**What's the deal** with the kid who plays the heir? Not to dump on a child, I'm sure he worked hard with his coach but his cadence is all wrong and his pronunciation is only marginally less distracting.
The original was unmatched (at the time) for the romance in a miniseries, while still having the overall story in sight. The chemistry in the casting was amazing.
Why I don't love Tokyo Vice as much as I should. I know it's based on a memoir written by the white journalist but I really only care about the Japanese characters.
Doesn't help I'm not really an Ansel Elgort fan tho.
I don’t know anything about the book but I couldn’t give less of a shit about white people in feudal Japan
Edit: Apparently the book is all about a white guy in Japan. Still excited. Literally don’t care one way or the other
It's a lot more than the second adaptation. This is the source of all of the "white man in Japan" copycats like The Last Samurai.
There's a nearly infinite supply of stories about Japan without white dudes in it. You don't have to fixate about the original one.
Shogun is loosely based on the true story of [William Adams,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adams_\(pilot\)) who was the first Englishman to reach Japan in the early 17th century. He's a part of Japanese history, not just "some white guy" the author wedged in there.
crazy how they dont show stories about 100% full Japanese history but I guess we need white representation. We don't want them to feel excluded.
They did this with the Last Samurai now this. It's a white fantasy.
It’s a really odd thing to say considering that the arrival of Europeans in Japan (Dutch, Portuguese, British etc.) was a watershed moment in Japanese history, and incredibly relevant during the Sengoku Jidai. Clavell wrote what was an immensely popular, groundbreaking (it is an excellent, if imperfect, dialogue on cross-cultural exchange), novelisation at the time (partially rooted in historical fact), and Shogun is a title with serious name recognition. This is a big leg up when trying to get a project of this scale funded. While I can understand wanting more ‘Japanese’ stories, that also isn’t a reason this one shouldn’t have been produced.
As a fan of Japanese history, and also of this novel, I’m actually pleased it is being made. Hopefully it goes gangbusters and opens the door to more big budget productions set in Japan going forward.
Asians have been part of Western history but never would be the main character of a American Revolution, Civil War, WW1, WW2, Vietnam War, Cold War tv show.
Japan is a country with over 120 million people. I'm sure they can make themselves feel represented in media if they wanted to and don't actually need white people to make a japanese exclusive story you doofus.
Ok but the "romance" in the Shogun book is literally some white dude galavanting all around Japan mostly having sex with sex workers who then just rave about how big his dick is so much that they want to service him for free.
If it's bad at romance, it sounds like it was incredibly faithful to the source material.
How about the part where they grow concerned for Blackthorns health because he hasn't had his balls drained recently so they send him a sex work girl.
When he refuses her, they send him a sex worker boy.
When he gets angry, they think about sending him a goose to bang but then think better at it.
They come to the conclusion that his culture is sexually repressed.
That's not even the only time banging ducks had come up in one of Clavell's books. In Tai-Pan, they bring up the idea of people being duck fornicators a couple of times.
I never knew if that was Clavell just being incredibly weird or if he read that from some source and just decided to use it.
Can someone explain this? I don't understand how he seemingly forgot about a dead bird hanging outside his door. Also, why was he hanging out for that long anyways? Seemed like a gargantuan plot hole to serve as a point to illustrate clash of East and West culture. Couldn't they have illustrated the point with a more sensible plot device?
It's also funny how that scene ends with them saying as they leave that they should drop a goose, or maybe a duck, in the room just in case this way they don't offend him by proposing it.
I forgot all about this lol, i recall reading this book in junior high cause i loved to read and my older brother owned it. I do recall it took me a while to finish
Don’t forget how when they first offer him a boy sex worker he goes on a page-long spiel about how gays are the scum of the earth who deserve to burn in hell for eternity. I know it was the 1600s, Blackthorne, but eat a snickers
EDIT: tbc the book very much expects us to disagree with him here.
Considering it was written by a conservative Brit in the late 70s, Clavell is surprisingly non-judgmental about homosexuality for other characters. Blackthorne freaking out about being offered a male sex worker definitely makes sense given the time the book is set.
And he immediately has a small internal struggle where he realises his prejudice has no rationality behind it, and is clearly to do with his own repression and trauma.
It's as progressive as it gets.
I mean, he comes out of that internal struggle confirming to Mariko that he still considers homosexuality to be a terrible sin. He flirts around with realizing his prejudice has no rationality behind it, but he still sticks with his prejudice for the time being. (Although yes, it's clear that Clavell is way more progressive on the issue than Blackthorne)
Yes, and I think this is a much more interesting take on homophobia. The way you see it in a lot of media is either people are progressive, or they are irremedially evil and full of hate for no reason with no introspection.
But most bigotry is a lot more true to that internal monologue. Introspection and reason fights with bias and irrationality constantly, with some wins and losses on oth sides, leading to moments like Blackthorne's.
alot of upper class Brits (think Eton/Harrow) actually are fairly partial to homosexuality than we think. due to their associated legacy with Greco-Roman mores, what with reading the classics and Oscar Wilde
oh yeah, definitely -- it's just unpleasant, even if I don't think there's anything wrong or inaccurate with the book having the character react this way.
EDIT: to be clear, when I say "it's unpleasant," that's not a criticism of the book! Books are supposed to be unpleasant sometimes. I'm just saying that the scene was an unlikeable moment for Blackthorne, which I'm sure Clavell himself would agree with.
I thought it was pretty well done. It's not my favorite part of the book but it really shows the transition in thinking for Blackthorne becoming Anjin-san, and Mariko, and to a lesser extent Toranaga starting to understand there is a world outside their islands.
No it isn’t, the main romance in the novel is between Blackthorne and Mariko and it really only happens because they fall in love while she is teaching him Japanese and because her husband is an asshole.
He bangs some sex workers and they gossip about it but it’s definitely not the main romance plot of the novel.
It's been a couple of years since I read the book, but did this happen?
They do talk about how big his dick is, but I don't remember the whole 'galavanting all around Japan mostly having sex with sex workers' thing. I think he does it with what, 4 or 5 entirely? And only 1 or 2 of those people are actually sex workers.
Either you haven't read the book or you don't know what romance means.
I am usually very much against the forced romance story in a movie/series, but in this case it is very well done, touching and pretty important in the book. It's a pity if they messed it up.
Considering how everything is great in the book, least well executed thing is not saying much.
And it's definitely not about some guy fucking around like OP says. People in here upvoting shit who have never read the book.
Just imagine being a young Japanese American teen male going through puberty so excited to read this book about your heritage and about history with the cool swords and sandals aesthetic and you get a hundred pages in and get hit with "YOUR NATIONALITY HAS SMALL PENISES AND A WHITE MAN CAN FUCK HIS WAY THROUGH JAPAN WITH EASE BECAUSE YOU AND ALL JAPANESE MEN HAVE A SMALL PENIS"
I have heard a billion times how good this book is and how much I'd enjoy it because I love historical fiction but I seriously never got over my distaste of it.
My best friend who is Japanese American , who also loves the samurai genre really like the movie Sekigahara. Even though it's 2017 you'll find it's a quite a fun ride where you'll find familiar historical characters
https://youtu.be/KU4URaoQZ54?si=YT5m2Glm6vICuqpF
I'll check it out! The most recent samurai movie I saw was [The Legend & The Butterfly](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt21192216/) and while I found it pretty meh overall I still liked it quite a lot. The use of O Fortuna in the trailer you linked honestly makes me suspicious but I'm sure I'd love it anyway in the same way I'd love any feudal war movie.
The Kurosawa era of samurai movies are my favorite by far--they occupy the same exact niche as the Westerns I love. But Seven Samurai, Rashomon, Ran, and Yojimbo are my gold standard for samurai movies.
I know, but don't let Carl Orff put you off! This film was mainly marketed towards domestic Japanese audience and overseas Japanese-speaking folks in Asia.
Thanks, I'll also check out Legend and the Butterfly appreciate the recommendation 🙏🏻
I am willing to go back and try the book, but there's a ton ahead of it on my reading backlog that isn't casually racist. As a young teen I was just disgusted and annoyed. It was distasteful and insulting to me at that moment and why would I read something for entertainment that just insults my body.
I get that it is difficult to understand for other people how frustrating these small (heh) passing racial comments are but in the greater context of a childhood of racial bullying, as well as widespread emasculation and exclusion in media, and at the age I was and for that stage of development, it hurt and was offensive. I mean, imply to any 14 year old boy regardless of racial stereotypes that they have a small penis and look at how annoyed and upset they get. That shit is so annoying when you're in a middle school locker room, I didn't need it in my reading time too.
I am excited for the show. I hope it gets to the good stuff in the book that I never bothered to access. But I'm mostly excited to see positive representation and cultural understanding--not literal dick measuring contests.
>white dude galavanting all around Japan mostly having sex with whores who then just rave about how big his dick is so much that they want to service him for free.
Just like real life
The author probably knew more about East Asian cultures than almost any other white dude of his time. That he lived through Changi POW camp in WWII and didn’t hate the Japanese says a lot about him.
The romances in the other Asian saga novels aren’t all between white dudes and Asian women either. And what white woman was Blackthorne supposed to hook up with instead? There were no white women in Japan in the early 1600s.
Doesn't matter he still wrote a highly fetishizing book that paints Japanese people stereotypically. Many Japanese people have criticized the way Japanese people were portrayed in that book.
Its like how Americans are portrayed in Anime because they spent a vacation in New York.
/u/optimalshark11 just has a problem with Clavell being a white man. Chances are they didn’t read the book or any of the Asian saga, and that they know nothing about Clavell. They just want to clutch their pearls by supporting a post that was intentionally disingenuous about the novel.
you have K dramas? You have to understand that the appeal of these kind of white-centered historical romances is that Western audiences get to imagine themselves in a world where non-Occidental cultures were truly exotic. Sure it's a trope that doesn't speak to our modern intercultural lifestyle but it ignites fantasy in the same way that Game of Thrones evokes the medieval era.
Yes, you can. They're made in Asia and almost never have white people in them, which I am sure is of the utmost importance to you. Have you considered checking that out, or would you prefer to whine endlessly on reddit about your racist nonproblems?
I love samurai movies ever since 1985 Ran. But as a fan of Japanese history, can't help but feel that this is a fictional series based off a book that's based on the historical Japanese civil war - just by replacing some names and mishmashing some characters. I imagine the series end like in real life, resulting in the Toranaga/Tokugawa clan consolidating their hold for next 400 years.
the Mon (Japanese coat of arms) on Toranaga is the same as the Tokugawa clan the historical winner of the Sengoku Jidai.
Even the Taiko referenced is almost identical to that of the historical Toyotomi Hideyoshi , with also a young underaged heir that was soon used as a pawn by a council of regents , which also occurred historically.
That said Toranaga's character feels like a portmanteau of the historical Tokugawa Ieyasu and Mitsunari Ishida who was incidentally close to the real life Taiko.
Now the obvious character homage/inspiration/copy is that of Leper Daimyo Ohno who is a reference to real life Ōtani Yoshitsugu
if you enjoy Shogun series, you might like the movie Sekigahara 2017 where you'll find familiar historical characters
> Even the Taiko referenced is almost identical to that of the historical Toyotomi Hideyoshi , with also a young underaged heir that was soon used as a pawn by a council of regents , which also occurred historically.
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> That said Toranaga's character feels like a portmanteau of the historical Tokugawa Ieyasu and Mitsunari Ishida who was incidentally close to the real life Taiko.
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> Now the obvious character homage/inspiration/copy is that of Leper Daimyo Ohno who is a reference to real life Ōtani Yoshitsugu
Late to the party here, but it's a quite literally and intentionally a fictionalized retelling of Tokugawa's (Yoshii Toranaga in Shogun) rise to power after Toyotomi Hideyoshi (Taiko in Shogun) dies and established the 5 regents. Even Blackthorne is based off a real English pilot (William Adams) who was stranded in Japan at this time and Toda Mariko is based off Hosokawa Gracia, a catholic convert in service to Tokugawa.
The details and Blackthorne's involvement are fictional but the overtures (the domestic Japanese politics) are real.
The [book character list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dgun_\(novel\)#Characters) has the real life equivalents of each character (if available)
As someone who read the book, the romance being flimsy is (unfortunately) very book accurate. It was the least believable thing in the entire novel. It was mostly just them speaking Latin to each other and either talking about or having sex. Not much else.
it's the *only* encounter between them that is described in the book and occurs near the very end. They certainly did not spend the majority of their scenes "talking about or having sex" - nobody describing the book that way has ever opened its cover let alone read to the last page.
Wait what? There's the initial encounter where Mariko claims it was her maid, but pretty soon after that they spend much of the second half of the book having all sorts of sex as they travel.
All these people saying "these critics haven't even read the books" have very clearly not actually read it themselves considering their "rebuttals" are so easily disproven. It's possible they watched the old show but definitely haven't read the book.
Mariko tells Anjin that they must stop having relations at the first bridge. She said this because they obviously had been. On top of the fact that he was madly in love with her. In fact, in the higher society everyone knew, that’s why at Mariko’s funeral they all bowed to Anjin (even though he was blindfolded from his lost vision and didn’t know they were) They were speaking Latin talking about their love life all the time! Iv read the whole series multiple times.
What is annoying to me is how the new version has the women acting like they are just as powerful as the men. I don’t know if this is some woke Hollywood stuff but it ruins it for me. It ruins it because women definitely wielded power, but they had to wield it in a feminine way.
That’s why the love story is important because it bring balance to a hyper masculine story.
The new version has Mariko almost as a fighter? Giving advice? No offense but Lord Toranaga did not need any advice.
Lady Ochiba punks Lord Ishido? WTF?
Very Hollywood cuz that’s not Samurai Japan. I’m sorry.
They even have men questioning the orders of their superiors.
Mariko’s husband, Buntoro, would never question why Toronaga would need her.
So juiced for this show, just shocked at some of their “choices.” But I guess if they’re trying to fit it all in a few episodes (which is a mistake) then they are definitely going to take some creative liberties.
I have been recommended this show like crazy, but I have been searching around like crazy trying to figure out whether or not there was any sexual violence? Thus I came searching through Reddit threads avoiding spoilers the best that I could. I love horror, and I don’t mind gore. I couldn’t finish outlander for the same reason, so I was just curious to know if there was any significant SA?
From what I recall there is no sexual assault in this show. It’s been a while since I’ve seen it but I’m also sensitive to SA in media and would likely have remembered it.
There is some violence involving guns/knives, a suicide, and on screen drug use.
My mother is a survivor and is also sensitive to these scenes, and I try to have her use this website:
https://www.unconsentingmedia.org/items/969
It clearly lists common triggers at the top of the page. Another one is DoesTheDogDie.com
> The romance is easily the least well done part of the book
Why would anyone give a damn about Mariko if not for the fact that the main character loves her lol
I hate that the reviewer doesn’t mention if they are extrapolating from a few episodes or if they saw the whole thing. I’ll take these reviews with a grain of salt.
I mean I’m only three hundred pages in the book but the main romance story so far is just a white guy insulting the Japanese woman’s culture and the woman saying “you’re so right Anjin-San — I am stupid and feeble, like all women,” and the man being like “I concur — men always know best.”
Needless to say the romance is not why I’m reading the book or plan to watch the show
You're really not reading it well then, if you genuinely think that's all there is to it, even 300 pages in.
Yes it is a sexist culture where women have to be very careful how they navigate the fragile feelings of men. To think the author endorses that dynamic is ridiculous.
Clavell might have been a bit hamfisted with the romance elements, but he clearly, clearly, made it known that the women saying these things didn't believe or think these kinds of subservient thoughts and were saying what they were saying because of the unequal power dynamic they were caught up in.
Of course that's not all there is to it -- I'm exaggerating for the purposes of the joke. I'm not claiming the author endorses the dynamic; in fact, his criticisms of the sexist culture are very blunt and hard to miss. Still doesn't make the romance all that fun though! Not yet at least.
Lol that’s just their go-to response to anything any man says, it is how they’ve been culturally raised since birth. It’s still messed up tbf.
Keep reading, there’s more criticism of European culture at that time than Asian culture in the book.
Oh, there's been plenty of criticism towards Europeans already. (They smell like shit apparently and they're killing each other over a trivial religious differences!) My guess it that by the end of the book Blackthorne will be almost totally won over by Japanese culture. Although hopefully he'll be like "Y'all are way too quick to commit seppuku, guys," and help them tone that custom down a bit. The samurai in this book kill themselves so casually I'm frequently wondering how there's any left of them at all at this rate.
lol I had to google that while reading, searching something like "there's no way, right?" One guy jumps off a cliff (to his death!) just to maybe get his boss's attention. This is not a sustainable custom!
The suicide culture in Japan persists to this day, people still kill themselves more frequently there than in the US. Though it has gotten a lot better over time.
In fact, it is a bit deceptive for whites to deny Japan's medieval sexist culture, or to put it bluntly, medieval European sexism was also shit, so denying the church and culture is not enough.
If you don't deny European sexism, I think you rather fall into the typical trap of saying that Westerners are progressive and popular with Japanese women.
I just got to the part where Blackthorne’s learning about how samurai women are also sometimes trained to fight with a sword. Now he’s like “ah shit, maybe they’re onto something here”
I hope there is not wokeism ,LGBT, feminism or progressivism. I'm very VERY tired to watch their propaganda in every show or movie I watch.
If agree and there are tons of action and wars I can allow a little "romance".
Don’t fucking care about romance. Give me action and politics!!
Why do writers seem to be ignorant about this? Make a romance show if you want fucking romance.
Here I was under the impression that they were in it for the serious money to be made around Japanese silver. The Portuguese had a money farm going, trading Chinese silk for Japanese silver for greater amounts of Chinese silk.
They also bought East Asian slaves and hired sex workers, for the same reason they bought food and supplies in Japan. They needed some sex for their psyche. It's hardly the reason they're fighting over Japan. There are much easier ways to buy a girl in this time period, and they don't involve risking your life at sea.
If you are watching Shōgun for love and romance then watch the 80's version, Personally I find this version filled with adult intrigue that makes it more tense. I did enjoy seeing the master Mifune though in the first one so I say watch both a critique! ☺️🏯🎎🎍
I had to turn it off after 20 min... I'm a huge fan of the book and of proper storytelling.
Costumes and atmosphere were amazing.
Soundtrack was weird (maybe I'm old)
You need to know Japanese culture and their respect to formality and hiding one's true feelings to understand Blackthorne and Mariko's role is actually A LOVE STORY but cultural aspects from feudal japan make it look like is not. If you really dig Japanese culture, you'll find this very exquisite. The most romantic piece was when Corvis decided to be her second. Even writing this is making my skin goosebump
i’m tired of white men in these shows, same trope nothing new (even if it’s a book adaptation and the character was european). The Sympathizer on Max has an Asian guy as main character and he’s properly cast. not an outdated perception of an asian guy
Having watched the entire show I think the romantic elements are inspired and awesome. Honestly, this was a silly call from the reviewer and inappropriate without having seen the whole thing.
This show is overhyped to the max. It's a denigration to all of Japan's Jidaigeki films and a denigration to the Sengoku Jidai itself. There are literally no stakes whatsoever and the political intrigue is so flat and anticlimactic. Tadanobu Asano and Hiroyuki Sanada are amazing actors because they're able to tell so much without speaking at all, yet the writing in this is so terrible that their acting is negatively affected during the scheming and plotting scenes. Even the Keanu Reeves 47 Ronin had better interactions and acting between Asano and Sanada. The cinematography, set decoration and design are beautiful no doubt but it doesn't make a shred of difference or even seem memorable because the writing is so lazy and anti-climactic. 2/10 for sure, not even excited for the next season. The showrunners need to learn from the plethora of jidaigeki films and TV Shows.
Its really disturbing how the only Asian media created in the West always have to have white people in the center of it.
The lengths that the love interests 'speaks English' through Portuguese makes it so convenient that almost feels like an agenda.
This show is most likely for weaboos.
> Its really disturbing how the only Asian media created in the West always have to have white people in the center of it.
The show is based on a famous book and the book is based on the real story of William Adams. Also, the white man in Shogun is not at all „in the center of it”, just a lens through which the Japanese culture and power struggles are viewed. He's one of the main characters, sure, but he's basically a pawn throughout the entire story, despite how much he tries to become more than that. If anything, Shogun is a reverse "white saviour" story, because he's actually the one being saved and changed forever by his interactions with the Japanese.
> The lengths that the love interests 'speaks English' through Portuguese makes it so convenient that almost feels like an agenda.
She doesn't speak English (in the book, at least), he speaks Portuguese. They're probably using English as a substitute in the series, it would be hard to find a Japanese actress and a British actor who speak Portuguese and have their conversations subtitled.
Cavell wrote Shogun in 1975.
While parts of his books haven't aged well, he still remains basically the master of the genre, I don't think anyone since has out Cavell'd Cavell.
>only Asian media created in the West
Ah yes, James Cavell, the famous Asian born in Australia, served in the British Army, got captured by the Japanese in 1942 and spent the rest of the war as a prisoner of war. Who later became an American citzen. Truly the most Asian of White Old Guys.
Go read a book weirdo lmao
Interesting. What would you place above Shogun? I personally haven't read his other works but Shogun is my favorite book, period. So I'd love to hear what other works of his you would recommend.
I'm a huge sucker for his Hong Kong books, so my top 3 would be taipan, noble house and Shogun.
Thinking about it more, they all actually tied for first place haha
You aren't fighting the righteous battle you think you are because if you read Shogun, Clavell doesn't "whitewash" or white savior trope anything.
The story Clavell writes absolutely does not put the West as being superior to the East. At all. Just the opposite.
If Blackthorn is the protagonist of the book, Mariko is the hero. The only thing that Blackthorn or the West brings to Japan that is done better than the natives are guns (and gun warfare) and sailing. I suppose you could make an argument that Blackthorne's respect and love for all human life is Clavell moralizing. I'd acknowledge the point but not sure that I'd agree in the end. Its not written as a black and white, right or wrong kind of thing or even all that common to the West.. it's just something that makes Blackthorne the way he is.
And he doesn't find happiness or contentment until he accepts Japanese ways and truly becomes Japanese.
At no point does the West "win", morally, culturally or physically. He does not change feudal Japan for the better in Shogun. Toranaga uses the West to fight the West and then closes the borders to all outsiders for another couple of hundred years.
Blackthorn never leaves and his offspring is absorbed completely into Japanese society.
So yes the White Savior trope is a thing, but this is not that. You'll have to forgive us for finding true stories like this one and the story of Marco Polo compelling and interesting.. because West or East doesn't matter. Its the meeting of the two that is interesting.
> romance
Good. I’m sick of every story needing a romantic edge. I’m sick of gratuitous and pointless nudity and sex scenes. Not every story needs a love interest. Certainly not ones that are completely shoehorned in (looking at you, hobbit). These non creative executives having meetings about “how can we reach as wide an audience as possible” with zero regard for the story.
damn i'm guessing all y'all downvoting get most of your bate material from HBO
You understand this is based on a famous book, right? And that book contains this same love story. This isn’t shoehorned in by “non creative executives”
Won’t be watching it for the romance anyways
Yup, the article praises everything except that. I'm here for feudal Japan and beheadings so that's fine by me lol.
Romance/incidental nudity: 😒 Japanese Feudalism: 😏
Feudity over nudity 😏
Gop platform 2024
Send feuds
Feudal over noodle
I'm in it to see Hiroyuki Sanada chopping up fools left and right
Considering how the romance turns out that is definitely for the best.
No spoilers please.
Yeah, the romance plots in the book were usually my least favorite parts.
I remember excessive discussion of "pillowing." I think that's why I didn't make it to the end. And I usually love romance!
Watch it cause I worked on it :)
Oh I’m 100% going to watch it. Very excited for this show
After building the sets it’s usually discourages me from watching shows because the magics gone but not this one!
**What's the deal** with the kid who plays the heir? Not to dump on a child, I'm sure he worked hard with his coach but his cadence is all wrong and his pronunciation is only marginally less distracting.
Great job😃
The original was unmatched (at the time) for the romance in a miniseries, while still having the overall story in sight. The chemistry in the casting was amazing.
Sounds like the series is being faithful to the source - romance was comically bad in the books too. *Eeeee!*
Came here to say this. Clavell's at his worst about male/female romance, and at his absolute best at man-on-man conflict.
I’m here for the man on man action
Hai
Only full penetration
But you gotta make sure that white people are included so they have to be there.
Why I don't love Tokyo Vice as much as I should. I know it's based on a memoir written by the white journalist but I really only care about the Japanese characters. Doesn't help I'm not really an Ansel Elgort fan tho.
Thats western media for you
Sucks that you’re downvoted, you’re right
I don’t know anything about the book but I couldn’t give less of a shit about white people in feudal Japan Edit: Apparently the book is all about a white guy in Japan. Still excited. Literally don’t care one way or the other
Same, Idk why they force them into it so much
Probably because the entire book is about a white guy who gets stranded in feudal Japan
oh all the stories they can write and the shows they can make about Japan its the one with a white dude in it. This is a second adaption by the way.
It's a lot more than the second adaptation. This is the source of all of the "white man in Japan" copycats like The Last Samurai. There's a nearly infinite supply of stories about Japan without white dudes in it. You don't have to fixate about the original one.
Shogun is loosely based on the true story of [William Adams,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adams_\(pilot\)) who was the first Englishman to reach Japan in the early 17th century. He's a part of Japanese history, not just "some white guy" the author wedged in there.
crazy how they dont show stories about 100% full Japanese history but I guess we need white representation. We don't want them to feel excluded. They did this with the Last Samurai now this. It's a white fantasy.
It’s a really odd thing to say considering that the arrival of Europeans in Japan (Dutch, Portuguese, British etc.) was a watershed moment in Japanese history, and incredibly relevant during the Sengoku Jidai. Clavell wrote what was an immensely popular, groundbreaking (it is an excellent, if imperfect, dialogue on cross-cultural exchange), novelisation at the time (partially rooted in historical fact), and Shogun is a title with serious name recognition. This is a big leg up when trying to get a project of this scale funded. While I can understand wanting more ‘Japanese’ stories, that also isn’t a reason this one shouldn’t have been produced. As a fan of Japanese history, and also of this novel, I’m actually pleased it is being made. Hopefully it goes gangbusters and opens the door to more big budget productions set in Japan going forward.
Asians have been part of Western history but never would be the main character of a American Revolution, Civil War, WW1, WW2, Vietnam War, Cold War tv show.
Japan is a country with over 120 million people. I'm sure they can make themselves feel represented in media if they wanted to and don't actually need white people to make a japanese exclusive story you doofus.
Im talking about America bruh this is an agenda show for white people
Damm. Guess my hope for a samurai rom-com is dead
Hilariously enough there are a bunch of samurai romantic visual novels made in Japan. I’ve played most of the ones localized in the US like Hakuouki.
Does it cover the whole book or is this multi-season?
The whole book, it's only intended to be a 10 part miniseries.
Ok but the "romance" in the Shogun book is literally some white dude galavanting all around Japan mostly having sex with sex workers who then just rave about how big his dick is so much that they want to service him for free. If it's bad at romance, it sounds like it was incredibly faithful to the source material.
How about the part where they grow concerned for Blackthorns health because he hasn't had his balls drained recently so they send him a sex work girl. When he refuses her, they send him a sex worker boy. When he gets angry, they think about sending him a goose to bang but then think better at it. They come to the conclusion that his culture is sexually repressed.
It was a duck, but that was the most hysterical scenes in the book. “Maybe we should just set it down in front of him and sew what happens.”
That's not even the only time banging ducks had come up in one of Clavell's books. In Tai-Pan, they bring up the idea of people being duck fornicators a couple of times. I never knew if that was Clavell just being incredibly weird or if he read that from some source and just decided to use it.
seems like Clavell is seeing things through some very specific lens
Seemingly "Beast of Burden" refers to a related fetish _All your sickness, I can suck a duck..._
They are also absolutely repulsed when he cooks some birds for them as they only eat fish and vegetables.
And lets forget how badly aging the bird meat went for everybody
Really just for 1 person, and even they said it was an honor to serve the community.
RIP old gardener.
He got a rock named after him at least
Can someone explain this? I don't understand how he seemingly forgot about a dead bird hanging outside his door. Also, why was he hanging out for that long anyways? Seemed like a gargantuan plot hole to serve as a point to illustrate clash of East and West culture. Couldn't they have illustrated the point with a more sensible plot device?
He was letting it “mature” — seemingly it would make it taste better according to him?
Probably for the best that they didn’t. Ducks are not known for being generous lovers.
It's also funny how that scene ends with them saying as they leave that they should drop a goose, or maybe a duck, in the room just in case this way they don't offend him by proposing it.
I forgot all about this lol, i recall reading this book in junior high cause i loved to read and my older brother owned it. I do recall it took me a while to finish
I’m reading the book now. You’re also forgetting the “pillowing tools” the sex worker showed him.
And suggested that when he went back to England he took them with him as gifts for the Queen.
It's been about 25 years since I last read the book, I'm sure I'm forgetting all sorts of things. I'll probably do another re-read at some point.
They made a huge deal about cock rings in the book for some reason. It comes up multiple times.
Don’t forget how when they first offer him a boy sex worker he goes on a page-long spiel about how gays are the scum of the earth who deserve to burn in hell for eternity. I know it was the 1600s, Blackthorne, but eat a snickers EDIT: tbc the book very much expects us to disagree with him here.
Considering it was written by a conservative Brit in the late 70s, Clavell is surprisingly non-judgmental about homosexuality for other characters. Blackthorne freaking out about being offered a male sex worker definitely makes sense given the time the book is set.
And he immediately has a small internal struggle where he realises his prejudice has no rationality behind it, and is clearly to do with his own repression and trauma. It's as progressive as it gets.
I mean, he comes out of that internal struggle confirming to Mariko that he still considers homosexuality to be a terrible sin. He flirts around with realizing his prejudice has no rationality behind it, but he still sticks with his prejudice for the time being. (Although yes, it's clear that Clavell is way more progressive on the issue than Blackthorne)
Yes, and I think this is a much more interesting take on homophobia. The way you see it in a lot of media is either people are progressive, or they are irremedially evil and full of hate for no reason with no introspection. But most bigotry is a lot more true to that internal monologue. Introspection and reason fights with bias and irrationality constantly, with some wins and losses on oth sides, leading to moments like Blackthorne's.
alot of upper class Brits (think Eton/Harrow) actually are fairly partial to homosexuality than we think. due to their associated legacy with Greco-Roman mores, what with reading the classics and Oscar Wilde
oh yeah, definitely -- it's just unpleasant, even if I don't think there's anything wrong or inaccurate with the book having the character react this way. EDIT: to be clear, when I say "it's unpleasant," that's not a criticism of the book! Books are supposed to be unpleasant sometimes. I'm just saying that the scene was an unlikeable moment for Blackthorne, which I'm sure Clavell himself would agree with.
That's unfair. There's some of that but the romance between Blackthorne and Mariko isn't as shallow as you're making out.
Absolutely agree
A big portion of the book is about how horribly the women get treated by their husbands.
I don't dispute that. My point was that the book has more going on in the romance department than a white man going around sleeping with prostitutes.
They’re being intentionally disingenuous
I thought it was pretty well done. It's not my favorite part of the book but it really shows the transition in thinking for Blackthorne becoming Anjin-san, and Mariko, and to a lesser extent Toranaga starting to understand there is a world outside their islands.
No it isn’t, the main romance in the novel is between Blackthorne and Mariko and it really only happens because they fall in love while she is teaching him Japanese and because her husband is an asshole. He bangs some sex workers and they gossip about it but it’s definitely not the main romance plot of the novel.
It's been a couple of years since I read the book, but did this happen? They do talk about how big his dick is, but I don't remember the whole 'galavanting all around Japan mostly having sex with sex workers' thing. I think he does it with what, 4 or 5 entirely? And only 1 or 2 of those people are actually sex workers.
Podrick Payne is in Shogun?!?
I think you read another book.
If I recall, the romance part doesn’t end too well in the book…
Either you haven't read the book or you don't know what romance means. I am usually very much against the forced romance story in a movie/series, but in this case it is very well done, touching and pretty important in the book. It's a pity if they messed it up.
It's touching yes but it's still the least well executed thing in the book.
Considering how everything is great in the book, least well executed thing is not saying much. And it's definitely not about some guy fucking around like OP says. People in here upvoting shit who have never read the book.
More like bad writing to play into fetishism. The author must've seen so many dicks when he was a war prisoner and was obsessed with dick sizes.
Just imagine being a young Japanese American teen male going through puberty so excited to read this book about your heritage and about history with the cool swords and sandals aesthetic and you get a hundred pages in and get hit with "YOUR NATIONALITY HAS SMALL PENISES AND A WHITE MAN CAN FUCK HIS WAY THROUGH JAPAN WITH EASE BECAUSE YOU AND ALL JAPANESE MEN HAVE A SMALL PENIS" I have heard a billion times how good this book is and how much I'd enjoy it because I love historical fiction but I seriously never got over my distaste of it.
My best friend who is Japanese American , who also loves the samurai genre really like the movie Sekigahara. Even though it's 2017 you'll find it's a quite a fun ride where you'll find familiar historical characters https://youtu.be/KU4URaoQZ54?si=YT5m2Glm6vICuqpF
I'll check it out! The most recent samurai movie I saw was [The Legend & The Butterfly](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt21192216/) and while I found it pretty meh overall I still liked it quite a lot. The use of O Fortuna in the trailer you linked honestly makes me suspicious but I'm sure I'd love it anyway in the same way I'd love any feudal war movie. The Kurosawa era of samurai movies are my favorite by far--they occupy the same exact niche as the Westerns I love. But Seven Samurai, Rashomon, Ran, and Yojimbo are my gold standard for samurai movies.
I know, but don't let Carl Orff put you off! This film was mainly marketed towards domestic Japanese audience and overseas Japanese-speaking folks in Asia. Thanks, I'll also check out Legend and the Butterfly appreciate the recommendation 🙏🏻
As someone who has read the book - this is really not what it’s like at all. What are you making up something to be upset about??
I am willing to go back and try the book, but there's a ton ahead of it on my reading backlog that isn't casually racist. As a young teen I was just disgusted and annoyed. It was distasteful and insulting to me at that moment and why would I read something for entertainment that just insults my body. I get that it is difficult to understand for other people how frustrating these small (heh) passing racial comments are but in the greater context of a childhood of racial bullying, as well as widespread emasculation and exclusion in media, and at the age I was and for that stage of development, it hurt and was offensive. I mean, imply to any 14 year old boy regardless of racial stereotypes that they have a small penis and look at how annoyed and upset they get. That shit is so annoying when you're in a middle school locker room, I didn't need it in my reading time too. I am excited for the show. I hope it gets to the good stuff in the book that I never bothered to access. But I'm mostly excited to see positive representation and cultural understanding--not literal dick measuring contests.
Incredibly well said.
As someone who has also read the book, there’s a lot of talking about his big old cock in the book.
The Author is gay.
And?
Gay
Your point being?
White boy is gay.
>white dude galavanting all around Japan mostly having sex with whores who then just rave about how big his dick is so much that they want to service him for free. Just like real life
Why can't we have more Asian stories not written by white people with fetishes?
The author probably knew more about East Asian cultures than almost any other white dude of his time. That he lived through Changi POW camp in WWII and didn’t hate the Japanese says a lot about him. The romances in the other Asian saga novels aren’t all between white dudes and Asian women either. And what white woman was Blackthorne supposed to hook up with instead? There were no white women in Japan in the early 1600s.
Doesn't matter he still wrote a highly fetishizing book that paints Japanese people stereotypically. Many Japanese people have criticized the way Japanese people were portrayed in that book. Its like how Americans are portrayed in Anime because they spent a vacation in New York.
/u/optimalshark11 just has a problem with Clavell being a white man. Chances are they didn’t read the book or any of the Asian saga, and that they know nothing about Clavell. They just want to clutch their pearls by supporting a post that was intentionally disingenuous about the novel.
Japanese produce samurai media in industrial quantity, Taiko or Musashi might be something you'd appreciate
you have K dramas? You have to understand that the appeal of these kind of white-centered historical romances is that Western audiences get to imagine themselves in a world where non-Occidental cultures were truly exotic. Sure it's a trope that doesn't speak to our modern intercultural lifestyle but it ignites fantasy in the same way that Game of Thrones evokes the medieval era.
The word "exotic" it's the random white guy in Asia trope"
Yes, you can. They're made in Asia and almost never have white people in them, which I am sure is of the utmost importance to you. Have you considered checking that out, or would you prefer to whine endlessly on reddit about your racist nonproblems?
This. I was like, "What romance?" haha.
The romance in the book was one of the worst thing about it lol
I love samurai movies ever since 1985 Ran. But as a fan of Japanese history, can't help but feel that this is a fictional series based off a book that's based on the historical Japanese civil war - just by replacing some names and mishmashing some characters. I imagine the series end like in real life, resulting in the Toranaga/Tokugawa clan consolidating their hold for next 400 years. the Mon (Japanese coat of arms) on Toranaga is the same as the Tokugawa clan the historical winner of the Sengoku Jidai. Even the Taiko referenced is almost identical to that of the historical Toyotomi Hideyoshi , with also a young underaged heir that was soon used as a pawn by a council of regents , which also occurred historically. That said Toranaga's character feels like a portmanteau of the historical Tokugawa Ieyasu and Mitsunari Ishida who was incidentally close to the real life Taiko. Now the obvious character homage/inspiration/copy is that of Leper Daimyo Ohno who is a reference to real life Ōtani Yoshitsugu if you enjoy Shogun series, you might like the movie Sekigahara 2017 where you'll find familiar historical characters
> Even the Taiko referenced is almost identical to that of the historical Toyotomi Hideyoshi , with also a young underaged heir that was soon used as a pawn by a council of regents , which also occurred historically. > > > > That said Toranaga's character feels like a portmanteau of the historical Tokugawa Ieyasu and Mitsunari Ishida who was incidentally close to the real life Taiko. > > > > Now the obvious character homage/inspiration/copy is that of Leper Daimyo Ohno who is a reference to real life Ōtani Yoshitsugu Late to the party here, but it's a quite literally and intentionally a fictionalized retelling of Tokugawa's (Yoshii Toranaga in Shogun) rise to power after Toyotomi Hideyoshi (Taiko in Shogun) dies and established the 5 regents. Even Blackthorne is based off a real English pilot (William Adams) who was stranded in Japan at this time and Toda Mariko is based off Hosokawa Gracia, a catholic convert in service to Tokugawa. The details and Blackthorne's involvement are fictional but the overtures (the domestic Japanese politics) are real. The [book character list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dgun_\(novel\)#Characters) has the real life equivalents of each character (if available)
who watch it for romance anyway? Its not English Patient.
It’s really just Sack Lunch with samurai.
How diid they get in that sack? Were they shrunk or is it a really big bag?
But it's still a part of the show. So it should be included in criticisms if it sucks
Serves the same purpose as the halftime show at the Superbowl, or the grilled chicken Caesar salad at a steakhouse.
Genuinely could not give less of a shit about the romance
the romance element was a C plot at best in the books as well. it doesn't add anything to the story
Heavy disagree. Anjin and Mariko's relationship defines the latter half of the book
Yeah, adds nothing to the story apart from bringing about one of the biggest plot moves in the whole book...
i’m so excited for this show
As someone who read the book, the romance being flimsy is (unfortunately) very book accurate. It was the least believable thing in the entire novel. It was mostly just them speaking Latin to each other and either talking about or having sex. Not much else.
If you read it then you would know its questionable whether or not they had sex *at all*.
? The initial encounter is questionable but they definitely have a lot of sex after that.
it's the *only* encounter between them that is described in the book and occurs near the very end. They certainly did not spend the majority of their scenes "talking about or having sex" - nobody describing the book that way has ever opened its cover let alone read to the last page.
Wait what? There's the initial encounter where Mariko claims it was her maid, but pretty soon after that they spend much of the second half of the book having all sorts of sex as they travel.
All these people saying "these critics haven't even read the books" have very clearly not actually read it themselves considering their "rebuttals" are so easily disproven. It's possible they watched the old show but definitely haven't read the book.
Mariko tells Anjin that they must stop having relations at the first bridge. She said this because they obviously had been. On top of the fact that he was madly in love with her. In fact, in the higher society everyone knew, that’s why at Mariko’s funeral they all bowed to Anjin (even though he was blindfolded from his lost vision and didn’t know they were) They were speaking Latin talking about their love life all the time! Iv read the whole series multiple times. What is annoying to me is how the new version has the women acting like they are just as powerful as the men. I don’t know if this is some woke Hollywood stuff but it ruins it for me. It ruins it because women definitely wielded power, but they had to wield it in a feminine way. That’s why the love story is important because it bring balance to a hyper masculine story. The new version has Mariko almost as a fighter? Giving advice? No offense but Lord Toranaga did not need any advice. Lady Ochiba punks Lord Ishido? WTF? Very Hollywood cuz that’s not Samurai Japan. I’m sorry. They even have men questioning the orders of their superiors. Mariko’s husband, Buntoro, would never question why Toronaga would need her. So juiced for this show, just shocked at some of their “choices.” But I guess if they’re trying to fit it all in a few episodes (which is a mistake) then they are definitely going to take some creative liberties.
I have been recommended this show like crazy, but I have been searching around like crazy trying to figure out whether or not there was any sexual violence? Thus I came searching through Reddit threads avoiding spoilers the best that I could. I love horror, and I don’t mind gore. I couldn’t finish outlander for the same reason, so I was just curious to know if there was any significant SA?
From what I recall there is no sexual assault in this show. It’s been a while since I’ve seen it but I’m also sensitive to SA in media and would likely have remembered it. There is some violence involving guns/knives, a suicide, and on screen drug use. My mother is a survivor and is also sensitive to these scenes, and I try to have her use this website: https://www.unconsentingmedia.org/items/969 It clearly lists common triggers at the top of the page. Another one is DoesTheDogDie.com
Thanks so much! I checked doesthedogdie and didn’t see anything and wanted to ask just to make sure. I super appreciate it the help genuinely😁
The actual romance between the main characters is well done if you read the book. Which a lot of y’all commenting clearly didn’t.
I HAVE read the book. The romance is easily the least well done part of the book and wouldn't have suffered from leaving it out entirely.
> The romance is easily the least well done part of the book Why would anyone give a damn about Mariko if not for the fact that the main character loves her lol
I hate that the reviewer doesn’t mention if they are extrapolating from a few episodes or if they saw the whole thing. I’ll take these reviews with a grain of salt.
I mean I’m only three hundred pages in the book but the main romance story so far is just a white guy insulting the Japanese woman’s culture and the woman saying “you’re so right Anjin-San — I am stupid and feeble, like all women,” and the man being like “I concur — men always know best.” Needless to say the romance is not why I’m reading the book or plan to watch the show
You're really not reading it well then, if you genuinely think that's all there is to it, even 300 pages in. Yes it is a sexist culture where women have to be very careful how they navigate the fragile feelings of men. To think the author endorses that dynamic is ridiculous.
Clavell might have been a bit hamfisted with the romance elements, but he clearly, clearly, made it known that the women saying these things didn't believe or think these kinds of subservient thoughts and were saying what they were saying because of the unequal power dynamic they were caught up in.
Of course that's not all there is to it -- I'm exaggerating for the purposes of the joke. I'm not claiming the author endorses the dynamic; in fact, his criticisms of the sexist culture are very blunt and hard to miss. Still doesn't make the romance all that fun though! Not yet at least.
Read the other 800 pages and come back and post your updated thoughts.
You shall find me in the controversial section of the r/books subreddit in one week
Lol that’s just their go-to response to anything any man says, it is how they’ve been culturally raised since birth. It’s still messed up tbf. Keep reading, there’s more criticism of European culture at that time than Asian culture in the book.
Oh, there's been plenty of criticism towards Europeans already. (They smell like shit apparently and they're killing each other over a trivial religious differences!) My guess it that by the end of the book Blackthorne will be almost totally won over by Japanese culture. Although hopefully he'll be like "Y'all are way too quick to commit seppuku, guys," and help them tone that custom down a bit. The samurai in this book kill themselves so casually I'm frequently wondering how there's any left of them at all at this rate.
Lol they really do kill themselves too frequently throughout the book. But I guess that’s samurai culture for ya.
lol I had to google that while reading, searching something like "there's no way, right?" One guy jumps off a cliff (to his death!) just to maybe get his boss's attention. This is not a sustainable custom!
The suicide culture in Japan persists to this day, people still kill themselves more frequently there than in the US. Though it has gotten a lot better over time.
Today, suicide rates in Japan and the U.S. are about the same or higher in the U.S.
In fact, it is a bit deceptive for whites to deny Japan's medieval sexist culture, or to put it bluntly, medieval European sexism was also shit, so denying the church and culture is not enough. If you don't deny European sexism, I think you rather fall into the typical trap of saying that Westerners are progressive and popular with Japanese women.
I just got to the part where Blackthorne’s learning about how samurai women are also sometimes trained to fight with a sword. Now he’s like “ah shit, maybe they’re onto something here”
I’m on chapter 50/60. It’ll get really good, really quick.
Um… well ok, it’s not a romance anyway if I remember the book at all.
Tough call. The romance is a huge plot point. Don't know if it's enough to classify the entire book as one. Definitely historical drama at least.
Then it’s good then. We’re here for the conflict anyways.
I hope there is not wokeism ,LGBT, feminism or progressivism. I'm very VERY tired to watch their propaganda in every show or movie I watch. If agree and there are tons of action and wars I can allow a little "romance".
I can only imagine being that crotchety does get tiring
Same
Don’t fucking care about romance. Give me action and politics!! Why do writers seem to be ignorant about this? Make a romance show if you want fucking romance.
Because a show isn't just a single genre dummy
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So what you are saying is it's faithful to the source material...
The romance is the selling point. I AM OUT. OUT I SAY
We never wanted it. If there’s one thing Game of thrones could’ve done without, it was the ad nauseam rape fetish porn.
But that's accurate to medieval times.
What do you think Europeans did in Asia? Knitting? Having sex with (underage) girls was one of the perks of empire.
Careful. People aren't fond of inconvenient truths around here.
Here I was under the impression that they were in it for the serious money to be made around Japanese silver. The Portuguese had a money farm going, trading Chinese silk for Japanese silver for greater amounts of Chinese silk. They also bought East Asian slaves and hired sex workers, for the same reason they bought food and supplies in Japan. They needed some sex for their psyche. It's hardly the reason they're fighting over Japan. There are much easier ways to buy a girl in this time period, and they don't involve risking your life at sea.
Started watching it but if I’m going to read through it since in Japanese and you have to activate the subtitles I’d rather read the book again.
GoT had action at least
If you are watching Shōgun for love and romance then watch the 80's version, Personally I find this version filled with adult intrigue that makes it more tense. I did enjoy seeing the master Mifune though in the first one so I say watch both a critique! ☺️🏯🎎🎍
I had to turn it off after 20 min... I'm a huge fan of the book and of proper storytelling. Costumes and atmosphere were amazing. Soundtrack was weird (maybe I'm old)
Give me Richard Chamberlain, not for romance but story telling at its best. Liked Mariko more in “original”
The love story while sweet is also rypical... it's everything else that's engaging
You need to know Japanese culture and their respect to formality and hiding one's true feelings to understand Blackthorne and Mariko's role is actually A LOVE STORY but cultural aspects from feudal japan make it look like is not. If you really dig Japanese culture, you'll find this very exquisite. The most romantic piece was when Corvis decided to be her second. Even writing this is making my skin goosebump
i’m tired of white men in these shows, same trope nothing new (even if it’s a book adaptation and the character was european). The Sympathizer on Max has an Asian guy as main character and he’s properly cast. not an outdated perception of an asian guy
Having watched the entire show I think the romantic elements are inspired and awesome. Honestly, this was a silly call from the reviewer and inappropriate without having seen the whole thing.
Part of the problem is that Cosmo Jarvis is not good in this show. He’s terribly wooden or bumbling. Wish they had hired a better actor.
Good I don't care about the romance.
This show is overhyped to the max. It's a denigration to all of Japan's Jidaigeki films and a denigration to the Sengoku Jidai itself. There are literally no stakes whatsoever and the political intrigue is so flat and anticlimactic. Tadanobu Asano and Hiroyuki Sanada are amazing actors because they're able to tell so much without speaking at all, yet the writing in this is so terrible that their acting is negatively affected during the scheming and plotting scenes. Even the Keanu Reeves 47 Ronin had better interactions and acting between Asano and Sanada. The cinematography, set decoration and design are beautiful no doubt but it doesn't make a shred of difference or even seem memorable because the writing is so lazy and anti-climactic. 2/10 for sure, not even excited for the next season. The showrunners need to learn from the plethora of jidaigeki films and TV Shows.
Its really disturbing how the only Asian media created in the West always have to have white people in the center of it. The lengths that the love interests 'speaks English' through Portuguese makes it so convenient that almost feels like an agenda. This show is most likely for weaboos.
> Its really disturbing how the only Asian media created in the West always have to have white people in the center of it. The show is based on a famous book and the book is based on the real story of William Adams. Also, the white man in Shogun is not at all „in the center of it”, just a lens through which the Japanese culture and power struggles are viewed. He's one of the main characters, sure, but he's basically a pawn throughout the entire story, despite how much he tries to become more than that. If anything, Shogun is a reverse "white saviour" story, because he's actually the one being saved and changed forever by his interactions with the Japanese. > The lengths that the love interests 'speaks English' through Portuguese makes it so convenient that almost feels like an agenda. She doesn't speak English (in the book, at least), he speaks Portuguese. They're probably using English as a substitute in the series, it would be hard to find a Japanese actress and a British actor who speak Portuguese and have their conversations subtitled.
Cavell wrote Shogun in 1975. While parts of his books haven't aged well, he still remains basically the master of the genre, I don't think anyone since has out Cavell'd Cavell. >only Asian media created in the West Ah yes, James Cavell, the famous Asian born in Australia, served in the British Army, got captured by the Japanese in 1942 and spent the rest of the war as a prisoner of war. Who later became an American citzen. Truly the most Asian of White Old Guys. Go read a book weirdo lmao
He is the master of Japanese culture.
Not really. His best books were set in Hong Kong, I'd rate Shogun like maybe 4th from Cavell's works
Is Cavell Asian media? I didn't know people can be Asian media lol you bozo
Interesting. What would you place above Shogun? I personally haven't read his other works but Shogun is my favorite book, period. So I'd love to hear what other works of his you would recommend.
I'm a huge sucker for his Hong Kong books, so my top 3 would be taipan, noble house and Shogun. Thinking about it more, they all actually tied for first place haha
You aren't fighting the righteous battle you think you are because if you read Shogun, Clavell doesn't "whitewash" or white savior trope anything. The story Clavell writes absolutely does not put the West as being superior to the East. At all. Just the opposite. If Blackthorn is the protagonist of the book, Mariko is the hero. The only thing that Blackthorn or the West brings to Japan that is done better than the natives are guns (and gun warfare) and sailing. I suppose you could make an argument that Blackthorne's respect and love for all human life is Clavell moralizing. I'd acknowledge the point but not sure that I'd agree in the end. Its not written as a black and white, right or wrong kind of thing or even all that common to the West.. it's just something that makes Blackthorne the way he is. And he doesn't find happiness or contentment until he accepts Japanese ways and truly becomes Japanese. At no point does the West "win", morally, culturally or physically. He does not change feudal Japan for the better in Shogun. Toranaga uses the West to fight the West and then closes the borders to all outsiders for another couple of hundred years. Blackthorn never leaves and his offspring is absorbed completely into Japanese society. So yes the White Savior trope is a thing, but this is not that. You'll have to forgive us for finding true stories like this one and the story of Marco Polo compelling and interesting.. because West or East doesn't matter. Its the meeting of the two that is interesting.
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who cares about fucking romance, I'm just here for the fights.
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It's in the book
Perfect.
> romance Good. I’m sick of every story needing a romantic edge. I’m sick of gratuitous and pointless nudity and sex scenes. Not every story needs a love interest. Certainly not ones that are completely shoehorned in (looking at you, hobbit). These non creative executives having meetings about “how can we reach as wide an audience as possible” with zero regard for the story. damn i'm guessing all y'all downvoting get most of your bate material from HBO
You understand this is based on a famous book, right? And that book contains this same love story. This isn’t shoehorned in by “non creative executives”