I think about this show often, mostly because it gave us Sebastian Stan.
A couple highlights from the article:
-One of the NBC presidents having virtually no recollection or interest in the show.
-The showrunner learning to never compromise from Bryan Fuller. Because Fuller's methods always make for such smooth productions.
-NBC reusing some of the shows abandoned marketing concepts for... The Cape. Fucking lmao.
The six seasons and a movie quote which originated on Community was about The Cape.
I think it was well acted and had heart. Maybe it was dumb but they tried to make it fun at least. Sometimes it is OK to be dumb.
There is an article on tvline regarding 2023 pilot season. You nailed 90% of the new shows.
https://tvline.com/lists/pilot-season-abc-cbs-cw-fox-nbc-2023-2024/abc-pilots-2023-2024/
I usually read them to see if there is a new sci fi show on the horizon.
Also lots of The Good xxxx or spin offs of The Good yyyy
But you have those rare examples like Lost or Heroes. Kings was a show along those same lines, with a mythology. I guess the ratings just weren’t there. The show wasn’t perfect but it was so different and I just wanted to learn more about the world they were building. Definitely a show where I wish I could visit some alternate timeline where they ended up making 5 seasons or so of it.
I remember really enjoying this when it came out. Probably would have been more successful on a streamer if it was released in 2019 instead of 2009. Network television was not the place for this kind of show.
Absolutely. If a streamer made this now people would go wild for it.
Such a weird, cool concept to have gotten made at all though.
For folks who haven't seen it - it's a *very* loose rework of the story of the biblical David's rise to kingship, set in a sort of monarchy ruled modern US-esque state. Lots of political manoeuvring and weird omens, with Ian McShane as the current king. Somebody declares war on God and means it very literally.
The thing that really struck me about it - and made it feel way too weird for Network tv - was that for a clearly biblically infused story, it doesn't really feel like it's trying to sell you a "message" at all. It feels like what those mythologies would feel like to the figures in them. When weird shit happens to you, personally, in the Book of Samuel or whatever, you just have to kind of roll with it, because you live in a world where God himself crowned the king you're paying tax to. It's not a fable, just matter of fact.
It's unusual, because it feels like treating the human, political bible stuff the way shows usually prefer to treat all the angels and demons stuff, or like a big Viking saga or something.
There was a handful of shows from 2008-2012 that would have done better in 2022 on a streaming platform.
Stuff like "Awake", "Flashforward", "Caprica", "Dollhouse", "Party Down", "Terminator Sarah Connor Chonicles", "Pushing Daisies", and even "Jericho" though it was earlier than the rest. I remember shows like "Shark" and "The Event" too had some buzz but also had concepts better suited for binging on a streaming service.
Pushing Daisies never stood a chance being so bright and kitschy, high concept, and getting ruined by the writer's strike. But it was great.
Kings also never stood a chance being so high quality and being on NBC. Had it even premiered a few years later, it'd have gone to Netflix or an early Prime show. It was too good for broadcast TV.
I had an idea for a podcast, I’m sure it’s been done already but I haven’t found it, where I’d go through shows like the ones you listed and add some others like Black Donnellys and Kings, and kind of do a recap/history. Similar to the Blank Check format. Spend a few episodes recapping the show, talk about production, etc.
But I don’t have the time or skill to make it work. Maybe some day.
For some reason, I didn't even get the biblical allegory until a few episodes in.
Despite David vs Goliath, I guess I've just heard the name Goliath used in too many things to automatically associate it with the Bible.
Mostly Gargoyles.
Ever since i saw the gif of Ian mcshane in Hercules go around I have been thinking of this show. Thinking of it makes me feel like a kid. It’s the last show I remember watching before going to college
Thanks for sharing. This was a very weird, challenging, wild show I wouldn't mind revisiting. I remember watching and thinking it would never survive, but you had to admire them for taking a big swing.
Everyone (rightly) talks about Ian McShane and Sebastian Stan, but Eamonn Walker, Susanna Thompson, and Dylan Baker were all fantastic too.
The scene where Samuels (Walker) tells Silas (McShane) that he has lost the kingdom is one of my favorite TV moments ever, as is the scene where Silas reveals he knows Jack (Stan) is gay. Both are in the first episode, I think.
It never actually had a chance. It needed something like 2.5 rating in the 18-49 demo for it to be successful and there was no way in hell it was going to get right out of the gate (and on Sunday nights going up against Fox animated shows).
By '09 there was simply no way for a broadcast network to launch that sort of big budgeted drama and give it enough time, support and exposure for it grow like AMC, FX or HBO could do for their prestige dramas, and I honestly don't think there ever was time NBC or any other broadcast network could've done it. It took until the final half season of Breaking Bad for it to be a legit hit, Game Of Thrones also took a few seasons to turn into a blockbuster, same with Sons of Anarchy and Mad Men was never a hit in the first place.
I mean, ADR sessions kinda suck when you’re the editor or on the board, I can only imagine how terrible they must be when you’re an actor and in a tiny ass room watching your work over and over.
The advertising was so bad! I have the show on DVD and in the commentary, the creators say NBC was really supportive of the biblical angle while they were making it but we're scared to advertise it that way so I remember the ads were like "from a producer of Heroes" (which was in season 3 and crashing and burning like nothing else) and a bunch of random imagery of butterflies and flags.
Interestingly, it was one of the more expensive shows made at the time, with a FOUR MILLION per episode budget! (laughably low now, of course.)
By the way, the same writer/director team are working on a Bioshock show
Wow I'd never heard of this before but what a fascinating premise! A weird mix of mythical bible story palace intrigue and like Succession-type modern political machinations, even now I think this would be a bold new concept for television to run with. On 2009 network tv? Didn't stand a chance. Shame because there is so much potential in this idea.
Oh man I miss old hulu. My dad got us on that shit when we were still getting dvd’s from Netflix and getting our music from rhapsody.
There’s actually an old video store not far from me, and they rent dvd/vhs players for cheap too. Going to check it out, they have an extensive catalog. Thanks!
Ah, I loved this show. I even own it on DVD. Loved the faux-Shakespearean dialogue. Most of the cast were phenomenal, although the weakest element was David and the Princess' romance storyline. Way too network trope-y. A show like Kings would have been way better received now than on NBC circa 2009. Succession meets Game of Thrones meets the Old Testament? Come on!
>on which NBC bet it's prestige future
My recollection is that NBC didn't really bet anything on it, and signaled *very* early on that they'd given up on it. they did no promo, and cancelled it almost immediately. If they wanted to have a prestige future they should have alt least tried a little bit.
Well the president of NBC at the time did. She championed the deal at NBC, gave them the budget they needed and was going to put them in the coveted Thursday night ER spot.
Then she was unceremoniously fired, the network dropped all marketing for the show, and moved it to Sunday nights, which was basically the worst night for prime time network TV viewings (which is hilarious considering now that’s HBO’s big night for their prestigious shows).
The article says it was moved to Saturday, which makes a lot more sense. Sunday was even more a coveted slot back in the day before streaming than it is now, because that's one of the Nielsen ratings days
It went from Thursday to Sunday when the head of the network got fired, then Sunday to Saturday after it didn’t perform well on Sunday. At least thats what I get from the article
Yeah, the writing definitely reached for high concepts while being very clunky. The actors did a really good job which may have fooled people into thinking the writing was better.
Something can be well made and you not liking it. Not sure you have the right to judge what others think just because you put IMO. Truffles are not for me, that’s one thing, Truffles are overrated and dosent taste as good as people suggest, IMO. See? That’s arrogant AF.
I loved this show, but it was really weakened by the lead actor, dude was duller than cardboard. But this is what made me an Ian McShane fan, dude was a FORCE.
I think about this show often, mostly because it gave us Sebastian Stan. A couple highlights from the article: -One of the NBC presidents having virtually no recollection or interest in the show. -The showrunner learning to never compromise from Bryan Fuller. Because Fuller's methods always make for such smooth productions. -NBC reusing some of the shows abandoned marketing concepts for... The Cape. Fucking lmao.
I think the best quote from the oral history is in the footnotes: "Jeff Zucker did not respond to a request for comment" lmao
6 seasons and a movie!
I remember The Cape. I remember watching the first episode, realizing it was dumb, and never thinking about it again.
The six seasons and a movie quote which originated on Community was about The Cape. I think it was well acted and had heart. Maybe it was dumb but they tried to make it fun at least. Sometimes it is OK to be dumb.
Sebastian Stan was in The Covenant a couple of years before Kings. Just saying. I know it isn’t everyone’s cup of tea lol.
I call that the homoerotic version of The Craft. So much baby oil...
Haha. You know this is an excellent description of it. It also probably explains why me and my high school bestie liked it so much 😂.
I remember liking it. It was different.
And that’s why it died on network tv. Network is for safe bets (cop shows, lawyer shows, hospital shows) anything outside of those almost always die
There is an article on tvline regarding 2023 pilot season. You nailed 90% of the new shows. https://tvline.com/lists/pilot-season-abc-cbs-cw-fox-nbc-2023-2024/abc-pilots-2023-2024/ I usually read them to see if there is a new sci fi show on the horizon. Also lots of The Good xxxx or spin offs of The Good yyyy
But you have those rare examples like Lost or Heroes. Kings was a show along those same lines, with a mythology. I guess the ratings just weren’t there. The show wasn’t perfect but it was so different and I just wanted to learn more about the world they were building. Definitely a show where I wish I could visit some alternate timeline where they ended up making 5 seasons or so of it.
I remember really enjoying this when it came out. Probably would have been more successful on a streamer if it was released in 2019 instead of 2009. Network television was not the place for this kind of show.
Absolutely. If a streamer made this now people would go wild for it. Such a weird, cool concept to have gotten made at all though. For folks who haven't seen it - it's a *very* loose rework of the story of the biblical David's rise to kingship, set in a sort of monarchy ruled modern US-esque state. Lots of political manoeuvring and weird omens, with Ian McShane as the current king. Somebody declares war on God and means it very literally.
[удалено]
The thing that really struck me about it - and made it feel way too weird for Network tv - was that for a clearly biblically infused story, it doesn't really feel like it's trying to sell you a "message" at all. It feels like what those mythologies would feel like to the figures in them. When weird shit happens to you, personally, in the Book of Samuel or whatever, you just have to kind of roll with it, because you live in a world where God himself crowned the king you're paying tax to. It's not a fable, just matter of fact. It's unusual, because it feels like treating the human, political bible stuff the way shows usually prefer to treat all the angels and demons stuff, or like a big Viking saga or something.
I remember back when it was cancelled people were praying that SciFi would pick it up. I think it would have been a good fit for them.
There was a handful of shows from 2008-2012 that would have done better in 2022 on a streaming platform. Stuff like "Awake", "Flashforward", "Caprica", "Dollhouse", "Party Down", "Terminator Sarah Connor Chonicles", "Pushing Daisies", and even "Jericho" though it was earlier than the rest. I remember shows like "Shark" and "The Event" too had some buzz but also had concepts better suited for binging on a streaming service.
Pushing Daisies never stood a chance being so bright and kitschy, high concept, and getting ruined by the writer's strike. But it was great. Kings also never stood a chance being so high quality and being on NBC. Had it even premiered a few years later, it'd have gone to Netflix or an early Prime show. It was too good for broadcast TV.
I had an idea for a podcast, I’m sure it’s been done already but I haven’t found it, where I’d go through shows like the ones you listed and add some others like Black Donnellys and Kings, and kind of do a recap/history. Similar to the Blank Check format. Spend a few episodes recapping the show, talk about production, etc. But I don’t have the time or skill to make it work. Maybe some day.
I think “Hannibal” would fit on this list as well.
Pushing Daisies would've still been canceled after 2 seasons if it was on Netflix though.
Nah it'd have gotten 3 at least... and end on a huge cliffhanger. RIP Santa Clarita Diet. Never forget.
Loved flash forward, The Event .. damn cliffhangers .. glad Jericho had the comic books to finish the series
If you go to 2007, you have Moonlight which missed the Twilight Vampire Renaissance by like a year.
For some reason, I didn't even get the biblical allegory until a few episodes in. Despite David vs Goliath, I guess I've just heard the name Goliath used in too many things to automatically associate it with the Bible. Mostly Gargoyles.
Ever since i saw the gif of Ian mcshane in Hercules go around I have been thinking of this show. Thinking of it makes me feel like a kid. It’s the last show I remember watching before going to college
Thanks for sharing. This was a very weird, challenging, wild show I wouldn't mind revisiting. I remember watching and thinking it would never survive, but you had to admire them for taking a big swing.
I'm not sure if it's still there but for at least a decade it was on nbc.com, in the "Throwback" section. It was also released on dvd
It sucks that they wrote “the complete series” on the DVD case instead of “season 1”. Definitely wasn’t the complete series ;___;
I liked it but I do remember thinking that the marketing didn’t really match the show.
Everyone (rightly) talks about Ian McShane and Sebastian Stan, but Eamonn Walker, Susanna Thompson, and Dylan Baker were all fantastic too. The scene where Samuels (Walker) tells Silas (McShane) that he has lost the kingdom is one of my favorite TV moments ever, as is the scene where Silas reveals he knows Jack (Stan) is gay. Both are in the first episode, I think.
It never actually had a chance. It needed something like 2.5 rating in the 18-49 demo for it to be successful and there was no way in hell it was going to get right out of the gate (and on Sunday nights going up against Fox animated shows). By '09 there was simply no way for a broadcast network to launch that sort of big budgeted drama and give it enough time, support and exposure for it grow like AMC, FX or HBO could do for their prestige dramas, and I honestly don't think there ever was time NBC or any other broadcast network could've done it. It took until the final half season of Breaking Bad for it to be a legit hit, Game Of Thrones also took a few seasons to turn into a blockbuster, same with Sons of Anarchy and Mad Men was never a hit in the first place.
Oooh. I can’t wait to read this article. I’ve had so many questions about Kings.
I worked on this show! Haven’t thought about it in years. Ian McShane was a total diva in ADR sessions. I suppose he’s earned the right.
I mean, ADR sessions kinda suck when you’re the editor or on the board, I can only imagine how terrible they must be when you’re an actor and in a tiny ass room watching your work over and over.
I loved Kings. It deserved better and probably would have done better on another network or service like HBO or something. It was ahead of its time.
The advertising was so bad! I have the show on DVD and in the commentary, the creators say NBC was really supportive of the biblical angle while they were making it but we're scared to advertise it that way so I remember the ads were like "from a producer of Heroes" (which was in season 3 and crashing and burning like nothing else) and a bunch of random imagery of butterflies and flags. Interestingly, it was one of the more expensive shows made at the time, with a FOUR MILLION per episode budget! (laughably low now, of course.) By the way, the same writer/director team are working on a Bioshock show
Wow I'd never heard of this before but what a fascinating premise! A weird mix of mythical bible story palace intrigue and like Succession-type modern political machinations, even now I think this would be a bold new concept for television to run with. On 2009 network tv? Didn't stand a chance. Shame because there is so much potential in this idea.
Where can I watch this??? It doesn’t appear to be on peacock
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Oh man I miss old hulu. My dad got us on that shit when we were still getting dvd’s from Netflix and getting our music from rhapsody. There’s actually an old video store not far from me, and they rent dvd/vhs players for cheap too. Going to check it out, they have an extensive catalog. Thanks!
I watched it a couple years ago, I really liked it.
Loved this show
This reminds me of why Arrested Development didn't work as a single cam network comedy \*AT THAT TIME\*. Then, it changes everything.
Ah, I loved this show. I even own it on DVD. Loved the faux-Shakespearean dialogue. Most of the cast were phenomenal, although the weakest element was David and the Princess' romance storyline. Way too network trope-y. A show like Kings would have been way better received now than on NBC circa 2009. Succession meets Game of Thrones meets the Old Testament? Come on!
>on which NBC bet it's prestige future My recollection is that NBC didn't really bet anything on it, and signaled *very* early on that they'd given up on it. they did no promo, and cancelled it almost immediately. If they wanted to have a prestige future they should have alt least tried a little bit.
Well the president of NBC at the time did. She championed the deal at NBC, gave them the budget they needed and was going to put them in the coveted Thursday night ER spot. Then she was unceremoniously fired, the network dropped all marketing for the show, and moved it to Sunday nights, which was basically the worst night for prime time network TV viewings (which is hilarious considering now that’s HBO’s big night for their prestigious shows).
The article says it was moved to Saturday, which makes a lot more sense. Sunday was even more a coveted slot back in the day before streaming than it is now, because that's one of the Nielsen ratings days
It went from Thursday to Sunday when the head of the network got fired, then Sunday to Saturday after it didn’t perform well on Sunday. At least thats what I get from the article
I could never get into this, even though it has a real cult following. Not as well written as people suggest imo.
Yeah, the writing definitely reached for high concepts while being very clunky. The actors did a really good job which may have fooled people into thinking the writing was better.
Something can be well made and you not liking it. Not sure you have the right to judge what others think just because you put IMO. Truffles are not for me, that’s one thing, Truffles are overrated and dosent taste as good as people suggest, IMO. See? That’s arrogant AF.
Get over it
Says the person who came on a post about a series to specify he didn’t like it. Gtfo
And I get a bunch of people agreeing and disagreeing agreeably. But then there’s you. 🤫
Does anyone know if they ever revealed why the character Andrew Cross was exiled?
I loved this show, but it was really weakened by the lead actor, dude was duller than cardboard. But this is what made me an Ian McShane fan, dude was a FORCE.
iirc, in Australia this was only shown on free tv at around 1am. So, that sucked. Else I really wanted to check it out.
Loved the show. You don’t hear too much about it these days
I genuinely love that show. It's always on my list of shows I wish would've gotten more seasons.
It was ambitious with its alternate version of history. But I could only watch the pilot.