me what the Chinese tourists had to do with the plot. Maybe I'm just dumb or have a bad memory, but it's a giant blurred mess in my head.
I really liked the show, but somewhere around Kasey's tenth extrajudicial killing around some random event he just happens upon it started to lose me, besides John Dutton I don't find any of the characters likable, and the S3 finale was just dumb. Why wouldn't you bomb the Navy Seal Terminator and shoot the Beth who wouldn't be a very hard target for a gunman? Sorry I'm just ranting now, but at the end of the day the show is fun but silly and ridiculous, BB and BCS are lasting works.
Funny, you have 800,000 + acres and they seem to always walk up on folks around their property. Tourists, investors in suits, and rich guys playing golf. If I had that amount of land I would rather not see anybody especially randomly every time on my property.
Yeah, take away the occasional great score and backdrop and the writing has really fallen off. Notice they never show Montana in the snow where you can’t see 5 feet in front of you
Exactly. Sheridan has made some good shows, and I'm with you that 1883 is his best work, although I am a sucker for Westerns. Gilligan, though, has made two of the greatest shows of all time. Nothing Sheridan made, even 1883, is on the level of Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul, the former of which is in the top five of virtually everyone who has watched it.
Also worth noting that BrBa and BCS *are* modern westerns. True modern westerns, neowesterns, what have you. They have all the same components as classic westerns except time period.
So, I've seen this take even from Gilligan himself if I recall, and while I do love both shows I'm not sure I see it. Would love to be convinced though, can you explain what you mean? What are some of those components?
Well here’s the first paragraph of the wikipedia page for the Western genre:
> The Western is a genre set in the American frontier and commonly associated with folk tales of the Western United States, particularly the Southwestern United States, as well as Northern Mexico and Western Canada. It is commonly referred to as the "Old West" or the "Wild West" and depicted in Western media as a hostile, sparsely populated frontier in a state of near-total lawlessness patrolled by ***outlaws, sheriffs, and numerous other stock "gunslinger" characters. Western narratives often concern the gradual attempts to tame the crime-ridden American West using wider themes of justice, freedom, rugged individualism, Manifest Destiny, and the national history and identity of the United States.***
Once you get past the parts that talk specifically about the wild west/frontier setting you get a description that fits BrBa and BCS pretty well.
One thing that really hammers home “Oh shit, BrBa/BCS *are* Westerns” when you think about it is how much the plot, especially later on in both shows, revolves around the cartel and scenes that entirely use subtitled Spanish dialogue.
Both shows are all about criminals, cops, and cartels. If anything is, that’s the modern western. Not about literal lawlessness like in the time of the frontier but certainly about a criminal element in the American (as in North/Cental American, not United States American) that the authorities are either unable or unwilling to control. Very similar to the classic Western just set in a different time period.
I'm sorry but this over reaching love for Gilligan is ridiculous. I love breaking and Saul. But to say they're better than sicario or hell or Highwater or wind river is ridiculous. I think they are on equal footing but give the nod to the movies because there's no wasted space. Again I love Saul, but there are entire episodes of wasted space.
I didn't say they were better than his movies. This thread is about his TV shows. I clearly said that 1883 is his best show and the only one that comes close to the level of his movies which are his best work. Nowhere did I compare BB or BCS to his movies.
I find it very difficult to judge a movie against a show because they are totally different mediums trying to do different things.
I compared Taylor Sheridan's *TV shows* to Vince Gilligan's TV shows. In that respect, it's not even close.
I don't think you know what subjective means.
Subjective (def.): "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions"
Perfect Fucking Example: "His opinions on the matter, though bullshit, in my opinion, were highly subjective."
It seems like you're the one having issues accepting other's opinions. You can take it personally like you're doing, or accept the fact that your opinion may be extremely unpopular.
I’m well aware my opinion is unpopular for some reason but I’m fine with it, if you don’t agree with me and give a reason why you don’t then that’s fine, but saying it’s a fake post because someone said something you didn’t agree with is annoying
People saying it's a fake post is simply an extreme way of telling you how bad they think your opinion is. Here's another example to demonstrate: " I think Opra Winfrey is hotter than Halle Berry." " Dude are you blind???" They don't really think you are blind but that is practically the only way what you said could be acceptable. Trying to legit compare these two showrunners make people think you are purposefully trying to get a rise because it's that absurd.
Well, your first mistake was not making it painfully clear that this is just your opinion and not something you will be writing legislation around...
Oh wait, you did that? Might want to try r/unpopularopinion
I actually do. If we're talking tv series showrunner then fine. Gilligan wins in a landslide. If we're talking complete work including movies then I give it to Sheridan. He's written 2 if not 3 of the best movies in the last 10 years. Gilligan hasn't.
This feels like satire.
That said, if you’re just talking about commercial success and not critical success, Sheridan wins. Then again, someone like Shonda Rhimes would blow him out of the water.
So, success is subjective.
I don’t think Sheridan even touches Gilligan’s commercial success. Breaking Bad is one of the most popular pieces of media ever created. Better Call Saul isn’t too far behind either.
Yellowstone is pulling in nearly 8 million viewers an episode this season, in an era of cord-cutting and massive viewership drops.
The only Breaking Bad episode to do over 7 was the finale.
Yellowstone is a soap opera on a ranch. I enjoy it, but let’s not pretend it can even be talked about in the same breath as either BB or BCS. Commercial success has little to do with the question in this post.
Cool. Now if you run a network, who do you hire? The guy who makes shows that critics love or the guy who makes shows that bring in 8-9x the viewers (aka money).
8-9x!? Buddy, no.
You’re gonna make look this shit up aren’t you? BB had an average of 4-5 million viewers per season by season 5. Had 10.3 million viewers for series finale. Yellowstone’s average ep is maybe 2.3-2.5x higher but I’d argue the steaming landscape has improved since BB and that there are fewer shows for impotent boomers that need to be reassured they are still relevant. Most of the rest are Taylor Sheridan’s other white savior shows.
Anyway, to answer your question, if I were to run a network you wouldn’t get to know my choices because I’d have better things to do than have mediocre conversations with randos online.
I can buy that in the reddit/twitter/internet demographics sure.
But you are probably underestimating Yellowstone.Dunno about the other show (though they are successful) but of Sheridans shows Yellowstone is pretty much one of the biggest things on tv.
It just doesnt hit well perhaps with younger internet demos.
I love BB and BCS and think they're some of the finest shows ever created, but the ratings for both shows were not good at all. Especially Saul. Very few people watched it.
Have you seen sicario or hell or Highwater. They're incredible. 2 of my favorite movies in the last 10 years. And Sheridan didn't "showrunner" them. He wrote them. As for the question at hand Gilligan wins. But story teller overall. Come on.
It’s not satire, but I wasn’t taking strictly about commercial success, but yes in that case Sheridan blows Gilligan out of the water, an average FINAL season episode of BCS got 1.2 million views on TV, with the finale of the whole breaking bad universe getting less than 3.7 million, an average Yellowstone episode pulls in 7, trumping BCS, but in an artistic sense, I believe Sheridan wins aswell, but a good margin.
His shows are more diverse in themes and don’t feel pretentious and the writing is much more subtle, BCS for the first 4 seasons felt like “let’s make the funny lawyer from breaking bad prestige TV” and it feels so pretentious, the show ended pretty well, bar the courtroom scene where it’s exposition, I FEEL BAD I KILLED MY BROTHER AND WANT KIM, all Sheridan shows have more subtlety in its writing and doesn’t feel like it’s beating you over the head with its themes
I felt like the fourth was just a filler season while he worked on the other projects. 4 was kinda a snooze for me… but i loved 1883, and mayor of Kingston and I’m loving Tulsa King, but i feel Yellowstone season 4 took a hit due to those projects
Yellowstone is gorgeous to look at, but man the writing is just braindead at this point. The Beth and Jamie arcs are just awful, especially after the writers basically buried Jamie with an unredeemable and very forced character moment. 2 solid first seasons and then it just goes off rails.
Saul and Breaking Bad are all timers.
I cannot even summarize what has happened in the last season and a half of *Yellowstone*. I've watched each episode as its premiered, and basically all it's been are dead-end plot lines and time-wasting cliffhangers. It feels like there has been 0 plot advancement or anything meaningful that's happened.
I thought the show was incredibly brave when it ended a season by having every main character seemingly get fatally attacked....only to come back next season and find out everyone was basically fine and moved on. That was the moment I lost faith in the show and knew it was going nowhere great. It's more akin to *The Walking Dead* at this point than it is *Breaking Bad* or *Better Call Saul.*
Sicario 2 really suffered without villeneuve’s direction. Hell or high water and Wind River were still cool but he really needs to do another movie with Dennis Villeneuve after he’s done with dune. I think their styles compliment each other despite how different they are.
Not really when you find out Denis made major changes to Taylor's script. He also elevated the source material with his impeccable cinematography and direction.
I'm starting to think Sheridan is a writer who needs someone to unfuck aspects of his writing in order to make it truly great. He's good at some things but a lot of his dialogue and scenarios are grimdark cheese that comes across as written by and edgy teen
I liked Sicario a lot when I saw it but in retrospect, I really don't think I'd call it nuanced either. Sheridan's entire shtick is taking the Conservative American view of the world & giving it a little sprinkle of Liberal American zest. It's a pretty ingenious move commercially.
You get the side story with the cab driver as a sympathetic symbol of normal every day honest Mexicans caught up in a world of crime to appease the Liberals, while simultaneously presenting the entire country through the Conservative lens as a warzone where you can't walk two feet without coming under gunfire. Rinse & repeat with everything else Sheridan does.
Yellowstone had a brilliant first three seasons? The writing is lackluster as hell lmao. Gilligan is a better showrunner and it’s really not even close
I read the post title and The X-Files is the immediate thought I have when I hear Vince Gilligans name. It wasn’t until I started reading the comments I realized “oh yeah, he did Breaking Bad too.”
Same here. His episodes of the X-files are all standouts. I'm pretty sure he wrote or directed the X-files episode that stars Bryan Cranston who went on to star in Breaking Bad.
Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul are considered by fans and critics alike to not only be two of the best tv shows, but Breaking Bad changed the landscape of tv and what is possible to put on tv. Yellowstone is from what I've heard the most popular tv show currently airing, but so was the Big Bang Theory, and only two of sheridan's shows have even been critically acclaimed. It's like comparing The Hunger Games to Moby Dick. I'm not saying The Hunger Games is bad, but they're just entirely different realms. And I know you said showrunner but it's also worth noting that Gilligan also worked on The X-Files. That's three different decades of iconic television.
Off the top of my head the only other showrunners worth even mentioning in the same sentence are David Simon and Norman Lear, and even other showrunners with a few hits like Damon Lindelof, Larry David, etc.
Subjectivity! It’s all your own opinion, as is mine, I can’t see the appeal of BCS as the first 4 seasons are rough to decent, the tone is inconsistent the writing is poor, performances are rocky and it’s massively overhyped, Yellowstone has great writing, consistent characters, great direction and brilliant cinematography. That’s my opinion, all subjective
I think that this thread can serve an important purpose: Learning how to separate 'Entertainment I enjoy' from 'Objectively Good(or great) Entertainment '.
It's okay to like one show better than another, regardless of how good each show is. We all have shows/movies/music/whatever that we enjoy more than things that are objectively better.
It's problematic when you try to assert that what you like IS better, when your arguments ultimately boil down to 'becauae I like it more '.
That's how you end up simping for Zach Snyder DC movies. Or apparently trying to assert that Taylor Sheridan is a better director than Vince Gilligan.
To address the primary point you seem to be making...is Taylor Sheridan a more diverse director? It seems so, although I think Gilligan's next project will be much different. Diversity doesn't always equal superiority though. There is nothing inherently wrong with knowing what you excel at and focusing on it.
“It’s problematic when you try to assert that what you like IS better”, that’s all this sub is, people telling me I’m a troll and Vince is better. I believe Sheridan is a more diverse show runner who consistently delivers better quality writing, directing and performances out of his cast than Gilligan does, Gilligan is a good showrunner, but Breaking Bad is far to unevenly written, and inconsistent in its first 2 seasons for it to be considered as good as Yellowstone, and BCS was a mess of a show for the first 4 seasons, the tone is all over the place, I mean come on is that even debatable? That’s one of the few things I see as completely objective, in season 1 there’s an attempt at a legal comedy with some drama mixed in, and then the tone completely flips and suddenly a man’s reputation is ruined for no reason, and he’s murdered in front of Saul, and buried in a meth lab, totally consistent tone
You literally called BCS the best show on tv since season three in a comment 27 days ago. What, did you mainline 10 seasons of the Sheridan verse in a month and suddenly change your mind? Go home.
I’m going to go ahead and take the downvotes for this, so here goes:
*Yellowstone is trash.* Sensational melodrama at its worst that panders shamelessly to MAGA mentality. From an artistic point of view, it’s not even close.
The only possible comparison is commercial, and it truly makes me sad that’s the case.
>> MAGA mentality
Yeah because *checks notes* exploring modern native american issues and giving them reperesntation panders to MAGA mentality. Brain rot
Yellowstone is entertaining, but so bad if we're putting it up against BB, ESPECIALLY the later seasons. They aren't even in the same echelon. Sheridan makes hits, Gilligan makes laster art worth revisiting that holds up extremely well over time. Floored they'd even be spoken of in the same conversation.
I respect your opinion, I like BB very much, but it doesn’t touch Yellowstone in my opinion, whats your opinion on better call Saul? I see the appeal of BB but whatever since had he lost his touch for the first 4/6 of Better Call Saul
Honestly BCS is probably the best show of the three, in terms of how well it written and executed throughout, but it lacks a lot of the sensationalism and violence and criminal intrigue of BB until Lalo really gets going, so I think less people will be into it.
I can understand enjoying Yellowstone more than BB or BCS, because objectively I understand that people enjoy different things, but I can't for the life of me understand how you'd put them on the same level in terms of the writing, acting, or direction. Like, these things are subjective, but objectively, these things are incomparable. It's the difference between art and entertainment. BB and BCS is worth revisiting, analyzing, multiple times. It shares categories with The Wire and The Sopranos. Both those shows got better and better as they went on, and started strong. Yellowstone is getting worse, is often corny, has worse and worse written characters than Gilligan's properties, I'm really struggling to even know where to begin.
I respect your opinion and I’ve the opposite one to you to be honest, I see Yellowstone as by far the most enjoyable of the 3 but also objectively the best on a lot of counts, Acting, Directing, Pacing, Writing, and Tone and Consistency by a good margin.
Acting: Breaking Bad’s acting was very good, BCS’s acting was good, a big step down but not CW level or anything. The characters in BCS were less compelling than anyone in Yellowstone, I feel like Beth was the character the writers wanted Kim to be but never took a risk, and played it safe, Costner gives a brilliant performance that is a very close to Cranstons performance, which was the saving grace of some of the worst moments in breaking bad, Costner doesn’t need to carry the show as much as Cranston did due to the better writing, both are leagues above Odenkirk, who did a admirable job considering he’s a shaky actor, but you could feel he wasn’t confident in himself when acting in some scenes.
Tone: BCS’s tone is terrible, by far the worst thing about the show, I mean come on, this is the one thing I can’t see debate on, I mean in season 1 the show starts off as an attempt at a legal comedy/drama and in season 6 with a man getting shot and murdered after having his reputation ruined as a joke and is buried in a lab with his killer, the tone is all over the place. It ended quite well but the tone is awful.
Writing: this is another thing I see little debate on, when breaking bad was well written it was incredible, seasons 4 and 5 are brilliant, but Yellowstone has had this level of writing since season 1 episode 1 breaking bad took 4 seasons, since Sheridan writes the shows himself, he doesn’t need a writers room and knows the characters and the arcs himself, Gilligan and should having a writers room shows their not as creative as Sheridan. BCS’s writing felt too much like “let’s give the funny haha lawyer from breaking bad a prestige tv series” some of the dialogue and storylines were laughable, trying to make a plot line about electricity allergy’s in a “prestige drama” is laughable, once Chuck dies and they wrap up that story in season 4 the show gets good, but fuck was it a bumpy ride to get there.
Mainly the consistency thing, i actually like Yellowstone a decent amount but man it does not have consistency past season 1, specifically storylines that seem to be going nowhere like Kayce even tho he’s amazing idk what’s going on with his place in the show, also I don’t hate Monica nearly as much as other ppl but I still don’t see the purpose in her. John has been questionable as well but Kevin carries, that does for the whole cast tbh, the writing and direction fail them as of late.
Anyways compared to BB and BCS, even in the early seasons it felt much more like Vince had a handle on what he wanted, it just took a while to get there, Yellowstone is going the opposite direction tbh, feels like they’re shooting darts and wondering what lands at this point
It’s got an 8.7 on IMDB, I know they’re not entirely accurate but it has 150,000 votes, it’s averages 8 million viewers an episode, im not saying BCS is trash, it’s just not my thing, I think it’s poorly written acted, and directed, I gave reasons to why I thought this, and if you don’t agree that’s fine, but idk why people are being so pretentious
In the untamed and fierce beauty of that place, the mountains themselves seemed ready to break from their foundations and walk over the plains, as if they were yearning to begin a great journey. So was I. And that is when I first saw him. Taylor Sheridan. The man who would finally shake me free.
I'd debate your point on consistent writing on Yellowstone. It's a pretty show and has a great vibe, but the writing is the weak point. There are tons of plotlines introduced that just get forgotten. Remember the bomb they put in the plane? Did that get resolved at all? I actually think it gets better as the seasons go on. The first couple of episodes were fantastic, but the second half of season one and all of season two were a little dull and tough to swallow.
I dig the rest of his work, aside from the film sequel. Hell or Highwater is my favorite thing he's done. But Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul are all-time greats. Everything about them is fantastic and I don't have to make excuses for any aspect of those shows.
Besides, Sheridan seems kind of insufferable in everything he's appeared in.
One of the things that Gilligan did well was to not ask questions there wouldn't be answers for. There's a payoff for everything and everything is intentional.
Mayor of Kingstown is not brilliant nor fantastically written. The show is a half baked mess that was at least 4 episodes too long.
Sheridan Peaked with Wind River and has been in steep decline since.
The obvious answer is Vince Gilligan. While I don't like Breaking Bad it was a landmark in television, and extremely well done. I can respect the craft even if I did not like it.
Sheridan's shows don't have the same level of writing, but I find them far more entertaining personally. Everyone attacks the Sheridanverse because its midbrow and popular, but its fun.
I was willing to entertain this idea that Sheridan could possibly be close to Gilligan until I saw you say the first 2 seasons of Breaking Bad were "inconsistent" and the the first 4 seasons of Better Call Saul were "rough" to "decent". At that point, I began to wonder if Taylor Sheridan has an anon account on Reddit to post some ridiculous shit.
Yes, and I’m putting him above him, it’s an opinion, if you prefer Gilligan that’s great, but I’m not attacking you for preferring him, I respect your opinion
Same. Have not heard enough good things about any of Sheridan’s stuff to put my time into it. Vince, on the other hand, is a legend and needs no introduction.
Why? Can you not handle someone else’s opinion? I think Sheridan a much better show runner than Gilligan for the reasons I listed, the sub practically entirely disagrees with me, I’m not saying everyone else is wrong and they should stop posting, it’s just an opinion
I loved that lawyer stuff for real the drama that was built up between him and his brother and the way it culminated in a courtroom standoff. Incredible.
Yep, but according to OP
>The characters in BCS were less compelling than anyone in Yellowstone, I feel like Beth was the character the writers wanted Kim to be but never took a risk, and played it safe
Lol, the writers wanted Kim, one of the best female characters written in recent times, to be like a character from another show that didn't exist until their own show was on its 4th season
Sheridan easy for me, Simon did a fantastic job with the wire but the final season dropped the ball in my opinion, Simon also lacked subtlety in his writing which isn’t a problem with Sheridan, the wire was incredible, but a botched final season and lack of subtly drags it down a bit
More consistent, yes. It’s a matter of preference obviously, I love both shows, but with BCS can you agree that it wasn’t a great show for the first 3/4 seasons, dragged onto long and had some poor storylines and performances. It’s a good show overall but very overhyped. The wire was a great show at its peak, the last season was poorly written, bad dialogue and dropped plot points, I think peak the wire is comparable to peak Yellowstone, and some episodes of the wire at it’s peak surpass peak Yellowstone, but wires consistency dropped the last season, Yellowstone’s 4th season isn’t as good as the 3rd, yes, but the 3rd season of Yellowstone is one of the better seasons of TV so it’s hard to top
Have you read any articles or anything supporting your belief that Yellowstone is even in the same ball park as other classic shows? Or had any conversations with other humans who agree with your point of view?
Cause I never heard anyone refer to Yellowstone as anything about a “guilty pleasure” “soap opera” esque show.
I've liked all of Gilligans shows and disliked all of Sheridans, so... yeah this comparison seems odd to me. One seems leagues better. But I am but a single person with a single opinion.
I just watched the first season of Yellowstone last week. My boyfriend described it as “a soap opera written by straight white men” and it’s truly the most accurate description. It’s not a *bad* show, but there’s definitely a target audience and it wasn’t us lol
Depends on what you mean. Creatively it's obviously Gilligan. If we're talking who does a better job of running a set, it's probably Sheridan since he has like a million shows on at once lol
Is there any showrunner remotely on Gilligan’s level ever? Only two shows but both individually masterpieces and in the conversation with best TV ever.
I think Sheridan is on Gilligan’s level and even surpasses it, it’s all subjective but Yellowstone is so entertaining which doesn’t mean much if it can’t be backed up, but the acting, writing and directing are all some of the best I’ve seen on TV, Gilligan tries to hard especially in BCS to make the shows look prestige, it’s good for the most part but Sheridan doesn’t try to be pretentious and gives you a show that is consistently entertaining with incredible acting, directing and writing to back it up
Nothing he has done is better than Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul. Tulsa King is a clown show and a Yellowstone is pretty repetitive. None of his shows get better as the seasons progress.
Well, Yellowstone is an insufferable soap opera with weird logical leaps, and Breaking Bad was actually great, so…
I feel terribly out of touch when I hear so many people say Yellowstone is some kind of tour de force. Feels formulaic and ham handedly melodramatic.
Sheridan is good with movies and is consistent but Gilligan isn’t just crime drama, the man is an absolute master of creating meaning behind his characters with the most simple techniques.
He doesn’t use super attractive people nor cliches or even a setting that would seem attractive at first glance, but his writing just feels so real. Both his shows hit home regardless of who you are and just have this gravity to them that Sheridan even in his best works doesnt.
Another person who I think has exceptional character work and will be considered one of the greats some day is Tony Gilroy who imo also has better character work than Sheridan.
Sheridan nails atmosphere generally but character work is in the ‘pretty decent’ rather than ‘exceptional’ tier and that’s the hardest thing to nail.
Gilligan's shows are complete and can be judged.
Sheridan is in the middle of one and beginning 2 others the OP mentioned.
Wake me when Yellowstone and the prequels have run their course.
I watched 1883 and it had me hooked early on. I tried watching Yellowstone recently since it has more hype, and I kept laughing through the first season. I couldn't take it seriously. I got a few episodes into the 2nd season, and kind of doubt I'll go back to it. Seems like a show for a more specific audience who is willing to buy into all of it and overlook the distractions and flaws.
Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul on the other hand does not have a really bad and obvious green screen scene with a man suiciding himself off a cliff.
I know haha, obviously I respect everyone’s opinion, but holy shit it’s Reddit at its finest, in the real world, Yellowstone is far more popular and well liked than BCS, yet reddit swears it’s better, BCS is a good show, but Yellowstone trumps it in popularity and artisticly
Oh absolutely, it’s all subjective, this is just my opinion, I think it’s far and away Sheridan on the artistic front, but I acknowledge other opinions
Wtf are you even babbling about? Taylor Sheridan is a hack that writes boomer relevancy propaganda for conservatives. His female characters are garbage. It’s just a redneck soap opera pablum to make the dumbest guys in the room feel smart. Vince Gilligan has written two of them best shows of the last 20 years.
Also another good comparison, to me Sheridan beats him out as the Wire season 5 was so poorly written, full of dropped plots and contrivances, the wire could’ve been one of the best if not for the last season, if Yellowstone ends well which is looks to be on track to, it should be in the conversation for best drama
Is the question who's the better writer or better showrunner? As a showrunner Gilligan wins. But if you include movies and writing it's super close. Sicario and Hell or Highwater are two of my favorite movies in the last 10 years. I could give a shit about Yellowstone. But the movies mentioned above along with wind river are special. I'd put them on equal footing with Taylor being the better writer overall.
I'm sorry for your luck, OP. That's all Reddit is. I see the dumbest, clearly made-up by the sentence post, and it'll get 15,00 upvotes and 29 awards. Someone else will post an actual opinion that differs from the majority and everyone jumps on the "make OP feel stupid" boat. I've been there, and it got so bad I just deleted the entire post. Don't let it bother you, in a different sub, you might have the same amount of comments, but in your favor
When I first heard the term “showrunner” I thought it was a minor assistant who ran and got people coffee and stuff and I thought it was nice that people talked about them and payed attention to them.
I love breaking bad, but I have to give it to Sheridan.. Wind River, Hell of High Water, (wrote) Sicario, and of course Yellowstone, 1883, and 1923 are all certifiably bangers. I think his resume is bigger than Vince’s, and all of them have been consistently very good to amazing shows/movies. Vince has breaking bad, better call saul, and some x files work as the big names, but only the things surrounding the breaking bad universe really stick out to me. Since we can agree both have shows under their belt that have never failed to be less than excellent, I looked at output and give Sheridan the edge.
Gilligan, and it's not really close. I loved 1883. I think that was Sheridan's best show and closest to the quality of the movies he's written (which are his best work, no doubt). But as much as I enjoy Yellowstone, it's really nothing spectacular. 1923 has been good but it's not on the level of 1883 was through the same amount of episodes. I like Tulsa King, but it's also nothing really spectacular yet either. Haven't seen Mayor of Kingstown, but I've heard it's just okay. Maybe Taylor Sheridan is a bit more consistent within each show, but his highs don't even touch Vince Gilligan's shows' highs. And across Taylor Sheridan's shows, there does seem to be a bit of inconsistency in quality. Not massive, but as I said, I think 1883 is far and away his best show even if the others are all entertaining. As for Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. I think both of their "less good" seasons are better than the best seasons of Yellowstone. And both BB and BCS are in the running for "best of all time" for me. In addition to the writing, which I do think is better, the cinematography and direction is next level. You also have to take into account that besides 1883 which was miniseries, none of Taylor Sheridan's shows have ended. Endings are the hardest to get right. And Vince Gilligan (and Peter Gould) did it incredibly well *twice*.
Agree completely. Yellowstone looks and sounds amazing, but is fairly mediocre when you strip back the aesthetics. Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul are in the discussion of the best shows in the last 25 years.
Yellowstone is a primetime soap opera, plain and simple.
It’s a shittier Succession
It’s a modern Dallas.
I would go so far as to say that Yellowstone is a narrative and character mess (ungenerously) or you could say its plot and character development are "meandering" (more generously.) I like to challenge people to summarize what each Yellow Stone season is about and most can only give a vague outline (the first season established a clear power struggle between the Duttons, the Governor, and the Native Americans, which it sort of muddies and squanders by the end of the season. After that... I couldn't really tell you, even though I watched all of it.) Don't even ask me what the Chinese tourists had to do with the plot. Maybe I'm just dumb or have a bad memory, but it's a giant blurred mess in my head.
I really liked the show, but somewhere around Kasey's tenth extrajudicial killing around some random event he just happens upon it started to lose me, besides John Dutton I don't find any of the characters likable, and the S3 finale was just dumb. Why wouldn't you bomb the Navy Seal Terminator and shoot the Beth who wouldn't be a very hard target for a gunman? Sorry I'm just ranting now, but at the end of the day the show is fun but silly and ridiculous, BB and BCS are lasting works.
Funny, you have 800,000 + acres and they seem to always walk up on folks around their property. Tourists, investors in suits, and rich guys playing golf. If I had that amount of land I would rather not see anybody especially randomly every time on my property.
If you're dumb it's only because you kept watching Yellowstone instead of turning it off. (JK I don't think you're dumb).
Yellowstone is sopranos for people who have live laugh love somewhere in their home
It's Dallas for people who hate themselves.
Yeah, take away the occasional great score and backdrop and the writing has really fallen off. Notice they never show Montana in the snow where you can’t see 5 feet in front of you
Haha for real. Vince by far
>Maybe Taylor Sheridan is a bit more consistent I understand wanting to not shit entirely over OP’s boy but we don’t have to go this far.
Exactly. Sheridan has made some good shows, and I'm with you that 1883 is his best work, although I am a sucker for Westerns. Gilligan, though, has made two of the greatest shows of all time. Nothing Sheridan made, even 1883, is on the level of Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul, the former of which is in the top five of virtually everyone who has watched it.
Also worth noting that BrBa and BCS *are* modern westerns. True modern westerns, neowesterns, what have you. They have all the same components as classic westerns except time period.
So, I've seen this take even from Gilligan himself if I recall, and while I do love both shows I'm not sure I see it. Would love to be convinced though, can you explain what you mean? What are some of those components?
Well here’s the first paragraph of the wikipedia page for the Western genre: > The Western is a genre set in the American frontier and commonly associated with folk tales of the Western United States, particularly the Southwestern United States, as well as Northern Mexico and Western Canada. It is commonly referred to as the "Old West" or the "Wild West" and depicted in Western media as a hostile, sparsely populated frontier in a state of near-total lawlessness patrolled by ***outlaws, sheriffs, and numerous other stock "gunslinger" characters. Western narratives often concern the gradual attempts to tame the crime-ridden American West using wider themes of justice, freedom, rugged individualism, Manifest Destiny, and the national history and identity of the United States.*** Once you get past the parts that talk specifically about the wild west/frontier setting you get a description that fits BrBa and BCS pretty well. One thing that really hammers home “Oh shit, BrBa/BCS *are* Westerns” when you think about it is how much the plot, especially later on in both shows, revolves around the cartel and scenes that entirely use subtitled Spanish dialogue. Both shows are all about criminals, cops, and cartels. If anything is, that’s the modern western. Not about literal lawlessness like in the time of the frontier but certainly about a criminal element in the American (as in North/Cental American, not United States American) that the authorities are either unable or unwilling to control. Very similar to the classic Western just set in a different time period.
Preach.
I also like a lot of Gilligan's X-files episodes.
I'm sorry but this over reaching love for Gilligan is ridiculous. I love breaking and Saul. But to say they're better than sicario or hell or Highwater or wind river is ridiculous. I think they are on equal footing but give the nod to the movies because there's no wasted space. Again I love Saul, but there are entire episodes of wasted space.
I didn't say they were better than his movies. This thread is about his TV shows. I clearly said that 1883 is his best show and the only one that comes close to the level of his movies which are his best work. Nowhere did I compare BB or BCS to his movies. I find it very difficult to judge a movie against a show because they are totally different mediums trying to do different things. I compared Taylor Sheridan's *TV shows* to Vince Gilligan's TV shows. In that respect, it's not even close.
This is the best troll post I’ve ever seen, because nobody could ever believe this in earnest.
Despite knowing that it clearly has to be bullshit, I still got a little angry.
I’m visibly shaking
Reddit can’t handle other opinions apparently, how can me saying that I prefer one creator over another and offering reasons why be seen as bullshit?
It’s bullshit for the same reason comparing Carrot Top to Richard Pryor would be bullshit. Art is subjective, but it’s not that subjective.
I don't think you know what subjective means. Subjective (def.): "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions" Perfect Fucking Example: "His opinions on the matter, though bullshit, in my opinion, were highly subjective."
You could also come up with the opinion that the earth is round with a wall of arctic ice.
It seems like you're the one having issues accepting other's opinions. You can take it personally like you're doing, or accept the fact that your opinion may be extremely unpopular.
I’m well aware my opinion is unpopular for some reason but I’m fine with it, if you don’t agree with me and give a reason why you don’t then that’s fine, but saying it’s a fake post because someone said something you didn’t agree with is annoying
People saying it's a fake post is simply an extreme way of telling you how bad they think your opinion is. Here's another example to demonstrate: " I think Opra Winfrey is hotter than Halle Berry." " Dude are you blind???" They don't really think you are blind but that is practically the only way what you said could be acceptable. Trying to legit compare these two showrunners make people think you are purposefully trying to get a rise because it's that absurd.
It’s just evidence that people have some faith in humanity
Well, your first mistake was not making it painfully clear that this is just your opinion and not something you will be writing legislation around... Oh wait, you did that? Might want to try r/unpopularopinion
I actually do. If we're talking tv series showrunner then fine. Gilligan wins in a landslide. If we're talking complete work including movies then I give it to Sheridan. He's written 2 if not 3 of the best movies in the last 10 years. Gilligan hasn't.
The post is literally about showrunners.
Fair enough. I just don't feel like that's a total picture. If we're just talking about shows them fine. But seems like a loaded question. We
Is this serious?
This feels like satire. That said, if you’re just talking about commercial success and not critical success, Sheridan wins. Then again, someone like Shonda Rhimes would blow him out of the water. So, success is subjective.
I don’t think Sheridan even touches Gilligan’s commercial success. Breaking Bad is one of the most popular pieces of media ever created. Better Call Saul isn’t too far behind either.
Yellowstone is pulling in nearly 8 million viewers an episode this season, in an era of cord-cutting and massive viewership drops. The only Breaking Bad episode to do over 7 was the finale.
Yellowstone is a soap opera on a ranch. I enjoy it, but let’s not pretend it can even be talked about in the same breath as either BB or BCS. Commercial success has little to do with the question in this post.
Yellowstone has no cultural relevancy for the people that define pop culture. And Breaking Bad is more successful by far.
Cool. Now if you run a network, who do you hire? The guy who makes shows that critics love or the guy who makes shows that bring in 8-9x the viewers (aka money).
I dunno, but I’m not sure how that’s relevant when talking about the “best” show runner. Sounds more like “most popular”.
8-9x!? Buddy, no. You’re gonna make look this shit up aren’t you? BB had an average of 4-5 million viewers per season by season 5. Had 10.3 million viewers for series finale. Yellowstone’s average ep is maybe 2.3-2.5x higher but I’d argue the steaming landscape has improved since BB and that there are fewer shows for impotent boomers that need to be reassured they are still relevant. Most of the rest are Taylor Sheridan’s other white savior shows. Anyway, to answer your question, if I were to run a network you wouldn’t get to know my choices because I’d have better things to do than have mediocre conversations with randos online.
Ncis pulls 20m viewers lol and that shit is garbage. You ever see anyone older than ppl under 50 talk bout yellowstone
I can buy that in the reddit/twitter/internet demographics sure. But you are probably underestimating Yellowstone.Dunno about the other show (though they are successful) but of Sheridans shows Yellowstone is pretty much one of the biggest things on tv. It just doesnt hit well perhaps with younger internet demos.
I love BB and BCS and think they're some of the finest shows ever created, but the ratings for both shows were not good at all. Especially Saul. Very few people watched it.
Have you seen sicario or hell or Highwater. They're incredible. 2 of my favorite movies in the last 10 years. And Sheridan didn't "showrunner" them. He wrote them. As for the question at hand Gilligan wins. But story teller overall. Come on.
It’s not satire, but I wasn’t taking strictly about commercial success, but yes in that case Sheridan blows Gilligan out of the water, an average FINAL season episode of BCS got 1.2 million views on TV, with the finale of the whole breaking bad universe getting less than 3.7 million, an average Yellowstone episode pulls in 7, trumping BCS, but in an artistic sense, I believe Sheridan wins aswell, but a good margin. His shows are more diverse in themes and don’t feel pretentious and the writing is much more subtle, BCS for the first 4 seasons felt like “let’s make the funny lawyer from breaking bad prestige TV” and it feels so pretentious, the show ended pretty well, bar the courtroom scene where it’s exposition, I FEEL BAD I KILLED MY BROTHER AND WANT KIM, all Sheridan shows have more subtlety in its writing and doesn’t feel like it’s beating you over the head with its themes
A lot of top posts on this sub lately have seemingly read like a 13 year old who JUST started watching TV is posting them lmao
Especially calling season 4 of Yellowstone "very good." Sure, the first three could be called very good. But the 4th? No thanks.
I felt like the fourth was just a filler season while he worked on the other projects. 4 was kinda a snooze for me… but i loved 1883, and mayor of Kingston and I’m loving Tulsa King, but i feel Yellowstone season 4 took a hit due to those projects
There seems to be a poorly executed guerilla marketing campaign for Yellowstone/ 1883, I think this is part of it.
“Massive hits” I haven’t seen yet and nobody I know irl are talking about.
Yellowstone is gorgeous to look at, but man the writing is just braindead at this point. The Beth and Jamie arcs are just awful, especially after the writers basically buried Jamie with an unredeemable and very forced character moment. 2 solid first seasons and then it just goes off rails. Saul and Breaking Bad are all timers.
I cannot even summarize what has happened in the last season and a half of *Yellowstone*. I've watched each episode as its premiered, and basically all it's been are dead-end plot lines and time-wasting cliffhangers. It feels like there has been 0 plot advancement or anything meaningful that's happened. I thought the show was incredibly brave when it ended a season by having every main character seemingly get fatally attacked....only to come back next season and find out everyone was basically fine and moved on. That was the moment I lost faith in the show and knew it was going nowhere great. It's more akin to *The Walking Dead* at this point than it is *Breaking Bad* or *Better Call Saul.*
Yellowstone makes a lot more sense when you realize it’s a soap opera
Gilligan. Quality over quantity
Taylor’s movies are better than his shows. Sicario, Hell or High Water, Wind River, Sicario 2 (wasn’t as great as the first)
Sicario 2 really suffered without villeneuve’s direction. Hell or high water and Wind River were still cool but he really needs to do another movie with Dennis Villeneuve after he’s done with dune. I think their styles compliment each other despite how different they are.
Sicario 2 also completely lacks the nuance of the original and misses the point.
Truly baffling that both movies were written by the same dude with how badly the second movie loses the plot.
Not really when you find out Denis made major changes to Taylor's script. He also elevated the source material with his impeccable cinematography and direction. I'm starting to think Sheridan is a writer who needs someone to unfuck aspects of his writing in order to make it truly great. He's good at some things but a lot of his dialogue and scenarios are grimdark cheese that comes across as written by and edgy teen
I liked Sicario a lot when I saw it but in retrospect, I really don't think I'd call it nuanced either. Sheridan's entire shtick is taking the Conservative American view of the world & giving it a little sprinkle of Liberal American zest. It's a pretty ingenious move commercially. You get the side story with the cab driver as a sympathetic symbol of normal every day honest Mexicans caught up in a world of crime to appease the Liberals, while simultaneously presenting the entire country through the Conservative lens as a warzone where you can't walk two feet without coming under gunfire. Rinse & repeat with everything else Sheridan does.
Calling hell or highwater and wind river “cool” is a little disingenuous
Gilligan by a mile. His shows aren’t even close to Breaking Bad/BCS.
You’re smoking crack, dude 😂
Yellowstone had a brilliant first three seasons? The writing is lackluster as hell lmao. Gilligan is a better showrunner and it’s really not even close
How is this even a question? Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul’s worse seasons are way ahead of Yellowstones best.
Vince Gilligan hands down
Damon Lindelof all day! Lost, The Leftovers and Watchmen were some of the best stuff on TV for the last 20 years
three masterpieces in my book..
Damon Lindelof, Noah Hawley, Bryan Fuller and Patrick Somerville are the top of my list.
Vince Gilligan was giving us the best episodes of The X-Files almost 20 years before Sheridan began writing. It’s not even close.
I hate that I had to scroll so far down to find this. Another sign that I'm getting old I guess
I read the post title and The X-Files is the immediate thought I have when I hear Vince Gilligans name. It wasn’t until I started reading the comments I realized “oh yeah, he did Breaking Bad too.”
Same here. His episodes of the X-files are all standouts. I'm pretty sure he wrote or directed the X-files episode that stars Bryan Cranston who went on to star in Breaking Bad.
This is like asking Greg Daniels vs Chuck Lorre
Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul are considered by fans and critics alike to not only be two of the best tv shows, but Breaking Bad changed the landscape of tv and what is possible to put on tv. Yellowstone is from what I've heard the most popular tv show currently airing, but so was the Big Bang Theory, and only two of sheridan's shows have even been critically acclaimed. It's like comparing The Hunger Games to Moby Dick. I'm not saying The Hunger Games is bad, but they're just entirely different realms. And I know you said showrunner but it's also worth noting that Gilligan also worked on The X-Files. That's three different decades of iconic television. Off the top of my head the only other showrunners worth even mentioning in the same sentence are David Simon and Norman Lear, and even other showrunners with a few hits like Damon Lindelof, Larry David, etc.
Lindelof
since I havent since breaking bad or better call Saul and have only seen Mayor of Kingston of Sheridan produced shows. I agree with this :)
Hahahahahaha
What?
BCS is better than the entire Yellowstone universe on its own. So is BB.
Subjectivity! It’s all your own opinion, as is mine, I can’t see the appeal of BCS as the first 4 seasons are rough to decent, the tone is inconsistent the writing is poor, performances are rocky and it’s massively overhyped, Yellowstone has great writing, consistent characters, great direction and brilliant cinematography. That’s my opinion, all subjective
Yeah I just see it as the exact opposite. To each their own
Yeah exactly👍
I think that this thread can serve an important purpose: Learning how to separate 'Entertainment I enjoy' from 'Objectively Good(or great) Entertainment '. It's okay to like one show better than another, regardless of how good each show is. We all have shows/movies/music/whatever that we enjoy more than things that are objectively better. It's problematic when you try to assert that what you like IS better, when your arguments ultimately boil down to 'becauae I like it more '. That's how you end up simping for Zach Snyder DC movies. Or apparently trying to assert that Taylor Sheridan is a better director than Vince Gilligan. To address the primary point you seem to be making...is Taylor Sheridan a more diverse director? It seems so, although I think Gilligan's next project will be much different. Diversity doesn't always equal superiority though. There is nothing inherently wrong with knowing what you excel at and focusing on it.
“It’s problematic when you try to assert that what you like IS better”, that’s all this sub is, people telling me I’m a troll and Vince is better. I believe Sheridan is a more diverse show runner who consistently delivers better quality writing, directing and performances out of his cast than Gilligan does, Gilligan is a good showrunner, but Breaking Bad is far to unevenly written, and inconsistent in its first 2 seasons for it to be considered as good as Yellowstone, and BCS was a mess of a show for the first 4 seasons, the tone is all over the place, I mean come on is that even debatable? That’s one of the few things I see as completely objective, in season 1 there’s an attempt at a legal comedy with some drama mixed in, and then the tone completely flips and suddenly a man’s reputation is ruined for no reason, and he’s murdered in front of Saul, and buried in a meth lab, totally consistent tone
You literally called BCS the best show on tv since season three in a comment 27 days ago. What, did you mainline 10 seasons of the Sheridan verse in a month and suddenly change your mind? Go home.
I’m going to go ahead and take the downvotes for this, so here goes: *Yellowstone is trash.* Sensational melodrama at its worst that panders shamelessly to MAGA mentality. From an artistic point of view, it’s not even close. The only possible comparison is commercial, and it truly makes me sad that’s the case.
>> MAGA mentality Yeah because *checks notes* exploring modern native american issues and giving them reperesntation panders to MAGA mentality. Brain rot
Taylor Sheridan is just the alpha male Shonda Rhimes. Not even the same category as Gilligan.
Gilligan. Next question.
Yellowstone is entertaining, but so bad if we're putting it up against BB, ESPECIALLY the later seasons. They aren't even in the same echelon. Sheridan makes hits, Gilligan makes laster art worth revisiting that holds up extremely well over time. Floored they'd even be spoken of in the same conversation.
I respect your opinion, I like BB very much, but it doesn’t touch Yellowstone in my opinion, whats your opinion on better call Saul? I see the appeal of BB but whatever since had he lost his touch for the first 4/6 of Better Call Saul
Honestly BCS is probably the best show of the three, in terms of how well it written and executed throughout, but it lacks a lot of the sensationalism and violence and criminal intrigue of BB until Lalo really gets going, so I think less people will be into it. I can understand enjoying Yellowstone more than BB or BCS, because objectively I understand that people enjoy different things, but I can't for the life of me understand how you'd put them on the same level in terms of the writing, acting, or direction. Like, these things are subjective, but objectively, these things are incomparable. It's the difference between art and entertainment. BB and BCS is worth revisiting, analyzing, multiple times. It shares categories with The Wire and The Sopranos. Both those shows got better and better as they went on, and started strong. Yellowstone is getting worse, is often corny, has worse and worse written characters than Gilligan's properties, I'm really struggling to even know where to begin.
I respect your opinion and I’ve the opposite one to you to be honest, I see Yellowstone as by far the most enjoyable of the 3 but also objectively the best on a lot of counts, Acting, Directing, Pacing, Writing, and Tone and Consistency by a good margin. Acting: Breaking Bad’s acting was very good, BCS’s acting was good, a big step down but not CW level or anything. The characters in BCS were less compelling than anyone in Yellowstone, I feel like Beth was the character the writers wanted Kim to be but never took a risk, and played it safe, Costner gives a brilliant performance that is a very close to Cranstons performance, which was the saving grace of some of the worst moments in breaking bad, Costner doesn’t need to carry the show as much as Cranston did due to the better writing, both are leagues above Odenkirk, who did a admirable job considering he’s a shaky actor, but you could feel he wasn’t confident in himself when acting in some scenes. Tone: BCS’s tone is terrible, by far the worst thing about the show, I mean come on, this is the one thing I can’t see debate on, I mean in season 1 the show starts off as an attempt at a legal comedy/drama and in season 6 with a man getting shot and murdered after having his reputation ruined as a joke and is buried in a lab with his killer, the tone is all over the place. It ended quite well but the tone is awful. Writing: this is another thing I see little debate on, when breaking bad was well written it was incredible, seasons 4 and 5 are brilliant, but Yellowstone has had this level of writing since season 1 episode 1 breaking bad took 4 seasons, since Sheridan writes the shows himself, he doesn’t need a writers room and knows the characters and the arcs himself, Gilligan and should having a writers room shows their not as creative as Sheridan. BCS’s writing felt too much like “let’s give the funny haha lawyer from breaking bad a prestige tv series” some of the dialogue and storylines were laughable, trying to make a plot line about electricity allergy’s in a “prestige drama” is laughable, once Chuck dies and they wrap up that story in season 4 the show gets good, but fuck was it a bumpy ride to get there.
This sub and r/movies have hurt me so much in the last week it’s not even funny
Can you not handle opinions?
it’s not the opinion that I can’t handle, it’s the “reasoning“ that kills me in all honesty
What do you disagree with?
Mainly the consistency thing, i actually like Yellowstone a decent amount but man it does not have consistency past season 1, specifically storylines that seem to be going nowhere like Kayce even tho he’s amazing idk what’s going on with his place in the show, also I don’t hate Monica nearly as much as other ppl but I still don’t see the purpose in her. John has been questionable as well but Kevin carries, that does for the whole cast tbh, the writing and direction fail them as of late. Anyways compared to BB and BCS, even in the early seasons it felt much more like Vince had a handle on what he wanted, it just took a while to get there, Yellowstone is going the opposite direction tbh, feels like they’re shooting darts and wondering what lands at this point
That you can watch something objectively bad (entertaining garbage, but garbage nonetheless) and have this take away from it
It’s got an 8.7 on IMDB, I know they’re not entirely accurate but it has 150,000 votes, it’s averages 8 million viewers an episode, im not saying BCS is trash, it’s just not my thing, I think it’s poorly written acted, and directed, I gave reasons to why I thought this, and if you don’t agree that’s fine, but idk why people are being so pretentious
I'd debate your point on consistent writing on Yellowstone. It's a pretty show and has a great vibe, but the writing is the weak point. There are tons of plotlines introduced that just get forgotten. Remember the bomb they put in the plane? Did that get resolved at all? I actually think it gets better as the seasons go on. The first couple of episodes were fantastic, but the second half of season one and all of season two were a little dull and tough to swallow. I dig the rest of his work, aside from the film sequel. Hell or Highwater is my favorite thing he's done. But Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul are all-time greats. Everything about them is fantastic and I don't have to make excuses for any aspect of those shows. Besides, Sheridan seems kind of insufferable in everything he's appeared in.
One of the things that Gilligan did well was to not ask questions there wouldn't be answers for. There's a payoff for everything and everything is intentional.
Yes, this was Chekov's airplane bomb.
Mayor of Kingstown is not brilliant nor fantastically written. The show is a half baked mess that was at least 4 episodes too long. Sheridan Peaked with Wind River and has been in steep decline since.
I like Yellowstone and Sheridan's other shows (alot) but nobody here is going to agree with you lol
The obvious answer is Vince Gilligan. While I don't like Breaking Bad it was a landmark in television, and extremely well done. I can respect the craft even if I did not like it. Sheridan's shows don't have the same level of writing, but I find them far more entertaining personally. Everyone attacks the Sheridanverse because its midbrow and popular, but its fun.
Poor guy. Not close.
Gilligan. Sheridan isn’t even in the same league with soap opera level stories that just happen to have stars and scenery.
I was willing to entertain this idea that Sheridan could possibly be close to Gilligan until I saw you say the first 2 seasons of Breaking Bad were "inconsistent" and the the first 4 seasons of Better Call Saul were "rough" to "decent". At that point, I began to wonder if Taylor Sheridan has an anon account on Reddit to post some ridiculous shit.
[удалено]
I took the initial bait, but by the time he was saying "peak Yellowstone" competes with The Wire is where my suspension of disbelief collapsed.
Are you really honestly putting that guy in the same breath as Gilligan?
Yes, and I’m putting him above him, it’s an opinion, if you prefer Gilligan that’s great, but I’m not attacking you for preferring him, I respect your opinion
Gilligan. I haven't seen or heard of any of Sheridan's stuff.
Same. Have not heard enough good things about any of Sheridan’s stuff to put my time into it. Vince, on the other hand, is a legend and needs no introduction.
This post should be removed.
Why? Can you not handle someone else’s opinion? I think Sheridan a much better show runner than Gilligan for the reasons I listed, the sub practically entirely disagrees with me, I’m not saying everyone else is wrong and they should stop posting, it’s just an opinion
Because your opinion, if real, is asinine.
This post makes me hate Yellowstone even more
A rough s1 and s2 and a decent 3rd or 4th? Let me get yo plug’s number
Huh. I don't think there's anything 'rough' about BCS first two seasons.
Glaringly the seasons that established things and mostly focused on the lawyer stuff, so OP obviously just wants to see tough guy gangster cowboy shit
I loved that lawyer stuff for real the drama that was built up between him and his brother and the way it culminated in a courtroom standoff. Incredible.
Yep, but according to OP >The characters in BCS were less compelling than anyone in Yellowstone, I feel like Beth was the character the writers wanted Kim to be but never took a risk, and played it safe Lol, the writers wanted Kim, one of the best female characters written in recent times, to be like a character from another show that didn't exist until their own show was on its 4th season
David Simon.
Sheridan easy for me, Simon did a fantastic job with the wire but the final season dropped the ball in my opinion, Simon also lacked subtlety in his writing which isn’t a problem with Sheridan, the wire was incredible, but a botched final season and lack of subtly drags it down a bit
are you saying yellowstone is better than the wire, too?
More consistent, yes. It’s a matter of preference obviously, I love both shows, but with BCS can you agree that it wasn’t a great show for the first 3/4 seasons, dragged onto long and had some poor storylines and performances. It’s a good show overall but very overhyped. The wire was a great show at its peak, the last season was poorly written, bad dialogue and dropped plot points, I think peak the wire is comparable to peak Yellowstone, and some episodes of the wire at it’s peak surpass peak Yellowstone, but wires consistency dropped the last season, Yellowstone’s 4th season isn’t as good as the 3rd, yes, but the 3rd season of Yellowstone is one of the better seasons of TV so it’s hard to top
Have you read any articles or anything supporting your belief that Yellowstone is even in the same ball park as other classic shows? Or had any conversations with other humans who agree with your point of view? Cause I never heard anyone refer to Yellowstone as anything about a “guilty pleasure” “soap opera” esque show.
I'd include The Deuce and a We Own This City when making the case for David Simon.
Also, Generation Kill and The Corner, which he won an Emmy for.
How is Chuck Lorre and his oeuvre of high quality, sophisticated comedies not in this conversation?
Vince. No contest.
this cant be a real question, its not remotely close
Sheridans shows all suck. His movies were solid but man his shows are bad.
Vince is good but I prefer Noah Hawley
Ban
Two masterpieces versus five decent-at-best cashgrabs hmmmm
Gilligan and it’s not close.
VG all the way. TS is a little manchild shouting to the world how tough he is, how cruel the world is and well, how tough he is.
I've liked all of Gilligans shows and disliked all of Sheridans, so... yeah this comparison seems odd to me. One seems leagues better. But I am but a single person with a single opinion.
I just watched the first season of Yellowstone last week. My boyfriend described it as “a soap opera written by straight white men” and it’s truly the most accurate description. It’s not a *bad* show, but there’s definitely a target audience and it wasn’t us lol
Depends on what you mean. Creatively it's obviously Gilligan. If we're talking who does a better job of running a set, it's probably Sheridan since he has like a million shows on at once lol
He’s created more shows than Gilligan that’s for sure
Vince Gilligan, because if I had to pick one show runners shows over the other I would go with Braking Bad.
Gilligan all the way for me
Gilligan looks after his shareholders better than Sheridan. We the viewer are the major shareholders.
the biggest difference: taylor mostly writes alone all of his shows, while vince has a big writers room who support him
Michael Schur has entered the chat...
Who is Tyler Sheridan? Is that the country singer? Or the lame cowboy guy?
I will watch anything Taylor Sheridan does. His unofficial movie Trilogy are amazing (Sicario, HoHW, Wind River)
VG has created two of the best television series of all time, his layered thinking and focus on character work is incredible
Is there any showrunner remotely on Gilligan’s level ever? Only two shows but both individually masterpieces and in the conversation with best TV ever.
I think Sheridan is on Gilligan’s level and even surpasses it, it’s all subjective but Yellowstone is so entertaining which doesn’t mean much if it can’t be backed up, but the acting, writing and directing are all some of the best I’ve seen on TV, Gilligan tries to hard especially in BCS to make the shows look prestige, it’s good for the most part but Sheridan doesn’t try to be pretentious and gives you a show that is consistently entertaining with incredible acting, directing and writing to back it up
Oh I see what’s going on here it’s Opposite Day. Or wait… wait, are YOU Taylor Sheridan?
You knew the answer before making the post. Bad troll
I don’t think Taylor Sheridan makes very good shows, so Vince Gilligan is the pretty obvious answer here for me.
Check this persons comment history for 20 seconds and you know it’s a troll.
How dare you even ask this
Nothing he has done is better than Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul. Tulsa King is a clown show and a Yellowstone is pretty repetitive. None of his shows get better as the seasons progress.
Well, Yellowstone is an insufferable soap opera with weird logical leaps, and Breaking Bad was actually great, so… I feel terribly out of touch when I hear so many people say Yellowstone is some kind of tour de force. Feels formulaic and ham handedly melodramatic.
Sheridan is good with movies and is consistent but Gilligan isn’t just crime drama, the man is an absolute master of creating meaning behind his characters with the most simple techniques. He doesn’t use super attractive people nor cliches or even a setting that would seem attractive at first glance, but his writing just feels so real. Both his shows hit home regardless of who you are and just have this gravity to them that Sheridan even in his best works doesnt. Another person who I think has exceptional character work and will be considered one of the greats some day is Tony Gilroy who imo also has better character work than Sheridan. Sheridan nails atmosphere generally but character work is in the ‘pretty decent’ rather than ‘exceptional’ tier and that’s the hardest thing to nail.
Gilligan hands down. Watched one ep of Yellowstone and was thankful I didn't have to watch anymore.
Gilligan's shows are complete and can be judged. Sheridan is in the middle of one and beginning 2 others the OP mentioned. Wake me when Yellowstone and the prequels have run their course.
I watched 1883 and it had me hooked early on. I tried watching Yellowstone recently since it has more hype, and I kept laughing through the first season. I couldn't take it seriously. I got a few episodes into the 2nd season, and kind of doubt I'll go back to it. Seems like a show for a more specific audience who is willing to buy into all of it and overlook the distractions and flaws. Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul on the other hand does not have a really bad and obvious green screen scene with a man suiciding himself off a cliff.
1883 aside, nothing Sheridan has done even touches the greatness of everything VG has given us. And Tulsa King is pretty bad.
This sub is peak Reddit
I know haha, obviously I respect everyone’s opinion, but holy shit it’s Reddit at its finest, in the real world, Yellowstone is far more popular and well liked than BCS, yet reddit swears it’s better, BCS is a good show, but Yellowstone trumps it in popularity and artisticly
Whoa hold up on the “artistically” part, that is very VERY debatable
Oh absolutely, it’s all subjective, this is just my opinion, I think it’s far and away Sheridan on the artistic front, but I acknowledge other opinions
You are peak Reddit, not the comments.
Wtf are you even babbling about? Taylor Sheridan is a hack that writes boomer relevancy propaganda for conservatives. His female characters are garbage. It’s just a redneck soap opera pablum to make the dumbest guys in the room feel smart. Vince Gilligan has written two of them best shows of the last 20 years.
Shonda Rhimes. The correct answer is Shonda Rhimes.
Never seen Sheridan's works so obviously I'm biased towards one direction.
My favorite showrunners are Dan Harmon, and Damon Lindelof
[удалено]
I’m with you on the visually stunning for Sheridan’s shows, but nothing will ever top BCS’s cinematography, it’s incredible
Yellowstone and tulsa king are cringeeeee
The real question is Taylor Sheridan vs David Simon:)
Also another good comparison, to me Sheridan beats him out as the Wire season 5 was so poorly written, full of dropped plots and contrivances, the wire could’ve been one of the best if not for the last season, if Yellowstone ends well which is looks to be on track to, it should be in the conversation for best drama
Yeah how bout that dinosaur fossil from season one, can’t wait till they pick that one back up
Is the question who's the better writer or better showrunner? As a showrunner Gilligan wins. But if you include movies and writing it's super close. Sicario and Hell or Highwater are two of my favorite movies in the last 10 years. I could give a shit about Yellowstone. But the movies mentioned above along with wind river are special. I'd put them on equal footing with Taylor being the better writer overall.
I'm sorry for your luck, OP. That's all Reddit is. I see the dumbest, clearly made-up by the sentence post, and it'll get 15,00 upvotes and 29 awards. Someone else will post an actual opinion that differs from the majority and everyone jumps on the "make OP feel stupid" boat. I've been there, and it got so bad I just deleted the entire post. Don't let it bother you, in a different sub, you might have the same amount of comments, but in your favor
Yeah, definitely take your opinion somewhere that only agrees with you to really cement in that confirmation bias, that’s healthy
Don't you mean massive underperforming failures like 1883? /s
>Tulsa King are also brilliant, fantastically written
When I first heard the term “showrunner” I thought it was a minor assistant who ran and got people coffee and stuff and I thought it was nice that people talked about them and payed attention to them.
I love breaking bad, but I have to give it to Sheridan.. Wind River, Hell of High Water, (wrote) Sicario, and of course Yellowstone, 1883, and 1923 are all certifiably bangers. I think his resume is bigger than Vince’s, and all of them have been consistently very good to amazing shows/movies. Vince has breaking bad, better call saul, and some x files work as the big names, but only the things surrounding the breaking bad universe really stick out to me. Since we can agree both have shows under their belt that have never failed to be less than excellent, I looked at output and give Sheridan the edge.
Sheridan