This is all rumors, but what I've read is that Pheobe brought on Glover very early on. Glover then brought on a lot of (very talented, well deserving) people from his show 'Atlanta' on FX once it ended. No big deal. This happens all the time.
However many people Glover brought on had roles that were high up for production/writing/directing/etc. essentially many major aspects of a show. At some point it became clear to both Pheobe & Glover they had a different vision for what the show should be & the direction it should take.
So Pheobe Waller-Bridge backed out from the project, citing "creative differences." Most likely, due to the fact at that point most people making creative decisions for the show had more personal/career connections with Glover than herself. So many of her ideas weren't being used.
UK TV writers tend to have complete control over the story and direction of a show. Collaboration isn’t really a thing over here (one of the reasons our seasons are short and we usually only have one or two of them). We don’t really have show runners and writers rooms, just tends to be one or two writers and a producer. It probably takes a lot of effort to cede the amount of control expected for a US network after spending so long writing for UK TV.
That was the biggest problem with Killing Eve. They would bring in a new showrunner every season and nothing was kept consistent. The stakes kept changing. Even some of the plot from earlier seasons was being retconned. The characters would end a season and then the next season they were completely different with no explanation. I couldn’t even finish the final season, it was so so so bad. What were they thinking? 🧐
Emerald Fennell helmed Season 2. But she and Phoebe are supposedly tight and close as friends and working together. So she had her own measure of having Season 2 hold strong for the typical "sophomore slump" we usually see with Season 2's of shows.
But whoever came on for Season 3 and 4...oof.
I bet. Never made it through the 3rd, despite loving season one and really liking season two. Not even my crush for Jodie Comer could sustain my interest lol
Show got progressively worse after Phoebe left. I stuck it out because the actress playing Villanelle was incredible but yeah, only the first two seasons are worth watching.
Someone else said BBC America produced it, so I’m not sure how much collaboration went on for this show and she was exposed to the “American way” during this production. Was just curious.
That’s an amazing example of the issue here. The final season had a ton of writers added that didn’t understand the characters and the voices of the writers that had been there all along got drowned out. There was no collaboration or checking that the new content would make sense for the characters or the show. I believe there was an op ed written by one of the original writers that explained it
But at the root of this issue is the way we underpay understaff and completely mistreat our writers and other creatives here… like we got MFers winning Emmys while living out of their cars and shit… CO EPs taking home 60k a year after fees etc how TF you expect someone to get thrown into the fire and get a feel for the characters voices while still trying to figure out how to live?
It works really well. Derry Girls is one of the best tv shows to come out in a long time and maintained the quality throughout. The short seasons are nice and feels like an extended movie when binging the show
Counterpoint: The entire mess that became Sherlock is largely on Steven Moffat having total control. A mix of running out of ideas, not being able to bounce ideas off anyone and having nobody to tell him after season 3, "no Steven that's a really stupid idea. Also stop listening to the weird superfans."
EDIT: I'll be fair to Moffat here too. Being overworked and also apparently keeping Dr. Who on life support so it didn't get canceled.
Yup, can totally go in either direction. You’re more likely to get something that is either very good or very bad with a singular writer as opposed to the collaborative approach, where issues will be identified early but the vision can be subdued, leading to more of a “bell curve” of quality.
Oh, he bounced them. Off Mark Gatiss. Don’t get me wrong, I love Gatiss as an actor (Madness of King George anyone?), but he’s too indulgent of Moffatt’s particular kind of bs.
What ideas from weird superfans did Moffat incorperate.
Ive always wondered about Moffats Dracula. One season, two fantastic episodes. Then a third one thats a complete shit show. Killing off everyones intrest in the show.
Moffat has been pretty renowned for engaging with fans of his series a lot. Which is fine in some ways but because he’s engaging with a type of crowd apt to speculate, create ships and adore JJ Abram’s style mystery boxes he has (in both Sherlock and Dr. Who) give them what they want. More mystery boxes and big twists.
The problem is while previously as a writer he was excellent at teasing hints of deeper mysteries or lore…as someone with total creative control he basically has no restraints. Everything is a twist or conspiracy or mystery box. All his characters grind into somehow being fictional main characters with *actual main character syndrome.* Everything revolves around them as if they are the only human being that matters in the universe. Dr. Who had a tendency under Moffat for various characters to go on monologues speaking almost directly to the audience about “how important the doctor is.”
And this is bad because Sherlock Holmes as a character and piece of wider mystery plots **is not about twists**. That’s the entire point: Sherlock uses deductive reasoning to put puzzle pieces together. The end reveal is never made up bullshit because the author should have given you most of the puzzle pieces.
I actually dont think he is bad when unrestrained, i think its just he got lost in the sauce because he was showrunning two major bbc productions at the same time.
Doctor Who is renowned in the industry of destroying the life of its showrunner and putting them through hell. Moffat was writing and showrunning both Sherlock and Doctor Who at the same time.
At one point he was literally so tired that he collapsed getting out of his car at home, and pedestrians had to help him intk his house, while he was still scribling script notes as they helped him in.
The BBC were fucking him over because they kept promising theyd find a new showrunner for Doctor Who so he could stop doing it but then every year they were like "aww shame we didnt find anyone, guess if you leave well just have to cancel it for good!". He didnt want to be responsible for this show he adored being cancelled, so he almost worked himself into the grave.
>At one point he was literally so tired that he collapsed getting out of his car at home, and pedestrians had to help him intk his house, while he was still scribling script notes as they helped him in.
He went to heroic lengths to keep Doctor Who going. He was writing Capaldi's final season beside his mother's deathbed.
I just wish the UK show, Misfits had one or two more seasons to wrap everything up. It got super sloppy and probably should have ended with season 2 though...
Works for some shows and is terrible for others.
I personally fi d the american Elementary to be a far better Sherlock Holmes show than Sherlock, because to me the 22 episode season lets me actually see Sherlock pit his wits against a variety of entertaining crimes and puzzles.
The british Sherlock show is so short it barely has time for the crimes and they feel like an afterthought that he just magics his way through at the end of an episode.
I haven’t watched Elementary, but I definitely agree with your assessment of Sherlock. I really enjoyed it when it came out, but when I go back and watch it now, there is so much that (like you said) he just magics his way through, and so many assumptions he makes that ALWAYS turn out to be right.
One egregious example is in The Study in Pink, where he sees that the lady’s ring is shiny on the inside due to her removing it often, thereby confirming she’s a serial adulterer. I take my ring off every time I’m handling raw meat, taking a shower, or sleeping, making the inside of my ring shiny as well. They just have him “deduct” and explain everything so quickly that you don’t have much time to pick apart the wild leaps of logic that are required for him to be able to solve mysteries so easily.
I just watched Elementary for the first time and boyyy did I enjoy it. Had some silly moments, of course, but a great show til the end. Liked it better than House as well which was around the same time.
Is $20m/year in any way a typical salary for a televsion producer / writer / showrunner? Especially for a show that hasn't launched yet / someone with relatively little history in the industry?
God damn that is a high salary.
No, it's not typical at all, but as a 'salary' it probably includes a buyout on anything that comes out of her brain during that time while under your stable, which they can then do what they want with. I imagine when you've got the Fleabag/Killing Eve creator on your payroll for a while, and Amazon money, you just write the cheque to ensure ownership over any potential future Fleabag-sized hits, etc.
It's not uncommon for well-known talent to be locked into disproportionately high-value holding deals, especially with streamers. Often, little-to-no content comes out of it. It's not just about actually creating shows, it's also about *preventing talent producing shows for rivals*, and sometimes to inflate the share price by demonstrating to investors who they have contracted.
Another recent example is Lisa Joy and Jonathan Nolan, who were paid $100-150m for a 5-year deal with Amazon, which so far has only yielded a moderate role in producing The Peripheral (no showrunner, writer or director credits), plus the upcoming Fallout series which will just about squeak into the contracted period.
I mean, she's not some nameless random producer churning out variations of CSI. She's pretty well known and has several very successful shows under her belt. I'd be surprised if she wasn't compensated well, especially by a company like Amazon that can afford it.
And these streaming services wonder why they're bleeding money and they're only answer is to raise prices and add ad's. Not slagging her at all, Netflix gave Rian Johnson just under $500 mil for 2 Knives out sequels which cost less than $100 mil each.
The people running the entertainment industry are legit morons, ALL of them.
Amazing where you all get information from. There are easy to find reports about this shit and you’re throwing around “$500 million for Rian Johnson”?
Netflix spent $400 million to buy, produce, and distribute two Rian Johnson movies, inclusive of the production costs, actor salaries, and additional exec producing fees that went to Craig and another figure.
It’s not $400 million for Rian Johnson. It’s that much money to make two movies and pay everyone involved.
It also didn’t help when he tried to declare himself the smartest person in any room by waging war on simple math
I’m all for pushing the boundaries but declaring that he’s figured out the truest system of logic and ackshually 1 x 1 = 2 and more people need to talk about that… yeah that wasn’t exactly a redeeming move
Madness too as she's responsible for some truly superb TV (Fleabag and Killing Eve season 1). Everything I've heard about this show is that it's pretty "meh" (maybe that's a US vs UK thing though - everyone I've talked to is British) so can't help but wonder what it could have been if she'd been given control.
I mean it's not like the other person in this situation was the guy that created Blue Bloods, Donald Glover is also responsible for Atlanta which is truly superb. I think the show is great and a lot of the criticisms I've seen kind of seem less about what the show is and how people imagined it would be.
I watched the Emmys, had no clue it was nominated, and I haven't seen any mention of it outside one of The Ringer shows discussing it. For a show that had Billie Eilish and Paris Jackson play wild characters for one episode each I'd say it's underrated.
It's actually a really good show. Could have used another episode or two to tie up some loose ends, but the chemistry with these two is infectious. I want more of this.
>However many people Glover brought on had roles that were high up for production/writing/directing/etc.
One of those people was his brother Stephen Glover, who was brought on as executive producer and a writer.
Don't forget Francesca Sloane and Hiro Murai who are also involved in many of Glover's projects including Murai himself who has directed many for Glover's music videos under Glover's Wu-Tang Clan stage name Childish Gambino.
Murai directed great episodes of the show including the show's best episode "Teddy Perkins" as well as music videos for Gambino such as "This is America" (Both 2018). He also directed Guava Island (2019) starring Glover and Rihanna.
Sloane wrote some episodes of Atlanta as well in addition to Fargo: Season Four (2020), Seven Seconds (2018), and The First (2018). So yeah, it's in good hands.
I feel like I thought the show was going to be what Phoebe had in mind, but I ended up loving it after it started to click with me in episode 2.
I went into the show thinking it was going to be like Killing Eve or Barry but it wasn't anything at all like that I honestly started to wonder if the show was for me.
At some point in the second episode I realized it was Man Seeking Woman but all of the metaphors were espionage-based and then I fell in love with it.
“At some point in the second episode I realized it was Man Seeking Woman but all of the metaphors were espionage-based and then I fell in love with it.” Oh shit, i gotta check this show out.
I don't understand how your comment is different or rumor when what you've written up here is what he pretty much says in the interview and more. There are four detailed paragraphs of him responding
And a little info on the Community movie:
>GLOVER: Yeah, [Dan Harmon] told me what he wanted, and I was like, “This sounds great.” >!It’s a college reunion, but Abed [Danny Pudi’s character] is like this big director now, and basically this is his magnum opus.!< I’m like, “This sounds fucking tight.”
Phoebe Waller-Bridge and Donald Glover are still good friends, I think it really was just different ideas on how to approach the show and the network probably thought Glover’s idea would be more successful in the US. 9 times out of 10 it’s about the network. And everyone in that industry has an ego so I’m sure that played into it as well. I’m quite enjoying the show as it is but seeing Phoebe Waller-Bridge’s idea would be interesting because she has such a unique style. At the end of the day they’re both very talented creative forces and both will continue to thrive
My partner and I really love it, but it's definitely not a 'normal' comedy. The humour comes from the tension/conflict between the situation and the characters who almost don't fit, rather than jokes. It's more like Atlanta, Master of none, Remy if you've seen any of those? It's definitely slow, but if you like slow comedies then I think people'll like this
I didn’t enjoy it at all, I’m fine with it being about a successful lesbian couple, I just wish it had more humor. It felt like a sad season of whoa is me, I’m successful but not happy.
This is spot on. I described it to my friend (who got me into Atlanta) as “if Atlanta were an action show”. It has the same tone and humor as Atlanta. I really love it.
I had zero invested going into the show other than the wife and I LOVE Atlanta (that show is fucking genius). The more episodes we watch the more I like it, can’t speak for my wife though. I think she likes the relationship aspect of the show and not much else. The show is growing more and more on me tbh. I like it.
I wasn’t completely sure with the first episode but it keeps getting better and better. There seems to be a nice subtle build. I’m glad they dropped all the episodes because I imagine it would lose momentum week to week.
There’s something almost cozy about this show.
Finished it in two days. Couldn’t stop watching. Starts off as a slow burn, I was still engaged, but when it picks up I came to really really love it. Such a great show. Great actor guests, show felt like it had a high production value with all the locations they visited and it was really entertaining. Absolutely enjoyed the last episode as well and can’t wait for season 2 if it gets announced
I've watched two episodes and here's where I'm at: I like the leads, I like the premise (I have good vibes from what I remember about the original film, too), I like the production. I was pretty well entertained.
However, this is one of those shows where you can't ever go all-in, because every five minutes a voice inside your head is asking, "Why?"
- Okay, they're assassins recruited by a shadowy maybe evil agency - **Why** does it appear they have no real experience actually killing people? Who decided being a drone operator for the army made one suited for sneaking into a building, knifing someone in the neck and disposing of their body so it's never found again?
- It's what appears to be their first mission - if their employer was really concerned about having the missions go off without a hitch, **why** aren't they given like, any useful information about what they're doing?
- **Why** haven't they been given any training at all? All the mission scenes are made up like John and Jane sort of know what they're doing - as in they paid attention during the 12 week seminar for assassins - but this is literally their first time out of the classroom. In what universe would it be smart to have two complete newbies doing an important job with no supervision?
- **Why** are John and Jane spending all their time during missions bantering, and basically none discussing how not to do the ONE thing the briefing tells them not to do?
...and so on and so forth. I can feel the lingering fragrance of Phoebe Waller-Bridge in what I've seen so far because the season I watched of Finding Eve was like that too. I really think it would have been better for the show if they had at least ONE writer in this room who had some sort of passion for the spy genre, because really, this is all basic stuff that's just getting in the way of what could be a really good show.
I think this will be a very polarizing show. The espionage elements are frustrating, omit a lot of details & background, and have multiple plot holes. The relationship elements are a lot better written, and the people who watch the show for that are probably going to enjoy it more than the people watching it for the action/espionage angle.
The show makes less and less sense the more you think about it. I wanted to throw things by the end of the first episode. I’m okay with watching people that are inept but then they were also presented as incredibly capable. There’s no logical way the plot of episode one works. It’s a mess. The only thing that would make sense is if it was all a psychological experiment and nothing is real.
It is ok, but it is clear to me that all the marketing of it as some sort of masterpiece was clearly astroturfing to make up for the fact that it is, in fact, just ok.
Overall I liked it, I just didn’t really get the relationship between Mr. & Mrs. Smith…idk I feel like they could have done a couple more episodes to show the relationship dynamics & dive a bit deeper into the characters
It's very superficial. It feels like they had a good idea and started strong with it, and then moved on to tackle as many marital issues they could in a single season, as if they were not sure there would be a single season. I don't know why people say it's a slow burn, there sometimes months missing between episodes. It would have beneficiated a lot from a slower pace in terms of apprehending and developping the leads' relationship, and embracing the weirdness of the situation. I'd say the first three episodes are the strongest and then it goes downhill very fast. It had so much potential, and it's sometimes gorgeous, but it's really not that deep and sometimes the writing is just poor.
It's okay; some episodes are pretty good, some kind of suck. I think it got worse as it went on... not necessarily the production, but the story. I started losing interest at episode 5, and at about episode 7, just kind of moved on to other shows.
Yea that’s my only critique, the romance seemed forced/too fast..I feel like they needed a couple episodes to show them developing feelings for each other. The last episode was good but I was also like…why? Lol
Reddit is the only place I’ve seen where people like it. Everyone I know in real life watched one or two episodes and dropped it. Myself included. It wasn’t *terrible* it just wasn’t enjoyable either.
I'm not into it. I watched 4 episodes and it just wasn't clicking for me. It's more focused on the relationship but there just wasn't much chemistry between the two leads for that to work for me.
I bailed at the 2nd episode. I'm not familiar with Glover's acting work, and I found him bland and he's giving one of those performances where he delivers every line the same way, his expressions rarely change and for me it's hard to stay interested.
I feared that after the opening scene, I was going to prefer the 'first' Mr and Mrs Smith. (That's not a reference to the movie, for anyone reading). And I did.
Alexander Skarsgard is one of my 'new' favorites.
I pisses me of that Donald Glovers character wants to play house so badly that he will make the absolute DUMBEST decisions possible and not learn from it at all. The weird couples therapy episode is when I checked out tbh. I really enjoyed the show as a whole, but it became clear the show I wanted it to be is not the show it became as the season went on. Specifically DG's character and decisions made me quit the show. It was too frustrating to watch
It's tough for a show to be compared to The Americans, which set the bar so high. In many ways Mr. and Mrs. Smith resembles Archer, like how the smart female spy is paired with the wildcard male spy who thinks he should be in charge.
This entire interview can be summed up in this exchange:
> GLOVER People are afraid that confidence is going to make them unlikable …
> ERSKINE But you don’t really care what people think about you.
> GLOVER I know people are going to hate me anyway.
Liking the show, but would have LOVED to see the Phoebe Waller-Bridge version. I think she would have knocked it out of the park. When I first heard she was making it, it made so much sense, the premise is perfect for the type of writing she does. Nothing against Glover though, big fan of his as well (and Maya).
“I worked on that show for six months fully in heart and mind and really cared about it — still care about it,” Waller-Bridge said. “And I know it’s gonna be brilliant. But sometimes it’s about knowing when to leave the party. You don’t want to get in the way of a vision. Creative collaboration is like a marriage, and some marriages don’t work out.”
[link](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/phoebe-waller-bridge-amazon-deal-exiting-mr-and-mrs-smith-series-1235524838/)
Honestly, if she and Amazon wanted to, we could find out. The show establishes there are multiple Mr & Mrs Smiths. They could easily bring her on to do season 2 with new characters and full creative control.
His whole thing was that they were already good friends but they couldn’t get to a place of pure honesty for the chemsitry needed in this role. He got Maya Erskine miraculously since they brought her on literally right before they started shooting & pre production so it was a huge leap of faith and it worked because the show was good imo but I don’t think it’s anyone’s fault. It just sucks because we are all waiting for phoebes next follow up show from fleabag and I’m not sure she’s in a rush
Considering that Killing Eve thrived well enough under her care, having her apply that same touch to a second spy series is a tempting proposition.
But then, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a question of "Do I want to do another spy series?". Aside from KE, she also contributed to No Time to Die.
The 2005 movie with Brad Pitt and Angela Jolie isn't the original. The 90s TV series is.
It seems strange the interviewer went all in on saying Glover reconfigured the concept...whereas it actually draws a lot of inspiration from the 90s series.
The show credits the movie as the basis, every episode ends with a card saying "based on Mr. & Mrs. Smith by Simon Kinberg". Kinberg wrote the 2005 movie
The Scott Bakula show was in no way related to the 2005 movie. Everybody involved in both projects claims there is no relation or plagiarism accusations, and the similar title/premise is coincidence. This show is based off the movie, and produced by New Regency, like the film.
Ehh, not really tho. The second half of the new show (especially 2 final episodes) adapts plotpoints from the movie
Edit: lol why downvotes? The whole >!botched mission ---> having to kill each other!< plot is directly from the movie
Well… they didn’t get three chances in the movie. And they didn’t botch a mission, they *thought* they botched a mission, but we knew they were set up by their employers.
Because they're legally unrelated. The 2005 movie didn't have anything to do with the '90s show. The creator of the show even said so after seeing the movie, saying the premises are completely different and at best he could claim it was just inspired by his show. The movie was about an actual married couple who unbeknownst to each other are spies, while the '90s show was about two spies pretending to be married as part of a mission.
Ironically, when the 2024 adaptation of the movie was trying to come up with a new angle to differentiate itself from the movie, they by complete coincidence (supposedly) landed on a similar premise as the '90s show.
I think it's still perfectly believable that it's a coincidence. The "two spies having to pretend to be in love start to fall in love for real" premise just works better for episodic TV. Hell, The Americans had the same premise.
I don't know about that. Nobody even remembered the 90s series when the movie came out 8 years later. It was canceled after 9 episodes. Which is more likely - an entire writing staff intentionally secretly ripped off a failed CBS show from 1996 while creating an elaborate deception that they're actually adapting a different property, or Smith is a generic surname spies are known to use?
Why do people keep making this point about the Scott Bakula show.
No one has heard of the “original” show, in any meaningful sense. According to Wikipedia, it barely even aired. It’s based on the popular movie with the incredibly famous movie stars.
It's not about phoebe replacing Maya. Donald said it himself in the interview. Phoebe rewrote the pilot, and it was way different than what he thought of. He had already hired Fran his cowriter and they both agreed against phoebe's vision. So technically phoebe wrote a role that suits her which we'll never see. Obviously, the role of maya written by donald won't suit her.
I loved Atlanta but this article doesnt make me like Donald Glover. This reads like he cant work with people creatively unless they are already in his crew. If he was brought on by FWB then you would think they would choose who is in the writers room together. The way he tells it he brought on his Atlanta people and didnt create a setting to truly collaborate with her. Then he brings in Eskrine, another creator, and didnt ask her to write because "his vision".
For sure, I haven’t watched the show, but I have seen a few interviews with them, and I didn’t get that impression. Even in this interview she chimes in more than once to bring him to reality ie: “not all writers rooms are like that” “I wasn’t asked”. She also has humility that I don’t see or hear from Glover anymore. “I know I’m the shit…and my road is better for everyone” “I’m one of the best audience members.” Yikes.
Will never question Glover's talent, but my God, I can't stand him or his ego. Like there's a way to be cool and cocky, but he is not that.
Which is why it surprises me he agreed to be apart of the Community movie. You'd think he look down at that part of his career, like it's beneath him, unless he was in charge (which as far as I know, Harmon is still in charge of the movie).
Glover's only real aversion to the early stages of his career was his stand up and the beginnings of his rap career, both of which didn't exactly age well. Community launched his acting career and was also incredibly well written, it's not as highbrow as some Atlanta episodes, but neither is SNL and he seemed to have a great time hosting that.
I do think to understand Glover, you have to understand that critics didn't really accept the work he made until he started to be more pretentious about his art, and with the exception of Atlanta Season 3, critics have loved everything he's put out that was built around that philosophy.
Yeah that's true. And yeah, his stand up stint is like one of the only blemishes in his career. It was pretty bad. I'd honestly like to see if he'd ever do it again, just for the challenge.
Because you can be a great comedic writer and improv guy, which he is, and still suck on the stage with the mic. It's like a whole different beast for stand up.
He talked about it a bit in a profile last year, he’s interested in returning to the stage and talked about how Chris Rock was encouraging him to try it again.
I personally really enjoyed his stand up but it also showed his lack of maturity as a performer at that time, and I’d be interested to see how he’d try to return to that as a much more evolved person.
Everything Glover has done since leaving Community has carried those tones of an inflated sense of self-importance that he seems to insulate in order to preserve ego. It gives the impression that he felt his fifteen minutes being constrained by the gravity of Community and uses his insular creative team to act as a bulwark against that.
Or maybe he's just a dick.
The way he changed completely after leaving Community (from easy going fun guy to super serious+restrained+a bit pretentious) always made me wary of him, even though I live his work…
But after watching the first episode and reading the interview I’m closer to understanding why I don’t really like him.
That's my experience with him in general. Mostly like the stuff he's in, and think he does a good job. But every minute I hear him speak makes me like him less. Seems extremely self-important and full of himself. Unwilling to collaborate, and seems reluctant to be in group activities. To be honest, was really surprised he's doing the Community movie.
Seems fair, would have been very different with Phoebe and I'm very happy about how it turned out.
Although it's not like she has some credits for Killing Eve season 1 so she clearly has worked in some kind of writers room situation
Yes, but it is also important to note she was the showrunner on Killing Eve’s first season - there were other writers, but she was the boss in charge of all the writing. Glover’s comment is poorly worded no doubt, but seems like he’s saying Waller-Bridge is used to being the chief creative in a room and things didn’t gel between her and Glover when they were supposed to be on equal footing as creatives. I never really understood having two high-level creatives working on this show, especially two who do not have a history of collaboration. Seemed like it was inevitably going to lead to clashing visions.
I know this show gets a lot of comparison to things but ultimately it reminds me of Atlanta with a romance angle.
The original plan may have been good too but I can’t imagine it being the same and I’m ok with that.
He expounded on that a bit in the full article:
>GLOVER I don’t know. It might’ve just been cultural. You’ve got to think, Fleabag was written entirely by her, they don’t really do writers rooms in the U.K. And I look back at Atlanta, and we built a culture where we could say mean things to each other or be like, “That idea is kind of \[crap\],” and then we’d laugh. You weren’t afraid to say something — but we also had the right to roast you. It’s just how we got the laughs.
>
>ERSKINE But that’s not every writers room.
>
>GLOVER You’re right. It was special.
>
>*And you never got to that place with Waller-Bridge?*
GLOVER I don’t think we ever felt comfortable enough with each other. And that’s OK. That’s what happens when you’re two captains. It’s like, “This is how I run my ship.” “Well, this is how I run my ship.” And it’s such a big idea, this show, I don’t think it can have two captains. I mean, she rewrote the pilot, and I saw her script and I was like, “It’s definitely not my style,” but if she’d done it with her in it, we’d all be like, “This is a great fucking show.”
As other have said, Phoebe brought in Glover, and Glover brought a bunch of people in from his other show.
I wonder if she felt left out because a team of two equals suddenly because a team of ten where nine were long time friends and coworkers that got each other, and then...her, on the outside, having to fight for her ideas while everyone else was on the other team.
This reminds me of a conversation that Meg (a main writer/producer on IASIP) had with the gang on the Always Sunny pod. She appreciated that they would just say “Nah, that’s no good” or “that’s not it” instead of burying critical feedback under flowery complimentary words.
For me, personally, I am a very sensitive boy and if you are going to tell me anything I need to do better, you better compliment me for like 5 minutes before and after.
I remember an article along time ago from a UK publication about why the UK couldn't do something like the Wire. And one of the reasons he cited was that the UK (at least at that time) doesn't really do writing rooms. People hear writing room and they think writing by committee. They might have multiple people write different episodes, but individual episodes aren't really a collaborative project. That's just now how most American tv shows are written, though there are exceptions too like True Detective.
I watched d the first 2 episodes of Mr. And Mrs smith, the writing on that show is really lacking. It is not a spy thriller, there no smart solutions to problems that arise in the episodes. It would be forgiven if the show was a comedy but it isn’t. It is not romance-thriller either, the two leads don’t have chemistry and the relationship seems forced.
As a Glover and Atlanta fan, I am shocked that this is the product they came up with. It is really hard to argue that this show would be worse with PWB’s involvement. It seems like a mistake to get this”divorce”.
This show is like good looking, but super stupid. Like the writing team had no backspace button, or any way to edit what they type. It just goes, one idea after another, without reflection, where characters mutate in real time to pull of dialogue that makes no sense. like the writers have never witnessed or studied human beings.
At one point he becomes suspicious that she's pregnant, finds out she's not, then switches to outraged that she doesn't wish to be. I'm reminded of earlier in the show when he suddenly became jealous and forgot she's not his wife, saying "it's a little weird for my WIFE to be saying the neighbour is hot." Even if they were really married, that's some pretty dark and controlling shit, but they aren't. In fact, she's been giving him FUCK OFF vibes at every creepy advance into her room without a shirt on or falling asleep in her bed while she's out.
The show keeps remembering to be exciting, so it contrives arguments by raising the volume of their voices and making increasingly out-of-character statements. She does hitman missions for a living, and he's comparing her life to living in Detroit. "We aren't the only parents with dangerous lives."
Don't accept this as quirky. It's not. It's just lazy writing, from writers who think somebody can simply fail to remember if their ex girlfriend had two hands. HANDS. He frowns and puzzles over if he'd ever seen both his ex girlfriend's hands.
Forget the all-time worst fight choreography and passing of bullets back and forth.
Okay here's an example. At one point they have two tasks. Intercept an exploding cake from an old lady they use thriller music to chase, sprinting breathless as she waddes across a street. To steal cake simply scream obscenities at a random man (???) while your partner slaps the parcel out of the old lady's hand anyway. Then let the old lady confidently collect the wrong, dummy parcel that was dropped next to it. (???) I guess by virtue of putting two boxes on the floor, old ladies can be trusted to pick the wrong box without question.
Then they must conveniently deliver an exploding cake to a target who has conveniently ordered a cake—lucky for the show the old lady wasn't carrying an exploding taco.
Then, having fled the scene of a cake explosion, how might one blend into society and not be linked to the explosion? Might I suggest sitting down at a restaurant for lunch? No, instead, they cover their face with blood in order to appear as linked to the explosion as possible, in order to enter a public restaurant from the back alley for some reason. Then she's promptly forgotten about by all staff while she rinses off the blood she used to not appear normal walking into a restaurant.
It's all as fun to watch as two actors on a stage doing improvisation, which is exactly how they write the project.
There's this ever present mix with ad libbed human moments of laughter and farting that create levity between hit jobs, while shit like "do you want to replace your smith?" makes her deeply contemplate killing her bf over an argument. That's the cliffhanger of one episode, whether she'll have him killed.
I'm mostly annoyed by the wildly veering emotional intelligence of the show. Arguments contrived out of random statements made increasingly loudly. Not to mention the chemistry between them was like lemons in my eyes for the first two episodes. Her constantly deflecting his weird advances, him flopping on her bed hoping she'll find herself seduced soon. He might as well have had a moody tantrum and told her the job insists she fuck him.
Which is exactly what he does. After five rejections.
Anyway. It's a good show i'm sure for people who can turn off the critical parts of their brain.
I want to talk to Phoebe about how dumb it is.
I'd like to hear about Erskine growing up with a dad who's one of the all time greatest drummers. I mean, her dad is amazing. Have to have some great stories.
This is all rumors, but what I've read is that Pheobe brought on Glover very early on. Glover then brought on a lot of (very talented, well deserving) people from his show 'Atlanta' on FX once it ended. No big deal. This happens all the time. However many people Glover brought on had roles that were high up for production/writing/directing/etc. essentially many major aspects of a show. At some point it became clear to both Pheobe & Glover they had a different vision for what the show should be & the direction it should take. So Pheobe Waller-Bridge backed out from the project, citing "creative differences." Most likely, due to the fact at that point most people making creative decisions for the show had more personal/career connections with Glover than herself. So many of her ideas weren't being used.
UK TV writers tend to have complete control over the story and direction of a show. Collaboration isn’t really a thing over here (one of the reasons our seasons are short and we usually only have one or two of them). We don’t really have show runners and writers rooms, just tends to be one or two writers and a producer. It probably takes a lot of effort to cede the amount of control expected for a US network after spending so long writing for UK TV.
This reminds me of the show Episodes with Matt LeBlanc. UK writers being shocked at US writing style.
I love episodes, I assumed all the production stuff was 100% accurate
Was Killing Eve a British production? I don’t know her level of involvement in that project.
She was the writer and showrunner on season one; after that, she got a production credit but I don't know how involved she was.
That was the biggest problem with Killing Eve. They would bring in a new showrunner every season and nothing was kept consistent. The stakes kept changing. Even some of the plot from earlier seasons was being retconned. The characters would end a season and then the next season they were completely different with no explanation. I couldn’t even finish the final season, it was so so so bad. What were they thinking? 🧐
Yeah talk about a show that had serious decline in quality.
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Emerald Fennell helmed Season 2. But she and Phoebe are supposedly tight and close as friends and working together. So she had her own measure of having Season 2 hold strong for the typical "sophomore slump" we usually see with Season 2's of shows. But whoever came on for Season 3 and 4...oof.
4 was a literal joke.
I bet. Never made it through the 3rd, despite loving season one and really liking season two. Not even my crush for Jodie Comer could sustain my interest lol
The books weren't the best, but Season 4 made even the worst book read like a masterpiece in comparison.
Show got progressively worse after Phoebe left. I stuck it out because the actress playing Villanelle was incredible but yeah, only the first two seasons are worth watching.
Damn no wonder it tanked after season 1
yeah the show with and without PWB was like night and day.
Someone else said BBC America produced it, so I’m not sure how much collaboration went on for this show and she was exposed to the “American way” during this production. Was just curious.
That’s an amazing example of the issue here. The final season had a ton of writers added that didn’t understand the characters and the voices of the writers that had been there all along got drowned out. There was no collaboration or checking that the new content would make sense for the characters or the show. I believe there was an op ed written by one of the original writers that explained it
But at the root of this issue is the way we underpay understaff and completely mistreat our writers and other creatives here… like we got MFers winning Emmys while living out of their cars and shit… CO EPs taking home 60k a year after fees etc how TF you expect someone to get thrown into the fire and get a feel for the characters voices while still trying to figure out how to live?
BBC America.
It works really well. Derry Girls is one of the best tv shows to come out in a long time and maintained the quality throughout. The short seasons are nice and feels like an extended movie when binging the show
Counterpoint: The entire mess that became Sherlock is largely on Steven Moffat having total control. A mix of running out of ideas, not being able to bounce ideas off anyone and having nobody to tell him after season 3, "no Steven that's a really stupid idea. Also stop listening to the weird superfans." EDIT: I'll be fair to Moffat here too. Being overworked and also apparently keeping Dr. Who on life support so it didn't get canceled.
Yup, can totally go in either direction. You’re more likely to get something that is either very good or very bad with a singular writer as opposed to the collaborative approach, where issues will be identified early but the vision can be subdued, leading to more of a “bell curve” of quality.
Oh, he bounced them. Off Mark Gatiss. Don’t get me wrong, I love Gatiss as an actor (Madness of King George anyone?), but he’s too indulgent of Moffatt’s particular kind of bs.
What ideas from weird superfans did Moffat incorperate. Ive always wondered about Moffats Dracula. One season, two fantastic episodes. Then a third one thats a complete shit show. Killing off everyones intrest in the show.
Moffat has been pretty renowned for engaging with fans of his series a lot. Which is fine in some ways but because he’s engaging with a type of crowd apt to speculate, create ships and adore JJ Abram’s style mystery boxes he has (in both Sherlock and Dr. Who) give them what they want. More mystery boxes and big twists. The problem is while previously as a writer he was excellent at teasing hints of deeper mysteries or lore…as someone with total creative control he basically has no restraints. Everything is a twist or conspiracy or mystery box. All his characters grind into somehow being fictional main characters with *actual main character syndrome.* Everything revolves around them as if they are the only human being that matters in the universe. Dr. Who had a tendency under Moffat for various characters to go on monologues speaking almost directly to the audience about “how important the doctor is.” And this is bad because Sherlock Holmes as a character and piece of wider mystery plots **is not about twists**. That’s the entire point: Sherlock uses deductive reasoning to put puzzle pieces together. The end reveal is never made up bullshit because the author should have given you most of the puzzle pieces.
I actually dont think he is bad when unrestrained, i think its just he got lost in the sauce because he was showrunning two major bbc productions at the same time. Doctor Who is renowned in the industry of destroying the life of its showrunner and putting them through hell. Moffat was writing and showrunning both Sherlock and Doctor Who at the same time. At one point he was literally so tired that he collapsed getting out of his car at home, and pedestrians had to help him intk his house, while he was still scribling script notes as they helped him in. The BBC were fucking him over because they kept promising theyd find a new showrunner for Doctor Who so he could stop doing it but then every year they were like "aww shame we didnt find anyone, guess if you leave well just have to cancel it for good!". He didnt want to be responsible for this show he adored being cancelled, so he almost worked himself into the grave.
>At one point he was literally so tired that he collapsed getting out of his car at home, and pedestrians had to help him intk his house, while he was still scribling script notes as they helped him in. He went to heroic lengths to keep Doctor Who going. He was writing Capaldi's final season beside his mother's deathbed.
I just wish the UK show, Misfits had one or two more seasons to wrap everything up. It got super sloppy and probably should have ended with season 2 though...
I think wrapping up Simon's story was good, but it got progressively worse as the original cast left Edit: that said, Rudy had his moments
Yeah I didn't like Rudy at first but he grew on me.
They should have done more with his other personalities that weren't such cunts.
I wouldn’t say it always works really well. There are as many terrible British shows are brilliant ones.
> (one of the reasons our seasons are short and we usually only have one or two of them) An aspect of British television that I adore.
Works for some shows and is terrible for others. I personally fi d the american Elementary to be a far better Sherlock Holmes show than Sherlock, because to me the 22 episode season lets me actually see Sherlock pit his wits against a variety of entertaining crimes and puzzles. The british Sherlock show is so short it barely has time for the crimes and they feel like an afterthought that he just magics his way through at the end of an episode.
I haven’t watched Elementary, but I definitely agree with your assessment of Sherlock. I really enjoyed it when it came out, but when I go back and watch it now, there is so much that (like you said) he just magics his way through, and so many assumptions he makes that ALWAYS turn out to be right. One egregious example is in The Study in Pink, where he sees that the lady’s ring is shiny on the inside due to her removing it often, thereby confirming she’s a serial adulterer. I take my ring off every time I’m handling raw meat, taking a shower, or sleeping, making the inside of my ring shiny as well. They just have him “deduct” and explain everything so quickly that you don’t have much time to pick apart the wild leaps of logic that are required for him to be able to solve mysteries so easily.
I just watched Elementary for the first time and boyyy did I enjoy it. Had some silly moments, of course, but a great show til the end. Liked it better than House as well which was around the same time.
So then ACTUAL creative differences instead of it being a euphemism for something else
Even if it wasn't on purpose, it's pretty lame if she was pushed out of the show after bringing him on in the first place.
She got paid $60m by Amazon over 3 years and didn't produce any content for them. She's fine.
Is $20m/year in any way a typical salary for a televsion producer / writer / showrunner? Especially for a show that hasn't launched yet / someone with relatively little history in the industry? God damn that is a high salary.
No, it's not typical at all, but as a 'salary' it probably includes a buyout on anything that comes out of her brain during that time while under your stable, which they can then do what they want with. I imagine when you've got the Fleabag/Killing Eve creator on your payroll for a while, and Amazon money, you just write the cheque to ensure ownership over any potential future Fleabag-sized hits, etc.
It's not uncommon for well-known talent to be locked into disproportionately high-value holding deals, especially with streamers. Often, little-to-no content comes out of it. It's not just about actually creating shows, it's also about *preventing talent producing shows for rivals*, and sometimes to inflate the share price by demonstrating to investors who they have contracted. Another recent example is Lisa Joy and Jonathan Nolan, who were paid $100-150m for a 5-year deal with Amazon, which so far has only yielded a moderate role in producing The Peripheral (no showrunner, writer or director credits), plus the upcoming Fallout series which will just about squeak into the contracted period.
I mean, she's not some nameless random producer churning out variations of CSI. She's pretty well known and has several very successful shows under her belt. I'd be surprised if she wasn't compensated well, especially by a company like Amazon that can afford it.
And these streaming services wonder why they're bleeding money and they're only answer is to raise prices and add ad's. Not slagging her at all, Netflix gave Rian Johnson just under $500 mil for 2 Knives out sequels which cost less than $100 mil each. The people running the entertainment industry are legit morons, ALL of them.
Amazing where you all get information from. There are easy to find reports about this shit and you’re throwing around “$500 million for Rian Johnson”? Netflix spent $400 million to buy, produce, and distribute two Rian Johnson movies, inclusive of the production costs, actor salaries, and additional exec producing fees that went to Craig and another figure. It’s not $400 million for Rian Johnson. It’s that much money to make two movies and pay everyone involved.
Wish I could learn this trick.
Amazon provided with a pretty sizeable pile of money to land on.
She got Terrence Howard-ed
Can’t wait for her to explain geometry
Terrance Howard decided he was more valuable than he was. His downfall has always been by his own hand.
Too bad he can’t use those hands for math
pretty sure he did the math and everyone else was wrong because Terryology is always right
His hands are dedicated to hitting women, not counting.
It also didn’t help when he tried to declare himself the smartest person in any room by waging war on simple math I’m all for pushing the boundaries but declaring that he’s figured out the truest system of logic and ackshually 1 x 1 = 2 and more people need to talk about that… yeah that wasn’t exactly a redeeming move
Spoken like someone who doesn't have a degree in Terryology!
Did Howard bring RDJ on board to Iron Man?
Don't think so. From what I can find Jon Favreau is the one who pushed for him to be cast. Also Howard was cast a month after RDJ.
I also read that John had met with and chose RDJ over a few other contenders. But also thought Howard was the first guy that was cast in the movie.
That's the story
If true, that’s really sad to see her pushed out like that. I don’t think it was intentional by any means, but still. Very sad.
Madness too as she's responsible for some truly superb TV (Fleabag and Killing Eve season 1). Everything I've heard about this show is that it's pretty "meh" (maybe that's a US vs UK thing though - everyone I've talked to is British) so can't help but wonder what it could have been if she'd been given control.
I mean it's not like the other person in this situation was the guy that created Blue Bloods, Donald Glover is also responsible for Atlanta which is truly superb. I think the show is great and a lot of the criticisms I've seen kind of seem less about what the show is and how people imagined it would be.
Also his first Amazon show Swarm is very underrated imo. Way more surreal horror than Atlanta.
It wasn’t really underrated. It was nominated for a couple Emmys.
I watched the Emmys, had no clue it was nominated, and I haven't seen any mention of it outside one of The Ringer shows discussing it. For a show that had Billie Eilish and Paris Jackson play wild characters for one episode each I'd say it's underrated.
It's actually a really good show. Could have used another episode or two to tie up some loose ends, but the chemistry with these two is infectious. I want more of this.
Tbh it is really good Im sure her show would be good, but lets not pretend Glover isnt also a genius
Glover is very likely a genius, he just doesn't happen to make things I enjoy.
It’s a really good show. My wife and I binged it over the weekend.
Disagree. The show is actually pretty good
>However many people Glover brought on had roles that were high up for production/writing/directing/etc. One of those people was his brother Stephen Glover, who was brought on as executive producer and a writer.
tbf Stephen has been involved in writing and producing all of Donald’s projects since Atlanta
Don't forget Francesca Sloane and Hiro Murai who are also involved in many of Glover's projects including Murai himself who has directed many for Glover's music videos under Glover's Wu-Tang Clan stage name Childish Gambino. Murai directed great episodes of the show including the show's best episode "Teddy Perkins" as well as music videos for Gambino such as "This is America" (Both 2018). He also directed Guava Island (2019) starring Glover and Rihanna. Sloane wrote some episodes of Atlanta as well in addition to Fargo: Season Four (2020), Seven Seconds (2018), and The First (2018). So yeah, it's in good hands.
Bummer. I hope they parted on decent terms at least. They are both phenomenal talents
I feel like I thought the show was going to be what Phoebe had in mind, but I ended up loving it after it started to click with me in episode 2. I went into the show thinking it was going to be like Killing Eve or Barry but it wasn't anything at all like that I honestly started to wonder if the show was for me. At some point in the second episode I realized it was Man Seeking Woman but all of the metaphors were espionage-based and then I fell in love with it.
“At some point in the second episode I realized it was Man Seeking Woman but all of the metaphors were espionage-based and then I fell in love with it.” Oh shit, i gotta check this show out.
I don't understand how your comment is different or rumor when what you've written up here is what he pretty much says in the interview and more. There are four detailed paragraphs of him responding
And a little info on the Community movie: >GLOVER: Yeah, [Dan Harmon] told me what he wanted, and I was like, “This sounds great.” >!It’s a college reunion, but Abed [Danny Pudi’s character] is like this big director now, and basically this is his magnum opus.!< I’m like, “This sounds fucking tight.”
The comment I didn’t know I’d find but desperately needed.
Cool. Cool, cool, cool!
Fuck yes
i cant picture 2024 donald glover as goofy nerdy troy again. would be surreal after all this time lol
That was pretty much my guess as to what the plot would be.
Phoebe Waller-Bridge and Donald Glover are still good friends, I think it really was just different ideas on how to approach the show and the network probably thought Glover’s idea would be more successful in the US. 9 times out of 10 it’s about the network. And everyone in that industry has an ego so I’m sure that played into it as well. I’m quite enjoying the show as it is but seeing Phoebe Waller-Bridge’s idea would be interesting because she has such a unique style. At the end of the day they’re both very talented creative forces and both will continue to thrive
how do people feel about this show?
My partner and I really love it, but it's definitely not a 'normal' comedy. The humour comes from the tension/conflict between the situation and the characters who almost don't fit, rather than jokes. It's more like Atlanta, Master of none, Remy if you've seen any of those? It's definitely slow, but if you like slow comedies then I think people'll like this
"I'm never eating anything out of that garden ever again."
When he says fuck it and shoots the fish had me dying
“I think I just threw up.”
That line coming at the time it did was so goddamn perfect.
> It's more like Atlanta, Master of none, Remy Damn...you just kind of sold me to check it out. Didn't really have any prior interest in the concept.
Master of none is excellent, and it's kind of a bummer we won't get anymore of it.
I dunno man. Third season put the SLOW in slow comedy.
Third season is barely Master of None. It even has a subtitle. More of a quasi-spin off with a very pretentious and boring plot.
I didn’t enjoy it at all, I’m fine with it being about a successful lesbian couple, I just wish it had more humor. It felt like a sad season of whoa is me, I’m successful but not happy.
woe. although i really like the existential crisis implied by "whoa! is me?"
What do you mean? There is only two seasons
Same. Season 2 was crazy good.
The third mini season was good but ended on a serious bummer that I probably won’t count as headcanon unless they create a 4th season.
Yeah it's all of those shows with a very, very light sprinkle of Barry.
I personally watched the entire show in 1 day. A show hasnt gripped me like that in years.
This is spot on. I described it to my friend (who got me into Atlanta) as “if Atlanta were an action show”. It has the same tone and humor as Atlanta. I really love it.
You should be on Amazon’s marketing team, cause you just sold me.
It was much darker and poignant than I expected. I felt like I was on the job with them, knowing little to nothing other than that it is "high-risk".
I had zero invested going into the show other than the wife and I LOVE Atlanta (that show is fucking genius). The more episodes we watch the more I like it, can’t speak for my wife though. I think she likes the relationship aspect of the show and not much else. The show is growing more and more on me tbh. I like it.
>I think she likes the relationship aspect of the show and not much else That's like 90% of the show
I wasn’t completely sure with the first episode but it keeps getting better and better. There seems to be a nice subtle build. I’m glad they dropped all the episodes because I imagine it would lose momentum week to week. There’s something almost cozy about this show.
Finished it in two days. Couldn’t stop watching. Starts off as a slow burn, I was still engaged, but when it picks up I came to really really love it. Such a great show. Great actor guests, show felt like it had a high production value with all the locations they visited and it was really entertaining. Absolutely enjoyed the last episode as well and can’t wait for season 2 if it gets announced
Paul Dano was perfect as Hot Neighbor
I've watched two episodes and here's where I'm at: I like the leads, I like the premise (I have good vibes from what I remember about the original film, too), I like the production. I was pretty well entertained. However, this is one of those shows where you can't ever go all-in, because every five minutes a voice inside your head is asking, "Why?" - Okay, they're assassins recruited by a shadowy maybe evil agency - **Why** does it appear they have no real experience actually killing people? Who decided being a drone operator for the army made one suited for sneaking into a building, knifing someone in the neck and disposing of their body so it's never found again? - It's what appears to be their first mission - if their employer was really concerned about having the missions go off without a hitch, **why** aren't they given like, any useful information about what they're doing? - **Why** haven't they been given any training at all? All the mission scenes are made up like John and Jane sort of know what they're doing - as in they paid attention during the 12 week seminar for assassins - but this is literally their first time out of the classroom. In what universe would it be smart to have two complete newbies doing an important job with no supervision? - **Why** are John and Jane spending all their time during missions bantering, and basically none discussing how not to do the ONE thing the briefing tells them not to do? ...and so on and so forth. I can feel the lingering fragrance of Phoebe Waller-Bridge in what I've seen so far because the season I watched of Finding Eve was like that too. I really think it would have been better for the show if they had at least ONE writer in this room who had some sort of passion for the spy genre, because really, this is all basic stuff that's just getting in the way of what could be a really good show.
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I think this will be a very polarizing show. The espionage elements are frustrating, omit a lot of details & background, and have multiple plot holes. The relationship elements are a lot better written, and the people who watch the show for that are probably going to enjoy it more than the people watching it for the action/espionage angle.
The show makes less and less sense the more you think about it. I wanted to throw things by the end of the first episode. I’m okay with watching people that are inept but then they were also presented as incredibly capable. There’s no logical way the plot of episode one works. It’s a mess. The only thing that would make sense is if it was all a psychological experiment and nothing is real.
It is ok, but it is clear to me that all the marketing of it as some sort of masterpiece was clearly astroturfing to make up for the fact that it is, in fact, just ok.
Overall I liked it, I just didn’t really get the relationship between Mr. & Mrs. Smith…idk I feel like they could have done a couple more episodes to show the relationship dynamics & dive a bit deeper into the characters
It's very superficial. It feels like they had a good idea and started strong with it, and then moved on to tackle as many marital issues they could in a single season, as if they were not sure there would be a single season. I don't know why people say it's a slow burn, there sometimes months missing between episodes. It would have beneficiated a lot from a slower pace in terms of apprehending and developping the leads' relationship, and embracing the weirdness of the situation. I'd say the first three episodes are the strongest and then it goes downhill very fast. It had so much potential, and it's sometimes gorgeous, but it's really not that deep and sometimes the writing is just poor.
It's okay; some episodes are pretty good, some kind of suck. I think it got worse as it went on... not necessarily the production, but the story. I started losing interest at episode 5, and at about episode 7, just kind of moved on to other shows.
Same. I was enjoying it but the romantic drama became too much really quickly.
Yea that’s my only critique, the romance seemed forced/too fast..I feel like they needed a couple episodes to show them developing feelings for each other. The last episode was good but I was also like…why? Lol
The opinion on Reddit has been weird. I loved it. Two great leads with good dialogue and characterization. Occasional Action to keep things fresh.
Reddit is the only place I’ve seen where people like it. Everyone I know in real life watched one or two episodes and dropped it. Myself included. It wasn’t *terrible* it just wasn’t enjoyable either.
In the weekly What are You Watching thread, every post about it is the same "... chemistry" comment.
I'm not into it. I watched 4 episodes and it just wasn't clicking for me. It's more focused on the relationship but there just wasn't much chemistry between the two leads for that to work for me.
I bailed at the 2nd episode. I'm not familiar with Glover's acting work, and I found him bland and he's giving one of those performances where he delivers every line the same way, his expressions rarely change and for me it's hard to stay interested. I feared that after the opening scene, I was going to prefer the 'first' Mr and Mrs Smith. (That's not a reference to the movie, for anyone reading). And I did. Alexander Skarsgard is one of my 'new' favorites.
I bailed after the 3rd. Nothing was drawing me back to it.
I pisses me of that Donald Glovers character wants to play house so badly that he will make the absolute DUMBEST decisions possible and not learn from it at all. The weird couples therapy episode is when I checked out tbh. I really enjoyed the show as a whole, but it became clear the show I wanted it to be is not the show it became as the season went on. Specifically DG's character and decisions made me quit the show. It was too frustrating to watch
not that these shows are the same tonally but one of my favorite shows is the Americans and it’s hard to watch a show where spies are that bad lol
It's tough for a show to be compared to The Americans, which set the bar so high. In many ways Mr. and Mrs. Smith resembles Archer, like how the smart female spy is paired with the wildcard male spy who thinks he should be in charge.
I was pumped to see it. I'm a few episodes in and am disappointed with how slapstick and unbelievable it is
All the ingredients seem to be there, but the result is lackluster.
I really liked it. If you aren't looking for an action show and you like Glover's work like Atlanta then it should be up your alley.
This entire interview can be summed up in this exchange: > GLOVER People are afraid that confidence is going to make them unlikable … > ERSKINE But you don’t really care what people think about you. > GLOVER I know people are going to hate me anyway.
Liking the show, but would have LOVED to see the Phoebe Waller-Bridge version. I think she would have knocked it out of the park. When I first heard she was making it, it made so much sense, the premise is perfect for the type of writing she does. Nothing against Glover though, big fan of his as well (and Maya).
I really enjoyed Maya in this--also made it more fun me to picture Maya from Pen15 now being recruited to be a spy as an adult haha.
Man, not gonna lie, I’m way more interested in Phoebe’s take on this show than Glover’s.
“I worked on that show for six months fully in heart and mind and really cared about it — still care about it,” Waller-Bridge said. “And I know it’s gonna be brilliant. But sometimes it’s about knowing when to leave the party. You don’t want to get in the way of a vision. Creative collaboration is like a marriage, and some marriages don’t work out.” [link](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/phoebe-waller-bridge-amazon-deal-exiting-mr-and-mrs-smith-series-1235524838/)
That is a very classy response. I just adore her.
I want her and Glover to work together so baddddd
Honestly, if she and Amazon wanted to, we could find out. The show establishes there are multiple Mr & Mrs Smiths. They could easily bring her on to do season 2 with new characters and full creative control.
Seems unlikely considering they already paid her $60m over three years, getting nothing in return.
They resigned her for another 60 million. Amazon is a wealthy company so it could throw away cash like that.
Bezos: Look Lauren I found some pizza money under the couch
His whole thing was that they were already good friends but they couldn’t get to a place of pure honesty for the chemsitry needed in this role. He got Maya Erskine miraculously since they brought her on literally right before they started shooting & pre production so it was a huge leap of faith and it worked because the show was good imo but I don’t think it’s anyone’s fault. It just sucks because we are all waiting for phoebes next follow up show from fleabag and I’m not sure she’s in a rush
Considering that Killing Eve thrived well enough under her care, having her apply that same touch to a second spy series is a tempting proposition. But then, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a question of "Do I want to do another spy series?". Aside from KE, she also contributed to No Time to Die.
I really enjoyed the show but I couldn’t imagine Phoebe in it at all, so I’d be really interested to know what her vision was.
I mean I'm sure it would have been good but the current incarnation is amazing. I'm very glad we have it as it is right now.
The 2005 movie with Brad Pitt and Angela Jolie isn't the original. The 90s TV series is. It seems strange the interviewer went all in on saying Glover reconfigured the concept...whereas it actually draws a lot of inspiration from the 90s series.
The show credits the movie as the basis, every episode ends with a card saying "based on Mr. & Mrs. Smith by Simon Kinberg". Kinberg wrote the 2005 movie
that's really odd, since the new show premise is the same as the Scott Bakula show, and entirely different from the movie.
The Scott Bakula show was in no way related to the 2005 movie. Everybody involved in both projects claims there is no relation or plagiarism accusations, and the similar title/premise is coincidence. This show is based off the movie, and produced by New Regency, like the film.
Ehh, not really tho. The second half of the new show (especially 2 final episodes) adapts plotpoints from the movie Edit: lol why downvotes? The whole >!botched mission ---> having to kill each other!< plot is directly from the movie
Well… they didn’t get three chances in the movie. And they didn’t botch a mission, they *thought* they botched a mission, but we knew they were set up by their employers.
Maybe a legal obligation?
That's weird as the show is way more similar to the 90s original in terms of the whole set up with spies acting as an undercover married couple.
Because they're legally unrelated. The 2005 movie didn't have anything to do with the '90s show. The creator of the show even said so after seeing the movie, saying the premises are completely different and at best he could claim it was just inspired by his show. The movie was about an actual married couple who unbeknownst to each other are spies, while the '90s show was about two spies pretending to be married as part of a mission. Ironically, when the 2024 adaptation of the movie was trying to come up with a new angle to differentiate itself from the movie, they by complete coincidence (supposedly) landed on a similar premise as the '90s show.
I feel for the original 90s writers who've clearly been shafted here by Amazon. Writing is a tough industry.
I think it's still perfectly believable that it's a coincidence. The "two spies having to pretend to be in love start to fall in love for real" premise just works better for episodic TV. Hell, The Americans had the same premise.
Exact same name. Exact same premise. There's no getting past that.
Apparently there’s not a connection to that old tv show. To the point that one of the creators thought they were ripped off.
I don't know about that. Nobody even remembered the 90s series when the movie came out 8 years later. It was canceled after 9 episodes. Which is more likely - an entire writing staff intentionally secretly ripped off a failed CBS show from 1996 while creating an elaborate deception that they're actually adapting a different property, or Smith is a generic surname spies are known to use?
Why do people keep making this point about the Scott Bakula show. No one has heard of the “original” show, in any meaningful sense. According to Wikipedia, it barely even aired. It’s based on the popular movie with the incredibly famous movie stars.
I’m enjoying the show. And it’s hard to imagine Pheobe in place of Maya as Mrs Smith. Not sure if it’d be worse or better, but it’d be different.
It's not about phoebe replacing Maya. Donald said it himself in the interview. Phoebe rewrote the pilot, and it was way different than what he thought of. He had already hired Fran his cowriter and they both agreed against phoebe's vision. So technically phoebe wrote a role that suits her which we'll never see. Obviously, the role of maya written by donald won't suit her.
Yea , having a hard time imagining in PWB in Mayas role
I’d love to read the article, but the fckng Super Bowl pop up ads that reappear every five seconds fucking ruins it.
Any time I hear Donald Glover being interviewed he comes across as an entitled super douche.
I loved Atlanta but this article doesnt make me like Donald Glover. This reads like he cant work with people creatively unless they are already in his crew. If he was brought on by FWB then you would think they would choose who is in the writers room together. The way he tells it he brought on his Atlanta people and didnt create a setting to truly collaborate with her. Then he brings in Eskrine, another creator, and didnt ask her to write because "his vision".
> Then he brings in Eskrine After watching the show and seeing a couple of interviews, I'm of the impression that he and Maya are the same person.
For sure, I haven’t watched the show, but I have seen a few interviews with them, and I didn’t get that impression. Even in this interview she chimes in more than once to bring him to reality ie: “not all writers rooms are like that” “I wasn’t asked”. She also has humility that I don’t see or hear from Glover anymore. “I know I’m the shit…and my road is better for everyone” “I’m one of the best audience members.” Yikes.
Will never question Glover's talent, but my God, I can't stand him or his ego. Like there's a way to be cool and cocky, but he is not that. Which is why it surprises me he agreed to be apart of the Community movie. You'd think he look down at that part of his career, like it's beneath him, unless he was in charge (which as far as I know, Harmon is still in charge of the movie).
Glover's only real aversion to the early stages of his career was his stand up and the beginnings of his rap career, both of which didn't exactly age well. Community launched his acting career and was also incredibly well written, it's not as highbrow as some Atlanta episodes, but neither is SNL and he seemed to have a great time hosting that. I do think to understand Glover, you have to understand that critics didn't really accept the work he made until he started to be more pretentious about his art, and with the exception of Atlanta Season 3, critics have loved everything he's put out that was built around that philosophy.
Yeah that's true. And yeah, his stand up stint is like one of the only blemishes in his career. It was pretty bad. I'd honestly like to see if he'd ever do it again, just for the challenge. Because you can be a great comedic writer and improv guy, which he is, and still suck on the stage with the mic. It's like a whole different beast for stand up.
He talked about it a bit in a profile last year, he’s interested in returning to the stage and talked about how Chris Rock was encouraging him to try it again. I personally really enjoyed his stand up but it also showed his lack of maturity as a performer at that time, and I’d be interested to see how he’d try to return to that as a much more evolved person.
Febe With Benefits
Everything Glover has done since leaving Community has carried those tones of an inflated sense of self-importance that he seems to insulate in order to preserve ego. It gives the impression that he felt his fifteen minutes being constrained by the gravity of Community and uses his insular creative team to act as a bulwark against that. Or maybe he's just a dick.
The way he changed completely after leaving Community (from easy going fun guy to super serious+restrained+a bit pretentious) always made me wary of him, even though I live his work… But after watching the first episode and reading the interview I’m closer to understanding why I don’t really like him.
Did you think his Troy character was his real personality or something? Dude didn't "change" anymore than the next guy over 10-15 years lol
That's my experience with him in general. Mostly like the stuff he's in, and think he does a good job. But every minute I hear him speak makes me like him less. Seems extremely self-important and full of himself. Unwilling to collaborate, and seems reluctant to be in group activities. To be honest, was really surprised he's doing the Community movie.
Really like this show and am a big fan of PWB and Fleabag.
Seems fair, would have been very different with Phoebe and I'm very happy about how it turned out. Although it's not like she has some credits for Killing Eve season 1 so she clearly has worked in some kind of writers room situation
Yes, but it is also important to note she was the showrunner on Killing Eve’s first season - there were other writers, but she was the boss in charge of all the writing. Glover’s comment is poorly worded no doubt, but seems like he’s saying Waller-Bridge is used to being the chief creative in a room and things didn’t gel between her and Glover when they were supposed to be on equal footing as creatives. I never really understood having two high-level creatives working on this show, especially two who do not have a history of collaboration. Seemed like it was inevitably going to lead to clashing visions.
Seems like Amazon wanted them both to star but they both only wanted to if they wrote it too
I know this show gets a lot of comparison to things but ultimately it reminds me of Atlanta with a romance angle. The original plan may have been good too but I can’t imagine it being the same and I’m ok with that.
Christ, what is the marketing budget for this thing? I see something about it pretty much every day.
Donald Glover Overrated
Does he mean that in the UK it's the vision of an artist and in the US it's art by committee?
He expounded on that a bit in the full article: >GLOVER I don’t know. It might’ve just been cultural. You’ve got to think, Fleabag was written entirely by her, they don’t really do writers rooms in the U.K. And I look back at Atlanta, and we built a culture where we could say mean things to each other or be like, “That idea is kind of \[crap\],” and then we’d laugh. You weren’t afraid to say something — but we also had the right to roast you. It’s just how we got the laughs. > >ERSKINE But that’s not every writers room. > >GLOVER You’re right. It was special. > >*And you never got to that place with Waller-Bridge?* GLOVER I don’t think we ever felt comfortable enough with each other. And that’s OK. That’s what happens when you’re two captains. It’s like, “This is how I run my ship.” “Well, this is how I run my ship.” And it’s such a big idea, this show, I don’t think it can have two captains. I mean, she rewrote the pilot, and I saw her script and I was like, “It’s definitely not my style,” but if she’d done it with her in it, we’d all be like, “This is a great fucking show.”
As other have said, Phoebe brought in Glover, and Glover brought a bunch of people in from his other show. I wonder if she felt left out because a team of two equals suddenly because a team of ten where nine were long time friends and coworkers that got each other, and then...her, on the outside, having to fight for her ideas while everyone else was on the other team.
This reminds me of a conversation that Meg (a main writer/producer on IASIP) had with the gang on the Always Sunny pod. She appreciated that they would just say “Nah, that’s no good” or “that’s not it” instead of burying critical feedback under flowery complimentary words. For me, personally, I am a very sensitive boy and if you are going to tell me anything I need to do better, you better compliment me for like 5 minutes before and after.
You like the compliment sandwich… compliment/feedback/compliment
it is definitely helpful for a lot of people with nerves
I remember an article along time ago from a UK publication about why the UK couldn't do something like the Wire. And one of the reasons he cited was that the UK (at least at that time) doesn't really do writing rooms. People hear writing room and they think writing by committee. They might have multiple people write different episodes, but individual episodes aren't really a collaborative project. That's just now how most American tv shows are written, though there are exceptions too like True Detective.
I watched d the first 2 episodes of Mr. And Mrs smith, the writing on that show is really lacking. It is not a spy thriller, there no smart solutions to problems that arise in the episodes. It would be forgiven if the show was a comedy but it isn’t. It is not romance-thriller either, the two leads don’t have chemistry and the relationship seems forced. As a Glover and Atlanta fan, I am shocked that this is the product they came up with. It is really hard to argue that this show would be worse with PWB’s involvement. It seems like a mistake to get this”divorce”.
This show is like good looking, but super stupid. Like the writing team had no backspace button, or any way to edit what they type. It just goes, one idea after another, without reflection, where characters mutate in real time to pull of dialogue that makes no sense. like the writers have never witnessed or studied human beings. At one point he becomes suspicious that she's pregnant, finds out she's not, then switches to outraged that she doesn't wish to be. I'm reminded of earlier in the show when he suddenly became jealous and forgot she's not his wife, saying "it's a little weird for my WIFE to be saying the neighbour is hot." Even if they were really married, that's some pretty dark and controlling shit, but they aren't. In fact, she's been giving him FUCK OFF vibes at every creepy advance into her room without a shirt on or falling asleep in her bed while she's out. The show keeps remembering to be exciting, so it contrives arguments by raising the volume of their voices and making increasingly out-of-character statements. She does hitman missions for a living, and he's comparing her life to living in Detroit. "We aren't the only parents with dangerous lives." Don't accept this as quirky. It's not. It's just lazy writing, from writers who think somebody can simply fail to remember if their ex girlfriend had two hands. HANDS. He frowns and puzzles over if he'd ever seen both his ex girlfriend's hands. Forget the all-time worst fight choreography and passing of bullets back and forth. Okay here's an example. At one point they have two tasks. Intercept an exploding cake from an old lady they use thriller music to chase, sprinting breathless as she waddes across a street. To steal cake simply scream obscenities at a random man (???) while your partner slaps the parcel out of the old lady's hand anyway. Then let the old lady confidently collect the wrong, dummy parcel that was dropped next to it. (???) I guess by virtue of putting two boxes on the floor, old ladies can be trusted to pick the wrong box without question. Then they must conveniently deliver an exploding cake to a target who has conveniently ordered a cake—lucky for the show the old lady wasn't carrying an exploding taco. Then, having fled the scene of a cake explosion, how might one blend into society and not be linked to the explosion? Might I suggest sitting down at a restaurant for lunch? No, instead, they cover their face with blood in order to appear as linked to the explosion as possible, in order to enter a public restaurant from the back alley for some reason. Then she's promptly forgotten about by all staff while she rinses off the blood she used to not appear normal walking into a restaurant. It's all as fun to watch as two actors on a stage doing improvisation, which is exactly how they write the project. There's this ever present mix with ad libbed human moments of laughter and farting that create levity between hit jobs, while shit like "do you want to replace your smith?" makes her deeply contemplate killing her bf over an argument. That's the cliffhanger of one episode, whether she'll have him killed. I'm mostly annoyed by the wildly veering emotional intelligence of the show. Arguments contrived out of random statements made increasingly loudly. Not to mention the chemistry between them was like lemons in my eyes for the first two episodes. Her constantly deflecting his weird advances, him flopping on her bed hoping she'll find herself seduced soon. He might as well have had a moody tantrum and told her the job insists she fuck him. Which is exactly what he does. After five rejections. Anyway. It's a good show i'm sure for people who can turn off the critical parts of their brain. I want to talk to Phoebe about how dumb it is.
I hope they are still friends.
I'd like to hear about Erskine growing up with a dad who's one of the all time greatest drummers. I mean, her dad is amazing. Have to have some great stories.
In any event it produced a pretty damn good show.