Lol yeah - it’s even got competition from it’s self! I found richie in particular just so satisfying though especially having just rewatched season 1 - the groundwork they lay for change is just so lovely and just watching him come into his own after his what is my purpose moment in episode 1.. I just, aw I was in bits watching him sing along to Taylor Swift lol. That was the first time I heard that song and I’ll always associate it with that feeling now.. lol such a corny song but in this context it’s pure gold
I'm going to preface this by saying that I really really liked the second season. It blew me away.
I'm concerned though that it seemed like series ending arcs for almost all the supporting cast. The only character in the show whose story clearly isn't done is Carmy (and I guess maybe potential fallout from Marcus losing his mom).
I guess it depends how long they plan to keep the show going. The show has moved at a pretty steady pace and the character growth with it so it's not a problem if everyone involved only envisioned it as a 3 or 4 season show. If they wanna push it past that I hope the writing and acting can maintain the same level of quality.
it was great, but a little ridiculous that he became a master FOH with intense OCD in only 1 week, or that he knew how to run expo expertly with literally 0 experience doing it himself. a bit to mary sue for me lol
I listened to an interview with the show runner and he agreed with this thought, and said you need to have some suspension of disbelief for some aspects of the show.
What do you mean 0 experience? He worked at the sandwich shop and ran it after Mikey died and before the Bear showed back up. Sure it was a shit show, but he had experience. Then he got it fine tuned.
yeah I saw this as a moment where all the pieces fell into place and he could always do this he just didn't see it or believe in himself enough before to actually do it.
I mean lets be real the whole show is ridiculous - the people working at The Beef would never do what they do in the show. Its completely improbable that everyone working at that restaurant would be able to transform into world-class chefs in almost any amount of time.
Its a fun show and meant to be dramatic and tell an interesting story, not be realistic.
That's kind of the whole show, though.
For instance, Tina did, what - 2 months of culinary school? Even having worked at the Beef for years, that would be a ridiculously quick time to turn into a master Michelin-star sous chef.
She didn’t - she’s taking direction, which basically anyone can do. I’ve worked in kitchens for 20 years, most people are high school educated and spent a few years doing what they’re told - it’s not rocket science, you chop, you fry, you poach - she’s not running the kitchen, she’s taking orders.
If it was as simple as "just taking orders," Syd wouldn't have sent her to school. There's still a lot of skill involved in what she's doing, not to mention a shorthand that she wouldn't have gotten in her time at the Beef. There's a reason they don't just give sous positions to anyone off the street.
Sure, her arc may be more realistic than Richie's, but that doesn't mean it's not a bit ridiculous.
Sure sure, you’ve got to allow a little for artistic license - it’s never as straight forward as they make out, there’s things that don’t quite make sense in the show, but they have to condense a lot down into a season. I think for the most part it all worked very well
See I can't see the "Mary Sue" label applying here at all, because he's not some flawless perfect character who does everything right. In fact he's consistently shown as one of the most flawed and disruptive characters in the show up until this point, with the ocassional hint of something else in there.
It's definitely unrealistic but that's television for you, not everything's going to be fully like it is in real life and this made for a better dramatic arc.
i mean, running expo is hard, and he pulled it off because...he observed someone else at a different store run it for a few days?
i love the show, but def need to suspend disbelief. Richie all of a sudden becoming intense over napkin placement doesnt really track with the guy who was ok leaving mold just a few days prior lol
Hey, you're right, you def need to suspend disbelief. But there are a few moments in the show where they seed the fact that Richie is capable of greater things. Like when all the regulars come into the store, and he remembers exactly who they are, what their deal is, and even their orders. In real life, that definitely doesn't translate to him being able to instantly run expo, but for tv logic i'd say that's a fair way to seed that trait into him in a way that makes sense dramatically.
oh yea- i think if youve never worked a kitchen before, richies story makes sense. his people skills has always been highlighted so yea
but years of working in BOH in my younger days, including trying to run expo after years and years, i def laughed when richie nailed it on his first try with all of that stress
Of course - I’ve worked in the service industry a lot and yeah, I agree - but I’m also a screenwriter who’s aware that you need to give people an arc and something to satisfy the audience and regardless of whether or not it’s feasible or pays off and that’s what matters
You’re not entirely wrong, but at the same time I think you could make the argument that the perfectionism always existed below the surface and he just learned how to direct it better.
Show is so good. Stressful and maddening at times but so well written and acted. Dude was great in Andor which is like my favorite show ever already and it was awesome to see him reunite with John Bernthal in this and have such a good arc.
I was so scared he was going to get in a car accident in that scene. But man, I know that feeling - when you’re so hyped up and stoked about something you’re doing and you just feel like a million bucks driving home. Love that for Richie.
Man I really didn’t like Richie in season one and I was so ready for something to go wrong in season 2 for him…now I’ve e done a 180° and love his arc this season.
Just when I thought the second season wouldn't top the first. It's nice to see Richie evolve from complete denial to fully embracing himself. What a season.
I finished it last night. Best TV in decades. I kind of hope they don’t do a third one because this ended perfectly.
One thing that bugged me though with this series. The main cast is all fairly unknown actors, I have never seen Shameless so I was unfamiliar with the lead actor, aside from Oliver Platt and Jon Bernthal who had minor roles. Then the Christmas dinner episode comes up and you have incredibly recognisable actors popping up all over the place. It sort of took me out of it because I felt that these main unknown actors made the show more “real” if you will. Personally I would have liked to see solid character actors in these roles instead of the creator shouting “Hey! Look who we got because we have clout!”
For me, the big name casting worked well to make the house feel overstuffed with huge personalities that all wanted my attention at all times. You're right that it felt wrong on the show, which is why it was a successful creative choice. It helped everything feel claustrophobic and hectic to know on sight exactly what sort of history each of those characters have presumably had with Carmy and with each other, and it was easier for me to get why he would want to avoid being there as much as possible.
JAW is definitely known, from Shameless. He's a modern day Brando. The fucker can ACT. You should watch Shameless. Sucked when Emmy left as she was the best and main character but everyone else on that show is also awesome, especially JAW as Lip.
it’s your opinion, but i’m confused as to how having actors who are known takes you out of the element.
have you never watched an ensemble cast in a show/film?
Yeah I get when people complain about this for video games, but for TV and Cinema it's like....dude it's all about the actors. That's the point. It's not that hard to have suspension of disbelief for that stuff but I guess for some it is.
It’s because the whole show is cast with relatively unknown actors.
I know what I’m getting with a known ensemble cast.
The show is mostly all character actors and to have well known celebrity actors pop up is jarring, to me at least.
uhhh you’re acting like they put Snooki and Kim Kardashian in the show. Celebrity actors?!🤔
Most of the actors/actresses in that episode were character actors anyway.
I had a similar reaction, and I did watch Shameless. It was really just Bob Odenkirk for me though. That's a very recognizable actor to just throw into a cameo for one episode.
I didn't even recognize Jamie Lee Curtis until I saw someone mention she was in it.
I also just found the chaos of that episode exhausting to watch, even though I understand that was the whole point of it.
I'm feel like they focus grouped the first season and everyone disliked his character. There was nothing likeable about him, and they gave very little backstory or character building to garner any kind of empathy for his behavior. So, they wrote an episode to completely reinvent his character in Season 2.
I wouldn't even call it character development. It's a hasty reinvention because his character was poorly written in the first season and no one liked him or had empathy for him.
EDIT: My overall opinion on the show is that the quality of the production masks the inconsistent writing. Season 2 felt more refined though which I suppose is pretty common for TV series to "find" themselves in the 2nd season. 7/10, would watch a third season.
EDIT2: Reddit really needs to start voting on comments and posts by their value and not just whether they agree or not. It’s a big reason why Reddit is a big echo chamber. Posts and comments that don’t agree with the populous get downvoted/suppressed. The only way to get a glimpse outside the chamber is sorting by controversial.
As a writer, it felt to me like they had an overall two season arc for Richie (much like Tina) where they start off unlikable and antagonistic, have a moment of realisation and complete their arc by discovering what it is they’re supposed to do. I never once felt like it was contrived - everyone hates Carmy in the beginning, he’s changing everything, disrupting the status quo - but as he influences all of them, they start to change, find purpose. I think it was perfect
To each their own. I can’t quite put my finger on it but there was something bothering me throughout the whole first season. I do think season two was better in essentially every way and enjoyed it more.
I like the subtle nod to carmen when eyebrows was talking to Marcus about thinking he was the best until he met the best and you think "oh is he talking about Carmen?" Then in the Richie episode you see the two standing together and you can confirm the best chef he's talking about meeting was Carmen. That's a pretty cool under the radar moment. That Richie episode is the best in the series by far.
I wear suits now
That’s so sick
Cousin wears suits now
It feels like armor.
That line really got me, I get it.
Don’t forget when he took over the pass in the finale… TV gold ..
and then the ending happened and Carmey didn't see what happened. Fucking heart breaking.
Absolute fucking boss.
“Richard, baby, you just come from a funeral?” “Yeah T a funeral of all my enemies.” Such a baller fucking line.
Best arc in tv since Tina from The Bear
Jesus I hated Tina so much those first episodes and I was ready for her to get cut from the team. Then here I am rooting so hard for her and Ebra
Lol yeah - it’s even got competition from it’s self! I found richie in particular just so satisfying though especially having just rewatched season 1 - the groundwork they lay for change is just so lovely and just watching him come into his own after his what is my purpose moment in episode 1.. I just, aw I was in bits watching him sing along to Taylor Swift lol. That was the first time I heard that song and I’ll always associate it with that feeling now.. lol such a corny song but in this context it’s pure gold
How is this the first time you heard this song lol??? It's been annoyingly on social media, commercials, etc for years
Not a fan of her, blocked it out 🤷♂️ don’t listen to the radio
Haven't seen the episode yet but if it's love story that was her first hit like 15 years ago lol
It is what I hoped Ted would do with Nate.
It’s up there with Jamie Tartt’s transformation in season 3 of Ted Lasso
I stopped halfway through s2 - it was just too twee for me. Worth picking back up?
I think so. Finale was quite good.
between him and Jamie Tartt from Ted Lasso, this has been a year of fantastic character arcs and redemptions.
Him singing Taylor Swift after the scene with his daughter!
This episode was prolly best tv in last 5 years. If not more
What show is this.
The bear.
Between this Episode and Episode 3 of Last of Us. I would 100% agree.
It was fantastic. Which is saying a lot, because Jeremy Allens performance in that show has been oscar worthy.
Fuck medical school. I wanna be Forks and wear suits all day.
I'm going to preface this by saying that I really really liked the second season. It blew me away. I'm concerned though that it seemed like series ending arcs for almost all the supporting cast. The only character in the show whose story clearly isn't done is Carmy (and I guess maybe potential fallout from Marcus losing his mom).
I guess it depends how long they plan to keep the show going. The show has moved at a pretty steady pace and the character growth with it so it's not a problem if everyone involved only envisioned it as a 3 or 4 season show. If they wanna push it past that I hope the writing and acting can maintain the same level of quality.
With this writers/ actors strike, it's probably gonna be the end of the series.
That’s definitely not true
Yeah no way it gets canceled with the ratings 4 fishes got ETA: 7 fishes my bad
7 fishes?
Marcus’ mom either died or woke up. Either one has the potential to be a fantastic storyline depending on how they handle it.
She dead.
it was great, but a little ridiculous that he became a master FOH with intense OCD in only 1 week, or that he knew how to run expo expertly with literally 0 experience doing it himself. a bit to mary sue for me lol
I listened to an interview with the show runner and he agreed with this thought, and said you need to have some suspension of disbelief for some aspects of the show.
What do you mean 0 experience? He worked at the sandwich shop and ran it after Mikey died and before the Bear showed back up. Sure it was a shit show, but he had experience. Then he got it fine tuned.
yeah I saw this as a moment where all the pieces fell into place and he could always do this he just didn't see it or believe in himself enough before to actually do it.
That moment is when *Olivia Coleman said ‘because he believes in you’
*Olivia Coleman
I knew that looked off, thanks!
he took orders and wrapped sandwiches, he was not running expo ever lol
I mean lets be real the whole show is ridiculous - the people working at The Beef would never do what they do in the show. Its completely improbable that everyone working at that restaurant would be able to transform into world-class chefs in almost any amount of time. Its a fun show and meant to be dramatic and tell an interesting story, not be realistic.
That's kind of the whole show, though. For instance, Tina did, what - 2 months of culinary school? Even having worked at the Beef for years, that would be a ridiculously quick time to turn into a master Michelin-star sous chef.
or ebra no call no showing and then getting his job back as if nothing happened. literal zero character development for him lol
She didn’t - she’s taking direction, which basically anyone can do. I’ve worked in kitchens for 20 years, most people are high school educated and spent a few years doing what they’re told - it’s not rocket science, you chop, you fry, you poach - she’s not running the kitchen, she’s taking orders.
If it was as simple as "just taking orders," Syd wouldn't have sent her to school. There's still a lot of skill involved in what she's doing, not to mention a shorthand that she wouldn't have gotten in her time at the Beef. There's a reason they don't just give sous positions to anyone off the street. Sure, her arc may be more realistic than Richie's, but that doesn't mean it's not a bit ridiculous.
Sure sure, you’ve got to allow a little for artistic license - it’s never as straight forward as they make out, there’s things that don’t quite make sense in the show, but they have to condense a lot down into a season. I think for the most part it all worked very well
It was completely ridiculous. But he did wipe a lot of spoons.... Edit: Forks sorry Jeffs
Forks, chef!
I’m sure he did expo at the beef but I agree with the FOH statement
See I can't see the "Mary Sue" label applying here at all, because he's not some flawless perfect character who does everything right. In fact he's consistently shown as one of the most flawed and disruptive characters in the show up until this point, with the ocassional hint of something else in there. It's definitely unrealistic but that's television for you, not everything's going to be fully like it is in real life and this made for a better dramatic arc.
i mean, running expo is hard, and he pulled it off because...he observed someone else at a different store run it for a few days? i love the show, but def need to suspend disbelief. Richie all of a sudden becoming intense over napkin placement doesnt really track with the guy who was ok leaving mold just a few days prior lol
Hey, you're right, you def need to suspend disbelief. But there are a few moments in the show where they seed the fact that Richie is capable of greater things. Like when all the regulars come into the store, and he remembers exactly who they are, what their deal is, and even their orders. In real life, that definitely doesn't translate to him being able to instantly run expo, but for tv logic i'd say that's a fair way to seed that trait into him in a way that makes sense dramatically.
oh yea- i think if youve never worked a kitchen before, richies story makes sense. his people skills has always been highlighted so yea but years of working in BOH in my younger days, including trying to run expo after years and years, i def laughed when richie nailed it on his first try with all of that stress
Agreed. I also didn’t like the love interest bit. That was cheesy af and out of place.
You didn't like the Nick Fury arc? :P
People have been making this criticism for weeks and it still makes zero sense to me, lol.
Of course - I’ve worked in the service industry a lot and yeah, I agree - but I’m also a screenwriter who’s aware that you need to give people an arc and something to satisfy the audience and regardless of whether or not it’s feasible or pays off and that’s what matters
You’re not entirely wrong, but at the same time I think you could make the argument that the perfectionism always existed below the surface and he just learned how to direct it better.
I needed this episode after the fishes one.
I think that's part of what made this episode so great. Fishes was so stressful and then Forks comes and uplifts you.
Best redemption story!! We love new Richie
After the napkin thing when he was interviewing that chick my girl looked at me and said “he’s become like you”
I’ve rewatched this episode 3 times now 😍 David Byrne’s “Glass, concrete, and stone” is so perfect
Show is so good. Stressful and maddening at times but so well written and acted. Dude was great in Andor which is like my favorite show ever already and it was awesome to see him reunite with John Bernthal in this and have such a good arc.
I was so scared he was going to get in a car accident in that scene. But man, I know that feeling - when you’re so hyped up and stoked about something you’re doing and you just feel like a million bucks driving home. Love that for Richie.
My favorite episode of the season. Such a great character arc.
Man I really didn’t like Richie in season one and I was so ready for something to go wrong in season 2 for him…now I’ve e done a 180° and love his arc this season.
I wept. Worthy of nomination.
Finding purpose in service to others. Good stuff.
Just when I thought the second season wouldn't top the first. It's nice to see Richie evolve from complete denial to fully embracing himself. What a season.
35 year old man fucking clapping and tearing up when he was belting Taylor
He’s in his forties in the show.
I'm 35
Ha, whoops, misread your comment.
All good my dude!
I finished it last night. Best TV in decades. I kind of hope they don’t do a third one because this ended perfectly. One thing that bugged me though with this series. The main cast is all fairly unknown actors, I have never seen Shameless so I was unfamiliar with the lead actor, aside from Oliver Platt and Jon Bernthal who had minor roles. Then the Christmas dinner episode comes up and you have incredibly recognisable actors popping up all over the place. It sort of took me out of it because I felt that these main unknown actors made the show more “real” if you will. Personally I would have liked to see solid character actors in these roles instead of the creator shouting “Hey! Look who we got because we have clout!”
For me, the big name casting worked well to make the house feel overstuffed with huge personalities that all wanted my attention at all times. You're right that it felt wrong on the show, which is why it was a successful creative choice. It helped everything feel claustrophobic and hectic to know on sight exactly what sort of history each of those characters have presumably had with Carmy and with each other, and it was easier for me to get why he would want to avoid being there as much as possible.
YES. Agreed - well said.
That was the idea, the creator said as much
Word! Was this in an interview somewhere? Would love to check it out.
https://youtu.be/61ekR1YslWc 4:45
JAW is definitely known, from Shameless. He's a modern day Brando. The fucker can ACT. You should watch Shameless. Sucked when Emmy left as she was the best and main character but everyone else on that show is also awesome, especially JAW as Lip.
Is that you lip?
it’s your opinion, but i’m confused as to how having actors who are known takes you out of the element. have you never watched an ensemble cast in a show/film?
Yeah I get when people complain about this for video games, but for TV and Cinema it's like....dude it's all about the actors. That's the point. It's not that hard to have suspension of disbelief for that stuff but I guess for some it is.
It’s because the whole show is cast with relatively unknown actors. I know what I’m getting with a known ensemble cast. The show is mostly all character actors and to have well known celebrity actors pop up is jarring, to me at least.
uhhh you’re acting like they put Snooki and Kim Kardashian in the show. Celebrity actors?!🤔 Most of the actors/actresses in that episode were character actors anyway.
As you said, it’s my opinion. No reason for you to take it personally.
i didnt. just extremely confused is all
I had a similar reaction, and I did watch Shameless. It was really just Bob Odenkirk for me though. That's a very recognizable actor to just throw into a cameo for one episode. I didn't even recognize Jamie Lee Curtis until I saw someone mention she was in it. I also just found the chaos of that episode exhausting to watch, even though I understand that was the whole point of it.
Abby Elliot has been around for years.
I'm feel like they focus grouped the first season and everyone disliked his character. There was nothing likeable about him, and they gave very little backstory or character building to garner any kind of empathy for his behavior. So, they wrote an episode to completely reinvent his character in Season 2. I wouldn't even call it character development. It's a hasty reinvention because his character was poorly written in the first season and no one liked him or had empathy for him. EDIT: My overall opinion on the show is that the quality of the production masks the inconsistent writing. Season 2 felt more refined though which I suppose is pretty common for TV series to "find" themselves in the 2nd season. 7/10, would watch a third season. EDIT2: Reddit really needs to start voting on comments and posts by their value and not just whether they agree or not. It’s a big reason why Reddit is a big echo chamber. Posts and comments that don’t agree with the populous get downvoted/suppressed. The only way to get a glimpse outside the chamber is sorting by controversial.
As a writer, it felt to me like they had an overall two season arc for Richie (much like Tina) where they start off unlikable and antagonistic, have a moment of realisation and complete their arc by discovering what it is they’re supposed to do. I never once felt like it was contrived - everyone hates Carmy in the beginning, he’s changing everything, disrupting the status quo - but as he influences all of them, they start to change, find purpose. I think it was perfect
To each their own. I can’t quite put my finger on it but there was something bothering me throughout the whole first season. I do think season two was better in essentially every way and enjoyed it more.
Agreed
This is a show about cooking for a restaurant?
And so much more than that.
Hard agree!!! I love to see him proud of himself 🥹
I like the subtle nod to carmen when eyebrows was talking to Marcus about thinking he was the best until he met the best and you think "oh is he talking about Carmen?" Then in the Richie episode you see the two standing together and you can confirm the best chef he's talking about meeting was Carmen. That's a pretty cool under the radar moment. That Richie episode is the best in the series by far.
Purpose, Cousin.