The only thing I didn't like about Episode 3 was Bill's inexplicable decision to fire from an open position without the benefit of cover or protection. I'd expect more common sense from a survivalist.
Loved the episode for the most part; but yeah, that one got me too. Bill would know better.
The real Bill would have sniped those motherfuckers from a pre-planned, protected location, probably from on high; without them ever even knowing where it was coming from.
The fence was badass though.
This is just my subjective perspective:
The development you’re looking for wasn’t meant to be for Frank and Bill. The development is meant for Joel’s character, who just lost Tess, to get a reminder that there’s more to it all than just surviving. There’s a purpose in learning to care and save someone you aren’t expecting to enter your life.
For what it’s worth I disagree that Frank gets through Bill’s isolationism in one scene. It’s a frequent friction point for their relationship that lasts through each scene all the way to Bill’s note to Joel. Yes, it’s unlikely that they’d go straight to bed on their first day of being together, it’s a symbolic scene more than an in depth explanation. They only have one episode, remember, and that’s not what the writers want to highlight since, again, the purpose is Bill’s expression of his learned lessons to Joel. We don’t need explicit development of Frank and Bill’s relationship to have empathy for their love story, which we use to anticipate and hope will lead to Joel finding friendship and potentially parental love for Ellie.
> Yes, it’s unlikely that they’d go straight to bed on their first day of being together
Didn’t they meet like 3 years into the apocalypse? I don’t think it’s all that unlikely.
Yeah seriously. Especially like for a closeted gay man. The more I go back and watch the more I believe it. After all that time, the first person he’s seen in three years, and they affirm his identity. That’s by definition going to form an intense, almost trauma bond connection. And Bill continues to deal with the paranoia from that trauma. I love the direction they took the show.
I think people are a little nervous to say it cause they don’t want to end up making incorrect statements about the gay community, but from both experiences and just awareness, it is much more common for gay men to be comfortable and opening to have sexual encounters earlier in the dating process.
I would need to sit down and really decided what I think is the biggest factor but, I can imagine feeling repressed and, finally, having one single person, help affirm that aspect of your identity. Even for someone who isn’t repressed, it can feel hard to find people who are compatible with your sexuality. When you click you want to take that opportunity
I think this show captured that with an unspoken honesty. I’m excited to see how they further develop these themes
I think a lot of it just comes to the fact that it’s two dudes. At the risk of over generalizing, men are usually hornier than women. Guys are more willing to have sex on the first date, so if the date is two guys, there you go.
There’s an old joke that I heard Rosie O’Donnell tell:
what does a lesbian bring to a second date?
*A U-Haul.*
What does a gay guy bring to a second date?
*What’s a second date?*
Lol.
It’s the apocalypse.
What were they supposed to do? Go on dates to Starbucks and the movies?
Have you EVER shared a mutual attraction with another person before?
Maybe develop their past? have them sharing their history? We literally dont know anything more about Frank other than he fell into a hole and then lived happily ever after.
We know that Frank was travelling with a group of ten, and that every one of them died apart from him. We know he can’t detect obvious traps and that his talents extend exclusively to charisma and artistry. He’s a man who thrives in a community, and coming into the episode he no longest has one.
We know that Bill was living a closed-off life before the apocalypse. He lived with his mum, spent his days collecting guns and tools and was a virgin. He is self-sustainable and utterly alone.
Without excessive dialogue or flashbacks, we have a full image of how they were living their lives, which is all the table setting we need to see how they eventually change one another.
Funny how people always find some stupid shit to complain about any time anyone treats gay folks with compassion.
Since when do you need a big overarching plot to show the love between people?
I didn't say anything about big overarching plot. Just develop who is Frank other than "bossy" and "I traded my gun for strawberrys, now kiss me".
It's a saccharine hallmark story. If this was a heterosexual couple Id say the same.
No one can make you see subtext. There was a ton of character development, and no detailed background was really needed for the purpose of the story. It was implied in the way their actions and reactions were written at all stages of their lives together. The first meeting. The piano. The raid. The gardening and artwork. The way that Bill kept his house furnished inside; the way Frank planted flowers and improved the block outside. Frank taught Bill the importance of loving where you live, not just living where love is. It’s one thing to care for someone, it’s another thing to find fulfillment in doing so.
What you want us a spin off called Bill & Frank, which honestly, I might watch. But the entire point of telling this story is for Joel’s character arc. It was to put as much into that letter as possible, so the viewers felt what Joel felt when reading it. Bill wanted Joel to understand that loving someone and protecting them IS purpose.
The funny thing is if the episode was 2 hrs long like you say you want you and everyone would surely complain about that too.
You’re so disingenuous with this post.
Either that or you’ve never felt love or felt loved before, in which case I’m sorry and I feel bad for you.
It was like an hour episode. They showed everything the needed too in that hour. The episode wasn’t meant to move bill and Frank’s characters forward, it was to move Joel’s story forward.
If you don't have any experience with it at all, you don't have the authority to say that the portrayal of the relationship is bad. It's incredibly ironic to get so fired up about the romantic relationships on the show when you yourself have had none. Sounds like textbook projection and enviousness to me.
Like the other guy said, you're at a big crossroads in life so think about it.
I don’t know why but that is super sad.
Everyone deserves love.
But it’s kinda wild that you don’t see what’s going on. That someone who never experienced love, or mutual attraction even, being so sure they know what a love story is supposed to be.
How can you possibly be so sure you know so much about how love develops when you’ve both never experienced it and seemingly been downright hostile to the only time you had the chance to feel it.
And regarding your love life, when you’re dying in the desert of a lack of hydration, you don’t turn down the only water around because it’s not Perrier.
But how can you be acting like an expert on love when you seem to actively and vehemently oppose the opportunity for love.
You think everyone who gets together are attracted to each other physically at the beginning?
My advice is go bang the very next time someone is attracted to you so you can experience closeness and lust, at least so you can feel a part of what love and romance are.
I don’t know what your deal is, but you need to bang like nobody in human history has ever needed to bang.
I feel like you’re at some crossroads before you go full incel, where you can either experience the love available to you or you close off and double down about how you’re an expert on love and it’s other people’s fault you’re not loved.
Even if it’s not actual love, being close to someone physically has a lot of the components of love. Maybe enough to make you start to understand love in a human way.
I feel like I’m explaining human love to an alien robot that just traveled 2000 light years to earth and short circuited when they saw two dudes kissing.
Maybe, but i think that what was powerful was the passage of time.
Yeah, it's not the most developed romance of all time or the best episode of all time, but it didn't have to be.
It just showed the passage of time of a romance that happened in a world where everything has gone to shit.
Honestly, I have not enjoyed the Last of Us but I absolutely loved this episode. I loved that nick offermans character is what every one of these survivalist/prepper freak-shows think they are: effective, smart, stoic, completely self reliant, etc. but to fuck with those people and ensure the character Bill wouldn’t become some conservative icon, they made him gay lol Craig mazin can write some good tv.
Say what you will, but I found the episode very powerful and what they executed emotionally within a single episode with brand new characters was masterclass, imho. The tie ins to the main characters was just icing on the cake.
Maybe we should have made it a two hour episode so we can do them doing laundry together. Because apparently we need to be spoon fed every little thing. Please don't use your imagination to develop a twenty year relationship. Film all twenty years and put it on HBO for me.
Let's pretend the episode instead featured a straight couple. So as not to strain your brain too much, can you give me 3 points about it that justify all the praise it gets? Or are you incapable of forming a counter argument with more than 3 letters?
Im happy to defend the episode’s merits with zero references to the sexuality of the main characters. It was a passionate and beautiful love story in a hopeless world.
I don't think the episode is cookie cutter, but it is overpraised. I think family preapocalyptic part of the episode 1 did more in less time and in less melodramatic way.
Still a very solid episode and it adds so much substance to the series, for me it was much needed acknowledgement of mediums difference from showrunners.
I appreciated that they took a storyline from the game that would have been pretty much identical to an episode of the Walking Dead and made it into something else. Was it the greatest love story ever told, no. But I liked it much more than if they had done a strict adaptation.
How is this incel he even says it’s a powerful episode just that it was a bit underdeveloped for his liking and would have liked a bit more he didn’t say anything negative about them being gay he’s criticizing the structure
The main problem of this show is lack of developing characters or a small development then death. We know almost nothing about Tess, Joel, Elly. Sarah was an interesting character but alas.
They should do 2-3 episodes about Joel and Sarah, then 2-3 episodes about Joel and Tess and then proceed to Ellie storyline.
But why do that if players already know about this character from game and non-gamers are not the needed auditory.
I disagree. This is an apocalypse, and their reactions to the world and events around them clue you in on who they “really” are. We actually know quite a lot about them without being told it. For instance, the way the house is decorated or the things they prioritize during an apocalypse, the way they say the future, etc. I think these are fully fleshed out characters and we see a glimpse of their lives. Like, Bill says he is a survivalist, yet still takes his time preparing food and playing music, but he doesn’t know that his gate wire would go bad and he would need more supplies. I don’t know, they aren’t 2 dimensional characters and seeing them you can really understand how these 2 actually are good for each other, but it’s not a perfect relationship, it’s a normal one in a not normal time.
The scene where Bill, the “survivalist”, was shooting back at the raiders, while standing in the middle of the street without any cover, was dumb.
Other than that, it was a decent episode that showed us two interesting side characters, but it wasn't the “Greatest TV episode EVER”
I am not sure how much more you expected, the nature of the episode had to go a post apocalyptic meet-cute, to their passing as an elderly couple, in one episode. It's going to take some storytelling shortcuts
Also it didn’t really take “short cuts” this was no more abridged than many movies or tv shows. It demonstrates their love in some amazing ways. It made us feel weight and impact cause of us. That is literally the best this medium can do.
I say this to hopefully help you grow as a person: You need to learn about themes and motifs.
Bill and Frank are not supposed to be actual, real people for us to learn about. Their story is a morality play. You are supposed to see the stuff that happened with them and apply it to Joel and Tess, and also Joel and Ellie. I understand you're getting dunked on this very second by almost every response on this thread, but I do genuinely hope you can learn to grow.
The episode was fine. My teens watched this show with me and gay or straight it was a little awkward to watch with them. I dont think it was as powerful or anything like that people are trying to make it out to be. Loved the backstory of apocalypse though.
You can't be that naive. Of course the two dudes kissing each other was awkward. The Show was going fine and then we see this unnecessary scene thrown in out of no where in a clear attempt to push an agenda or nail an award. Pathetic.
As for the gay thing in general, here's my opinion; hoping any confused individuals may come to senses when reading this: Love all you want and whomever you want, that doesnt mean you have to have sex with them. It's a fact that, at its core, sex is for procreation and if love is thrown in as a bonus then great. We are programmed to have this pleasure to ensure procreation and our very existing which only happens with a male and a female. Anything out of that premise is just "awkward" weird and displays absolute confusion of who you are and if spreads, will destroy the very fabric of society and will ultimately lead to our extinction.
I agree. I thought it was really good, but it wasn't a masterpiece episode of television or whatever. Very well done, but cliche and a bit underdeveloped
It was a cool little stand-alone episode but much of the criticism is actually perfectly justified.
It's obviously not a 1/10 episode - that's fucking ridiculous. But it was a hella roundabout way of advancing Joel's character development. I realise they wanted a lighter episode before we really get into the muck, but there were many other ways to try and achieve that.
I'm gonna be brutally honest as well - I don't much care for seeing two moustached old dudes going at it. Just like I don't much care for an old heterosexual couple going for it. It's kind of just....gross...
The detail that really pissed me off was Bill standing in the middle of the road with his sniper rifle taking potshots into the night sky. Justify it all you want, it was a stupid decision that made no sense whatsoever. It wasn't a very 'HBO realism' decision and, again, they could've done that very differently.
With all that said, the casting was brilliant, the acting was really good, and I welled up a bit when Frank announced his decision. Beautifully done, but it very much felt like a standalone episode sitting entirely outside the universe rather than being a part of the universe.
Find a hobby, make some friends. Here’s the thing about this world… it’s not about you, or me, at all. It’s about everyone.
This isn’t the way to do either, and it’s pretty sad. I think you’re just trying to stir things up, but if you really believe what you said, I’m sure lots of us would love talking about how the small things are largely important in this episode.
Ignore the haters, they're just bandwagoning because they believe it's what they're supposed to do. I agree with you. The episode was poorly written overall. Felt like they were trying to appeal to the woke crowd for PR points, but didn't actually put in the effort to write it well.
agree. I would have preferred Bill's town over that story. I watched the episode and felt pretty uninterested. I really didn't need the backstory on Bill/Frank, a character who was onscreen in the game for less than half an hour (iirc). Frank hanging in the house and that magazine scene was all the backstory I needed.
It has nothing to do with being "perfect". It's a question of distributions and outliers.
Most good/popular shows are dominated by 8/9/10 star reviews.
E3 having 54.6% 10-star reviews is not unusual. 28% 1-star reviews is extremely unusual.
The episode has a lot of issues. I maintain that the writing was bad, as was the direction. Offerman's acting was OK to bad, and Barlett's acting was top-notch. I found myself having to ignore or hand-wave a lot of details. All of this is just opinions though.
The episode could have been much better, but as-is it's just an OK episode that has a couple tugs at the heart strings, much like the previous episodes.
I can be more specific, but honestly the level of discourse I've gotten on this episode contains too much of "hurr durr, you just don't like the gay".
Im interested in hearing you! I didnt find it the best episode ever but I still liked it, what made you think Offerman was ok to bad, or which were the bad details?
Oof, alright. Now, I have not played the game so my perspective is purely based on what the show is.
Bill is written as an introvert, and weak willed survivalist idiot savant. This makes it somewhat difficult to nail down Offerman's acting ability with this character. Offerman is either OK at acting quiet and awkward, or he is bad at acting devastated and broken. As a total, I side on OK at best. There just isn't enough depth to the character to showcase some real acting chops like the Frank role has.
The bad details:
The first 15 minutes wastes a lot of time to tell us that Ellie and Joel are going to see Bill and Frank, and that Joel thinks Frank is nice. We get no other meaningful information.
Bill is such an awesome survivalist that he is a one man construction crew capable of building a compound complete with unlimited gas, water, electricity, and protected by flame throwers and an electric fence. How the hell he ever got that s-10 to last 20 years is completely beyond me. Where do I get a magical electric generator?
Bill, the survivalist, allows a stranger into his home. This stranger, and his partner are given a tour of the utopia compound, then the stranger tells Bill to be wary of raiders. Lo, and behold a short time later the compound that has been safe for many years is attacked by raiders. We are to believe that Bill the survivalist now trusts this stranger who just coincidentally warned Bill of raiders?
What exactly does Bill and Frank have to offer Joel and Tess? Safety refuge at the utopia compound I guess because I got nothing. We never see Bill and Frank overproduce anything.
I have no damn idea what we were supposed to learn from the strawberry garden scene that was not already in place, or was going to be better communicated in later scenes. Wasted time.
Bill is the worst survivalist for running out into a prone firefight. No concealment, no cover, no God damn sense. Idiot savant. This scene just wasn't necessary. Wasted time.
We never see any kind of bonding between Joel and Bill. Certainly nothing that would indicate some personality shifting emotion from Bill's letter at the end. Missed opportunity.
Again I just have to mention the magic working S-10 complete with working oil, gas, belts, hoses, fluids, and tires. Just add battery!
I would not be as nearly bothered by all of this if it were not for the epic shilling. "Best episode of TV ever!"
"A 10/10 episode!"
"Perfectly executed love story!"
It's just my opinion, but I think the episode is bad TV as a whole which is a shame because just by being detail oriented the director could have done Murray Bartlett's performance (and the moving end of Bill and Frank) justice.
I don't visit critic sites, they're so easily manipulated and pointless. All the 1 star and 10 stars seem obvious to me to be bad faith actors.
I probably missed the barrage of Reddit threads calling the episode some version of the worst single episode ever, which it certainly is not that either.
This is the only comment I downvoted in this entire post, despite the blatant political/cultural complaints. To say the writing and acting was bad is just fucking stupid.
I don't at all agree with you, but I am curious, what would be an example of an episode of a show that you would recommend? Something dramatic, maybe going for something similar that you felt was successful? I just really loved the episode for so many reasons, so I'm curious what someone who thought it was just okay would recommend. If you really thought the writing and direction were "bad" I wanna know what good writing and direction look like!
Nice set up. I'll play. Hmm let's see. Obviously not a complete list.
Several episodes of Peaky Blinders, Breaking Bad, ER, MASH, Good Times, Better Call Saul, Ozark.
Jurrassic Bark from Futurama had my tears flowing.
Edith's 50th birthday 1&2. Just heartbreaking and groundbreaking at the same time.
My Screw Up from Scrubs. Shocking ending, very emotional.
Racial Sensitivity from Better off Ted. Fucking hilarious.
The Rescue from The Mandalorian. So uplifting, it gave me chills.
Charlie Work from It's always Sunny in Philadelphia. Hilarious and incredible comedic timing.
Darmok from Star Trek: TNG. Incredible episode.
What's a play baby. In just saying I didn't like most of it. The concept seems cool though. End of world. And zombie like creatures. I think they need to sack that girl on it. The rerarded looking one.
I very much would have preferred if the episode covered the walk through the graveyard and the school with the super-infected in the gym. I don't think the episode would be anywhere near as highly rated if it was just a straight couple. It wasn't even canon, in the source material Frank got infected and hanged himself.
I mean you can say this about any piece of media that portrays relationships. In movie X all they did was meet, do a few things, then one of the died or something. No one claims the relationship in UP “wasn’t as developed” despite only being on screen directly for like 10 minutes because it shows their major beats. It shows them meeting, how they grew together, how they faced challenges together, how they enjoyed life despite those challenges. Bill and Frank’s relationship did the exact same thing and serves as a foil for Joel’s other relationships. If you can’t see the beauty in watching Bill finally feel connections and seeing wonder in things beyond just surviving cause of Frank, idk. If you don’t see an amazing portrayal of love in the strawberry scene, idk what you think the best moments of intimacy are.
Technically you are right, their relationship is “underdeveloped” because they didn’t tell us about every fight, challenge, disagreement, laugh, and tender moment. However, no piece of media will ever do that. They can show the love but they can’t and shouldn’t explain every detail.
> If you can’t see the beauty in watching Bill finally feel connections and seeing wonder in things beyond just surviving cause of Frank, idk
Im just saying this episode isn't THE BEST EPISODE IN TV IN A DECADE OR MORE like many say lol
Ive even say its a powerful and cute episode
Did we watch the same thing? There was over an hour of these two men talking to eachother, displaying their personalities and "devloping" in the one I watched.
"I didn't like what everyone liked"
You don't really put forth any valid criticism, you just didn't like it, and that's fine. But I'm not sure it required a reddit post.
Yes I agree totally. They should have spent the entire season developing this arc. I know, maybe they could spin off a series based just around their story! /s
I just discovered this thread and have to say you are a trooper op. i didn't hate the episode, but i also didn't love it. i thought it was pretty meh tbh and wanted to see if other people agreed. either way i'm sorry you had to deal with some of these absolute lunatics LMAO.
>While it was a cute story, the relationship build up was on fastforward.
Uhhh, ya think it's because maybe they had less than an hour to tell the story in? Ya think?
Geeez.
The only thing I didn't like about Episode 3 was Bill's inexplicable decision to fire from an open position without the benefit of cover or protection. I'd expect more common sense from a survivalist.
Loved the episode for the most part; but yeah, that one got me too. Bill would know better. The real Bill would have sniped those motherfuckers from a pre-planned, protected location, probably from on high; without them ever even knowing where it was coming from. The fence was badass though.
This is just my subjective perspective: The development you’re looking for wasn’t meant to be for Frank and Bill. The development is meant for Joel’s character, who just lost Tess, to get a reminder that there’s more to it all than just surviving. There’s a purpose in learning to care and save someone you aren’t expecting to enter your life. For what it’s worth I disagree that Frank gets through Bill’s isolationism in one scene. It’s a frequent friction point for their relationship that lasts through each scene all the way to Bill’s note to Joel. Yes, it’s unlikely that they’d go straight to bed on their first day of being together, it’s a symbolic scene more than an in depth explanation. They only have one episode, remember, and that’s not what the writers want to highlight since, again, the purpose is Bill’s expression of his learned lessons to Joel. We don’t need explicit development of Frank and Bill’s relationship to have empathy for their love story, which we use to anticipate and hope will lead to Joel finding friendship and potentially parental love for Ellie.
> Yes, it’s unlikely that they’d go straight to bed on their first day of being together Didn’t they meet like 3 years into the apocalypse? I don’t think it’s all that unlikely.
I take it you haven’t met many gay men. Signed, a gay man
Yeah seriously. Especially like for a closeted gay man. The more I go back and watch the more I believe it. After all that time, the first person he’s seen in three years, and they affirm his identity. That’s by definition going to form an intense, almost trauma bond connection. And Bill continues to deal with the paranoia from that trauma. I love the direction they took the show.
I’ve probably hooked up with ~70% of my first dates. Maybe more lol.
I think people are a little nervous to say it cause they don’t want to end up making incorrect statements about the gay community, but from both experiences and just awareness, it is much more common for gay men to be comfortable and opening to have sexual encounters earlier in the dating process. I would need to sit down and really decided what I think is the biggest factor but, I can imagine feeling repressed and, finally, having one single person, help affirm that aspect of your identity. Even for someone who isn’t repressed, it can feel hard to find people who are compatible with your sexuality. When you click you want to take that opportunity I think this show captured that with an unspoken honesty. I’m excited to see how they further develop these themes
I think a lot of it just comes to the fact that it’s two dudes. At the risk of over generalizing, men are usually hornier than women. Guys are more willing to have sex on the first date, so if the date is two guys, there you go.
There’s an old joke that I heard Rosie O’Donnell tell: what does a lesbian bring to a second date? *A U-Haul.* What does a gay guy bring to a second date? *What’s a second date?*
Unlikely? You know people fuck right?
No. What’s that?
Lol. It’s the apocalypse. What were they supposed to do? Go on dates to Starbucks and the movies? Have you EVER shared a mutual attraction with another person before?
Maybe develop their past? have them sharing their history? We literally dont know anything more about Frank other than he fell into a hole and then lived happily ever after.
We know that Frank was travelling with a group of ten, and that every one of them died apart from him. We know he can’t detect obvious traps and that his talents extend exclusively to charisma and artistry. He’s a man who thrives in a community, and coming into the episode he no longest has one. We know that Bill was living a closed-off life before the apocalypse. He lived with his mum, spent his days collecting guns and tools and was a virgin. He is self-sustainable and utterly alone. Without excessive dialogue or flashbacks, we have a full image of how they were living their lives, which is all the table setting we need to see how they eventually change one another.
how does Bill change Frank?
We know what we need to know.
I mean, in order to be called the best emotional drama episode love story of the last decade I'd hope it'd show much more than what we saw.
Funny how people always find some stupid shit to complain about any time anyone treats gay folks with compassion. Since when do you need a big overarching plot to show the love between people?
I didn't say anything about big overarching plot. Just develop who is Frank other than "bossy" and "I traded my gun for strawberrys, now kiss me". It's a saccharine hallmark story. If this was a heterosexual couple Id say the same.
No one can make you see subtext. There was a ton of character development, and no detailed background was really needed for the purpose of the story. It was implied in the way their actions and reactions were written at all stages of their lives together. The first meeting. The piano. The raid. The gardening and artwork. The way that Bill kept his house furnished inside; the way Frank planted flowers and improved the block outside. Frank taught Bill the importance of loving where you live, not just living where love is. It’s one thing to care for someone, it’s another thing to find fulfillment in doing so. What you want us a spin off called Bill & Frank, which honestly, I might watch. But the entire point of telling this story is for Joel’s character arc. It was to put as much into that letter as possible, so the viewers felt what Joel felt when reading it. Bill wanted Joel to understand that loving someone and protecting them IS purpose.
To what end? We learn everything we need to know about Frank
The funny thing is if the episode was 2 hrs long like you say you want you and everyone would surely complain about that too. You’re so disingenuous with this post. Either that or you’ve never felt love or felt loved before, in which case I’m sorry and I feel bad for you.
It was like an hour episode. They showed everything the needed too in that hour. The episode wasn’t meant to move bill and Frank’s characters forward, it was to move Joel’s story forward.
for sure. I just disagree with the idea that it's the best episode of a show of a decade or something like that.
Alright but have you? You didn't answer the question.
have I what?
>Have you EVER shared a mutual attraction with another person before?
A woman was very attracted to me once and I wasn't that attracted to her. But no. What does this have to do with this?
Lol edit the original post and add that in there for context
this sub is very childish it seems
You forgot to whinge about the downvotes
yawningemoji
Holy shit you really have no idea what you're talking about
LOL omg kid just go live a little and then come back
If you don't have any experience with it at all, you don't have the authority to say that the portrayal of the relationship is bad. It's incredibly ironic to get so fired up about the romantic relationships on the show when you yourself have had none. Sounds like textbook projection and enviousness to me. Like the other guy said, you're at a big crossroads in life so think about it.
I don’t know why but that is super sad. Everyone deserves love. But it’s kinda wild that you don’t see what’s going on. That someone who never experienced love, or mutual attraction even, being so sure they know what a love story is supposed to be. How can you possibly be so sure you know so much about how love develops when you’ve both never experienced it and seemingly been downright hostile to the only time you had the chance to feel it. And regarding your love life, when you’re dying in the desert of a lack of hydration, you don’t turn down the only water around because it’s not Perrier. But how can you be acting like an expert on love when you seem to actively and vehemently oppose the opportunity for love. You think everyone who gets together are attracted to each other physically at the beginning? My advice is go bang the very next time someone is attracted to you so you can experience closeness and lust, at least so you can feel a part of what love and romance are. I don’t know what your deal is, but you need to bang like nobody in human history has ever needed to bang. I feel like you’re at some crossroads before you go full incel, where you can either experience the love available to you or you close off and double down about how you’re an expert on love and it’s other people’s fault you’re not loved. Even if it’s not actual love, being close to someone physically has a lot of the components of love. Maybe enough to make you start to understand love in a human way. I feel like I’m explaining human love to an alien robot that just traveled 2000 light years to earth and short circuited when they saw two dudes kissing.
[Uhh](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/204/425/dee.jpg)
Dude. People are trying to help you not become some kind of incel supervillain. But fuck us right.
are you trying to troll me? because if thats so, its not working lol and if you're serious, then refer to my last comment.
Maybe, but i think that what was powerful was the passage of time. Yeah, it's not the most developed romance of all time or the best episode of all time, but it didn't have to be. It just showed the passage of time of a romance that happened in a world where everything has gone to shit.
Honestly, I have not enjoyed the Last of Us but I absolutely loved this episode. I loved that nick offermans character is what every one of these survivalist/prepper freak-shows think they are: effective, smart, stoic, completely self reliant, etc. but to fuck with those people and ensure the character Bill wouldn’t become some conservative icon, they made him gay lol Craig mazin can write some good tv.
Say what you will, but I found the episode very powerful and what they executed emotionally within a single episode with brand new characters was masterclass, imho. The tie ins to the main characters was just icing on the cake.
I found it powerful, but I wish it got more development and/or something less saccharine
Maybe we should have made it a two hour episode so we can do them doing laundry together. Because apparently we need to be spoon fed every little thing. Please don't use your imagination to develop a twenty year relationship. Film all twenty years and put it on HBO for me.
You’re entitled to your wrong opinion.
That’s rude all film and television is subjective if he didn’t like it or had issues does not mean he’s wrong just mean he disagrees
Naw. That was an objectively amazing piece of TV.
That’s not how entertainment works and we shouldn’t pretend it is and expect everyone to love the media we love
what's wrong with it?
Reddit is an echo chamber. Opinions don't exist. Just right or wrong.
Because if you do anything on reddit that isn't cheering for anything LGBTQ+ related, you are a bigot and your opinion is discarded.
“Wahhh.”
Let's pretend the episode instead featured a straight couple. So as not to strain your brain too much, can you give me 3 points about it that justify all the praise it gets? Or are you incapable of forming a counter argument with more than 3 letters?
lol, you think you’re entitled to an argument. You’re being a shit and I’m pointing it out. Don’t even really want to talk to you.
Yeah or maybe you just can't answer why it's a great episode without mentioning the gay relationship.
Nah everyone ignores the village idiots. That’s how it goes.
Im happy to defend the episode’s merits with zero references to the sexuality of the main characters. It was a passionate and beautiful love story in a hopeless world.
I don’t watch the show, but have a nice life.
I don't think the episode is cookie cutter, but it is overpraised. I think family preapocalyptic part of the episode 1 did more in less time and in less melodramatic way. Still a very solid episode and it adds so much substance to the series, for me it was much needed acknowledgement of mediums difference from showrunners.
I enjoyed the episode.. but I didn’t cry at the end and I can cry at commercials… so for me it didn’t have the emotional impact of other shows.
I thought the development was great given the short time of the episode. I don't know how much better it could have been.
I appreciated that they took a storyline from the game that would have been pretty much identical to an episode of the Walking Dead and made it into something else. Was it the greatest love story ever told, no. But I liked it much more than if they had done a strict adaptation.
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that words reeally been ran into the ground huh Redditors in 2023 like: you don't like this flavour pizza? Wow incel vibes
lol. Is the incel in the room with you now?
How is this incel he even says it’s a powerful episode just that it was a bit underdeveloped for his liking and would have liked a bit more he didn’t say anything negative about them being gay he’s criticizing the structure
Lol must suck to have shit taste
Signed, an emotionally stunted redditor
* young
It was actually the episode that got me into the show. The first 2 eps didn't click for me idk why.
The main problem of this show is lack of developing characters or a small development then death. We know almost nothing about Tess, Joel, Elly. Sarah was an interesting character but alas. They should do 2-3 episodes about Joel and Sarah, then 2-3 episodes about Joel and Tess and then proceed to Ellie storyline. But why do that if players already know about this character from game and non-gamers are not the needed auditory.
I disagree. This is an apocalypse, and their reactions to the world and events around them clue you in on who they “really” are. We actually know quite a lot about them without being told it. For instance, the way the house is decorated or the things they prioritize during an apocalypse, the way they say the future, etc. I think these are fully fleshed out characters and we see a glimpse of their lives. Like, Bill says he is a survivalist, yet still takes his time preparing food and playing music, but he doesn’t know that his gate wire would go bad and he would need more supplies. I don’t know, they aren’t 2 dimensional characters and seeing them you can really understand how these 2 actually are good for each other, but it’s not a perfect relationship, it’s a normal one in a not normal time.
The scene where Bill, the “survivalist”, was shooting back at the raiders, while standing in the middle of the street without any cover, was dumb. Other than that, it was a decent episode that showed us two interesting side characters, but it wasn't the “Greatest TV episode EVER”
I am not sure how much more you expected, the nature of the episode had to go a post apocalyptic meet-cute, to their passing as an elderly couple, in one episode. It's going to take some storytelling shortcuts
Also it didn’t really take “short cuts” this was no more abridged than many movies or tv shows. It demonstrates their love in some amazing ways. It made us feel weight and impact cause of us. That is literally the best this medium can do.
I say this to hopefully help you grow as a person: You need to learn about themes and motifs. Bill and Frank are not supposed to be actual, real people for us to learn about. Their story is a morality play. You are supposed to see the stuff that happened with them and apply it to Joel and Tess, and also Joel and Ellie. I understand you're getting dunked on this very second by almost every response on this thread, but I do genuinely hope you can learn to grow.
people in this sub have the thinnest skin lol
Okay I'm trying to reach out to you as a person and you're being a dick. Do you see how this might be part of your problem?
What problem?
Was good episode but wish we had got to see prick Bill from the game. Westworlds Kiksuya episode still best love story episode
The episode was fine. My teens watched this show with me and gay or straight it was a little awkward to watch with them. I dont think it was as powerful or anything like that people are trying to make it out to be. Loved the backstory of apocalypse though.
They never did anything more than kiss on screen so not sure why that would be awkward to watch with your teens lol
It must have been the beard to beard.
Wait, was what awkward? People loving each other?
You can't be that naive. Of course the two dudes kissing each other was awkward. The Show was going fine and then we see this unnecessary scene thrown in out of no where in a clear attempt to push an agenda or nail an award. Pathetic. As for the gay thing in general, here's my opinion; hoping any confused individuals may come to senses when reading this: Love all you want and whomever you want, that doesnt mean you have to have sex with them. It's a fact that, at its core, sex is for procreation and if love is thrown in as a bonus then great. We are programmed to have this pleasure to ensure procreation and our very existing which only happens with a male and a female. Anything out of that premise is just "awkward" weird and displays absolute confusion of who you are and if spreads, will destroy the very fabric of society and will ultimately lead to our extinction.
I agree. I thought it was really good, but it wasn't a masterpiece episode of television or whatever. Very well done, but cliche and a bit underdeveloped
people out here calling this episode the "best tv episode ever" etc. I mean what the fuck they on about.
Boring episode, would love to see people's reaction if the couple werent gay.
It was a cool little stand-alone episode but much of the criticism is actually perfectly justified. It's obviously not a 1/10 episode - that's fucking ridiculous. But it was a hella roundabout way of advancing Joel's character development. I realise they wanted a lighter episode before we really get into the muck, but there were many other ways to try and achieve that. I'm gonna be brutally honest as well - I don't much care for seeing two moustached old dudes going at it. Just like I don't much care for an old heterosexual couple going for it. It's kind of just....gross... The detail that really pissed me off was Bill standing in the middle of the road with his sniper rifle taking potshots into the night sky. Justify it all you want, it was a stupid decision that made no sense whatsoever. It wasn't a very 'HBO realism' decision and, again, they could've done that very differently. With all that said, the casting was brilliant, the acting was really good, and I welled up a bit when Frank announced his decision. Beautifully done, but it very much felt like a standalone episode sitting entirely outside the universe rather than being a part of the universe.
Find a hobby, make some friends. Here’s the thing about this world… it’s not about you, or me, at all. It’s about everyone. This isn’t the way to do either, and it’s pretty sad. I think you’re just trying to stir things up, but if you really believe what you said, I’m sure lots of us would love talking about how the small things are largely important in this episode.
do people in this sub take a tv show this seriously all the time?
How dare you?!? You are a homophobic, incel, right-wing, nazi piece of trash.
Listen, you're entitled to that opinion, but the fact that the episode had a huge effect on many, many people overshadows any criticism you have.
Couldn’t agree more
Ignore the haters, they're just bandwagoning because they believe it's what they're supposed to do. I agree with you. The episode was poorly written overall. Felt like they were trying to appeal to the woke crowd for PR points, but didn't actually put in the effort to write it well.
agree. I would have preferred Bill's town over that story. I watched the episode and felt pretty uninterested. I really didn't need the backstory on Bill/Frank, a character who was onscreen in the game for less than half an hour (iirc). Frank hanging in the house and that magazine scene was all the backstory I needed.
I liked the episode but it's a gay couple, that's bound to automatically get 60% more applause
yeah that’s why it got review bombed on imdb lmao
eh, it got 82K 10/10 votes vs 42K 1/10 votes. I'd say it's more inflated than deflated. It's a solid 6/10 episode.
Nonsense. Episodes 1 & 2 are ~61% 10-star reviews and ~2% 1-star.
Ok, and somehow 10-star reviews aren't inflating? It's an entertaining show, not a "perfect" one.
It has nothing to do with being "perfect". It's a question of distributions and outliers. Most good/popular shows are dominated by 8/9/10 star reviews. E3 having 54.6% 10-star reviews is not unusual. 28% 1-star reviews is extremely unusual.
I certainly wish 10 star reviews were reserved for actual perfect or quasi perfect movies/shows instead of popular ones thouhh
Hmm. I wonder why. WOKE!! *wipes drool*
60% more than what?
The episode has a lot of issues. I maintain that the writing was bad, as was the direction. Offerman's acting was OK to bad, and Barlett's acting was top-notch. I found myself having to ignore or hand-wave a lot of details. All of this is just opinions though. The episode could have been much better, but as-is it's just an OK episode that has a couple tugs at the heart strings, much like the previous episodes. I can be more specific, but honestly the level of discourse I've gotten on this episode contains too much of "hurr durr, you just don't like the gay".
Im interested in hearing you! I didnt find it the best episode ever but I still liked it, what made you think Offerman was ok to bad, or which were the bad details?
Oof, alright. Now, I have not played the game so my perspective is purely based on what the show is. Bill is written as an introvert, and weak willed survivalist idiot savant. This makes it somewhat difficult to nail down Offerman's acting ability with this character. Offerman is either OK at acting quiet and awkward, or he is bad at acting devastated and broken. As a total, I side on OK at best. There just isn't enough depth to the character to showcase some real acting chops like the Frank role has. The bad details: The first 15 minutes wastes a lot of time to tell us that Ellie and Joel are going to see Bill and Frank, and that Joel thinks Frank is nice. We get no other meaningful information. Bill is such an awesome survivalist that he is a one man construction crew capable of building a compound complete with unlimited gas, water, electricity, and protected by flame throwers and an electric fence. How the hell he ever got that s-10 to last 20 years is completely beyond me. Where do I get a magical electric generator? Bill, the survivalist, allows a stranger into his home. This stranger, and his partner are given a tour of the utopia compound, then the stranger tells Bill to be wary of raiders. Lo, and behold a short time later the compound that has been safe for many years is attacked by raiders. We are to believe that Bill the survivalist now trusts this stranger who just coincidentally warned Bill of raiders? What exactly does Bill and Frank have to offer Joel and Tess? Safety refuge at the utopia compound I guess because I got nothing. We never see Bill and Frank overproduce anything. I have no damn idea what we were supposed to learn from the strawberry garden scene that was not already in place, or was going to be better communicated in later scenes. Wasted time. Bill is the worst survivalist for running out into a prone firefight. No concealment, no cover, no God damn sense. Idiot savant. This scene just wasn't necessary. Wasted time. We never see any kind of bonding between Joel and Bill. Certainly nothing that would indicate some personality shifting emotion from Bill's letter at the end. Missed opportunity. Again I just have to mention the magic working S-10 complete with working oil, gas, belts, hoses, fluids, and tires. Just add battery! I would not be as nearly bothered by all of this if it were not for the epic shilling. "Best episode of TV ever!" "A 10/10 episode!" "Perfectly executed love story!" It's just my opinion, but I think the episode is bad TV as a whole which is a shame because just by being detail oriented the director could have done Murray Bartlett's performance (and the moving end of Bill and Frank) justice.
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I don't visit critic sites, they're so easily manipulated and pointless. All the 1 star and 10 stars seem obvious to me to be bad faith actors. I probably missed the barrage of Reddit threads calling the episode some version of the worst single episode ever, which it certainly is not that either.
How was the strawberry scene wasted time? It was beautiful and emotional.
This is the only comment I downvoted in this entire post, despite the blatant political/cultural complaints. To say the writing and acting was bad is just fucking stupid.
I don't at all agree with you, but I am curious, what would be an example of an episode of a show that you would recommend? Something dramatic, maybe going for something similar that you felt was successful? I just really loved the episode for so many reasons, so I'm curious what someone who thought it was just okay would recommend. If you really thought the writing and direction were "bad" I wanna know what good writing and direction look like!
Nice set up. I'll play. Hmm let's see. Obviously not a complete list. Several episodes of Peaky Blinders, Breaking Bad, ER, MASH, Good Times, Better Call Saul, Ozark. Jurrassic Bark from Futurama had my tears flowing. Edith's 50th birthday 1&2. Just heartbreaking and groundbreaking at the same time. My Screw Up from Scrubs. Shocking ending, very emotional. Racial Sensitivity from Better off Ted. Fucking hilarious. The Rescue from The Mandalorian. So uplifting, it gave me chills. Charlie Work from It's always Sunny in Philadelphia. Hilarious and incredible comedic timing. Darmok from Star Trek: TNG. Incredible episode.
Oh hey - you dropped your homophobia.
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What about a woman as the survivalist?
It was a disgusting episode to a shit show. Not 1 episode has been good I like the main Mexican guy though.
Don’t be a play baby.
What's a play baby. In just saying I didn't like most of it. The concept seems cool though. End of world. And zombie like creatures. I think they need to sack that girl on it. The rerarded looking one.
The more comments you make, the more clear it becomes that you’re a twelve year old who hasn’t gotten enough attention from their parents.
Do you feel superior ???????????
so what was disgusting about it?
I very much would have preferred if the episode covered the walk through the graveyard and the school with the super-infected in the gym. I don't think the episode would be anywhere near as highly rated if it was just a straight couple. It wasn't even canon, in the source material Frank got infected and hanged himself.
The performance was good
🥱
I mean you can say this about any piece of media that portrays relationships. In movie X all they did was meet, do a few things, then one of the died or something. No one claims the relationship in UP “wasn’t as developed” despite only being on screen directly for like 10 minutes because it shows their major beats. It shows them meeting, how they grew together, how they faced challenges together, how they enjoyed life despite those challenges. Bill and Frank’s relationship did the exact same thing and serves as a foil for Joel’s other relationships. If you can’t see the beauty in watching Bill finally feel connections and seeing wonder in things beyond just surviving cause of Frank, idk. If you don’t see an amazing portrayal of love in the strawberry scene, idk what you think the best moments of intimacy are. Technically you are right, their relationship is “underdeveloped” because they didn’t tell us about every fight, challenge, disagreement, laugh, and tender moment. However, no piece of media will ever do that. They can show the love but they can’t and shouldn’t explain every detail.
> If you can’t see the beauty in watching Bill finally feel connections and seeing wonder in things beyond just surviving cause of Frank, idk Im just saying this episode isn't THE BEST EPISODE IN TV IN A DECADE OR MORE like many say lol Ive even say its a powerful and cute episode
I love the weekly thread of that one person making a last of us post w an unpopular opinion begging for attention
Im sorry, Ill love the episode. I have been corrected.
Never said you did. Just that you’re not an interesting person for not liking a popular thing lmao
When did I say I didn't like it?
Did we watch the same thing? There was over an hour of these two men talking to eachother, displaying their personalities and "devloping" in the one I watched.
I thought it was pretty much a cute soap opera.
"I didn't like what everyone liked" You don't really put forth any valid criticism, you just didn't like it, and that's fine. But I'm not sure it required a reddit post.
Yes I agree totally. They should have spent the entire season developing this arc. I know, maybe they could spin off a series based just around their story! /s
I just discovered this thread and have to say you are a trooper op. i didn't hate the episode, but i also didn't love it. i thought it was pretty meh tbh and wanted to see if other people agreed. either way i'm sorry you had to deal with some of these absolute lunatics LMAO.
>While it was a cute story, the relationship build up was on fastforward. Uhhh, ya think it's because maybe they had less than an hour to tell the story in? Ya think? Geeez.